Don't like "Theoretical" optimization ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Don't like "Theoretical" optimization ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
awaken_D_M_golem
10-28-07, 03:53 PM Change the Channel.

If instead you've been hit by an Enchantment (compulsion) to stick around anyway ...

If you know the rules,
and your DM knows the rules,
and your bff-Tordek, knows the rules,
and the rules are applied equally, fairly, and accurately,

wouldn't you like to know why an Adept is greater than a Fighter, and
wouldn't you like to know why the Candle of Invocation is a no no, and
wouldn't you like to know why bff-Tordek is crying about the Cleric of the party ROX too much, and
wouldn't you like to know why some smidgen of the rules aren't allowed at your table ?!
:rolleyes:

This thread started because:
Once again-

This thread is not for the discussion of theoretical optimization in general. Start a new thread for that if you want.
Enchantment (compulsion)
Drat. I failed my save.
archerpwr
10-29-07, 12:30 AM Major sense of deja voo...
BillTheManiac
10-29-07, 09:45 PM Also cross-posted: TO is a different game from D&D. The rules are the same, except for the removal of rule 0, and the objectives are different. They (I don't contribute, I just watch) aren't even trying to make the most powerful character ever. They already did that. They want to make really powerful things in new and interesting ways. They share the two most important traits to make good D&D players: Creativity and a knowledge of the rules. Yeah, roleplaying ability falls under creativity.
awaken_D_M_golem
10-30-07, 04:29 PM Knowledge of the Rules ... doesn't that include role-playing ?!

archerpwr Major sense of deja voo...

{ ... children's story book voice ... }

I looked in a book by Monte Cook.
Those were wings that I mistook.
I thought those wings were squiggly things.
Lots and lots of squiggly things.
I spent my penny on a book, die 20.
I bought a book and took a look.

This continues on for hours and hours ...

I think I'll check my 1st Edition.
It may confirm my initial suspicion.
I'm suspicious of Cook books.
And squiggly looks that might be wings or squiggly things.
Dieties and Demi-Gods with Cthulhu.
I don't know why I'm gonna do.
Somebody told me it was : Deja Vu.
Somebody told me it was : Deja Vu.
Somebody told me it was the Shining too.
And Jack was typing, through and through.
Somebody told me it was : Deja Vu ...

This continues for hours and hours ...

:coolcthul I didn't know those things were wings, I just thought they were squiggly things.
BillTheManiac
11-02-07, 07:47 AM roleplaying=creativity and acting skillz. Acting isn't important, creativity is.
Soluphobe
11-02-07, 08:12 PM roleplaying=creativity and acting skillz. Acting isn't important, creativity is.

This makes a lot of sense - I agree.
Turkey_Lurky
11-04-07, 03:28 AM Okay... I'd like to know. Why is an Adept better than a fighter?
Callix
11-04-07, 06:33 AM Okay... I'd like to know. Why is an Adept better than a fighter?

Scrolls and wands. Fighters have no spell list and buy UMD as cross-class, with its prohibitively high DCs. Even though adepts get higher levels of spells later, and many of their spells are higher level than clerics or sor/wiz, they can use normal-priced scrolls and wands. That gives them the power and flexibility to beat fighters.
CrimsonDeath
11-04-07, 12:55 PM That gives them the power and flexibility to beat fighters.

Okay, now I'm curious to see an Adept power build.
PhaedrusXY
11-04-07, 01:12 PM It's been done on here before. There was a thread analyzing fighter vs. adept at alot of different levels, using just the core rules. The adept comes out on top at the later levels, and does fairly well at all levels. Sorry, I didn't save a link.
archerpwr
11-04-07, 01:34 PM It's been done on here before. There was a thread analyzing fighter vs. adept at alot of different levels, using just the core rules. The adept comes out on top at the later levels, and does fairly well at all levels. Sorry, I didn't save a link.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=831774
I love search
PhaedrusXY
11-05-07, 01:05 AM Man, I tried using google, with all kinds of restrictions, and still couldn't find it...

I see that I didn't remember it all that accurately, either. People were discussing all kinds of stuff, not just core rules. :P
Khadmus
11-09-07, 07:58 PM Why is the candle a no-no?
awaken_D_M_golem
11-10-07, 02:39 PM 1st you click your link,
then you Candle-ize an Efreet or a Noble Djinn
now your one wish gets you ... *
An Efreet singing two lines of this song,
and then get another Efreet to sing you the next two lines
repeat

OK, this is so *obvious*, people, how could any of us have MISSED it? It's been RIGHT IN FRONT OF US, the WHOLE TIME!!!

