Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Deadlion 07-04-07, 06:39 AM	Okay, guys, this is a place for us all to contribute and discuss ideas for alternative real-world timelines, a bit like "1001" thread but not, because I didn't put "1001" in the title ;) I'll start us off with a few of the more obvious ones ~ What if the Cold War had turned hot? ~ What if the Axis had won the Second World War? ~ What if the Roman Empire had never fallen? ~ What if the French had won at Waterloo? ~ What if the American War of Independence had never happened? ~ What if Carthage had conquered Rome in the Punic Wars? ~ What if the Norman invasion of 1066 had failed? ~ What if Greece had lost the battle of Marathon? ~ What if the US had never intervened in Vietnam?
Partisan 07-04-07, 05:58 PM	There are many books and movies that handle some of these themes quite well. try the book "Vaterland" for a crimestory in alternate germany in the 60's, the nazis won war. I guess to the cold war there are some post nuclear apocalyptic scenarios à la madmax or postman, there was also a film from the 90' or 80' where the soviets invided the states and some kids and patrick swayze fought as rebels and partisans against the soviet invaders. A friend of mine has a novel, can't remember the name, where roman empire had never fallen, and the legionaires are atill serving rome as an army and their rifles are called pilum.
Deadlion 07-05-07, 11:28 AM	Thanks for the response. You have any alternate history ideas of your own to contribute? :)
ryuspearhead 07-06-07, 04:09 PM	- what the native americans were samurai - what if guns were never invented - what if we mounted lions and wolves insted of horses - what if the dinosaurs never died off
i_am_some_guy 07-07-07, 07:10 PM	- what the native americans were samurai - what if guns were never invented - what if we mounted lions and wolves insted of horses - what if the dinosaurs never died off Native Americans "samurai" wouldn't be native americans... Guns never invented but all other tech was? Interesting... We can't ride lions and wolves, their bodies aren't suitable... which is why we ride horses If dinosaurs never died off we'd never be here. I ran one game years ago... was in AD&D 2nd Ed; Rome never fell. I had early steam power, breech-loading flintlock weapons (paper cartridges). Roman Army had become rifle-men and were actively trying to passify Africa. The players were Romans, members of the Charioteers, and up to this point magic hasn't existed. The Chariot Gunners fired the Puckle gun; which was mounted to the chariot. Each player had an NPC driver and they fought the Zulus.
ScS 07-08-07, 12:15 PM	Ah, but where are the dinosaurs, i_am_some_guy? That's the question. Had dinosaurs existed in Africa and the Middle East, then you’re undoubtedly right, humans probably would not have developed. But, what if they were isolated to an area like, say, the Americas? And, towards the others, there's not much of a reason that the Native Americans could not have developed a more advanced civilization. For example, the Chinese ran a massive exploration fleet commanded by a eunuch admiral. What if that fleet had headed to the Americas, rather than to Africa? They might have even set up some colonies to get rid of bothersome groups, such as nomads and Mongols. Perhaps they could have set up a civilization, which might have extended across the continent.
Shiftkitty 07-08-07, 07:12 PM	What if the British had decided to help the South during the US Civil War? There's a book called "1862" that deals with this "might have happened". I haven't read it, but it was an interesting idea.
OleOneEye 07-09-07, 01:41 AM	What if Athens was not stricken by plague in the Peloponnesian War? What if the U.S. stayed neutral in WWI? What if the U.S. accepted Stalin's offer for both sides to withdraw from post-war Germany? What if Frederick Barbarossa had not died en route to the Holy Land? What if Joan of Arc never existed? What if Frederick the Great was crushed by his many enemies? What if Central America had more sufficient mineral deposits? What if Columbus's first voyage was lost at sea? What if Vinland had become a flourishing colony? What if the Neanderthals had been able to successfully compete with modern man into the historical era? What if the horse never existed? What if Lee Harvey Oswald used a suitcase nuclear bomb instead of a rifle to assassinate Kennedy?
Shiftkitty 07-09-07, 10:23 AM	What if Hitler had successfully built the "New York Bomber"? What if the Burr Conspiracy had panned out? For that matter, what if the Gates Conspiracy had panned out?
i_am_some_guy 07-09-07, 12:02 PM	Ah, but where are the dinosaurs, i_am_some_guy? That's the question. Had dinosaurs existed in Africa and the Middle East, then you’re undoubtedly right, humans probably would not have developed. But, what if they were isolated to an area like, say, the Americas? It depends on how far from reality you want to go. The North American Continent didn't exist during the age of the dinosaurs. But, it would be an interesting concept, Folks from Europe make it to the New World only to discover it's filled with dinosaurs.... And, towards the others, there's not much of a reason that the Native Americans could not have developed a more advanced civilization. They would have given time. The cultures of the Americas were a bit behind the curve due to the fact that they were immigrants to the region.
Ranger REG 07-09-07, 04:41 PM	Native Americans "samurai" wouldn't be native americans... But what if they embrace a warrior culture similar to our Feudal Japan? Guns never invented but all other tech was? Interesting... Would be interesting considering gunpowder would pave the way for rocket science. If dinosaurs never died off we'd never be here. And that would be a bad thing because...? :P --card-carrying member of the anti-Humaniti cult.
i_am_some_guy 07-09-07, 05:15 PM	Quote: Originally Posted by i_am_some_guy Native Americans "samurai" wouldn't be native americans... But what if they embrace a warrior culture similar to our Feudal Japan? They did ;-) Would be interesting considering gunpowder would pave the way for rocket science. No gunpowder would dramatically change the way techonology evolved. What would we not have if there was no gunpowder... or what would come much later? Thing is... gunpowder is a pretty natural combination of elements. How would it not exist? Just some magical "that chemical combination doesn't work" or en element is missing or rare...
Partisan 07-09-07, 09:06 PM	What if the Neanderthals had been able to successfully compete with modern man into the historical era? ORCS!!!
Shiftkitty 07-10-07, 12:37 AM	Originally Posted by i_am_some_guy Native Americans "samurai" wouldn't be native americans... But what if they embrace a warrior culture similar to our Feudal Japan? They'd probably have wiped themselves out or at least significantly reduced their own numbers long before European settlers ever set foot on the continent. They weren't exactly these peaceful, happy neighbors. They were as bloodthirsty as anyone else.
ScS 07-10-07, 05:37 PM	True enough, but remember that an organized military demands a certain level of diplomacy. After all, you can't have a warrior culture if every samuria, knight and man jack is out to kill every other person. It might have developed in a wave - one tribe/language group subjugates the group next to them, builds up the conquered territory, and repeat ad infinitum until you have feudal kingdoms from Sea to shining sea. In such a scenario, the various fuedal families would turn their aggression against their lesser developed cousins. In regards to Neandrathals, its not well known that they were probably intellectually superior to early man. Their brains were supposedly bigger and better developed. The last theory I heard on the subject was that humans had better developed vocal organs, thus allowing them to have larger tribes, which meant they outnumbered their brainier, brawnier opponents.
i_am_some_guy 07-10-07, 05:44 PM	They'd probably have wiped themselves out or at least significantly reduced their own numbers long before European settlers ever set foot on the continent. They weren't exactly these peaceful, happy neighbors. They were as bloodthirsty as anyone else. Why do you say that? What is the key to the feudal japan Samurai? That gives you your answer. Native Americans were a warrior culture.
i_am_some_guy 07-10-07, 05:50 PM	In regards to Neandrathals, its not well known that they were probably intellectually superior to early man. Their brains were supposedly bigger and better developed. The last theory I heard on the subject was that humans had better developed vocal organs, thus allowing them to have larger tribes, which meant they outnumbered their brainier, brawnier opponents. There are a lot of reasons. Some current anthropoligcal believes are the nature of how they hunted. Current theory is that they were melee hunters that relied on ambush and tactics. They hunted in heavily forested areas and were perfectly suited to their enviornment. Cro Magnon were distance hunters and relied on speed. They were suited to open plains. As the enviornment changed and game moved the Neanderthal's habitat dwindled meaning they couldn't hunt and didn't adapt quickly enough. Some other theories is that they were out competed (i.e. exterminated) by the cro magnon tribes that moved into their areas. My theory is that the two intermingled and bred together and some of us have neanderthal ancestry....
