Breaking Warlock [Archive] - Wizards Community

Breaking Warlock [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
loganic1
02-03-08, 01:09 PM I've seen the warlock optimized and bent all different ways. It's a great class, but I'd like to use it thoroughly broken.
It's unfortunately decently balanced and limited in variety, so I don't know quite how badly broken it can get or how hard it would be.

I suppose the only major goal I have with this is curiosity if any of the warlock invocations or unique uses of eldritch blast can be shaped beyond any recognition.

Multiclassing should be allowed, but in order for it to be considered breaking the warlock, it must either be built using warlock as the primary class and/or focusing on an invocation/combo involving an invocation.

So anyone have any ideas how?
CrimsonDeath
02-03-08, 02:43 PM The most broken Warlock concept I've seen is Binder 1/Warlock 7/Bloodline 3/Hellfire Warlock 3/Legacy Champion 6, with Legacy Champion advancing Hellfire Warlock. Bind the Nebarius vestige to heal one point of each ability score each round. With an effective Hellfire Warlock level of 11, you get +22d6 damage from using a Hellfire Blast (for the low price of one Constitution damage), for a total of 30d6 damage on a Hellfire Blast.
PhaedrusXY
02-03-08, 11:11 PM Can't you make a Hivemind at a fairly low level using Warlock? You don't get alot more broken than the H.I.V.E.
loganic1
02-04-08, 02:36 AM I thought about the UMD and had seen the thread hive mind.
Warlock's only specialty with UMD is that he can take 10 on it, but it seems to be in the flavor of the class.

Hmm, that's not bad CD. I can get another 10d6 from Magic Items plus the 2d6 from a typical vitrolic blast. I'll research it, but that's cool.

A combo I've been thinking of, is either eldritch glaive, or even Black Blade of Destruction + hideous blow + Divine power + Haste. I fell in love with BBoD.
I've added little things like that belt of Battle/ custom staff of time stop/castor glove.

Edit: Bad combo. Hideous blow. no pun intended, blows. According to spell description only single attack, where as glaive allows for not only full attack, but lasts technically till the beginning of your next turn so the maximize persists through any and all turn extenders like time stop and belt of battle.

Hideous blow needs to be upgraded with to full attack even if it moves from a lesser or even greater spell for all I'd care XD.
CrimsonDeath
02-04-08, 03:49 AM Can't you make a Hivemind at a fairly low level using Warlock? You don't get alot more broken than the H.I.V.E.

Good call. I keep forgetting about HIVE because I only halfway understand it.
PhaedrusXY
02-04-08, 12:14 PM This is the post I was thinking of in the HIVE thread: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=12055094&postcount=353

Here is another thread about doing this at level 3 as a warlock :D http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/t-722608.html
loganic1
02-04-08, 04:31 PM Thanks guys. UMD is definitely in flavor with the warlock.

And thanks for the Eldritch combo.
PhaedrusXY
02-05-08, 01:40 PM Thanks guys. UMD is definitely in flavor with the warlock.

And thanks for the Eldritch combo.What is it that you're talking about with UMD? The warlock can make a Hivemind without UMD in a less rules-questionable way than someone relying on UMD/caster level abuse.
loganic1
02-09-08, 12:11 PM Working on a 10 warlock/10 Vermin Lord build

Crystal Keep is horrible for reinterpreting things, as I found out, having to go back to the books.

Working on maximizing Castor level at the moment and trying to figure out what the Child of Winter feat does.
Gonna be digging through http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=615672
because that's the only source I found for it. Haven't found any feat builds for it yet, nor which items to use (I'm not going to be setting up 87 items in advance to a battle)

Also plan on trying to figure out how to maximize Concentration, so I can make it last as long as possible.

Edit: No need
NiteCyper
02-09-08, 08:40 PM Are you gonna play Hivemind? There's no reason to play the Hivemind.

The best Eldritch Combo, since Legacy Champion CANNOT advance the abilities like that (Cust Serv response), is the one in my sig. Cyran Avenger.
loganic1
02-09-08, 10:45 PM Meh, I hadn't planned on playing it, but maybe would have used an underpowered version of it in a future campaign.

