Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hamsterlord 08-12-07, 05:40 PM	The Idea: Due to the wording on Fusion, it is possible to raise your manifester level and ability scores to an arbitrarily large level as well as gain almost every class ability. Reference Materials: These are quotes from the SRD that I will be making reference to later on. This is only to prove that this build should work. To get to the actual build, keep scrolling. Fusion: Fusion Psychometabolism Level: Egoist 8 Display: Auditory, material, and visual Manifesting Time: 1 round Range: Touch Target: You and one touched willing creature of your type and your size or smaller Duration: 1 min./level (D) Power Points: 15, XP You and another willing, corporeal, living creature of the same or smaller size fuse into one being. As the manifester, you control the actions of the fused being. However, you can give up this control to the other creature. Once you give up control, you cannot regain it unless the other creature relinquishes it. The fused being has your current hit points plus the other creature’s current hit points. The fused being knows all the powers you and the other creature know, has the sum of your and the other creature’s power points, and knows or has prepared any spells you or the other creature possesses (if any). Likewise, all feats, racial abilities, and class features are pooled (if both creatures have the same ability, the fused being gains it only once). For each of the six ability scores, the fused being’s score is the higher of yours and the other creature’s, and the fused being also has the higher Hit Dice or manifester level—this effectively means the fused being uses the better saving throws, attack bonus, and skill modifiers of either member, and it manifests powers at the higher of the manifester levels that you or the other creature possessed before becoming fused. You decide what equipment is absorbed into the fused being and what equipment remains available for use. These fused items are restored once the power ends. When the power ends, the fused being separates. The other creature appears in an area adjacent to you that you determine. If separation occurs in a cramped space, the other creature is expelled through the Astral Plane, finally coming to rest materially in the nearest empty space and taking 1d6 points of damage for each 10 feet of solid material passed through. Damage taken by the fused being is split evenly between you and the other creature when the power ends. You do not leave the fusion with more hit points than you entered it with, unless you were damaged prior to the fusion and the fused being was subsequently healed. In a like manner, the fused being’s remaining power points are split between you and the other creature (you can leave with more points than you entered with, as long as you don’t exceed the maximum power points for your level and ability score). Ability damage and negative levels are also split between you and the other creature. (If an odd number of negative levels or ability score reductions must be split, you decide whether you or the other creature receives the additional loss.) If a fused being is killed, it separates into its constituent creatures, both of which are also dead. You cannot use fission on a fused being. XP Cost 50 XP. Manifester Level: In the event that a class feature or other special ability provides an adjustment to your manifester level, this adjustment applies... to all effects based on manifester level. Hagunemnon: Hagunemnon (Protean) Size/Type: Large Aberration (Shapechanger) Hit Dice: 44d8+616 (814 hp) Initiative: +17 (+13 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative) Speed: 50 ft. Armor Class: 50 (-1 size, +13 Dex, +28 natural) Base Attack/Grapple: +33/+58 Attack: Slam +54 melee (2d6+21/19-20) Full Attack: 5 slams +54 melee (2d6+21/19-20) Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. Special Attacks: Psionics, destabilize form Special Qualities: Alter shape, DR 10/epic, darkvision 120 ft., immunities, regeneration 50, spell resistance 39 Saves: Fort +40, Ref +39, Will +32 Abilities: Str 53, Dex 37, Con 39, Int 20, Wis 23, Cha 34 Skills: Bluff +59, Diplomacy +53, Disguise +59, Hide +35, Intimidate +47, Jump +29, Listen +55, Move Silently +35, Sense Motive +29, Spot +55 Feats: Alertness, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Endurance, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Multiattack, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (slam) Epic Feats: Blinding Speed, Devastating Critical (slam), Overwhelming Critical (slam) Environment: Any Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 29 Treasure: Standard Alignment: Always chaotic neutral Advancement: 45-59 HD (Large); 60-74 HD (Huge); 75-89 HD (Huge) A hagunemnon’s natural weapons are treated as epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Combat Psionics (Sp) At will —detect thoughts, dimension door, ethereal jaunt, knock, nondetection, plane shift, suggestion. Caster level 20th, save DC 22. Destabilize Form (Su) If a protean hits with two or more slam attacks in the same round, it partly destabilizes its foe’s physical form, dealing an additional 4d6+31 points of damage as well as 2 points of temporary Constitution damage. If the victim is drained to 0 Constitution, its dead body is only so much clear fluid that drains away unless somehow preserved