Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lusden Veharo 04-18-07, 06:16 PM	Wizard flattens Fighter, as does basically any caster, even a Bard. Can an Adept do it, too? Not sure if you have enough variety of spells, and enough of them, to carry out a proper demolition of the Fighter. Assume equal gear, a normal town as the enviroment, and buff time (for both) as needed.
awaken_D_M_golem 04-18-07, 06:46 PM	I'll bite. I just checked what the Adept 1 gets via d20srd. It doesn't look good for the Fighter 1. An Adept with Wis 12 has one bonus 1st level spell, to go with the 1 it has from the class. Sleep range 110'. Sleep again. Lets say Adept has Wis 18. That's, what, a 90% chance of either sleep working ?! Ok, the Fighter isn't asleep. Adept has Touch of Fatigue spell. If it works - 70% chance, the Fighter can't run. Adept can get away, even if suffering a nasty smack. mmm kay. Fighter has to be an archer and stay way, way , away ... bonus feat advantage to pepper arrows. Now, no chance for Adept. Edit - If the Adept can finagle a way to read a scroll of Polymorph ... no chance for Fighter.
Alpha_Moose 04-18-07, 06:54 PM	At low levels, the Fighter should win. At higher levels, and I assume that the Adepts CL=class level, this is their spells at 5th level: 5th Level: baleful polymorph, break enchantment, commune, heal, major creation, raise dead, true seeing, wall of stone.(link (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/npcClasses.html)) I dunno. There's a good chance that the Adept could get the jump on him. Of course, you also have to account for NPC wealth vs PC wealth (assuming that the Fighter is a PC).
Lusden Veharo 04-18-07, 08:13 PM	*points to first post* Equal gear. Though it's not mentioned, both get PC creation rules. I'm wondering whether the weakest PC class (at least in duels) can take down the weakest real caster class.
Senevri 04-18-07, 08:36 PM	Well, they get Polymorph, Heal, Lightning Bolt, Stoneskin... Build as a melee machine, polymorph into wartroll, stoneskin.. Start with a lightning bolt, then go to town?
awaken_D_M_golem 04-18-07, 08:38 PM	I checked ranges on crossbows + longbows. The Fighter can always win a distance battle. So the Adept needs to close the gap. And he can't because the Fighter always has more feats. The only exception is to Polymorph. That's it and only it. The Adept should have a high Wisdom, so a 5% chance of something going wrong if the Caster level check fails, umm ... reading a divine scroll, which is rather rare. That's up until 12th level. Even so, the Fighter can buy the same gear the Adept can buy and/or UMD. Scroll of Polymorph costs 700 gp. Adept loses until it can get one. Then it prolly loses anyway. Mercantile feat + NPC gold + merc. discount = might get the 1st scroll after 1st encounter. Skin of Proteus costs 84000 gp. When Fighter gets this, it's totally over. Adept has a minor chance from 1/4 of 1st level until about, what, 12th level. Fighter with anti-magic item + a fast charge method. Snickt! Here I am thinking on my fingers ...
Think0028 04-18-07, 09:58 PM	I don't think Adept has enough defensive spells to hold out against the Fighter, nor offensive spells to take him out quickly. As mentioned, an archer fighter would probably be the best champion for Fighters. Adept might be able to hamper the Fighter with Baleful Polymorph eventually, but the saves probably won't be high enough. In all likelihood, I'd say the Fighter'd win (shock!). And this raises another question that I've been thinking of: assuming no PHB2 (and thus no celerity), can a wizard be guaranteed to throw up a defense if the fighter wins initiative? If not, then that may be the one time fighter has a chance to win a one on one duel. Especially with a good bow, probably Splitting. Maybe a Goliath with a splitting bow and Rapid Shot. Could do 4d6+10 at 1st level, and at 20th, with a, say, +3 Splitting Composite (+12) Longbow, he could get 20d6+150 damage. 220 damage hurts, yo. Hit chance might be too low, but there are ways to pump damage aside from composite, I'm just too lazy to look right now.
The_Mad_Linguist 04-19-07, 10:00 AM	And this raises another question that I've been thinking of: assuming no PHB2 (and thus no celerity), can a wizard be guaranteed to throw up a defense if the fighter wins initiative? Contingency.
Think0028 04-19-07, 10:24 AM	Woops, thought I clarified that in the post. Yeah, a wizard with any prep time at all is guarenteed to win, I'm curious about a no-prep time fighter-wins-initiative setup. Granted, this is rather specific and limiting towards the wizard, but I'm curious.