I figured most things like Hivemind are are not meant to be played unless you need to pull the equivalent amount of firepower for a god boss the DM didn't completely think through or something equivalent.

Don't care to break games, but I think the TCO boards are a great place to learn tricks/combos. Hive mind is a fantastic combo, but needs to be optimized for warlock. To honest, I think the Hivemind is a brute force combo, but is useful

Looked up avenger. It's not a bad class. Together with hellfire, I can get 19d6. I'll look at the hellfire warlock thread to see if I can't get better damage.

I'll keep working the the hive build, but I think it's pretty open and shut.
Lvl 4 warlock, Level 10 vermin lord. Depending on the PrC, I can lose 2 levels of warlock. The other 7-10 levels can be used to buff caster level, maybe up to 25. At that point, I can summon 8 swarms in 4 rounds. If I have 23 concentration, which i won't but, theories sake, That would give me an average of 33 rounds, minus the 4 to summoning, In which I would control a hivemind. I think 3 minutes is typically long enough to end many fights.
They;d be stationary, but could cast spells 8 at a time.

Quick question, It said that the hivemind would be a considered a high level sorceror, so would that mean it got skills/feats? I could get x number of greater spell penetration feats with that XD
and have intimidate checks so high I should be able to kill things with it.
NiteCyper
02-10-08, 08:41 PM HIVE should not be played. Period.

It's like a mentally retarded person with an m249 SAW that liked to pull the trigger and was let loose in a city block on rush hour.
loganic1
02-11-08, 09:07 AM Least powered version of HIVE would be using a warlock to summon a 1500 swarm and using hive mind with it. 37 int, 34 Cha, 17th level caster.

I've had too many DMs try to throw Bahamut at us or an Old God, on a campaign that capped at 20.

If I have to remake a character just to fight said final boss cause we/I died on the two/three runs, there's no way I'm not making a character that's capable of fearing it into pure submission and making it my *****. If it's the final boss, I might as ride it as my mount in my new campaign for world domination.

Apart from any game I start hating with a passion, I don't plan on playing HIVE. It kills the game and I know it.
PhaedrusXY
02-11-08, 03:19 PM What are you talking about with maxing out Concentration to increase the duration of the HIVE? If a spell has a duration of "Concentration", that means it lasts as long as you concentrate on it, which requires a standard action every round. So, it lasts as long as you want, with no limit except that you have to "concentrate" on it.

Concentration
The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you’re maintaining one, causing the spell to end.

You can’t cast a spell while concentrating on another one. Sometimes a spell lasts for a short time after you cease concentrating. From here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration
BetaSquirrell
02-11-08, 08:28 PM Quick question, It said that the hivemind would be a considered a high level sorceror, so would that mean it got skills/feats? I could get x number of greater spell penetration feats with that XD
and have intimidate checks so high I should be able to kill things with it.

No. It has a high Caster Level, not a high Character Level. There is an important difference. Caster level only determines things like duration, damage, and range of spells. It does not grant you access to new class abilities and the goodies (skills/feats/ability score increases) that come with them.
loganic1
02-12-08, 08:58 AM TY PhaedrusXY. I never got around to looking at concentration duration, so I made a bad assumption.

BetaSquirrell, I know what caster level is. The wording for RAW is
"For very point of Charisma over 17, the hivemind has one level of sorceror."

Unless I'm mistaken level typically refers to character level, not caster level, which is why I original wanted to clarify the point about feats and skills.
It continues to give an example that with a charisma of 23, it would cast spells as a 5th level sorceror, referring to to it's base spell slots.
So yes, I believe it has access to class abilities. Since it hasn't actually gained any levels, rather simply has them right off the bat, I'm not so sure if the other 'goodies' you speak off factor in. I mean if you decide to make a decently large hive mind, the skill points don't matter as much, as your charisma is so high, but I'd like to clarify it, regardless.

