heighten spell...for free? (sort of) [Archive] - Wizards Community

heighten spell...for free? (sort of) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
cog_n_taz
07-04-07, 03:21 AM First of all, this is my first post here, and I'm no optimization wizard, so I'm probably wrong. Nevertheless, please bear with me.

Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but last I checked, there's no particular order that metamagic feats are applied in. As such, it should be possible to heighten a spell to the spell slot it's already metamagic'd up to. Maybe it would help if I provided an example...

Fireball, 3rd level spell. Maximized fireball, 6th level spell. So... get a maximized fireball, heighten it to 6th level. This means that it's still taking a 6th level spell slot, but has 6th level spell DC and the like.

What say you, TO boards?
andinel
07-04-07, 04:36 AM A maximized fireball already takes a 6th level spell slot, so the DC adjusts accordingly. You don't need to involve Heighten Spell to get the DC increase.
cog_n_taz
07-04-07, 05:07 AM Eh? I thought it didn't... so why use heighten spell (except fo the sake of the killer gnome build), when you can metamagic it up to that level, and get some extra effects?
_V_
07-04-07, 06:03 AM A maximized fireball already takes a 6th level spell slot, so the DC adjusts accordingly. You don't need to involve Heighten Spell to get the DC increase.
I disagree.

A spell modified with metamagic functions at its normal spell level, even though it requires a spell slot of higher level than normal.

Using our previous example of a charm person spell placed into 3rd-level spell slot because of metamagic, the spell functions as a 1st-level spell in all respects. If a wizard with an Intelligence score of 11 casts the spell, the saving throw DC is 11 (10 + 1 [spell level] + 0 [Intelligence modifier]). The wizard can cast the modified spell even though his Intelligence score is only 11, which is sufficient for a 1st-level spell but not for a 3rd-level spell. All other variables or characteristics that depend on the example spell's level, such as its ability to penetrate a minor globe of invulnerability effect, function at the spell's original level (1st).

The Heighten Spell feat is an exception to the foregoing. When increasing a spell with the Heighten Spell feat, the spell functions at its increased level. For example a charm person spell heightened to 3rd level has a base save DC of 13, requires a relevant ability score of at least 13, and functions as a 3rd-level spell in all other respects.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050503a
cog_n_taz
07-04-07, 06:06 AM Thank'ee. So this, moderately broken as it is, works? (Not that I intend to use it, mind you, hence my choosing the TO boards for this). Also, is it as broken as I think it is, or is it still mild?

Additionally, would you mind checking on the forgewraith thread on this forum? I'm confident that that works, but I would like to know what people think of it.
Gideon_Gideonson
07-04-07, 09:06 AM You know what? By RAW, you're right.

HEIGHTEN SPELL [METAMAGIC]
Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

In fact...according to that ruling, I think you could Persist, Maximize, Twin, Chain, Empower, Still, Silent, Quicken a spell...say, Magic Missile, and then Heighten it to 2nd level...which, with the way the feat's worded, would make it a 2nd level spell. But that may also be a mistake from me typing this after getting no sleep last night.
cog_n_taz
07-04-07, 09:10 AM Glad I'm right, but thankfully, you can't quite do that. The feat's name is heighten spell, you can't lower the spell level with it. Say, take that same maximized fireball, a 6th level spell. You can heighten it to level 6, but you can't, say, heighten it to level 2, in much the same way that you can't heighten a plain old meteor swarm to cantrip level.
Phalo
07-04-07, 11:36 AM I think i may be reading this wrong form what you guys are. but sounds to me like you want to maximize a fireball then heighten it and use a lower level spell slot that 6th.

With how I read the heighten spell feat only increases spell level.
Example you heighten a fireball to 6th level (it takes up a 6th level spell slot) Then you maximize it takes a 9th level slot.

This fireball would do

60 damage
have a DC for saving throw of 16+your modifier
and is capable of passing through a globe of Invulnerability(since it is a sixth level spell.
cog_n_taz
07-04-07, 06:15 PM Nope, ya have it wrong. There's no order in which to apply metamagic, so you can maximize it to 6th level, and the heighten it to 6th level for free.
NineInchNall
07-05-07, 01:50 AM Order matters, else you either end up with mathematical race conditions.

