AD Presents: Infinite Damage and Hit Points [Archive] - Wizards Community

AD Presents: Infinite Damage and Hit Points [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AncientDragon
10-16-07, 09:13 AM OK, let's have something iniìfinte (+ or -).
We're Wozard 1/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 5/Fochlucan Lyrist 10 with Leadership and Precocius apprentice. Our fellower is a Sorcerer 5/Void Disciple 12.
We need a lot of money. Let's cast wall of salt three or four times and sell the salt. We should gain 15/20 billion gp. *
Let's buy as much "Polymorph any object" scrolls we can.
Go in our mansion.
Cast in the mansion a "Consumptive field greater" then make it permanent.
Take in the mansion many rocks and a Mantle of Charisma +6
Cast polymorph any object on a rock and make it become a Rakshasa.
Cast Charme on Monsters on the Rakshasa and ask him to take the mantle of charisma, use polymorph any object by one of our scrolls on a rock to make it a Rakshasa, then to cast on it Charme on Monsters and ask him to use a scroll of polymorph to shapechange the rakshasa n°1 (the one is giving the order) into a bat. The last order gaven by the rakshasa n°1 is to do the same things he does.
Now it will be polymorphed into a bat and then he dies into our consumptive field, giving us a +2 bonus unnamed to str.
Rakshasa n°2 will do the same thing: take the mantle, use polymorph any object by one of our scrolls on a rock to make it a Rakshasa, then to cast on it Charme on Monsters etc.
And so on, infinitely.
We only have, once a month, to came in our mansion and take there polymorph any object scrolls and rocks.
The fellower will help us because now we have infinite str, and the first time we'll passa a level, he will use void release to give us the possibility to use our str modifier rather then con to determine how much hp we'll get.
So, infinite hp.
Furthermore, our next level will be one level of wizard and we will use void releae to use our str rather than our cha and gain infinites bonus spells.
Maybe this last effect will disappear when the effect of void release disappear, I don't know.

Something about that:
Q:The rakshasa will not do something that will kill him, like saying to a rackshasa to turn him into a bat!
A: Well, first he has as intellingence as a rock, then he couldn't understand this, and furthermore, if he doesn't know the existence of the consumptive field he won't know that become a bat will kill him

Q: Doing all this permanence, you'll lose a lot of XP! You'll become a first-level character
A: Each time we should use permanence, use this:
Buy a candle of invocation and use it for a gate. Summon a solar. Ask him to use his wish to simulate a spell for you: permanence. He will lose XP but... Well, is not my problem ^^''

Q: What if you won't find a void disciple as follower?
A:Whe really don't need the void disciple. becaouse we gain infinite d8 temporal hp.

AD

*: Thanks to Elrick Nuradil for this trick

I editet this post. The original one was here:
Someone says this is to post on TO board. here you are.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well girallon's blessing says:

[...]the creature originals arms (if any) are its primary arms and new limbs are its secondary limbs[...]

Then I have two primary arms and two secondary arms. If I fight with two weapons, I'd not gain penalities, if I keep weapons in my primary hands, right?
If I use my secondary arms to clasp a two-handed weapon with one primary-arm and one secondary-arm, I still don't gain penalities from two weapons fightin'?
And another question: can I cast more times girallon's blessing on me, and make it permanents two or three times? Should I get, in this case, two or three permanents secondary arms? What is the limit? How'd I threat this use of girallon's blessing combined whit two weapon fighting and two-handed weapons?
Thanks...
AncientDragon
10-16-07, 02:52 PM Well? There are not FAQs, erratas, or simply opinions on this?
CrimsonDeath
10-16-07, 03:04 PM Well? There are not FAQs, erratas, or simply opinions on this?

Give it some time. This is the first time I spotted your post (since it's the first time I've been on the boards today), and it's not like it was falling off the front page or anything. Besides, not everyone here is in the same time zone.

(But to answer your question, no, I have no clue. Interesting idea, though.)
AncientDragon
10-16-07, 03:18 PM Oh, I have an interesting idea too. Wich includes many, many arms, weapons, and warblade levels. Obviusly, a lot of damage too lol

EDIT: Yeah, if this friggin things is okay, i could have about 100 pair of arms, and use blend arms to gain +400 to str, so, whit a two handed weapon, +800 to dmg... Oh, I'm not able to continuo. It's horrible what I could do.

No, sariusly, it could be funny. I hope this thing will work.
AncientDragon
10-16-07, 04:52 PM It simple: remember the spell "wall of salt"?
This spell from "Sandstorm" is a huge money maker if my calculations are correct. Anyone correct me if I´m wrong.

