Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wizard Random 01-28-08, 09:51 PM	I think by now we all know about the Embrace/Shun trick to grab some "free" feats. However I have a friend right now who understands how it works but thinks that you cannot use the trick on feats that are gained from classes or racial in nature. He says that because the Class lets you use the weapon/armor/ then you do not actually Gain the feat. Just some sort of random universal dictate that lets your character use said item with proficiency. Example 1: Elves are proficient with 5 weapons. Rapier/Longbow/etc etc, he says you cannot switch any of these out because they are not actually feats. Example 2: Druid weaon/armor proicences cannot be switched because they are not actual feats. I tell him if they are Proficent with the item then they HAVE to have the feat. I understand how it works, but it seems he won't believe me until I get some cooperation.
The_Mad_Linguist 01-29-08, 02:10 AM	I think by now we all know about the Embrace/Shun trick to grab some "free" feats. However I have a friend right now who understands how it works but thinks that you cannot use the trick on feats that are gained from classes or racial in nature. He says that because the Class lets you use the weapon/armor/ then you do not actually Gain the feat. Just some sort of random universal dictate that lets your character use said item with proficiency. Example 1: Elves are proficient with 5 weapons. Rapier/Longbow/etc etc, he says you cannot switch any of these out because they are not actually feats. Example 2: Druid weaon/armor proicences cannot be switched because they are not actual feats. I tell him if they are Proficent with the item then they HAVE to have the feat. I understand how it works, but it seems he won't believe me until I get some cooperation. Races explictly have the weapon feats, classes do not (but do have armor feats). For example: Special Fighters, paladins, and clerics automatically have Armor Proficiency (heavy) as a bonus feat. They need not select it. Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.
CrimsonDeath 01-29-08, 04:33 AM	However I have a friend right now who understands how it works but thinks that you cannot use the trick on feats that are gained from classes or racial in nature. He says that because the Class lets you use the weapon/armor/ then you do not actually Gain the feat. What Linguist said. Also, Embrace the Dark Chaos does not require that you gained the feat sometime in the past, only that you posess it when the spell is cast. (It doesn't really matter which way Shun is worded, since you you explicitly "gain" a feat from Embrace.)
Senevri 01-29-08, 06:15 AM	So basically, once you get Embrace/Shun, it's possible to have ALL the heritor feats? What sort of a build would that require? Is it sufficient is one is an Elf with at least 13 int, dex wis and 15 cha? Oh, and sneak attack/natural weapon or unarmed strike? ...it's already getting complicated.
Wizard Random 01-29-08, 03:20 PM	This is good I will be able to show him this thread and hopefully turn that frown upside down! :clap:
awaken_D_M_golem 01-29-08, 07:47 PM	Yep, those Weapon Proficiencies are only "virtual" feats, unless it says something specific like bonus feat. Shield, Tower Shield, Light Medium and Heavy Armor are bonus feats. You only want one of the Chaos-y feats at a time, otherwise you have to role-play something terrible happening in your families' deep dark past. Waah. OTOH - Elder Evils lets you dedicate yourself to an Elder Evil and gain a [vile] feat at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th levels. More evil dirty fun.
CrimsonDeath 01-30-08, 02:50 AM	You only want one of the Chaos-y feats at a time, otherwise you have to role-play something terrible happening in your families' deep dark past. Waah. I think it's okay if you're Chaotic, or have the Ordered Chaos feat.
BetaSquirrell 01-31-08, 08:38 PM	So basically, once you get Embrace/Shun, it's possible to have ALL the heritor feats? What sort of a build would that require? Is it sufficient is one is an Elf with at least 13 int, dex wis and 15 cha? Oh, and sneak attack/natural weapon or unarmed strike? ...it's already getting complicated. Just keep taking classes that grant armor proficiency, be an elf, and rock out. Every level you swap out your proficiency feats, next level you get them back.
CrimsonDeath 01-31-08, 09:54 PM	Just keep taking classes that grant armor proficiency, be an elf, and rock out. Every level you swap out your proficiency feats, next level you get them back. Most classes that grant armor and weapon proficiency simply grant proficiency without granting the relevant feats, so that won't actually work.