by friends of the victim. Alter Shape (Ex) A protean can assume the shape of any combination of physical nondeific creatures at the same time as a free action. In fact, a protean’s form constantly boils, and it requires a move-equivalent action each round for a protean to maintain a certain shape (even if that shape is a combination of several shapes). Whatever its present form, the protean retains all its own special qualities. Plus, it gains the advantage of up to four extraordinary abilities from the forms it mimics (but not spell-like or supernatural powers). The assumed form can be no smaller than a flea and no larger than 200 feet in its largest dimension (make sure to take into account rules for reach and size modifiers to AC and melee attacks). Incorporeal traits can also be assumed, which counts as a single extraordinary ability. If a hagunemnon assumes a partial form that confers an extraordinary ability already possessed by the creature, only the better of the two abilities is retained. No matter its form, the protean can never make more than five attacks using a full-round action. However, it may substitute a melee attack form for one of its slam attacks, using its own base attack bonus and Strength modifier to damage, but dealing base damage appropriate to the attack type. Proxies: Proxies are divine minions invested with a small portion of the deity’s power. A deity may invest 1 rank of its power (reducing its divine rank accordingly) in a single servant for as long as the deity chooses. The minion must be physically present for the deity to perform the investiture. While so invested, the proxy gains any salient divine abilities held by the patron deity as well as the powers and abilities of a rank 1 demigod. Without the requisite ability scores or divine ranks, the proxy may not be able to use all those powers and abilities. A deity may have more than one proxy, but it must lose 1 divine rank for each proxy it invests. A deity can retrieve a single divine rank as a standard action, and doing so it does not require the physical presence of the proxy. The Build: Wilder 19/Thrallherd 1 (Notable Powers: Dominate. Expansion, Mindlink and Fusion through Expanded Knowledges) The Thrall: Wu-jen 17 (Notable Spells: Body Outside Body) How it Works: Since Fusion states that the new creature HAS the higher manifester level and whose stats ARE the higher of either component creature, this implies that those are the base stats of the creature. This means that any way to increase stats or ML on yourself can then be used on the new creature to increase it again. This build uses Animal Affinity and Wild Surge to do just that. One would Wild Surge a Fusion after casting Animal Affinity to make the resulting creature have the increased stats and ML, rinse and repeat until those are both very large. Of course, you wouldn't want to pay the nasty 50xp every time you cast fusion, so why not spread it amongst your followers, just dominate their mind(so they don't usurp you), relieve control to them, and force them to surge and fusion and relieve control back to you. As you fuse more and more the duration of each fusion will last longer and longer due to your increasing ML. Eventually, you will only have to cast a Fusion every day or so, but no matter the length of time you will always have someone to fuse with as you had a prior fusion that will end before the last one does. Finally you will be a massive hodgepodge of people that you control, but you realize you want a bit more power without having to find more followers or another thrall, just cast Body outside Body and you get a few clones of yourself to fuse with effectively doubling your HP and PP each fusion. The trick can be SRD only if you leave out this part, but it goes alot slower due to you having to spend standard actions to dismiss a single fusion. Note: It takes .245 hours to get a days length. With BOB, a week will take 2.97 hours and 4.3 hours without. Not a bad amount of time considering from then on you'll only need to manifest fusion once per duration to keep it up. Now you are complete, you don't worry about fusions for years on end, you go around dominating other character's minds(DC: Big) to get them to fuse with you and steal their feats, class abilities, etc... Added 8/13/07: Almost Any Ability on a Creature: If you notice the Hagunemnon has a fun ability that allows it to gain four extraordinary abilities of any combination of creatures (between fine and 200ft), so just metamorphosis into a Athach and fusion with a Hagunemnon. You get to keep all your abilities besides ex. abilities based on race (but you can just get those back), and now you can use Body Outside Body to have your clones emulate four ex. abilities you don't have and then fusion. To get any su. or sp. ability, Polymorph the creature that has said ability into an abberation and fuse. Just remember to not buff up physical stats before changing or else you are wasting pp. Limitless Size: The text on fusion makes no reference to the size of the resultant creature, however as the two creatures fuse into one that means that, barring mass-removing magic being inherent to the power, the creatures should be the same size as the larger of the two components. So to gain as large of a size as you wish just manifest Expansion before fusing and eventually you stop getting size increases but keep doubling in size. Added 