Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bassetking 05-29-07, 04:29 PM	Recently, reading through the Tome of Battle, I had an Idea. A wicked Idea. I had a wicked, awful Idea. In the spirit of that Idea, I present as my first foray onto the Wizard Boards...(EDIT: Thurdsay, June 26th, 2007. The build did not function in its original inception. That has been corrected, and replaced with a functional build. Thanks go to Ithamar for pointing out the Imbued Healing feat.) Brando Boughswain, Halfling Cleric 1/Crusader 13 Cleric 1 (Imbued Healing: luck) Crusader 2 Crusader 3 Crusader 4 Crusader 5 Crusader 6 Crusader 7 Crusader 8 Crusader 9 Crusader 10 Crusader 11 Crusader 12 Crusader 13 (Aura of Chaos) The stance "Aura of Chaos" allows you to re-roll and add any damage dice that you roll at their maximum damage. The Feat "Imbued Healing: Luck" Allows you to, for a number of minutes equal to the level of an expended "Cure" spell,allows you to treat all rolled "1's" as "2's" when you roll for damage. Use a Gauntlet, punch someone with a shuriken, hit them with a Braid Blade, or a crescent knife. Any 1d2 weapon works. all rolls of the 1d2 weapon are treated as 2's, while under the influence of the Imbued Healing feat. What is accomplishable with theoretically infinite damage, I'm uncertain, beyond one-shotting the Tarrasque, but I'm certain that this board could offer some suggestions. Any ideas, folks, on the potential uses of infinite damage? NOTE: (This build works with any 1d2 damage weapon, So, would you choose to substitute a Braid Blade, Crescent knife, or any other 1d2 weapon of choice, feel free.)
The_Mad_Linguist 05-29-07, 04:31 PM	Been offered before. The problem is it has to be a maximum dice roll, and you don't roll anything.
Hyfigh 05-29-07, 06:08 PM	How about 1d2 damage? Small creatures unarmed strikes, gaunlets, and whips deal 1d2 damage. This could have potential if you can have an outrageous number of attacks...
Fwib 05-29-07, 06:52 PM	How about 1d2 damage? Small creatures unarmed strikes, gaunlets, and whips deal 1d2 damage. This could have potential if you can have an outrageous number of attacks...Trouble is: d2, reroll and add if you get a 2, averages out at... errr... 3, I think.... (I may have done the sums wrong, but I don't think it's a lot) [edit]Rizz gives the results below. Yep. 3.
Think0028 05-29-07, 11:49 PM	Trouble is: d2, reroll and add if you get a 2, averages out at... errr... 3, I think.... (I may have done the sums wrong, but I don't think it's a lot) Results are: 1 3 (2+1) 4 (2+2) Adds up to 8, average is 8/3, or 2.66.
The Rizz 05-30-07, 01:24 AM	Actually, to calculate average damage, you figure the average damage on a roll, then the amount again modified by the odds of having rolled max, which itself is modified by the odds of having rolled max, etc. Anyway, by the math, for each die size it comes out to about: d2 = 3 d3 = 3 d4 = 1 1/3 (~ 1.33333) d6 = 4 1/5 (4.2) d8 = 5 1/7 (~ 5.1429) d10 = 6 1/9 (~ 6.111111) d12 = 7 1/11 (~ 7.090909) The average extra damage, by die size, is: d2 = 1.5 d3 = 1 d4 = 5/6 (~ 0.83333) d6 = 7/10 (0.7) d8 = 9/14 (~ 0.6429) d10 = 11/18 (~ 0.61111) d12 = 13/22 (~ 0.590909) Average extra damage involving 2 dice will be far lower, due to the rarity of max damage. So, really, while the stance has the potential of making the damage huge, it is unlikely and does very little on average.
Fwib 05-30-07, 02:36 AM	Results are: 1 3 (2+1) 4 (2+2) Adds up to 8, average is 8/3, or 2.66.You keep re-rolling until you don't roll a maximum.