As order matters, we summarily reject the initial premise.
cog_n_taz
07-05-07, 01:58 AM Alright, more-intellectual-than-thou is my second language, but basically, you're saying that things stop making sense if no order is enforced, so order should be enforced, and thus this doesn't work?

Sorry, but the TO boards aren't about making sense, I thought that was established. :P

Additionally, it seems I was the sleep deprived one back there. Gideon appears to be right, so unless someone comes up with a counter argument, well... ladies and gentlemen, I believe I and gideon have discovered (or rediscovered, knowing these boards)......infinite free metamagic. To cheapen it even further, heighten it by one level, with arcane thesis, to keep the spell at the original level.
Djief
07-05-07, 02:29 AM Anyhow it's written somewhere that you can apply metamagic feats in any order you wish. Just don't have the reference =S
cog_n_taz
07-05-07, 03:55 AM woohoo! Finally, my own little meaningful contribution...which has likely being discovered by LoP, tempest, radicaltaoist, or ghola some time ago:P . Knowing this community, by the way, I don't think anyone will listen without a reference, not that I doubt you, thanks anyway though.

And now, if this really does work, I'm sure there's some TO build that can make use of it. Perhaps a wizard/incantatrix or whatever gives the most metamagic feats, plus arcane thesis for your favorite level 9 spell. hang on, didn't practical/easy metamagic reduce metamagic costs by one? If so, arcane thesis is unnecessary. Now, combine this with TG's infinite spells per day build, and... quick, somebody slap me! :P
Callix
07-05-07, 04:40 AM Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell
A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can’t apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell.

No mention of order. Can someone trump this?

If no order is assigned by the rules and order is necessary, then order must be at the doer's discretion, no?
cog_n_taz
07-05-07, 04:58 AM Yup, that's what I figured. however, it says that changes in level are cumulative. We all know this, but since it's worded like this, does that mean heighten spell is applied after? I.E. heightening a maximized fireball by one level will produce a 7th level spell slot rather than a 4th? If so, than that's my theory blown out of the water. If not, I've made a mildly groundbreaking discovery, which actually got put on the TO boards and survived for 24 hours, in which case my life is now complete:D .
psly4mne
07-06-07, 04:14 PM I'm pretty sure that the quote _V_ posted invalidates this. I do remember discussing this before - we talked about it in my group, but I don't think it was brought up on the boards. Anyway, I'm going to say it doesn't work.
cog_n_taz
07-06-07, 06:33 PM Okay, please dumb it down for the idiot. I entirely fail to see how that quote invalidates it, could you please explain? Thanks.
psly4mne
07-06-07, 08:31 PM Actually, I meant the quote Callix posted - "Changes to its level are cumulative".
Heighten spell does not say that it takes up a spell slot equal to its effective level; it says that it is "as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level". This strongly suggests that Heighten does not override the slot adjustment of other metamagic feats.
Alpha_Moose
07-06-07, 09:20 PM Well this is confusing now. If I Empower a Fireball to 5th level, then Heighten it to 7th, does it act as only a 5th level spell for save DCs?
cog_n_taz
07-06-07, 09:24 PM 7th, A_M. And psy, thanks for clearing that up. I guess as soon as you debunk my other trick, I can leave this board to the experts as nature intended, sorry 'bout the annoyance.
Callix
07-06-07, 10:34 PM A_M: If you empower a Fireball and heighten it to 7th level, it consumes a 9th level slot (assuming Heighten is cumulative). If you heighten it 2 levels and use a 7th level slot, saves are as a 5th level spell.

Of course, if Cog were right, then the Heighten to 5th would be free, and use a 5th level slot. Still "effective spell level" in Heighten is pretty good to shut it out.
HotSake
07-07-07, 01:56 PM I talked about this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12886823&postcount=247) (in the context of Sanctum Spell) in the Miracle at 6th thread. I was trying to show how the reading of Sanctum Spell being used as an argument against the trick also implied that Sanctum Spell made all metamagics free. I later extended it to show that, if you want to get silly, only the slot adjustment of the last metamagic applied counts. Of course, I was only trying a weak reduction ad absurdum.