At caster lvl 7, you can create 7 5ft salt cubes for a total of 875 cubic feet

times 12x12x12 cubic inches, thats 1 512 000 cubic inches

times 2,54x2,54x2,54 cubic centimeters, thats 24 777 240.77 cubic centimeters

times 2.16 g/cm3, salts density, that´s 53 518 840.06 grams

divided by 1k, that´s 53 518.84006 kilograms

times 2.2 pounds, it´s 117 741.4481 pounds

"Table 7-3: Trade Goods" of the "PHB" says a pound of salt is worth 5gp so:

117 741.4481 pounds of salt, times 5gp a pound= 588 707.2407 GP per casting!!!!!
Assuming that we cast it only by scrolls, we can easily have infinate gp, simply because a wall of salt's scroll cost fewer than what you earn from selling salt.
This could be great, but I think greater.
If a 20th wizard uses his infinate gp to buy infinates scrolls of "permanence", infinate scrolls of "Girallon's blessing" and just one scroll of "Fuse arms"... What do you think should happen?
Well, our wizard can have infinates arms casting infinate times girallon's blessing, then make them permanents. Now he only have to use fuse arms to fuse his infinates arms and gain an infinate*4 bonus to strenght.
Obvius, now he can add his infinate str bonus to a normal longsword and do infinate damage. What do you say of this?

P.S. I really like the word "infinate", don't you?
Khadmus
10-16-07, 05:11 PM Why would anybody sell a scroll of wall of salt?
Callix
10-16-07, 05:19 PM Wall of Salt, like Wall of Iron, is one of those absurd spells that is obviously worth more than the DMG prices that level of spell. They break the economy of the game no end.

On the TWF stuff, you take penalties for fighting with multiple weapons on top of primary/secondary hand issues. As an example, if you wielded two longswords in your primary hands, you would take two-weapon fighting penalties (-2/-2 with TWF feat), but not the -2/-2 for having a non-light weapon in the off-hand, since no weapon is in your off-hand. So in the greatsword case, you would be able to dual-wield them, at a -2/-2 penalty if you have TWF, or a -4/-4 if you don't (no off-hand weapon means no -4 to off hand). It's still a good trick, but not quite as good as you thought. And selling Walls is old. I know. I got all excited when I found how much Wall of Iron and Fabricate could sell for, then found that it was around for years. Not to say it's not worth finding. Keep looking!
AncientDragon
10-17-07, 01:19 AM Oh yeah, wallof salt is a trick I saw and I quote in this thread only to optimize its use. I saw your post in that thread too.
But so? Does the infinate dmg combo works? I didn't understand Kadmus post.

Yours,
AD
P.S. Thank, Callix, for saying that is a good think keep lookin' ;)
Callix
10-17-07, 04:25 AM On the +infinite arms? No. You're already under the effect of a Girralon's Blessing; its effects have been subsumed by Fuse Arms. Additional Girralon's Blessings won't stack, and will only produce extra arms if the caster level is high enough to allow them. Polymorphing into a Medusa (or if you're feeling adventurous and have a very, very high CL, a Hecatonchieres), then getting GB and Fuse Arms gives you a very nice Strength bonus, but multiple GB's won't stack.
AncientDragon
10-17-07, 11:45 AM Crap. Doesn't thay stack even if I fuse addictional arms and THEN cast another girallon blessing?

If not, why they don't? Remember whe are not using savage species version but Spells compendium version.
CrimsonDeath
10-17-07, 03:22 PM Polymorphing into a Medusa
I think maybe you mean a Marilith. I'm pretty sure Medusas have the normal number of arms.

Crap. Doesn't thay stack even if I fuse addictional arms and THEN cast another girallon blessing?

If not, why they don't? Remember whe are not using savage species version but Spells compendium version.

They don't stack because you're already under the effects of a Girallon's Blessing. The same spell won't stack with itself. It's the same reason spamming Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't completely devastate an enemy's Strength.
AncientDragon
10-17-07, 03:31 PM What about use a cheater of mystra to use girallon blessing as supernatural ability? Does supernatural abilitis stack?
If not... Well.. What could I do... ideas? There is no way to make a spell stack with itself? Even if the spell is permanent? Or supernatural? No feats, no nothing?
Callix
10-17-07, 05:07 PM Stacking rules are fundamental to game balance. Check out psly4mne's World Record Damage thread, where the hardest part was calculating how much damage it actually did (google "multiple dirty tricks for insane synergy"), which is the clearest exposition of the stacking rules I've ever seen. This trick violates Rule 2: Same Effect, Same Target, Different Strengths -> overlap (stronger works, weaker is suppressed). Supernatural Spell won't help. Even the Cheater of Mystra or the Twice Betrayer of Shar can't override these rules; Pun-Pun himself can't get the same effect to stack with itself when it doesn't explicitly say it does.