Senevri 04-19-07, 04:10 PM	Dwarf wizard with CON 16, +6 Item, improved toughness. 140 HP before dice. 190 avg. a chance to survive the first round.
epifreak 04-20-07, 09:11 AM	Especially with a good bow, probably Splitting. Maybe a Goliath with a splitting bow and Rapid Shot. Could do 4d6+10 at 1st level, How are you affording a splitting bow at first level?
Prominence 04-20-07, 09:44 AM	In a fight, the victor will be the one who chooses his or her items more wisely. Chances are, an adept will.
awaken_D_M_golem 04-20-07, 04:23 PM	On the Other hand ... If the Adept gets a jump on the Fighter, even optimizing the F for losing initiative , it looks bad. Iron Will and an 18 Wis still lets a Sleep end the fight , what , ~25% of the time ?! So the F turns and runs to get away, but can't really ... the A would just Sleep again. If the A goes first , it might win. So the F needs to be opt-ed for losing initiative. Grappling ? :eek: ?
Think0028 04-21-07, 10:47 AM	How are you affording a splitting bow at first level? Teaches me to not type while brain dead. Rapid shot + Large Longbow gets you that at 2nd level, the preceding sentence was just where I threw in my rambling thoughts.
PhaedrusXY 04-21-07, 12:05 PM	The Adept also has Mirror Image, and Animate Dead. It has plenty of defensive spells, some very good buffs, and can form a legion of animated monsters. Ignoring stupid things like the fighter putting alot of resources into Use Magic Device (which has absolutely nothing to do with the fighter class, and indeed is side-stepping the entire point of the thread), and the Adept/caster not having any preparation time at all (which is equally ridiculous at higher levels), I don't think the fighter has much of a chance. Also, it looks like a huge oversight to me that the Adept spell list does not include the Inflict spells. So, the Adept starts out totally surrounded by its legion of doom, preventing the fighter from charging it. It could also do something silly like start out taking total cover by being inside of a huge zombie or something, if the fighter is an archer. Once the fight starts, it uses it spells to stay out of harms way, and then buffs itself and goes into melee, or stays back and blasts with its spells. It also has a familiar, which it could buff the crap out of and send into melee (Polymorph, Stoneskin, Mirror Image, etc), while the adept itself stays back and blasts. I think it is far from a sure thing either way. A well built fighter could probably win, but it would have to be a quite well built fighter. Using Core only, it would be tough. If the Adept is as well built and well played, I think it actually has the advantage.
awaken_D_M_golem 04-21-07, 02:30 PM	Here I am, going this way and that way, like the Blood War in the early days. PhaXY has shown me the light - as usual. You know how in chess, you can get a stale-mate going? And as a strategy of intentionally not losing or winning, that would just muck things up. Adept goes first + beats save = wins Adept goes first + loses save / Fighter moves out = stalemate Adept goes first + loses save / Fighter charges = toss-up Fighter goes first + charges = toss-up Fighter goes first + moves out = stalemate Fighter out of range = Arrows of death So the Adept has to use Scrolls and Spellcraft checks to be ahead of the curve. But then the Fighter just gets out of the way, and waits. War of Attrition. Endurance check might decide the whole thing - or does the Fighter have enough arrows. Then at high levels PhaXY 's strategy kicks in and Fighter prolly loses. :( Where's all those "Adept is Stronger than the Fighter" threads !!! WOW
Think0028 04-21-07, 05:03 PM	And those situations, as per usual, assume (perhaps illogically: there is night, y'know) no prep time, 'cause I think we've proven reliably that Adept would kick Fighter's butt with preparation.
awaken_D_M_golem 04-22-07, 02:38 PM	Heh. You're not going to believe this, but ... Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated. Further more - 2 levels of an NPC class count as 1 CR increase, and there's a few more quirks. So, a 17 HD creature, say like a Triceratops. is advanced one hd from 16 to 17. Now it can take 16 levels of Adept and have it's CR only go up by 8. Said Triceratops is now (probably) a CR 17 creature. But why Adept 16 you ask ?? That's the level it reaches top level spellcasting. Wait for it. OK, redo it's stats such that it has a "17" in Int and a "10" in Wis, as if doing a point buy. In other words, it's S D Co Ch are all 2 or 3 points lower, W the same, and Int is 10. As it levels up, stick the stat increases into Wis, and get a Horn Ring of +4 Wis. Might need Gloves of Man. Stick the skill points into Knowledge(religion) and Spellcraft. Stick the epic feats into Improved Spell Capacity 4 times. Our happy little Triceratops now qualifies for Epic Spells. :bounce: Triceratops + Epic Spells = CR 17. No need to say more.