Interesting to see it pop up again.
ishihara
07-07-07, 05:47 PM A_M: If you empower a Fireball and heighten it to 7th level...

that pretty much sums it up, doesn't it. if you heighten it to 7th level it's going to consume a 7th level spellslot, cause it will be a 7th level spell!
heighten spell, contrary to every other metamagic feat, specifically states that it alters the spells actual level and, as we all know, every other metamagic feat simply uses a higher spellslot. so technically an empowered fireball is still a 3rd level spell and heightening it up to 5th level should be possible without any additional cost in spellslots.
HotSake
07-08-07, 03:07 AM A lot of people around here interpret Heighten as having no slot adjustment, and only being useful when other slot adjusting metamagics are applied to the spell. Essentially, you slap on Heighten to get the spell's actual level up to the slot it's using, but it does nothing on its own.
cog_n_taz
07-08-07, 04:55 AM Ah, so I'm not alone, than? That's reassuring...
PhaedrusXY
07-08-07, 05:45 PM There was a horrendously long and offensive thread about this quite some time ago on the Feats forum (I think). The consensus is that it doesn't work, because changes to slot used are cumulative. Wizards has also stated that you don't get to Heighten "for free".

Personally, I like it and might allow it as a house rule. I think just having the DCs automatically scale with all metamagic feats, and getting rid of Heighten, is a better one, though.
cog_n_taz
07-08-07, 09:18 PM Okay, thanks for clearing it up once again, I'm really sorry if this thread was offensive in any way.
PhaedrusXY
07-11-07, 01:56 AM Okay, thanks for clearing it up once again, I'm really sorry if this thread was offensive in any way.No, it wasn't at all. The old thread had people getting quite nasty at each other, though.
Think0028
07-12-07, 01:23 AM Okay, thanks for clearing it up once again, I'm really sorry if this thread was offensive in any way.

As Phaedrus said. This sort of thing happens occasionally, and no harm, no foul. Discussions help keep the brain sharp, and noticing something like that in the first place is a good sign.
sparkster4242
07-26-07, 11:45 PM cog:
i would agree.

its true, no consensus was really reached over in the long thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=316552).

what it boils down to is, consult your DM.
if you are the DM, then dont consult yourself - you might get an answer, and that would be a bad sign :p
Steidas
07-27-07, 01:57 AM A lot of people around here interpret Heighten as having no slot adjustment, and only being useful when other slot adjusting metamagics are applied to the spell. Essentially, you slap on Heighten to get the spell's actual level up to the slot it's using, but it does nothing on its own.
That's why RAW sucks, because all feats have a MEANING. Heighten just wanted to increase DCs. Read my sig, I didn't write it.
cog_n_taz
07-28-07, 02:21 AM Eh? Sorry, didn't get that whole post, could you be a little clearer on what you mean?

Also, thanks sparkster, but I myself am not sure at all by now. If anything, I'm inclined to think that it, essentially, only works if you take an "I really wish this worked" interpretation of the rules. I.E. the only way you could interpret it as rules legal is if you really want to.

And...ask a DM? Come on, free heighten spell/free metamagic all around? No way will they allow that, but yeah, at the discretion of the DM, who will give you a very sound no, and possibly a miscellaneous blunt object to the head, if you dare suggest it.
snizor
07-28-07, 01:36 PM A lot of people around here interpret Heighten as having no slot adjustment, and only being useful when other slot adjusting metamagics are applied to the spell. Essentially, you slap on Heighten to get the spell's actual level up to the slot it's using, but it does nothing on its own.

Ahem...
There's a certain gnome (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=290914) that would take offense with this statement.
sparkster4242
08-06-07, 10:07 PM cog:
'free metamagic all around'? hardly - the only bit that even approaches 'free' is the one with the least effect... and even then, the cost is a bit higher than 'free'.

have you actually looked at the benefits Heighten provides, and compared them to its cost?