There is a trick using the Grasping Tentacle grafts and Fuse Arms over in the Hulking Hurler thread, but there is no way to avoid the rule that a spell with a duration (other than Instantaneous) does not stack with itself. This rule is fundamental to game balance, and the developers get around it by constructing spells that do stack, rather than ways to get existing spells to stack.
AncientDragon
10-18-07, 01:16 AM Ok... But what is this graspling tentacle trick? How dhoes it works? Or where is written...
Callix
10-18-07, 06:49 AM The Hulking Hurler Thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D142565) is long, and contains many sidetracks, but also most of TO's collective non-looped efforts at increasing strength, both post- and pre-epic. Most tricks come up a couple of times, as new people rediscover them, and can't find them in 23 pages of thread.

It might seem insanely big, but check out the Pun-Pun thread sometime. It's close to its 100th page. I think Khan earned a permanent prune immunity on *that* particular thread.
AncientDragon
10-18-07, 04:22 PM Ok I think I will not even try to understand something ^^''
Well... Another idea (I don't know if I'm right by posting it here):
I am a Wizard 10/Master trasmogrifist (the one of complete arcane, is this his name?) 10
I cast Polymorph any object to shift into a Colossal Iron Construct, then I use infinate variety to gain the 100 arms (only 100 right?) of an Hecatonchieres. Now, I have 102 arms, +4 by girallon blessing that I cast. 106.
I use fuse arms and remain with only 2 arms, but each whit a bonus of 208 to str, +80 (the stof an Iron colossus), +5 insight, by the str tome and +6 by a giant force belt. 299 is a +144 bonus on attacks and damages, more 71 by the Hecatonchieres bonus for melee: 215. We still have two arms, so we use our bonus multiplied per 2, and use our power attack feat while charging our enemy using leap attack and removing 10 points of TxC: +450 at dmg, +205 at attack.

But... This is BETTER:
Another figgin idea is to became an Iron Colossus with 102 arms (100 are from hecatonchieres) and use polymorph any object on our foe and polymorph him in sometin' of Huge size, then do 106 +71 attacks, doing each 1d6+20 dmg, more str bonus of the colossus (+35), more str bonus by tome and belt, equal to... 11239 dmgs..: I think it works, now. What do you say?
EjoThims
10-18-07, 05:00 PM then I use infinate variety to gain the 100 arms (only 100 right?) of an Hecatonchieres

That doesn't work.

The 100 arms of a Heca are not NA, a movement mode, one natural attack, an extraordinary special attack, an extraordinary special quality, or a physical ability score.

These are the only things that Master Transmorgrifist's Infinite Variety can grant.

And even if it did work, it would set your arms at 100, not give 100 more, and Girallon's blessing gives you TWO extra arms (never any more or less).
Callix
10-18-07, 05:06 PM Unfortunately, the Heca doesn't have any natural attacks; it uses dozens of swords. There's nothing for Infinite Variety to steal. Good idea with Master Transmogrifist, but it doesn't work on the Hecatonchieres. Also, how are you getting CL 52 to be able to take Hecatonchieres shape? Infinite Variety requires you to be able to take that creature's shape, and even Shapechange caps out at 25 HD. Not that a Master Transmogrifist could cast Shapechange, since he loses 4 caster levels. Wiz16 casting = no 9th level spells.

EDIT: @EjoThims: The example in the book is giving a dragon a giant octopus' eight tentacle attacks. You can give all the attacks of one form. Unfortunately, 1. Heca's have no natural attacks, and 2. Heca's are illegal favored shapes and not shape-assumable without epic magic, which everyone knows is broken.
EjoThims
10-18-07, 08:01 PM EDIT: @EjoThims: The example in the book is giving a dragon a giant octopus' eight tentacle attacks. You can give all the attacks of one form. Unfortunately, 1. Heca's have no natural attacks, and 2. Heca's are illegal favored shapes and not shape-assumable without epic magic, which everyone knows is broken.

