Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-09-06, 09:41 PM	In a humble effort to continue the grandeur of LordofProcrastination's epic optimization series: Dirty Tricks, I present this trick as a contender for the fifth trick in LoP's series of four dirty tricks. LordofProcrastination's dirty tricks may be found here: [1] (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=540563), [2] (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=546613), [3] (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8027275), [4] (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=563976) Summary: With this trick one is able to create "save" game points, with a minimal cost of 15 XP. The point allows one to adventure for a day and then reload the save game point if something went awry. Ingrediants: Forced Dream (Magic of Eberron) Anticipatory Strike (Complete Psionics) Time Hop Psionic Contingency A psi-crystal Status Imbue Spell-like Ability Sending Stones (Magic Item) (Complete Arcane) Forced Dream: Psion/Wilder 3 [paraphrased]Any time during the rounds/level duration (or minutes per level with 4 pp augment), you can spend a swift action to restart your turn. "When this effect is used, everyone and everything is reset to the state they were at when the subject's turn began. Any spells or abilities used are available again, any damage dealt is healed , any effects incurred are negated, any objects or creatures moved are reset to their original position, and so on. The only exception to this is that any power points spent to manifest forced dream are not recovered..." The power ends when the swift action to do this is expended or when the duration expired. The Trick Manifest psionic contingency on your psi-crystal placing a contingent ancipatory strike on him contingent on the event: returns to the normal timestream from a time hop. Share metamorphosis with your psi-crystal. Transform him into something that isn't immune to mind-affecting compulsions. Heck you could transform him into an object of any size if you wish. Have the party cleric use imbue spell-like ability on the psi-crsytal so that it can use the spell status. Mix with affinity field if you wish the psi-crystal to have knowledge of all party members' condition. Psi-crystal casts status on you or whatever party member you choose. This person's condition will determine whether or not the save-game will be reloaded, so choose carefully. Manifest forced dream on your psicrystal at some time before you fear harm will befall you. Ready a std action to manifest time hop mass contingent on when the psi-crystal moves (tell him to do so), advancing him hours / level ahead in time. With enough ML you can advance your psi-crystal nearly a day. Adventure on your merry way, whilst your psi-crystal is outside the time stream. If your party succumbs to a TPK, your psi-crystal will still be alive and kicking the next day. No time will pass for him and when he comes out of the time hop the contingency will grant him sufficient actions to check the status of the party (provided they are on the same plane as the psi-crystal). The psi-crystal may also use a sending stone to ask whether his master would like to reload or not. If the party member is under a certain condition or if the master tells the crystal to, the save game is reloaded as the psi-crystal spends a swift action to return to the beginning of his turn (which began with you manifesting time hop on him right before he started moving). You may now retry whatever you failed to accomplish. There is a 5% error in the sending transmition if you are not on the same plane as the psi-crystal and the status effect will not work across planes. ??? Profit. Additional premutations, options, and builds forthcoming.
swanyusd 11-09-06, 09:54 PM	Dear God. Now all we need is Craft Save Point.
Vikjunk 11-09-06, 09:56 PM	Only you would spend you time coming up with a limited save game feature for D&D. But then again you seem to love the time hoping powers of Psions. And I think this is one trick you might be able to get past a DM if only used in dire need like you said TPK or if party managed to totally FUBAR the campaign by doing something stupid.
Lafing Cat 11-09-06, 10:06 PM	This seems risky. All that need happen for an entire days adventure to be wasted is for you to be prevented from, or you to forget to contact your psi-crystal in the exact 3-6 seconds after the Time-Hope expires. If you are still alive, and, say, just happened to be stunned for that round, your psi-crystal fails to hear you, and resets the time. Bam. Day's adventure wasted. You can't wait more than that round, because if you were dead, and the psi-crystal waited, after 1 round the psi-crystal's action wouldn't be N hours in the past, and regressing one round wouldn't do any good. It also assumes that the area you are currently at will be safe N hours in the future, which isn't always a valid assumption. In short, I think it works, but it seems a little too risky for typical use.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-09-06, 10:14 PM	The psi-crystal need only be on the same plane as you to determine if you are okay. Provided you end up on the same plane the next day, you should be okay. It could use a little tweaking admittedly, but that's what forums are for. If you see a way to improve the method, suggest away.
Think0028 11-09-06, 10:34 PM	Hehe. Save Crystals. Odd thing is, how would the DM play it? Does he force you to start the day over, risking metagame knowledge? Or does he simply adjucate that whenever something happens that would cause the save function to trigger, he rerolls until it doesn't happen? Safety net to the extreme, man! Throw it a couple years into the future! It's like in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: "I can't die, I haven't met my psicrystal yet."
Carey Z W 11-09-06, 10:52 PM	This seems risky. All that need happen for an entire days adventure to be wasted is for you to be prevented from, or you to forget to contact your psi-crystal in the exact 3-6 seconds after the Time-Hope expires. If you are still alive, and, say, just happened to be stunned for that round, your psi-crystal fails to hear you, and resets the time. Bam. Day's adventure wasted. You can't wait more than that round, because if you were dead, and the psi-crystal waited, after 1 round the psi-crystal's action wouldn't be N hours in the past, and regressing one round wouldn't do any good. It also assumes that the area you are currently at will be safe N hours in the future, which isn't always a valid assumption. In short, I think it works, but it seems a little too risky for typical use. Uh, it's actually rounds a level. So, probably more like a minute or two.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-09-06, 11:01 PM	Time hop mass is hours per level... if that's what you're talking about.
