I Go First (Challenge) [Archive] - Wizards Community

I Go First (Challenge) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Master_Vega
09-21-07, 02:13 PM I've been wondering how fast you can get a character's initiative with 1st-party sources, so here's a challenge.
Assuming the stat spread 9 10 14 15 16 18 (distribute ability increases as desired), what's the highest initiative bonus you can get by level ten without magical items*?

Sources allowed: First party D&D 3.5 books. (I'm not picky. I just want to see how high the numbers can get with official sources.)

Additional rules: The character can be of any species, but his/her effective level must be equal to 10.

No Punpun.

* Spell components and class features don't count.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to get stomped in this competition, but I thought I'd kick things off. :P
My starter entry:

Speedy McGofast :P

Halfling swordsage5/Psion1/Wizard4

Abilities: Str 12(14-2), Dex 22(18+2+2), Con 10, Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 9

Feats: Improved Initiative, Psicrystal Affinity (nimble), Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse (bastard sword)

Relevant class abilities: Quick to Act, Spellcasting.

Relevant spells: Cat's Grace

Initiative, natural: +14 (6+4+2+2)
Initiative, enhanced: +16 (6+4+2+2+2)

Have fun!
JaronK
09-21-07, 02:42 PM Wizard with Greater Celerity and the Dragonmark that makes you never flat footed.

You always go first, regardless of initiative.

JaronK
Callix
09-21-07, 06:20 PM Level 10 limit...
Wiz 9/Divine Oracle 1 always goes first. Always. Gods with the Supreme Initiative ability go after this guy. Actually comes together about 7th, and that's not to say this guy can guarantee winning with his one standard action, but he does always go first if he wants to. Celerity is awesome, eh?
deathwishjoe
09-21-07, 08:16 PM the psionic power anticapatory strike works just as well as celerity I believe and is like level 2 or 3 after the update from complete psionic

also I believe the arcane spell kaupers skittish nerves or nerve skitter grants +6 to init and while its questionable you can go with the hummingbird familiar for +3 or 4 and then go with the elvish wizard sub level for double the bonus from your familiar for even for bonus to ini.
Callix
09-21-07, 08:45 PM Psions can't get into Divine Oracle. That's what makes Celerity win D&D. Divine Oracle 1 is immune to surprise. That means he can always take an immediate action. Of course, a Psion 8/Wizard 1/Divine Oracle 1 can now set his initiative to wherever he likes in the first round of combat, so long as he takes Detect Magic and True Strike as Wizard spells. They really needed to put a level requirement on those divinations for Oracle. This build has arbitrary initiative. Whatever the initiative of his opponent, his initiative is a little bit higher.
Tempest Stormwind
09-22-07, 03:23 AM Immune to surprise is NOT the same as "not flat-footed". Even in a normal, non-surprise round, you're flat-footed until you act. I think the only way around that which doesn't involve losing too many caster levels is the afforementioned Mark of the Stars in Dragonmarked (which also counters surprise but explicitly says you're not flat-footed). Once you're not flat-footed, Greater Celerity or Anticipatory Strike let you act NOW.

(The difference is that Greater Celerity is MUCH better, especially with Mark of the Dauntless (immune to daze). You can get both feats by level 15, if I recall correctly. Also, Anticipatory Strike is still 5th level, and it was one of the many reprinted powers to get *weaker* in CPsi -- it lost the augment that fixed your initiative to the new result. That augment, combined with Synchronicity, would let you turnjack deities in such a way that their turn would never come up.)
Djief
09-22-07, 01:00 PM Doesn't a Dire Tortoise (or is it another monster ?) wins this ? Surprise round > init :P
Tempest Stormwind
09-22-07, 01:56 PM Doesn't a Dire Tortoise (or is it another monster ?) wins this ? Surprise round > init :P

Dire Tortoise, sandstorm. It *always* acts in the surprise round, and if there's no surprise round, it gets one.
altpersona
09-22-07, 02:32 PM how do you get a dire tor as a familiar/animal companion...
CrimsonDeath
09-22-07, 09:46 PM Dire Tortoise, sandstorm. It *always* acts in the surprise round, and if there's no surprise round, it gets one.