Surreal 05-30-07, 03:42 PM	The formula for average damage is an infinite recursive thingy. I think the formula would go something like this: (Where N is the number of sides on the die, and Y is the function) Y = 1/N * [N(N+1)/2 + Y] edit: which may or may not work out to what The Rizz calculated above. I'm too lazy to run the numbers right now (that and I don't quite remember how to calculate the infinite series). edit 2: I suppose the function would simplify to: Y = (N+1)/2 + Y/N hmm... something doesn't look right.
psly4mne 05-30-07, 04:57 PM	Results are: 1 3 (2+1) 4 (2+2) Adds up to 8, average is 8/3, or 2.66. Your lack of common sense disturbs me. :nonono: The formula for average damage is an infinite recursive thingy. I think the formula would go something like this: (Where N is the number of sides on the die, and Y is the function) Y = 1/N * [N(N+1)/2 + Y] edit: which may or may not work out to what The Rizz calculated above. I'm too lazy to run the numbers right now (that and I don't quite remember how to calculate the infinite series). edit 2: I suppose the function would simplify to: Y = (N+1)/2 + Y/N hmm... something doesn't look right. Surreal, you are on the money. The equations solves to Y = N(N+1)/2(N-1), which is a slight improvement over the usual (N+1)/2. An easier way to see it is as a geometric progression. This gives us a general result, with base damage MdN, of M(N+1)/2) * N^M/(N^M-1), where the first factor is the usual damage and the second is the result of a geometric series. In other words, base damage of MdN is increased by 1 part in N^M-1.
Think0028 05-30-07, 06:11 PM	Your lack of common sense disturbs me. :nonono: I have a sinus infection, forgive me. I realized my mistake afterwords, if it helps.
pfooti 05-31-07, 10:12 AM	Been offered before. The problem is it has to be a maximum dice roll, and you don't roll anything. I have a d1 in my dice bag, I don't know about you.
Surreal 05-31-07, 02:34 PM	I have a d1 in my dice bag, I don't know about you. And I have a d100 and two d30's. Still searching for that elusive d24 however.
pfooti 05-31-07, 03:27 PM	And I have a d100 and two d30's. Still searching for that elusive d24 however. Ooh, I don't have a d24, but I do have a d3, d5, d7 and d16. The d3 and d5 are cheaters, though, they're just a d6 and d10 that's doubly numbered. I'd love a d24, I have a Button that uses it.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 05-31-07, 03:56 PM	The first time I read through the responses here, I didn't get where these equations were popping up. After pondering it out myself (just for kicks) I agree, but more I hope to show you where the posters above are getting those crazy equationz: (Warning: This turned out to be a long, long, rambling stream of consciousness post. I'm too lazy to go back and edit it) Average = "Expectation Value" = probability of event occuring times its value, summed with all possible events in the set. So in other words, AVG = SUM[ P(event)*event] over all possible events. So what you gotta do is come up with a systematic way of finding all the possible events. Take it step by step... first roll, what's the average? Well for an N-sided die its (1/N)*(N+(N-1)+(N-2)+...+(N-[N-1]). It sure would be nice to simplify that, wouldn't it? Well here's a famous trick, supposedly employed by Gauss at age 8. The story goes, that Gauss and his classmates were told by his grade school teacher to add all the numbers from 1 to 100, so the teacher could go out and have a smoke. Gauss answered before she could even get out of her chair. How? Think about this: 100 is the top number, 1 is the bottom number. Add them and what do you get? 101. 