You can give one type of natural attack from a form, but you gain as many of that type of attack as the form has.
AncientDragon
10-19-07, 01:23 PM We're A Cleric 3/Sorcerer 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Fochlucan Lyrist 4
Cast consumptive field grater, cast permanence.
Take 10 000 rocks from the ground. You know, little stupid rocks.
Put them into the consumptive field, then use shapechange to become a Gurgling Globe (that one from epic levels handbook).
Now, we can use our 24 eye to use 24 times per round one spell from its list. We use, 24 times per round, polymorph any object, to polymorph a stone into a bat. The bat (1 hp) will have to attempt a Will save or die, and make us gain an UNNAMED (!!!!) +2 bonus to str. I hope at leat 9999 bats will die, givin'us a +19998 bonus to str.
In this manner we can easily have infinite str and do infinite damage... Is now right?
AncientDragon
10-19-07, 01:25 PM Oh, yes, I forgot to say that we gain 9999d8 temporal hit points.
EjoThims
10-19-07, 05:49 PM Assuming you can get the CL to take that form, this would be a way to get arbitrarily high Str and HP, but without automation isn't doesn't get your infinite.
AncientDragon
10-19-07, 05:52 PM I can, becouse of our 19 CL. The Globe has only 27 HD. But its ok. we won't need to shapechange.
OK, let's have something iniìfinte (+ or -).
We're Wozard 1/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 5/Fochlucan Lyrist 10 with Leadership and Precocius apprentice. Our fellower is a Sorcerer 5/Void Disciple 12.
We need a lot of money. Let's cast wall of salt three or four times and sell the salt. We should gain 15/20 billion gp. *
Let's buy as much "Polymorph any object" scrolls we can.
Go in our mansion.
Cast in the mansion a "Consumptive field greater" then make it permanent.
Take in the mansion many rocks and a Mantle of Charisma +6
Cast polymorph any object on a rock and make it become a Rakshasa.
Cast Charme on Monsters on the Rakshasa and ask him to take the mantle of charisma, use polymorph any object by one of our scrolls on a rock to make it a Rakshasa, then to cast on it Charme on Monsters and ask him to use a scroll of polymorph to shapechange the rakshasa n°1 (the one is giving the order) into a bat. The last order gaven by the rakshasa n°1 is to do the same things he does.
Now it will be polymorphed into a bat and then he dies into our consumptive field, giving us a +2 bonus unnamed to str.
Rakshasa n°2 will do the same thing: take the mantle, use polymorph any object by one of our scrolls on a rock to make it a Rakshasa, then to cast on it Charme on Monsters etc.
And so on, infinitely.
We only have, once a month, to came in our mansion and take there polymorph any object scrolls and rocks.
The fellower will help us because now we have infinite str, and the first time we'll passa a level, he will use void release to give us the possibility to use our str modifier rather then con to determine how much hp we'll get.
So, infinite hp.
Furthermore, our next level will be one level of wizard and we will use void releae to use our str rather than our cha and gain infinites bonus spells.
Maybe this last effect will disappear when the effect of void release disappear, I don't know.

Something about that:
Q:The rakshasa will not do something that will kill him, like saying to a rackshasa to turn him into a bat!
A: Well, first he has as intellingence as a rock, then he couldn't understand this, and furthermore, if he doesn't know the existence of the consumptive field he won't know that become a bat will kill him

Q: Doing all this permanence, you'll lose a lot of XP! You'll become a first-level character
A: Each time we should use permanence, use this:
Buy a candle of invocation and use it for a gate. Summon a solar. Ask him to use his wish to simulate a spell for you: permanence. He will lose XP but... Well, is not my problem ^^''

Q: What if you won't find a void disciple as follower?
A:Whe really don't need the void disciple. becaouse we gain infinite d8 temporal hp.

AD

*: Thanks to Elrick Nuradil for this trick
Senevri
10-20-07, 07:04 PM Hm. An Epic Pseudonatural creature has a number of tentacles bound to it's HD. any way to access that?
EjoThims
10-20-07, 09:20 PM We only have, once a month, to came in our mansion and take there polymorph any object scrolls and rocks.

That still requires input once a month. Once your supply of scrolls runs out after your last visit, you stop getting benefits. This is, once more, only arbitrarily high, not infinite.
AncientDragon
10-21-07, 03:54 AM That still requires input once a month. Once your supply of scrolls runs out after your last visit, you stop getting benefits. This is, once more, only arbitrarily high, not infinite.

Ok. We will do this:
Remember our fellower? Well, he'll be at home and pass his time by using one candle of invocation to summon a solar, then ask him to use his wish to have a ring of three wishes.
Now, he uses his three wishes:
1)He ask a polymorph any object scroll
2)He ask a polymorph any object scroll
3)He ask a candle of invocation

So we have do to nothing but laugh.