The Rizz 04-22-07, 09:24 PM	Further more - 2 levels of an NPC class count as 1 CR increase, and there's a few more quirks.Uh, no. It's CR = NPC levels - 1. It's not CR = ½ NPC levels.
The_Mad_Linguist 04-22-07, 10:24 PM	Uh, no. It's CR = NPC levels - 1. It's not CR = ½ NPC levels. Rules for nonassociated levels mean it's 1/2 the addition.
epifreak 04-22-07, 11:24 PM	Luckily the CR system includes the "If it looks silly difficult for its CR, adjust as you see fit" clause. Technically a voidmind wartroll is only a CR 13, but is it actually?
balor64 04-23-07, 02:12 PM	Luckily the CR system includes the "If it looks silly difficult for its CR, adjust as you see fit" clause. Technically a voidmind wartroll is only a CR 13, but is it actually?But what do you do about a 25 HD half-fiend phasm? It's CR 13 by the book (7 (base) + 2 (10 extra abberation HD) + 1 (size increased) + 3 (half-fiend) = 13), but it can use a CL 25 blasphemy to kill (with no save) any nonevil creature of 15 HD or lower, and paralyze (for 1d10 minutes) anyone 20 HD or lower (anyone who can gain XP for beating it) within 40 feet of it. And with it's alternate form ability, you might not recognize it as an enemy until it's too late. The problem is that a level 21+ party character could easily kill this thing, while anyone else would be autokilled/paralyzed+coup de graced by it. So what CR would you assign this advanced half-fiend phasm?
awaken_D_M_golem 04-23-07, 05:32 PM	Sorry I opened the CR can of worms. Within the context of Adept vs. Fighter, I posted a possible encounter with levels in Adept. Epic Spells win every time, unless say a Triceratops isn't being played by a TO board type. The point is : a Fighter can ... not ... do that. So what can a Fighter1 do that an Adept1 can't? +1 BAB, some more damage and range on weapons, better AC, slightly different skills, and ONE bonus feat. Here UMD is a bad choice for either, and doesn't distinguish F from A. F could get Improved Initiative and/or anything else to go first. Ok , so it needs to close the gap, hit, and damage enough to make A not be able to cast Sleep. Later - say half way through 1st level, A can use slightly high risk strategy of reading a Scroll of Polymorph. Via Spellcraft, if A succedes, A wins.
epifreak 04-24-07, 03:30 AM	Okay, give the fighter a spiked chain, the feat that prevents casting defensively (I forget the name at the moment), and all the iniative boosters you can. Win iniative, use helm of teleport or some other means of closing the gap as quickly as possible. Now the adept is incapable of casting defensively and can't just 5-step out of the way and cast, as you have reach. Toss in a potion of enlarge for giggles, and you've got a pretty standard start. Other useful feats would include the power attack/reckless attack combo, imp trip (duh), (potentially) imp unarmed/grapple. Basically, teleport in, and when the adept goes, you smack him/her for a larger amount of damage than the adept can concentrate for (power attack for a lot; the AC hit from reckless attack won't hurt you.) Don't even bother with armor, as he's not a melee threat (especially if you keep interrupting preventing the adept from shapechanging), and the armor doesn't help your touch AC. You're halfway there now, just don't let the adept get any breathing room, and you're probably kosher. At lower levels (before the teleportation kicks in), it might be worthwhile to grab the run feat and a pair of boots of striding and springing, giving you a 200ft run. Spend the first round (after winning initiative) running up to the adept. Once there, he is your plaything. Actually, this would be fairly effective against most casters, provided they don't have a "anytime something unpleasant is about to happen to me, such as receiving an extra hole in my head" contingency dimension door.
BoSheck 04-24-07, 11:35 AM	As far as the sleep=death arguement goes, Adept's victory percentage takes a major hit if you're dealing with an elf--which as far as being a ranged fighter is concerned, isn't so far fetched.
