Glaser Safety Slugs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Glaser Safety Slugs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RazielK
08-31-07, 09:10 PM These are a real type of ammunition that has shot suspended in liquid teflon. I was wondering how one would stat these types of rounds.

You can find more info about these slugs on Wikipedia, wasn't sur eif I could post it here.
waiwode
09-01-07, 04:11 PM A "Safety Slug" is a frangible (breaks apart, doesn't richochet, go through cover, the target person, etc) round designed to minimize civilian casualties.

How to make them in real life? You'd need a lab. How to make them in game terms? Pretty easy.
For d20 Modern:
1. Multiply the cost by x12 to x20 depending on availability.
2. Subtract 1 from the damage by calibre.
3. Subtract 1 additional point of penalty for each range category. (ie -3 instead of -2)
4. Increase the effectiveness of any armour worn by the target by +2.
5. Ignore any secondary effects house rules you might have (for instance, if you have house rules that have 7.62mm bullets punching through targets and harming people behind them? Don't use them).

Doug.
RazielK
09-01-07, 11:09 PM Thus making no point of using the weapon?

Have you read what the Glaser does in specific?
The Colonel
09-02-07, 11:49 AM D20 modern doesn't really cover this sort of thing too well as it lacks rules (IIRC) for blowthrough and treats all forms of lethal damage the same ... as a suggestion, double the target's armour bonus, but also double the damage rolled keeping the maximum the same so, say a target is hit by a 9mm Glaser doing 2d6 damage, the range of possible damage is 2-12.
If the damage roll is (say 3+1) 4 then that doubles to 8.
If the damage roll is (say 6+2) 8 then that doubles, in theory, to 16, but the round only has 12 HP worth of energy to transfer.
EXC - on a critical, don't max at 12 before multiplying - these things make one hell of a mess.

Agree with the earlier poster on price (and you may need to dial the legality up as well) and as well as the note on houserules, these bullets have no effect on anything with hardness.
Don't worry about the range or damage reduction stuff as I'm not convinced that it applies.
RazielK
09-04-07, 03:13 AM That is a pretty good idea.

Thanks.
waiwode
09-04-07, 06:42 PM Glaser Safety Slugs are remarked on as being markedly less lethal that normal metal-jacketed rounds.

Just because they break apart inside the target doesn't make them more damaging. It just makes them harder for doctors to clean up.

From the Wiki entry:
"Use of these cartridges in hand guns for defense/combat situations is controversial because some argue that a hand gun simply does not have the barrel length or powder capacity to accelerate the super light projectile to the point that it can reliably produce wounds deep enough to incapacitate a person."

Only the Company page talks about "Excellent stopping power" ... and of course it would, they're trying to sell them.
The Colonel
09-05-07, 04:14 AM Glaser Safety Slugs are remarked on as being markedly less lethal that normal metal-jacketed rounds.

Just because they break apart inside the target doesn't make them more damaging. It just makes them harder for doctors to clean up.

Only the Company page talks about "Excellent stopping power" ... and of course it would, they're trying to sell them.

I was given to understand that frangible rounds generally tend to quite good at transferring energy to the target - possibly not in terms of hydrostatic shock (which some people don't beleive in anyway), but in terms of big, ugly soft tissue injuries they tend to score quite highly.
RazielK
09-05-07, 02:37 PM There have been 90 shot at people so far, all were one-shot stops, 89 were lethal.

I think that says something.
waiwode
09-05-07, 03:45 PM Here's some excerpts from EJ Sanow's article from Combat Handguns article (April '89) (http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/glaser_ss.html)taken from various police reports that certainly doesn't support your 89/90 stat.

Perhaps I'm off-base with my damage penalty by calibre. Perhaps even a small bonus (+1, not per die) might be in order. However Glaser Safety Slugs aren't "super bullets." They're very difficult to produce (hence the high cost) bullets with a specific role.

In the end, it's your game, do whatever you want. However despite conflicting reports, I'd urge you not to introduce "super bullets."

Doug.
RazielK
09-05-07, 10:23 PM Here's some excerpts from EJ Sanow's article from Combat Handguns article (April '89) (http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/glaser_ss.html)taken from various police reports that certainly doesn't support your 89/90 stat.

It was a stat I had heard a while ago, thus it might not be accurate.
Johannixx
09-05-07, 11:58 PM Glasers (and MagSafes, a similar competitor) are pretty sub-par when it comes to self-defense ammo. They have some limited uses, such as in airplanes where overpenetration is a very high-priority problem, but as a generic self-defense load they leave much to be desired.

They tend to leave very nasty, but shallow, wounds. They often won't penetrate far enough to cause an immediately lethal injury. They may cause death eventually, but a good JHP or FMJ will dig deeper and have a better chance of perforating the central nervous system, major blood vessel, or blood-suffused organ and thus creating a faster stop.

Also, Glasers are notoriously less accurate than conventional bullets.

So, I'd say -1 damage, -2 penalty to hit against armored foes (light bullets don't send as much momentum through body armor they fail to penetrate as heavy bullets), and -10' range increment. Also, add 2 or 3 to the purchase DC, as they are REALLY stupid expensive.