Edit: I reread it and found the answer. I'm still not sure if it gets the starting skill points/etc, but it does explains that for every point of intelligence bonus of the hivemind, each individual creature, (you and every swarm) gets a bonus feat and 1skill point per hit die.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
loganic1 02-03-08, 01:09 PM	I've seen the warlock optimized and bent all different ways. It's a great class, but I'd like to use it thoroughly broken. It's unfortunately decently balanced and limited in variety, so I don't know quite how badly broken it can get or how hard it would be. I suppose the only major goal I have with this is curiosity if any of the warlock invocations or unique uses of eldritch blast can be shaped beyond any recognition. Multiclassing should be allowed, but in order for it to be considered breaking the warlock, it must either be built using warlock as the primary class and/or focusing on an invocation/combo involving an invocation. So anyone have any ideas how?
CrimsonDeath 02-03-08, 02:43 PM	The most broken Warlock concept I've seen is Binder 1/Warlock 7/Bloodline 3/Hellfire Warlock 3/Legacy Champion 6, with Legacy Champion advancing Hellfire Warlock. Bind the Nebarius vestige to heal one point of each ability score each round. With an effective Hellfire Warlock level of 11, you get +22d6 damage from using a Hellfire Blast (for the low price of one Constitution damage), for a total of 30d6 damage on a Hellfire Blast.
PhaedrusXY 02-03-08, 11:11 PM	Can't you make a Hivemind at a fairly low level using Warlock? You don't get alot more broken than the H.I.V.E.
loganic1 02-04-08, 02:36 AM	I thought about the UMD and had seen the thread hive mind. Warlock's only specialty with UMD is that he can take 10 on it, but it seems to be in the flavor of the class. Hmm, that's not bad CD. I can get another 10d6 from Magic Items plus the 2d6 from a typical vitrolic blast. I'll research it, but that's cool. A combo I've been thinking of, is either eldritch glaive, or even Black Blade of Destruction + hideous blow + Divine power + Haste. I fell in love with BBoD. I've added little things like that belt of Battle/ custom staff of time stop/castor glove. Edit: Bad combo. Hideous blow. no pun intended, blows. According to spell description only single attack, where as glaive allows for not only full attack, but lasts technically till the beginning of your next turn so the maximize persists through any and all turn extenders like time stop and belt of battle. Hideous blow needs to be upgraded with to full attack even if it moves from a lesser or even greater spell for all I'd care XD.
CrimsonDeath 02-04-08, 03:49 AM	Can't you make a Hivemind at a fairly low level using Warlock? You don't get alot more broken than the H.I.V.E. Good call. I keep forgetting about HIVE because I only halfway understand it.
PhaedrusXY 02-04-08, 12:14 PM	This is the post I was thinking of in the HIVE thread: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=12055094&postcount=353 Here is another thread about doing this at level 3 as a warlock :D http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/t-722608.html
loganic1 02-04-08, 04:31 PM	Thanks guys. UMD is definitely in flavor with the warlock. And thanks for the Eldritch combo.
PhaedrusXY 02-05-08, 01:40 PM	Thanks guys. UMD is definitely in flavor with the warlock. And thanks for the Eldritch combo.What is it that you're talking about with UMD? The warlock can make a Hivemind without UMD in a less rules-questionable way than someone relying on UMD/caster level abuse.
loganic1 02-09-08, 12:11 PM	Working on a 10 warlock/10 Vermin Lord build Crystal Keep is horrible for reinterpreting things, as I found out, having to go back to the books. Working on maximizing Castor level at the moment and trying to figure out what the Child of Winter feat does. Gonna be digging through http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=615672 because that's the only source I found for it. Haven't found any feat builds for it yet, nor which items to use (I'm not going to be setting up 87 items in advance to a battle) Also plan on trying to figure out how to maximize Concentration, so I can make it last as long as possible. Edit: No need
NiteCyper 02-09-08, 08:40 PM	Are you gonna play Hivemind? There's no reason to play the Hivemind. The best Eldritch Combo, since Legacy Champion CANNOT advance the abilities like that (Cust Serv response), is the one in my sig. Cyran Avenger.