OleOneEye 07-10-07, 10:14 PM	There are a lot of reasons. Some current anthropoligcal believes are the nature of how they hunted. Current theory is that they were melee hunters that relied on ambush and tactics. They hunted in heavily forested areas and were perfectly suited to their enviornment. Cro Magnon were distance hunters and relied on speed. They were suited to open plains. As the enviornment changed and game moved the Neanderthal's habitat dwindled meaning they couldn't hunt and didn't adapt quickly enough. Some other theories is that they were out competed (i.e. exterminated) by the cro magnon tribes that moved into their areas. My theory is that the two intermingled and bred together and some of us have neanderthal ancestry.... I was under the impression that DNA analysis had ruled out any interbreeding, though could be wrong on that point. My hunch is it has something to do with our ancesters developing a wider variety of tools.
Partisan 07-11-07, 10:53 AM	away with the feudal japanese-warrior-culture-theory in north america, more interesting is, what if the mesoamerican culture had also developed blackpowderweapons and steel and had fought against the spanish or what had happened if the chinese people came first to the american continent.
i_am_some_guy 07-11-07, 11:55 AM	I was under the impression that DNA analysis had ruled out any interbreeding, though could be wrong on that point. My hunch is it has something to do with our ancesters developing a wider variety of tools. One school said that, but another school said that the studies didn't prove that at all..... which took us back to square one.
i_am_some_guy 07-11-07, 11:57 AM	away with the feudal japanese-warrior-culture-theory in north america, more interesting is, what if the mesoamerican culture had also developed blackpowderweapons and steel and had fought against the spanish or what had happened if the chinese people came first to the american continent. Some actually believe that they did... I forget his name, but the Admirial Eunich is said to have reached the Americas. But, an "industrialized" America would have been an interesting situation. Or, an another note, Divine Magic worked here in the America's....
Shiftkitty 07-11-07, 03:04 PM	Native Americans were a warrior culture. I believe they were more of a nomadic hunter/gatherer culture.
i_am_some_guy 07-11-07, 04:17 PM	I believe they were more of a nomadic hunter/gatherer culture. Nope. That's like saying that Feudal Japan was an agrarian culture. Besides the fact that when you talk about Native American's you're talking about over 500 Nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/500_Nations).
Ranger REG 07-11-07, 07:33 PM	They did ;-) And make cool samurai-type armors and (metal, not obsidian or stone) swords? :P
Shiftkitty 07-11-07, 08:00 PM	Nope. That's like saying that Feudal Japan was an agrarian culture. Besides the fact that when you talk about Native American's you're talking about over 500 Nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/500_Nations). And all of them killing each other. Now give them those nifty samurai swords, lots sharper and deadlier IMO than stone knives, axes and arrows. Maybe we have different definitions of "culture". I'm separating "level of civilization" from "culture", and I admit that my knowledge of feudal Japan is sorely lacking, so I can't really compare the two. I started to read "Musashi", but lost the book before I cleared the first chapter. I'm told it's pretty accurate, but that won't do me any good if I can't find it now, will it?
Partisan 07-11-07, 08:48 PM	Some actually believe that they did... I forget his name, but the Admirial Eunich is said to have reached the Americas. But, an "industrialized" America would have been an interesting situation. Or, an another note, Divine Magic worked here in the America's.... Yes, yes, I know he had a big fleet and maybe the biggest sailing ships ever, I've heard of it, too. but what I'm thinking of is more, what if they had settlements and what if the chinese culture has occupied the whole country. would their maybe shaolin-like atztecs and what about the warfare.
Asra 07-12-07, 05:03 AM	What if the Eunuch Admiral wasn't just exploring, but conquering the known world, instead of just showing off China's power? I mean, he had a navy far larger than the spanish armada! Or what if he actually continued all the way around Africa and into Europe? ;)
i_am_some_guy 07-12-07, 11:29 AM	And make cool samurai-type armors and (metal, not obsidian or stone) swords? :P Well, if you take the obsidian club/swords of meso-america and the jaguar armor... yeah, pretty cool :D Semantics man... semantics... culture or technology? Native American culture was war-like and a martial culture. Some were agrarian, some were nomadic. The biggest thing was no real metal working. Now, "what if" Native American's developed metal working? Lot of interesting what-ifs. Turtledove wrote a book where instead of the Indian tribes the Amercias were still in the Pleistocene era... including proto-man. Was an interesting book....
Ranger REG 07-13-07, 02:04 AM	Now, "what if" Native American's developed metal working? Why didn't they? Was it a cultural taboo to stay away from certain "rocks"? Or they do not have the means to find them?
OleOneEye 07-13-07, 02:30 AM	Why didn't they? Was it a cultural taboo to stay away from certain "rocks"? Or they do not have the means to find them? There was some metalworking. For example, Pizarro received a room full of gold as ransom from the Incan Emperor before killing him. The most significant hindrance to the development of metallurgical techniques was that the Americas generally had less contact over large distances for new expertise to spread. Jared Diamond largely attributes it to the general North-South orientation of the Americas as opposed to the general East-West orientation of Eurasia/North Africa. Regardless, even with metallurgy on the level of Europe c. 1500-1600, the devastations wrought by smallpox and other Eurasian diseases were absolutely crippling to American nations, and so heavily hindered resistance to Spanish colonization. In addition, the tactical advantage of the horse was more important than steel anyway. Perhaps most important was the manner in which conquistadors were able to pit various nations against each other. For example, Cortez had allied armies in the tens of thousands in his war against Montezuma, without which his ragtag band of several hundred would never have been able to defeat an Empire. As is, they were lucky they weren't slaughtered in Tenochtitlan.
ArgulFraster 07-14-07, 03:41 PM	Perhaps an interesting idea is this: What if, alongside Cro-Magnons and Neandertals, lions and, say...elephants also evolved? And what if due to constant battle we ended up with Industrial-Revolution stuff in the 1200s? What if each continent evolved a different sort of humanoid? What if all dinosaurs survived...in Australia?
Ranger REG 07-14-07, 09:29 PM	There was some metalworking. For example, Pizarro received a room full of gold as ransom from the Incan Emperor before killing him. But why stop at gold and silver (soft metal)? Why not evolve to discovering and working with hard metal (like iron)?
ArgulFraster 07-15-07, 12:52 PM	But why stop at gold and silver (soft metal)? Why not evolve to discovering and working with hard metal (like iron)? This may sound silly...but what if it were extraterrestrials keeping them from doing it?
Ranger REG 07-16-07, 01:28 AM	This may sound silly...but what if it were extraterrestrials keeping them from doing it? A case! This is the job for the Hoffman Institute! *trumpet fanfare*
OleOneEye 07-16-07, 08:17 AM	But why stop at gold and silver (soft metal)? Why not evolve to discovering and working with hard metal (like iron)? Because Spanish conquistadors destroyed their culture before they reached that level of metallurgy. If given perhaps another 500-1000 years without European contact, they likely would.