Hm. An Epic Pseudonatural creature has a number of tentacles bound to it's HD. any way to access that?
If you read the last (or the first) message, you will see that I don't shapechange into a globe in the last version of my build ;)

Furthermore, I think we can do this friggin thing at 13 level, by using a LoP's dirty trick.
Sorcerer 1/Beholder Mage 4/Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 6. Yuppy
EjoThims
10-21-07, 04:42 AM Ok. We will do this:
Remember our fellower? Well, he'll be at home and pass his time

And he eventually runs out of time and the loop ends. Look at the perpetual damage machine to get an idea of how to actually set up an infinite loop instead of just an arbitrarily high one.
AncientDragon
10-21-07, 05:55 AM Ok I surround XD
For me having no infinite - but arbitrarily higt - str, is enaught :P

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AncientDragon 10-16-07, 09:13 AM	OK, let's have something iniìfinte (+ or -). We're Wozard 1/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 5/Fochlucan Lyrist 10 with Leadership and Precocius apprentice. Our fellower is a Sorcerer 5/Void Disciple 12. We need a lot of money. Let's cast wall of salt three or four times and sell the salt. We should gain 15/20 billion gp. * Let's buy as much "Polymorph any object" scrolls we can. Go in our mansion. Cast in the mansion a "Consumptive field greater" then make it permanent. Take in the mansion many rocks and a Mantle of Charisma +6 Cast polymorph any object on a rock and make it become a Rakshasa. Cast Charme on Monsters on the Rakshasa and ask him to take the mantle of charisma, use polymorph any object by one of our scrolls on a rock to make it a Rakshasa, then to cast on it Charme on Monsters and ask him to use a scroll of polymorph to shapechange the rakshasa n°1 (the one is giving the order) into a bat. The last order gaven by the rakshasa n°1 is to do the same things he does. Now it will be polymorphed into a bat and then he dies into our consumptive field, giving us a +2 bonus unnamed to str. Rakshasa n°2 will do the same thing: take the mantle, use polymorph any object by one of our scrolls on a rock to make it a Rakshasa, then to cast on it Charme on Monsters etc. And so on, infinitely. We only have, once a month, to came in our mansion and take there polymorph any object scrolls and rocks. The fellower will help us because now we have infinite str, and the first time we'll passa a level, he will use void release to give us the possibility to use our str modifier rather then con to determine how much hp we'll get. So, infinite hp. Furthermore, our next level will be one level of wizard and we will use void releae to use our str rather than our cha and gain infinites bonus spells. Maybe this last effect will disappear when the effect of void release disappear, I don't know. Something about that: Q:The rakshasa will not do something that will kill him, like saying to a rackshasa to turn him into a bat! A: Well, first he has as intellingence as a rock, then he couldn't understand this, and furthermore, if he doesn't know the existence of the consumptive field he won't know that become a bat will kill him Q: Doing all this permanence, you'll lose a lot of XP! You'll become a first-level character A: Each time we should use permanence, use this: Buy a candle of invocation and use it for a gate. Summon a solar. Ask him to use his wish to simulate a spell for you: permanence. He will lose XP but... Well, is not my problem ^^'' Q: What if you won't find a void disciple as follower? A:Whe really don't need the void disciple. becaouse we gain infinite d8 temporal hp. AD *: Thanks to Elrick Nuradil for this trick I editet this post. The original one was here: Someone says this is to post on TO board. here you are. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well girallon's blessing says: [...]the creature originals arms (if any) are its primary arms and new limbs are its secondary limbs[...] Then I have two primary arms and two secondary arms. If I fight with two weapons, I'd not gain penalities, if I keep weapons in my primary hands, right? If I use my secondary arms to clasp a two-handed weapon with one primary-arm and one secondary-arm, I still don't gain penalities from two weapons fightin'? And another question: can I cast more times girallon's blessing on me, and make it permanents two or three times? Should I get, in this case, two or three permanents secondary arms? What is the limit? How'd I threat this use of girallon's blessing combined whit two weapon fighting and two-handed weapons? Thanks...
AncientDragon 10-16-07, 02:52 PM	Well? There are not FAQs, erratas, or simply opinions on this?
CrimsonDeath 10-16-07, 03:04 PM	Well? There are not FAQs, erratas, or simply opinions on this? Give it some time. This is the first time I spotted your post (since it's the first time I've been on the boards today), and it's not like it was falling off the front page or anything. Besides, not everyone here is in the same time zone. (But to answer your question, no, I have no clue. Interesting idea, though.)