PhaedrusXY 02-01-08, 12:59 AM	Most classes that grant armor and weapon proficiency simply grant proficiency without granting the relevant feats, so that won't actually work.Umm... I understand that is the case about weapons (proficient with all simple weapons, for example), but for armor? There are only three armor proficiency feats. If you're "proficient with light armor"... you have the feat Armor Proficiency: Light. This is listed under the Armor proficiency feats, as stated above. Special All characters except wizards, sorcerers, and monks automatically have Armor Proficiency (light) as a bonus feat. They need not select it.
CrimsonDeath 02-01-08, 01:45 PM	Umm... I understand that is the case about weapons (proficient with all simple weapons, for example), but for armor? There are only three armor proficiency feats. If you're "proficient with light armor"... you have the feat Armor Proficiency: Light. This is listed under the Armor proficiency feats, as stated above. Good point.
Apocalypse_Child 02-04-08, 01:33 PM	But you can take any feat once you have shun the dark chaos casted, right? So at least in gestalt, fighter karmically becomes the most useful class ever, because I can trade my crappy bonus fighter feats for practical metamagics and metamagic feats and spell thesises galore. Unless I'm missing something. Dragonblooded Grey Elf Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Shadowcraft Mage 3/Archmage 1/Shadow Adept 1 //Fighter 20 Normal Feats 1 Iron Will 2 Extend Spell 3 Spell Focus: Illusion 4 Spell Focus: Whatever 5 Arcane Thesis: Silent Image 6 Earth Sense 7 Earth Spell Fighter Feats 8 Heighten Spell 9 Practical Metamagic: Heighten Spell 10 Shadow Weave Magic 11 Quicken Spell 12 Practical Metamagic: Quicken Spell 13 Persistent Spell 14 Practical Metamagic: Persistent Spell 15 Practical Metamagic Chain Spell 16 Practical Metamagic: Twin Spell 17 Practical Metamagic: Maximize Spell 18 Greater Spell Focus: Illusion Incantatrix Feats 19 Chain Spell 20 Empower Spell 21 Twin Spell 22 Maximize Spell Shadow Adept Feats 23 Insidious Spell 24 Pernicious Spell 25 Tenacious Spell Wizard Feats: 26 Still Spell 27 Spell Mastery (Swapped out Scribe Scroll) Elf Feats: 28 Signature Spell: Silent Image 29 Arcane Disciple: Luck 30 Improved Shadow Reality 31 Residual Magic 32 Skill Focus: Spellcraft 33 Leadership Archmage power: Arcane Reach So I can automatically cast in armor (If I want), hit with any touch spell, maybe swap in craft wondrous item and swap it out again once I get my lich's phylactery @ 20th, and all for the cost of like, six wishes. I kind of feel soiled even posting that build, but is it legal? (I'm disregarding the racial prereqs, but I guess you could slap on a stoneblessed level or three)
Omen_of_Peace 02-05-08, 04:21 AM	Nice, but can't you use armor proficiencies to do better ? You dip Fighter, exchange them, regain them by going into Paladin, Cleric (with domains that grant feats)... and then re-exchange them ? 3+ feats/level... I also recommend the Magical Locations in Complete Scoundrel (for instance) : many grant not-so-useful feats - which you can now turn into whatever you want. Take Craft Staff and Magical Artisan(Craft Staff) along the way to make it cheaper, then phase them out.
The_Mad_Linguist 02-05-08, 04:37 AM	Psiwar is better than fighter for this.
Fwib 02-05-08, 12:32 PM	Nice, but can't you use armor proficiencies to do better ? You dip Fighter, exchange them, regain them by going into Paladin, Cleric (with domains that grant feats)... and then re-exchange them ? 3+ feats/level... I also recommend the Magical Locations in Complete Scoundrel (for instance) : many grant not-so-useful feats - which you can now turn into whatever you want. Take Craft Staff and Magical Artisan(Craft Staff) along the way to make it cheaper, then phase them out.Would you be willing to give up a level of casting advancement for some feats?
PhaedrusXY 02-05-08, 01:41 PM	Would you be willing to give up a level of casting advancement for some feats?They were using this in gestalt. In gestalt, yes I would, since I can be a full caster on the other side.