Does it have to act first in the surprise round?
Djief
09-23-07, 03:28 AM Does it have to act first in the surprise round?

Give it access to foresight or something.
Dilbao
09-27-07, 07:06 PM Lets say you can take Imp. Init multiple times. Bonus is typless and feat doens't say that you can't take it again.

Human/Fighter(10)
Dex:18+2
Feats: Imp. Initiative x10
Init: +45 (5 Dex + 40 Feat)

That should be enough :P
The_Mad_Linguist
09-27-07, 07:19 PM Lets say you can take Imp. Init multiple times. Bonus is typless and feat doens't say that you can't take it again.

Human/Fighter(10)
Dex:18+2
Feats: Imp. Initiative x10
Init: +45 (5 Dex + 40 Feat)

That should be enough :P

Same sources don't stack, even if they're typeless.

And

What the feat enables the character ("you" in the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.
PhaedrusXY
10-01-07, 01:37 PM Not to mention that the rules explicitly state that you can't take feats multiple times, unless they expressly state that you can in their description.
BoSheck
10-02-07, 01:47 PM Dire tortoise at lvl 10:
Dangerously Cheesy:

Druid+2/Major Bloodline+2/Druid+2/Beastmaster+1/Animal lord+1/Abolisher+1/Major Bloodline+1
Druid4
Animal Lord+1
Beastmaster+1
Abolisher+1 (I believe thats it. Lord of Madness?)

Druid Variant to get track at 1st level, lose wildshape, get it back limitedly through abolisher.
Animal companion as a: 26th level druid.

I think.

Alternatively you, in the objective of not 'automatically going first' but having an incredibly high initiative modifier go: Improved Initiative+Marshal+Dread Commando+Sign+Yondalla Sense (or some such. Sign is nice too.) It depends on your stats, and all. Cleric/Marshall would be charisma and wisdom based, You'd have to be a halfer, but thats fine--more dex for init. Something like Wis+Dex+Cha+4+4(five? Sign bonus.)+Dread Commando. Leadership would be best to pick that up with.

Not the most optimized, not a 'i go first, automatically,' but in the spirit of the challenge.
Alpha_Moose
10-10-07, 04:29 PM Take Eternal Blade to lvl 10 to get Island in Time. Then PoA into a minotaur. Now you can go first every encounter. Moment of Alacrity makes sure that you can continually go first in each subsequent round.
archerpwr
10-18-07, 02:03 AM Build that's actually likely (assuming dragon for the hummingbird):
Fire elf wiz 6/swiftblade 4
1) improved init
3) elven sub lvl for hummingbird
9) quick recon
Dex + int + 4(feat) +2(feat) +5(neverskitter) +2×4(familiar)

Dex: 14+4(cat's grace) +2 race
int: 15+2 lvl + 4(fox's cunning) +2 race

Total: 30 (22 without the hummingbird)

Pretty high for a build not focused on init IMO.
CrimsonDeath
10-18-07, 02:57 AM As written, I don't think the Elven Wizard sub level doubles initiative bonuses from a familiar. It only affects skill checks, saves, or hit points. But then, the Hummingbird is the only familiar that grants an initiative bonus, so I guess we're in "ask your DM" country.
archerpwr
10-18-07, 05:03 PM As written, I don't think the Elven Wizard sub level doubles initiative bonuses from a familiar. It only affects skill checks, saves, or hit points. But then, the Hummingbird is the only familiar that grants an initiative bonus, so I guess we're in "ask your DM" country.