as to the matter of DM sanity ... myself and 2 other DMs in my local circle have experimented with the, as you would have it, 'free' Heighten - and for the most part, it is _still_ a sub-par feat for a character to take. even throwaway npcs will generally have something more productive to do with their feats.
we have also in one case experimented with doing away with the feat entirely, and tying the DC of a spell to the slot used to cast it - and so far, none of us have seen that it matters all that much. its been our experience that spellcasters tend to use their highest-level spells anyway, so the DCs dont really have much room for improvement.
cog_n_taz
08-06-07, 10:29 PM While I disagree that it's a sub-par feat, this idea has been disproven time and again already. It's useless, just a stupid mistake I made, might as well let it die.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cog_n_taz 07-04-07, 03:21 AM	First of all, this is my first post here, and I'm no optimization wizard, so I'm probably wrong. Nevertheless, please bear with me. Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but last I checked, there's no particular order that metamagic feats are applied in. As such, it should be possible to heighten a spell to the spell slot it's already metamagic'd up to. Maybe it would help if I provided an example... Fireball, 3rd level spell. Maximized fireball, 6th level spell. So... get a maximized fireball, heighten it to 6th level. This means that it's still taking a 6th level spell slot, but has 6th level spell DC and the like. What say you, TO boards?
andinel 07-04-07, 04:36 AM	A maximized fireball already takes a 6th level spell slot, so the DC adjusts accordingly. You don't need to involve Heighten Spell to get the DC increase.
cog_n_taz 07-04-07, 05:07 AM	Eh? I thought it didn't... so why use heighten spell (except fo the sake of the killer gnome build), when you can metamagic it up to that level, and get some extra effects?
_V_ 07-04-07, 06:03 AM	A maximized fireball already takes a 6th level spell slot, so the DC adjusts accordingly. You don't need to involve Heighten Spell to get the DC increase. I disagree. A spell modified with metamagic functions at its normal spell level, even though it requires a spell slot of higher level than normal. Using our previous example of a charm person spell placed into 3rd-level spell slot because of metamagic, the spell functions as a 1st-level spell in all respects. If a wizard with an Intelligence score of 11 casts the spell, the saving throw DC is 11 (10 + 1 [spell level] + 0 [Intelligence modifier]). The wizard can cast the modified spell even though his Intelligence score is only 11, which is sufficient for a 1st-level spell but not for a 3rd-level spell. All other variables or characteristics that depend on the example spell's level, such as its ability to penetrate a minor globe of invulnerability effect, function at the spell's original level (1st). The Heighten Spell feat is an exception to the foregoing. When increasing a spell with the Heighten Spell feat, the spell functions at its increased level. For example a charm person spell heightened to 3rd level has a base save DC of 13, requires a relevant ability score of at least 13, and functions as a 3rd-level spell in all other respects. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050503a
cog_n_taz 07-04-07, 06:06 AM	Thank'ee. So this, moderately broken as it is, works? (Not that I intend to use it, mind you, hence my choosing the TO boards for this). Also, is it as broken as I think it is, or is it still mild? Additionally, would you mind checking on the forgewraith thread on this forum? I'm confident that that works, but I would like to know what people think of it.
Gideon_Gideonson 07-04-07, 09:06 AM	You know what? By RAW, you're right. HEIGHTEN SPELL [METAMAGIC] Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level. In fact...according to that ruling, I think you could Persist, Maximize, Twin, Chain, Empower, Still, Silent, Quicken a spell...say, Magic Missile, and then Heighten it to 2nd level...which, with the way the feat's worded, would make it a 2nd level spell. But that may also be a mistake from me typing this after getting no sleep last night.
cog_n_taz 07-04-07, 09:10 AM	Glad I'm right, but thankfully, you can't quite do that. The feat's name is heighten spell, you can't lower the spell level with it. Say, take that same maximized fireball, a 6th level spell. You can heighten it to level 6, but you can't, say, heighten it to level 2, in much the same way that you can't heighten a plain old meteor swarm to cantrip level.
Phalo 07-04-07, 11:36 AM	I think i may be reading this wrong form what you guys are. but sounds to me like you want to maximize a fireball then heighten it and use a lower level spell slot that 6th. With how I read the heighten spell feat only increases spell level. Example you heighten a fireball to 6th level (it takes up a 6th level spell slot) Then you maximize it takes a 9th level slot. This fireball would do 60 damage have a DC for saving throw of 16+your modifier and is capable of passing through a globe of Invulnerability(since it is a sixth level spell.