ScS 07-16-07, 11:54 AM	Here's a What If... What if the British Empire has been held together tooth and nail? Its 1963, and the world is in a Cold War. Much of the world is under the boot-heal of the British Empire, including India, the African continent, Oceana, and much of the Middle East. London and Washington stare across the pond, each eying the other menacingly. Other nations play a dangerous game; playing the Americans and the English off against each other, while trying to maintain independence. German ruled Europa, Czarist Russia and the Nipponese Empire counterbalance the equation.
i_am_some_guy 07-16-07, 05:25 PM	Here's a What If... What if the British Empire has been held together tooth and nail? Its 1963, and the world is in a Cold War. Much of the world is under the boot-heal of the British Empire, including India, the African continent, Oceana, and much of the Middle East. London and Washington stare across the pond, each eying the other menacingly. Other nations play a dangerous game; playing the Americans and the English off against each other, while trying to maintain independence. German ruled Europa, Czarist Russia and the Nipponese Empire counterbalance the equation. I've always liked the concept of "aether" and have an alternative history where Aether ships were created giving industrial age powers access to the skies and space.
Alexeduardo 07-17-07, 03:54 PM	Um, what are we taking as native americans here? Astecs had a very powerull army that could have succeeded in a war against Spain if it hadnt been for the awfully high charisma score Hernàn Cortèz had. Speaking of which... What if the aforementioned spanish commander hadnt rolled that 18 on cha and moctezuma hadnt fallen to his words??? :eek:
ScS 07-17-07, 04:38 PM	Cortes may have been a great conqueror (as enslaving warlord bandit kings go) but don't forget to give credit to his indigenous allies. The Aztec empire may have been top dog in Mexico, but it was surrounded by jealous enemies, each of whom posed a real threat. The whole situation was a fragile equilibrium, one in which a tiny change could result in a massive upheaval. Suddenly, enter the Spanish. Cortes and his superior technology weren't invulnerable. In fact, the Spanish had already been defeated in battle by the Totonacs, but had been spared because the Totonacs realized that the Spanish as allies would tip the balance against the Aztecs. When Cortes reached Tenochtitlan, he already had an army of Nahuas and Totonacs. The combination of Spanish brains and tech and native numbers made victory possible. But... why have some posters been so hung up on North American Indians? Speaking for myself, I think its because they are so very distinct from the South and Central American peoples. I think the underlying feeling is that the Inca and the Aztecs got their chance. They had enough time to develop and just didn't make the cut. Also, its kind of hard to root for people who performed human sacrifices.
Alexeduardo 07-17-07, 06:44 PM	Cortes may have been a great conqueror (as enslaving warlord bandit kings go) but don't forget to give credit to his indigenous allies. The Aztec empire may have been top dog in Mexico, but it was surrounded by jealous enemies, each of whom posed a real threat. The whole situation was a fragile equilibrium, one in which a tiny change could result in a massive upheaval. Suddenly, enter the Spanish. Cortes and his superior technology weren't invulnerable. In fact, the Spanish had already been defeated in battle by the Totonacs, but had been spared because the Totonacs realized that the Spanish as allies would tip the balance against the Aztecs. When Cortes reached Tenochtitlan, he already had an army of Nahuas and Totonacs. The combination of Spanish brains and tech and native numbers made victory possible. But... why have some posters been so hung up on North American Indians? Speaking for myself, I think its because they are so very distinct from the South and Central American peoples. I think the underlying feeling is that the Inca and the Aztecs got their chance. They had enough time to develop and just didn't make the cut. Also, its kind of hard to root for people who performed human sacrifices. 1- yes, I am aware the spanish would have never won if it wasnt for the tlaxcaltecas and other subdued enemies of the astecs. but they would have never followed him if it hadnt been for his epic-level CHA. 2-Um, havent I already stated that the astec empire's army would have beaten the spanish in a traditional war? 3- The obvious answer would be "cause they're all yanks". I'm part mexican and I gotta ask you ¿How many pyramids do you see in the north amèricas?
Alexeduardo 07-17-07, 06:50 PM	Perhaps an interesting idea is this: What if, alongside Cro-Magnons and Neandertals, lions and, say...elephants also evolved? And what if due to constant battle we ended up with Industrial-Revolution stuff in the 1200s? What if each continent evolved a different sort of humanoid? What if all dinosaurs survived...in Australia? :bored: Um, it just doesnt seem plausible. Y'see technology advances slower when you're constanly throwing rocks at each other. May are gonna say that we would constantly seek newkinds of rocks to thow at each other. Those are rare cases that only occur when the conflicting factions are TRULY desperate. And, if we are in constant conflict we would be extinct very, very soon.
Shiftkitty 07-17-07, 07:58 PM	1- yes, I am aware the spanish would have never won if it wasnt for the tlaxcaltecas and other subdued enemies of the astecs. but they would have never followed him if it hadnt been for his epic-level CHA. 2-Um, havent I already stated that the astec empire's army would have beaten the spanish in a traditional war? 3- The obvious answer would be "cause they're all yanks". I'm part mexican and I gotta ask you ¿How many pyramids do you see in the north amèricas? Have you seen the structures of the Anasazi? My people weren't any slouches when it came to throwing rocks together. Mesa Verde, Canyon de Chelly, lengthy highway system, etc. As Mexico is part of North America*, why don't you list a few? "Yanks" refers to English settlers. The tribes weren't "yanks". Find another word. I'm curious, though, as to what a "traditional" war is. *Unless they've changed it, we got zinged on this one regularly in school because we all assumed that, because of cultural similarities, that it was part of Central America.
i_am_some_guy 07-17-07, 08:27 PM	Have you seen the structures of the Anasazi? My people weren't any slouches when it came to throwing rocks together. Mesa Verde, Canyon de Chelly, lengthy highway system, etc. As Mexico is part of North America*, why don't you list a few? "Yanks" refers to English settlers. The tribes weren't "yanks". Find another word. I'm curious, though, as to what a "traditional" war is. *Unless they've changed it, we got zinged on this one regularly in school because we all assumed that, because of cultural similarities, that it was part of Central America. And a great number of folks aren't English settlers either... But I think your point is Indiginous to North America... and that includes Mexico....
Alexeduardo 07-17-07, 09:24 PM	Have you seen the structures of the Anasazi? No, never heard of em My people weren't any slouches when it came to throwing rocks together. Mesa Verde, Canyon de Chelly, lengthy highway system, etc. As Mexico is part of North America*, why don't you list a few? Chichen itzà, The Tenochtitlan Temples, La junta's pyramids, etc.. "Yanks" refers to English settlers. The tribes weren't "yanks". Find another word. Done. Gringos* I'm curious, though, as to what a "traditional" war is. it's the term used to call two armies marching right into each other. which is pretty much rended useless when confronted with the guerrilla tactics once used by the vietnamese and (currently) the iraqis *Though I find it hard to believe you are a native Northamericanfromthepartofnorthamericath atiscurrentlypartoftheUSA
Shiftkitty 07-17-07, 09:55 PM	Have you seen the structures of the Anasazi? No, never heard of em My people weren't any slouches when it came to throwing rocks together. Mesa Verde, Canyon de Chelly, lengthy highway system, etc. As Mexico is part of North America*, why don't you list a few? Chichen itzà, The Tenochtitlan Temples, La junta's pyramids, etc.. "Yanks" refers to English settlers. The tribes weren't "yanks". Find another word. Done. Gringos* I'm curious, though, as to what a "traditional" war is. it's the term used to call two armies marching right into each other. which is pretty much rended useless when confronted with the guerrilla tactics once used by the vietnamese and (currently) the iraqis *Though I find it hard to believe you are a native Northamericanfromthepartofnorthamericath atiscurrentlypartoftheUSA "Yankee" was a corruption of "English". Gringo refers to white Americans, not the native tribes. (At least when we were growing up it did. I know the language has changed somewhat.) The only Spanish word I've heard to refer to the tribes in general is "indios". If they had a racist word for it, they never said to any tribesman's face. No counterpoint to your definition of traditional war. Now, why do you find my heritage hard to believe? Curious.
