Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WizO_Autumn 01-25-07, 09:16 PM	This thread is for a mature, thoughtful reviews of the newest D&D 3.5 publication, The Complete Scoundrel (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/957277200). From an optimization point of view, how is this book? Review Format: No need to summarize the book Review should be between 3-7 paragraphs (or equivalent) Include how useful this book would be to optimizers and how it influences past publications in terms of rules bending and possible power play. Be sure to include your overall opinion- what works, what doesn't, do you recommend it, etc. Purpose: Regulars on the Optimization boards usually know the game better then the majority of players and can provide insight to a new book that many others wouldn't even think of, yet may be very useful to the "average" player. Regulars here are usually thoughtful and comprehensive and their opinions are held in high regard by many readers. Instead of a review found on another site, or even on another board, amateur optimizers and players looking for an extra boost for their character, may appreciate the theoretical optimization a publication may have, as highlighted by a respected reviewer. This is a test. This is only a test. If reviews aren't useful, or even well thought out, future threads such as this may never come to fruition. However, if successful, reviews will be passed indirectly to Research and Development and successful reviewers may be asked for additional opinions.
RadicalTaoist 01-25-07, 10:46 PM	I cannot say enough how much I approve of this initiative; I might buy the book just to partake in it (cashflow problems atm) and strongly recommend any of the CO regulars who own it to drop a review. Your [list] is broken btw, Autumn.
Shadow_Fox_Deepwood_Arche 01-26-07, 11:42 AM	Prestige Classes The Prestige Class section offers many new paths to character development. Complete Scoundrel introduces new classes that focus on skill tricks, luck, traps, and several other areas of expertise that may fall to the Scoundrel of the group to perform. Of particular note, there is a prestige class that offers a new spin on Paladins, The Gray Guard. This "Church Bully" class loosens the restrictions that a paladin often finds herself under. The hierarchy will give you a "slap on the wrist" so to speak when certain vow breaking actions are taken by the paladin, as long as she gets results for the church. This allows players who wouldnt normally play a paladin (due to the strict code of conduct) to explore the role of the church's strong arm in less restrictive ways. Many of the new classes are 3-5 levels and easy to enter which makes multiclassing simple, as a prestiege class that fits your character concept could be a quick and small investment, allowing you to pursue other avenues of advancement. Feats and Skill Tricks This is where a lot of the "optimization" of the book takes place. The new feats presented in Complete Scoundrel allow players to do things they have never been able to do before and push the envelope in terms of power and options. More multiclass feats have been added to the game; feats that let you advance class features from two different classes when levels in either are taken. For example, the Swift Hunter feat allows Ranger and Scout levels to stack when calculating skirmish progression and favored enemy bonuses. Also, the Daring Outlaw feat allows Swashbuckler and Rogue levels to stack when determining sneak attack dice, grace, and dodge bonus. Swashbucklers wont be held in such low regard anymore once their players get ahold of this book and flaunt their impressive 10d6 sneak attack dice! Luck feats are also a new concept. The luck mechanic gives you a pool of "luck rerolls". Each luck feat gives you an additional luck reroll per day and focuses on changing the result of various dice rolls that occur in game, such as (but not limited to) attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks. Skill Tricks are a fun new way to do those cool little maneuvers that might not be represented in the current rule set. Rules are given for running up walls, standing up from prone as an immediate action, and the classic whip grappling hook made famous by individuals such as Indiana Jones and Zorro. There is also a trick that lets you fool flat footed foes into thinking that they have not been injured by your attack, when in fact you have landed a grievous blow! Perfect for those scoundrels with sneak attack dice. Skill tricks require an investment of skill points. When you gain a level, the skill points you earn can be spent on skill tricks instead of raising the ranks of your skills. Many tricks have prerequisites and you can only have so many skill tricks per level. So some planning and plotting is involved as to how and when you will gain those tricks that catch your eye. Spells This section covers new spells that mostly involve sneaky, tricky, or deceptive intent. Several new spells have been added for Assasins, Bards, Rangers, and Hexblades. These spells are shared with Clerics, Druids, Wizards, and Sorcerers. Equipment New and handy equipment has been added to the adventurer's arsenal. Of special note are the new bayonets that can be added to bows and crossbows, allowing you to make melee attacks with them when the going gets tough. New poisons, alchemical items, and magical equpiment are also available. Conclusion Complete Scoundrel offers a bevy of new rules and new options to exploit and optimize. The options presented take old ideas from past books and breathes new life into them, such as multiclass concepts and special luck mechanics. There is something for every character in this book and I consider it to be a must have addition to any persons library.