cog_n_taz 07-04-07, 06:15 PM	Nope, ya have it wrong. There's no order in which to apply metamagic, so you can maximize it to 6th level, and the heighten it to 6th level for free.
NineInchNall 07-05-07, 01:50 AM	Order matters, else you either end up with mathematical race conditions. As order matters, we summarily reject the initial premise.
cog_n_taz 07-05-07, 01:58 AM	Alright, more-intellectual-than-thou is my second language, but basically, you're saying that things stop making sense if no order is enforced, so order should be enforced, and thus this doesn't work? Sorry, but the TO boards aren't about making sense, I thought that was established. :P Additionally, it seems I was the sleep deprived one back there. Gideon appears to be right, so unless someone comes up with a counter argument, well... ladies and gentlemen, I believe I and gideon have discovered (or rediscovered, knowing these boards)......infinite free metamagic. To cheapen it even further, heighten it by one level, with arcane thesis, to keep the spell at the original level.
Djief 07-05-07, 02:29 AM	Anyhow it's written somewhere that you can apply metamagic feats in any order you wish. Just don't have the reference =S
cog_n_taz 07-05-07, 03:55 AM	woohoo! Finally, my own little meaningful contribution...which has likely being discovered by LoP, tempest, radicaltaoist, or ghola some time ago:P . Knowing this community, by the way, I don't think anyone will listen without a reference, not that I doubt you, thanks anyway though. And now, if this really does work, I'm sure there's some TO build that can make use of it. Perhaps a wizard/incantatrix or whatever gives the most metamagic feats, plus arcane thesis for your favorite level 9 spell. hang on, didn't practical/easy metamagic reduce metamagic costs by one? If so, arcane thesis is unnecessary. Now, combine this with TG's infinite spells per day build, and... quick, somebody slap me! :P
Callix 07-05-07, 04:40 AM	Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can’t apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell. No mention of order. Can someone trump this? If no order is assigned by the rules and order is necessary, then order must be at the doer's discretion, no?
cog_n_taz 07-05-07, 04:58 AM	Yup, that's what I figured. however, it says that changes in level are cumulative. We all know this, but since it's worded like this, does that mean heighten spell is applied after? I.E. heightening a maximized fireball by one level will produce a 7th level spell slot rather than a 4th? If so, than that's my theory blown out of the water. If not, I've made a mildly groundbreaking discovery, which actually got put on the TO boards and survived for 24 hours, in which case my life is now complete:D .
psly4mne 07-06-07, 04:14 PM	I'm pretty sure that the quote _V_ posted invalidates this. I do remember discussing this before - we talked about it in my group, but I don't think it was brought up on the boards. Anyway, I'm going to say it doesn't work.
cog_n_taz 07-06-07, 06:33 PM	Okay, please dumb it down for the idiot. I entirely fail to see how that quote invalidates it, could you please explain? Thanks.
psly4mne 07-06-07, 08:31 PM	Actually, I meant the quote Callix posted - "Changes to its level are cumulative". Heighten spell does not say that it takes up a spell slot equal to its effective level; it says that it is "as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level". This strongly suggests that Heighten does not override the slot adjustment of other metamagic feats.
Alpha_Moose 07-06-07, 09:20 PM	Well this is confusing now. If I Empower a Fireball to 5th level, then Heighten it to 7th, does it act as only a 5th level spell for save DCs?
cog_n_taz 07-06-07, 09:24 PM	7th, A_M. And psy, thanks for clearing that up. I guess as soon as you debunk my other trick, I can leave this board to the experts as nature intended, sorry 'bout the annoyance.
Callix 07-06-07, 10:34 PM	A_M: If you empower a Fireball and heighten it to 7th level, it consumes a 9th level slot (assuming Heighten is cumulative). If you heighten it 2 levels and use a 7th level slot, saves are as a 5th level spell. Of course, if Cog were right, then the Heighten to 5th would be free, and use a 5th level slot. Still "effective spell level" in Heighten is pretty good to shut it out.
HotSake 07-07-07, 01:56 PM	I talked about this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12886823&postcount=247) (in the context of Sanctum Spell) in the Miracle at 6th thread. I was trying to show how the reading of Sanctum Spell being used as an argument against the trick also implied that Sanctum Spell made all metamagics free. I later extended it to show that, if you want to get silly, only the slot adjustment of the last metamagic applied counts. Of course, I was only trying a weak reduction ad absurdum. Interesting to see it pop up again.