99 is the second to the top number and 2 is the second from the bottom number. Add them and what do you get? 101. Do that all the way until you run out... it will always add up to 101. How many times can you do that? N/2 times, of course, since you take 2 each time. So multiply N/2 by N+1 (since they always add up to N+1) and you get the total. That gives us the sum inside the parenthesis in our original equation. Divide it by N and we get the average: (N+1)/2. Now if you had an odd number of things, it's slightly more complicated... but there are no odd-sided dice in D&D. Anyways, the first roll will produce, on average, (N+1)/2. Now if we roll a max, we get to roll again. So we should subtract out the event {roll max}, because {roll max} never actually happens its more like {roll max then add another random number to it}. But then that roll will need to subtract out the maximal roll... To help the visualization of the series, look at a specific case of d4. The first chunk for d4 is: {1,2,3} The second chunk for d4 is: {4, {1, 2, 3}} Third chunk: {4, 4, {1, 2, 3}} The first order of business is to find out the sum of the chunks. Let me expand the third chunk, for example: 4,4,1 4,4,2 4,4,3 (commas separate each roll. So, the first line means we rolled 2 fours, then a 1). As you can see there are always going to be (N-1) rows. There will always be n columns. (n-1) of these columns are going to be maximal. So the maxima contribute (n-1)(N-1)N to the total for a chunk. The last column is nothing more than a sum from 1 to M, where M = N-1. Recall this sum is M(M+1)/2. Simplified, N(N-1)/2. To find the contribution to the average we need to multiply the value of the chunk by the chunk's probability. Here we're just defining an event to be multiple rolls, instead of 1. This chunk's probability is 1/N^n. So for an arbitrary chunk the contribution to the average is: [1/N^n]*[(n-1)(N-1)N+(N-1)N/2] ->[(N-1)/N^(n-1)]*[(2n-1)/2] Reality check now. Lets plug in for chunk 3 of a d4. With this formula I get [(9/16)*(5/2)] = 15/32. That looks good to me. Now we just need to do the sum over all n from 1 to infinity. SUM([(N-1)/N^(n-1)]*[(2n-1)/2]), n from 1 to infinity Holy **** batman, how do we solve that bastard? Here's the strategy to solving these kind of things: Mold it and shape it until a familiar series pops out. Experience is telling me that due to the n-1 exponent in the denominator we should expect a geometric series somewhere... so we'll look for those. ->[(N-1)/2]*SUM((2n-1)/N^(n-1)) ->let m = n-1, sums now range from 0 to infinity ->[(N-1)/2]*SUM((2m+1)/N^(m)) ->[(N-1)]*SUM(m/N^(m))+[(N-1)/2]*SUM(1/N^(m)) now to pull a classic manipulative trick: ->[(N-1)]*SUM(m/N^(m))+[(N-1)]*SUM(1/N^m)+[(N-1)/2]*SUM(1/N^(m))-[(N-1)]*SUM(1/N^m) ->[(N-1)]*SUM[(m+1)/N^(m)]-[(N-1)/2]*SUM(1/N^(m)) ->let 1/N = R, so N-1 = (1-R)/R, we then define (1-R)/R = A. ->A*SUM[(m+1)R^m]-(A/2)*SUM[R^m] ->since N >= 1, R <= 1, therefore the second term is geometric. ->A*SUM[(m+1)R^m]-(A/2)*(1/(1-R)) ->Second term looks suspiciously familiar no? Let's re-write in terms of the old n. (remember n -1 = m). Sum now goes from 1 to infinity. ->A*SUM[nR^(n-1)] - .... ->Oh snap, the inside is the first derivative of R^n. Since derivatives are linear operators we can drag it out front. I'll show this in two steps: ->A*SUM[(d/dR)R^n] ->(d/dR)[A*SUM[R^n]] ->(d/dR)[R/(1-R)] ->using chain rule and quotient rule we can evaluate the derivative... ->1/(1-R)^2 ->1-R = (1 - 1/N) = (N-1)/N ->N^2/(N-1)^2 = 1/(1-R)^2, 1/(1-R) = N/(N-1) ->Compute A = (1-R)/R = (N-1) ->(N-1)[N^2/(N-1)^2-N/2(N-1)] ->N(N+1)/(2(N-1)) Voila, the final formula. Lets see if it makes sense with Rizz's calculations for d2: (2)[3]/(2) = 3. That checks out. Another one just to be sure: d12: (11)[144/121-12/22] = 78/11 = 7 1/11. again that checks out. The average benefit of Aura of Chaos can be described also as: [N/(N-1)]*[AVG Value], where [AVG Value] is the normal average of the die. So best case senario, you'd get a doubling of your damage. That's actually pretty damn good. Hmmm...
Tleilaxu_Ghola 05-31-07, 03:59 PM	Ah, yea, I'd also REALLY appreciate it if someone would post the way to solve this using recursive equations. That's one thing my series analysis class really didn't cover too well. I do love manipulating series, however, as you perhaps can tell.
Fwib 05-31-07, 04:08 PM	So best case senario, you'd get a doubling of your damage. That's actually pretty damn good. Hmmm...The trouble is, you only get a doubling if you were doing d2+0 before - doubling from 1.5 to 3.0 is sadly less good. :(
Tleilaxu_Ghola 05-31-07, 04:12 PM	That would depend on how many shirken you could chuck...