8/14/07 Limitless Divinity: If you wish to stay SRD only, you'll need to grab a piece of a god or a god's proxy (hair, fingernail, etc...). Then, cast Simulacrum and create your very own god under your control, if the complete saga is used you can use the Dweomerkeeper's supernatural spell to cast Simulacrum without the need for the components. Now you make the simulacrum turn you into its divine proxy, and get 1 divine rank. For SRD only, dominate others to make simulacrums of you, otherwise just cast Body Outside Body. Either way, you have clones of yourself, invest your divine rank in a random squirrel making it your proxy, then a clone makes you its proxy, rinse and repeat. Finally, you will have as many squirrel proxies as you want divine ranks then just recall all of your proxys' divine ranks and now you have ultimate divine power.
Think0028 08-16-07, 05:20 PM	... Well then. Wow. Congratulations.
Callix 08-16-07, 08:47 PM	Pun-Pun lives on. FR or no FR, there will be infinite power in 4ed. Go get 'em, Hamsterlord!
Tleilaxu_Ghola 08-17-07, 02:32 PM	This is pretty similar to the Ghola character mechanic, which combines an infinite action loop with infinite power points, and then fuses with an infinite number and variety of ice-assassins, to acquire all abilities in the game. Of course that mechanic alone did not suffice to grant infinite stats or ML. So this trick has some new ideas. On the subject of infinite ML, however, I don't really quite understand how you're constantly increasing ML. If you overchannel or wildsurge your ML for the casting of Fusion, the ML increase only applies for the Fusion. Your ML, once fused, returns to its original value. Also, if you enter fusion with animal affinity active, the fused form gains the highest ability scores for each of the 6 abilities, but would also gain an enhancement bonus to those abilities, from Animal Affinity. Its not as if the enhancement bonus is secretly absorbed into the fusion. So future manifestations of animal affinity, or any enhancement bonus to ability scores, would not stack. The same logic applies to expansion tricks. Fusion has no text which stipulates that all magic effects are supressed upon entering fusion. So these effects must still be active on the fused being. Since the same power does not stack with itself, multiple expansions will do nothing. Basically, I don't think any of this works, except the combination of BoB with Fusion -- and that offers very little advantage unless mixed with Chameleon, to pick up all the feats in the game.
Hamsterlord 08-17-07, 03:51 PM	This is pretty similar to the Ghola character mechanic, which combines an infinite action loop with infinite power points, and then fuses with an infinite number and variety of ice-assassins, to acquire all abilities in the game. Of course that mechanic alone did not suffice to grant infinite stats or ML. So this trick has some new ideas. I actually thought of and posted this trick when LoP put out his fourth dirty trick, however nobody noticed it and I only recently reposted it. Sorry, to seem as if I am stepping on your build's toes. On the subject of infinite ML, however, I don't really quite understand how you're constantly increasing ML. If you overchannel or wildsurge your ML for the casting of Fusion, the ML increase only applies for the Fusion. Your ML, once fused, returns to its original value. While your ML decreases, the fusion creates a new creature that manifests at the higher level of the two component creatures before the fusion. That creature also has the wild surge ability and can use it in another fusion. Checking the quote I provided for ML from the SRD, increases to ML apply to all effects based on manifester level for that power, and that should include referencing what the new creatures ML should be set at. Also, if you enter fusion with animal affinity active, the fused form gains the highest ability scores for each of the 6 abilities, but would also gain an enhancement bonus to those abilities, from Animal Affinity. Its not as if the enhancement bonus is secretly absorbed into the fusion. So future manifestations of animal affinity, or any enhancement bonus to ability scores, would not stack. The same logic applies to expansion tricks. Fusion has no text which stipulates that all magic effects are supressed upon entering fusion. So these effects must still be active on the fused being. Since the same power does not stack with itself, multiple expansions will do nothing. 1. The power creates a new creature based on the abilities and stats of the constituents. While this isn't how one would expect a fusion to work, it is how it was written. Since it is a new creature spells can be cast on it again without stacking coming into play. Your logic is believing that any spells/powers cast upon the component creatures gets passed down to the fused creature which would happen, if fusion was written logically. 2. Ability scores are defined by the glossary in the back of my 3.0 PHB (not a great source, I know, but it's the only relevant info I could find) as the "numeric rating of one of the six character abilities" numeric being the key word. Unless specifically specified by other rules(namely the rules for adding bonuses), the stats of a creature are treated as a number. And as written, fusion is creating a new creature that has each ability score set to the higher of the two components.