Ranger REG 07-19-07, 02:21 AM	Here's a What If... What if the British Empire has been held together tooth and nail? You mean what if the American Revolutionary War failed? Hockey trumps Baseball and Basketball. :eek: Sorry, but we can't have that.
Lissa 07-22-07, 05:17 PM	3 what ifs to make an interesting campaign. 1. What if the american indians developed metal working? 2. What if China built a few settlements in north america? 3. What if the chinese brought horses and cows over there? Think of the implications. The indians would have better weapons and some degree of armor. The chinese would teach the indians one of their languages and their written language. The indians would develop their horse riding skills earlier and become the first cowboys. The cows would expose some of them to cowpox which would help protect them from smallpox somewhat.
Tacitus_Acheros 07-23-07, 01:13 AM	What if Jesus Christ was never born? What if the Bolshevik Revolution failed? What if the Thirteen Colonies' grievances had been settled peacefully, forestalling an American Revolution? What if the Nazis never came to power, but World War Two still occurred due to Soviet aggression (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_%26_Conquer:_Red_Alert#Setting_. 26_story)? What if Charlemagne's empire survived his death? What if the Americans managed to conquer Canada during the War of 1812? What if they went on adding neighboring nations to their empire? What if nuclear weapons were never developed? What if the Iroquois Confederacy joined the United States, prompting improved Native American relations for the rest of the nation's history? What if Africa was never colonized? What if the state of Israel was never created? What if the United States fell apart shortly after winning independence from England? What if the magic, monsters, and races of D&D inhabited Earth? And some from Harry Turtledove: What if Muhammad had converted to Christianity, eventually becoming Saint Mouamet (renowned for his beautiful hymns) but never founding Islam? What if the Byzantine Empire had collapsed under the first Muslim invasion? What if the Spanish Armada successfully conquered England (http://boards1.wizards.com/leaving.php?destination=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruled%20Britannia)? What if the Persians overran Greece, burying democracy in the rubble of Athens? What if aliens invaded (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwar) during World War Two, forcing the Allies and Axis to work together? What if time-traveling South African white supremacists supplied the Confederacy with AK-47s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guns_of_the_South)? What if the Confederates won the Civil War? I know, I know, done to death--but Turtledove has a unique twist on this. In his Timeline 191 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline-191), the CSA eventually allies itself with Russia, France, and Great Britain, while the USA makes pacts with Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Italy. World War One ends with a German-US victory. Years later, however, a fascist political party in the CSA comes to power and starts a second world war, while quietly undertaking a "final solution" to deal with its black population. Also features Marxist Lincoln, Mormon suicide bombers, "Red Negro" uprisings, and occupied Canada. And one from Terry Pratchett, Ian Stewart, and Jack Cohen: What if Charles Darwin ended up writing The Theology of Species (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Science_of_Discworld_III:_Darwin%27s _Watch), irrefutably proving the divine design of all life forms?
WestVirginiaRebel 07-29-07, 07:25 PM	Hi all-just found this forum so I thought I'd offer a few ideas of my own: What if Jupiter rather than the Sun had become our star? What if the Eastern rather than the Western Roman Empire had fallen? What if Germany had never become an independent nation? What if France had become a communist country in the 1870s? What if the Russian Revolution had happened in 1905? What if Trotsky had survived? What if Roosevelt had been assassinated in the 1930's (this actually almost happened). What if life had developed on Mars instead of Earth? What if Marco Polo's journey to China had started the Renaissance two hundred years earlier? What if Constantine the Great had never converted to Christianity? What if St. Brenden (believed to have reached the Americas according to some accounts) had introduced Christianity to the American Indians? What if Russia still owned Alaska? What if Japan and America had been allies during WW2, but Germany was still the enemy? What if the Haymarket Explosion of 1886 had started a second Civil War? What if the French, rather than the Spaniards, had colonized Mexico and South America? What if Zorastrianism (sp?) rather than Islam were the major religion of the Middle East today? I welcome any and all comments! :)
ArgulFraster 07-29-07, 10:40 PM	What if Warforged were somehow created during WWII?
Partisan 07-30-07, 06:58 AM	What if Warforged were somehow created during WWII? Ha, secret weapons of the third reich I would say.
ArgulFraster 08-01-07, 01:28 AM	Ha, secret weapons of the third reich I would say. This is a job for...HELLFORGED! Now THERE's an interesting alt history idea. ~What if the Hellboy and D&D timelines merged with ours during WWII? ~What if Hitler got his hands on the Hand and Eye of Vecna?
Partisan 08-01-07, 06:27 AM	here is some more: - what if the secret Thule Society were a group of demonologists and bloodmages. - I like the idea of Wehrmacht Zombies, using their weapons. - what if Great Britain used celtic Druids against them and the US Army native shamans.
Th_Ar_Al 08-01-07, 07:25 PM	General concept, there are mutants/super-humans in the world, but they are powers are viewed as magic, even by themselves. aplly that concept in: *Stone age with cavemen *To the Roman Empire who believed that the mutants are gods *To the middle age with mudants seeing as both as saints or as sons of devil.
Sigurd van Norhusen 08-02-07, 02:59 AM	Couple of interesting WIs: - WI the Ottoman Empire stayed neutral in WW1 (keeping the straits closed nonetheless)? - WI the Chinese treasure fleet reached America? - WI Poland-Lithuania had not crippled itself with the Liberum Veto? - WI Napoleon died during his Egypt campaign? - WI Napoleon did not return after his first defeat? - WI the congress of Vienna dissolved into an British/Austro-Russia/Prussian war?
The Colonel 08-18-07, 07:44 PM	I'll start us off with a few of the more obvious ones My take on these: ~ What if the Cold War had turned hot? Probably a world largely owned by latin America and Africa, assuming they survived the nuclear winter and fallout. Possibly humanity knocked back into a pre-industrial mess that we would be unable to escape. ~ What if the Axis had won the Second World War? Difficult to say ... hard to see how a society as culturally bankrupt as Nazi Germany would remain stable for very long. Japan might have remained indefinitely, but I would expect civil war in the Reich within a few decades of victory. Plus an outright victory over the US is mind bogglingly unlikely, so a return match would be on the cards sooner or later. ~ What if the Roman Empire had never fallen? Arguably something like the Byzantine empire might have arisen in the medium term - that was, after all, a Roman Empire that was around for nearly another millenium after the one based in Rome. How technology would have progressed in a more staid and peaceful Europe would remain to be seen. ~ What if the French had won at Waterloo? Another long and bloody Napoleonic war, probably ending the same way as the previous one, but with France a lot worse off. ~ What if the American War of Independence had never happened? Probably America develops a lot more slowly, Britain likely to have her hands full managing the colonies and therefore not expanding into India and Africa as much. Possibly facing off against Spain and France, maybe with the French holding India. ~ What if Carthage had conquered Rome in the Punic Wars? Unsure. So big a departure that it's hard to calculate. ~ What if the Norman invasion of 1066 had failed? England remains predominately part of the Scandinavian block, which might well become a serious player in Europe - possibly early (re)discovery of the Americas via the northern circle route. ~ What if Greece had lost the battle of Marathon? Unsure. ~ What if the US had never intervened in Vietnam? Then the line in the sand has to be drawn elsewhere - Thailand perhaps?
