Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-29-06, 03:25 AM	After an initial faulty release, I managed to develop a new trick with similar effect to the old one. This new trick requires very high level spells, so thankfully your typical game needn't worry about seeing this level of abuse. The new incarnation doesn't rely on tricky metamagic or strange rule interpretations. It's just plain jane spell abuse. Without further ado, I present: Arcane Nova Greater Arcane Fusion When you cast this spell, choose any 4st-level or lower sorcerer spell you know and any 7th level or lower sorcerer spell you know. Neither spell chosen can have a casting time longer than 1 std. action. . . . BUT YOU DON'T EXPEND ANY ADDITIONAL SPELL SLOTS TO CAST THOSE SPELLS Absorption 9th level sor/wiz; 10 mins/level until expended (blue text is paraphrased, black is quoted) You are allowed to absorb 1d4+6 levels worth of ranged spells that have you as a target. If you're hit with more levels than you can absorb, then a portion of the damage deal will be dealt to you (or you have a certain percentage chance of being affected by the effect if it is not a damaging effect). You can use captured spell energy to cast any spell you know or have prepared, but spells so cast don't disappear from your list of prepared spells or count against the number of spells you can normally cast per day (so you so must keep a running total of the spell levels absorbed and used). The levels of spell energy eyou have stored must be equal to or greater than the level of the spell you want to cast... The Trick: Feats required: Arcane Thesis (Greater Arcane Fusion), Practical Metamagic (Twin), Twin Spell, Maximize spell, Arcane Thesis (Absorption), Sanctum Spell, Cooperative Metamagic, practical metamagic (maximize). Caster level required: 18 (for a sorcerer). Two main spells will be cast: 1. Sanctum Cooperative Twinned Maximized Absorption: This spell is considered an 8th level spell outside of one's sanctum and we assume that we are outside our sanctum for this trick. Due to metamagic the casting time is one full round action. It occupies a 10th level spell slot to cast [9 (normal spell level) + 4 (twin) -1 (arcane thesis) -1 (practical metamagic) + 0 (Cooperative) -1 (arcane thesis) +0 (Sanctum) -1 (arcane thesis) + 3 maximize -1 (arcane thesis) - 1 (practical metamagic)]. I hope to bring this back down to a 9th level slot. For now we'll just have to assume that your character either has 1 10th level spell slot available or has a rod of maximize on hand. You really only need to cast this spell once by yourself. 2. Sanctum Cooperative Twinned Greater Arcane Fusion: This spell is considered a 7th level spell outside of one's sanctum and we assume that we are outside our santum for this trick. Due to the metamagic the casting time is one full round action. It occupies an 8th level spell slot to cast [8 (normal spell level) + 4 (twin) -1 (arcane thesis) -1 (practical metamagic) + 0 (Cooperative) -1 (arcane thesis) +0 (Sanctum) -1 (arcane thesis)] Cast Arcane Spellsurge: if you are dragonblooded (easy to get these days) you can cast this as a swift action. Cast favor of the martyr: This renders you immune to the dazed condition, among other things. Cast cooperative sanctum maximized twinned absorption (takes 1 std. action with arcane spell surge and rapid spell). I will call one of these absorptions "Absorption 1" and the other will be "Absorption 2". Cast sanctum twinned greater arcane fusion (takes 1 std. action with arcane spellsurge on) 7th or lower: twinned cooperative sanctum fifth level std. action ranged spell of your choice and target yourself. All of it is absorbed (10 levels in Absorption 1). When selecting spells this is an eligable spell (std. action, below 7th level). You apply metamagic when casting. For those who are picky, this still consumes a 5th level slot, so I'm not abusing the "free metamagic" concept. If you don't have a problem with the free metamagic concept, you can remove the sanctum and cooperative bit. 4th or lower: Twinned sanctum cooperative Orb of acid. All of it is absorbed into Absorption 2. You now have 8 absorbed levels in Absorption 2. When selecting spells for arcane fusion this is an eligable spell (std. action, 4th level or below). You apply metamagic when casting. 7th level or lower: output spell. You can output any spell you wish and target anyone you like with this spell. Have fun. Why not add twin and cooperative to these bad boys while you're at it? They'll consume 9th level slots... but wait a minute, you don't lose any spell slots when casting the sub-spells of arcane fusion. Heh heh. 4th level or lower: twinned sanctum cooperative celerity. You don't actually use up an immediate action to do this, as it is subsumed in the casting of arcane fusion (per RAW). That means you can cast this more than once per round. You gain 2 std. actions. You're immune to the daze, so there are no side effects. Use one std. action to cast another sanctum cooperative twinned maximized absorption. In doing so you have expended one of your already active absorptions. You now have 2 empty absorptions and 1 filled, and 1 partially filled. It's unlikely that we'll ever use those partially filled ones in this sequence. But feel free to burn them up afterwards. Use the other std. action gained two steps previous to do, you guessed it, cast a twinned sanctum cooperative arcane fusion. You cast this via the 8 spell levels you had absorbed into Absorption 2. You now have 2 partially filled, and 2 empty absorptions. Go back to the beginning of this subsequence to fill up the 2 empty absorptions. In the end you will have 2n partially filled absorptions active on your person. These will allow you to cast 2n second level spells and 2n first level spells. The bi-products of this magical nova: you end up with 22n 7th level or lower spells. You also gain 23n temporary spell levels quantized in 2 level chunks and 1 level chunks. I think you can only use the temp levels of one spell at a time, so no multi-sourcing. Oh well, having a bunch of 2nd and 1st level spells on hand is nice. And by a bunch I mean infinity. There's nothing which prevents this loop from setting n equal to infinity. The nice thing? You can stop it early if you want. No matter what, it'll still only take 1 std. action once the whole loops starts up. A Sample Build Silver Brow Human (from RoD): Dragonblood Sorcerer 4/Cleric 1 (magic, planning)/Dweomer Keeper 10/Loremaster 5 (Assume at least 16 int) Feats: 1. (Maximize Spell), Cooperative Metamagic, (Dragon Heritage (Pick a flavor)) 3. craft wonderous item 5. (Extend Spell) 6. Practical Metamagic (Mazimize) 9. Skill Focus (Knowledge Arcana) 12. Twin Spell 15. Practical Metamagic (Twin) 18. Arcane Thesis (Greater Arcane Fusion) 20. Arcane Thesis (Absorption) note: This build requires a scroll of favor of the martyr. Also, this character need not a 10th level spell slot to cast the metamagiced absorption, thanks to dweomerkeeper.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-29-06, 03:26 AM	Mmm... Should I reserve one? May as well...
Hanniball 11-29-06, 03:32 AM	Cast one of the sanctum arcane fusions outside your sanctum. Now you can cast any two sorcerer spells you know -- 4th level or below. Oh look, you know a spell called "sanctum arcane fusion While I am not at all familiar with Arcane Fusion, I don't think that's necessarily relevant here. You actually know a spell called Arcane Fusion. Applying a metamagic feat to that spell does not make it a new 'spell known'. Therefore, I do not feel it is a valid option for use with a standard Arcane Fusion.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-29-06, 03:36 AM	Hmm... well if you can figure out a way to have a sorcerer apply metamagic feats without increasing the casting time... Then he could cast his arcane fusion and apply the metamagic as he's casting it. Bypassing that problem. Unfortunately, it's awefully late where I am... and I don't want to research it at the moment. I'm certain it's possible... some way or another.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-29-06, 03:38 AM	God... I'm a retard. Yeah. There's a way. It was sitting right in front of me. Rapid Metamagic from CMag. It's not a metamagic feat. I'll add it to the OP.
Hanniball 11-29-06, 03:47 AM	edit:...blah blah blah way too late blah blah blah...
deathwishjoe 11-29-06, 04:29 AM	edit:...blah blah blah way too late blah blah blah... weak fool! you need to learn the wonders of caffeine and late night anime on cartoon network. one day you will join us on the darkside and your training shall be complete. back to topic. OMFG! I was working on this very same problem TG. only I was having trouble finding a way to make arcane fusion work with mnemonic enhancer. the casting time was throwing me off but this solution is so elegant and simple it brings a tear to my eye. I was honestly about to post a general find of mine to discuss the rules validity of using arcane fusion, GAF, alacritous cogitation wish, limited wish and miracle to possibly cast spells with free metamagic applied to them. the spell level doesnt go up with any of the normal metamagic feats. so when it says something, like arcane fusion does, where you can cast a spell without really casting it and try and limit the power of the spell by saying the spell needs to be of a certain level you can apply metamagic to it for free. So for good first level spells I have two suggestions. lesser celerity with some immunity to daze effects or a sanctum spelled scorching ray with whatever metamgaic feats you have available on it. Then he could cast his arcane fusion and apply the metamagic as he's casting it. Bypassing that problem. Unfortunately, it's awefully late where I am... and I don't want to research it at the moment. I'm certain it's possible... some way or another. this is an important issue. tomorrow I will do my own research into the matter and I eagerly await yours. P.S. we have candy and t-shirts over here on the dark side.
Lafing Cat 11-29-06, 05:15 AM	Hmm... well if you can figure out a way to have a sorcerer apply metamagic feats without increasing the casting time... Then he could cast his arcane fusion and apply the metamagic as he's casting it. Bypassing that problem. Sadly, even being able to apply sanctum spell on the fly doesn't work, because you aren't able to fulfill the criteria that says "Choose any 4th level (or lower) sorcerer spell you know." At the time of *choice* you aren't casting the spell, you're looking at your spells known list. And you're spells known list has it as a 5th level spell. You don't get to actually *cast* the spell until you've chosen it, and its not a valid choice, so you can't apply the feat as you cast it. This trick might work for a Spirit Shaman who obtains the spell, (and has a 1st level spell on the Sorcerer list) because they actually treat spells with metamagic feats on them as being one of their "spells known". (and thus could pick a Sanctum Arcane Fusion as one of their spells known for the day)
X-Codes 11-29-06, 05:50 AM	Sadly, even being able to apply sanctum spell on the fly doesn't work, because you aren't able to fulfill the criteria that says "Choose any 4th level (or lower) sorcerer spell you know." At the time of *choice* you aren't casting the spell, you're looking at your spells known list. And you're spells known list has it as a 5th level spell. You don't get to actually *cast* the spell until you've chosen it, and its not a valid choice, so you can't apply the feat as you cast it. This trick might work for a Spirit Shaman who obtains the spell, (and has a 1st level spell on the Sorcerer list) because they actually treat spells with metamagic feats on them as being one of their "spells known". (and thus could pick a Sanctum Arcane Fusion as one of their spells known for the day) Except the 4th level spell also has to be a sorcerer spell.
RadicalTaoist 11-29-06, 08:57 AM	I believe it was RadicalTaoist who once said, "Abuse that sanctum spell, abuse it good!" Little did he know... :mymy: What the hell was I thinking...Nicely done TG.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-29-06, 09:21 AM	This trick might work for a Spirit Shaman who obtains the spell, (and has a 1st level spell on the Sorcerer list) because they actually treat spells with metamagic feats on them as being one of their "spells known". (and thus could pick a Sanctum Arcane Fusion as one of their spells known for the day) Funny. That's the first thing I thought of this morning. Getting the spell on the list though... and getting around the "choose any "sorcerer" spell you know" part might be difficult.
Todd 11-29-06, 09:42 AM	Hmm. Would Arcane Preparation help at all? Just prep a single use of the Sanctum modified Arcane Fusion. You might be able to skip on Rapid Metamagic feat too. Or what about a Drake-Helm from Eberron? It adds spells to your list ... if the version in the helm already has Sanctum Spell applied to it this might work.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-29-06, 09:44 AM	Hmm. Would Arcane Preparation help at all? Just prep a single use of the Sanctum modified Arcane Fusion. You might be able to skip on Rapid Metamagic feat too. Or what about a Drake-Helm from Eberron? It adds spells to your list ... if the version in the helm already has Sanctum Spell applied to it this might work. I originally used arcane preparation, but then changed it to rapid metamagic. I'm not sure which helps make the trick more RAW secure...
Tweedledope 11-29-06, 09:56 AM	Hmm....assuming level 20 with CL 20. Shapechange -> Choker Get full-round actions/round. Since this is all taking up 1 full-round action... 1) Follow TG's steps. 2) Now double it. 3) Congratulations, you have done infinity twice. -=TD=- Edit: Wait for it...wait for it...yep, that's Errata I hear coming.
Think0028 11-29-06, 10:30 AM	Any chance you could use Arcane Thesis trickery to get Arcane Fusion down?
GaffeR 11-29-06, 12:26 PM	Is the extra spell granted by this trick necessarily first level, or did I miss something?
Surreal 11-29-06, 12:39 PM	Sometimes I wake up in the mornings, check the boards, and think to myself "oh geez, TG just made another post about something I probably don't understand. Guess I'll add it to my links anyways." ...athough really most of that is because I'm not terribly familar with psionics or high level magics or ToB... why am I here again?
RadicalTaoist 11-29-06, 12:40 PM	Waaaait a second...if Arcane Fusion only looks at your spells known and doesn't cost any slots...and Rapid Metamagic makes metamagic a standard action for sorcs...what's keeping you from metamagicking that 4th and 1st level spell as much as you want?
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 11-29-06, 12:48 PM	Although I think that this is a neat idea, I'm not entirely convinced that it works. Sure, the Sanctum spelled spell counts as a 4th level spell, but you still don't 'know' a 4th level Arcane Fusion. So I don't see this working.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 11-29-06, 01:05 PM	Waaaait a second...if Arcane Fusion only looks at your spells known and doesn't cost any slots...and Rapid Metamagic makes metamagic a standard action for sorcs...what's keeping you from metamagicking that 4th and 1st level spell as much as you want? You do realize that I made a thread detailing exactly that line of thought? http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=728842 ......and you responded to it.....twice. :ahem:
Rathmun 11-29-06, 01:14 PM	Metaspell. I don't remember the source, but this feat adds a spell to your list of spells known as a spell allready modified by one other metamagic feat that you have and with the spell level adjustment reduced by one to a minimum of zero. metaspell sanctum arcane fusion. it appears on your list of spells known as a 4th level spell. NOW the trick works. @V: Eh, isn't that what I just pointed out? Metaspell lets you add sanctum arcane fusion to your list of spells known.
fil kearney 11-29-06, 01:16 PM	I can see arguing that if you have to apply sanctum each time you choose fusion within the fusion it's not a fourth level spell (since yer not actually casting it, yer choosing it). Alternatively, could the sorceror put a sanctum'd arcane fusion specifically as a known spell.. much like one could place a quickened magic missle on his list of spells known? as long as he's not in his sanctum, wouldn't RAW agree he would be able to choose the S'dAF as a fourth level spell-- because he already knows it as sanctum'd, and therefore is a 4th level spell out of his sanctum? oops! jinx, rathmun! *high five*
NineInchNall 11-29-06, 02:06 PM	Edit: Wait for it...wait for it...yep, that's Errata I hear coming. Errata? We haven't seen new errata since Tome of Magic. I'd be quite surprised if we see any new errata. Ever.
Hanniball 11-29-06, 03:52 PM	weak fool! you need to learn the wonders of caffeine and late night anime on cartoon network. one day you will join us on the darkside and your training shall be complete.... P.S. we have candy and t-shirts over here on the dark side. I will never succumb to your petty attempts at coercing me to the dark si...wait did you say candy? ...athough really most of that is because I'm not terribly familar with psionics or high level magics or ToB... why am I here again? Why are you here!? My god man, to guide the blind to power with the might of your comprehensive lists of stuff! To give the power of optimization back to the people, so they may do their own research and construct their own build made infinately easier by the greatness of your creations. In short: Your dedication to compilation is a station that the nations have much appreciation. Word. Metaspell. I don't remember the source, but this feat adds a spell to your list of spells known as a spell allready modified by one other metamagic feat that you have and with the spell level adjustment reduced by one to a minimum of zero. This feat seems perfect for this little problem. Does anyone know where it is from?
Todd 11-29-06, 03:57 PM	WotC has accelerated the release schedule so much that I doubt that they have as much time for errata these days. Just like new products require development, playtesting, and such ... so do most errata changes. I'm sure that they have a formal process in place for producing non-trivial changes ... and I'm equally sure that it's a pain in the tail for a developer to do. Those same dev's are usually two or more products past whatever is on the shelves and needed errata these days so not only would they have to take the time they have to re-familiarize themselves with the in print edition vs all the various versions that were in their head in the orginal dev cycle ... and all that while they are under tighter deadlines to get the new stuff out.
Edea 11-29-06, 04:01 PM	Or learn sanctum greater arcane fusion? Use it to cast another sanctum greater arcane fusion and celerity.
DBoot 11-29-06, 04:12 PM	Tweedledope: Or Greater Arcane Fusion (Arcane Fusion, Arcane Fusion) and then loop. With a Shapechange and a Choker, Quadruple infinity. Use Sanctum Spell with both Greater and Lesser, and a Choker and you get: Greater (Greater (Greater(), Lesser(Lesser(), Lvl 1), Lesser(Lesser(), Lvl 1)) 6 x infinity, is it?
Douglasm 11-29-06, 04:33 PM	Use Sanctum Spell with both Greater and Lesser, and a Choker and you get: Greater (Greater (Greater(), Lesser(Lesser(), Lvl 1), Lesser(Lesser(), Lvl 1)) 6 x infinity, is it? No, I think that one is infinity squared.
NineInchNall 11-29-06, 04:36 PM	So ... 1. Greater --> (Greater, Lesser) --> (Greater, Lesser, 1st) 2. ( (Greater, Lesser, 1st), (Lesser, 1st), 1st) ) Number 2 expands infinitely. So we get an arbitrarily large number of 4th level and 1st level spells. I want an arbitrarily large number of 9th level spells, damn it! There's gotta be a way to get a single Greater to expand to (Greater, Greater). :twitch:
dog45 11-29-06, 04:42 PM	No, I think that one is infinity squared. Yeah but...doesn't infinity squared equal infinity?
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 11-29-06, 04:44 PM	:nonono: let's get some further proof before we start expounding.
Hanniball 11-29-06, 04:46 PM	There's gotta be a way to get a single Greater to expand to (Greater, Greater) According the Complete Arcane, I believe it would be Superior Arcane Fusion. This is based off of Invisibility->Greater->Superior. However, this would require DM intervention.
LordMongoose 11-29-06, 04:58 PM	Yeah but...doesn't infinity squared equal infinity? Technically, what this actually is is infinity to the infinity power (because each infinity that splits off yields a similarly infinite number of infinites), which is indeterminate (this is different from being undefined. Undefined just means infinity. Indeterminate is bad.). But let's not get ahead of ourselves :D. Congratulations, the game has just been broken with four feats, no rules controversy of any sort whatsoever, and character level 8. Well done, gentlemen.
Aegeu 11-29-06, 05:10 PM	:clap: :clap: :clap: Ye gods, infinite infinities. Even Pun-Pun only has a single infinity for each stat.
DarknessEternal 11-29-06, 05:15 PM	You can't dent infinity. Infinity is infinite. There's no such thing as half-infinity, double infinity, or infinity squared. The very definition makes it impossible to modify.
Douglasm 11-29-06, 05:20 PM	And a single Globe of Invulnerability negates all inifinity ^ infinity spells with no trouble at all :D
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 11-29-06, 05:21 PM	There are different kinds of infinitity; however, and different rates of infinity as well. Some infinities are indeed more than others, but that's a whole 'nother branch of mathematics. Other than the Dm allowing a Sorceror to learn a 4th level Sanctum Arcane Fusion, I don't see this working. I've also looked up metaspell, and have not seen it.