PhoenixInferno 11-09-06, 11:08 PM	Eewwww...
Lokiyn 11-09-06, 11:15 PM	Quintessence (shaper) + Astral Seed (also Shaper) For the win Have your psicrystal delay thier turn (or ready an action). Take your turn to drop him in a quintessence vat. If you die you can use your little ectoplasmic legs to scrape off the quintessence, the crystal seeing another crystal immediately resets Refresh the astral seed and the psicrystal every so often. Hours for powers, but days for saves
Walking Dream 11-09-06, 11:23 PM	Great, we have save points. Now all we need are cheat codes... [Looks over at the Pun-Pun thread] Oh bugger... Nice find Tleilaxu!
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-09-06, 11:43 PM	Quintessence (shaper) + Astral Seed (also Shaper) For the win Have your psicrystal delay thier turn (or ready an action). Take your turn to drop him in a quintessence vat. If you die you can use your little ectoplasmic legs to scrape off the quintessence, the crystal seeing another crystal immediately resets Refresh the astral seed and the psicrystal every so often. Hours for powers, but days for saves Excellent! I cannot sing the praise of this technique enough! For ultimate low level invulnerability, you could devise a "quintessence" clock. It would slowly drain out the quintessence at some known rate after a pre-determined amount of time, the psi-crystal would be freed and able to preform his check. with this modification game saving is possible by 7th level (as soon as you get 4th level powers).
Tweedledope 11-09-06, 11:57 PM	A contingent Word of Recall to a nice room with a typewriter (I hope someone gets this reference) would be swell too...
PhoenixInferno 11-10-06, 12:07 AM	"Wait, wait, wait - that's not what happened..."
Vikjunk 11-10-06, 01:18 AM	Excellent! I cannot sing the praise of this technique enough! For ultimate low level invulnerability, you could devise a "quintessence" clock. It would slowly drain out the quintessence at some known rate after a pre-determined amount of time, the psi-crystal would be freed and able to preform his check. with this modification game saving is possible by 7th level (as soon as you get 4th level powers). You might be better off buying a Monkey Effigy and picking up a pair of Sending Stones from Complete Arcane. By giving the monkey the other stone and set time that you need to report in each day so if the monkey doesn't hear back from you it frees the psi-crystal so that it can reset the game. You might want to have were you have a time window of two or three hours you can call the monkey so that something comes up your not accidentally thrown back in time if you have a minor problem finding time to okay the monkey. This way you’re working with preexisting items so it might be easier to get past a DM. But it would work better if you could give the monkey an item that functions like Status that is attended you though. That way if you die the monkey would know it and let out the psi-crystal to reset the game.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-10-06, 02:02 AM	I like it. Sending stones a touch expensive for my tastes... but it's a start in the right direction. Sending works across planes. Is there any other form of interplanar communication?
Eyeless Blond 11-10-06, 03:48 AM	In particular, any others involving monkies?
Lafing Cat 11-10-06, 04:03 AM	The psi-crystal need only be on the same plane as you to determine if you are okay. Provided you end up on the same plane the next day, you should be okay. It could use a little tweaking admittedly, but that's what forums are for. If you see a way to improve the method, suggest away. Where are you getting the information that the psi-crystal only need be on the same plane? I don't see anything in the Psi-crystal feat, or creature section that mentions this. Telepathic Link (Su) The owner has a telepathic link with his psicrystal out to a distance of up to 1 mile.The owner cannot see through the psicrystal’s senses, but the two of them can communicate telepathically as if the psicrystal were the target of a mindlink power manifested by the owner. For instance, a psicrystal placed in a distant room could relay the activities occurring in that room. This is the only bit that mentions communication between the two at all. Admittedly you could use something like Telepathic bond on it, but I still don't see how that lets you communicate if you're unable to take free actions. As for how to improve the information gathering abilities of the psi-crystal, Well, Metafaculty is the best way I know of to do that. You could use a one shot item of it each time you *didn't* reset the game, via UPD. (if you did reset it, presumably the use of the Metafaculty item would be reverted as well) Could get costly though. Is there some way to get the psi-crystal Metafaculty as a psi-like ability? EDIT: Just noticed the 1 hour manifesting time. Does having time hop manifested on you interrupt things like that? After all, for *you* no time is passing? Can you start manifesting it, and then get time hopped 59 minutes and 9 rounds into it? Double Edit: Now that I think about, even if the psi-crystal acts on your initiative, does that necessarily mean that you two share a turn? Wouldn't you need some way to manifest Forced Dream as an immediate action in order to interrupt your psi-crystals turn? ... For that matter, where does it say your psi-crystal acts on your initiative? Relevant text: When a character’s turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round’s worth of actions. Despite sharing an initiative score, the two of you are still most definitely separate characters. A work around for that would be to have the Psi-Crystal manifest Time Hop on itself. That way way it definitely *is* on its own turn, and as activating Forced Dream is a swift action, it shouldn't have a problem with it's standard action already being used. Linked Power (something else the round before -> Time Hop) would let it have a standard action left over to Divine your status some way, if it turns out that is indeed necessary. Triple Edit:... Never mind, a readied Time Hop would work. X_x Not going to delete it all though, because I am still curious where it says your psi-crystal acts on your initiative.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-10-06, 04:05 AM	Read the sequence. I manifested mindlink on the psi-crystal. Which has range: planar.
Anor 11-10-06, 04:30 AM	As I have always said... psi utterly breaks the game, and feels too much non-d&d. No wonder why it's banned in so many games. Good research tho! Yet one more thing for Wizard to think about.