The Colonel 08-18-07, 08:03 PM	Here's a What If... What if the British Empire has been held together tooth and nail? Its 1963, and the world is in a Cold War. Much of the world is under the boot-heal of the British Empire, including India, the African continent, Oceana, and much of the Middle East. London and Washington stare across the pond, each eying the other menacingly. Other nations play a dangerous game; playing the Americans and the English off against each other, while trying to maintain independence. German ruled Europa, Czarist Russia and the Nipponese Empire counterbalance the equation. The easiest way to set this up is for Disraeli and Bismarck to have expanded on their explorations during the Congress of Berlin and form some kind of pact. Arguably the US would have very little to do with the British Empire and worry more about Japan - it took a lot of work to get the US involved in Europe during WW1 and without it they probably would have remained a Pacific centred power and kept meddling in South America. Also remember than unless something has dislodged the Ottoman Empire they will still be controlling the Middle East, not the British. We'll assume that France has been broken down by Germany and hasn't successfully teamed up with Russia to a degree that influences anything - possibly the war of 1914-16 put paid to that idea. We might also look at the UK and US making common cause against Japan. An optimistic picture might show a German/US/UK entente as the leading power group, with Japan/Rest of Asia and the Ottoman Middle East as the remaining major blocks that aren't allies or sattelites. Arguably the world is probably a less violent place, less advanced in many areas and possibly non nuclear, but with a higher overall level of developement.
The Colonel 08-18-07, 08:21 PM	- what the native americans were samurai - what if guns were never invented - what if we mounted lions and wolves insted of horses - what if the dinosaurs never died off - an agrarian feudal state in the Americas might have put a serious dent in European colonisation, depending on where it was it might have prevented it completely. -hard to fathom. I suspect that sooner or later guns have to break through - or ranged weapons remain limited to mechanical power. Which probably doesn't change all that much. -we would have been eaten. There's a reason we ride herbivores - a stallion is a dangerous enough beast as it is without it regarding you as potential food. -would have needed a serious difference in the global environment which might have prevented the age of mammals. Unless were getting all 'lost world' here. In which case it changes approximately nothing. As to some other posts: -(what would have happened if the Chinese fleets had colonised America) Theory is that they did. And then the Emperor wound his nation's collective neck in and the colonies died out or were assimilated. Eventually a Chinese map made its way to someone who slipped a copy to one Mr Columbus ... much later a Mr Von Daniken also got a copy, but he didn't do anything useful with it. For an idea of what might have happened if the Chinese hadn't got all wierd on us, see if you can find some of David Wingrove's 'Chung Kuo' series.
ArgulFraster 08-18-07, 09:54 PM	Few more ideas WI) Hitler had somehow acquired a Book of Vile Darkness/connected with some evil being and used the Holocaust as a coverup for his sacrifices? WI) Instead of tanks, mechs were developed? WI) Rome had never come to be?
i_am_some_guy 08-20-07, 11:30 AM	Few more ideas WI) Hitler had somehow acquired a Book of Vile Darkness/connected with some evil being and used the Holocaust as a coverup for his sacrifices? WI) Instead of tanks, mechs were developed? WI) Rome had never come to be? I always have issues with mechs. The reason is because they're physically impossible. The reason the tank works is that the force it applies to the ground is divided by the tread area. Thes standard formula that I'm sure most know of http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/3/2/d/32d4b39203e22b47e94d27a74be6268a.png Is divded by surface area. So the force applied is related to mass, divided by the surface area. Thus, tanks can tread over areas that wheeled vehicles can't. Mechs have feet and thus smaller surface areas but yet provide greater force to the ground. If we suspect disbelief for a moment and accept that power trains and fuel sources are such that you can build giant robots that chicken walk -- the ground is another matter entirely. In order to play with Mechs I have to seroiusly suspend disbelief... of course I have, just like with giant insects (another topic but they're also a physical impossibility in a 1G environment).
ArgulFraster 08-20-07, 12:21 PM	I've made SERIOUSLY overloaded Lego mechs before, and they can stand, and if you balance them correctly, walk. I've even made them stand on uneven ground. I think that Mechs are entirely possible-but they'd be spider mechs for the first few gens. The more legs you have, the harder it is to fall.
i_am_some_guy 08-20-07, 12:35 PM	Lego mechs? I think you're missing my point. You can make a model for just about anything and they're standing just fine. You can make a robot model that can walk (though they're proving problematic above a certain size). I'm talking about the force applied to the ground via the feet based on the mass of the object.
JuanNavarro 08-21-07, 08:22 AM	Okay, guys, this is a place for us all to contribute and discuss ideas for alternative real-world timelines, a bit like "1001" thread but not, because I didn't put "1001" in the title ;) ~ What if the Roman Empire had never fallen? .... I always dig this one. I think that is you ever pick up "Top Ten" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_10_%28comic%29)by Alan Moore, you could get some bad ass ideas off that. I dug how he had made the Prime world the world where the Roman Empire had never fallen and had an amazing take on the whole thing, both visually thanks to Gene Ha, and overall thanks to Alan Moore's writing. Great stuff.
The Colonel 08-21-07, 08:11 PM	Few more ideas WI) Hitler had somehow acquired a Book of Vile Darkness/connected with some evil being and used the Holocaust as a coverup for his sacrifices? The Cthulu genre has already been there - as have many others, usually centering around the Thule society and Hitler's well know interest in paganism and the occult. And of course you are aware that 'holocaust' means, pretty much exactly, 'burnt offering' and has been used in older translations of the Bible to describe (for example) the large offerings made by some of the Israelite kings on behalf of their people...
The Colonel 08-21-07, 08:18 PM	I always have issues with mechs. The reason is because they're physically impossible. The reason the tank works is that the force it applies to the ground is divided by the tread area. Thes standard formula that I'm sure most know of Is divded by surface area. So the force applied is related to mass, divided by the surface area. Thus, tanks can tread over areas that wheeled vehicles can't. Mechs have feet and thus smaller surface areas but yet provide greater force to the ground. If we suspect disbelief for a moment and accept that power trains and fuel sources are such that you can build giant robots that chicken walk -- the ground is another matter entirely. In order to play with Mechs I have to seroiusly suspend disbelief... of course I have, just like with giant insects (another topic but they're also a physical impossibility in a 1G environment). This is fine if you accept FASA's basis-of-nothing-in-particular masses for their mechs - I seem to recall that the general opinion amongst people who both know the genre and understand AFV design is that Mechs should not weigh nearly as much as suggested in Battletech. Granted they are still liable to tear the ground up, but you trade off higher ground pressure for better manouverability on sloping and rough ground and improved obstacle crossing. On flat, open ground and/or in high intensity warfare a mech would be target practice - in forests, mountains and broken terrain and for the sort of low intensity conflicts they are usually depicted as fighting in then they are liable to be more effective.
Cam S. 08-22-07, 09:37 AM	How about some virulent disease evolved in Mexico; the Aztecs caught it early on, and developed antibodies. When the Conquistadors show up, the Natives catch small pox, and all the other Old World diseases, while the Europeans catch this Aztec Plague. Lacking the antibodies for it, they begin to die off as fast as the Natives do; wealthy colonists who return to Europe for medical treatment carry the disease with them, causing a deadly plague to sweep eastward. This would put the Natives and the Europeans on more level footing more easily (and believably) than altering the Native technological level. How about this--in the 13th century, an event sometimes referred to as "The Closing of the Gates of Ijtihad (http://home.alphalink.com.au/~jperkins/ProspIsl.htm)" (Ijtihad = Independent Thought) occurred when the Muslim philosopher Ibn Rashd was accused by the religious orthodoxy of being too rationalistic, and subsequently led to an environment somewhat hostile to scientific method and the free exchange of ideas. If the outcome of the dispute between Ibn Rashd and the Orthodoxy had occurred differently, Islam might have remained the most technologically advanced culture in the world.