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 11-29-06, 05:25 PM	Well thats it then. Theres nothing left of D&D apart from: People who can cast sheild. Golems. Force dragons... yep, thats all folks.
psly4mne 11-29-06, 05:39 PM	According to the Consolidated Feat Index, there is no Metaspell feat. Without the feat, you cannot have a Sanctum Arcane Fusion among your spells known and the trick does not work. As for the question of different infinities, it depends on the context. In set theory, it makes sense to talk about different infinite ordinals or cardinals. However, in fields such as analysis, one will often extend the real numbers by adding the points ±∞. In this case, ∞^2=∞. In this case, it makes sense to talk about cardinals, in which case ℵ0^ℵ0≠ℵ0, but ℵ0^2=ℵ0.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-29-06, 05:50 PM	:nonono: let's get some further proof before we start expounding. Hairs on a bobbin, Bill. Hairs on a bobbin. Here's attempt #1 at quieting your concerns. Not sure if this works, but we'll see. Expanded Spell Knowledge (Ex): At 2nd level, you can select one 0- or 1st-level arcane spell from your spellbook and add it to the list of arcane spells known for a spontaneous casting class, even if you can't yet spontaneously cast spells of that level.(In this case, you would know the spell but wouldn't be able to cast it until you had spell slots of the appropriate level.) You can add another spell from your spellbook to your list of spells known every two levels thereafter. At 4th level, this can be a 0-, 1st-, or 2nd-level spell. At 6th level, this can be any spell of 3rd level or lower. At 8th level, this spell can be of 4th level or lower, and at 10th level it can be of 5th level or lower. How do you get sanctum arcane fusion into your spellbook you say? Well... First lets get it on our list... Simple application of recaster or wyrm wizard. Next, lets make a scroll of sanctum arcane fusion, as per these rules: With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn’t need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell. Now we can use these rules: A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment. So we copy the spell on the scroll, which has the metamagic effect tacked on to it, to our spell book. Once it's in the spell book, we transfer it to our sorcerer's spells known, per the ultimate magus ability. But I'm not really sure this is entirely necessary...
Edea 11-29-06, 06:42 PM	So ... 1. Greater --> (Greater, Lesser) --> (Greater, Lesser, 1st) 2. ( (Greater, Lesser, 1st), (Lesser, 1st), 1st) ) Number 2 expands infinitely. So we get an arbitrarily large number of 4th level and 1st level spells. I want an arbitrarily large number of 9th level spells, damn it! There's gotta be a way to get a single Greater to expand to (Greater, Greater). :twitch: Prior to use of a celerity chain, you can use shapechange to turn into a gibbering orb (ELG pg 191). (Su) rays at will: dominate monster, energy drain, implosion, mordenkainen's disjunction, power word, kill, all 9th. Take an indeterminantly large number of extra standard actions, and blast the living crap out of anything in range. You should have Favor of the Martyr or Mark of the Dauntless handy. Sure, they're not spells, but I'll take infinite standard actions over infinite spells, 1st, 4th, or otherwise.
kilroo 11-29-06, 08:01 PM	Technically, what this actually is is infinity to the infinity power (because each infinity that splits off yields a similarly infinite number of infinites), which is indeterminate (this is different from being undefined. Undefined just means infinity. Indeterminate is bad.). That's one of the best mathematical definitions I've ever seen.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 11-29-06, 08:05 PM	So we copy the spell on the scroll, which has the metamagic effect tacked on to it, to our spell book. Once it's in the spell book, we transfer it to our sorcerer's spells known, per the ultimate magus ability. But I'm not really sure this is entirely necessary... Very good. I would probably propose something similar were I in your position. However, one fundamental question still exists. Is a Sanctum Arcane Fusion a spell? It has to be a spell to be added to a spell list or spells known.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-29-06, 08:35 PM	Very good. I would probably propose something similar were I in your position. However, one fundamental question still exists. Is a Sanctum Arcane Fusion a spell? It has to be a spell to be added to a spell list or spells known. What else would it be, if not a spell?
tsuyoshikentsu 11-29-06, 08:40 PM	HOLY F***. T_G, you have no idea what you've just done.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 11-29-06, 08:43 PM	What else would it be, if not a spell? A spell modified by a metamagic feat? And, as such the metamagic feat could not be transferred? I'm not saying that that is the right answer, this whole issue is ambiguous. Food for thought though, if metamagic feats can be handled in that way though, why would Wizards ever take metamagic feats, as just one Wizard far in the past had to make a metamagicked spell and turn it into a scroll, and then make one such scroll for everyone with that metamagic feat. As such, a Wizard with Arcane Thesis starts distributing his metamagicked spell, and suddenly that spell is very popular. :thinks:
Aegeu 11-29-06, 08:47 PM	If we can find out where Metaspell came from (because some people are having trouble finding it) then it gives us definite proof that Sanctum Arcane Fusion is a spell.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-29-06, 08:49 PM	HOLY F***. T_G, you have no idea what you've just done. On the contrary, tsuyoshikentsu, this is yet another piece in a little puzzle I like to call Pun-Pun. *TG ominously moves a chess piece and chuckles to himself quietly while Bach's Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor blares in the background.* :emp:
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-29-06, 08:51 PM	If we can find out where Metaspell came from (because some people are having trouble finding it) then it gives us definite proof that Sanctum Arcane Fusion is a spell. Google tells me it's from chronotrigger. Google might be lying... but I don't think this mysterious feat should be of concern.
Vikjunk 11-29-06, 09:09 PM	On the contrary, tsuyoshikentsu, this is yet another piece in a little puzzle I like to call Pun-Pun. *TG ominously moves a chess piece and chuckles to himself quietly while Bach's Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor blares in the background.* :emp: He might be talking about the Ultimate Magus loop hole you just found. Just copy any spell up to 5th level into your spellbook and it becomes a spell known with your spontaneous caster class even if you can’t cast normally with either class. You just made Ultimate Magus into Archivist lite.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 11-29-06, 09:22 PM	Google tells me it's from chronotrigger. Google might be lying... but I don't think this mysterious feat should be of concern. I'm still of the belief that a Sanctum Arcane Fusion is just a spell that's modified by Sanctum Spell, and as such when you add the spell to your spells known, you just add Arcane Fusion.
RadicalTaoist 11-29-06, 10:01 PM	You do realize that I made a thread detailing exactly that line of thought? http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=728842 ......and you responded to it.....twice. :ahem: Gah, you did. I'm losing my memory in my old age.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-29-06, 10:10 PM	Lets get this debate on the right track, by defining what a "known" spell is. This is thankfully provided for us, quite clearly: Known Spell: A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare. For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks. For sorcerers and bards, knowing a spell means having selected it when acquiring new spells as a benefit of level advancement. From this quote, things are looking pretty bleak. It's almost required that one has the modified spell written in their spell book -- and then transfers it over via the method I described above. Perhaps its time to look at some alternative methods; hopefully the end will be similar (ie infinite spells in a single std. action). Versatile Spell Caster You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd level spell slots to cast any 3rd level spell he knows. The method: Cast a twinned arcane fusion. Pick two fourth level spells you know. Somehow convert the spells cast into spell slots, then combine to cast arcane fusion once more. Net gain: 2 1st level spells per iteration. I'm having difficulty thinking of a way to do this, however. I'd like to be able to absorb spells cast and transform them into spell slots. Or transfer the spells cast to a magic item and then retreive them. There's so many spell-slot manipulation feats that I don't even have access to though... would someone care to quote the arcane manipulation for me? I don't have LEoF... nor do I even know what that stands for.
deathwishjoe 11-29-06, 10:13 PM	LEoF stands for lost empires of faerun. used to have it but lost it just before a move and its all gone. *sad*
Edea 11-29-06, 10:24 PM	It lets you turn up to three existing arcane spell slots into a certain number of lower level spell slots when preparing spells for the day. 0 counts as 1/2, so breaking down a 1st level slots gives two 0 level slots. Sum of spell levels of new slots must = sum of spell levels of old slots. Otherwise, unlimited breakdown. However, you can only do this when preparing spells. Example: You choose to break down a 4th, 5th, and 6th level spell slot while preparing spells. 4 + 5 + 6 = 15. Say you need lots of copies of feather fall or something. You need lots of 1st level spell slots. With this feat, by sacrificing the 4th, 5th, and 6th for the day, you can prepare an extra 15 1st level spells. Or 7 2nd level spells and a 1st level spell. Or 5 3rd level spells, etc. RAW note: You -must- have Wiz1 to take the feat, but it doesn't say whose spell slots you're breaking down when preparing your spells. RAI obviously it's talking about wizard spells, but RAW it looks like any class the character has which is capable of casting arcane spells would benefit from the breakdown, -but- only when preparing spells for the day (that's the part killing this I believe).
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 11-29-06, 10:27 PM	There's so many spell-slot manipulation feats that I don't even have access to though... would someone care to quote the arcane manipulation for me? I don't have LEoF... nor do I even know what that stands for. Arcane manipulation When you prepare spells, you can break down up to three existing arcane spell slots to create a specified number of lower-level spell slots........The sum of the levels of all the new spell slots must be equal in level to the original. The rest of it basically says that 0 level spells count as 1/2 level for this purpose, and that these spell slots remain this way until the next time you cast spells, at which point you can change them back to normal or break them up again. edit: beaten
Edea 11-29-06, 10:34 PM	Is it possible to get arcane fusion to accept a shadow illusioned silent image mimicking anything higher than 1st level spells?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-29-06, 10:39 PM	Thanks guys. I don't think it's going to be of much use, but I'll keep it in mind. Upon review I don't think the versatile spell caster + twin trick will work either... it's not an infinite loop at least. The problem: so I twin the first one and generate a 5th level spell to cast -- the second one won't be twinned and so the chain is broken. Interestingly enough there's definately a bunch of room for abuse left in arcane fusion. If only there was an equivalent of Link Power for arcane, we'd be set. See, the spell states that you choose two 4th level powers. It makes no mention that these spells can or cannot be later modified by a metamagic feat. Since they explictly do not consume any additional spell slots, an arbitrary amount of metamagic may be applied to these spells without additional cost to the sorcerer. Now if you don't like that, then you'll have to agree with me that the spells are modified prior to being selected, in which case you can generate an infinite number of spells. Take your pick: arbitrary metamagic... or infinite spells.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-29-06, 10:41 PM	Is it possible to get arcane fusion to accept a shadow illusioned silent image mimicking anything higher than 1st level spells? Why yes, yes it would. See my post above. To my knowledge, one cannot mimick things of the universal school, which means that wouldn't be an angle for blowing things up to infinity. I'll look into it all the same.
Edea 11-29-06, 10:45 PM	Now if you don't like that, then you'll have to agree with me that the spells are modified prior to being selected, in which case you can generate an infinite number of spells. Take your pick: arbitrary metamagic... or infinite spells. Most DMs will probably pick banning arcane fusion and/or the Sanctum Spell feat. However, I believe you were correct in stating that the spell is capable of generating other spells indefinitely so long as Sanctum Spell truly lowers the spell's level to 4th and the spell is learned in its metamagicked form. A problem might be...when you go back to your sanctum. Shouldn't it suddenly take a 6th level spells known slot? That's...awkward. Ahh, the silent image was supposed to be doing the blowing up, I wasn't even thinking of mimicking arcane fusions with it. Dastardly idea, if arcane fusion were Evo or Con. Oh, great...please, WotC, don't print a feat that changes the school of a spell, for the love of Jesus.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-29-06, 10:53 PM	A problem might be...when you go back to your sanctum. Shouldn't it suddenly take a 6th level spells known slot? That's...awkward. It's the level that's modified by the feat, not the slot... well it does increase the slot by 1, IIRC, but that's not the point. No matter what the slot consumed will be 6th level, the level of the spell for all intents and purposes will be either 4 or 6 (5 +/- 1)
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 11-29-06, 11:07 PM	Interestingly enough there's definately a bunch of room for abuse left in arcane fusion. If only there was an equivalent of Link Power for arcane, we'd be set. See, the spell states that you choose two 4th level powers. It makes no mention that these spells can or cannot be later modified by a metamagic feat. Since they explictly do not consume any additional spell slots, an arbitrary amount of metamagic may be applied to these spells without additional cost to the sorcerer. Now if you don't like that, then you'll have to agree with me that the spells are modified prior to being selected, in which case you can generate an infinite number of spells. Take your pick: arbitrary metamagic... or infinite spells. Could you expand on your second paragraph? I'm not entirely sure what you mean. modified prior to being selected?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-29-06, 11:27 PM	It works one of two ways: When selecting your 4th level spells you can say that a sanctumed arcane fusion counts as a 4th level spell because you apply its effects before determining whether or not it's a fourth level spell or not. OR You determine the effects of metamagic on a spell's level AFTER you select the spell. This means you select any old 4th level spell to cast, but you can then heap metamagic onto it (heightening it, extending it, sanctuming it, whatever). Since the spell doesn't consume any spell slots you don't need to worry about what spell slot it would consume with all those metamagic feats attached. Now do you see the "choice?" Either you say that an orb of fire heightened to 9th level is 9th level when you're picking which spells to use from the Arcane Fusion effect, or you see it as a 4th level spell and apply the heightened effects once you cast it. If you favor the first, you get infinite spells in a single std. action. If you favor the second... well it gets ugly. I may be able to produce an infinite number of spells regardless of interpretation... which would be ever so amusing to me.
Think0028 11-29-06, 11:37 PM	There are two more possibilities: 3) Pick 1 4th level sorcerer spell you know means you can only cast it plain vanilla, no exceptions. 4) Metamagic away, but no slot reductions apply.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 11-29-06, 11:48 PM	It works one of two ways: When selecting your 4th level spells you can say that a sanctumed arcane fusion counts as a 4th level spell because you apply its effects before determining whether or not it's a fourth level spell or not. OR You determine the effects of metamagic on a spell's level AFTER you select the spell. This means you select any old 4th level spell to cast, but you can then heap metamagic onto it (heightening it, extending it, sanctuming it, whatever). Since the spell doesn't consume any spell slots you don't need to worry about what spell slot it would consume with all those metamagic feats attached. Now do you see the "choice?" Either you say that an orb of fire heightened to 9th level is 9th level when you're picking which spells to use from the Arcane Fusion effect, or you see it as a 4th level spell and apply the heightened effects once you cast it. If you favor the first, you get infinite spells in a single std. action. If you favor the second... well it gets ugly. I may be able to produce an infinite number of spells regardless of interpretation... which would be ever so amusing to me. Hmm, this has got me thinking Sorcerers and Bards Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot. But because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell. If the spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.) For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell. When you cast this spell, choose any 1st-level sorceror spell you know and any 4th-level or lower sorceror spell you know. Neither spell chosen can have a casting time longer than 1 standard action. Both spells take effect in the order you choose, as if you had cast them one after the other using only one standard action, but you don't expend any additional spell slots to cast those spells. Effectively, you cast two other spells using the spell's 5th-level spell slot. Each of the chosen spells has its normal effect, including range, target, area, duration, saving throw, and spell resistance as appropriate to the spell's level. If either spell requires a material component, focus, XP cost, or other special cost, these must be used or paid as part of the casting of arcane fusion. The problem here is that these two lines from Arcane Fusion don't mean the same thing. In the first instance the spells just take effect, which means that you don't count as casting them, which means that you can't apply metamagic feats, but the second one says that you effectively cast two other spells, which means that you should be able to apply metamagic feats to them.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-29-06, 11:48 PM	There are two more possibilities: 3) Pick 1 4th level sorcerer spell you know means you can only cast it plain vanilla, no exceptions. 4) Metamagic away, but no slot reductions apply. Here's some more spell text: Both spells take effect in the order you choose, as if you had cast them one after the other using only one standard action, but you don't expend any additional spell slots to cast those spells. Given this: They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. You cast the spells, and therefore can apply metamagic to them when you cast them. Whether or not slot reductions apply is irrelevant. No slots are consumed, so even if it would consume a 400th level slot, the sorcerer never feels the difference.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-29-06, 11:49 PM	Wow... um great minds think and post alike? That was just uncanny.
Think0028 11-29-06, 11:52 PM	Here's some more spell text: Given this: You cast the spells, and therefore can apply metamagic to them when you cast them. Whether or not slot reductions apply is irrelevant. No slots are consumed, so even if it would consume a 400th level slot, the sorcerer never feels the difference. Ok, that makes sense. Hmm, this has got me thinking The problem here is that these two lines from Arcane Fusion don't mean the same thing. In the first instance the spells just take effect, which means that you don't count as casting them, which means that you can't apply metamagic feats, but the second one says that you effectively cast two other spells, which means that you should be able to apply metamagic feats to them. Maybe I'm making stuff up, but it may simply mean that the spells are completed in the order you choose. I'm just fishing, though.
Tenebrous_Sage 11-30-06, 12:07 AM	T.G. do you ever rest?
Endarire 11-30-06, 03:59 AM	TG, have you considered becoming a lawyer? -EE
Tenebrous_Sage 11-30-06, 04:40 AM	*TG ominously moves a chess piece and chuckles to himself quietly while Bach's Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor blares in the background.*T.G. has good taste.
RadicalTaoist 11-30-06, 09:01 AM	You know, if Arcane Fusion didn't specify sorceror spells, psi-magic transparency would make it the most broken spell for any cerebremancer ever.
Todd 11-30-06, 11:59 AM	You know, if Arcane Fusion didn't specify sorceror spells, psi-magic transparency would make it the most broken spell for any cerebremancer ever. Hmm. Still might be. Dweomer of Transference Evocation Level: Cleric 4, sorcerer/wizard 4 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 minute Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One willing psionic creature Duration: 1 round/level Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) With this spell, you form a radiating corona around the head of a psionic ally, then convert some of your spells into psionic power points. When you finish casting dweomer of transference, a red-orange glow surrounds the psionic creature’s head. For the duration of the spell, any spells cast at the subject don’t have their usual effect, instead converting themselves harmlessly into psionic energy that the subject can use as energy for psionic powers. You can cast any spell you like at the subject, even area spells, effect spells, and spells for whom the subject would ordinarily not be a legitimate target. The spells don’t do anything other than provide the subject with power points, but you must still cast them normally, obeying the component and range requirements listed in the description of each spell. For each spell you cast into the dweomer of transference, the psionic creature gets temporary power points, according to the following table. The transference isn’t perfectly efficient. The temporary power points acquired through a dweomer of transference dissipate after 1 hour if they haven’t already been spent. Spell Level Power Points Acquired 0 0 1st 1 2nd 2 3rd 4 4th 6 5th 8 6th 10 7th 12 8th 14 9th 16
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-30-06, 12:35 PM	I had thought about using that, but unfortunately there's no re-conversion power as far as I know. I'd like to convert to power points, reconvert back to spell slots, then use versatile spell to make a 5th level slot and continue the loop. Alas...
Todd 11-30-06, 01:13 PM	I was just thinking that as part of the infinite loop that would be a place for the extra 1st level spell to go. Infinite PP.
RadicalTaoist 11-30-06, 01:46 PM	I have indirectly authored yet another infinite pp loop. I have GOT to keep my mouth shut.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 11-30-06, 02:32 PM	It works one of two ways: When selecting your 4th level spells you can say that a sanctumed arcane fusion counts as a 4th level spell because you apply its effects before determining whether or not it's a fourth level spell or not. When you cast a spell, I believe that you decide before you cast that spell whether its metamagicked or not. You can't start casting a standard action and then in the middle of it decide to extend to to a full-round. Similarly if you had Arcane Spellsurge on, you couldn't cast a spell as a swift action and in the middle of it decide to complete it as a Standard Action. So you must cast the spell and apply the metamagic at the same time. You still have to choose a 4th level spell with Arcane Fusion, you choose that spell and cast Sanctum spell with it at the same time, so there's no choosing Arcane Fusion again. Now, is the argument that since a metamagicked spell takes up a higher level slot, but since Arcane Fusion doesn't use any slots that you could apply as much metamagic that you wanted to it?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-30-06, 02:52 PM	Now, is the argument that since a metamagicked spell takes up a higher level slot, but since Arcane Fusion doesn't use any slots that you could apply as much metamagic that you wanted to it? Yes, that is the argument.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-30-06, 02:59 PM	So you must cast the spell and apply the metamagic at the same time. You still have to choose a 4th level spell with Arcane Fusion, you choose that spell and cast Sanctum spell with it at the same time, so there's no choosing Arcane Fusion again. Minor nit-pick. There's no such thing as "casting" sanctum spell. You either modify the spell with it or you don't. I had not considered the application of the feat to be simultaneous with the casting, but it makes sense now. In that case, if the modification is simultaneous, what prevents one from viewing the effect of the spell (which is a 4th level effect) and then choosing based on the spell effect? I don't think the simultaneous application of metamagic precludes the infinite spell interpretation. Only the post-application of metamagic precludes that interpretation, and you've demonstrated quite well that applying metamagic after casting doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Naramyth 11-30-06, 03:01 PM	When you cast a spell, I believe that you decide before you cast that spell whether its metamagicked or not. You can't start casting a standard action and then in the middle of it decide to extend to to a full-round. Similarly if you had Arcane Spellsurge on, you couldn't cast a spell as a swift action and in the middle of it decide to complete it as a Standard Action. Actually (whips out his PHB), pg. 143, Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack: After your first attack, you can decide you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how your first attack turns out.... Granted this applies to melee attacks versus full attacks but its something that may be needed to be considered.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 11-30-06, 03:15 PM	In that case, if the modification is simultaneous, what prevents one from viewing the effect of the spell (which is a 4th level effect) and then choosing based on the spell effect? What I think that I'm saying is that the spell is not a Sanctum Spell until you cast it as one. For instance, say you casted a 5th level sanctum spell outside your sanctum, when you decided to cast this spell, it still took up a 5th level slot, not a 4th one. Similarly, when you use Arcane Fusion, you choose a 4th level spell, and then you choose how to cast it.