AncientDragon 10-16-07, 03:18 PM	Oh, I have an interesting idea too. Wich includes many, many arms, weapons, and warblade levels. Obviusly, a lot of damage too lol EDIT: Yeah, if this friggin things is okay, i could have about 100 pair of arms, and use blend arms to gain +400 to str, so, whit a two handed weapon, +800 to dmg... Oh, I'm not able to continuo. It's horrible what I could do. No, sariusly, it could be funny. I hope this thing will work.
AncientDragon 10-16-07, 04:52 PM	It simple: remember the spell "wall of salt"? This spell from "Sandstorm" is a huge money maker if my calculations are correct. Anyone correct me if I´m wrong. At caster lvl 7, you can create 7 5ft salt cubes for a total of 875 cubic feet times 12x12x12 cubic inches, thats 1 512 000 cubic inches times 2,54x2,54x2,54 cubic centimeters, thats 24 777 240.77 cubic centimeters times 2.16 g/cm3, salts density, that´s 53 518 840.06 grams divided by 1k, that´s 53 518.84006 kilograms times 2.2 pounds, it´s 117 741.4481 pounds "Table 7-3: Trade Goods" of the "PHB" says a pound of salt is worth 5gp so: 117 741.4481 pounds of salt, times 5gp a pound= 588 707.2407 GP per casting!!!!! Assuming that we cast it only by scrolls, we can easily have infinate gp, simply because a wall of salt's scroll cost fewer than what you earn from selling salt. This could be great, but I think greater. If a 20th wizard uses his infinate gp to buy infinates scrolls of "permanence", infinate scrolls of "Girallon's blessing" and just one scroll of "Fuse arms"... What do you think should happen? Well, our wizard can have infinates arms casting infinate times girallon's blessing, then make them permanents. Now he only have to use fuse arms to fuse his infinates arms and gain an infinate*4 bonus to strenght. Obvius, now he can add his infinate str bonus to a normal longsword and do infinate damage. What do you say of this? P.S. I really like the word "infinate", don't you?
Khadmus 10-16-07, 05:11 PM	Why would anybody sell a scroll of wall of salt?
Callix 10-16-07, 05:19 PM	Wall of Salt, like Wall of Iron, is one of those absurd spells that is obviously worth more than the DMG prices that level of spell. They break the economy of the game no end. On the TWF stuff, you take penalties for fighting with multiple weapons on top of primary/secondary hand issues. As an example, if you wielded two longswords in your primary hands, you would take two-weapon fighting penalties (-2/-2 with TWF feat), but not the -2/-2 for having a non-light weapon in the off-hand, since no weapon is in your off-hand. So in the greatsword case, you would be able to dual-wield them, at a -2/-2 penalty if you have TWF, or a -4/-4 if you don't (no off-hand weapon means no -4 to off hand). It's still a good trick, but not quite as good as you thought. And selling Walls is old. I know. I got all excited when I found how much Wall of Iron and Fabricate could sell for, then found that it was around for years. Not to say it's not worth finding. Keep looking!
AncientDragon 10-17-07, 01:19 AM	Oh yeah, wallof salt is a trick I saw and I quote in this thread only to optimize its use. I saw your post in that thread too. But so? Does the infinate dmg combo works? I didn't understand Kadmus post. Yours, AD P.S. Thank, Callix, for saying that is a good think keep lookin' ;)
Callix 10-17-07, 04:25 AM	On the +infinite arms? No. You're already under the effect of a Girralon's Blessing; its effects have been subsumed by Fuse Arms. Additional Girralon's Blessings won't stack, and will only produce extra arms if the caster level is high enough to allow them. Polymorphing into a Medusa (or if you're feeling adventurous and have a very, very high CL, a Hecatonchieres), then getting GB and Fuse Arms gives you a very nice Strength bonus, but multiple GB's won't stack.
AncientDragon 10-17-07, 11:45 AM	Crap. Doesn't thay stack even if I fuse addictional arms and THEN cast another girallon blessing? If not, why they don't? Remember whe are not using savage species version but Spells compendium version.
CrimsonDeath 10-17-07, 03:22 PM	Polymorphing into a Medusa I think maybe you mean a Marilith. I'm pretty sure Medusas have the normal number of arms. Crap. Doesn't thay stack even if I fuse addictional arms and THEN cast another girallon blessing? If not, why they don't? Remember whe are not using savage species version but Spells compendium version. They don't stack because you're already under the effects of a Girallon's Blessing. The same spell won't stack with itself. It's the same reason spamming Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't completely devastate an enemy's Strength.
AncientDragon 10-17-07, 03:31 PM	What about use a cheater of mystra to use girallon blessing as supernatural ability? Does supernatural abilitis stack? If not... Well.. What could I do... ideas? There is no way to make a spell stack with itself? Even if the spell is permanent? Or supernatural? No feats, no nothing?