LogicNinja 11-10-06, 04:43 AM	As I have always said... psi utterly breaks the game, and feels too much non-d&d. No wonder why it's banned in so many games. "It feels too much non-D&D," maybe. But... utterly breaking the game? Psi has a few broken things (Synchronicity abuse, this, and the like)... but overall, psionics is one of the game's best-balanced systems, and remarkably weaker than arcane magic in a straight caster/manifester.
Lafing Cat 11-10-06, 04:48 AM	Read the sequence. I manifested mindlink on the psi-crystal. Which has range: planar. Mindlink says "You can communicate telepathically through the bond even if you do not share a common language." I don't think that means that the other person has a constant awareness of your thoughts. As such, you'd have to actually be able to take the free mental action necessary to send it the thought "Ok, I'm not dead" Being stunned, or dazed, at the GM's discretion, might prevent free actions. Something like yourself having been Time Hopped certainly would. The Status spell is what you're actually looking for, I think. It, conveniently, also works anywhere on the same plane, so have your psi-crystal slap that on you instead, though I don't think anything can save you if your GM time hops you through the round your psi-crystal wants to contact you on.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-10-06, 05:11 AM	The idea is this: mindlink works both ways. So if the psi-crystal CANNOT contact you for some reason he spends his swift action to recall you back in time. Status sounds good... if you're dead the spell ends. So if the psi-crystal cannot know your status he'll know something REALLY BAD happened. Otherwise he'll know what condition you're in and can make a judgement call.
Kuroi Kenshi 11-10-06, 05:12 AM	psi utterly breaks the game, and feels too much non-d&d. No wonder why it's banned in so many games.Yeah, like clerics, druids, wizards, artificers, and archivists don't break the game either? =/ What's the proportion of use of psionic, divine, and arcane use for all the different dirty tricks, anyway? Oh and awesome work TG. Many months ago I was thinking of how to do a save mechanic but never could.
Lafing Cat 11-10-06, 05:25 AM	The idea is this: mindlink works both ways. So if the psi-crystal CANNOT contact you for some reason he spends his swift action to recall you back in time. Status sounds good... if you're dead the spell ends. So if the psi-crystal cannot know your status he'll know something REALLY BAD happened. Otherwise he'll know what condition you're in and can make a judgement call. The way I understand things like mindlink is like a magical telephone. the Psi-crystal can *send* out "Hey Master, are you there?" But unless the master is free to respond with "Yeah, I'm here", which he wouldn't be if stunned or dazed, the Psi-Crystal doesn't know if the master is dead, or just not able to answer. Just like you don't know if the guy on the other end of the phone isn't there, or just isn't saying anything. Status takes care of that though, so its sort of a moot point. (As the psi-crystal would then be able to distinguish between dead and dazed, and can yeah, make a judgement call) Hmm. Would a magic item made by an Initiate of Mystra that cast Status produce a Status that worked even if the target was in an Anti-Magic Field?
FriendlyFrog 11-10-06, 05:51 AM	The way I understand things like mindlink is like a magical telephone. the Psi-crystal can *send* out "Hey Master, are you there?" But unless the master is free to respond with "Yeah, I'm here", which he wouldn't be if stunned or dazed, the Psi-Crystal doesn't know if the master is dead, or just not able to answer. Just like you don't know if the guy on the other end of the phone isn't there, or just isn't saying anything. I don't think that actually matters that much. If you are unable to respond, you're most likely in a situation where you probably might like to "reload" anyway.
Lafing Cat 11-10-06, 05:56 AM	I don't think that actually matters that much. If you are unable to respond, you're most likely in a situation where you probably might like to "reload" anyway. "Whoops, failed my save on a Fire Orb trap on our way out of the Dungeon after the Fighter managed to Vorpal weapon the BBEG we were so worried about killing that we made a save point" Contrived? Maybe. Its still quite nice to have that option. Especially if your GM is the type who likes to point out flaws in the player's tricks through example.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-10-06, 06:01 AM	Yeah, status is a major improvement to the technique. The more the psi-crystal knows the better.
Todd 11-10-06, 12:13 PM	As I have always said... psi utterly breaks the game, and feels too much non-d&d. Can't resist pointing out that Psi has been in *every* edition of DnD from the original small softcovers, to AD&D, to 2nd ed, 3rd, & 3.5 ... except for the Basic DnD game back in the 70's & the more recent "basic" game. It's also in plenty of fiction, most other fantasy RPG games, and even some computer fantasy games. It's genre ... unless of course you are a Tolkien fanatic purist. That said, man TG what a Dirty Trick! Regarding Forced Dream ... what do the folks "reset" remember? Does only the manifester or the target remeber what happened during the period that no longer just happened?
FlimFlam 11-10-06, 12:26 PM	I am not too familiar with Forced Dream or Time Hop, Mass. Let's assume you Time Hop your PsiCrystal 1 day ahead. Should you suffer a TPK 2 hours later, and then the psycrystal comes out of Time Hop 22 hours later (after the TPK), when you return to your "save point", will time have passed?
psly4mne 11-10-06, 12:37 PM	Regarding Forced Dream ... what do the folks "reset" remember? Does only the manifester or the target remeber what happened during the period that no longer just happened?Nobody remembers anything, not even the psicrystal. The only clue that the reset was triggered is that the Forced Dream power is no longer active. I am not too familiar with Forced Dream or Time Hop, Mass. Let's assume you Time Hop your PsiCrystal 1 day ahead. Should you suffer a TPK 2 hours later, and then the psycrystal comes out of Time Hop 22 hours later (after the TPK), when you return to your "save point", will time have passed? No time will have passed, and all memory/record of the situation is erased. As far as you are concerned, you never even manifested Time Hop - all actions and events are undone back to the beginning of the Psicrystal's turn.