The Colonel 08-22-07, 05:10 PM	How about some virulent disease evolved in Mexico; the Aztecs caught it early on, and developed antibodies. When the Conquistadors show up, the Natives catch small pox, and all the other Old World diseases, while the Europeans catch this Aztec Plague. Lacking the antibodies for it, they begin to die off as fast as the Natives do; wealthy colonists who return to Europe for medical treatment carry the disease with them, causing a deadly plague to sweep eastward. This would put the Natives and the Europeans on more level footing more easily (and believably) than altering the Native technological level. There was, at one stage, a rumour that we had swapped syphillis for the various afflictions we gave the Amerindians. Variations on this could also be behind the outright vanishing of some of the early colonies in the north. Realistically this would postpone colonisation of the Americas by a couple of centuries, but would be unlikely to prevent it completely. Islam might have remained the most technologically advanced culture in the world. Except that the 'advanced' nature of technology in the middle east was only relative to that of a western europe devastated by warfare after the fall of Rome ... the knowledge was pre-Islamic and was generally found in the surviving portion of the Roman Empire (that is, Byzantium and its colonies). Still, it's an interesting idea ...
WestVirginiaRebel 08-23-07, 06:07 AM	The idea of Neandertals (or were they Cro-Magnons?) surviving in North America was a science fiction story, "And So To Bed," in which the Neandertals (?) are discovered by the early colonists and used as slaves.
WestVirginiaRebel 08-23-07, 06:11 AM	As far as Native Americans go, it seems to me the two main things that kept them from becoming as advanced as the Europeans (at least in North America) were that they never developed the wheel, and they never really developed the idea of a central government (at least in what is now the U.S.) Also, they didn't have horses, which were certainly important to the development of Middle Eastern and European civilizations.
waiwode 08-23-07, 03:28 PM	As far as Native Americans go, it seems to me the two main things that kept them from becoming as advanced as the Europeans (at least in North America) were that they never developed the wheel, and they never really developed the idea of a central government (at least in what is now the U.S.) Also, they didn't have horses, which were certainly important to the development of Middle Eastern and European civilizations. The wheel (and the ball) was invented in North & America. South America was too rocky, for the most part, and neither North nor South (nor Central) had any suitable animals to pull wheeled vehicles. So the wheel remained a curiousity, an engineering/astrology tool, or a childrens' toy. All of the Americas had the same problems: Not enough domestic animals. No chickens, cattle, horses. Not enough disease resistance due to domestic animal epidemics. Cow pox & chicken pox and a host of other diseases proved devestating to the American population when Europeans arrived. Not enough yeild from grain-like plants (maize is incredibly inefficient compared to the wheat family in terms of work and yield). Thus there's a low food surplus. Without a high food surplus, not enough "non-workers" are developed and supported. Thus ... no native Samurai. :) Without a large class of "non-workers" development is stalled. Thus, despite being about as old as European cultures, American cultures seem primitive* by comparison. *Some American cultures, like some "central band Eurasian" cultures, developed highly technical engineering abilities and astrology without modern equipment. However many also farmed the ground into salt-choked infertility, etc.
ArgulFraster 09-08-07, 12:22 AM	WI) A West Virginian town was suddenly transported into the middle of the Thirty Years War? (Cookie for the ref!)
SmiloDan 09-08-07, 02:59 PM	What if 99.9% of the population of Europe died from the Black Plague? What if the Mongol horde didn't have to be called back for an election prior to invading Europe? What if the Chinese applied gunpowder to projectile weapons earlier? What if the Catholic Church granted an annullment to Henry the 8th? (I think) What if Jefferson didn't buy Louisiana from the French? What if George W Bush didn't invade Iraq? What if the US had nuked Tokyo in WW2? What if the US had nuked Berlin in WW2? What if the Chinese never leased Hong Kong to the British? What if the British allowed Benjamin Franklin to enter the House of Commons as the representative of the 13 Colonies? What if King Herod succeeded in killing off the infant Jesus? What if JFK had not been assassinated? What if the Native Americans had invented mountain bikes prior to the arrival of the Europeans? What if the Iroquois had created a large nation-state?
The Colonel 09-08-07, 05:13 PM	>What if 99.9% of the population of Europe died from the Black Plague? The excerable Kim Stanley Robinson wrote a book about this. Since the man is a boring *** I didn't bother reading it. >What if the Mongol horde didn't have to be called back for an election prior >to invading Europe? No idea. >What if the Chinese applied gunpowder to projectile weapons earlier? Probably not much. >What if the Catholic Church granted an annullment to Henry the 8th? (I >think) Then the split between England and Rome would have developed over his second wife rather than his first, because as we all know, the lack of sons wasn't the wives problem. >What if Jefferson didn't buy Louisiana from the French? Probably, at some stage, a Franco-American war. Might have patched things up with the UK earlier as a result. >What if George W Bush didn't invade Iraq? Either a) Someone else would have had to (if the UN sanctions remained in place and effective) or b) Saddam develped WMD and became a serious regional menace, possibly striking at Israel and causing a regional menace (if the sanctions had continued to be circumvented or had been removed). or possibly c) Saddam's regime collapses, leading to a free for all in Iraq, probably with invasion by Iran. >What if the US had nuked Tokyo in WW2? The end to the war is then postponed as command devolves to pro-continuation factions in the military without an Emperor to overrule them. Massive losses amongst US military and all sections of Japanese society. Also a likely Soviet invasion of various other areas they didn't reach historically, leading to greater difficulty in preventing the spread of communism later. >What if the US had nuked Berlin in WW2? Would have meant that the Germans had held out a lot longer than they actually did. Also likely to worsen Euro-American relations and therefore make things easier for Stalin. >What if the Chinese never leased Hong Kong to the British? Likely that they would have been beaten until they did. It wasn't a voluntary lease. >What if the British allowed Benjamin Franklin to enter the House of Commons >as the representative of the 13 Colonies? Probably a smaller, less efficient US and less colonisation of India - possibly India even becoming a French colony. >What if King Herod succeeded in killing off the infant Jesus? Either this event is not possible (Christian viewpoint) or (non-Christian viewpoint) you effectively prevent the rise of Christianity. This is likely to make the dark ages darker (since for all its faults the Roman church did provide both preservation of knowledge and central co-ordination after the fall of Rome), and possibly put a serious crimp in Western civilisation generally. Might also have had an effect on the rise of Islam and there would have been no Christians to protect the fugitive Mo and have their religion pirated and turned against them later. >What if JFK had not been assassinated? Difficult to say. >What if the Native Americans had invented mountain bikes prior to the >arrival of the Europeans? !!!!!? That would have made for a MUCH higher tech level in the Americas than Europe. That's a complete paradigm shift you have there... >What if the Iroquois had created a large nation-state? Probably would have slowed the colonisation of the Americas down quite a lot and lead to some proper wars. Still likely to have lead to the genocide of the Amerindians UNLESS the Iroquoise confederacy eventually ended up joining the Union, in which case who knows.
Eloc 09-09-07, 08:35 PM	True, but more interesting would be what would have happened had the early European colonists -not- infected the locals with Smallpox, which wiped out approx 90-95% of the native american population?