awaken_D_M_golem 08-17-07, 04:45 PM	Good Stuff. And congradulations to Think0028 for his "vanilla" reaction. So - the poster formerly known as Trollman, now going by the mystical symbol of "K" proposed on the Pazuzu ... erhm, Pun-Pun thread to use UMD to do those tricks sooner. Of course, he was ignored. It stands to reason that a high Psicraft DC or U.P.D. DC might do this sooner that level 20.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 08-17-07, 07:12 PM	I actually thought of and posted this trick when LoP put out his fourth dirty trick, however nobody noticed it and I only recently reposted it. Sorry, to seem as if I am stepping on your build's toes. Eh, I was just noting the abuse of fusion in both cases. While your ML decreases, the fusion creates a new creature that manifests at the higher level of the two component creatures before the fusion. That creature also has the wild surge ability and can use it in another fusion. Checking the quote I provided for ML from the SRD, increases to ML apply to all effects based on manifester level for that power, and that should include referencing what the new creatures ML should be set at. Interesting. At present, I don't have a decent rebuttal for this logic aside from the gut feeling that it is wrong. 1. The power creates a new creature based on the abilities and stats of the constituents. While this isn't how one would expect a fusion to work, it is how it was written. Since it is a new creature spells can be cast on it again without stacking coming into play. Your logic is believing that any spells/powers cast upon the component creatures gets passed down to the fused creature which would happen, if fusion was written logically. My logic is simply that the power description never states that power effects are dispelled or supressed. If they are not supressed or somehow made irrelevant, then they persist. If they persist, stacking rules come into play, whether this is a new creature or not. 2. Ability scores are defined by the glossary in the back of my 3.0 PHB (not a great source, I know, but it's the only relevant info I could find) as the "numeric rating of one of the six character abilities" numeric being the key word. Unless specifically specified by other rules(namely the rules for adding bonuses), the stats of a creature are treated as a number. And as written, fusion is creating a new creature that has each ability score set to the higher of the two components. You are, then, of the opinion that two fused humans, one with a base intelligence of 17 (and an enhancement of +6 for a total of 23) and an identical human being results in 23 intelligence +6 enhancement = 29 total, since the enhancement effect persists, but the fusion reflects only the total score. I can buy that, on a twisted abuse of the RAW level. I think it may be a functional trick -- you simply need to better address the issue of what exactly happens to active magical effects. Particularly effects that do not render the others irrelevent (like multiple fusions do).
Tempest Stormwind 08-17-07, 09:31 PM	As I noted in the CO News writeup of this, it's really the word "has" that does it. Taken literally, it means this happens. Taken colloquially, this doesn't work. However, we work literally here. Interestingly, I know the original author of that power posts here. Before it showed up in the XPH, Fusion appeared in the 3.0 Mind's Eye article Mastering More Powers Of The Mind, which was NOT written by Mark and Scott (like most of the Minds Eye articles were), but was instead written by board member Razz, whom some of you may know from other forums (most notably Future Releases). If you really want the RAI, just ask him; can't get intent more clearly than that of the original author.