FlimFlam 11-10-06, 12:48 PM	No time will have passed, and all memory/record of the situation is erased. As far as you are concerned, you never even manifested Time Hop - all actions and events are undone back to the beginning of the Psicrystal's turn. So why would you need the Time Hop in the first place then? Is it to keep the power durations in "stasis" until the time comes where you may need it?
PhaedrusXY 11-10-06, 12:49 PM	The psicrystal could leave a "note" in the future detailing what it knew before "resetting". It could store this note in a vat of quintessense. This would make a great "scouting" tactic. :D
Todd 11-10-06, 12:52 PM	Nobody remembers anything, not even the psicrystal. The only clue that the reset was triggered is that the Forced Dream power is no longer active. No time will have passed, and all memory/record of the situation is erased. As far as you are concerned, you never even manifested Time Hop - all actions and events are undone back to the beginning of the Psicrystal's turn. So you know that something FUBARed that day but not what. Outside of metagaming how could your character have an idea of what went wrong?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-10-06, 01:03 PM	That's another aspect of the trick that needs improvement. With time regression you would know what happened, but that costs a lot of XP.
Tweedledope 11-10-06, 01:06 PM	That's another aspect of the trick that needs improvement. With time regression you would know what happened, but that costs a lot of XP. Yeah, but if you're going into a situation (say vs. the BBEG) that you may not survive, this Dirty Trick is invaluable. Quick question though, if you do "restart" your round, do you "remember" what happened during the time that you restarted? For instance, if you do your Dirty Trick and then go fight the BBEG...then, you restart your "turn," do you remember what happened during that time that you have reset? -=TD=-
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-10-06, 01:13 PM	*You* aren't really doing anything. The only one who has a possiblity of remembering anything is your psi-crystal -- and he probably wasn't there to see whatever is worth remembering. Basically when you reload the saved game, you get a fresh start at whatever you tried to do... but you don't know whether what you did the last time was good or bad. I dunno. I'm away from my books... someone should check the power description. I can't remember if there are any memory clauses.
Khan the Destroyer 11-10-06, 01:19 PM	Very nice find TG. But why wouldn't the letter writing work? Aside from the fact that Psicrystals can't write? I like the idea of the psicrystal perhaps leaving clues or something about what happened. Though that would assume that the psicrystal knew at the time. What about a Quallith Stylus? It's an item in Lords of Madness that allows one to write with their minds essentially.
Epicweaver 11-10-06, 01:38 PM	Now if it was only possible to combine this with thought bottle to "save" your gained XP as well... Hmmmm...
Lokiyn 11-10-06, 01:44 PM	FORCED DREAM Telepathy (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] Level: Psion/wilder 3 Display: Auditory and mental Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft. / 2 levels) Target: One creature Duration: 1 round/level Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Power Resistance: Yes (harmless) Power Points: 5 The “I”, through their connection to “D/Q”, have discovered a way to induce a forced dream state in which a creature gains a limited ability to reshape its own reality. While this power is active, any time during its turn the target can choose (as a swift action) to “restart” its turn. Everything that has transpired since the start of its turn is erased, effectively allowing the target to step back a moment in time to relive the turn. Doing this ends the power’s duration. When this effect is used, everyone and everything is reset to the state they were at when the subject’s turn began. Any spells or abilities used are available again, any damage dealt is healed, any effects incurred are negated, any objects or creatures moved are reset to their original position, and so on. The only exception to this is that any power points spent to manifest forced dream are not recovered (meaning that if you manifest the power and activate its effect in the same turn, you return to the start of the turn but you do not get back the power points you spent to manifest the power.)Augment: If you spend 4 additional power points, the duration of the forced dream increases to 1 minute per level. Well here is the actual text of the power from Magic of Eberron. It appears to be a total Tabula Rasa power. It looks like that this power is similar to the effects of a dreamscape. Anything preformed in the dreamscape has no effect on outside the dreamscape. In this case its the powers duration rather than an actual area. It appears that the only way to move information is to somehow place something outisde of the reach of the reset. For example something that might be possible is to have quintessence on hand, before hand and place your note in the quintessence right before the reset. In theory because the quintessence exists before hand it moves back to its original position, however because at the time of the reset the note itself was functionally nonexistant (outside time) it should remain. However i suspect that even the note would be effected by the reset mechanics.
Khan the Destroyer 11-10-06, 01:46 PM	Ughh... this is reminding me of Pun-Pun vs. Terminator stuff. I'm out. Peace. :P
BarbeChenue 11-10-06, 02:04 PM	Wouldn't your Psycrystal die when you do? I assume that's what would happen, right?