Edea 11-30-06, 04:48 PM	At the very least, this is a possible house rule for a DM who doesn't want to fix the problem by simply banning the arcane fusion spell or the Sanctum Spell feat. CharOp boards, however, I think what I'm saying falls under "extremely shaky rules lawyering" and really isn't an actual argument against using the spell the way the OP is indicating; I say we still have infinite magic missiles/silent images and Arcane Thesis madness. ======================================== Step one: Cast arcane fusion. You can Quicken it if you want, this interpretation doesn't care how long it took to actually cast the original. Step two: Let's suppose you in fact actually cast two more spells as a single standard action as a result of arcane fusion, without expending the spell slots normally necessary of course (that's the point of the spell and the thread). One chosen is a 1st level spell (whatever), and the second one (using Rapid Metamagic to apply Sanctum Spell to the second one, as you are by the above assumption actually casting the spell) is a sanctum arcane fusion. Sanctum Spell does not change any parameter other than the sanctum arcane fusion's effective spell level, so we obey what arcane fusion says in its description for this second casting. Choose any 1st level spell you know and any 4th level or lower spell you know...both spells take effect in the order you choose as if you had cast them one after another using only one standard action...Each of the chosen spells has its normal effect... Sadly, you don't know sanctum arcane fusion. Let's say you did. So, you decide to instead cast a sanctum arcane fusion and you modify the already known sanctum arcane fusion you chose for your second spell with another metamagic feat (or choose not to modify it). Well, there's a problem; the spell states you cast these two selected spells as if you were using only one standard action...but you already used your standard action when the original arcane fusion took effect for this round. You need a source of extra standard actions. Celerity should work, but not in any fusion chain, you'll just twiddle your thumbs ad infinitum as you expend the extra standard action granted by each celerity with the effects of the new sanctum greater arcane fusion. Someone else needs to be giving you the standard actions (quite possible, surely; we need a bard with the correct song, maybe?). If you're not actually casting the spells within arcane fusion (I think RAW you are, but assuming not), then you can't apply any metamagic to those effects, just the arcane fusion itself (PHB pg. 88, ...[a sorcerer or bard] can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them.), so once again you wouldn't be able to insert another arcane fusion into the original casting unless you knew the spell sanctum arcane fusion as a sorcerer, and you'd still be short on standard actions as you follow the spell description as normal. ======================================= Again, this isn't an actual argument, it's a suggested house rule for a DM who finds his players suddenly decided to take learning metamagicked spells as a sorcerer much more seriously after reading this (I know I would).
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 11-30-06, 05:37 PM	Actually (whips out his PHB), pg. 143, Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack: After your first attack, you can decide you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how your first attack turns out.... Granted this applies to melee attacks versus full attacks but its something that may be needed to be considered. I appreciate your effort. Looking to other sources may not be necessary because of the line Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them Let's say you did. So, you decide to instead cast a sanctum arcane fusion and you modify the already known sanctum arcane fusion you chose for your second spell with another metamagic feat (or choose not to modify it). Well, there's a problem; the spell states you cast these two selected spells as if you were using only one standard action...but you already used your standard action when the original arcane fusion took effect for this round. You need a source of extra standard actions. I don't see the problem in this case. The spell says that Both spells take effect in the order that you choose, as if you had cast them one after another using only one standard action, but you don't spend any additional spellslots to cast those spells. The spell says you cast them as if you were using only one Standard Action. Which is very bad wording to be honest, because it assumes that you're using standard actions to cast spells. But regardless, you don't actually need standard actions. So if you do have a Sanctum Arcane Fusion as a spell known, then you can go about the infinite loop as proposed by the OP If you're not actually casting the spells within arcane fusion (I think RAW you are, but assuming not), then you can't apply any metamagic to those effects, just the arcane fusion itself I've changed my mind on this issue. While indeed the first part of this spell says that the spells take effect in the order you choose, the important line is Effectively you cast two other spells so indeed you must be casting them. Again, this isn't an actual argument, it's a suggested house rule for a DM who finds his players suddenly decided to take learning metamagicked spells as a sorcerer much more seriously after reading this (I know I would). If I were to make a houserule, I'd say that you can't use Arcane Fusion to generate loops in any form. This is how I handle Psionics. Players are free to use whatever combos they want, but no infinite or extremely large ridiculous loops.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-30-06, 06:08 PM	Okay, so lets get this straight... Here's how I now interpret arcane fusion to behave: Cast the spell Select two spells from your known list, one of 4th level or lower, one of 1st level or lower. Cast those two spells. Casting of those two spells is subsumed in the action of casting the orginal arcane fusion. The selection, is also subsumed in the original action of casting. Effectively 4 things happen in a single action, yet the causality is as follows: cast arcane fusion, select 2 spells, cast one selected spell, and cast the other spell. First we must agree on the sequence. Once we agree, only then can we proceed rationally. I'm pretty certain that the above sequence fits the description as best as possible (and I even think it fits the intent). Now, to break the intent, without breaking the RAW. First, I'd like to say that according to the progression I show above, the effective level of the spells being selected by arcane fusion is not necessarily the same as the level of the spell being cast. That is to say that metamagic is applied after selection, and simultaneous to casting. This pretty much eliminates the possiblity of infinite spells, via the method I originally posted. C'est dommage. It should be noted that spell slots and spell level have little do with eachother, other than the fact that a Xth level spell typically inhabits and Xth level spell slot. Given the following piece of rules text: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. The obvious exceptions being: heighten & sanctum spell. In those cases, primary text trumps secondary text. So we should be entirely free to apply "free" metamagic to these spells. Persistification is now incredibly easy for a sorcerer. I consider this to be a by-product effect of this rules analysis, but it's a potent one. The free application of metamagic will hopefully propel us to finding an alternative route to generating infinite spells, if not at least a large finite quantity of them. So now, as long as we can agree on the sequence aforementioned, we probably should start looking for the following effects and start pondering their interactions. Feel free to add to this list as you see fit. The goal is to cast arcane fusion once more. Twin spell Repeat spell heighten spell sanctum spell versatile spell casting dweomer of transferance.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 11-30-06, 06:36 PM	Echoing Spell from Secrets of Xendrik could potentially be of use, but perhaps not since the spell comes back an hour later. That feat by itself might generate an infinite combo. However. if you cast a Twinned Arcane Fusion, what then? Twin Spell says that the effects happen simutaneously. So, we use our Twinned Arcane Fusion and choose 2 4th level spells simutaneously. Then, couldn't we then use Versatile Spellcaster and use both of those 4th level spells to cast Arcane Fusion? As a side bonus we have 2 1st level spells to use. If that works then that was extremely easy. :mymy: edit: Ah darn, Versatile spellcaster specifies spell slots. If we could just turn the spells we get from Arcane Fusion into spell slots.
RadicalTaoist 11-30-06, 08:47 PM	You know, sooner or later I'm going to abuse various metamagic feats and PrC class abilities that treat spells as levels higher than the slot that's expended, and make the cerebremancer from hell with a ridiculous amount of pp from Dweomer of Transference, fueled by 1st level spell slots expended as Xth level spells.
tsuyoshikentsu 11-30-06, 08:54 PM	You know, sooner or later I'm going to abuse various metamagic feats and PrC class abilities that treat spells as levels higher than the slot that's expended, and make the cerebremancer from hell with a ridiculous amount of pp from Dweomer of Transference, fueled by 1st level spell slots expended as Xth level spells.If the Sanctum Spell can be applied multiple times via T_G's, then casting it in your sanctum would do that.
Edea 11-30-06, 08:55 PM	CustServ just tells me you can't learn spells with the Sanctum Spell feat already modifying them, and then proceeds to say "so the combination won't work." :/ I asked 4 different questions in the email and only got an answer to the first one (which I think is wholly incorrect), followed by basically DM Rule 0. I did a better job than that! I dunno if it's even worth posting it up here (if it is, just ask). Oh well, as least the answer was prompt...so this is why the CO board pays so little heed to customer service -_-.
Todd 11-30-06, 08:59 PM	First we must agree on the sequence. Once we agree, only then can we proceed rationally. I'm pretty certain that the above sequence fits the description as best as possible (and I even think it fits the intent).[/list] This is an important point and I think that I'm going to disagree with your analysis. In my mind Arcane Fusion is like a magical version of a full attack. It’s similar in that it’s both one thing and separate things at the same time. In a full attack you can attack different targets with different individual attacks. You can even use different attack types, say a direct attack at full BAB, then a disarm attack, and finally a trip attack ... all in one full attack action. Yet certain attack modifiers, like Power Attack, will affect every attack in the sequence. Arcane Fusion I think works the same way. Yes mechanically you have something like Arcane Fusion – first spell – second spell ... but they are all part of one larger meta-action or meta-spell if you will. I don’t think that you can modify just part of the meta-spell by itself, you have to affect the whole package. If you Heighten an Arcane Fusion by 1 level then you effectively heighten both of the other spells by 1 level as well.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 11-30-06, 09:38 PM	Hmm, I've been thinking. I'm looking at Energy Transformation Field from Spell Compendium. It looks as if Energy Transformation Field generates an infinite loop of its own if it's tied to Arcane Fusion. Since it takes 5 levels to activate Arcane Fusion and the spell casts a 1st and a 4th for a total of five levels. Interestingly also, Greater Arcane Fusion would take 8 levels to activate, but it casts a 7th and a 4th for a total of 11 levels. I wonder if you can cast a Twinned Energy Transformation Field, and have both fields absorb the spell levels at the same time together. Also, I wonder if Earthbound spell(PHB2 metamagic feat) would be of use here, perhaps if we could get the 1 of the Energy Transformation field to cast Earthbound spells adjacent to it, that way they wouldn't be absorbed. Ah, here's my thinking. We have two Energy transformation fields in the same area. One of them continually casts Greater Arcane Fusion, this leads to an infinite loop. The other one, casts a Earthbound Arcane Fusion right next to it outside of both of the fields' range. Since the first Energy Transformation field is continually casting spells, the second field can continually cast Earthbound Arcane Fusions. Then, whenever a person stands on that spot, they suddenly benefit from infinite Arcane Fusions. I'm not sure if this works, but perhaps it will give everyone some ideas.
Think0028 11-30-06, 09:47 PM	Main problem is the last line: If two or more field spells share an overlapping area, each field has an equal chance of absorbing a spell effect in that area. That, and it'd cost 10,000 gp and 500 xp to set up.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 11-30-06, 10:08 PM	Main problem is the last line: If two or more field spells share an overlapping area, each field has an equal chance of absorbing a spell effect in that area. That, and it'd cost 10,000 gp and 500 xp to set up. Ah, thanks for pointing that out. I'm seeing another problem. Greater Arcane Fusion says that you choose any 4th level spell that you know and any 7th level spell that you know. I'm not sure if the line from Energy Transformation Field "the cast spell functions as if cast by you in terms of duration and all level based effects." would allow the field to cast 4th and 7th level spells that you know. *scrathes head :thinks: *
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 11-30-06, 10:45 PM	Perhaps a trick here would be to use Mnemonic Enhancer. Add this as a Sorceror Spell known, and find some way to make it a Standard Action to cast. Cast a Twinned Arcane Fusion to cast 2 twinned Mnemonic Enhancers, which yields 4 Mnemonic Enhancers. or 4 3rd level prepared spells. If there's a way to get those prepared spells to count as 4th level, you could use Versatile Spellcaster and cast Arcane Fusion again.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 12-01-06, 09:41 AM	I wonder what the effect would be of using Share Familiar spells to cast Arcane Fusion as a touch spell and then Reach Spell+Chain Spell that spell back onto yourself. Would the spells cast by Arcane Fusion still count as being cast by yourself? If so, this trick essentially adds more Arcane Fusions for yourself, but I don't think that it leads to an infinite combo. I was also looking at Affinity field. People only are affected by powers and spells of 3rd level. However, with Sanctum Spell, normally 4th level spells would count as 3rd level. Perhaps you could accomplish this with a Simulacrum and/or a Cohort. Your cohort (or whoever can manifest affinity field does so) Cast your Chained Twinned Reach Spell Arcane Fusion on your familiar which in turn is chained to yourself, and cohort. Your cohort uses the 4th level spell given to cast a Sanctum Spell Celerity which since it's outside of its Sanctum is a 3rd level spell, and everyone in the affinity Field gets a free standard action............ No darn....., that doesn't work. That just gives you a very large number of Standard actions. Back to the drawing board. :bored:
Kamikaze Chicken 12-01-06, 12:01 PM	its been eating at me since i started reading this thread..... There is an artifice rinfusion, called concurrent infusion and it allows you to cast multiple infusions all at once. I think you do so with out isoing up the infusion slots. I know artificers can't cast sorc spells, but they do have imbue spell item, which allows them to make items into one use wands. Now is there any way to possibly have an artificer make a one use item to circumvent the spell slot requirements posed here? i think what my mind is trying to think up is a way to make this trick work, by outsourcing some of the magical energies to a magical item, thus opening up more rules for abuse via artificer. I dont kn0ow if this line of thought helps, just thinking out loud here. KAMIKAZE! :chicken:
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 12-01-06, 01:03 PM	I'm looking at concurrent infusions, it only casts 3 1st level infusions and is a 4th level infusion itself. That doesn't look to me like that'll work; however, I'm not too familiar with the Artificer, and perhaps there're tricks out there that others could point out. What needs to occur to get infinite spells is Cast Arcane Fusion-> Convert Spells gained from Arcane Fusion into something else->Convert back into Arcane Fusion And, that converting and converting back is what's getting me. I'm not sure if you could tell Energy Transformation field what to cast in cases where you have spells like Anyspell, miracle, ect. And if only you could tell Energy Transformation to cast metamagic spells. That would make things much easier.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-01-06, 01:59 PM	There have been some very interesting things said, since last I visted this thread. I'm sans books at the moment, so I'm not sure how much I can contribute... This is an important point and I think that I'm going to disagree with your analysis. In my mind Arcane Fusion is like a magical version of a full attack. It’s similar in that it’s both one thing and separate things at the same time. In a full attack you can attack different targets with different individual attacks. You can even use different attack types, say a direct attack at full BAB, then a disarm attack, and finally a trip attack ... all in one full attack action. Yet certain attack modifiers, like Power Attack, will affect every attack in the sequence. Arcane Fusion I think works the same way. Yes mechanically you have something like Arcane Fusion – first spell – second spell ... but they are all part of one larger meta-action or meta-spell if you will. I don’t think that you can modify just part of the meta-spell by itself, you have to affect the whole package. If you Heighten an Arcane Fusion by 1 level then you effectively heighten both of the other spells by 1 level as well. I think the analogy you use is flawed. While the actions required to cast the spells are not precisely defined, the fact that you must cast them within that action remains. When a spontaneous spell caster decides to cast a spell, regardless of what action it requires to do so, they can apply their metamagic feats to that spell, provided it's an eligible spell. Look at it this way: when you cast maximized timestop, are all your spells cast within that timestop maximized? No, because spells cast within the time stop are separate events. The same is true for arcane fusion. It explicitly states that the spells are triggered in the order you specify, which implies that there must be a causal separation to the events. Perhaps a trick here would be to use Mnemonic Enhancer This is unlikely. As you noted it would require some trickery to get mnemonic enhancer to be a std. action. If you're willing to allow manipulation of the spell during the selection stage, then you may as well use the trick I present in the OP. I am unfamiliar with energy transformation field, but I'll take a look at it when I get home. Sounds promising to say the least. What needs to occur to get infinite spells is Cast Arcane Fusion-> Convert Spells gained from Arcane Fusion into something else->Convert back into Arcane Fusion Yes, that's what I was thinking too. You seemed to have discovered the same trick that I mentioned earlier (twin + versatile spell caster), but there is another reason why it doesn't work: it doesn't create an infinite loop. You'd need that second spell generated to be twinned as well, in order to maintain the loop. This might be possible through arcane thesis abuse + practical metamagic, but I'm not sure. Another problem is that even if you get the spell slots to sack, you still need to cast the spell, which would require more actions. I'll have a lot more time to devote to this problem later tonight.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-01-06, 06:47 PM	Aaaannnddd.... we're back. Now that I can look at my books, I'd like to go into an analysis of the infamous ETF: Long spell text, but here's what I take to be the relevant parts. Text that follows, unless in blue, is identical to the actual text. Blue text is paraphrasing. Sor/Wiz 7; 4 rnd casting time; 5000 gp worth of powerded diamond; 250 XP; permanent duration. 1. The field absorbs the magic of spells cast, spell-like, or supernatural abilties that are activated, and magic items used within its dimensions. Each source of magic provides spell levels of energy to the field equal to the spell level of the effect used. Text carries on to describe how certain magical effects which are not quantized by spell level are quantized and integrated into the field's energy. These additional pieces of information are interesting, but not relevant to the trick. 2. The field absorbs only matic that is acutally used within the area. Ongoing magical effects that enter the area, including spells cast from outside the area into the field or continually functioning items such as a +1 mace, are often visibly reduced, but do not have their actual effects hindered. For example, a continual flame would dim slightly, but its overal magic would not be affected. 3. An energy transformation field has a single spell linked to it. When the field has absorbed spell levels equal to the spell level of its linked spell, it automatically casts that spell at a point within the field specified by you at the time of the casting of the field. You delete a number of spell levels from the field's total energy equal to the level of the spell linked. Pretty simple. No conversion costs. Unused spell levels roll over; ie they aren't all deleted when the linked spell is triggered. Absorbed levels fade at a rate of 1/day measured since the last triggered casting of the linked spell. 4. The cast spell functions as if cast by you in terms of duration and all level-based spell effects. 5. Spells that require a target will target the living creature nearest to the field. Ambiguity of target: By #5, the person nearest to the field is targeted by the linked spell-effect. That's worded curiously... as there may be multiple creatures equidistant from the point in the field specified by #3. How do you resolve this? I will assume that it is done randomly. The point will be moot, if there does not exist any equidistant creatures from the point of casting. I will take the "field" to be a fictious entity which casts spells at the point specified in #3. More poorly written rules text: This spells is just poorly written... all around. The concept, however, is exactly what the doctor ordered. I can find no mention within the spell description that the field does not absorb the effects of the linked spell, if it is cast within the field (which by #3 it always is). Furthermore, we don't know if the field is bound by the range of the spell effect linked. For example, if the field acquires enough energy to cast a magic missile by some means and the nearest living creature is outside of medium range, then does the field still strike the creature? So many questions! Let us assume that the spell functions: that it is able to cast a spell without absorbing it. Otherwise it would be kind of pointless, no? The issue of range is significant for application with arcane fusion. Unless the range of the spell is disregarded, arcane fusion could not be applied to anyone -- as they would always be outside the range of "you." I dunno -- the spell looks totally awesome, but it's just not worded properly. The designers clearly had a few specific applications in mind, but made the mistake of generalizing the spell text.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-01-06, 07:15 PM	... more spell compendium research... 9th level sor/wiz; 10 mins/level or until expended; You are allowed to absorb 1d4+6 levels worth of ranged spells that have you as a target. If you're hit with more levels than you can absorb, then a portion of the damage deal will be dealt to you (or you have a certain percentage chance of being affected by the effect if it is not a damaging effect). You can use captured spell energy to cast any spell you know or have prepared, but spells so cast don't disappear from your list of prepared spells or count agianst the number of spells you can normally cast per day (so you so must keep a running total of the spell levels absorbed and used). The levels of spell energy eyou have stored must be equal to or greater than the level of the spell you want to cast... Here's how I would work it: Gain daze immunity: via that one paladin spell. Can't remember the name. Shouldn't be too hard to get. Limited wish, or some levels in recaster will do the trick. Maximize Absorption => Now you can absorb 10 levels. That's more than enough for us. Cast twinned greater arcane fusion; you'll need arcane thesis and practical metamagic to do this, but it's going to be soooo worth it. You now have 2 7th level spells and 2 4th level spells at your disposal. This is how you should cast your spells (in this order): 7th or lower: Chain lightning (targeting yourself). All of it is absorbed. 4th or lower: Orb of something. All of it is absorbed. You now have 10 absorbed levels. 7th level or lower: output spell. You can output any spell you wish and target anyone you like with this spell. Have fun. 4th level or lower: celerity. You don't actually use up an immediate action to do this, as it is subsumed in the casting of arcane fusion (per RAW). That means you can cast this more than once per round. Niiiiccce... Now you gain a std. action. You're immune to the daze, so who cares. Use the std. action gained in the previous step to do, you guessed it, cast a twinned arcane fusion. (rapid metamagic is required). You accomplish this by burning the spell slots absorbed earlier in this sub-sequence. Repeat the above sub-sequence... infinitely. Note: once we absorb spells, we never go below a pool of 1 spell level. This ensures that the spell is never expended. Feats required: Arcane Thesis (Greater Arcane Fusion), Practical Metamagic (Twin), Twin Spell, Maximize spell, Rapid Metamagic (for a sorcerer). Caster level required: 18 (for a sorcerer). Bam. There you have it folks. It requires 9th level spells now, but you can output an infinite number of 7th level spells in a single std. action.