Surreal 05-31-07, 04:20 PM	How many shuriken could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck... uh, shuriken?
psly4mne 05-31-07, 04:25 PM	There you go, T_G, always overcomplicating things. Really, this is very simple. How many shuriken could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck... uh, shuriken?Seven. Oh, was that a rhetorical question? Eight, then.
Surreal 05-31-07, 04:29 PM	Crumdiddles, where did the calculus come from? Calculus and mathematical induction make the baby Punpun cry.
Surreal 05-31-07, 04:37 PM	My stab at an explanation... - it's been established that the average value of a die roll is AVG = (N+1)/2 {eqn1} - taking that further, we could sum up all the sides then divide by the number of sides; the sum of all the sides works out to be SUM = N(N+1)/2 {eqn2}... dividing by N takes us back to equation 1 - so really the average value (without Aura of Chaos) can be consider to be Y = [N(N+1)/2]/N {eqn3} - now we factor in Aura of Chaos, which stipulates that on a maximum die roll we roll again - taking eqn3, it remains mostly unchanged except that our sum inside the square brackets is effectively increased. By how much? by the value of another average die roll, which is already represented by Y, thus the recursion - therefore (accounting for Aura of Chaos): Y = [N(N+1)/2 + Y]/N {eqn 4} - now just do a bit of algebra (which I'm ashamed to admit I didn't realize earlier) to solve for Y, giving us Y = N(N+1)/2(N-1) {eqn 5}
Tshern 05-31-07, 06:42 PM	Seven. Oh, was that a rhetorical question? Eight, then. Adaptation from Homer Simpson's response to her Mom when she was singing Bob Dylan with Lisa?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 05-31-07, 06:49 PM	Ah see... now that is better. The problem I was having is that I didn't see this crucial step: taking eqn3, it remains mostly unchanged except that our sum inside the square brackets is effectively increased. By how much? by the value of another average die roll, which is already represented by Y, thus the recursion I mean I kind of use that in my own method... but it never ocurred to me to put it in terms of a recursive formula. @Psly4mne: I knew it wasn't the easiest method of solution, but its the only way I could see to solve it using the definition of a discrete expectation value... now, thanks to surreal, I know better. But hey, it works and I got a chance to stretch my series manipulation muscles. (I'm actually surprised I remembered half of those tricks, let alone was able to see them. It's been 2 years since I had a class on that stuff.)
Surreal 05-31-07, 07:34 PM	One would hope that I have a knack for simplying things, seeing as it's been my weekend job for the past decade teaching extracurricular math to kids.
FromTheShadows 06-02-07, 01:10 PM	Admittedly, most of the math here is way, way out of my league. Still, I have to ask: What of bonus damage? If you're adding in Strength and other modifiers, the average damage of the dice will (most likely) start to matter less and the chance of a maximum roll will (again, most likely) start to matter more. Using a melee weapon that does 1d2 damage or, even better, a one-handed melee weapon (for the 1.5 Str bonus) would probably be the best way to go about this. I'm not sure if going for a massive number of attacks (small TWF unarmed with Snap Kick) or using a one-handed 1d2 melee weapon for the two-handed bonus (the only one I could find was a feycraft [DMGII] heavy shield bash) would be better, though. Alright, moment of insight/ranting/etc. over. Please continue to confuse me with your equations.
psly4mne 06-02-07, 01:33 PM	FTS, bonus damage don't enter into it. AoC affects the result of the dice, but it does not modify bonus damage. If it did, then AoC would turn damage of 1d2+B (average 1.5+B) into 3+2B, on average. The math for this is pretty simple. If we let Y be the total average damage, then we can write an equation for Y as follows: When we roll for damage, we have a 1/2 chance of rolling a 1, for a total of one plus bonus damage, and a 1/2 chance of rolling a 2, for a total of two plus bonus damage plus rerolled damage (via the same procedure). The last bit - rerolled damage using the same procedure - is, of course, just Y again. Thus we get the equation Y = 1/2 * (1+B) + 1/2 * (2+B+Y) doubling both sides, we get 2Y = 3+2B+Y, which is easily solved.