Lokiyn 11-10-06, 02:31 PM	In theory a readied action (upon my masters demise) Would interrupt the end of the animating bond that powers the psicrystal. So the instant the crystal is removed from quintessence its readied action (the ending of the psicrystal bond) allows it to trigger its swift action as a sort of last gasp. Of course this means that you need to be careful as one of the primal psions from the past might have died and his crystal is waiting, hidden and lost. So you see a crystal scrape the goo off and reality (for the Psion and his crystal revert to some ancient past. The key here is the inexplicable power loss. Like wizards and spell slots, psionic characters are aware of thier power points, from the point of view of the psion he has lost 5 pp with no explaination, cluing him in that at some point in the next 24 hours (assuming you refresh the point every 24 hours) he will do something that will lead to his death. Of course the problem with this is that the psicrystal is the one using the power. however since you manifested it the clause The only exception to this is that any power points spent to manifest forced dream are not recovered Kick in. So as long as your psicrystals turn begins at the same as yours (summons and such normally go on the same initiative count, so its not out of bounds to share a turn [same initiative count]) So you go to manifest forced dream and realize that for some reason your power point pool is less than it should be, clueing you in that something had forced a reset.
HaikenEdge 11-10-06, 02:50 PM	Except you won't know what forced the reset. Nonetheless, I love this mechanic. Props to TG.
Runeblood7 11-10-06, 03:28 PM	two things funny on the rp side of this... The BBEG prepares his speach, characters whack him, happens again, and the characters thinking: "Didn't we hear this speach before?" Woe be to the party who's nemesis uses this trick. Make sure the part of your personality you put into the psicrystal is suited to the task of thinking of using this trick. I can just see a worrying psicrystal bobbing back and forth in the air, pacing, wondering what it is going to do next. wonderful mechanic T_G
Endarire 11-10-06, 08:46 PM	Think of the effects it has on reincarnate! -EE
Tenebrous_Sage 11-11-06, 12:44 AM	Good job T.G. Tired of dying? Wish you didn't have to roll up new characters so often? Don't worry; now you can save your game. All you need is a psi-crystal, Forced Dream and Tleilaxu Ghola's mad skillz. As I have always said... psi utterly breaks the game...Stop right there. This covers exactly why psionics aren't broken. I would highly recommend it to anybody that thinks otherwise.
Adolph_Kheebler 11-11-06, 01:58 AM	It doesn't work for 2 reasons: 1. Mindlink has a duration of 10 min/lv. That gives you a couple hours. That is still good, but not invincible. 2. Most importantly you don't know what might happen to your psi-crystal in the future. A psi-crystal traveling alone is one of the most vulnerable targets in the game. Any competent dm that didn't like this would just squish your psi-crystal while it is ahead in time. However if you get your dm to agree not to squish your psi-crystal this is completely insane.
Tenebrous_Sage 11-11-06, 02:16 AM	It doesn't work for 2 reasons: 1. Mindlink has a duration of 10 min/lv. That gives you a couple hours. That is still good, but not invincible.The duration isn't going to expire due to the time hop.2. Most importantly you don't know what might happen to your psi-crystal in the future. A psi-crystal traveling alone is one of the most vulnerable targets in the game. Any competent dm that didn't like this would just squish your psi-crystal while it is ahead in time.What, exactly, is going to happen to your psicrystal for the less than 6 seconds it exists by itself in the future?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-11-06, 02:18 AM	It doesn't work for 2 reasons: 1. Mindlink has a duration of 10 min/lv. That gives you a couple hours. That is still good, but not invincible. 2. Most importantly you don't know what might happen to your psi-crystal in the future. A psi-crystal traveling alone is one of the most vulnerable targets in the game. Any competent dm that didn't like this would just squish your psi-crystal while it is ahead in time. However if you get your dm to agree not to squish your psi-crystal this is completely insane. The duration in question is suspended by the use of time stop or quintessence. No time passes for the psi-crystal so the mindlink will still be active for him... though it probably won't be active for the original manifester. Hmmm.... Here's the new plan. Rary's telepathic bond (permanentitized) on the psi-crystal and you. That solves duration problems. But we need a back up plan. Status will do the job. Now we the psi-crystal knows the condition of his master (if he's on the same plane and he can talk to his master if he's on the same plane before making the decision to regress.) Think the psi-crystal will be vulnerable? That can be fixed. If you think your psi-crystal may respawn in a dangerous position feel free to buff him up. All the buffs you put on him will be there when he returns in the future. I already suggested metamorphosis. Morph him into a very powerful defensive form. Or, for lower levels, have the party mage make him invisible. Simply hiding your psi-crystal well would be a good idea... provided your DM doesn't metagame this tactic out of existance. But you know what? If you don't like using (and possibly losing) your psicrystal. Just use an expendable creature who is capable of making judgment calls. For example, you could summon a creature. Summon a powerful creature. Use my method (minus the metamorph part because that only works on psi-crystals) and time hop him into the future. Give the summoned creature the proper instruction set and you're good to go. Actually, you know what... summoned creatures may be better. Why? Because you really only need this creature to exist for one round after the timehop. We just need a more "fool-proof" plan to figure out what happened to the master. Any ideas?
Adolph_Kheebler 11-11-06, 02:33 AM	If you are a psion capable of time hop to that extent you would probably be better off with a mind controlled commoner or something. Possibly even a mind seeded commoner version of you.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-11-06, 02:40 AM	Remember mass time hop has duration hours per level... it is an 8th level nomad only power however... by the time you get mass time hop it will last up to 15 hours without modification. Slap an extend on that puppy and you're already over a day. That's why quintessence is preferred -- it's fourth level with no limit to the duration.
Adolph_Kheebler 11-11-06, 03:40 AM	The other thing is why do you even need a whole day? 15 hours sounds like it would suffice for most things I could think of. I doubt you are adventuring for more than 15 hours at a time without rest. I would keep a mind seeded commoner of yourself to send on these. Mind control would pass the duration unless you are a thrallherd. 18th level you take expanded knowledge for mind seed if you are a nomad or for time hop if you are a telepath. Either way you get both powers and this insanity actually works.
kilroo 11-11-06, 09:06 AM	Good job T.G. Tired of dying? Wish you didn't have to roll up new characters so often? Don't worry; now you can save your game. All you need is a psi-crystal, Forced Dream and Tleilaxu Ghola's mad skillz. So...incredibly...sigged.