Edea 12-01-06, 07:43 PM	...mine says 'until expended.' Once you've absorbed 1d4+6 spell levels, it can't absorb anymore. maximized absorption can only absorb 10 spell levels. So I'd get dealt 18d6 lightning damage if I tried to repeat this after the first run. This is an example reason it says to keep track of absorbed and used. (Free/Absorbed/Used). Initial roll: 10, as it's maximized. 10/0/0. You absorb chain lightning. 4/6/0. You cast orb of acid using absorbed spell levels. 4/2/4. You absorb heightened scorching ray (4th). 0/6/4. You cast fireball normally. 0/6/4. You are struck by a ray of enfeeblement. 0/6/4, normal effect of spell takes place. You cast disintegrate using absorbed spell levels. 0/0/10. Spell is expended. Even if you didn't cast disintegrate, you'd still have 6 spell levels left to use, so absorption hasn't been expended yet, but you'd have no more spell levels to absorb, so if you get hit again you're going to take the normal effect of the spell that struck you. I agree that the spell is very poorly worded, but SC's version doesn't say 'discharged.'
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-01-06, 08:31 PM	Wow... I don't know how I read expended so many times and saw discharged. Well, by your interpretation, the trick works! Once I acquire spell levels, I never have less than 1 spell level in my pool. Fantastic. It's very high level, now, but hey... infinite spells in a single std. action is pretty hard to accomplish at low levels. It should be a high level thing. Oh and as a bi-product... you can use the left over spell at the end of the loop to cast absorption again! Effectively, you can repeat this loop as many times as you can cast arcane twinned fusion (a 9th level slot with the feats I show) in a day. :dancin: :dancin: :dancin: :dancin: :dancin: :dancin: :dancin:
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-01-06, 09:04 PM	OP has been updated. You are now free to discuss applications of the loop. So far applications I like are (not necessarily original applications on my part): -Infinite pp via dweomer of transferance -Kill just about everything in the multiverse! Use those 7th level spell slots to slay just about everything. Teleport/plane shift where you need to go to find them, and then slaughter them. Think of the XP! -Destroy pun-pun! just kidding, but it might help... dum, dum, dum..... -Gain an infinite number of std actions via celerity and twiddle your thumbs infinitely! -Summon an infinite army of monsters and swarm your foes! Ahh... nothing is more fun the infinity...
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-01-06, 09:09 PM	EDIT: Crap. Crap. Crappity crap crap. I misread your post, Edea. You think it means you can only absorb a total of 10 spell levels? This is disturbing.... most disturbing. Let me see... I must reconsider the method for this alternative interpretation. Hmmm.... okay. We have to use a little more rules lawyering now. Absorbtion says the spell level of the spell being cast must be equal to the amount of energy deleted from the pool. That means that metamagic doesn't actually delete any additional temp levels because: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell Absorption references the spell level, not the level at which it is cast or the slot being used. It also doesn't have the annoying "spell known" stuff that bogged me down earlier. Sooo... we can bust out sanctum spell once more. That reduces the cost of things by 1, according to absorption. Then we're going to need to cast absorption in every interation. With sanctum spell, that means you need a total of 15 levels worth of absorption. (7 for greater arcane fusion, 8 for absorption). Well... I think the most efficient way to do this is to twin AND maximize the spell. We're going to need arcane thesis (absorption) now and practical metamagic (maximize). And we'll need metamagic school focus abjurration. Ugh. So our cooperative sanctum maximized twinned rapid absorption now takes up: 9th [9 + 4 -1 -1 + 3 -1 -1 + 0 -1 + 0 - 1 -1 + 1 -1] level spell slot and counts as an 8th level spell outside our sanctum. Similarily for sanctum twinned greater arcane fusion, it occupies a 9th level slot [8 + 4 - 1 - 1 + 0 -1] and counts as a 7th level spell. Yeah, okay. So when we twin the absorption both go into effect, but since they're the same spell they overlap. Right? Once one is filled up (it has absorbed 10 spell levels) we need to expend all those levels before filling the second one up and expending it. Oh and by the way, the key here is NOT TO TAKE RAPID METAMAGIC. Weird, I know. So the loop goes: Cast favor of the martyr Cast Arcane Spellsurge. Cast cooperative sanctum maximized twinned rapid absorption (takes 1 std. action with arcane spell surge and rapid spell). Cast sanctum twinned greater arcane fusion (takes 1 std. action with arcane spellsurge on) 7th or lower: twinned cooperative sanctum fifth level ranged spell (targeting yourself). All of it is absorbed (10 levels in absorption 1). Consumes std. action due to arcane spell surge. When selecting spells, however, this is an eligable spell (std. action, below 7th level). You apply metamagic when casting. For those who are picky, this still consumes a 5th level slot, so I'm not abusing the "free metamagic" concept. If you don't have a problem with the free metamagic concept, you can remove the sanctum and cooperative bit. 4th or lower: Twinned sanctum cooperative Orb of acid. All of it is absorbed. You now have 8 absorbed levels in the other absorption. When selecting spells, however, this is an eligable spell (std. action, 4th level or below). You apply metamagic when casting. 7th level or lower: output spell. You can output any spell you wish and target anyone you like with this spell. Have fun. You are required to add some form of metamagic to it so that it uses a std. action (not swift) because of arcane spell surge. 4th level or lower: twinned sanctum cooperative celerity. You don't actually use up an immediate action to do this, as it is subsumed in the casting of arcane fusion (per RAW). That means you can cast this more than once per round. Niiiiccce... Now you gain 2 std. actions. You're immune to the daze, so who cares about the side effects. Use the other std. action to cast another absorption. Go back to beginning of this subsequence. Use the std. action gained in the previous step to do, you guessed it, cast a twinned arcane fusion. You accomplish this by burning the spell slots absorbed earlier in this sub-sequence (pool of 8).
Edea 12-01-06, 09:39 PM	Well, I'm reading that as -one- absorption absorbs a maximum of 10 spell levels. You can have more than one absorption spell active on your person at any given time, and they'll overlap, there's absolutely no rule stating otherwise (in fact, I thought same-spell overlap for non-damaging effects was one of the golden rules of spellcasting for D&D). So, you don't need to waste any time getting an absorption to the 'expended' state. Just layer them. So, maybe use arcane thesis (absorption) to knock the spell level of absorption down to 1st or 4th using a hellacious number of metamagic feats, and stick that into one of the fusions? That is, of course, assuming you're actually casting the spells in the fusion (I believe we are). That does require an awful lot of feats, though, definitely needs bonus feats from somewhere.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-01-06, 09:58 PM	Well, I'm reading that as -one- absorption absorbs a maximum of 10 spell levels. You can have more than one absorption spell active on your person at any given time, and they'll overlap, there's absolutely no rule stating otherwise (in fact, I thought same-spell overlap for non-damaging effects was one of the golden rules of spellcasting for D&D). So, you don't need to waste any time getting an absorption to the 'expended' state. Just layer them. So, maybe use arcane thesis (absorption) to knock the spell level of absorption down to 1st or 4th using a hellacious number of metamagic feats, and stick that into one of the fusions? That is, of course, assuming you're actually casting the spells in the fusion (I believe we are). That does require an awful lot of feats, though, definitely needs bonus feats from somewhere. Yep, yep. I realized the problem. Working on it as we speak. Arcane thesis does not lower spell level, only slot level. And yes, in it's current mode, it's requiring a rediculous amount of feats to pull off. As of now I need: cooperative spell sanctum spell arcane thesis x2 practical metamagic x2 twin maximize rapid spell. That's 9 feats. Do able with the right PrCs and a human. Ugh... I'm also requiring a bit more rules lawyering than previously. Nothing too bad, imo, but I'm certainly going to have to abuse the "free metamagic" from arcane fusion.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-01-06, 10:07 PM	Revised method has been posted, see post 103. I'm kind of sick of working on this. Will clean up the method later. Hope it works. It's like a binary search method... we'll eventually converge on a RAW method for this concept.
Think0028 12-01-06, 10:41 PM	Can't see anything wrong with it, but that's just me.
Tenebrous_Sage 12-01-06, 10:55 PM	distance moved in a round (use Telekinesis each time)Nope, Pun-pun was able to move infinite distance each round well before this combo.
Think0028 12-01-06, 10:56 PM	Nope, Pun-pun was able to move infinite distance each round well before this combo. I just made an edit to say "except for pun-pun" but then remembered that everything I mentioned was already done by someone who wasn't pun-pun. Well, except for distance moved.
Endarire 12-01-06, 11:13 PM	Does creating such a combo bring more joy, shame, or wonder to the book authors? -EE
Tenebrous_Sage 12-01-06, 11:17 PM	Most of the book authors probably don't even know about them (I do remember Richard Baker making a comment about Pun-pun though).
NineInchNall 12-02-06, 12:38 AM	It's like a binary search method... we'll eventually converge on a RAW method for this concept. Only if the search set is ordered.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-02-06, 12:43 AM	Only if the search set is ordered. :rolleyes:
NineInchNall 12-02-06, 12:44 AM	Well, seriously. Are you going to call D&D books well ordered? Hmm? :yuck:
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 12-02-06, 12:44 AM	Really, the authors who invented Arcane Spellsurge, Celerity, and Arcane Fusion had it coming. I really don't want to know what they were thinking when they made those spells. I also find it cool that this combo requires all 3 of the spells that I initially noticed to be a brutal combo :)
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-02-06, 12:47 AM	And now is about the time that I propose Tleilaxu_Ghola's theorem of optimization: If a spell/power description starts with "arcane" or ends with "field", it's broken.
Tenebrous_Sage 12-02-06, 12:47 AM	I, personally, think that Arcane Fusion was intended by the authors as a way for Sorcerers to be able to quicken their spells.
Think0028 12-02-06, 12:48 AM	Wait a minute, don't you need to cast absorption before the twinned Arcane Fusion on the later loops, or am I just being stupid? EDIT: Wow, in the time it took me to post, 4 other people posted.
RadicalTaoist 12-02-06, 12:49 AM	What if they come up with a spell named Arcane {something} Field?
NineInchNall 12-02-06, 12:50 AM	Arcane poop field? Or maybe just arcane field. Right away that sounds abusive. Go figure.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-02-06, 12:51 AM	Wait a minute, don't you need to cast absorption before the twinned Arcane Fusion on the later loops, or am I just being stupid? Oh... yeah. Yeah you do. Those last two steps can be swapped around without incident. I'll fix it. What if they come up with a spell named Arcane {something} Field? One of two things would happen. Either pun-pun would die, or the game would implode. Maybe both... are the same thing?
Think0028 12-02-06, 12:56 AM	Arcane poop field? Or maybe just arcane field. Right away that sounds abusive. Go figure. Seems like something that'd boost caster level by something or another. Or do something crazy like "Pick one metamagic feat you know. It applies to all spells cast in the arcane field without raising the slot needed."
Tenebrous_Sage 12-02-06, 12:56 AM	What if they come up with a spell named Arcane {something} Field?There would finally be a way to beat Pun-pun post ascension. :P EDIT: T.G. beat me to it. :(
Think0028 12-02-06, 12:59 AM	Is it just me, or is this the greatest number of posts made in a single thread within 10 minutes of each other?
Tenebrous_Sage 12-02-06, 01:02 AM	Is it just me, or is this the greatest number of posts made in a single thread within 10 minutes of each other?I'm sure Pun-pun had more at some point. :P (Sorry T.G. I couldn't resist).
NineInchNall 12-02-06, 01:02 AM	Of course not. The "is this br0k3n" threads are much faster.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 12-02-06, 01:06 AM	Is there a reason that Pun-Pun would ever stop using his infinite actions? Is there a trick to beat him while he's using his infinite actions? Far Realm perhaps?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-02-06, 01:09 AM	Of course not. The "is this br0k3n" threads are much faster. The fastest thread on the CO boards is Surreal's simple question/simple answer thread. It's been around for maybe 6 months an has 2000 some odd posts. That's nutzoid. The second fastest thead I've ever seen on the CO boards is the ToB tricks thread. It's thread has been around, what? 4 months now? It has 40 pages of posts (over 1000 posts). It's actually been going pretty "slow" for the last couple months. I think we filled up the first 10 pages in less than a week. So yeah, the omgwtfbbq threads do move much more rapidly, but there are a few notable exceptions. Is there a reason that Pun-Pun would ever stop using his infinite actions? Is there a trick to beat him while he's using his infinite actions? Far Realm perhaps? The key to beating pun-pun, as I've pointed out many times, is not do anything to him. The only way to beat him is to alter your reference frame until he no longer exists in your frame. Kind of like... the matrix and spoon bending. That's what the terminator "theory" basically is.
Think0028 12-02-06, 01:14 AM	Surreal's thread clocks in at about .006 messages per minute, this thread clocks in at .098 posts per minute. Go calculators!
tsuyoshikentsu 12-02-06, 02:22 AM	What if they come up with a spell named Arcane {something} Field?Pun-Pun would explode.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-02-06, 06:01 PM	The OP has been modified, with the new method. I found a slight problem, however. In order to avoid RAW issues I would like all metamagic spells to occupy the same level of their original level. There's no real reason in my mind why this is necessary, but it makes it cleaner. As such, I noticed that a sanctum cooperative twinned maximized absorption (with the feats I have) occupies a 10th level spell slot. If any of you has an idea on how to reduce that by 1 more spell slot, I'd be much in your debt. EDIT: Looks like dweomerkeeper 10 is the answer. More ideas are welcome. I hope to post a working build for this trick in the OP shortly.
psly4mne 12-02-06, 07:57 PM	Infinite movement in one round was done a long time ago here. Still, great find on the loop. If you're using the "free metamagic" interpretation of Arcane Fusion (and it does seem to be RAW), then this goes in the same category as Effigy Master abuse.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-02-06, 08:04 PM	Infinite movement in one round was done a long time ago here. Still, great find on the loop. If you're using the "free metamagic" interpretation of Arcane Fusion (and it does seem to be RAW), then this goes in the same category as Effigy Master abuse. I'm glad you approve. On a side note, sorcerers are now able to persistify fourth level or lower spells by 10th level. Yum.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 12-02-06, 09:06 PM	I'm a little worried that you've taken the cooperative metamagic feat. That requires 2 casters to be casting the same spell, I personally don't believe a Cooperative Absorption and A Sanctum Cooperative Twinned Absorption are the same spells. Even if that works, every time you cast a cooperative spell, you have to have someone with you to cast that with. How are you adjucating for that? Also, could you explain why 2 absorptions are necessary? Why not just cast fewer spells at yourself?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-02-06, 09:11 PM	I'm a little worried that you've taken the cooperative metamagic feat. That requires 2 casters to be casting the same spell, I personally don't believe a Cooperative Absorption and A Sanctum Cooperative Twinned Absorption are the same spells. Even if that works, every time you cast a cooperative spell, you have to have someone with you to cast that with. How are you adjucating for that? Also, could you explain why 2 absorptions are necessary? Why not just cast fewer spells at yourself? Oh ye of little faith. I don't need anyone else. I apply the cooperative metamagic feat, but then I don't get any benefit from it (as no one else is around). Huh? Well it's a +0 spell slot metamagic, when combined with arcane thesis it bumps your spell slot down 1, effectively making it a -1 to spell slot. Same thing with sanctum spell. It's just there to make it easier to cast. Why 2 absorptions? Well I need enough spell energy to cast another absorption and another greater arcane fusion. That's not going to happen with just one absorption; I need 17 spell levels to work with (or 15 with sanctum). So I use two maximized and twinned absorptions.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 12-02-06, 09:25 PM	Oh ye of little faith. I don't need anyone else. I apply the cooperative metamagic feat, but then I don't get any benefit from it (as no one else is around). Huh? Well it's a +0 spell slot metamagic, when combined with arcane thesis it bumps your spell slot down 1, effectively making it a -1 to spell slot. Same thing with sanctum spell. It's just there to make it easier to cast.:detect: *looks at Cooperative Spell* :gah: I've been reading it wrong for the past 6 months!! I thought that the metamagic feat required you to cast it with someone else at the same time. Sheesh! What a ridiculous feat! Why 2 absorptions? Well I need enough spell energy to cast another absorption and another greater arcane fusion. That's not going to happen with just one absorption; I need 17 spell levels to work with (or 15 with sanctum). So I use two maximized and twinned absorptions. Ah, ok. I see it now. I wasn't thinking ahead enough. You need Absorbtion to Cast Absorbtion and Greater Arcane Fusion. Now here's something. After looking at Energy Transformation Field and comparing it to Absorption, it would seem to me that both Absorptions would absorb the same spell. For instance, if you were subjected to a 5th level spell. Both absorptions would have a 5th level spell in them rather than one empty and one with a 5th level spell.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-02-06, 09:29 PM	Now here's something. After looking at Energy Transformation Field and comparing it to Absorption, it would seem to me that both Absorptions would absorb the same spell. For instance, if you were subjected to a 5th level spell. Both absorptions would have a 5th level spell in them rather than one empty and one with a 5th level spell. I'm not so sure about that, but even if it does, then that just means we can take out a step (the orb of acid step) and use that as another output.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 12-02-06, 09:50 PM	I'm not so sure about that, but even if it does, then that just means we can take out a step (the orb of acid step) and use that as another output. Right, it doesn't ultimately affect the trick negatively. Infinite still = Infinite. That's what it looks like to me, I could be wrong. Oh, and I hate to break it to you T_G, but your build as-is doesn't work, DweomerKeeper requires an Item Creation feat and you don't have one. I'm trying to work on a build as we speak to see if this can be corrected.
psly4mne 12-02-06, 10:00 PM	Oh, and I hate to break it to you T_G, but your build as-is doesn't work, DweomerKeeper requires an Item Creation feat and you don't have one. I'm trying to work on a build as we speak to see if this can be corrected. Why use Dweomerkeeper rather than Incantatrix? Just replacing the 10 levels would free up a few feats and make the build work.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 12-02-06, 10:00 PM	Sorceror 6/ Incantarix 10/ Loremaster 4 Race: Kobold 1: maximize Spell 3: Iron Will 6: Greater Draconic Rite of Passage 7: Twin Spell 9: Practical metamagic: Twin Spell 10: Sanctum Spell 12: Practical metamagic: maximize Spell 13: Cooperative Spell 15: Skill Focus: Knowledge (Arcana) 16: *metamagic feat* 17: Arcane Thesis: Greater Arcane Fusion *Gained through loremaster Secret+24 int 18: Arcane Thesis: Absorption The trick can be done at level 18. I'd like to call this character Pseudo-Pun since he continually does his trickery while using his infinite Spells :D You could of course use a Human version 1: maximize Spell, Skill Focus: Knowledge (Arcana) 3: Iron Will 6: Practical metamagic: maximize Spell 7: Twin Spell 9: Practical metamagic: Twin Spell 10: Sanctum Spell 12: *Free Feat* 13: Cooperative Spell 15: *Free Feat* 16: *metamagic feat* 17: Arcane Thesis: Greater Arcane Fusion *Gained through loremaster Secret+24 int 18: Arcane Thesis: Absorption
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-02-06, 10:04 PM	Hmm... Well... we don't really need cooperative metamagic with the dweomer keeper ability. [9 (original) + 4 twin -1 thesis -1 practical -1 dweomer keeper + 3 maximize -1 thesis -1 practical -1 dweomer keeper +0 sanctum -1 thesis) = 9 EDIT: Actually, I dropped sanctum. See the OP.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-03-06, 05:31 PM	Interestingly enough, this could be mixed with shadowcraft mage and heighten spell to output an infinite number of 9th level evocations. Let that sink in for a second. Start thinking thoughts about recaster. wait for it. Oh yeah, recasters can add any spell to their known spell list. Since Miracle is an evocation we could cast an infintite number of miracles in a single round. Almost as good as being pun-pun. Just press the "I win now" button.