FromTheShadows 06-02-07, 05:19 PM	FTS, bonus damage don't enter into it. AoC affects the result of the dice, but it does not modify bonus damage. Know what? Never mind. I haven't been thinking straight lately; I forgot the ability only granted extra dice, not extra attacks.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 06-02-07, 10:28 PM	It would, of course, affect bonus dice... for d6 the multiplier is 6/5 (avg dmg = 7/2*6/5 = 42/10 = 4.2), which is almost as good as a die increase. Still gives a decent 20% increase to damage. It's not doubling, but it's a nice touch. Hmm... get a bludgeoning weapon w/ base 2d6 or 1d12 damage, apply greater mighty wallop to increase to colossal size. This increases damage to 8d6 base. Now add on your two favorite elemental enchants. Base damage now equals 10d6 (avg dmg = 35). Turn on AoC and average damage goes up to 42, an increase of 7 dmg per hit.
snizor 06-03-07, 02:18 AM	In case no one noticed, the Crusader 6 in the origenal post is ineligable to aquire Aura of Chaos.
Ithamar 06-12-07, 02:21 PM	In Complete Champion, Imbued Healing feat for Luck treats all damage rolls of 1 as if they were a 2. Using a 1d2 weapon and that feat / ability, would it work for the infinite damage combo?
psly4mne 06-12-07, 04:57 PM	In Complete Champion, Imbued Healing feat for Luck treats all damage rolls of 1 as if they were a 2. Using a 1d2 weapon and that feat / ability, would it work for the infinite damage combo? Yes. This was mentioned in another thread, but I can't remember where.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 06-13-07, 02:01 PM	Nice find! One might still run into the "you didn't roll it though" argument.
Walking Dream 06-14-07, 07:18 PM	Nice find! One might still run into the "you didn't roll it though" argument. Ah, but you did, you actually rolled the die, and "got a result" of two. Admittingly this has the "pay no attention to the die behind the curtain" effect, but if the feat says "treat as if you rolled" it looks like RAW says we need to learn to love the Shuriken.
darksteel_ninja 06-14-07, 10:22 PM	well then, time to make a new char Name :Shesadoma Trix Drow do i need to say anything more? NO!
Hyfigh 06-15-07, 02:46 PM	DM: "The great red wyrm stands tall, wings stretched out, displaying his well muscled body. He mocks you, 'Weak human, why have you chosen to bother me in my lair when you know it can only mean death?'." Player: "I throw a shuriken." DM: "You what?" Player: "I throw a shuriken." DM: "You're seriously going to attack a great red wyrm with a shuriken." Player: "Why not?" DM: "OK, roll damage." Player: "I got infinite. Is that enough to kill a a great red?" DM: :OMG!
darksteel_ninja 06-15-07, 05:19 PM	humans cant use tiny shurikan
Hyfigh 06-15-07, 05:30 PM	humans cant use tiny shurikan Shuriken, Exotic ranged weapon. damage 1 (small), 1d2 (medium) x2 crit. 10ft range. 1/2lb. Piercing. They don't use tiny shuriken.
Fwib 06-15-07, 06:04 PM	In case no one noticed, the Crusader 6 in the origenal post is ineligable to aquire Aura of Chaos.Yeah. Its a level 6 ability, so it needs you to be level 11 typically.
Exileman 06-16-07, 12:14 PM	I would wonder how each of that damage applies to DR. But, on another note, the aura of chaos ability says "When rolling damage for a melee attack". Shurikens are a ranged attack. This does put a damper on things, i know. I do have an alternative, more intensive idea though. Theoretically, one could cast a spell like cutting hand. Your hand becomes a knife with a +2 enhancement that deals 1d6. Since its a spell, it could be maximized. It requires a melee attack, all numerical veriable effects are maximized. The extra dice are numerical effects. You reach infinite once again.
darksteel_ninja 06-16-07, 06:34 PM	better idea 1. get cleave + great cleave 2. have wizzard cast tons of summon monster III and summon 1d4+1 level 1 monsters 3. Use a whip 4. have your charater be a drow 5. have fun with the carnage 6. in case of crit failure, take some luck feats^_^
The Rizz 06-16-07, 06:54 PM	Your hand becomes a knife with a +2 enhancement that deals 1d6. Since its a spell, it could be maximized. It requires a melee attack, all numerical veriable effects are maximized.Nope, it doesn't work like that. The spell turns your hand into a weapon - the spell itself actually deals no damage, and has no variable numeric effect.