loganic1 02-09-08, 10:45 PM	Meh, I hadn't planned on playing it, but maybe would have used an underpowered version of it in a future campaign. I figured most things like Hivemind are are not meant to be played unless you need to pull the equivalent amount of firepower for a god boss the DM didn't completely think through or something equivalent. Don't care to break games, but I think the TCO boards are a great place to learn tricks/combos. Hive mind is a fantastic combo, but needs to be optimized for warlock. To honest, I think the Hivemind is a brute force combo, but is useful Looked up avenger. It's not a bad class. Together with hellfire, I can get 19d6. I'll look at the hellfire warlock thread to see if I can't get better damage. I'll keep working the the hive build, but I think it's pretty open and shut. Lvl 4 warlock, Level 10 vermin lord. Depending on the PrC, I can lose 2 levels of warlock. The other 7-10 levels can be used to buff caster level, maybe up to 25. At that point, I can summon 8 swarms in 4 rounds. If I have 23 concentration, which i won't but, theories sake, That would give me an average of 33 rounds, minus the 4 to summoning, In which I would control a hivemind. I think 3 minutes is typically long enough to end many fights. They;d be stationary, but could cast spells 8 at a time. Quick question, It said that the hivemind would be a considered a high level sorceror, so would that mean it got skills/feats? I could get x number of greater spell penetration feats with that XD and have intimidate checks so high I should be able to kill things with it.
NiteCyper 02-10-08, 08:41 PM	HIVE should not be played. Period. It's like a mentally retarded person with an m249 SAW that liked to pull the trigger and was let loose in a city block on rush hour.
loganic1 02-11-08, 09:07 AM	Least powered version of HIVE would be using a warlock to summon a 1500 swarm and using hive mind with it. 37 int, 34 Cha, 17th level caster. I've had too many DMs try to throw Bahamut at us or an Old God, on a campaign that capped at 20. If I have to remake a character just to fight said final boss cause we/I died on the two/three runs, there's no way I'm not making a character that's capable of fearing it into pure submission and making it my *****. If it's the final boss, I might as ride it as my mount in my new campaign for world domination. Apart from any game I start hating with a passion, I don't plan on playing HIVE. It kills the game and I know it.
PhaedrusXY 02-11-08, 03:19 PM	What are you talking about with maxing out Concentration to increase the duration of the HIVE? If a spell has a duration of "Concentration", that means it lasts as long as you concentrate on it, which requires a standard action every round. So, it lasts as long as you want, with no limit except that you have to "concentrate" on it. Concentration The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you’re maintaining one, causing the spell to end. You can’t cast a spell while concentrating on another one. Sometimes a spell lasts for a short time after you cease concentrating. From here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration
BetaSquirrell 02-11-08, 08:28 PM	Quick question, It said that the hivemind would be a considered a high level sorceror, so would that mean it got skills/feats? I could get x number of greater spell penetration feats with that XD and have intimidate checks so high I should be able to kill things with it. No. It has a high Caster Level, not a high Character Level. There is an important difference. Caster level only determines things like duration, damage, and range of spells. It does not grant you access to new class abilities and the goodies (skills/feats/ability score increases) that come with them.
loganic1 02-12-08, 08:58 AM	TY PhaedrusXY. I never got around to looking at concentration duration, so I made a bad assumption. BetaSquirrell, I know what caster level is. The wording for RAW is "For very point of Charisma over 17, the hivemind has one level of sorceror." Unless I'm mistaken level typically refers to character level, not caster level, which is why I original wanted to clarify the point about feats and skills. It continues to give an example that with a charisma of 23, it would cast spells as a 5th level sorceror, referring to to it's base spell slots. So yes, I believe it has access to class abilities. Since it hasn't actually gained any levels, rather simply has them right off the bat, I'm not so sure if the other 'goodies' you speak off factor in. I mean if you decide to make a decently large hive mind, the skill points don't matter as much, as your charisma is so high, but I'd like to clarify it, regardless. Edit: I reread it and found the answer. I'm still not sure if it gets the starting skill points/etc, but it does explains that for every point of intelligence bonus of the hivemind, each individual creature, (you and every swarm) gets a bonus feat and 1skill point per hit die.