Callix 10-17-07, 05:07 PM	Stacking rules are fundamental to game balance. Check out psly4mne's World Record Damage thread, where the hardest part was calculating how much damage it actually did (google "multiple dirty tricks for insane synergy"), which is the clearest exposition of the stacking rules I've ever seen. This trick violates Rule 2: Same Effect, Same Target, Different Strengths -> overlap (stronger works, weaker is suppressed). Supernatural Spell won't help. Even the Cheater of Mystra or the Twice Betrayer of Shar can't override these rules; Pun-Pun himself can't get the same effect to stack with itself when it doesn't explicitly say it does. There is a trick using the Grasping Tentacle grafts and Fuse Arms over in the Hulking Hurler thread, but there is no way to avoid the rule that a spell with a duration (other than Instantaneous) does not stack with itself. This rule is fundamental to game balance, and the developers get around it by constructing spells that do stack, rather than ways to get existing spells to stack.
AncientDragon 10-18-07, 01:16 AM	Ok... But what is this graspling tentacle trick? How dhoes it works? Or where is written...
Callix 10-18-07, 06:49 AM	The Hulking Hurler Thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D142565) is long, and contains many sidetracks, but also most of TO's collective non-looped efforts at increasing strength, both post- and pre-epic. Most tricks come up a couple of times, as new people rediscover them, and can't find them in 23 pages of thread. It might seem insanely big, but check out the Pun-Pun thread sometime. It's close to its 100th page. I think Khan earned a permanent prune immunity on that particular thread.
AncientDragon 10-18-07, 04:22 PM	Ok I think I will not even try to understand something ^^'' Well... Another idea (I don't know if I'm right by posting it here): I am a Wizard 10/Master trasmogrifist (the one of complete arcane, is this his name?) 10 I cast Polymorph any object to shift into a Colossal Iron Construct, then I use infinate variety to gain the 100 arms (only 100 right?) of an Hecatonchieres. Now, I have 102 arms, +4 by girallon blessing that I cast. 106. I use fuse arms and remain with only 2 arms, but each whit a bonus of 208 to str, +80 (the stof an Iron colossus), +5 insight, by the str tome and +6 by a giant force belt. 299 is a +144 bonus on attacks and damages, more 71 by the Hecatonchieres bonus for melee: 215. We still have two arms, so we use our bonus multiplied per 2, and use our power attack feat while charging our enemy using leap attack and removing 10 points of TxC: +450 at dmg, +205 at attack. But... This is BETTER: Another figgin idea is to became an Iron Colossus with 102 arms (100 are from hecatonchieres) and use polymorph any object on our foe and polymorph him in sometin' of Huge size, then do 106 +71 attacks, doing each 1d6+20 dmg, more str bonus of the colossus (+35), more str bonus by tome and belt, equal to... 11239 dmgs..: I think it works, now. What do you say?
EjoThims 10-18-07, 05:00 PM	then I use infinate variety to gain the 100 arms (only 100 right?) of an Hecatonchieres That doesn't work. The 100 arms of a Heca are not NA, a movement mode, one natural attack, an extraordinary special attack, an extraordinary special quality, or a physical ability score. These are the only things that Master Transmorgrifist's Infinite Variety can grant. And even if it did work, it would set your arms at 100, not give 100 more, and Girallon's blessing gives you TWO extra arms (never any more or less).
Callix 10-18-07, 05:06 PM	Unfortunately, the Heca doesn't have any natural attacks; it uses dozens of swords. There's nothing for Infinite Variety to steal. Good idea with Master Transmogrifist, but it doesn't work on the Hecatonchieres. Also, how are you getting CL 52 to be able to take Hecatonchieres shape? Infinite Variety requires you to be able to take that creature's shape, and even Shapechange caps out at 25 HD. Not that a Master Transmogrifist could cast Shapechange, since he loses 4 caster levels. Wiz16 casting = no 9th level spells. EDIT: @EjoThims: The example in the book is giving a dragon a giant octopus' eight tentacle attacks. You can give all the attacks of one form. Unfortunately, 1. Heca's have no natural attacks, and 2. Heca's are illegal favored shapes and not shape-assumable without epic magic, which everyone knows is broken.
EjoThims 10-18-07, 08:01 PM	EDIT: @EjoThims: The example in the book is giving a dragon a giant octopus' eight tentacle attacks. You can give all the attacks of one form. Unfortunately, 1. Heca's have no natural attacks, and 2. Heca's are illegal favored shapes and not shape-assumable without epic magic, which everyone knows is broken. You can give one type of natural attack from a form, but you gain as many of that type of attack as the form has.
AncientDragon 10-19-07, 01:23 PM	We're A Cleric 3/Sorcerer 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Fochlucan Lyrist 4 Cast consumptive field grater, cast permanence. Take 10 000 rocks from the ground. You know, little stupid rocks. Put them into the consumptive field, then use shapechange to become a Gurgling Globe (that one from epic levels handbook). Now, we can use our 24 eye to use 24 times per round one spell from its list. We use, 24 times per round, polymorph any object, to polymorph a stone into a bat. The bat (1 hp) will have to attempt a Will save or die, and make us gain an UNNAMED (!!!!) +2 bonus to str. I hope at leat 9999 bats will die, givin'us a +19998 bonus to str. In this manner we can easily have infinite str and do infinite damage... Is now right?