It's a damn shame, because the parent company (Cor-Bon) makes some hellishly effective defensive loads. I carry their 185-gr DPX rounds in my 1911. That's a solid copper hollowpoint that expands readily and penetrates like you wouldn't believe. I've shot the .45s through bowling pins, and if you've ever shot bowling pins, you know how bullet-resistant they are. DPX rounds are also expensive, yet still light-years cheaper than Glasers.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RazielK 08-31-07, 09:10 PM	These are a real type of ammunition that has shot suspended in liquid teflon. I was wondering how one would stat these types of rounds. You can find more info about these slugs on Wikipedia, wasn't sur eif I could post it here.
waiwode 09-01-07, 04:11 PM	A "Safety Slug" is a frangible (breaks apart, doesn't richochet, go through cover, the target person, etc) round designed to minimize civilian casualties. How to make them in real life? You'd need a lab. How to make them in game terms? Pretty easy. For d20 Modern: 1. Multiply the cost by x12 to x20 depending on availability. 2. Subtract 1 from the damage by calibre. 3. Subtract 1 additional point of penalty for each range category. (ie -3 instead of -2) 4. Increase the effectiveness of any armour worn by the target by +2. 5. Ignore any secondary effects house rules you might have (for instance, if you have house rules that have 7.62mm bullets punching through targets and harming people behind them? Don't use them). Doug.
RazielK 09-01-07, 11:09 PM	Thus making no point of using the weapon? Have you read what the Glaser does in specific?
The Colonel 09-02-07, 11:49 AM	D20 modern doesn't really cover this sort of thing too well as it lacks rules (IIRC) for blowthrough and treats all forms of lethal damage the same ... as a suggestion, double the target's armour bonus, but also double the damage rolled keeping the maximum the same so, say a target is hit by a 9mm Glaser doing 2d6 damage, the range of possible damage is 2-12. If the damage roll is (say 3+1) 4 then that doubles to 8. If the damage roll is (say 6+2) 8 then that doubles, in theory, to 16, but the round only has 12 HP worth of energy to transfer. EXC - on a critical, don't max at 12 before multiplying - these things make one hell of a mess. Agree with the earlier poster on price (and you may need to dial the legality up as well) and as well as the note on houserules, these bullets have no effect on anything with hardness. Don't worry about the range or damage reduction stuff as I'm not convinced that it applies.
RazielK 09-04-07, 03:13 AM	That is a pretty good idea. Thanks.
waiwode 09-04-07, 06:42 PM	Glaser Safety Slugs are remarked on as being markedly less lethal that normal metal-jacketed rounds. Just because they break apart inside the target doesn't make them more damaging. It just makes them harder for doctors to clean up. From the Wiki entry: "Use of these cartridges in hand guns for defense/combat situations is controversial because some argue that a hand gun simply does not have the barrel length or powder capacity to accelerate the super light projectile to the point that it can reliably produce wounds deep enough to incapacitate a person." Only the Company page talks about "Excellent stopping power" ... and of course it would, they're trying to sell them.
The Colonel 09-05-07, 04:14 AM	Glaser Safety Slugs are remarked on as being markedly less lethal that normal metal-jacketed rounds. Just because they break apart inside the target doesn't make them more damaging. It just makes them harder for doctors to clean up. Only the Company page talks about "Excellent stopping power" ... and of course it would, they're trying to sell them. I was given to understand that frangible rounds generally tend to quite good at transferring energy to the target - possibly not in terms of hydrostatic shock (which some people don't beleive in anyway), but in terms of big, ugly soft tissue injuries they tend to score quite highly.
RazielK 09-05-07, 02:37 PM	There have been 90 shot at people so far, all were one-shot stops, 89 were lethal. I think that says something.
waiwode 09-05-07, 03:45 PM	Here's some excerpts from EJ Sanow's article from Combat Handguns article (April '89) (http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/glaser_ss.html)taken from various police reports that certainly doesn't support your 89/90 stat. Perhaps I'm off-base with my damage penalty by calibre. Perhaps even a small bonus (+1, not per die) might be in order. However Glaser Safety Slugs aren't "super bullets." They're very difficult to produce (hence the high cost) bullets with a specific role. In the end, it's your game, do whatever you want. However despite conflicting reports, I'd urge you not to introduce "super bullets." Doug.
RazielK 09-05-07, 10:23 PM	Here's some excerpts from EJ Sanow's article from Combat Handguns article (April '89) (http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/glaser_ss.html)taken from various police reports that certainly doesn't support your 89/90 stat. It was a stat I had heard a while ago, thus it might not be accurate.
Johannixx 09-05-07, 11:58 PM	Glasers (and MagSafes, a similar competitor) are pretty sub-par when it comes to self-defense ammo. They have some limited uses, such as in airplanes where overpenetration is a very high-priority problem, but as a generic self-defense load they leave much to be desired. They tend to leave very nasty, but shallow, wounds. They often won't penetrate far enough to cause an immediately lethal injury. They may cause death eventually, but a good JHP or FMJ will dig deeper and have a better chance of perforating the central nervous system, major blood vessel, or blood-suffused organ and thus creating a faster stop. Also, Glasers are notoriously less accurate than conventional bullets. So, I'd say -1 damage, -2 penalty to hit against armored foes (light bullets don't send as much momentum through body armor they fail to penetrate as heavy bullets), and -10' range increment. Also, add 2 or 3 to the purchase DC, as they are REALLY stupid expensive. It's a damn shame, because the parent company (Cor-Bon) makes some hellishly effective defensive loads. I carry their 185-gr DPX rounds in my 1911. That's a solid copper hollowpoint that expands readily and penetrates like you wouldn't believe. I've shot the .45s through bowling pins, and if you've ever shot bowling pins, you know how bullet-resistant they are. DPX rounds are also expensive, yet still light-years cheaper than Glasers.