The_Mad_Linguist 06-16-07, 07:45 PM	I would wonder how each of that damage applies to DR. But, on another note, the aura of chaos ability says "When rolling damage for a melee attack". Shurikens are a ranged attack. This does put a damper on things, i know. I do have an alternative, more intensive idea though. Theoretically, one could cast a spell like cutting hand. Your hand becomes a knife with a +2 enhancement that deals 1d6. Since its a spell, it could be maximized. It requires a melee attack, all numerical veriable effects are maximized. The extra dice are numerical effects. You reach infinite once again. Poke them with the Shuriken.
Djief 06-17-07, 01:08 PM	DM: "The great red wyrm stands tall, wings stretched out, displaying his well muscled body. He mocks you, 'Weak human, why have you chosen to bother me in my lair when you know it can only mean death?'." Player: "I draw a shuriken." DM: "You what?" Player: "I draw a shuriken." DM: "You're seriously going to attack a great red wyrm with a shuriken." Player: "Why not?" DM: "OK, roll your ranged attack." Player : "Ranged attack? I don't, I charge." DM: :uh-huh: "huh?" Player: "I touch an AC of 43" DM: "Ok, roll damage..." Player: "I got infinite. Is that enough to kill a a great red?" DM: :OMG! For added fun.
Hyfigh 06-17-07, 03:27 PM	Hehe. Poke's with a shuriken. This is getting fun.
Bassetking 06-26-07, 07:43 PM	Updated the build to its functional, proper form. Thanks go out to Ithamar for catching the Imbued Healing.
Gryftir 06-27-07, 11:07 PM	Hmm... are shuriken still 1d2 when wielded by a halfling? I think you need a gauntlet or a feycraft dagger.
Hyfigh 06-28-07, 11:08 AM	Which weapon you use isn't the all improtant part. Pick the race you want, then choose a weapon that will only deal1d2 damage. The trick works with any 1d2 damage weapon.
EpicEvokerElf 08-16-07, 10:17 AM	A halfling with a shuriken deals 1 damage, by default maximum.
Callix 08-16-07, 04:25 PM	EEE: We've already discussed this. It's maximum, but it's not rolled, so you can't get another roll. 1d2 where all 1's are treated as 2's, though, is both rolled and regarded as maximum.
Khaim 08-17-07, 11:52 AM	Trying to read that mess TG posted was not a good idea. It's actually fairly simple to figure out the average result given an Aura of Chaos effect. I worked it out for Deadlands a while back, which has that mechanic on all rolls. Oh, the days of getting a 37 on a DC 5 check to shoot someone... Anyways, the average roll for a dN is (N+1)/2. With AoC, a roll of N lets you roll again and add that result to your first roll; you have a 1/N chance to do this. If you roll another N, you get to keep going. Let X be the average damage of a dN. Then X = (N+1)/2 + X/N. Solve for X. X = N(N+1) / 2(N-1) In other words, Aura of Chaos increases you average damage by n/n-1, where n is the size of the die you're rolling. Basic math says it's most effective with small dice. Edit: Gah! Surreal got this months ago. That's what I get for being distracted by TG's fancy math.
NiteCyper 08-17-07, 07:54 PM	Heh, my friend is planning to do the same thing with the Gryphon's book of 3e feats. (not Source, but my DM allows it. I deleted it.) One of the feats allows you to max the damage on one attack. I don't know how many times a day. But yeah, that's what he's planning in our ECL 16 campaign. Nice find though.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 08-17-07, 09:22 PM	Trying to read that mess TG posted was not a good idea. That's why I put a disclaimer up at the beginning. I realized, after about 2 hours of manipulating, typing, and such that it was getting out of hand. I was just happy to be able to see my convoluted method through to the end.
gordonml 09-01-07, 11:07 AM	I'll just use a 1 damage weapon...than I can bypass the imbued healing(luck)...I think...