FromTheShadows 11-11-06, 03:37 PM	While we're on this topic... Could you somehow pull an 'extra life' by using Craft Contingent Spell in combination with Pact of Return (from HoH)?
Endarire 11-11-06, 04:05 PM	What's pact of return do? -EE
Desvelar 11-11-06, 04:36 PM	Could we start statig some levels and bookd so i can playtest this
FromTheShadows 11-11-06, 04:39 PM	Essentially, it allows you to name a specific circumstance (such as energy drain) or a specific creature that will cause your death. If said source (which can't be simple hit point loss) or creature winds up killing you (or simply 'playing a part in your demise'), you are instantly affected by a Resurrection with no level loss whatsoever. Even better, you can apply the thing more than once with different conditions for each casting. Assuming you could find a good condition on which to trigger Craft Contingent Spell, you could activate Pact of Return just before your BBEG of choice does you in, meaning you get to pop right back up with full hit points and such. That, or you could make a one-use item of the thing shaped like a green mushroom, small blue and white spaceship, the phrase '1up', or your character's head.
Endarire 11-11-06, 05:35 PM	You could also get a contingent item of revivify and heal. -EE
FromTheShadows 11-11-06, 05:48 PM	Good point. Each method seems to have its pros and cons, though. Revivify + Heal costs more (needing two spells and a costly component for one of them), can be done earlier (Heal is 6th level, PoR is 7th), and is generally more reliable. Pact of Return should cost less, but comes into play later and is more specific/riskier. I wonder if there's any other methods of gaining an 'extra life' out there somewhere?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-11-06, 06:48 PM	Okay... there's a problem folks. I'm surprised no one caught it. In each round of the power’s duration, on what would have been the subject’s turn, it can attempt a DC 15 Wisdom check. Success allows the subject to return. The subject can act normally on its next turn after this power ends. Crap. That eliminates time hop as a viable means of casting the subject into the future because he needs to activate it the same turn that he wants to regress. Time hop + time regression works, but that incurs a 1000 XP cost. How about quintessence, which I had lauded so highly? Well, it's not as RAW as time hop... it doesn't ever come out and say, "no time passes from the perspective of the encased subject." Though it certainly insinuates that... quitessence is still viable, in my mind, but it's horribly vague in the rules text. So before anyone gets too excited about this trick, this major problem needs to be resolved. Unfortunately, I'm not seeing any good ways to resolve the problem. The basic concept of this trick is as follows: a character needs to start their turn and have everyone else act inbetween before finishing its turn. That's what I thought time hop did... but that's wrong. Like I said, the idea works for time regression because you can start and end your turn, time hop forward, then regress back to before you time hopped. Alas, it's a 9th level power and I don't know of a good way to eliminate the XP costs.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-11-06, 06:59 PM	One possible solution is to enter a really slow time field and return in the same round that you left for the field. For the partial round that you were gone, you would have missed perhaps days of action in the normal time field, but could still regress time back to just before you left for the slow time field. Problem with this solution: slow time fields are difficult to come by and partial rounds are not a defined term in D&D.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-11-06, 07:10 PM	Another possible, and much more attractive solution: You take your normal action for the round at the time you manifest this power, rather than waiting for your turn to come up in the initiative sequence. psionic contingency immediately brings into effect the companion power, the latter being “manifested” instantaneously only when the prescribed circumstances occur The key here is that ancipatory strike goes to great lengths to explain that you don't actually act on your turn, that it just gives you actions. So you could contingency an anticipatory strike to occur when you pop back into the timestream, allowing you to act before your next turn... when means that you would then go back to the beginning of your original turn which began a day ago. The problem here: this requires 15 ML + 15XP to manifest the contingency.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-11-06, 07:22 PM	Ayup... that's it folks. Back to normal. I think the antipatory strike trick will work. Course that increases the cost of this trick by 15 XP, but that's not too bad if you ask me. You can view the edited sequence (with many of the issues previously mentioned) adressed. We still need a better spell than status...
Lokiyn 11-11-06, 07:31 PM	Another possible method is to combine temporal regression and Forced Dreaming in one combo. [1]Forced Dream [2]Timehop [3]Temporal Regression (one use Item) [2]Activate Forced Dream Negating item use
Desvelar 11-11-06, 07:53 PM	Make a sry or buy one a scroll wand anything for what you need so here LoP stuff Wand Surge, a feat from Magic of Eberron, allows characters to activate a spell-trigger item (i.e. wand or staff) by spending an action point in the place of a charge. Great, but most people have only a handful of action points to spend in a career, let alone in a day. However, I have found two methods of attaining endless action points. The first is well-known, but under-used. Unfettered Heroism, a spell from Races of Eberron, grants a free action point every round. Persistify this spell with [Divine Metamagic/Spelldancing/Incantrix's Metamagic Effect/Metamagic Item/Etc] and there's a free spell castable every round of every day from now to enternity.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-11-06, 07:54 PM	Well... that' debatable. As your method stands, it doesn't gain anything from forced dream. You go: --|-BOT-THM------------------------THE--|--TRM ^ | |-------------------------------------------| BOT = beginning of turn | = turn separation line THM = Time hop manifested THE = Time hop ends TRM = Time Regression Manifested Follow the arrow, and that's where you end up after the Time Regression. If you then used forced dream, you would end up (once you activated it which would have to be on your turn so at BOT, you would just go back to BOT). Now since you started the round with a depleted item, it would fix anything. However if you used my anticipatory strike trick, with that, you would go back 2 rounds and expend no charges. THAT's nice...