Considering I assumed dragon, it's clearly ask your DM country. I just wanted to throw out a build that was actually quite likely to see play one day. I'm just fond of swiftblade I guess. If I really wanted to abuse this I'd have assumed some polymorph abuse, elven paragon, and a couple of other things.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Master_Vega 09-21-07, 02:13 PM	I've been wondering how fast you can get a character's initiative with 1st-party sources, so here's a challenge. Assuming the stat spread 9 10 14 15 16 18 (distribute ability increases as desired), what's the highest initiative bonus you can get by level ten without magical items? Sources allowed: First party D&D 3.5 books. (I'm not picky. I just want to see how high the numbers can get with official sources.) Additional rules: The character can be of any species, but his/her effective level must be equal to 10. No Punpun. Spell components and class features don't count. I'm pretty sure I'm going to get stomped in this competition, but I thought I'd kick things off. :P My starter entry: Speedy McGofast :P Halfling swordsage5/Psion1/Wizard4 Abilities: Str 12(14-2), Dex 22(18+2+2), Con 10, Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 9 Feats: Improved Initiative, Psicrystal Affinity (nimble), Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse (bastard sword) Relevant class abilities: Quick to Act, Spellcasting. Relevant spells: Cat's Grace Initiative, natural: +14 (6+4+2+2) Initiative, enhanced: +16 (6+4+2+2+2) Have fun!
JaronK 09-21-07, 02:42 PM	Wizard with Greater Celerity and the Dragonmark that makes you never flat footed. You always go first, regardless of initiative. JaronK
Callix 09-21-07, 06:20 PM	Level 10 limit... Wiz 9/Divine Oracle 1 always goes first. Always. Gods with the Supreme Initiative ability go after this guy. Actually comes together about 7th, and that's not to say this guy can guarantee winning with his one standard action, but he does always go first if he wants to. Celerity is awesome, eh?
deathwishjoe 09-21-07, 08:16 PM	the psionic power anticapatory strike works just as well as celerity I believe and is like level 2 or 3 after the update from complete psionic also I believe the arcane spell kaupers skittish nerves or nerve skitter grants +6 to init and while its questionable you can go with the hummingbird familiar for +3 or 4 and then go with the elvish wizard sub level for double the bonus from your familiar for even for bonus to ini.
Callix 09-21-07, 08:45 PM	Psions can't get into Divine Oracle. That's what makes Celerity win D&D. Divine Oracle 1 is immune to surprise. That means he can always take an immediate action. Of course, a Psion 8/Wizard 1/Divine Oracle 1 can now set his initiative to wherever he likes in the first round of combat, so long as he takes Detect Magic and True Strike as Wizard spells. They really needed to put a level requirement on those divinations for Oracle. This build has arbitrary initiative. Whatever the initiative of his opponent, his initiative is a little bit higher.
Tempest Stormwind 09-22-07, 03:23 AM	Immune to surprise is NOT the same as "not flat-footed". Even in a normal, non-surprise round, you're flat-footed until you act. I think the only way around that which doesn't involve losing too many caster levels is the afforementioned Mark of the Stars in Dragonmarked (which also counters surprise but explicitly says you're not flat-footed). Once you're not flat-footed, Greater Celerity or Anticipatory Strike let you act NOW. (The difference is that Greater Celerity is MUCH better, especially with Mark of the Dauntless (immune to daze). You can get both feats by level 15, if I recall correctly. Also, Anticipatory Strike is still 5th level, and it was one of the many reprinted powers to get weaker in CPsi -- it lost the augment that fixed your initiative to the new result. That augment, combined with Synchronicity, would let you turnjack deities in such a way that their turn would never come up.)