ishihara 07-07-07, 05:47 PM	A_M: If you empower a Fireball and heighten it to 7th level... that pretty much sums it up, doesn't it. if you heighten it to 7th level it's going to consume a 7th level spellslot, cause it will be a 7th level spell! heighten spell, contrary to every other metamagic feat, specifically states that it alters the spells actual level and, as we all know, every other metamagic feat simply uses a higher spellslot. so technically an empowered fireball is still a 3rd level spell and heightening it up to 5th level should be possible without any additional cost in spellslots.
HotSake 07-08-07, 03:07 AM	A lot of people around here interpret Heighten as having no slot adjustment, and only being useful when other slot adjusting metamagics are applied to the spell. Essentially, you slap on Heighten to get the spell's actual level up to the slot it's using, but it does nothing on its own.
cog_n_taz 07-08-07, 04:55 AM	Ah, so I'm not alone, than? That's reassuring...
PhaedrusXY 07-08-07, 05:45 PM	There was a horrendously long and offensive thread about this quite some time ago on the Feats forum (I think). The consensus is that it doesn't work, because changes to slot used are cumulative. Wizards has also stated that you don't get to Heighten "for free". Personally, I like it and might allow it as a house rule. I think just having the DCs automatically scale with all metamagic feats, and getting rid of Heighten, is a better one, though.
cog_n_taz 07-08-07, 09:18 PM	Okay, thanks for clearing it up once again, I'm really sorry if this thread was offensive in any way.
PhaedrusXY 07-11-07, 01:56 AM	Okay, thanks for clearing it up once again, I'm really sorry if this thread was offensive in any way.No, it wasn't at all. The old thread had people getting quite nasty at each other, though.
Think0028 07-12-07, 01:23 AM	Okay, thanks for clearing it up once again, I'm really sorry if this thread was offensive in any way. As Phaedrus said. This sort of thing happens occasionally, and no harm, no foul. Discussions help keep the brain sharp, and noticing something like that in the first place is a good sign.
sparkster4242 07-26-07, 11:45 PM	cog: i would agree. its true, no consensus was really reached over in the long thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=316552). what it boils down to is, consult your DM. if you are the DM, then dont consult yourself - you might get an answer, and that would be a bad sign :p
Steidas 07-27-07, 01:57 AM	A lot of people around here interpret Heighten as having no slot adjustment, and only being useful when other slot adjusting metamagics are applied to the spell. Essentially, you slap on Heighten to get the spell's actual level up to the slot it's using, but it does nothing on its own. That's why RAW sucks, because all feats have a MEANING. Heighten just wanted to increase DCs. Read my sig, I didn't write it.
cog_n_taz 07-28-07, 02:21 AM	Eh? Sorry, didn't get that whole post, could you be a little clearer on what you mean? Also, thanks sparkster, but I myself am not sure at all by now. If anything, I'm inclined to think that it, essentially, only works if you take an "I really wish this worked" interpretation of the rules. I.E. the only way you could interpret it as rules legal is if you really want to. And...ask a DM? Come on, free heighten spell/free metamagic all around? No way will they allow that, but yeah, at the discretion of the DM, who will give you a very sound no, and possibly a miscellaneous blunt object to the head, if you dare suggest it.
snizor 07-28-07, 01:36 PM	A lot of people around here interpret Heighten as having no slot adjustment, and only being useful when other slot adjusting metamagics are applied to the spell. Essentially, you slap on Heighten to get the spell's actual level up to the slot it's using, but it does nothing on its own. Ahem... There's a certain gnome (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=290914) that would take offense with this statement.
sparkster4242 08-06-07, 10:07 PM	cog: 'free metamagic all around'? hardly - the only bit that even approaches 'free' is the one with the least effect... and even then, the cost is a bit higher than 'free'. have you actually looked at the benefits Heighten provides, and compared them to its cost? as to the matter of DM sanity ... myself and 2 other DMs in my local circle have experimented with the, as you would have it, 'free' Heighten - and for the most part, it is _still_ a sub-par feat for a character to take. even throwaway npcs will generally have something more productive to do with their feats. we have also in one case experimented with doing away with the feat entirely, and tying the DC of a spell to the slot used to cast it - and so far, none of us have seen that it matters all that much. its been our experience that spellcasters tend to use their highest-level spells anyway, so the DCs dont really have much room for improvement.
cog_n_taz 08-06-07, 10:29 PM	While I disagree that it's a sub-par feat, this idea has been disproven time and again already. It's useless, just a stupid mistake I made, might as well let it die.