WizO_Autumn 01-26-07, 01:50 PM	I cannot say enough how much I approve of this initiative; I might buy the book just to partake in it (cashflow problems atm) and strongly recommend any of the CO regulars who own it to drop a review. Your [ list] is broken btw, Autumn. I'll delete these messages eventually so this thread is just reviews-- BUT, since this is the first one of these, I'll respond here: 1) thanks for the link point out. I always forget that silly [ /list] at the end. 2) My thought was to do this for new publications, but I'd love to see a well thought out review of some recent publications as well-- even Complete Mage or ToB would be great to read. Feel free to start those if you have some strong opinions to share, just make sure they are from an optimization point of view to keep them on topic.
Kresalak 01-26-07, 02:51 PM	Am I allowed to be scathing and rude in a review as long as I don't insult the authors of the book?
Shadow_Fox_Deepwood_Arche 01-26-07, 03:11 PM	2) My thought was to do this for new publications, but I'd love to see a well thought out review of some recent publications as well-- even Complete Mage or ToB would be great to read. Feel free to start those if you have some strong opinions to share, just make sure they are from an optimization point of view to keep them on topic. Should those additional reviews be posted in this thread, or are you going to make seperate threads for each book?
WizO_Autumn 01-26-07, 06:02 PM	No to scathing and rude- that's not a mature, useful review. No need to be positive either though. Be honest, but empty insults aren't useful to anyone. If someone would like to review another publication, go ahead and make the thread yourself. Just be sure to include the reviewing guidelines.
awaken_D_M_golem 01-30-07, 05:44 PM	I'll bite on a minor detail , but one that comes up time and again. Psionic - Magic transparency is exactly that. It's not difficult for function (L+1)/2 to occur , and conversely 2L-1 , even if one's education level is at the low end of the recommended age of D&D players. I've relaxed a little about Psi-Bond because the 'magic' references were simpler than rewriting the psi- equivalents , and we all know how much easier it is to copy and paste than to rewrite/edit something. I have not relaxed at all about the Psi-Thief feat ... In essence , this requires psionic-magic transparency to be ditched in the original character , and then necessitate a feat to do what psi-magic transparency already does. This would almost make sense if a 2nd level spell was NOT equal to a 2nd level power , except that they are , and some are direct ports of each other. This being the new and improved version of the OC board , not only is the XPH core , but so is psi- magic transparency. Perhaps the problem is that spells use single digits , and powers use double digits. Yep , it's a minor complaint. A potential solution is to devote the same book space to conversions , instead of weakening duplications.
JesterZero 02-01-07, 03:10 PM	Just to politely point out, I think we're all missing the point a bit here. Specifically, Autumn asked for reviews from an optimizer's POV. I can't contribute much myself since I'm only getting the book tonight, but I imagine that it would look something like thus: I. Intro Paragraph II. PrCs a. PrCs that are broken-awesome b. PrCs that are broken-crap c. Neat tricks regarding PrCs III. Feats a. Feat/feat combos that are awesome b. Feats that are unnecessary (better acheived elsewhere/elsehow) IV. Tricks a. Tricks that are awesome (replace feats) b. Tricks that just aren't worth it. V. Spells VI. Magic Items VII. Etc. In other words, we show the writers/designers what we consider to be the highpoint and lowpoint of the material doing what we do. You all get the idea. Anyhow, not trying to slam anyone's contribution, just pointing out that I think we veered off track. Once I digest the material, I'd be happy to stick my neck out too. :P
awaken_D_M_golem 02-01-07, 06:02 PM	I. Intro Paragraph : as per Jester Zero's suggestion - although I've only perused the book - I started with what I like and what I know. II. sub-category a +b : The Psi-Bond may end up being a speedy and switch-able version of the thrallherd. I'll give it time for anything to pop up. III. sub-category b : The Psi-Thief feat is defacto unnecessary and I suggested a fix. VII. etc ... No recently released book has been error free. I'm not interested in becoming an editor. D&D isn't 'sacred' to me , but my interest is keen - both definitions. There are psionics fans who are aching to be treated to a feast of good stuff. The spell points system that psi- uses is in the extended core a.k.a. the srd. Lets perform check dc of 2 , and sing : "all we are saying , is give psions a chance" VIII : hopefully this doesn't turn into an Eberron Artificer thread war , I got some good answers there IX : and I love the rename of this board ... ah'll be bahk