Lokiyn 11-11-06, 08:54 PM	hmmm, i had something that worked but i jotted this down and can't for the life of me remember what it was that was different. Ah well, something odd though was share powers (su) Time regression and a psicrystal. Manifest Time Regression on your psicrystal with some information which he tells you in the last round. Now even though normally you would still pay the xp cost from time regression since its still in your subjective past if you manifest it on the crystal you lose both the subjective and objective event. *maybe it was, if you manifest time regression on yourself as above the item is refreshed, as the power undoes the effects of everyone elses actions, which since the psicrystal is affected should undo your act of using the item when you go back, as compared to you using the item and being left with an uncharged rock. i can't remember the original hmmmm
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-12-06, 06:07 PM	Anyone have ideas for improving on the judgement call portion of this trick? Status is good, but it doesn't tell us everything. Permanent rary's telepathic bond would be a good idea I think. Is there anything that would work across planes and would work in a full-round worth of actions? Scrying and similar effects have too long of a casting time to work, unless we can work out a good trick to bypass that. Remember the psi-crystal needs to do the checking, not you, so feats available are more limited.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-12-06, 06:14 PM	drat... sending would be pretty good, if we could imbue our psi-crystal with it. It's only got a 5% chance of error across planes. Hmmm... Like mentioned earlier sending stones would do the trick. I'll add that to the OP.
Tenebrous_Sage 11-12-06, 06:55 PM	You could always use Rary's Interplanar Telepathic Bond from the Planar Handbook.
Desvelar 11-12-06, 07:15 PM	Also Artificer to make any items we need maybe
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-12-06, 08:30 PM	You could always use Rary's Interplanar Telepathic Bond from the Planar Handbook. Good find, except the duration has something to be desired. 10 mins/ level and no option for permanancy.
Tenebrous_Sage 11-12-06, 08:53 PM	You could research applying permanency to it, but that would be reliant on DM fiat. You could go for a continuous use item, but that would cost 198,000 gp, a little pricey. Wouldn't the quintessence hold the spell in stasis?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-12-06, 09:13 PM	For the person in quintessence, yes. For the adventurer bonded to the person in quintessence, no.
Edea 11-12-06, 09:24 PM	This looks like it took quite a bit of thought, I like it. I have some really stupid questions, so please don't hack me to bits for asking them, but would it be possible for the psicrystal to be the one to go with the adventuring party, and the psion himself to undergo a time hop and perform the save game mechanics? Would the problem with that be the chances of whether or not something would actually be wrong with the psicrystal once the psion came back into the normal timestream? Is there a contingency that could be placed on either the psicrystal or its 'carrier' to remedy that? Or is it that you wouldn't want to be stuck playing a psicrystal for the adventure :P ?
Tenebrous_Sage 11-12-06, 10:20 PM	Status is good, but it doesn't tell us everything. Permanent rary's telepathic bond would be a good idea I think. Is there anything that would work across planes and would work in a full-round worth of actions?What does Greater Status from Heroes of Battle look like? The one from the Eberron Campaign Setting doesn't look promising, but Heroes of Battle is newer, I think. It might have a better version.
Edea 11-12-06, 10:32 PM	What does Greater Status from Heroes of Battle look like? The one from the Eberron Campaign Setting doesn't look promising, but Heroes of Battle is newer, I think. It might have a better version. Its casting time is one minute, it affects 10 creatures per caster level, and has a range of Medium rather than touch. Spell level Clr5. Otherwise, just like status.
The_Mad_Linguist 11-12-06, 10:48 PM	You could always use Rary's Interplanar Telepathic Bond from the Planar Handbook. Could that be contingencied somehow?
Endarire 11-13-06, 05:34 PM	Deck of Many Things. -EE
olothfaern 11-13-06, 06:34 PM	Deck of Many Things. -EE oh, that's filthy...
Ixian_Device 11-13-06, 06:58 PM	nice trick! (referring to deck of many things)
Edea 11-13-06, 07:00 PM	Assuming you can get your hands on one...that'd be nice.
Lyinginbedmon 11-13-06, 07:01 PM	So the instant the crystal is removed from quintessence its readied action (the ending of the psicrystal bond) allows it to trigger its swift action as a sort of last gasp. Of course this means that you need to be careful as one of the primal psions from the past might have died and his crystal is waiting, hidden and lost. So you see a crystal scrape the goo off and reality (for the Psion and his crystal revert to some ancient past. Well, now I don't need to worry about how to make a time machine :P Seriously, there's a plot device in my campaign setting that effectively does just this every 2000 years and takes a third of the planet with it Stop right there. This covers exactly why psionics aren't broken. I would highly recommend it to anybody that thinks otherwise. It can be called Prisma Tic's Law of D&D: With enough sourcebooks, anything is either possible or made easier :P
Tenebrous_Sage 11-25-06, 04:47 AM	Soul Link might work for this build. It provides status, telepathy, and scrying. The only problem is that the telepathy only works if the linked are on the same plane.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-25-06, 12:48 PM	Soul Link might work for this build. It provides status, telepathy, and scrying. The only problem is that the telepathy only works if the linked are on the same plane. I don't see that spell/power in the consolidated spell list, the SRD, or CPsi. Would you mind citing a source?