BillTheManiac 09-01-07, 12:33 PM	I'll just use a 1 damage weapon...than I can bypass the imbued healing(luck)...I think... Not rolling a die. It's 1 damage, not 1d1 damage.
Maat_Mons 09-06-07, 09:57 AM	Gah! Surreal got this months ago. That's what I get for being distracted by TG's fancy math. The last time Tleilaxu_Ghola posted a big complicated mess involving infinite sums instead of the simple solution, I was the one who accidentally pointed out the simple solution long after it had already been covered. …We should start some kind of club.
Sovin N'dore 09-20-07, 07:31 PM	Now we just need to work out a build that Incorperates this and Bloodstorm Blade so that we can "melee" with infinite damage shurikens everything in sight.
Spikes01k 09-25-07, 02:35 PM	OK, I am missing something here, please explane how this is infinite damage?
Djief 09-25-07, 02:42 PM	With the aura you reroll when you get maximum result on a die and you add it, you can go indefenitly if you keep rolling max damage. The imbued healing (luck) lets you treat all 1s you roll as a 2. You use something with 1d2 damage, if you roll 2, you reroll, if you roll 1, you consider it 2 so it's max so you reroll. Keep going untill everyone at the table throws all their dice at you.
Shallin 10-03-07, 06:48 PM	Now we just need to figure out how to break this some more. Here's some ideas: Sadism; For +infinity to saves, skills, and attack rolls next round Vampiric touch; For +infinity temporary hitpoints What else we got? Any good long term bonuses to replace sadism?
Think0028 10-03-07, 07:08 PM	Vampiric touch; For +infinity temporary hitpoints Now that Sage's ruling has come up with an easy way for +infinite temporary hitpoints: What happens when an infinite damage combo is performed on a guy with infinite temporary hitpoints and, say, 40 regular HP?
Ithamar 10-04-07, 01:30 PM	Vampiric Touch does not have an infinite duration though. Just keep swinging!
CrimsonDeath 10-04-07, 03:13 PM	What happens when an infinite damage combo is performed on a guy with infinite temporary hitpoints and, say, 40 regular HP? I'm pretty sure nothing happens. The guy who gets hit still has infinite temporary HP, since you can't really do normal math on infinite values. Now, if you could start a self-perpetuating loop that creates self-perpetuating damage loops, that would kill him, since that would do infinite damage squared.
Nadaka 10-04-07, 04:27 PM	It depends on rate that one approaches infinity at. IE the BigO of the series/sum. for instance Omega(N^2) will defeat Omega(NlogN) for any n sufficiently large.
Callix 10-04-07, 04:54 PM	It depends on rate that one approaches infinity at. IE the BigO of the series/sum. for instance Omega(N^2) will defeat Omega(NlogN) for any n sufficiently large. However, the two functions are identical. A life-stealing effect (it can't be Vampiric Touch, wrong damage dice) is inflated to infinity by this trick, granting the user infinite temporary HP. He is then hit by another 1d2 Crusader, and takes the exact same infinity in damage. The question is, will he: 1. Take negligible damage, since he has infinite HP? 2. Take damage precisely equal to his temporary HP? 3. Be instantly killed by the infinite damage? 2, while it looks good, is awkward to justify in the mathematics. I really don't know which will happen.
CrimsonDeath 10-04-07, 05:54 PM	(it can't be Vampiric Touch, wrong damage dice) According to a recent Sage ruling, if you use a weapon to deliver a Vampiric Touch (such as through Arcane Channeling), or if you deal sneak attack damage, the weapon damage and sneak attack damage get added to your temporary HP. The simplest way to apply that would be to take the basic infinite damage Crusader build, add five levels of Wizard (or six of Sorceror), and stack it on a Gnome with Improved Unarmed Strike. The 5d6 doesn't explode, but the 1d2 does.
Nadaka 10-05-07, 10:28 AM	However, the two functions are identical. A life-stealing effect (it can't be Vampiric Touch, wrong damage dice) is inflated to infinity by this trick, granting the user infinite temporary HP. He is then hit by another 1d2 Crusader, and takes the exact same infinity in damage. The question is, will he: 1. Take negligible damage, since he has infinite HP? 2. Take damage precisely equal to his temporary HP? 3. Be instantly killed by the infinite damage? 2, while it looks good, is awkward to justify in the mathematics. I really don't know which will happen. Hmm.... In the case of two infinite sums being of the result of the same equation, we can cancel the terms in sigma notation, resulting in the negation of both infinite temp hp and damage. Effectively the targets infinite bonus hp from the 1d2 explosion would be removed, but the temp HP from the spells dice would remain.