AncientDragon 10-19-07, 01:25 PM	Oh, yes, I forgot to say that we gain 9999d8 temporal hit points.
EjoThims 10-19-07, 05:49 PM	Assuming you can get the CL to take that form, this would be a way to get arbitrarily high Str and HP, but without automation isn't doesn't get your infinite.
AncientDragon 10-19-07, 05:52 PM	I can, becouse of our 19 CL. The Globe has only 27 HD. But its ok. we won't need to shapechange. OK, let's have something iniìfinte (+ or -). We're Wozard 1/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 5/Fochlucan Lyrist 10 with Leadership and Precocius apprentice. Our fellower is a Sorcerer 5/Void Disciple 12. We need a lot of money. Let's cast wall of salt three or four times and sell the salt. We should gain 15/20 billion gp. * Let's buy as much "Polymorph any object" scrolls we can. Go in our mansion. Cast in the mansion a "Consumptive field greater" then make it permanent. Take in the mansion many rocks and a Mantle of Charisma +6 Cast polymorph any object on a rock and make it become a Rakshasa. Cast Charme on Monsters on the Rakshasa and ask him to take the mantle of charisma, use polymorph any object by one of our scrolls on a rock to make it a Rakshasa, then to cast on it Charme on Monsters and ask him to use a scroll of polymorph to shapechange the rakshasa n°1 (the one is giving the order) into a bat. The last order gaven by the rakshasa n°1 is to do the same things he does. Now it will be polymorphed into a bat and then he dies into our consumptive field, giving us a +2 bonus unnamed to str. Rakshasa n°2 will do the same thing: take the mantle, use polymorph any object by one of our scrolls on a rock to make it a Rakshasa, then to cast on it Charme on Monsters etc. And so on, infinitely. We only have, once a month, to came in our mansion and take there polymorph any object scrolls and rocks. The fellower will help us because now we have infinite str, and the first time we'll passa a level, he will use void release to give us the possibility to use our str modifier rather then con to determine how much hp we'll get. So, infinite hp. Furthermore, our next level will be one level of wizard and we will use void releae to use our str rather than our cha and gain infinites bonus spells. Maybe this last effect will disappear when the effect of void release disappear, I don't know. Something about that: Q:The rakshasa will not do something that will kill him, like saying to a rackshasa to turn him into a bat! A: Well, first he has as intellingence as a rock, then he couldn't understand this, and furthermore, if he doesn't know the existence of the consumptive field he won't know that become a bat will kill him Q: Doing all this permanence, you'll lose a lot of XP! You'll become a first-level character A: Each time we should use permanence, use this: Buy a candle of invocation and use it for a gate. Summon a solar. Ask him to use his wish to simulate a spell for you: permanence. He will lose XP but... Well, is not my problem ^^'' Q: What if you won't find a void disciple as follower? A:Whe really don't need the void disciple. becaouse we gain infinite d8 temporal hp. AD *: Thanks to Elrick Nuradil for this trick
Senevri 10-20-07, 07:04 PM	Hm. An Epic Pseudonatural creature has a number of tentacles bound to it's HD. any way to access that?
EjoThims 10-20-07, 09:20 PM	We only have, once a month, to came in our mansion and take there polymorph any object scrolls and rocks. That still requires input once a month. Once your supply of scrolls runs out after your last visit, you stop getting benefits. This is, once more, only arbitrarily high, not infinite.
AncientDragon 10-21-07, 03:54 AM	That still requires input once a month. Once your supply of scrolls runs out after your last visit, you stop getting benefits. This is, once more, only arbitrarily high, not infinite. Ok. We will do this: Remember our fellower? Well, he'll be at home and pass his time by using one candle of invocation to summon a solar, then ask him to use his wish to have a ring of three wishes. Now, he uses his three wishes: 1)He ask a polymorph any object scroll 2)He ask a polymorph any object scroll 3)He ask a candle of invocation So we have do to nothing but laugh. Hm. An Epic Pseudonatural creature has a number of tentacles bound to it's HD. any way to access that? If you read the last (or the first) message, you will see that I don't shapechange into a globe in the last version of my build ;) Furthermore, I think we can do this friggin thing at 13 level, by using a LoP's dirty trick. Sorcerer 1/Beholder Mage 4/Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 6. Yuppy
EjoThims 10-21-07, 04:42 AM	Ok. We will do this: Remember our fellower? Well, he'll be at home and pass his time And he eventually runs out of time and the loop ends. Look at the perpetual damage machine to get an idea of how to actually set up an infinite loop instead of just an arbitrarily high one.
AncientDragon 10-21-07, 05:55 AM	Ok I surround XD For me having no infinite - but arbitrarily higt - str, is enaught :P