Tenebrous_Sage 11-25-06, 12:52 PM	Fiendish Codex I
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-25-06, 12:58 PM	Hmm... it does certainly sound nice. If you mix the transdimensional metamagic feat with it, I think it might work on the shadow, ethereal, and material plane all at once, no?
Tenebrous_Sage 11-25-06, 01:07 PM	A transdimensional spell has its full normal effect on incorporeal creatures, creatures on the Ethereal Plane or the Plane of Shadow, and creatures within an extradimensional space in the spell’s area.That's not how I read the feat.
Lokiyn 11-25-06, 02:45 PM	It does, you have to remember the various planar interactions Both the Etheral and Shadow plane are coterminus and coexistant to the Material plane however neither are connected to the other save through the material plane. +1--Etheral----- 0==Material=== -1--Shadow---- Its impossible to on both the ethereal and shadow planes at the same time. Assume that we go with the flatland model of planes. On the material all spells and effects have a Z value of 0. The etheral plane is +1 and the shadow plane is -1. A force effect has value of [0,1] allowing it to extend to the ethereal from the material but not from the etheral to the material. A transdimensional effect has a value of [-1,1] extending it to the shadow and etheral and possible in another direction or two to catch those ethereal based extradimensional spaces.
Tenebrous_Sage 11-25-06, 05:45 PM	The feat only mentions targeting Lokiyn, not effect. So, while we could target a creature on the plane of shadow/ethereal plane with a transdimensional Soul Link, the spell would have its "full normal effect;" which means this line of the spells description would remain in tact: "You and the subject can also communicate telepathically as long as you are both on the same plane."
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-25-06, 05:49 PM	Okay -- here we go: Contingent Scry. It can see across planes. Bumps the XP cost up to 30 per game save though...
Tenebrous_Sage 11-25-06, 05:56 PM	Soul Link allows you to scry the subject of the spell by concentrating. This function (along with the Status function) work across planar boundaries, and the spell lasts for 1 hour/level.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-25-06, 06:24 PM	Soul Link allows you to scry the subject of the spell by concentrating. This function (along with the Status function) work across planar boundaries, and the spell lasts for 1 hour/level. WICKED SICK!! Now, what level spell is this? (I don't have fiendish codex I)
Tenebrous_Sage 11-25-06, 06:31 PM	7th level Sor/Wiz, 6th level bard.
WizO_Autumn 01-24-07, 10:14 PM	Challenges such as this belong on the Optimization Challenge board... hence the teleport!
Tenebrous_Sage 01-25-07, 02:44 AM	Challenges such as this belong on the Optimization Challenge board... hence the teleport!You seem to have had a busy week.
Carwyn_Nhung 02-28-07, 11:47 PM	With this ability and a different kind of information gathering spell, you could use the save-game system to ask certain questions about the future, and imediately know the answer. Also I think it would be brilliant if the great threat to a campaign world was someone who had made a quintessence clock thousands of years ago, but before it was meant to release the crystal something jammed the mechanism. The protragonists would then have to stop someone from releasing the crystal and rewinding the last few millenia! As a threat though, you are surely only one readied dispel psionics away from stopping it, although I'd hate to be the one to fail that check!
Aegeu 03-07-07, 03:16 PM	With this ability and a different kind of information gathering spell, you could use the save-game system to ask certain questions about the future, and imediately know the answer. Also I think it would be brilliant if the great threat to a campaign world was someone who had made a quintessence clock thousands of years ago, but before it was meant to release the crystal something jammed the mechanism. The protragonists would then have to stop someone from releasing the crystal and rewinding the last few millenia! As a threat though, you are surely only one readied dispel psionics away from stopping it, although I'd hate to be the one to fail that check! I so want that in my campaign. The trouble is, if the PCs fail, what will happen once time progresses to the point it was regressed from? Will it be the same? Will the ancient clockmaker make it work properly this time? Will the PCs still exist? Will they just keep repeating the adventure over and over until they get it right?
Lyinginbedmon 03-07-07, 04:14 PM	Neato, groundhog day! :D
Aegeu 03-15-07, 09:59 PM	Whoa, I didn't even realize that. Now I know the perfect way to drive my players insane.
Wizard Random 03-18-07, 11:15 PM	Whoa, I didn't even realize that. Now I know the perfect way to drive my players insane. Quoted!
strange_person 03-27-07, 05:15 PM	If only there was some way to make this into an item… artifact-level, most likely, and usable only by creatures meeting certain highly specific requirements (such as, must be under a Geas effect with a particular phrasing; every save point requires a different, highly specific quest), and immovably massive (like a standing stone)… just so you can have people who really are destined to succeed, because they'll keep Groundhogging until they get it right. Kind of like the Soulbound template from Heroes of Horror, crossed with some of those planar temporal anomalies from the MotP, and the PCs won't complain because they can get in on the deal themselves. Edit: Majora's Mask D20!
Lokiyn 03-27-07, 09:25 PM	This already exists. Spellweaver "lore" has that the spellweavers like all the other bit races once ruled the multiverse with powers comparable to gods. Before thier grand experiement which would have elevated the entire spellweaver race to diety or beyond status they recorded the universe in a series of gems, if one can gather then gems and preform the ritual the spellweavers can reset the universe to before the catastophic experiment.
strange_person 03-27-07, 10:17 PM	Yeah, but I'm thinking of something a little more like this (http://www.rpgworldcomic.com/d/20010314.html).