PhaedrusXY 04-24-07, 11:43 AM	<general anti-caster melee strategies>Yeah, that would be pretty effective. There are ways for the adept to still get a spell off (Metamagic Rod of Quicken, Shielded Casting feat, dismount so that you get soft cover from your mount, etc), but it definitely makes it more difficult.As far as the sleep=death arguement goes, Adept's victory percentage takes a major hit if you're dealing with an elf--which as far as being a ranged fighter is concerned, isn't so far fetched.This is just silly, though. Oh, how heroic. I couldn't face him in a face to face fight, so I stabbed him to death in his sleep. Nevermind the fact that the Adept has a familiar (which could have Scent, or Blindsense), and could be surrounded by his horde of undead bodyguards, which never sleep... Besides, I think the idea is "who would win in a fight", not "who could stab the other one to death in their sleep".
BoSheck 04-24-07, 12:36 PM	.This is just silly, though. Oh, how heroic. I couldn't face him in a face to face fight, so I stabbed him to death in his sleep. Nevermind the fact that the Adept has a familiar (which could have Scent, or Blindsense), and could be surrounded by his horde of undead bodyguards, which never sleep... Besides, I think the idea is "who would win in a fight", not "who could stab the other one to death in their sleep". I believe you misinterpreted what I said. Actually, I was referencing the general strategy of the CASTER using sleep as an auto-win scenario. IE: On the Other hand ... If the Adept gets a jump on the Fighter, even optimizing the F for losing initiative , it looks bad. Iron Will and an 18 Wis still lets a Sleep end the fight , what , ~25% of the time ?! So the F turns and runs to get away, but can't really ... the A would just Sleep again. If the A goes first , it might win. However, Immunity to magic sleep effects. That first little tidbit takes away the major edge of the Adept up to fourth level. (That is, the ability to end the fight in one spell.)
Aegeu 04-24-07, 03:18 PM	Color spray. At 1st and 2nd level, it will KO the fighter. At higher levels, it will at least blind them and give the adept time to breathe.
PhaedrusXY 04-24-07, 08:32 PM	Color spray. At 1st and 2nd level, it will KO the fighter. At higher levels, it will at least blind them and give the adept time to breathe.It would... if it were on their spell list! :P I believe you misinterpreted what I said. Actually, I was referencing the general strategy of the CASTER using sleep as an auto-win scenario.Oops! Sorry! :embarrass Yeah, at the lower levels an Adept might have a very hard time against an elven fighter, particularly an archer. Cause Fear would still be tough on the fighter, though.
epifreak 04-25-07, 09:46 AM	It would... if it were on their spell list! :P Oops! Sorry! :embarrass Yeah, at the lower levels an Adept might have a very hard time against an elven fighter, particularly an archer. Cause Fear would still be tough on the fighter, though. Unless it were a voidmind elf fighter ;)
Khaim 04-25-07, 10:13 AM	Cause Fear would still be tough on the fighter, though. How, exactly? The fighter is running away, yes, but the adept is only delaying the problem. The fighter will come back in a few rounds. Sure, adept can run away and keep running, but that's not really "winning" in my book.
PhaedrusXY 04-25-07, 11:34 AM	How, exactly? The fighter is running away, yes, but the adept is only delaying the problem. The fighter will come back in a few rounds. Sure, adept can run away and keep running, but that's not really "winning" in my book.Oh I don't know... by shooting him while he runs away, maybe? At that level, even fighters don't have that many hit points.
awaken_D_M_golem 04-26-07, 06:34 PM	So the Adept community rallies together for their brother and they craft a scroll of polymorph with ALL of the discounts. And our Adept has the mercantile feat, so s/he can afford it right off the bat. Ok - now the Fighter must go first to have a chance.
hogarth 04-28-07, 02:12 PM	In a vaguely related coincidence, there was a Fighter vs. Adept fight this week in the Core Coliseum. O.K. -- actually it was a half-giant Psychic Warrior 7 vs. svirfneblin Adept 8 fight, but that's close enough for government work, isn't it? (Note: the psychic warrior was using a Gargantuan adamantine kusari-gama, not archery.) Here's a link to the fight: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12221720&postcount=813
PhaedrusXY 04-29-07, 03:05 PM	The Adept used illegal tactics. The Invisibility the Familiar was holding would have dissapated as soon as the Adept cast Lightning Bolt. I posted a comment in the Discussion thread on the CoCo.
hogarth 04-29-07, 07:37 PM	The Adept used illegal tactics. The Invisibility the Familiar was holding would have dissapated as soon as the Adept cast Lightning Bolt. I posted a comment in the Discussion thread on the CoCo. It didn't matter ultimately, although it would've made a difference if Izumi were using a range weapon. Hey, I never said it was a great example of an adept vs. fighter battle...