ArgulFraster 09-16-07, 05:06 PM	WI) A large ex-manufacturing center (somewhere from the rust belt, say, one where the industries have shut down comparatively recently) were transported into the early 1700s?
i_am_some_guy 09-17-07, 12:18 PM	Lot of "what if" ideas tossed here. But how many of them can make campaigns? I put forth this challenge to this list. Creation of a campaign with the 1st 4 adventures based on any one of the ideas presented so far.
yellowdingo 09-19-07, 08:48 AM	INVASION: 1775 Campaign Briefing: It is April 27, 1775...The Revolution is underway when a Star falls from the Sky... 1. THE FALL OF TRENTON "George Hunt! You bring in the cows now young man!" Elizabeth Hunt had a commanding voice when it came to getting her son's attention. George Hunt hurried across to the farmyard and opened the gate to the Graizing Field. "Heyup Bessy! Heyup!" George hurried over to the cows pulling at the pasture grass. A sound followed by others. Tzuzuz! Tzuzuz! Tzuzuz!... It was like some sort of bell. George looked around. It was a great black Cylinder supported by legs the thickness of tree trunks and it moved with the grace of a long legged spider on a web. George could only look. He was paralyzed with the sight of it. A heavy arm reached down from under the Cylinder ad a Lamp lit, shining a beam of light on the Farmhouse. The wooden structure exploded in flames and his mother Screamed as she burned. Tzuzuz! Tzuzuz! Tzuzuz!... The Giant moved on toward the Town of Trenton. DM BRIEFING: A Cylinder crashes to the Earth near Trenton in 1775. Within a Day a Cylinder with Four Metal Legs walks across the forested countryside then Burns its way through outlying Farms and assaults the Town. 2. A BLACK CLOUD OF DEATH IN THE SWAMPS "Good Lord, What be that?" John Landry rowed his little craft amongst the waterways of the swamp until he reached the cluster of metal legs. They towered above him. He looked up and saw the great metal cylinder from which they protruded. "Its a hundred feet tall..." It fell on John Landry like a ton of black flour...and billowed, sprayed out into the swamp. The last thing Landry heard as he died was the sound of the machine moving off. Tzuzuz! Tzuzuz! Tzuzuz!... DM BRIEFING: The Cylinder has moved out of Trenton into the Swamps. It is here that it unleashes a black gas that destroys all life in the Swamp before heading on to New York. 3. THE DESTRUCTION OF NEW YORK Jack Fisher watched as the tower walked across the Hudson like a wader crossing a shallow brook. The Boats on the waterway ignited and burned with their crews. "Its The Devil!" Jack Fisher fled toward town as fast as he could run. The inferno amongst the Boats on the river spread to the Port of New York as the great monster unleashed hellfire into the wooden homes that occupied the far end of the island. It waded up out of the water and into the Port. The Light from its lamp ignited gunpowder stores in great explosions that tore through building after building. DM BRIEFING: A Warmachine emerges from the forest and wades across the Hudson River onto the Island of New York. The Farms and the Huge Port are soon destroyed as are the hundreds of ships. The British troops occupying New York are soon descimated. 4. A MEETING OF THE CONTINENTAL CONGRESS "Look, I realize that you have a desire to surrender to the British in light of their Destruction of Trenton with this new weapon, but it is foolish." Washington leaned back in furstration "And how do you propose destroying something that burns buildings and men with the light of a Lantern, and seems untouched by Cannon and Musket fire? Soldiers in the woods as we shot them from cover, certainly but not this...walking battleship in a bottle that wont break." John Handcock took a swig of whiskey. "You dig a pit and let the beast fall in." Adams chimed in an idea. "It will have to be led right over the trap and then we need to make it defend itself...to contain the explosion." DM BRIEFING: After a Massacre at Trenton in which the populace were slaughtered without mercy, a Few Rebel Survivors report the destruction of Trenton at the Hands of the British in which they speak of a Lantern-like Weapon and a Giant legged Warmachine invulnerable to Cannons and Muskets. Now as the Revolution falls into Disarray, Scouts report a holocaust at Trenton and loss of Militias in the Swamps guarding their secret Gunpowder Stores. 5. THE PHILADELPHIA INCIDENT It emerged from the night dark waters with a terrible stealth. Behind it a moon shone through clouds. A lantern lit up somewhere near the base of its great body. Ships ignited, Warehouses and vessels brimming with gunpowder exploded in a terrible fury. "So that is what the new Warmachine of the British looks like. Incredible." George Washington watched in awe as the great engine of Death swept its lamp across the buildings cutting a swathe of fire through them. Cannons struggled to respond to the assault only to be met with a strange barrier that protected them from the artillery impacts. Washington signalled his aide. The lamps danced in the night. and more cannons fired at the great beast drawing it down a narrow street through the buildings. "How in God's Name could they build something like that?" The warmachine stepped over a huge pile of Barrels that blocked the street. "Its going to be interesting to find out." Washington signalled his aide again. Lanterns triggered a third round of Cannon Fire activating the protective curtain. From beneath the Curtain, Volunteer Militiaman Francis Johnson lit the short fuse and the barrels instantly exploded. The fireball filled the great screen and consumed the machine. DM BRIEFING: A machine wades up out of the Delaware and converges on the Town of Philadelphia. Washington has prepared an ambush to capture the British weapon. Taking Down the Giant: Its Force Screen protects it from Cannon fire, Its armour is immune to bullets, but it has one vulnerability. A massive explosion directly beneath the cylinder involving huge amounts of gunpowder will destroy it. But only if the force Screen is activated to channel the explosion. 6. NEWS FROM BOSTON "John, They're saying a great Devil come up out of the south and crossed the Hudson into New York setting it all afire..." Elizabeth Yates had hurried back from the Shops to her home. "What? What nonsense are you talking Woman?" John Yates was a sensible man. Not at all godfearing... "They called a meeting of the people in the market square and announced that a great Devil had come up and burned all of New York. They say its still heading our way." "I doubt that very much Elizabeth Yates...I think they are playing a terrible Hoax on folks and they will have to answer for it. I'll just get my gun and go see the villains off...Worrying descent folks and all." DM BRIEFING: Having cut a swathe of destruction from New York Northward, A Warmachine Attacks Boston. The Carnage is terrible and further rumors of a Giant Devil unleashed by Satan Worshipers in the Continental Congress spread upriver. Some Ships travelling to England carry news of it and the Destruction of New York. 7. THE CHARLESTOWN VICTORY "Run Sarah! Run!" Hugh Putter and his wife struggled through the mud and filth of the mudflats as the gread devourer pursued them. People died around them screaming and ablaze. Sarah Putter hiked the hem of her dress and dug through the mud, black with it, she crawled across its surface while others sank. She watched now as the great devil stepped over her mud drenched form, getting deeper with each step, Strggling that much harder to remain upright. Sarah could see the fires devouring Charlestown and the black smoke of Boston beyond it. Hugh Putter could only watch as the great Devil tipped in the mud and fell on his wife... "Sarah! No!" he raged back through the mud with the angry mob. A devil emerged from the great machine and they fell on it with brutal fury taking out its eyes and hacking it to pieces. DM BRIEFING: Boston Signalled for help from Charlestown but to no avail...the locals would not come to their aide and many Boston citizens died on the bank of the Charles as the machine descended the hill and waded out into the Charles. Having watched the Destruction of Boston by the Great Devil that had destroyed New York and cut a swathe across the countryside. The Town burned as the Warmachine crossed the Charles River and made for Charlestown. With the Destruction of Charlestown it pursues fleeing locals onto the mudflats.