Think0028 12-03-06, 10:16 PM	... oh wow. Is such a build possible?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-03-06, 10:28 PM	... oh wow. Is such a build possible? In 20 levels? ... it would be tricky. But yeah, I think it may be doable. I'd probably involve the incantrix PrC, though.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 12-03-06, 10:41 PM	In 20 levels? ... it would be tricky. But yeah, I think it may be doable. I'd probably involve the incantrix PrC, though. :emp: Excellent! All bow to the Incantarix eventually! muahahahahaaha!
Think0028 12-03-06, 10:46 PM	On a funny side note: True Creation is an 8th level domain spell. Infinite money! Infinite Primal Essence! Infinite matter!
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-03-06, 11:16 PM	On a funny side note: True Creation is an 8th level domain spell. Infinite money! Infinite Primal Essence! Infinite matter! *sob* that brings a tear to my eye. Yet another piece of the pun-pun puzzle solved!
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 12-03-06, 11:22 PM	Just how many pieces are there? Do Save Game mechanics not beat him already? What is there left to do?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-03-06, 11:31 PM	Just how many pieces are there? Do Save Game mechanics not beat him already? What is there left to do? There are sooo many pieces. So many. If you really want a taste, look at some of my recent conversations on the pun-pun thread. One of the biggest hurdles is going to be developing the "I win by going second" game. That's would be elementary to do even with the Monty technique, but the problem of introducing an infinite number of Monty clones has stumped me for quite some time. One of these days I'll get around to writing up the entire puzzle. It's becoming more and more coherent as the days go by, but I'm not sure it's ready for posting.
psly4mne 12-04-06, 12:26 AM	I still have reservations about applying metamagic with Arcane Fusion. I'll review the thread, but can you recap the argument in favor? As for the anti-Pun-Pun attempt, what does this technique add that wasn't already possible? If all you need is Miracle at will, there are easier ways to get it... (Cheesewrought Instabold + Innate Spell comes to mind immediately, but there are other, easier ways as well)
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-04-06, 12:39 AM	I still have reservations about applying metamagic with Arcane Fusion. I'll review the thread, but can you recap the argument in favor? As for the anti-Pun-Pun attempt, what does this technique add that wasn't already possible? If all you need is Miracle at will, there are easier ways to get it... (Cheesewrought Instabold + Innate Spell comes to mind immediately, but there are other, easier ways as well) I needed a way to create a bunch of material components for ice-assassin, or else I need a way to ignore them. There are a couple ways to do this, admittedly, but I'm kind of partial to making vast amounts of primal essence. Anyways, for the metamagic issue. I'm operating under the strict assumption that when you select spells via arcane fusion you must select unmodified spells from your known list. The spell description then states: Both spells take effect in the order you choose, as if you had cast them one after the other using only one standard action, but you don't expend any additional spell slots to cast those spells. Now I apply this quote: Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. The spell description is pretty clear, you choose spells as they cast them. When the cast them a spell that they've chosen, they can also choose to whether or not to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. In arcane fusion you first choose 2 spells from your known list. Then those spells take effect, "as if you cast them." Since we're actually casting them, we can chose, at the moment of casting the spells, whether or not to apply metamagic feats to them. Now if you're of the opinion that metamagic feats affect the spell selection then abuse is rather elementary, as I initially pointed out. However, if you're of the opinion that metamagic feats are applied either simultaneously with casting or just after, then the trick in the OP works. The trick in the OP works for all three possible interpretations. Hope that answers you questions.
Aerk 12-04-06, 03:46 AM	The key to beating pun-pun, as I've pointed out many times, is not do anything to him. The only way to beat him is to alter your reference frame until he no longer exists in your frame. Kind of like... the matrix and spoon bending. That's what the terminator "theory" basically is. This made me laugh :) In the Gord books by Gygax, that was how Tharizdun was defeated; they sealed him away in the Universe of Oerth, where after he destroyed everything it was just him. Basically, by shifting everything over to a new frame of reference (a new Universe in the Multiverse), they got rid of him forever.
Endarire 01-14-07, 02:41 AM	What about Invisible Spell from Cityscape? It makes your components invisible for no level adjustment. -EE
Tleilaxu_Ghola 01-14-07, 03:51 AM	What purpose would that serve?
Aegeu 01-14-07, 10:39 AM	It would reduce the level of the spells you're casting by one. That enough of a reason?
WizO_Autumn 01-24-07, 10:15 PM	Challenges such as this belong on the Optimization Challenge board... hence the teleport!
Chaos116882 01-31-07, 02:33 AM	It says under twin spell alll decisions you make about the spell are applied to the original and twin. Wouldnt this include what spells are in the Arcane Fusion? Could you really use a twin spell to cast 2 different matrixes of arcane spell surge then?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 01-31-07, 03:01 AM	It says under twin spell alll decisions you make about the spell are applied to the original and twin. Wouldnt this include what spells are in the Arcane Fusion? Could you really use a twin spell to cast 2 different matrixes of arcane spell surge then? Do you mean that the twinned arcane fusions need to be symmetric (ie their sub-spells are identical)? I can buy that. Simply alter the two arcane fusions to be identical, as follows: Arcane Fusion ->5th level twinned, split damage ray, targeted at self. (Spell to be determined) ->Twinned Celerity Now we need to modify the process a touch. We need four absorptions (two twinned absorptions) initially. Now what we'll do is take those four 5th level rays from each Arcane Fusion to absorb 40 spell levels filling all absorptions. The subsequent 4 celerities generate 4 STD actions. 2 for 2 twinned absorptions, 1 for twinned greater Arcane Fusion, and 1 for the output spell. The advantage of this new set up is incredible! The output spell is now any spell (with a STD action casting time) of up to 10th level! Thanks for questioning that!
Tleilaxu_Ghola 01-31-07, 03:16 AM	Once I find this mystical 5th level ray spell, we should be good. But anyways, I do hope you realize the importance of this modification. I means that the Arcane Nova is truely asserting itself as the ULTIMATE infinite loop. Why? Because now, with the addition of 10th level spell outputs, we can nest Arcane Novas inside themselves. Sort of like infinities within infinities. This would allow one to create a number of events with, I believe, arbitrary temporal density. Essentially one can now simply declare the cardinality of the infinity they desire.
Sactheminions 01-31-07, 03:49 AM	The Mystical Ray Spell is in an Arcane Fusion, right? And we decided you can metamagic those spells at will by the RAW? So just heighten a Ray of Exhaustion.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 01-31-07, 12:42 PM	"We" decided that there are one of two possibilities: Either metamagic is applied during spell selection (allowing massively easy abuse) or it is applied after spell selection, but at the moment of casting. I assume the second, more difficult case, is true. Hence the heavy posturing required to perform the loop. The build in the OP is capable of casting a Twinned Maximized Cooperative Sanctum Absorption using a 9th level slot and it consumes a standard action to do so. Similarly for twinned greater arcane fusion. The addition of split ray allows one to get 4 spells for the price of one, if my reading is correct. Heighten is definately an option, but I was hoping to avoid the addtion of more metamagic feats and simply find a 5th level ray spell. An alternative is to use repeat spell. It will require even more set up, but may actually be "cleaner". The initial set up would now require that two twinned fifth level spells are cast at oneself before entering the arcane fusion loop. Then on each iteration we add a repeated twinned 5th level spell. The combination of the previous iteration's repeat spells and the current iteration's twinned spells resutls in the desired 40 absorbed spell levels.
Sactheminions 01-31-07, 02:17 PM	Possible Third Interpretation: Arcane Fusion reads: "Both spells take effect in the order you choose, as if you had cast them (emphasis mine) one after the other." It also reads: "Effectively, [emphasis mine] you cast two other spells using this spell's 5th level spell slot." Arcane Fusion, then, may give effect to each of the chosen spells without actually ever requiring (or allowing) the sorceror to cast them. Which would mean that you're limited to non-metamagic effects, I think, although there might be other broken results of uncast spell effects. At minimum I don't think a Spellcraft check would allow you to determine what spells were contained in the Arcane Fusion if they aren't ever actually cast, merely taking effect. This may stink from a creating-infinite-spells point of view, but I don't like reading out of the text of Arcane Fusion all the verbiage implying that these aren't really castings.
Chaos116882 01-31-07, 02:53 PM	Glad to question a rule that made this trick even more powerful. :)
Tleilaxu_Ghola 01-31-07, 06:54 PM	Possible Third Interpretation: Arcane Fusion reads: "Both spells take effect in the order you choose, as if you had cast them (emphasis mine) one after the other." Yes, as if you had cast them. If you cast them, this activates the metamagic clause for sponeaneous casters, which reads: They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. Whenever you cast you can choose to apply metamagic. Since it is as if we cast them, and there is no explicit restriction saying that it behaves any differently than normal casting outside of the actions consumed, we default to this statement. It also reads: "Effectively, [emphasis mine] you cast two other spells using this spell's 5th level spell slot." Arcane Fusion, then, may give effect to each of the chosen spells without actually ever requiring (or allowing) the sorceror to cast them. Which would mean that you're limited to non-metamagic effects, I think, although there might be other broken results of uncast spell effects. I disagree completely, the spell description pretty much says you cast the spells. If they simply took effect, you would not be able to designate targets, determine CL and other such stuff that happens as you cast the spell. The reason I did not include this interpretation is because its non-functional. At minimum I don't think a Spellcraft check would allow you to determine what spells were contained in the Arcane Fusion if they aren't ever actually cast, merely taking effect. Well now you're just making stuff up. Where does it say that? This may stink from a creating-infinite-spells point of view, but I don't like reading out of the text of Arcane Fusion all the verbiage implying that these aren't really castings. I may be biased, but I think your reading is incorrect.
Senevri 02-02-07, 09:25 PM	Does Versatile Spellcaster help in casting that 10th level Greater Arcane Fusion? Or has that been solved, already?
Elsydeon 02-03-07, 12:05 AM	If I create a spell that is immune to dispelling, wishing, etc.... that traps your soul eternally within a piece of wood with NO way to get it out (assume this is possible for the sake of the argument) I have EFFECTIVELY killed you. But you are not dead. The definition of effectively is the kicker here. I like what you're trying to do. I want it to work. But by this definition you can't apply metamagic to the spells at all, because you can only apply metamagic to spells you're casting. This interpretation basically has the spell casting them itself. I.E. Wishing them into existence. You get to choose their targets and such, but you're not the caster. Think of it from a non-numbers perspective. A sorceror casts a spell that gives him the EFFECT of two other spells he knows of lower level. When he casts this spell he chooses to take the EFFECTS of magic missile twice and target Deekin the kobold. Deekin is hit with two magic missiles. The sorceror cast your combo spell. Magic missiles were the effect, not cast seperately. He never cast magic missile, so he cannot metamagic them. Edit: Obviously, the fusion stuff has horrible wording, since at first glance and even second it can look very different from what it is.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-03-07, 04:24 AM	Both spells take effect in the order you choose, as if you had cast them one after the other using only one standard action, but you don't expend any additional spell slots to cast those spells. This is the pertanent sentence describing how the spell stake effect. They take effect in the order you choose, as if you had cast them... Pretty simple. If you want to split hairs on the "as if" part, be my guest, but then you'll need to explain how to determine the spell effects. When one casts a spell a great number of things happen: you choose what CL to cast it at, you chose the targets, you chose the area, etc. These decisions are all under the "Casting Spells" heading of the PHB. Essentially if you aren't casting the spell, you don't make those decisions and the "effect" becomes unknown, in most cases. If you take it to mean that you cast the spell, with the exception of the fact that it doesn't spend any slots and it doesn't cost any extra actions, then you can determine the effect and the abuse in the OP follows.
Elsydeon 02-03-07, 08:06 AM	Both spells take effect in the order you choose, as if you had cast them one after the other using only one standard action, but you don't expend any additional spell slots to cast those spells. I could easily argue that choosing the order and acting as if you cast both within 1 round still does not say you have cast these spells. I will. The spell itself explains how to determine spell 'strength'. The spells take effect as if you cast them (implying, if not actually stating outright, that you have not cast these spells in the traditional sense of spellcasting) in a standard action. Thus you choose order and your spellcasting 'stats' determine the effect gained. But you do not use slots, do get 2 spells faster than you could cast it (more evidence that you're not literally casting the chosen spells of your fusion), etc. The resulting effects come not directly from your sorceror, but from the spell he cast. This is a very solid argument by the RAW and RAI. But there are better arguments. Ruling found. Search for metamagic on the wizards FAQ. 2nd result. What happens when I apply both the empower spell and maximize spell metamagic feats to the same spell? Answer You must apply the results of both of these feats separately. Revised HEAVILY to get the size of this rambling post down: Case 1 - The spells are cast from a temporary spells/day pool with 1 1st and 1 4th slot only. Metamagic occurs in a sequence (you can’t apply all feats in the same instance). Even if you’re stacking 4 metamagic feats with your sorc in a short period of time it’s simply impossible to ‘think’ 4 things at once. The ruling listed above reinforces this common sense. The result of this is very simple. You have no 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, etc... slots. There is no –3 in your feat application. Meaning you cannot metamagic these spells at all, nowhere to put them. Any single feat puts them into a non-existent slot. Fits RAI, makes assumptions with RAW about about spell slots being created. So this is certainly less ‘solid’ than the next 3 options. Case 2 – The spells have no level/spell pool where metamagic is concerned since they occupy no spell slot. The spell is cast by you, with the properties in the spell as described appearing out of the 5th level slot used. Spell Level nothing (no slot, no effective level) is not defined by the rules system currently in place, and essentially means the metamagic cannot target the spells (no spell slot + not technically in your sorcs spellcasting pool = invalid target for metamagic). You cannot add a + or - to something that doesn’t actually posess a value to begin with. It needs a starting point. You’re just as productive creating a custom spell that makes up a functionless attribute called Awesomeness and giving yourself an 18 in it. Because this non-level is undefined it functions as spell level black hole instead of spell level negative one or something similarly cheesy. Fits RAW/errata on the spell and metamagic. Fits RAI also. Case 3 – The spells are not truly cast, they are simply an effect simulation from the fusion spell. Makes perfect sense, fits RAI, fits RAW. No metamagic is available here either, except where it applies to the fusion spell itself. Case 4 –The spells are not effects of fusion directly. Fusion causes you to cast those two spells. The claim being that you can apply metamagic to spells that don’t currently posess a spell slot (essentially sending them to another nonexistent spell slot that's higher or lower since it's a sequence of events when applying metamagic) at 0 cost. “Spell Level: Blackhole” = always a black hole. There are no slots to do the manipulation with. Even if the final tally is +0, you have to apply individual +/- from each feat. Find a rule that deals with this circumstance and you’ve gotten one step closer to an indisputable loop. Find a ruling that clarifies that fusion causes you to cast those spells and it’s not the spell casting them for you and it’s indisputable. Case 5 – The spell created temporary spell slots for the free spells. The claims being: the 5th created a 4th and 1st level slots for the duration of fusion. These slots are part of your sorc casting ability (as opposed to a seperate list with only the two slots available). That the cost of adding this metamagic would somehow be free (Using your feat combination we get the free metamagic). Show a ruling stating that arcane fusion creates temporary spell slots that you can manipulate with metamagic (As opposed to being slotless. Would need to be an extension of your sorc spellcasting but that’s obvious) and you’re at infinity until they nerf bat it. ------------------------------------------------------------ Ignoring flavor and looking at purely mechanical perspectives here, if I cast wish to use magic I do or don't know I am generating an effect. Basically it does (with more raw power/versatility in a single cast, less in combos) the same thing as your combo's key spell. The targets and such are chosen by you. It does not specify how spell duration and power are determined, at least not at the SRD. A 9th level 'anything' spell's limitations are a good ruler to see if what you're thinking is even possible. Wish replicates a spell effect. It does not grant you the ability to cast the spell you choose. You actually cast Wish. But the result of Wish is basically a menu when using the spell replication options + the effect of your menu choice. At any rate, I'll be interested to see if you find a way to make it work via less questionable abilities. Or if the holes are plugged in this powers actual results. I'm all for CO challenges, but coloring in empty spaces to give a power more properties than explicitly stated or at least somehow directly implied is very likely breaking RAW. It's a fine line to walk in theoretical CO, but there's good reason to believe you aren't actually casting these spells. Even if you don't agree with that interpretation, you should be able to admit the wording definitely allows for it. While waiting on a ruling for the holes in plan A attempts could be made to work around them assuming the other potential interpretations (as the nerf is liberally applied when questions are asked a little too specifically).