Peter, Paul and Mary KNEW what was going to happen to Dragon magazine! It's all RIGHT THERE in the song "Puff the Magic Dragon"! And it's SO CLEAR!!!

What's worse -- it is impossible to avoid seeing the DIRE PREDICTIONS that the song also holds for the future of all tabletop RPGs!

Look! Here's the lyrics to the song:

*
Chorus:
Puff, the magic dragon lived by the sea
(Puff the "magic Dragon" obviously represents Dragon magazine, and "by the sea" is a clear reference to Wizards of the Coast!)

And frolicked in the autumn mist in a land called Honah Lee
("Honah Lee" is an anagram for "One Hale H" -- obviously Hasbro, the second largest toy and games manufacturer in the world! As for the "Autumn Mist", we already know that the last issue of Dragon comes out in SEPTEMBER!)
*
Little Jackie Paper loved that rascal Puff,
(Obviously Jackie Paper represents the print format of the magazines, "loving Puff" as the print format treated Dragon so well for the thirty years of its existence)

and brought him strings and sealing wax and other fancy stuff.
(Here Jackie, in addition to representing the paper that was the literal substance from which Dragon was created, also represents the freelance fan who submits material to Dragon magazine, bringing him (the magazine) all sorts of new material to print).
*
(Chorus, twice)

Together they would travel on a boat with billowed sail
Jackie kept a lookout perched on Puff's gigantic tail,
*
Noble kings and princes would bow whene'er they came,
Pirate ships would lower their flag when Puff roared out his name.
*
(Here "together" speaks not only of Puff and Paper but also of Dragon and Dungeon magazines. The last adventure path to be completed in Dungeon will be Savage Tide, featuring pirates and extensive ship travel)

(Chorus)

A dragon lives forever but not so little boys
(The fantasy genre will continue to exist forever, but RPG materials in print format -- Jackie Paper -- will not.)

Painted wings and giant rings make way for other toys.
("Painted Wings" (DDM) and "Giant Rings" (large gaming groups) will be replaced by "other toys" (probably computers and consoles for MMORPGs). Alternately, Hasbro may simply shut down WotC in order to focus on other, more profitable divisions.)

*
One grey night it happened, Jackie Paper came no more
And Puff that mighty dragon, he ceased his fearless roar.
(There'll be nobody to advertise pen-and-paper RPGs on a large scale once they cease to be commercially published.)
*
His head was bent in sorrow, green scales fell like rain,
Puff no longer went to play along the cherry lane.
*
Without his life-long friend, Puff could not be brave,
So Puff that mighty dragon sadly slipped into his cave.
(This third verse refers to the effect on players. Having lost the form of pleasure that mattered most to us and the only offline group activity we were interested in, many of us become depressed and spend more and more of our time at home -- PLAYING MMORPGs!)
*
Do you see where things are headed?!? Can you not SEE?!?

It's ALL RIGHT THERE!!! It's SO OBVIOUS!!! So CRYSTAL CLEAR!!!

What are we going to do?!? What ARE we GOING to DO?!?

- Ron ^*^
PhaedrusXY
11-14-07, 12:29 PM Dude... that is too awesome for words. I felt a chill.
BillTheManiac
11-14-07, 08:42 PM I only wish the thread was a little less one-sided. Preaching to the choir isn't fun for long. We can assemble the perfect defense, but then to continue we need someone to demolish and/or flame it. That's why we derail it.
CrimsonDeath
11-14-07, 10:28 PM I only wish the thread was a little less one-sided. Preaching to the choir isn't fun for long. We can assemble the perfect defense, but then to continue we need someone to demolish and/or flame it. That's why we derail it.

Well, this was started because someone started complaining about the practice of theoretical optimization in the Pun-Pun thread.
BillTheManiac
11-16-07, 10:34 AM Well, this was started because someone started complaining about the practice of theoretical optimization in the Pun-Pun thread.
I know. I was there. Then he left, and did not come to this thread. No one else has came.
CrimsonDeath
11-16-07, 01:13 PM I know. I was there. Then he left, and did not come to this thread. No one else has came.

Yeah, that's why I haven't really contributed to this thread. There's nobody to argue against...
Think0028
11-16-07, 10:01 PM That Puff the Magic Dragon analysis was awesome.