kilpatds 02-02-07, 12:45 PM	Just to politely point out, I think we're all missing the point a bit here. Specifically, Autumn asked for reviews from an optimizer's POV. a. Tricks that are awesome (replace feats) The skill trick that let's you intimidate anyone w/in 30 ft is something I'd pay a feat for. Normally, using the Demoralize Opponent action is a waste as it's only shaken for one creature for only one round, and it's someone you're threaten so there's likely a better use for your action. This skill trick makes it a lot easier for a party to stack fear modifiers. A Warlock w/ the Beguiling Influence invocation can really use this, and if the party has someone who can cast Fear, or a Dread Necromancer, or Frenzied Berserker, or heck, Just a tank who took Intimidate... Remember, at Panicked, they drop their stuff. :)
JesterZero 02-02-07, 06:26 PM	This will be my attempt to give a summary of the COMPLETE SCOUNDREL book from an optimizer's POV. To that end, I'll be focusing on the high-end content (even if it's specific), and the low-end content (as a cautionary tale). If I don't mention something specifically, it's most likely that I simply perceived it as being middle-of-the-road. PRESTIGE CLASSES Avenging Executioner (SPECIFIC): Fairly easy entrance requirement, combined with another synergistic PrC (such as Ghost Faced Killer) or a sudden strike class (such as Ninja) could make this very interesting as a fear-stacker. Probably done best with some feat combination of Dreadful Wrath, Draconic Presence, Frightful Presence, etc. Note that since it requires BAB +5, you can't slip Ninja in early unless you wish to delay your entrance to the PrC. Cloaked Dancer (GENERAL): Don't waste your time. I can't imagine a situation where a different combination of classes wouldn't be better than this. It seems like it was intended for Bards, but you'd be better off taking 5 levels of Bard. Grey Guard (GENERAL): Expect massive disagreements over how far the code of conduct can be stretched. DM's, you've been warned. Magical Trickster (SPECIFIC): Loses a level of spellcasting, but MIGHT be worth it considering the metamagic goodness that you get in return. Malconvoker (GENERAL): Tastes great with Thaumaturgist. For folks looking for a thematically complete summoner character, this might be nice. Master of Masks (GENERAL): Does a bit of everything, but nothing well. Others may be able to find a very specific niche for this PrC, but I can't. Again, don't waste your time. Mountebank (SPECIFIC): All that comes to mind is that you can get a free improved skirmish 4/day with the 20 foot sidestep. Uncanny Trickster (GENERAL): PrCs that grant continue other classes class features (such as Legacy Champion) make me very nervous. It's quite possible that this could be duck-tailed onto several builds for the cost of a level and still advance them with no downside. If you were going to buy the tricks anyway, and were working with a class with d6 HD or less, 8 skill points or less, medium BAB, and a good reflex save, then a loss of one level equates to 3 bonus tricks, 3 favorite tricks, a class feature, and whatever the skill differential was. FEATS Improved Skirmish, Swift Ambusher, and Swift Hunter just made Scouts viable again, either as mobility melee characters, or as snipers. Expect to see a large influx of builds using these features for these roles. Master Spellthief is also INSANELY good. So, for the price of one feat, any arcane rogue type can get his/her caster level(s) back, AND cast spells in light armor with no chance of failure? Are you kidding me? Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5 just became THE build to beat. Like I said, this is awesome! Psithief, on the other hand, is a terrible feat. Instead of taking this feat, just talk to your DM about adapting the class. In GENERAL, the Luck feats are all very interesting. As Mistwell pointed out, the ability to power them via the Luckstealer PrC from Races of the Wild is a very nice touch. Although, while I love the concept, I'm just not sure that a character with the ability to reroll 5-8 rolls per day really is worth the investment of that many feats. Expect to probably trade power for flavor on these. However, characters that are able to find a way to continually make this work for them, or those in games where there are a limited number of encounters-per-day will probably benefit from this. In GENERAL, the Bardic Music feats just aren't worth it. The ability to trade bardic music for situational benefits isn't a bad idea, but at the cost of a feat it's pushing it, particularly since there are already nice ways to push the envelope with the basic bardic music abilities that far outshine these (thank you Words of Creation!). Edit: Removed Battle Trickster comments due to overlooking the BAB requirement. Amended Luck Feat comments. TRICKS (hopefully, I'll get to this later)
Zemyla 02-05-07, 06:50 PM	Something like Fighter 2/Battle Trickster 3 would net you BAB +5, 3 bonus Fighter feats, and some tricks. You need BAB +5 to get into Battle Trickster.