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-03-07, 05:42 PM	Case 1 - The spells are cast from a temporary spells/day pool with 1 1st and 1 4th slot only. Metamagic occurs in a sequence (you can’t apply all feats in the same instance). Even if you’re stacking 4 metamagic feats with your sorc in a short period of time it’s simply impossible to ‘think’ 4 things at once. The ruling listed above reinforces this common sense. The result of this is very simple. You have no 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, etc... slots. There is no –3 in your feat application. Meaning you cannot metamagic these spells at all, nowhere to put them. Any single feat puts them into a non-existent slot. Fits RAI, makes assumptions with RAW about about spell slots being created. So this is certainly less ‘solid’ than the next 3 options. There is nothing restricting one from applying more than one metamagic effect to a spell. IT's done all the time, that's why THEY HAVE RULES FOR MULTIPLE METAMAGICS ON A SPELL. Sequencing doesn't matter in this case. The only thing that matters is that I can twin and maximize. The temporary spell slot idea has zero support in the RAW. Case 2 – The spells have no level/spell pool where metamagic is concerned since they occupy no spell slot. The spell is cast by you, with the properties in the spell as described appearing out of the 5th level slot used. Spell Level nothing (no slot, no effective level) is not defined by the rules system currently in place, and essentially means the metamagic cannot target the spells (no spell slot + not technically in your sorcs spellcasting pool = invalid target for metamagic). You cannot add a + or - to something that doesn’t actually posess a value to begin with. It needs a starting point. You’re just as productive creating a custom spell that makes up a functionless attribute called Awesomeness and giving yourself an 18 in it. Because this non-level is undefined it functions as spell level black hole instead of spell level negative one or something similarly cheesy. Fits RAW/errata on the spell and metamagic. Fits RAI also. First off, I don't care what you think RAI is, it has no meaning here. As for the actual argument; it's pure speculations. All the spell description says is that you cast a spell of a certain level. [Metamagic doesn't usually modify spell level (there are 2 exceptions: heighten and sanctum spell)] So really, in my opinion, one can apply all the metamagic they want for free... but just to keep the monkeys off my back I don't apply them for free. Case 3 – The spells are not truly cast, they are simply an effect simulation from the fusion spell. Makes perfect sense, fits RAI, fits RAW. No metamagic is available here either, except where it applies to the fusion spell itself. Doesn't work, for reasons stated previously. If you don't cast them then the result is indeterminate. Besides, you're splitting hairs here. AS if cast means ... as if it were cast. Even if you don't "cast" it, you are treated as if it were "cast" which means you can apply your metamagic feats, just AS IF you had cast it. We can play this retarded semantic game all day long. Case 4 –The spells are not effects of fusion directly. Fusion causes you to cast those two spells. The claim being that you can apply metamagic to spells that don’t currently posess a spell slot (essentially sending them to another nonexistent spell slot that's higher or lower since it's a sequence of events when applying metamagic) at 0 cost. “Spell Level: Blackhole” = always a black hole. There are no slots to do the manipulation with. Even if the final tally is +0, you have to apply individual +/- from each feat. Find a rule that deals with this circumstance and you’ve gotten one step closer to an indisputable loop. Find a ruling that clarifies that fusion causes you to cast those spells and it’s not the spell casting them for you and it’s indisputable. This is a repeat of #2. See my response there. Your logic is: if no spell slot manipulation, then no metamagic. But if you look at the metamagic feat descriptions it says benefit ____, increase spell slot. Not increase spell slot, THEN benefit. The two are not completely correlated. Case 5 – The spell created temporary spell slots for the free spells. The claims being: the 5th created a 4th and 1st level slots for the duration of fusion. These slots are part of your sorc casting ability (as opposed to a seperate list with only the two slots available). That the cost of adding this metamagic would somehow be free (Using your feat combination we get the free metamagic). Show a ruling stating that arcane fusion creates temporary spell slots that you can manipulate with metamagic (As opposed to being slotless. Would need to be an extension of your sorc spellcasting but that’s obvious) and you’re at infinity until they nerf bat it. Repeat of #1. There's nothing in the spell description about temporary spell slots being created, so I will not pretend that they are. Ignoring flavor and looking at purely mechanical perspectives here, if I cast wish to use magic I do or don't know I am generating an effect. Basically it does (with more raw power/versatility in a single cast, less in combos) the same thing as your combo's key spell. The targets and such are chosen by you. It does not specify how spell duration and power are determined, at least not at the SRD. A 9th level 'anything' spell's limitations are a good ruler to see if what you're thinking is even possible. A good comparison. We know that we can apply metamagic to wish spells when they replicate other spells, by this logic it is also possible to apply metamagic to Fusion spells. Even if you don't agree with that interpretation, you should be able to admit the wording definitely allows for it. Why do people always say this line?! EVERY TIME. WITHOUT FAIL. No, I don't think your interpretations have any validity. I've supported that claim. Why must I agree that the wording allows for it?
Elsydeon 02-03-07, 07:40 PM	That description explicitly states that for the purposes of the following the spells take effect as if cast by you: That you choose the order. The time it takes to gain this effect. Targets. And that there is no slot cost from casting the spell. It is not directly stated that you are the caster of the 4th and 1st level spells generated by arcane fusion. Whether or not the sorceror is, that is speculation. I wasn't arguing against metamagic stacking. I know that works. You misread (or I mistyped) my argument. You claim to be casting a spell that causes you to cast two more spells in x time. It's pure speculation, on EQUAL footing with my temporary spell list idea. The spell description you gave doesn't clarify HOW it works and exactly WHAT it does, just what is explicitly stated. So yeah, I'll say you should acknowledge you might not have guessed the mechanics correctly. And someone else could be right. Whether you do or not is up to you. My guess is just as likely, because it's all speculation by your own admission. I wasn't claiming to know the 'correct' answer, I was listing several possibilities that explain the effects and text of the SAME SPELL to provide a reasonable counterargument.. That's all. If opinions on possible RAI have no meaning, neither do opinions on possible RAW. It's all guesswork here, so RAI is just as valid an argument for optimization (anticipated nerf work arounds are definitely optimization) as filling the holes in RAW with what you believe it to be without confirmation. Can't have your cake and eat it too. Anyway, my argument is no less factual than your own. If you actually did cast the spells why doesn't it just say "You cast these spells in x amount of time without using spell slots"? You can call it splitting hairs and semantics all you want, but it's an odd way to word an effect like this. The metamagic issue is closely related to whether or not you cast the spell, and by what method the effect of arcane fusion generates a 4th and 1st level spell. Whether you like it or not, there is just as much reason to read this my way as there is yours. It's just vague enough to be this annoying. Your response to Case 3... Again, yours is just as likely to be wrong. It doesn't say the effect of fusion comes from the spellcaster. There are plenty of spells that will simulate or recreate the effects of other spells as their effect, with a cost. If it said "You cast the 4th and 1st level spell" instead of the wording it used there'd be little problem. If you are not the actual caster (just a measuring bar for determining how the spell acts) then you can't apply your metamagic feats since they are applied DURING spellcasting. Being treated as the caster is irrelevant. If you don't cast the resulting spells then the 'metamagic application action' never becomes available. Because there was no 'moment of casting' for the resulting 4th and 1st level spell. Only the fusion itself. Your argument about metamagic feats is either very wrong, or I'm misinterpreting it badly. If that were the case then I'd be able to metamagic my highest level spells for free, and my spells would become weaker in a literal sense and not the relative sense every time I gained a new spell level. The spell slot additions are a cost of metamagic. If there is no spell slot to utilize then the cost of the feat cannot be paid (same as if I were a Psion trying to use metamagic without having a high enough manifester level to apply the ability). Do you really want to argue this? The two are just as correlated as any other ability with a cost. The cost must be paid or directly circumvented. Your trick doesn't do it in this interpretation. Eschew materials lets you ignore the need for material components. The wording is actually that you ignore a cost. Direct circumvention. Your metamagic slot reductions do not have similar wording. They apply modifiers to the cost. Relevant ruling on metamagic. What happens when I apply both the empower spell and maximize spell metamagic feats to the same spell? Answer You must apply the results of both of these feats separately. That sets a precedent. The effect of a metamagic feat (like twin) is twofold. 1) You add the twin property to the spell and pay the cost. 2) Then, after the spell has been cast the spell is altered from the feats use. Metamagic feats are added 1 at a time until you've stacked them as high as you like. Add extend, +2 slots. Add a reduction in response to lower the cost, -1 slot. It's a sequence of events, and at the end of this metamagic application queue the spell slot is determined and consumed in the casting. You can spontaneously play with metamagic all day long and never cast the spell. And you cannot choose to simultaneously alter the spell with every metamagic feat you have. Again, try thinking of 7 different things all at the same time. You can't focus on them. The rules reflect this, as does the nature of spontaneous spellcasting. This is important, because if you have no spell slots to manipulate aside from those filled by the spells chosen, you cannot pay the cost of the metamagic feat. EVEN if you can eventually get your metamagic cost increase and reductions to stack all the way to 0, there are periods of time during the metamagic stacking process leading up to casting where the feats attempt to alter the spell slot up or down. If the fusioned spells are not considered a part of your sorceror 'spellbook' then there are no slots to manipulate and no metamagic can be applied unless it will keep the spell at it's current slot. If you can't pay the cost or circumvent it, you don't get the benefit. Summary:If it is cast from your spellbook and the fusion simply allows you to ignore the cost of expending spell slots, sets a duration for casting the 4th and 1st level spells yourself, fine. If however the 4th and 1st level spells gained from fusion are not considered 'in' your spellbook (be it a temporary spellbook, or simply the two spells not having spell slots at all) then your metamagic manipulation can't alter it's level at all. Eventually getting +0 by applying the feats vs constantly maintaing +0 to spell slot while adding the feats you wish to use... it's entirely different. As for Wish, you can apply metamagic to wish spells if you have the appropriate slot. No doubt. Just like you can do it to arcane fusion. But you can't apply metamagic directly to the spell that wish replicates from your feat list. You could wish for a maximized magic missile, but you can't wish for a magic missile and maximize it yourself when the spell effect is created. You're not the caster. The Wish spell created the effect. Just because you cast wish doesn't make the spell resulting from it yours also. Hopefully I've clarified the argument a bit.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-03-07, 08:45 PM	I'm going to preface this by saying that I doubt this will be "pretty". These semantic arguments SUCK and NEVER turn out well. I will endeavor to make this as rational as possible. First lets make this easy by numbering the sentences. When you cast this spell, choose any 1st-level sorcerer spell you know and any 4th-level or lower sorcerer spell you know (1). Neither spell chosen can have a casting time longer than 1 standard action(2). Both spells take effect in the order you choose, as if you had cast them one after the other using only one standard action, but you don't expend any additional spell slots to cast those spells(3). Effectively, you cast two other spells using this spell's 5th-level spell slot (4). Each of the chosen spells has its normal effect, including range, target, area, duration, saving throw, and spell resistance as appropriate to the spell's level (5). If either spell requires a material component, focus, XP cost, or other special cost, these must be used or paid as part of the casting of arcane fusion (6). I added enumerations for each sentence. That description explicitly states that for the purposes of the following the spells take effect as if cast by you: That you choose the order. The time it takes to gain this effect. Targets. And that there is no slot cost from casting the spell. It is not directly stated that you are the caster of the 4th and 1st level spells generated by arcane fusion. Whether or not the sorceror is, that is speculation. Actually, yes it does. See sentence 4. "Effectively, you cast two other spells using this spell's 5th-level spell slot." There is a spell slot involved, and the spell slot is that of the Arcane Fusion. This debunks your claim that the spells cast do not use a spell slot. Furthermore it does say that you cast the spells, effectively. If you want to say that "effectively, you cast" means "You don't actually cast", then be my guest. That's not a good start, though. You claim to be casting a spell that causes you to cast two more spells in x time. It's pure speculation, on EQUAL footing with my temporary spell list idea. No, it is not speculation. See sentence 3: " Both spells take effect in the order you choose, as if you had cast them one after the other using only one standard action". The description explicitly states that you cast two spells (one after the other) using only one action (that being "x time" by your reckoning). No mention of temporary spells are made, so there is no way the two ideas are on the same footing. The spell description you gave doesn't clarify HOW it works and exactly WHAT it does, just what is explicitly stated. So yeah, I'll say you should acknowledge you might not have guessed the mechanics correctly. And someone else could be right. No one needs to know how it works, at some mystical level. We simply need to know what happens. Thankfully the text tells us exactly what happens. You cast two spells in a single standard action using one fifth level spell slot. See sentences 3 and 4. Whether you do or not is up to you. My guess is just as likely, because it's all speculation by your own admission. I wasn't claiming to know the 'correct' answer, I was listing several possibilities that explain the effects and text of the SAME SPELL to provide a reasonable counterargument.. That's all. The problem is that none of your arguments are reasonable. They actually contradict the RAW of the spell or make inferences without support. There is no mention of temporary spell slots anywhere (both spells use one fifth level slot), there is no problem with the action required (both spells use one standard action), and you do actually cast the spells (it says this more than once, in different ways: see sentence 3 & 4.) If opinions on possible RAI have no meaning, neither do opinions on possible RAW. It's all guesswork here, so RAI is just as valid an argument for optimization (anticipated nerf work arounds are definitely optimization) as filling the holes in RAW with what you believe it to be without confirmation. Can't have your cake and eat it too. There's a fine line between RAW and RAI, of course. Making stuff up about temporary spell slots, which has no support in the actul spell text, is your RAI, but sure as hell ain't RAW. All I've done is made the following progression: 1. Spell states that you cast 2 spells 2. RAW says when you cast you can apply metamagic 3. ??? 4. Profit. Anyway, my argument is no less factual than your own. If you actually did cast the spells why doesn't it just say "You cast these spells in x amount of time without using spell slots"? It doesn't say that, exactly, but it does say that you cast the spells in a single standard action using the fifth level spell slot used to cast arcane fusion. You can call it splitting hairs and semantics all you want, but it's an odd way to word an effect like this. The metamagic issue is closely related to whether or not you cast the spell, and by what method the effect of arcane fusion generates a 4th and 1st level spell. Whether you like it or not, there is just as much reason to read this my way as there is yours. It's just vague enough to be this annoying. Not sure what you're getting at. The RAW is extremely clear. Just read the damn description. Sentence by sentence it reinforces the fact that using this one spell you can cast two, in a single standard action using one slot. What follows is a very simple application of metamagic and then some CO trickery. Your response to Case 3... Again, yours is just as likely to be wrong. It doesn't say the effect of fusion comes from the spellcaster. What the hell does this even mean? Who cares where the effect comes from? It comes from the spell. What matters is who casts the spell! That's all we care about: who casts the spell and what metamagic effects the caster can apply to the casting of that spell. There are plenty of spells that will simulate or recreate the effects of other spells as their effect, with a cost. If it said "You cast the 4th and 1st level spell" instead of the wording it used there'd be little problem. Too bad it actually does say that. See sentence 3. "Both spells take effect in the order you choose, as if you had cast..." Both spells refers to sentences 1 and 2 where they specify (in a nutshell): 1 4th level spell or lower and one 1st level spell or lower, both with std action casting times or less. Now we can re-order the sentence without changing the meaning to be: "As if you had cast... a 4th level and 1st level spell..." Just because it isn't in the precise order you want doesn't mean it's not the same thing. If you are not the actual caster (just a measuring bar for determining how the spell acts) then you can't apply your metamagic feats since they are applied DURING spellcasting. Being treated as the caster is irrelevant. If you don't cast the resulting spells then the 'metamagic application action' never becomes available. Because there was no 'moment of casting' for the resulting 4th and 1st level spell. Only the fusion itself. The bolded statement is laughable. If the spell had said you are treated as the caster for only the following effects.... and if that list did not include metamagic, then you'd be right. However, it just makes the blanket statement that you're treated as the caster. Thus, since we're the caster, we can apply metamagic. Equally laughable is the idea that the caster is just the "measuring bar" for determining the effects. Someone has to cast 'em for them to take effect. So, who the hell cast it, if the original caster is just the "measuring bar"? Clearly, from sentences 3 & 4 YOU are the caster of the subsequent spells. Your argument about metamagic feats is either very wrong, or I'm misinterpreting it badly. If that were the case then I'd be able to metamagic my highest level spells for free, and my spells would become weaker in a literal sense and not the relative sense every time I gained a new spell level. The spell slot additions are a cost of metamagic. If there is no spell slot to utilize then the cost of the feat cannot be paid (same as if I were a Psion trying to use metamagic without having a high enough manifester level to apply the ability). Do you really want to argue this? The two are just as correlated as any other ability with a cost. The cost must be paid or directly circumvented. Your trick doesn't do it in this interpretation. Yeah, I'd say you didn't understand my argument at all. But lets lay it aside for now, because it's not necessary. There is a better argument in support of my trick. You had claimed that because the spells don't use a spell slot, metamagic adjustment cannot be applied (since there is no slot to adjust). This is patently false, upon examining sentence 4; the spells use the fifth level spell slot which the arcane fusion uses. So if you really want to tie the effects of metamagic to the adjustment of the spell slot, then fine. We can do that. I'll twin and maximize arcane fusion (which is no problem seeing as how I twin and maximize 9th level spells...) The metamagic would then apply to all spells tied to that adjusted spell slot. Now, I'm not saying that's how it works, but if you want to interpret it that way, I can work around that. Eschew materials lets you ignore the need for material components. The wording is actually that you ignore a cost. Direct circumvention. Your metamagic slot reductions do not have similar wording. They apply modifiers to the cost. Relevant ruling on metamagic. What happens when I apply both the empower spell and maximize spell metamagic feats to the same spell? Answer You must apply the results of both of these feats separately. That sets a precedent. The effect of a metamagic feat (like twin) is twofold. 1) You add the twin property to the spell and pay the cost. 2) Then, after the spell has been cast the spell is altered from the feats use. Metamagic feats are added 1 at a time until you've stacked them as high as you like. Add extend, +2 slots. Add a reduction in response to lower the cost, -1 slot. It's a sequence of events, and at the end of this metamagic application queue the spell slot is determined and consumed in the casting. This is important, because if you have no spell slots to manipulate aside from those filled by the spells chosen, you cannot pay the cost of the metamagic feat. EVEN if you can eventually get your metamagic cost increase and reductions to stack all the way to 0, there are periods of time during the metamagic stacking process leading up to casting where the feats attempt to alter the spell slot up or down. If the fusioned spells are not considered a part of your sorceror 'spellbook' then there are no slots to manipulate and no metamagic can be applied unless it will keep the spell at it's current slot. If you can't pay the cost or circumvent it, you don't get the benefit. This is all completely debunked by actually reading the spell description, sentence 4. As for Wish, you can apply metamagic to wish spells if you have the appropriate slot. No doubt. Just like you can do it to arcane fusion. But you can't apply metamagic directly to the spell that wish replicates from your feat list. You could wish for a maximized magic missile, but you can't wish for a magic missile and maximize it yourself when the spell effect is created. You're not the caster. The Wish spell created the effect. Just because you cast wish doesn't make the spell resulting from it yours also. There's a fundamental difference between wish and Arcane fusion. Wish states: "A wish can produce any one of the following effects." Whereas, Arcane fusion states "Both spells take effect in the order you choose, as if you had cast them..." One says that the spell produces the effect, and the other says that the effect happens as if you created it. This, of course, debunks your "logic."
Elsydeon 02-04-07, 04:48 PM	Actually, yes it does. See sentence 4. "Effectively, you cast two other spells using this spell's 5th-level spell slot." There is a spell slot involved, and the spell slot is that of the Arcane Fusion. This debunks your claim that the spells cast do not use a spell slot. Furthermore it does say that you cast the spells, effectively. If you want to say that "effectively, you cast" means "You don't actually cast", then be my guest. That's not a good start, though. Effectively, as if. Both of those phrases leading to my conclusion. Remove those terms and there's no confusion. But they're in the spell description, so they must be dealt with. You're choosing to ignore them, or interpret them differently than me. This doesn't prove you right, it only proves you won't acknowledge the spell's wording is odd and leads to multiple interpretations. My arguments don't contradict the RAW, the focus in on those phrases. There's a fine line between RAW and RAI, of course. Making stuff up about temporary spell slots, which has no support in the actul spell text, is your RAI, but sure as hell ain't RAW. All I've done is made the following progression: 1. Spell states that you cast 2 spells 2. RAW says when you cast you can apply metamagic 3. ??? 4. Profit. Point 2 is a blatant assumption in this case. Nowhere in the spell description does it say you can apply metamagic, or that it is free, to the spells resulting from fusion. You're making things up here, to the same degree as my "Is it counted as in your spellbook" argument. It doesn't say that, exactly, but it does say that you cast the spells in a single standard action using the fifth level spell slot used to cast arcane fusion. It says effectively, and as if. Read above. Not sure what you're getting at. The RAW is extremely clear. Just read the damn description. Sentence by sentence it reinforces the fact that using this one spell you can cast two, in a single standard action using one slot. What follows is a very simple application of metamagic and then some CO trickery. Not so clear as you'd like it to be. What the hell does this even mean? Who cares where the effect comes from? It comes from the spell. What matters is who casts the spell! That's all we care about: who casts the spell and what metamagic effects the caster can apply to the casting of that spell. What matters is whether or not you actually cast the resulting spells, or if the spell generates their effect. One allows for spell alteration, the other does not. I don't really have the time or energy to argue with a brick wall here. You're so certain you're right (or at least that I'm wrong) that talking about it is pointless. I can't say you're wrong. Might be right. But you're sure assuming a lot in your interpretation to get the desired effect, and that leads to a shakey combo until resolved. Later guy.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-04-07, 05:14 PM	You're questioning the following equations: "As if cast = cast" "Effectively cast = cast" To you this might mean: "As if cast = not cast" "Effectively cast = not cast" There are only two possible ways to interpret it. Either you cast it or you don't. I think equating "as if cast" to "not cast" is dubious to the point that it's ignorable. Bottom line, your only beef is that you're tripped up on "as if" and "effectively". I figured this was the case, but it sure took a while for it to come out in plain english.