Ral of Tyr 09-20-07, 04:38 PM	War of the worlds vs. George Washington. Did you know we was made of radiation? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsymvcqVc1s Did you know that the Martians, from Mars, were not orignially from there? They were colonists that crashed and were forced to survive there. Their society was so efficient at medicine, they erradicated all forms of microbial life and they forgot such things even existed. Alt.Hist. What if Germany invaded France in the 1600s/1700s and conquered it, then Germanized it? Why? I have Everchanging Book of Names and there's no French last name, but there's a German last, so, that gave me an idea. What if the Vikings had a good foothold on the American continent and developed a colony there like in Iceland? What if the Native Americans, in a century or so, developed the Viking technologies, i.e., metalurgy and began to advance? Sure, eventually, the natives would have whipped out the Vikings, as they did in Greenland, however, now the in the 1600s, the English would have been met by natives what had metal swords and a more complex society, perhaps a kingdom and a mechanism to resist English colonization. What if the Americas were the last refuge for dragons? What if Venus were in Mars's orbit and Mars in Venus's orbit?
i_am_some_guy 09-20-07, 05:01 PM	War of the worlds vs. George Washington. Did you know we was made of radiation? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsymvcqVc1s That's hilarious! Did you know that the Martians, from Mars, were not orignially from there? They were colonists that crashed and were forced to survive there. Their society was so efficient at medicine, they erradicated all forms of microbial life and they forgot such things even existed. Did you know as in what? You're not saying you believe this is real are you? Alt.Hist. What if Germany invaded France in the 1600s/1700s and conquered it, then Germanized it? Why? I have Everchanging Book of Names and there's no French last name, but there's a German last, so, that gave me an idea. bizarre... What if the Vikings had a good foothold on the American continent and developed a colony there like in Iceland? What if the Native Americans, in a century or so, developed the Viking technologies, i.e., metalurgy and began to advance? Sure, eventually, the natives would have whipped out the Vikings, as they did in Greenland, however, now the in the 1600s, the English would have been met by natives what had metal swords and a more complex society, perhaps a kingdom and a mechanism to resist English colonization. For a game concept a permanent Viking settlement is a nice idea. Your history is off though. What if the Americas were the last refuge for dragons? What if Venus were in Mars's orbit and Mars in Venus's orbit? Then the planets would jsut switch... mars would be just like venus and vice-versa. I think what you may want to say is "what if Venus could support life". Or a better what if in my opinion is "what if venus was a desert planet that still had an ecosystem chocked full of dinosaurs. What if Mars was a desert planet with canals to route water like Lowell thought".
Ral of Tyr 09-20-07, 05:15 PM	Did you know as in what? You're not saying you believe this is real are you? Yes. The easter bunny told me so. Then the planets would jsut switch... mars would be just like venus and vice-versa. I think what you may want to say is "what if Venus could support life". Or a better what if in my opinion is "what if venus was a desert planet that still had an ecosystem chocked full of dinosaurs. What if Mars was a desert planet with canals to route water like Lowell thought". If that were the case, Mars would have a warm atmosphere capable of having liquid water and Venus would have cooler atmosphere, but able to have liquid water.
i_am_some_guy 09-20-07, 05:52 PM	Yes. The easter bunny told me so. Gotcha. I've been forced to argue with kooks lately so the way you worded your comment threw me. If that were the case, Mars would have a warm atmosphere capable of having liquid water and Venus would have cooler atmosphere, but able to have liquid water. I'm not sure that'll be the case. What makes Mars and Venus different? They are fairly close in size. Mars Equatorial Radius: 3402.5km (.533 Earth) Venus Equatorial Radius: 6051.9km (0.95 Earth) The question what has occurred to cause both planets to exist the way they do now. Studies suggest that Venus probably was a lot like Earth with surface water. They blame a run-away greenhouse effect for the state it's in now. But, what kicked that off? They believe it was the evaporation of the water that did it. I'm not really convinced that's the case; a system wouldn't rise to a point of stability and not arbitrarily change without an outside instigation. In the case of Mars it lost it's magnetosphere 4 billion years ago. This makes the atmosphere thinner than it would have been. In fact the atmoshpere Mars still has cotinues to be blown away by the solar wind. Both planets most likely had some kind of event in their past that caused a major change to them. What if that never happened? Venus and Mars would both still have survivable atmospheres and standing bodies of water? That is the stuff of the Aether stories from the old days; where both planets are inhabitable and still had bodies. Now, if you move them as is I'm not sure you make that much of a difference. Mars would be warmer but closer to the sun and thus subjected to the sun and still a problem with no magentosphere; Venus would stay pretty much the same since it's temperature is primarily self induced at this point. So moving them would be detrimental to Mars and most likely no change for venus (other than it's hit by meteors more).
BigBobSr6000 09-22-07, 11:10 AM	Here are a few off the top of my head, enjoy…. 1. Atlantis was never destroyed. 2. Plastic was invented in 1890’s 3. Castro became a successful major league baseball player instead of being turned down when he tried out. (This is a “legend” and false but a fun what if?) 4. The USS Maine explosion in Cuban port on February 15, 1898 sparked WWI. 5. Attempt to kill Hitler on November 8, 1939 in Munich succeeded. The bomb exploded at 21:20 hours. 6. Attempt to kill Hitler on July 20, 1944 succeeded.The bomb exploded at 12:42 hours. Or there was no attempt (It is estimated that around 4,980 Germans were executed after the July Plot.) 7. The influenza pandemic of 1918-1919 killed somewhere between 20 and 40 million people never happened. 8. Black Death Bubonic Plague from 1347 to 1351 never happened. (Historical note, more people died form the flu pandemic of 1918-1919 than the Black Plague.) 9. Titanic never struck the iceberg on April 14, 1912 at 23:40 hours and sank. It reached port safely. Or sank so fast no survivors. 10. The German Hindenburg Airship landing at Lakehurst Naval Air Station in Manchester Township, New Jersey, USA, on May 6, 1937 never crashed and burned. Or did and no survivors. This started WWI early.
annoyinglizardvoice 09-22-07, 04:00 PM	What if Boudica successfully freed Briton from the Romans
Khadmus 10-16-07, 04:12 PM	Bump
Art_Tillary 10-20-07, 05:00 AM	WI) A West Virginian town was suddenly transported into the middle of the Thirty Years War? (Cookie for the ref!) I'm hungry, give me a bag. 1632 1633 1634: The Galileo Affair 1634: The Ram Rebellion 1634: The Baltic War 1634: The Baverian Crisis 1635: The Cannon Law 1637: Torturer of Fulda Ring of Fire Ring of Fire II Grantville Gazette #1 - 11
Mjollnir88 11-12-07, 12:35 AM	The wheel (and the ball) was invented in North & America. South America was too rocky, for the most part, and neither North nor South (nor Central) had any suitable animals to pull wheeled vehicles. So the wheel remained a curiousity, an engineering/astrology tool, or a childrens' toy. All of the Americas had the same problems: Not enough domestic animals. No chickens, cattle, horses. N.America had horses, but they were driven to extinction instead of domesticated. Not enough disease resistance due to domestic animal epidemics. Cow pox & chicken pox and a host of other diseases proved devestating to the American population when Europeans arrived. Maybe true of Central America, less so of North America. Not enough yeild from grain-like plants (maize is incredibly inefficient compared to the wheat family in terms of work and yield). Thus there's a low food surplus. Untrue. Corn is the most efficient crop we have. Our agricultural system is built on corn because it is so efficient. Without a high food surplus, not enough "non-workers" are developed and supported. Thus ... no native Samurai. :) Without a large class of "non-workers" development is stalled. Thus, despite being about as old as European cultures, American cultures seem primitive* by comparison. *Some American cultures, like some "central band Eurasian" cultures, developed highly technical engineering abilities and astrology without modern equipment. However many also farmed the ground into salt-choked infertility, etc. A culture's population size has alot of effect on its development potential.
RalofTyr 11-28-07, 01:50 AM	Europe 1914. http://aycu27.webshots.com/image/33586/2000719433247925434_rs.jpg Germany had already conquered all of France almost a hundred years ago. For a century, the Germans have had a progrom of De-Francoization/pro-Germanization. The French language is all but lost.
IrishRover 11-29-07, 12:56 AM	Alternatehistory.com has a LOT of well written ideas, from thoroughly fleshed out to mere sketches...but many great ideas that make for nice gaming universes.