JesterZero 02-06-07, 05:06 PM	You need BAB +5 to get into Battle Trickster. So you do! That'll teach me to read, review and write instead of sleeping! Thanks for the catch.
Mistwell 02-09-07, 03:59 PM	Master of Masks (GENERAL): Does a bit of everything, but nothing well. Others may be able to find a very specific niche for this PrC, but I can't. Again, don't waste your time. I was surprised to read your reaction to this class. I found it one of the most interesting classes in the book. While I have yet to try and make a build with it, I think it will mesh well with several concepts in a powerful and flavorful way. If anyone wants to read it, it is here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=3
Particle_Man 02-11-07, 05:47 PM	In GENERAL, the Luck feats are all very interesting. I would have liked to see some way to power them or connect them to the Luckstealer or Fatespinner PrC's, particularly the Luckstealer, but no such luck. I think there is a sidebar connecting them to the Luckstealer, on p.73.
JesterZero 02-12-07, 02:25 PM	I was surprised to read your reaction to this class. I found it one of the most interesting classes in the book. While I have yet to try and make a build with it, I think it will mesh well with several concepts in a powerful and flavorful way. If anyone wants to read it, it is here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=3 Don't get me wrong, from a flavor perspective, I really dig the class. It feels a bit like a bardic-esque chameleon, or a great character from Cirque de Soleil run amok. What I have a problem with is the power level and synergism of the class. It can't mesh with builds like the chameleon can, and compared to Binder, it doesn't seem to have much in the way of useful tricks. If you've got some useful builds, I'd love to see them. I've got nothing against the class other than the fact that I can't seem to make it work, but I make no claim to be the best character builder around these parts. :P I think there is a sidebar connecting them to the Luckstealer, on p.73. So there is! I haven't even had a chance to sit down with the book again since that night (curse you work and grad school!), but that makes me very, very happy. I've had a player dying to make a decent luck-based character, and this might actually come off quite well.
wizard of Newfoundland 02-15-07, 07:55 PM	The swift concentration skill trick seems really bad to me, woopie i now have a standard action that i can't use to cast a spell! But I could be wrong but i haven't been able to think of any situation it could be used in and be worth I dunno if that counts as optimization or not but meh...
Paragon_of_Tyr 02-25-07, 11:21 AM	I like the synergy of Quick Draw feat with these two skill tricks: Sudden Draw and Hidden Blade. Sneak Attacks have just taken off to new levels.
Pariah_ex_mortis 02-28-07, 04:01 PM	Currently running a Wiz5/WldMg3/FortFrnd2. Lots of ranks in gambling and he is a lot of fun. The ability to reroll saves is nice on account that we are using the 2nd ad wild surge charts. But really, the uncanny trickster is sooooo sweet. yea you loose a lvl but look at all the other PrCs out thier that net you NOTHING at some lvls. Grey Guards are something I like from a flavor perspective, I mean thier kinda like batman in a way. An anything like Batman is cool. The skill tricks are kinda cool, I almoast want to make a shawbuckler/rogue/dread pirat TWF with rapier and whip. That trick that lets you use a whip as a grappling hook is kinda cool. Thiers also the really awsome one that lets "pinpoint" invisable creatures within 30ft. Handy. 2cp. Cheers
Korwin 02-20-08, 06:41 AM	Are there similiar threads for newer books? Links? cu This thread is for a mature, thoughtful reviews of the newest D&D 3.5 publication, The Complete Scoundrel (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/957277200). From an optimization point of view, how is this book? Review Format: No need to summarize the book Review should be between 3-7 paragraphs (or equivalent) Include how useful this book would be to optimizers and how it influences past publications in terms of rules bending and possible power play. Be sure to include your overall opinion- what works, what doesn't, do you recommend it, etc. Purpose: Regulars on the Optimization boards usually know the game better then the majority of players and can provide insight to a new book that many others wouldn't even think of, yet may be very useful to the "average" player. Regulars here are usually thoughtful and comprehensive and their opinions are held in high regard by many readers. Instead of a review found on another site, or even on another board, amateur optimizers and players looking for an extra boost for their character, may appreciate the theoretical optimization a publication may have, as highlighted by a respected reviewer. This is a test. This is only a test. If reviews aren't useful, or even well thought out, future threads such as this may never come to fruition. However, if successful, reviews will be passed indirectly to Research and Development and successful reviewers may be asked for additional opinions.
RadicalTaoist 02-20-08, 02:02 PM	Secrets of Sarlona
Korwin 02-20-08, 02:07 PM	Thanks.