Elsydeon 02-04-07, 05:37 PM	Whatever. Why modify the meaning of "cast" if "cast" needs no modification? You're just ignoring things that don't support you.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-04-07, 05:45 PM	Whatever. Why modify the meaning of "cast" if "cast" needs no modification? You're just ignoring things that don't support you. Why modify it with effectively or "as if"? Simple, because the spells are not cast in the normal manner (shared spell slot, shared action), however... they are to be treated "as if" they were.
Elsydeon 02-04-07, 06:12 PM	Those are explained in the spell description otherwise. No need to modify the word cast to explain the cost. Perhaps it's because there's no moment where you actually cast the spells (no metamagic application)? If the spell did what you think the spell description would be so much simpler than it is. "When you cast this spell, choose a 4th level spell and 1st level spell that you know with x casting time. You cast those spells in one standard action without expending spell slots."
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-04-07, 06:22 PM	Those are explained in the spell description otherwise. No need to modify the word cast to explain the cost. Perhaps it's because there's no moment where you actually cast the spells (no metamagic application)? If the spell did what you think the spell description would be so much simpler than it is. "When you cast this spell, choose a 4th level spell and 1st level spell that you know with x casting time. You cast those spells in one standard action without expending spell slots." It's too bad they didn't consult you when they wrote it. Your argument still doesn't hold water, because if you don't cast the spells who does? The spell description never once mentions that Arcane Fusion casts the spells or creates the effects it's always mentioned that you are the originating caster and therefore you produce the effects. Please, by all means, lets continue to argue over whether or not "effectively cast" means "really cast" or "kind of cast, but not in the way that it normally means, just so I can say that you can't apply metamagic." This is about as retarded as the pun-pun debates on whether Divine Minion actually lets you wildshape like a druid or not.
Elsydeon 02-04-07, 07:50 PM	Nor is it stated that you actually cast the spells. Only that your casting ability determines the effects. *sigh* This is a retarded argument. Just not in the way you mean.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-04-07, 08:04 PM	I told you these arguments are never pretty and never are fun. Don't believe me? It was my first comment in response to yours. But you continued on with it anyways. Bottom line is you don't like equating "effectively cast" or "as if cast" to "actually cast". Try as I might to divorce you of that opinion, I can see that it won't work. All I can say is that the text repeatedly, in sentences 3 and 4, states that you cast the subsequent spells. The enumeration of effects in sentence 5 serves to clarify that this is unlike wish, in which the spell replicates an effect, but at a higher level. The argument you raise is not new, which is why I find it so tiresome. It happens many times in D&D, when the author gets the idea to put a superfluous ajective in front of a verb or noun. See the pun-pun thread.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 02-04-07, 10:22 PM	Indeed. Even more annoying is when someone new comes along and thinks you're wrong, and you have to explain 5 times again to them why it works that way. :bored:
Elsydeon 02-05-07, 12:48 PM	Frankly, your opinion of me isn't going to bother me at all. Nor does your opinion of my argument, which is valid. Dictionary.com: Effectively - in effect: Though a few rebels still held out, the fighting was effectively ended Get it? They're not ACTUALLY done fighting. But it's pretty much the same thing. as if - It was as if the world had come to an end. But it hadn't. Get it? RAW is paramount in your eyes, yes? These definitions of those terms are VALID. Yours are too. But you cannot discount the argument if you hold RAW as the basis for theoretical optimization. Anyone who does is foolish, deluding themselves about definitions, or making an assumption and portraying it as fact. Let's not even get into the fallacy of attacking an argument by attacking the one who posed it. Attacking my character, intelligence, or experience does nothing to invalidate anything I say.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-05-07, 04:23 PM	Assuming you don't actually cast the subsequent spells.... Lets say you don't buy the OP and don't think that "effectively cast" means "actually cast" -- just because you like being difficult. In that case, the subsequent spells are merely effects produced by the Arcane Fusion. If that's the cast then, we may apply the following argument: If the subsequent spells are treated as purely EFFECTS of the spell, then we can apply metamagic directly to the Arcane Fusion itself and the feats would then apply to the effects of that spell. For example, if one maximizes a fireball, the "variable, numeric effects of that spell are maximized". Similarily if one twins a spell, "a twinnes spell causes the spell to take effect twice in the same area or on the same target simultaneously." Notice how, again, it modifies the effects of the spell. So there you have it, if you wish to treat the subsequent spells produced by Arcane Fusion to be EFFECTS of the spell (as in they ARE NOT separate CASTINGS within the spell), then this logic will apply. So either way you look at it: whether you believe the subsequent spells to be merely effects generated by Arcane Fusion or they're actually separate castings using Arcane Fusion's spell slot and std action, you may still apply metamagic. If you can apply metamagic, then the whole trick just falls into place. Quod Erat Demonstrandum.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-05-07, 05:05 PM	Edited my argument... now it makes more sense. Bottom line: Either way you read it, the trick works.
Aegeu 02-05-07, 05:07 PM	One problem: Casting a spell with a metamagic feat extends the casting time, so the spell would no longer qualify for AF. So, if you say that you do actually cast the spells, then adding metamagic prevents you from casting them without some way of removing the extra casting time. But if you don't actually cast the spells, then you can't apply metamagic. It seems like you're trying to have it both ways.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-05-07, 05:10 PM	One problem: Casting a spell with a metamagic feat extends the casting time, so the spell would no longer qualify for AF. So, if you say that you do actually cast the spells, then adding metamagic prevents you from casting them without some way of removing the extra casting time. But if you don't actually cast the spells, then you can't apply metamagic. It seems like you're trying to have it both ways. That's why the spell: Arcane Spell Surge is used. It allows one to reduce the casting time of a full-round action casting spell back to a STD action. Alternatively one could emply Rapid Metamagic from CMag, which eliminates the action increase altogether.
Elsydeon 02-05-07, 05:23 PM	Undesputably, you cast this spell, I don't think anyone had a problem with that, but there it is in the first clause labelled 'a'. The next two clauses tell use that we can choose any two spells we know of a certain level. It doesn't say what to do with them, just that we choose them. Incorrect. Your spells known are the limitation on what spells result from Arcane Fusion. It does not state you cast anything but Arcane Fusion itself. says that the spells chosen must follow one restriction, in addition to the level and the fact that they must be "known" sorcerer spells: they must have a casting time of 1 STD action or less. No questions here. Agreed. a.) Can't say it any better than that. b.) They take effect as if you had cast them. Does this mean that we actually cast them? Perhaps not, you would argue. Does it matter if we actually cast them? In this context, no. Here's why: This says that when you cast a spell you can choose whether to apply metamagic feats or not. Recall that the spells take effect exactly as if you had cast them, with the proviso that the casting time and spell slot is fused for both. Now, had you actually cast them you could have applied metamagic to them. But they take effect as if we had cast them, meaning that if we had cast them we could have applied metamagic to them, WITHOUT contradicting any of the previous conditions. Recall the only conditions on the spells are: within a certain level range, std action casting time, and on the sorcerer's known list. The addition of metamagic does not negate any of these attributes, provided one is under the effect of Spell Surge (which brings the casting time down to STD for full-round casting spells). Therefore, unless any of the following statements indicate otherwise it is possible to apply metamagic to the spells, BECAUSE those spells would still fit the given parameters. Wrong. The spells take effect exactly as if you had cast them, with the exception of casting time. That there is 1 exception is precedent for others. Now, I think we also agree that since the spell (Arcane Fusion) states that you choose known spells, of a specific level, you cannot choose spells that take up a 4th level slot but have metamagic already. This is obvious. You have to choose the spell, which is why you have been careful to add metamagic after the fact. In order to apply metamagic we need 3 things: Spell slots to manipulate, a spell to target, and a moment of casting to apply the metamagic to said spell. All three of these are in question here. 1) Nowhere does it state that you go through the act of casting the 1st and 4th level spells. Only that they take effect as if you had (which implies heavily my line of thought is correct). Taken literally, the only thing that is explicitly stated is what I have bolded. All else is speculation. Your interpretation, is indeed, speculation. This term does not state outright that you don’t, however, so my idea that you do not is also. We are on equal footing. 2) Absolutely nowhere is it stated that the spells are valid targets for metamagic. As they do not consume a spell slot in your spellbook, it is indeed even arguable that they aren’t part of it (not occupying one). Again, we are on equal footing. If they are part of a temporary spell book, or simply aren’t in any spellbook, even if you do cast the spell you have no spell slots to manipulate. See argument 3. 3) If one uses cost-reduction for metamagic, the feats still must be applied in sequence. Meaning if you reduce the cost of an extended mage armor you must have access to a 3rd level slot, even if you reduce it’s cost. Otherwise it’s not a valid target for the +2 (later reduced) in the first place and neither the extend nor reduction can apply. The exception is when the feats are worded similarly to Eschewing material components, which states you can ignore the cost directly. In the case of your metamagic feats, I believe they state that you can reduce the cost. Not that you ignore it. Correct me if I’m wrong here, I can’t say for sure. I don’t have the sources on-hand. The end result of this is 2 areas of shaky ground for your combo. Where the spell ‘resides’ and the presence (or lack) of a moment of casting are in question. Until there is a ruling, or you find a method that gets around these issues, you cannot state this combo works by RAW. This statement does nothing to stop the application of metamagic. In fact it negates the concern that there is no available spell slot to modify. This expressly grants the 5th level spell slot used for Arcane Fusion to apply to the subsequent spells. Wrong again. It explicitly states: it consumes a 5th level spell slot to cast a 4th and 1st level spell. It does not grant the 5th level slot for metamagic application, as two spells can’t (in any version of the game or ruling that I’ve seen) reside in the same slot. A wizard could not store a 1st and 4th level spell in a 5th level slot, for example. Even though it adds up mathematically. You have put forth yet another assumption about the RAW. Lets say you don't buy the previous argument -- just because you like being difficult. Now why would that be? Perhaps its because you don't think the spell allows you to cast the subsequent spells. Perhaps its because you think the subsequent spells are merely EFFECTS of the Arcane Fusion. Well my friend, if you believe that, then I have good news for you: If the subsequent spells are treated as purely EFFECTS of the spell, then we can apply metamagic directly to the Arcane Fusion itself and the feats would then apply to the effects of that spell. For example, if one maximizes a fireball, the "variable, numeric effects of that spell are maximized". Similarily if one twins a spell, "a twinnes spell causes the spell to take effect twice in the same area or on the same target simultaneously." Notice how, again, it modifies the effects of the spell. So there you have it, if you wish to treat the subsequent spells produced by Arcane Fusion to be EFFECTS of the spell (as in they ARE NOT separate CASTINGS within the spell), then this logic will apply. Completely illogical. The Twin Spell feat does what you have stated… simultaneously. The spell takes effect twice. You can twin Arcane Fusion. And you can only pay the cost of 1 standard action in one of them. So Twin away. If you use the standard action that follows in order to cast AF1, you do not cast AF2 as you haven’t fully done what is outlined in the spell description. You cannot use 1 standard action to pay the cost of 2 standard actions (That overlap). Focus is required from the sorceror for each, and nobody can think of multiple things at once. And you cannot delay in order to get the second Twin after the fact, since they take effect (benefit and cost) at the same time. This is not in the casting time of Arcane Fusion (which is susceptible to Twinning) but in the effect section. Waste your time as much as you like. If you dispute this, you’re now arguing that the cost of the spell isn’t RAW. And I’d like to see you pull that off with any believability. I believe this just added another counterargument to my list. Twinning Arcane Fusion to gain the effects of both is not possible.
Think0028 02-05-07, 05:38 PM	Completely illogical. The Twin Spell feat does what you have stated… simultaneously. The spell takes effect twice. You can twin Arcane Fusion. And you can only pay the cost of 1 standard action in one of them. So Twin away. If you use the standard action that follows in order to cast AF1, you do not cast AF2 as you haven’t fully done what is outlined in the spell description. You cannot use 1 standard action to pay the cost of 2 standard actions (That overlap). Focus is required from the sorceror for each, and nobody can think of multiple things at once. And you cannot delay in order to get the second Twin after the fact, since they take effect (benefit and cost) at the same time. This is not in the casting time of Arcane Fusion (which is susceptible to Twinning) but in the effect section. Waste your time as much as you like. If you dispute this, you’re now arguing that the cost of the spell isn’t RAW. And I’d like to see you pull that off with any believability. Doesn't this argument say that NOTHING can be twinned, since MOST ALL SPELLS have a casting time of 1 standard action? You're taking the idea of 'cost' WAY too literally, apparently. It doesn't 'cost' a standard action, the casting time is 1 standard action. Forgive me if I'm wrong.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-05-07, 05:47 PM	Incorrect. Your spells known are the limitation on what spells result from Arcane Fusion. It does not state you cast anything but Arcane Fusion itself. Great observation sparky. I did mention this later on, though. Wrong. The spells take effect exactly as if you had cast them, with the exception of casting time. That there is 1 exception is precedent for others. Now, I think we also agree that since the spell (Arcane Fusion) states that you choose known spells, of a specific level, you cannot choose spells that take up a 4th level slot but have metamagic already. This is obvious. You have to choose the spell, which is why you have been careful to add metamagic after the fact. Yes, I add the metamagic after the fact. I so doing, I do not contradict the selection process. Spell slot is not one of the mentioned restrictions, only spell level. In order to apply metamagic we need 3 things: Spell slots to manipulate, a spell to target, and a moment of casting to apply the metamagic to said spell. All three of these are in question here. 1) Nowhere does it state that you go through the act of casting the 1st and 4th level spells. Only that they take effect as if you had (which implies heavily my line of thought is correct). Taken literally, the only thing that is explicitly stated is what I have bolded. All else is speculation. Your interpretation, is indeed, speculation. This term does not state outright that you don’t, however, so my idea that you do not is also. We are on equal footing. See the second argument, then if you do not believe that the spells are cast. I have shown that it works for both interpretations. 2) Absolutely nowhere is it stated that the spells are valid targets for metamagic. As they do not consume a spell slot in your spellbook, it is indeed even arguable that they aren’t part of it (not occupying one). Again, we are on equal footing. If they are part of a temporary spell book, or simply aren’t in any spellbook, even if you do cast the spell you have no spell slots to manipulate. See argument 3. No it says in sentence 4 that the two spells use a 5th level spell slot. It does not need to explicitly allow metamagic for it to be possible. In the PHB it doesn't explicitly allow you to cast 3 spells at once, but you can if you shapechange into a choker and cast a quickened spell. 3) If one uses cost-reduction for metamagic, the feats still must be applied in sequence. Meaning if you reduce the cost of an extended mage armor you must have access to a 3rd level slot, even if you reduce it’s cost. Otherwise it’s not a valid target for the +2 (later reduced) in the first place and neither the extend nor reduction can apply. The exception is when the feats are worded similarly to Eschewing material components, which states you can ignore the cost directly. In the case of your metamagic feats, I believe they state that you can reduce the cost. Not that you ignore it. Correct me if I’m wrong here, I can’t say for sure. I don’t have the sources on-hand. They are reductions to the cost. Nothing indicates that the reduction need be applied after or before the metamagic effect is applied. They could be applied separately, but simultaneously. It's really not of any importance, given the actual argument I present. Wrong again. It explicitly states: it consumes a 5th level spell slot to cast a 4th and 1st level spell. It does not grant the 5th level slot for metamagic application, as two spells can’t (in any version of the game or ruling that I’ve seen) reside in the same slot. A wizard could not store a 1st and 4th level spell in a 5th level slot, for example. Even though it adds up mathematically. You have put forth yet another assumption about the RAW. Check your PHB. Do all spells say, "And the spell slot that this spell uses may be used to apply metamagic as well." No. If there's a spell slot for the spell, it can have metamagic attached to it. The text says that the spells are cast from one 5th level spell slot. Yes, this is against the norm, but that doesn't mean that the world falls apart and that metamagic is no longer applicable. AGAIN, WHO CARES? If you think that the spell is not cast, then the effect argument applies. If the spell is cast, then you may apply metamagic and the spell slot increases apply to the spell slot which the spells are cast out of, which the text says is a fifth level slot shared by Arcane Fusion and the other two spells. If you use the standard action that follows in order to cast AF1, you do not cast AF2 as you haven’t fully done what is outlined in the spell description. You are capable of doing things simultaneously with twin spell, it explicitly allows this. Both spells take effect at the same time and both spells are resolved at the same time, requiring no action on your part, since all you do is pick the spells and let them go. No need to actually cast them under this interpretation, because the spells are only "effectively cast" by you. Mmmm... the sweet, sweet taste of eating your own words. You cannot use 1 standard action to pay the cost of 2 standard actions (That overlap). Actually read the text please. "using only one standard action" That's how long those two spells take to produce the effect, this doesn't preclude one cramming more spells into that standard action, via twin. Focus is required from the sorceror for each, and nobody can think of multiple things at once. Source? That's right there's no where in the rules where that is stated, thus its an unfounded argument. Psionis do this all the time via schism. Heck I'm doing it right now as I ponder where you get your crazy ideas while writing this message. And you cannot delay in order to get the second Twin after the fact, since they take effect (benefit and cost) at the same time. This is not in the casting time of Arcane Fusion (which is susceptible to Twinning) but in the effect section. Waste your time as much as you like. If you dispute this, you’re now arguing that the cost of the spell isn’t RAW. And I’d like to see you pull that off with any believability. One might, by your logic, claim that twinning is impossible as one is creating two effects for the cost of one. Oh noes! Too bad that's exactly what Twin allows, genius.