PhaedrusXY 04-29-07, 09:21 PM	Hey, I never said it was a great example of an adept vs. fighter battle...:rofl:
awaken_D_M_golem 04-30-07, 04:11 PM	Adept vs. Divine Mind ??!! This one would take some sleuthing. DiM can either (1) go first or (2) metamorph. Right there, the battle becomes something of a 50/50 proposition. Strategically, the DiM should be stuffing as many grunts as possible into his Aura. This counters somewhat PhaeXY's animate dead approach above. There might be one power floating around that the Adept can do nothing about. I dare say DivineMind is "oh so slightly" better than the Adept. But it's quite a dare. :rolleyes:
PhaedrusXY 11-05-07, 01:16 AM	Bump for great justice! (I can't believe this hasn't been archived yet.)
Think0028 11-05-07, 11:04 PM	Wowza, I remember this. Still say that the Adept will have a hard time winning, but I bet I could whip one up in 20 minutes that could now. As for Divine Mind? C'mon, it isn't THAT bad.
KIDS 11-10-07, 06:09 PM	The Adept used illegal tactics. The Invisibility the Familiar was holding would have dissapated as soon as the Adept cast Lightning Bolt. I posted a comment in the Discussion thread on the CoCo. I don't think this is illegal - the Familiar wasn't holding invisibility. It has invisibility cast at it - the part about "you can cast any spell with a target of "you" as a touch spell on your familiar - and it wasn't even a "you" spell. So the way I see it, it should be legal. It was an interesting fight though. p.s. I see you didn't mean that invisibility, I misread it since I read over the seventh or whichever it was round. Your interpretation should be correct, though I still hold that it wouldn't have been a difference.) I'd say that a fighter who does some solid optimization will most likely win (assuming an average adept, not the polymorph scroll at 1 cheese), but an average fighter, or gods forbid, sword and board or Redgar example or starting package would get absolutely owned.
PhaedrusXY 11-14-07, 12:26 AM	Yeah, if we compare an optimized fighter vs. a crappy adept, I'd say the fighter would win, also. If we compared an optimized fighter vs. an optimized adept, with whatever splatbooks you want, it would be a decent match, but the fighter might actually have an advantage. If restricted to core only, I'd bet on the adept to soundly spank the fighter at most levels.
BillTheManiac 11-14-07, 09:18 PM	against an NPC class the fighter might actually have an advantage. I occasionally read the theoretical optomization boards, so I should be used to how broken 3.5 is, but this line just about sums up all of it better then any given page of the Pun-Pun thread.
awaken_D_M_golem 11-18-07, 02:45 PM	... Divine Mind ... Divine Mind from CPsi is very bad. The Mind's Eye update made it playable, along with a few other things. I made that comment (above) before the Mind's Eye came out. Dealing with the CPsi only Divine Mind, is a weird version of inverted gestalt. If you started with Fighter 4, but removed the 3 bonus feats, and you started with Adept 4, but removed the spell-casting, and gave it 1 10' Aura, 1 lesser feat coupled to the aura, and the Paladin's 2nd level ability, as a supposed equal exchange, well ... you'd be halle-lucinating, for your deity. I guess the Divine Mind community could come together, for the Zero powers known, but I have a powers list anyway, 1st level DivM, and hand him a psionic item that an Adept can't do anything about. And that might let a DivM win a one on one vs. an Adept. Maybe.
CrimsonDeath 11-18-07, 05:20 PM	Divine Mind from CPsi is very bad. The Mind's Eye update made it playable, along with a few other things. That, I believe, is debatable.
awaken_D_M_golem 11-20-07, 04:21 PM	Divine Mind + Mind's Eye = debate? , well of course. The reason you wouldn't want to debate it, is because, the book keeping necessary to actually have a playable Divine Mind, is plain old annoying. At 8th level, Schism and Psychic Reformation, let you have ALL Auras available. Link metapsionic gets them faster. At 14th level, a Hustle Link Hustle Twin item, lets 4 or 5 switches of the Auras take place each round. DM round 1 - so what's your action? DivM - I'm'n'a switch 5 different auras among the 30 I have available. DM - can I see the paper work? DM round 2 - so what's you action? (dripping with swett) DivM - repeat of round 1 DM - grrrrr Yep - it's playable, especially with that 17th level Druid summoning stuff into the Auras.