Aryxbez 10-07-07, 04:39 AM	Bravo, good sirs, you have done something that I find nifty, yet game breaking in a sense. Done are the need for uberchargers. I am going to likely try to find a use for this, or even use it myself? Perhaps convince a DM sane enough to allow it? Otherwise this is truly something I must tell others, and hope this never comes to play.
Noobofsonicbooms 01-04-08, 01:58 PM	use a 1d1 weapon you always roll your max roll
The_Mad_Linguist 01-04-08, 02:38 PM	use a 1d1 weapon you always roll your max roll The problem is there are no d1 weapons. Only weapons that do 1 damage. Since you don't roll it, it isn't your max roll.
BetaSquirrell 01-13-08, 12:45 PM	I think that the only reason they aren't 1d1 is because you save on the ink costs of the '1' and the 'd' (:P ), but, by rule, you did not roll it, thus no explosion.
Ohtaron 01-18-08, 03:12 PM	A dm could always have this function like an infinite loop in MtG - the player chooses an arbitrary number to stop the loop at. In that case, the infinite combo that happened second (the attack) could arbitrarily choose whatever number was required to beat the 'infinite' (arbitrarily large) hit points, but it does conveniently avoid dealing with infinite numbers.
Senevri 01-18-08, 06:02 PM	Well, Superman could take it. As could anyone with Indomitability running. Anyone with Delay Death + Beastland Ferocity running could survive it 'til the spells run out, but if they can persist those twice/day, they could live the rest of their lives at -inf HP... .
CrimsonDeath 01-19-08, 12:51 AM	A dm could always have this function like an infinite loop in MtG - the player chooses an arbitrary number to stop the loop at. In that case, the infinite combo that happened second (the attack) could arbitrarily choose whatever number was required to beat the 'infinite' (arbitrarily large) hit points, but it does conveniently avoid dealing with infinite numbers. Actually, I think that's how an arbirarily large loop works. A truly infinite loop (like if the only creature in play is a Faceless Butcher (http://www.wizards.com/magic/autocard.asp?name=Faceless%20Butcher) and two more get played) results in a draw, I believe.
skydragonknight 02-15-08, 08:36 AM	It depends on rate that one approaches infinity at. IE the BigO of the series/sum. for instance Omega(N^2) will defeat Omega(NlogN) for any n sufficiently large. This entire discussion reminds me of L'Hopital's Rule
Callix 02-17-08, 07:10 AM	This entire discussion reminds me of L'Hopital's Rule If this is bugging you, don't bother checking out the "Nasty Gentlemen" nova. That one set up a differential equation that they still haven't solved. It's just too big for anyone's computers to handle. But yes, L'Hopital's Rule is somewhat appropriate when you consider the ratio of two infinite values, as they are the limits of infinite series. The principle just gets expanded through set theory and gets much more annoying.
Nox_Noctis 02-23-08, 10:06 PM	For additional fun, you can use a Rod of Wonder to become Fine-size for a free +8 racial adjustment to attack and since almost all weapons do 1d2 damage at that size, you can take your pick. Your DM might rule that the size reductions affect your Strength though, so you may want to get a weapon you can finesse (since if your DM says the size reduction decreases your Strength [MM chart or something], your Dexterity will also be increasing). I'm not sure what weapons you can get 1d2 with and finesse with at that size though. The extra attack helps you land the hit originally so you can apply your infinite damage.
CrimsonDeath 02-24-08, 03:17 AM	For a weapon to do 1d2 damage at Fine size, it has to do 2d4 or 1d8 damage at Medium size. The only finessable weapons I can think of that do that kind of damage are the Spiked Chain and Elven Thinblade. Alternatively, if I understand the Feycrafted weapon modification correctly, you could get a Feycrafted Elven Courtblade and you'd be able to apply your Dexterity modifier to attack rolls without Weapon Finesse. (If I'm wrong, someone correct me.)