Djief 09-22-07, 01:00 PM	Doesn't a Dire Tortoise (or is it another monster ?) wins this ? Surprise round > init :P
Tempest Stormwind 09-22-07, 01:56 PM	Doesn't a Dire Tortoise (or is it another monster ?) wins this ? Surprise round > init :P Dire Tortoise, sandstorm. It always acts in the surprise round, and if there's no surprise round, it gets one.
altpersona 09-22-07, 02:32 PM	how do you get a dire tor as a familiar/animal companion...
CrimsonDeath 09-22-07, 09:46 PM	Dire Tortoise, sandstorm. It always acts in the surprise round, and if there's no surprise round, it gets one. Does it have to act first in the surprise round?
Djief 09-23-07, 03:28 AM	Does it have to act first in the surprise round? Give it access to foresight or something.
Dilbao 09-27-07, 07:06 PM	Lets say you can take Imp. Init multiple times. Bonus is typless and feat doens't say that you can't take it again. Human/Fighter(10) Dex:18+2 Feats: Imp. Initiative x10 Init: +45 (5 Dex + 40 Feat) That should be enough :P
The_Mad_Linguist 09-27-07, 07:19 PM	Lets say you can take Imp. Init multiple times. Bonus is typless and feat doens't say that you can't take it again. Human/Fighter(10) Dex:18+2 Feats: Imp. Initiative x10 Init: +45 (5 Dex + 40 Feat) That should be enough :P Same sources don't stack, even if they're typeless. And What the feat enables the character ("you" in the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.
PhaedrusXY 10-01-07, 01:37 PM	Not to mention that the rules explicitly state that you can't take feats multiple times, unless they expressly state that you can in their description.
BoSheck 10-02-07, 01:47 PM	Dire tortoise at lvl 10: Dangerously Cheesy: Druid+2/Major Bloodline+2/Druid+2/Beastmaster+1/Animal lord+1/Abolisher+1/Major Bloodline+1 Druid4 Animal Lord+1 Beastmaster+1 Abolisher+1 (I believe thats it. Lord of Madness?) Druid Variant to get track at 1st level, lose wildshape, get it back limitedly through abolisher. Animal companion as a: 26th level druid. I think. Alternatively you, in the objective of not 'automatically going first' but having an incredibly high initiative modifier go: Improved Initiative+Marshal+Dread Commando+Sign+Yondalla Sense (or some such. Sign is nice too.) It depends on your stats, and all. Cleric/Marshall would be charisma and wisdom based, You'd have to be a halfer, but thats fine--more dex for init. Something like Wis+Dex+Cha+4+4(five? Sign bonus.)+Dread Commando. Leadership would be best to pick that up with. Not the most optimized, not a 'i go first, automatically,' but in the spirit of the challenge.
Alpha_Moose 10-10-07, 04:29 PM	Take Eternal Blade to lvl 10 to get Island in Time. Then PoA into a minotaur. Now you can go first every encounter. Moment of Alacrity makes sure that you can continually go first in each subsequent round.
archerpwr 10-18-07, 02:03 AM	Build that's actually likely (assuming dragon for the hummingbird): Fire elf wiz 6/swiftblade 4 1) improved init 3) elven sub lvl for hummingbird 9) quick recon Dex + int + 4(feat) +2(feat) +5(neverskitter) +2×4(familiar) Dex: 14+4(cat's grace) +2 race int: 15+2 lvl + 4(fox's cunning) +2 race Total: 30 (22 without the hummingbird) Pretty high for a build not focused on init IMO.
CrimsonDeath 10-18-07, 02:57 AM	As written, I don't think the Elven Wizard sub level doubles initiative bonuses from a familiar. It only affects skill checks, saves, or hit points. But then, the Hummingbird is the only familiar that grants an initiative bonus, so I guess we're in "ask your DM" country.
archerpwr 10-18-07, 05:03 PM	As written, I don't think the Elven Wizard sub level doubles initiative bonuses from a familiar. It only affects skill checks, saves, or hit points. But then, the Hummingbird is the only familiar that grants an initiative bonus, so I guess we're in "ask your DM" country. Considering I assumed dragon, it's clearly ask your DM country. I just wanted to throw out a build that was actually quite likely to see play one day. I'm just fond of swiftblade I guess. If I really wanted to abuse this I'd have assumed some polymorph abuse, elven paragon, and a couple of other things.