Also, I'd play devil's advocate here, but I'd either be saying things contrary to how I think totally or be stereotypically stupid and create a straw man of the opposition in myself.

Dur, I use logic to cover up my stupidity about TO, hehe!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
awaken_D_M_golem 10-28-07, 03:53 PM	Change the Channel. If instead you've been hit by an Enchantment (compulsion) to stick around anyway ... If you know the rules, and your DM knows the rules, and your bff-Tordek, knows the rules, and the rules are applied equally, fairly, and accurately, wouldn't you like to know why an Adept is greater than a Fighter, and wouldn't you like to know why the Candle of Invocation is a no no, and wouldn't you like to know why bff-Tordek is crying about the Cleric of the party ROX too much, and wouldn't you like to know why some smidgen of the rules aren't allowed at your table ?! :rolleyes: This thread started because: Once again- This thread is not for the discussion of theoretical optimization in general. Start a new thread for that if you want. Enchantment (compulsion) Drat. I failed my save.
archerpwr 10-29-07, 12:30 AM	Major sense of deja voo...
BillTheManiac 10-29-07, 09:45 PM	Also cross-posted: TO is a different game from D&D. The rules are the same, except for the removal of rule 0, and the objectives are different. They (I don't contribute, I just watch) aren't even trying to make the most powerful character ever. They already did that. They want to make really powerful things in new and interesting ways. They share the two most important traits to make good D&D players: Creativity and a knowledge of the rules. Yeah, roleplaying ability falls under creativity.
awaken_D_M_golem 10-30-07, 04:29 PM	Knowledge of the Rules ... doesn't that include role-playing ?! archerpwr Major sense of deja voo... { ... children's story book voice ... } I looked in a book by Monte Cook. Those were wings that I mistook. I thought those wings were squiggly things. Lots and lots of squiggly things. I spent my penny on a book, die 20. I bought a book and took a look. This continues on for hours and hours ... I think I'll check my 1st Edition. It may confirm my initial suspicion. I'm suspicious of Cook books. And squiggly looks that might be wings or squiggly things. Dieties and Demi-Gods with Cthulhu. I don't know why I'm gonna do. Somebody told me it was : Deja Vu. Somebody told me it was : Deja Vu. Somebody told me it was the Shining too. And Jack was typing, through and through. Somebody told me it was : Deja Vu ... This continues for hours and hours ... :coolcthul I didn't know those things were wings, I just thought they were squiggly things.
BillTheManiac 11-02-07, 07:47 AM	roleplaying=creativity and acting skillz. Acting isn't important, creativity is.
Soluphobe 11-02-07, 08:12 PM	roleplaying=creativity and acting skillz. Acting isn't important, creativity is. This makes a lot of sense - I agree.
Turkey_Lurky 11-04-07, 03:28 AM	Okay... I'd like to know. Why is an Adept better than a fighter?
Callix 11-04-07, 06:33 AM	Okay... I'd like to know. Why is an Adept better than a fighter? Scrolls and wands. Fighters have no spell list and buy UMD as cross-class, with its prohibitively high DCs. Even though adepts get higher levels of spells later, and many of their spells are higher level than clerics or sor/wiz, they can use normal-priced scrolls and wands. That gives them the power and flexibility to beat fighters.
CrimsonDeath 11-04-07, 12:55 PM	That gives them the power and flexibility to beat fighters. Okay, now I'm curious to see an Adept power build.
PhaedrusXY 11-04-07, 01:12 PM	It's been done on here before. There was a thread analyzing fighter vs. adept at alot of different levels, using just the core rules. The adept comes out on top at the later levels, and does fairly well at all levels. Sorry, I didn't save a link.
archerpwr 11-04-07, 01:34 PM	It's been done on here before. There was a thread analyzing fighter vs. adept at alot of different levels, using just the core rules. The adept comes out on top at the later levels, and does fairly well at all levels. Sorry, I didn't save a link. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=831774 I love search
PhaedrusXY 11-05-07, 01:05 AM	Man, I tried using google, with all kinds of restrictions, and still couldn't find it... I see that I didn't remember it all that accurately, either. People were discussing all kinds of stuff, not just core rules. :P
Khadmus 11-09-07, 07:58 PM	Why is the candle a no-no?