Hamsterlord 08-18-07, 12:52 AM	Interesting. At present, I don't have a decent rebuttal for this logic aside from the gut feeling that it is wrong. The Power’s Result Once you know which creatures (or objects or areas) are affected, and whether those creatures have made successful saving throws (if any were allowed), you can apply whatever results a power entails. Manifestation starts before the results, in this case the fusion, and fusion looks at your ML before fusing which would be your normal level plus six. I agree that it feels wrong, but it's apparently how they designed the power. I think that the whole creating a new creature was to stop some sort of abuse, otherwise why would they make it work that way? Trouble is, I can't think of any abuse that could happen if they reworded it to just give you the abilities of the other creature. My logic is simply that the power description never states that power effects are dispelled or supressed. If they are not supressed or somehow made irrelevant, then they persist. If they persist, stacking rules come into play, whether this is a new creature or not. They aren't dispelled nor suppressed and are only sort of made irrelevant. The thing is the spells persist yet they are still targeting an old creature. If the fusion were to end, the spell/power would still be active on the creature it was cast upon. Fusion specifically details what happens when it is manifested, creation of a creature with certain stats, and what happens when the duration ends, dissolution of said creature, what happens in between to the component creatures is next to irrelevant. This is the same reasoning behind the Trinity build, metamorphosis is cast then used with fusion, then it can be dispelled without affecting the fusioned creature in any way because it is already created. You are, then, of the opinion that two fused humans, one with a base intelligence of 17 (and an enhancement of +6 for a total of 23) and an identical human being results in 23 intelligence +6 enhancement = 29 total, since the enhancement effect persists, but the fusion reflects only the total score. I can buy that, on a twisted abuse of the RAW level. It depends on where the enhancements come from. If it comes from a spell, then no, the fusion would result in a 23 intelligence monster as the enhancement would be still applying to the original creature and not the new one created. You would have to cast the spell again to get another boost. However, if the +6 bonus comes from an item, then when the creature is created it gets a Int score of 23, then the manifester can choose to not let the item get fused into the form and therefore the creature is now wearing the item and gets the bonus giving it a final score of 29(23 base + 6 enhancement). So - the poster formerly known as Trollman, now going by the mystical symbol of "K" proposed on the Pazuzu ... erhm, Pun-Pun thread to use UMD to do those tricks sooner. Of course, he was ignored. It stands to reason that a high Psicraft DC or U.P.D. DC might do this sooner that level 20. While yes, this can be done, you need about the same amount of money as a 20th level character to get enough power stones to cast fusion enough times. However, if you get a power stone with psionic dominate that has a high enough DC you could find a wilder who knows fusion and just dominate him.
Hamsterlord 08-21-07, 08:51 PM	Firstly, sorry for the double post. So I messaged Razz to see about how he intended Fusion to work. On the D20 Theoretical Optimization board I posted what I believed to be an abuse of the psionic power Fusion. There ensued a debate over how the power actually worked. Tempest Stormwind pointed you out as the original writer behind Fusion, and what better source to ask than the creator? I know that it's been rewritten in 3.5 but I would be much obliged if you wouldn't mind answering a few questions about how you actually wanted the power to work. My original intent for the psionic power was actually inspired by the anime, DragonBallZ. I wanted a psionic power to duplicate the effects of the "fusion" ability the characters Goku and Vegeta and Trunks and Goten perform. Two melded together as one, possessing the best traits of both. The fused entity knows all the psionic powers you and the constituent creature know, possesses the sum of both your and the constituent creature's psionic power points, and knows/has prepared any spells you or the constituent creature possessed (if any). Likewise, all feats, racial abilities, and other class abilities are pooled (if both creatures have the same ability, the fused creature gains it only once). 