Elsydeon 02-05-07, 07:53 PM	Doesn't this argument say that NOTHING can be twinned, since MOST ALL SPELLS have a casting time of 1 standard action? You're taking the idea of 'cost' WAY too literally, apparently. It doesn't 'cost' a standard action, the casting time is 1 standard action. Forgive me if I'm wrong. Actually, that's not what I meant. The casting time issue of Arcane Fusion is what is negated by the twinning. But part of Arcane Fusion's effect is taking a standard action in order to cast, channel, or generate the effect of 1 4th and 1st level spell (pick your interpretation). Since any Arcane fusion will demand immediately afterwords, or during depending on it's actual casting time (swift or 1 standard action, I don't know), that a standard action be used to cause this to happen, you can only offer that standard action up to 1. It is not in the casting time of Arcane Fusion itself (you cast it, and then the spell description occurs. Which has a cost of 1 standard action). This is unlike fireball, which has a casting time, but no required time in the effect description. It's similar to casting Wish (to be consistent in my explanations). You cast Wish in x time. But you require time to 'negotiate' the Wish: Word it correctly, state it, and have the effect come about. A quickened Wish will not reduce the time involved in dealing with the effect, only the time to cast. See the second argument, then if you do not believe that the spells are cast. I have shown that it works for both interpretations. Stating it as fact and it being fact are two different things. You have not shown this. No it says in sentence 4 that the two spells use a 5th level spell slot. It does not need to explicitly allow metamagic for it to be possible. In the PHB it doesn't explicitly allow you to cast 3 spells at once, but you can if you shapechange into a choker and cast a quickened spell. Effectively, you cast two other spells using this spell's 5th-level spell slot. We run into that wording that supports me again. Whether you like it or not, this is a grey area and neither interpretation is more valid. See the definition of effectively for details. They are reductions to the cost. Nothing indicates that the reduction need be applied after or before the metamagic effect is applied. They could be applied separately, but simultaneously. It's really not of any importance, given the actual argument I present. The empower/maximize precedent does indeed show that they need to be applied in sequences unless the feat explicitly says to ignore x amount of the cost increase where applicable. If it says you may reduce the cost, it is a choice (not always on) and must be applied to the spell individually. This means there is a moment in time where a higher spell slot is required before it is then reduced. If you've ever played magic semi-seriously you'll understand the kind of argument I'm making here. That game is nothing but combo's and how the stack functions is critical to every competitive deck. This is the same kind of situation. The text says that the spells are cast from one 5th level spell slot. Again, it does not state that. It says a 5th level spell slot is consumed, and that a 4th and 1st level spell are the result. It does not state that the 2 spells are contained in the 5th level slot. This IS important. You are capable of doing things simultaneously with twin spell, it explicitly allows this. Both spells take effect at the same time and both spells are resolved at the same time, requiring no action on your part, since all you do is pick the spells and let them go. No need to actually cast them under this interpretation, because the spells are only "effectively cast" by you. Mmmm... the sweet, sweet taste of eating your own words. You are capable of causing the effect of two spells with Twin Spell. Think for half a second, without the assumption that I'm wrong or you're right. Please? Theoretically, if you twin a spell with concentration as it's duration, you cannot pay that cost on both and only one spell can result. This is the nature of concentration as a casting time. Agreed? And why you don't see twinned image spells in games. I'm applying the same principle to Arcane Fusion. It has a standard action associated with the cost of the spell (you wouldn't argue that during this standard action you could also cast something else, would you?). Now, if we read it as that length of time is not the casting time itself, this is one of many effects that Arcane Fusion causes. Just what is the casting time of Arcane Fusion? If it's not 1 standard action then there's no argument. The standard action being used is a cost you can't satisfy. They're obviously not the same. So if it's a swift action to cast and a standard action being used is the result... the point I'm making is very obvious. If it's 1 standard action to cast, say you cast a twinned arcane fusion. If for the sake of this argument I give you the best possible scenario: The spell description states that you cast the 1st and 4th level spells as a standard action... you could apply metamagic. What happens when you Twin it? For comparison: Twinned fireball: You create two fireballs that take effect in the same area and at the same time. Each has no other requirements from you, the caster. You create two arcane fusions. Each generating a 4th level and 1st level spell. They take effect at the same time. And as a cost each (due to the spell description) requires 1 standard action be used since this is the spell's actual effect. Fireball has no such property in it's spell description. The inclusion of this line REQUIRES that a standard action is used, where it is not required in Fireball (which only has a casting time you must manipulate). You only have one standard action to give, the sum of your spells requires 2. You are not generating enough actions in the combo to satisfy this part of the spell description. You need two standard actions available any time you twin Arcane Fusion or it's big brother, because those actions are in the actual effect description of the spell. They are a benefit to a sorceror who cannot quicken spells, and a cost to a combo like this (Which is what a spell effect is. Something happens. Whether or not it's beneficial is defined by how you use it). It is not subject to twinning (at least, not the way you're doing it currently), since the effect of the spell IS that a standard action nets you two spells. Then we have to decide if you can actually execute two standard actions simultaneously, since the cost hits at the same time for both fusions. Actually read the text please. "using only one standard action" That's how long those two spells take to produce the effect, this doesn't preclude one cramming more spells into that standard action, via twin. It kind of does. One might, by your logic, claim that twinning is impossible as one is creating two effects for the cost of one. Oh noes! Too bad that's exactly what Twin allows, genius. Then go nuts twinning image spells, claiming that concentration of 1 spellcaster satisfies the requirements of both, and leave logic to other people. Actions represent time and effort. Whether or not you can twin the power, you have not generated enough standard actions (Time, which allows you to exert yourself in certain ways - effort) within a single round to twin this spell. If you come up with a way to do it, the argument falls away. But since the standard action is locked into the spell description (what a twinned spell would create twice), and it's not just the casting time of Arcane Fusion, you would require 2 standard actions taking place at the same time to pay the cost. According to RAW, which you hold dear, the spell description is what happens. The spell properties (casting time, duration, etc) are subject to metamagic. The effect is susceptible only to maximize and empower. There is no Rewrite Metamagic feat. The standard action is part of the effect. The effect is required. The standard action is not available. Twin fails.
bomaz 02-06-07, 12:37 AM	Elsydeon are you claiming that the spell takes 1 standard action to be cast and another one to get the effect?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-06-07, 01:32 AM	You know what. I'm sick of this debate, so I'm going to do what I always end up doing. Changing tack on a dime to circumvent the issues being raised. The solution: Don't metamagic the spells internal to Arcane Fusion, save twinning Arcane Fusion itself. (The argument against this is not worth my time). The problem is a very interesting one. For anyone who's interested in solving the problem (I'm not done with it just yet) here are several crucial technical elements: Twinned Split Sanctum Disintegrate costs 5 spell levels, but outputs 20. Sanctum Twinned Celerity costs 3 spell levels, but outputs two STD actions. Sanctum Twinned Maximized Absorption costs 8 spell levels, but creates 20 storage levels. The idea will be to either do away with arcane fusion (not my current plan) or to generate a recursive chain of celerities, disintegrates, and Absorptions. For example I've developed one sub-chain, which when fed 9 spell levels outputs 10 and 40 new storages levels, but requires a pre-existing storage space of 40 levels. Obviously if one makes a down payment of 9 spell levels and creates the initial 40 spell levels of storage space (requires 16 spell levels for a total of 25 spell levels), one is able to generate a cascade of spells with an output of an infinite number of 1st level spells. The chain looks like this (as best as I can represent it in text...) C = Celerity TC = Twinned Celerity D = Twinned, Split disintegrate Costs 5, produces 20 spell levels ? = Twinned, split something of 4th level and produces 16 spell levels A = Twinned Absorption. Costs 8, produces 20 storage levels O = output (X, Y) = how the products of a twinned celerity are spent. #' = Storage values (like potential spell slots, yet to be filled) X* = this spell paid for by the number of spell levels stored noted with a * -----------C ----------/-\ ---------TC**D->10->O --------/-\---\ -------TC**?**10** ------/-\---\ -----A*--A*---16* ----/-----\ ---20'-----20' Of course, we would like the chain to output more than 10 spell levels (as 9 of those spell levels are immediately consumed to start the next iteration of the chain.) I expect that it will require Arcane Fusion to set up non-simultaneous sub-chains, allowing sub chains to feed eachother on each level, before a critical mass of spells is reached at which point a spell is output and the next level begins. I attempted a solution of this form, but it was fairly complex and didn't turn out. It still needs tweaking. Still searching for a more effective way to multiply spell level inputs. Twinned split sanctum disintegrate is about as efficient as I can get it (a quadrupling of input level).
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 02-06-07, 09:58 AM	I tire of these arguments too. Don't sweat it too much though. Elsydeon, you raise a couple of points that can be countered. When they are countered you just raise more points but you fail to acknowledge T_G's arguments. He has brought up the same points numerable times and you have just ignored them. A standard action is not a cost of Arcane Fusion. It is a superfluous line designed to explain the spell when it was unnecessary. It takes a standard action to cast arcane fusion because that's what it says in the text box for casting time. If you casted a Quickened Arcane Fusion, IT WOULD TAKE UP A SWIFT ACTION!!! No, Elsydeon, you are wrong about the metamagic. metamagic feats cause the spell to take up a higher level spell slot. The spells from Arcane Fusion USE NO SPELL SLOT!! So you can apply as much metamagic as you want to them. I don't see why T_G is straining himself about the word effectively and trying to cater to your opinion about not being able to metamagic the spells inside. If you are effectively casting the spells, but not casting them, and thus were arguing that you could not metamagic them, then you could not justify being able to choose their effects, targets and whatnot. IF YOU ARE NOT CASTING THE SPELLS, THEN YOU CANNOT CHOOSE TARGETS, DIRECTION, POINT OF Impact, ECT. There is no way around this. If you can choose targets, direction, ect. then you can metamagic it, if not then you can't choose anything.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-06-07, 03:33 PM	I appreciate your support Bill, but at this point it's clear that continuing this debate is about as useful as arguing the finer points of physics with a brain-damaged two-year old. I'll just revise the method and push this nuisance under the rug... as I always end up doing. What a collosal waste of my time.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 02-06-07, 04:40 PM	I was just thinking, maybe there is a use for Energy Transformation Field after all. Use Absorption on yourself, have the spells target the field and yourself. and the field spits back a spell for you to use with Absorption. You could even have multiple fields up. I don't know, maybe that helps, maybe it doesn't :cool: Edit: wai wait.....20 Energy Transformation fields in proximity each with a target on the inside of them. Use your 1st level spell from Arcane Fusion to cast a Chained Charm Person. Each of the Fields will shoot back a magic missle at you which will cause you to absorb 20 levels worth of spells.
Aegeu 02-06-07, 07:53 PM	So, with enough cheesy metamagic reducers, is it possible to cast higher level spells out of the infinite first level spells from the new loop?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-06-07, 10:06 PM	So, with enough cheesy metamagic reducers, is it possible to cast higher level spells out of the infinite first level spells from the new loop? I still haven't perfected the method yet. As of now it only has a net gain of 1 spell level output per iteration. That's meaningless unless it also has an accompanying STD action output to use the extra spell levels. As far as metamagic goes there is the usual deluge of feats needed: Twin Practical Metamagic (Twin) Maximize Practical Metamagic (Maximize) Split Ray Arcane Thesis (Disintegrate) Arcane Thesis (Absorption) Arcane Thesis (Celerity) Sanctum Spell That combined with dweomer keeper and we've got: Twin on Celerity, Disintegrate or Absorption: [+4 base slot adjustment -1 thesis -1 practical metamagic -1 Dweomer keeper] = +1 total slot adjustment Maximize on Disintegrate, Absorption, or Celerity: [=3 base slot adjustment -1 practical -1 dweomer keeper -1 Arcane Thesis] = +0 total slot adjustment Split Ray .... [+2 base -1 thesis -1 dweomer keeper] = +0 slot adjustment Sanctum Spell [+0 base -1 thesis] = -1 slot adjustment Add 'em all up and you get... +0 slot adjustment
balor64 02-10-07, 03:38 PM	Edit: wai wait.....20 Energy Transformation fields in proximity each with a target on the inside of them. Use your 1st level spell from Arcane Fusion to cast a Chained Charm Person. Each of the Fields will shoot back a magic missle at you which will cause you to absorb 20 levels worth of spells.IIRC this doesn't work, because the spell description states that when you have overlapping fields, a random one gets the spell levels.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 02-11-07, 12:24 AM	IIRC this doesn't work, because the spell description states that when you have overlapping fields, a random one gets the spell levels. what does IIRC stand for? I hear this all the time. However, there's no overlapping. Each one of these fields would be appropriately spaced apart from each other. And then there would a target in the middle of each of the twenty fields.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-11-07, 12:53 AM	IIRC = If I Remember Correctly or If I Recall Correctly
balor64 02-11-07, 09:53 PM	However, there's no overlapping. Each one of these fields would be appropriately spaced apart from each other. And then there would a target in the middle of each of the twenty fields.Sorry, I guess I misread what you were doing, but it still doesn't work:Energy Transformation Field [paragraph 3] The field absorbs only magic that is actually used within the area. Ongoing magical effects that enter the area, including spells cast from outside the area into the field or continually functioning items such as a +1 mace, are often visibly reduced, but do not have their actual effects hindered.
Think0028 02-11-07, 11:39 PM	Sorry, I guess I misread what you were doing, but it still doesn't work: Really? That's interesting.
Franco Un-American 03-30-07, 12:35 AM	Forgive me if this has already been brought up, but Arcane Thesis doesn't work the way you think it does. As per the FAQ, you apply the -1 slot adjustment only once, after all + slot adjustments from metamagic.
Think0028 03-30-07, 01:50 AM	Forgive me if this has already been brought up, but Arcane Thesis doesn't work the way you think it does. As per the FAQ, you apply the -1 slot adjustment only once, after all + slot adjustments from metamagic. Yes, yes, yes, we've heard it all before, please read at least the last 3 pages before you post, it's a new addition, this was made prior to that and we are now trying to fix it.
The_Mad_Linguist 04-02-07, 04:14 PM	It seems like throwing in the choker's quickness would help... getting more actions could be useful.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-02-07, 07:34 PM	It seems like throwing in the choker's quickness would help... getting more actions could be useful. Yes & No. For Yes, see the latest developments on this subject: Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11965886#post11965886) For No, recall that choker's quickness only grants +1 STD action PER ROUND and since we're doing this all in a single ROUND, it's not of much use.
Psionx 04-09-07, 02:58 PM	I wonder if you could pull this off as a sandwich. There's no way pun-pun would ever suspect a sandwich...
Soluphobe 06-20-07, 04:34 PM	Okay. First off, O Great Ones, please don't hurt me. But isn't there some feat somewhere that allows you to blend two spells to get 1 of greater power using simple additive slots? I.e., sacrifice a 2nd level spell and a 1st level spell to cast a 3rd level spell? In that case, just use Greater Arcane Fusion, then blend the 4 and 7 spells into a Twinned Greater Arcane Fusion. You'll get: GAF{ //GAF #0 GAF{ //GAF#1 Insert clone of GAF#0 here, including this bit } GAF{ //Output Loop. Repeated 1/iteration by GAF #1 4th level spell 7th level spell } } And all you need is GAF! No Absorbtions or anything. Sorry if I've misunderstood this, but if I remember the feat correctly it should work. (I probably don't)
Tleilaxu_Ghola 06-20-07, 10:38 PM	Trust me, were it that simple, I would have probably published it by now. If you're referring to Versatile spell caster it doesn't work the way you remember. You take 2 2nd level spells and get a 3rd level. Ie spend 4 levels, get 3. Not a great bargain. I recently found a new spell which might help: triad spell. 5 spell levels + 3rd level spell = 9 spell levels output. Spend 8, get 9. Course, you mix this with twin and you get: spend 7 (sanctum twinned triad [4] + sanctum twinned celerity [3] ) gives 5x2 = 10 standard actions. I think that's better than any other action generation trick I've devised thus far. The wording on triad spell is as follows: You alter one of your prepared spells so that you can cast it three times before it is expended. The prepared spell must be of third level or lower, and once the triad spell is cast, you can cast the altered spell two additional times (a total of three times) before it is expended. You can use captured spell energy to cast any spell you know or have prepared, but spells so cast don't disappear from your list of prepared spells or count against the number of spells you can normally cast per day... So how it would work is like this: You have a sanctum twinned celerity prepared somewhere. You also have sanctum twinned triad spell prepared. Triad spell targets one of your prepared spells only. So you have to target the actually prepared sanctum twinned celerity. This will be in a 4th level slot, BUT it will be a 3rd level spell, because you're outside your sanctum. Note that Triad spell references the spell level, not the slot level. Now, remember, all spells need to consume a STD action. A prepared celerity will consume an immediate action. This can only be changed by a sorcerer. But it has to be prepared!! Problem? Almost, but not quite. Metamagic is applied to prepared spells before they are cast, metamagic is applied to spontaneous spells as they are cast. The sorcerer needs to spontaneously add some metamagic feat to celerity as it is being cast to increase the casting time to 1 full round. Arcane Surge reduces that to a STD action. I suggest using: Prepared(Sanctum, twin) + Spontaneous(cooperative spell). We use virtual spell energy from absorption to cast a copy of our sanctum twinned triad spell. Target the prepared Sanctum Twinned celerity, and then cast 4x (Cooperative, Sanctum, Twinned) celerity. Basically we pay 4 spell levels (to cast triad spell), but get 8 standard actions out of it. That's 1/2 spell level per STD action. Now, with illumian word Naenhoon + Earth spell + Energy Substitution [cold], we can cast a heightened Glorious Master of the Elements of 10th level by expending 2 turn attempts as a swift action during our power up sequence (you need to change the fire energy type to Cold, making it a spell with the following descriptors [Acid, cold, electricity, cold]. This is required due to a minor technicality of the Earth Spell, which stipulates that no benefit is given to spells with the fire descriptor). Ya can extend it if you like. Duration = 5 rounds. This consumes a 7th level spell slot. The other buffs apply as before, yadda, yadda. Anyways, once you enter the loop you have a couple things going for ya: 10th level spell input that you can activate without cost as a STD action. 4 spell levels gives you 8 STD actions. Hitting myself 4 times gives 40 spell levels, I've paid 4 for 8 actions, I spend 2 more STD actions and 18 more spell levels to get 2 more absorptions for the next cycle. This leaves me with 2 STD actions and 14 extra spell levels per cycle. So that's 1 9th level spell and a 5th level spell or two 7th level spells, or whatever... adding up to 14. Now, if, for some reason, you think that ALL spell levels absorbed must be spent before a new absorption can be accessed. Then I suggest this: Absorption 1: Triad spell (no sanctum). Cast it once, getting 8 STD actions. Cast it once more using another 5 virtual levels, gaining another 8 std actions. Now you have 15 STD actions and the first absorption is completely expended. Its duration expires (once discharged) as it just has been, so we can use the next one. Absorption 2: spontaneously add heighten to the twinned, maximized absorption. This makes it consume 10 spell levels. Absorption 1 is now completely consumed and its duration has expired. This should give access to the next one. Absorption 3: spontaneously add heighten to the twinned, maximized absorption. This makes it consume 10 spell levels. Absorption 1 is now completely consumed and its duration has expired. This should give access to the next one. Absorption 4: cast your output spell + whatever level spell you need to top off the rest of the 10 spell levels. You have the virtual spell levels available and you have the actions. Spend the other actions (4 of them, you used 3-4 so far) loading up your new absorptions. I'll write it up pretty-like later. Tell me what ya think.... if you understand my ramblings.
Soluphobe 06-21-07, 10:59 AM	As my poor brain struggles to understand this, I see one issue. How are you getting turn attempts? Do you just take a level of Cleric or get into some PrC? Or are you using some souped-up Arcane Disciple-style-feat to get the Undeath Domain + Nightsticks? Also, this references spells prepared. Are you still using the UM class feature to get the Arcane Fusion series onto your prepared lists? Or are you using an Arcane Preparation-type fix? I'd love to see the build. As to my mistaken understanding of the feat, it wasn't Versatile Spellcaster (I read the whole thread). It was something else which I can't recall (I think it was from the same book as Southern Magician). But this looks better (It's TG's work, duh...).
Tleilaxu_Ghola 06-21-07, 11:20 AM	Dunno. The plan, I think was something like: Cleric 1/Sorcerer/Dweomerkeeper/Haluraan Elder/ Something like that, I can't exactly remember. Bottom line: you need dweomerkeeper to reduce metamagic costs, so you'll get turning attempts anyways. HE reduces metamagic by 1 more. Arcane Thesis by 1 more. Practiced Metamagic by one more. That gives us twin for free. IIRC, I can get maximize for free too. Feats are lookin' real tight though, if I want to squeeze earth sense, heighten, and earth spell in there too. Also going to need arcane preparation now, apparently. yea, btw, I really don't think this can be done by any other class than sorcerer or bard. Ironically.
Soluphobe 06-21-07, 11:58 AM	You know, this build is essentially Sorc^2. A normal sorcerer can cast lower level spells than a wizard, but can cast them more often. This build can only cast spells of levels 0-7 while in nova, but can do so infinitely. Kinda makes you wonder, doesn't it. BTW: I'm not sure how much this helps, but if you squeeze Residual Metamagic (CMage) into the build somewhere you might be able to ease up on some of the feats for reducing spell costs. Of course, you could only use it during power up, but if you can get off a Twinned Greater Arcane Fusion in one round, next round all your Greater Arcane Fusions are twinned for free as I read the feat. And since you are doing this as 1 Std action... You might be able to drop Arcane Thesis or something, just burn a 9th level slot to power some charge-up spells, then next round you go nova with ultra-twinned GAF's. If you drop the level of HE you might be able to fit in some neat PrC. And you might be able to combine the effects of RM, meaning that you cast GAF from an item, twin it (not sure how that would work), then cast all GAF's next round as twinned. If that works you can drop all the negative metamagic feats to free up lots of room in the build.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 06-21-07, 12:06 PM	The wording on Residual Metamagic is a little funny, since it assumes you can only cast 1 spell per round: If you cast a spell affected by one or more metamagic feats, and then cast the same spell in the next round, you can apply any one of the metamagic effects from the first casting to the second casting, but without any change to the spell's level. The problem is it's worded such that you cast first, then gain the benefit on the second cast. Doesn't allow you to gain the benefit on an infinite number of castings. BTW, the new method should allow for an infinite number of spells of 10th level or lower.