awaken_D_M_golem 11-10-07, 02:39 PM	1st you click your link, then you Candle-ize an Efreet or a Noble Djinn now your one wish gets you ... * An Efreet singing two lines of this song, and then get another Efreet to sing you the next two lines repeat OK, this is so obvious, people, how could any of us have MISSED it? It's been RIGHT IN FRONT OF US, the WHOLE TIME!!! Peter, Paul and Mary KNEW what was going to happen to Dragon magazine! It's all RIGHT THERE in the song "Puff the Magic Dragon"! And it's SO CLEAR!!! What's worse -- it is impossible to avoid seeing the DIRE PREDICTIONS that the song also holds for the future of all tabletop RPGs! Look! Here's the lyrics to the song: * Chorus: Puff, the magic dragon lived by the sea (Puff the "magic Dragon" obviously represents Dragon magazine, and "by the sea" is a clear reference to Wizards of the Coast!) And frolicked in the autumn mist in a land called Honah Lee ("Honah Lee" is an anagram for "One Hale H" -- obviously Hasbro, the second largest toy and games manufacturer in the world! As for the "Autumn Mist", we already know that the last issue of Dragon comes out in SEPTEMBER!) * Little Jackie Paper loved that rascal Puff, (Obviously Jackie Paper represents the print format of the magazines, "loving Puff" as the print format treated Dragon so well for the thirty years of its existence) and brought him strings and sealing wax and other fancy stuff. (Here Jackie, in addition to representing the paper that was the literal substance from which Dragon was created, also represents the freelance fan who submits material to Dragon magazine, bringing him (the magazine) all sorts of new material to print). * (Chorus, twice) Together they would travel on a boat with billowed sail Jackie kept a lookout perched on Puff's gigantic tail, * Noble kings and princes would bow whene'er they came, Pirate ships would lower their flag when Puff roared out his name. * (Here "together" speaks not only of Puff and Paper but also of Dragon and Dungeon magazines. The last adventure path to be completed in Dungeon will be Savage Tide, featuring pirates and extensive ship travel) (Chorus) A dragon lives forever but not so little boys (The fantasy genre will continue to exist forever, but RPG materials in print format -- Jackie Paper -- will not.) Painted wings and giant rings make way for other toys. ("Painted Wings" (DDM) and "Giant Rings" (large gaming groups) will be replaced by "other toys" (probably computers and consoles for MMORPGs). Alternately, Hasbro may simply shut down WotC in order to focus on other, more profitable divisions.) * One grey night it happened, Jackie Paper came no more And Puff that mighty dragon, he ceased his fearless roar. (There'll be nobody to advertise pen-and-paper RPGs on a large scale once they cease to be commercially published.) * His head was bent in sorrow, green scales fell like rain, Puff no longer went to play along the cherry lane. * Without his life-long friend, Puff could not be brave, So Puff that mighty dragon sadly slipped into his cave. (This third verse refers to the effect on players. Having lost the form of pleasure that mattered most to us and the only offline group activity we were interested in, many of us become depressed and spend more and more of our time at home -- PLAYING MMORPGs!) * Do you see where things are headed?!? Can you not SEE?!? It's ALL RIGHT THERE!!! It's SO OBVIOUS!!! So CRYSTAL CLEAR!!! What are we going to do?!? What ARE we GOING to DO?!? - Ron ^*^
PhaedrusXY 11-14-07, 12:29 PM	Dude... that is too awesome for words. I felt a chill.
BillTheManiac 11-14-07, 08:42 PM	I only wish the thread was a little less one-sided. Preaching to the choir isn't fun for long. We can assemble the perfect defense, but then to continue we need someone to demolish and/or flame it. That's why we derail it.
CrimsonDeath 11-14-07, 10:28 PM	I only wish the thread was a little less one-sided. Preaching to the choir isn't fun for long. We can assemble the perfect defense, but then to continue we need someone to demolish and/or flame it. That's why we derail it. Well, this was started because someone started complaining about the practice of theoretical optimization in the Pun-Pun thread.
BillTheManiac 11-16-07, 10:34 AM	Well, this was started because someone started complaining about the practice of theoretical optimization in the Pun-Pun thread. I know. I was there. Then he left, and did not come to this thread. No one else has came.
CrimsonDeath 11-16-07, 01:13 PM	I know. I was there. Then he left, and did not come to this thread. No one else has came. Yeah, that's why I haven't really contributed to this thread. There's nobody to argue against...
Think0028 11-16-07, 10:01 PM	That Puff the Magic Dragon analysis was awesome. Also, I'd play devil's advocate here, but I'd either be saying things contrary to how I think totally or be stereotypically stupid and create a straw man of the opposition in myself. Dur, I use logic to cover up my stupidity about TO, hehe!