1.) Racial abilities include speed and size, but would that also include any bonuses to speed and/or size working on a constituent creature at the time? I think I see what you mean. Do you mean, say, two creatures fuse and one has Enlarge Person casted on himself? I would rule to first fuse the two together, then add in all the effects of magic, powers, etc. affecting either creature. For example, if one had Enlarge Person on and the other had on, say, Bull's Strength, figure out what the base fused entity has then add in all the spell effects. I would also rule that creature type won't matter, for example, if a spell that only works on dragonblood creatures was on one creature, but the other creature it fused with doesn't have dragonblood, don't worry. The effect remains. Since the two are fused, it would have the dragonblood subtype. The fused being possesses the best ability score of either you or the constituent creature, and the best character level, HD, or manifester level (these values are not doubled, but instead overlap) 2a.) Does this set the creature's base stat to what the higher score is or is the new creature actively using the ability score including any bonuses? 2b.) Same question, but for Manifester Level. I would say it sets the base stat, at least that's my original intent of the power. If one had Strength of 30 and the other Strength of 15, use the 30 for all cases where it's needed: feats, save DCs relying on Strength, attack and damage bonus, Strength skills, etc. 3.) Fusion clearly dictates what happens at the beginning(creation of a creature) and end(dissolution of the creature). But what if an effect ends on one of the constituent creatures while fused, due to the ending of a Feat Leech or something? Basically, since the creature is created with certain abilities, does it lose certain abilities if one of its constituent creature does? Thanks in advance. Yes, the effects should end on the new creature if an effect wears off on one or the other creature. If one of the creatures had on haste and then fused, the new fused being would be hasted until it wore off, for example. So basically RAI, this shouldn't work(Like most fun tricks). Although the answers to question 1 and question 2 are a bit at odds.
Tempest Stormwind 08-22-07, 03:54 AM	They aren't at odds: 1: (BaseA+BaseB) = BaseC. EffectsA+EffectsB on C. 2: BaseA+BaseB = Base C. [Omits discussion on effects] Compare to the foundation of this trick, which is: (BaseA+EffectsA + BaseB+EffectsB) = BaseC So, yeah, RAI, no go, RAW, mini-Pun-Pun.
Hamsterlord 08-22-07, 10:36 AM	They aren't at odds: 1: (BaseA+BaseB) = BaseC. EffectsA+EffectsB on C. 2: BaseA+BaseB = Base C. [Omits discussion on effects] Compare to the foundation of this trick, which is: (BaseA+EffectsA + BaseB+EffectsB) = BaseC So, yeah, RAI, no go, RAW, mini-Pun-Pun. Ah, I read the answer to the second question as an affirmative to setting the creature's base stat to the higher stat including effects. But I see what you're saying and that makes a bit more sense in context.
awaken_D_M_golem 08-22-07, 05:11 PM	... Dragon Ball Z ... Voltron is to 1st Edition Psionics as Transformers is to 2nd Edition Psionics as DBZ(gt) is to 3.5-ith Edition Psionics. Be afraid.
Tempest Stormwind 08-22-07, 10:28 PM	...I... fail to see the analogy. Unless you're talking about release times. Which has no impact on release *content*. Also, Fusion was originally written for 3e psionics, not 3.5. It was just incorporated into the XPH when the revision came.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 08-22-07, 10:55 PM	...I... fail Stop there; smile and nod.
awaken_D_M_golem 08-28-07, 06:49 PM	Voltron is to 1st Edition Psionics as Transformers is to 2nd Edition Psionics as DBZ(gt) is to 3.5-ith Edition Psionics ... as "Pokemon + High School Musical" are to 4th Edition (Psionics t.b.a.) :cheer:
Tempest Stormwind 08-28-07, 07:49 PM	...Yeah, that didn't help either (http://pics.livejournal.com/twoflower/pic/0002ppdt). Stop there; smile and nod. ...That's probably a good idea.
awaken_D_M_golem 08-31-07, 03:29 PM	A Black comic on BET's Comic View told this joke: "I'd like some more peanuts, please :rolleyes: " And the audience laughed. The same comic told the same joke on Comedy Central. And some of the audience laughed. Some of them didn't get it. Some of them checked their ideological handbook for whether they could laugh at it. So the comic removed the mic from the mic stand, and picked up the stand, moving his hand to the one end, just like holding a pointing stick to a blackboard, and "diagrammed" the joke: points "I'd" , move points "like" , move points "peanuts" , ... , {says} "the modifier is" More of the audience laughed. A few of them still checked their ideological handbook ... a few fewer then laughed a little. :D