Post/Author/DateTime	Post
balor64 05-27-07, 10:59 PM	How to get an invincible phylactery: Cast a mordenkainen's magnificent mansion (AKA: mage's magnificent mansion) spell heightened to 9th level. Use all of the mansion's area on solid earth straight down, but make sure you leave enough open space for yourself. Enter the mansion. Cast a targeted dispel magic on your phylactery. Repeat until the spell succeeds. Cast animate objects on your phylactery. Cast imprisonment on your phylactery. Leave the mansion and dismiss it. You cast imprisonment on your phylactery while inside an extradimensional space. You then destroyed the extradimensional space. Your phylactery cannot be harmed until someone casts freedom on it from the extradimensional space. Since the extradimensional space no longer exists, your phylactery cannot be destroyed. Unless your phylactery is destroyed, you will reform 1d10 days after death. Since your phylactery cannot be destroyed, you cannot be permanently killed (except for a few things like time travel trickery and hunters of the dead). Imprisonment When you cast imprisonment and touch a creature, it is entombed in a state of suspended animation (see the temporal stasis spell) in a small sphere far beneath the surface of the earth. The subject remains there unless a freedom spell is cast at the locale where the imprisonment took place. Magical search by a crystal ball, a locate object spell, or some other similar divination does not reveal the fact that a creature is imprisoned, but discern location does. A wish or miracle spell will not free the recipient, but will reveal where it is entombed. If you know the target’s name and some facts about its life, the target takes a -4 penalty on its save.Temporal Stasis You must succeed on a melee touch attack. You place the subject into a state of suspended animation. For the creature, time ceases to flow and its condition becomes fixed. The creature does not grow older. Its body functions virtually cease, and no force or effect can harm it. This state persists until the magic is removed (such as by a successful dispel magic spell or a freedom spell).Mage’s Magnificent Mansion You conjure up an extradimensional dwelling that has a single entrance on the plane from which the spell was cast. The entry point looks like a faint shimmering in the air that is 4 feet wide and 8 feet high. Only those you designate may enter the mansion, and the portal is shut and made invisible behind you when you enter. You may open it again from your own side at will. Once observers have passed beyond the entrance, they are in a magnificent foyer with numerous chambers beyond. The atmosphere is clean, fresh, and warm. You can create any floor plan you desire to the limit of the spell’s effect. The place is furnished and contains sufficient foodstuffs to serve a nine-course banquet to a dozen people per caster level. A staff of near-transparent servants (as many as two per caster level), liveried and obedient, wait upon all who enter. The servants function as unseen servant spells except that they are visible and can go anywhere in the mansion. Since the place can be entered only through its special portal, outside conditions do not affect the mansion, nor do conditions inside it pass to the plane beyond.Q. Why do you heighten the mordenkainen's magnificent mansion to 9th level? A. Some people interpret wish as saying that it can duplicate specific spells (i.e., not just a fireball, but that fireball). This would allow someone to simply enter the mansion and cast freedom (because he would then be the caster). But wish cannot duplicate 9th level spells, so by heightening mordenkainen's magnificent mansion to 9th level, I avoid the argument. Q. Why do you use all of the mansion's area on solid earth straight down? A. Because some people interpret imprisonment's “it is entombed in a state of suspended animation in a small sphere far beneath the surface of the earth” as a requirement for there to be a large body of earth in order for the spell to function. Rather than argue it, I supply one. Q. That doesn't qualify as “far beneath the surface of the earth!” Imprisonment wont work! A. At caster level 11, it's 385 feet deep. At 17, it's 505 feet. I'd say that 400-500' underground qualifies as far. If thats not enough for you, get an even higher caster level. Besides, imprisonment doesn't have a depth requirement. That is a description of what the spell does, not a condition to be met. Further, “the surface of the earth” can be interpreted as planet earth too. In that case, the spell would even work in an absolute void, because the target would automatically be moved to the material plane. Q. Whats with that dispel magic + animate objects + imprisonment on your phylactery thing? A. Dispel magic temporarily suppresses the magic of your phylactery, so it no longer counts as a magic item. Animate objects turns nonmagical objects into creatures. Imprisonment entraps creatures you cast it on. Q. Why don't you just summon something to hold your phylactery and imprison that? A. Because some people say that imprisonment doesn't actually affect the target's items. Again, I avoid an argument by slightly altering the trick. Q. Aren't you trapped in stasis too if you are killed and reform within the sphere created by the imprisonment spell? A. No, I would not be in stasis, because it is the imprisonment spell (targeted on my phylactery) that does that, not the sphere. Q. But isn't your phylactery destroyed when you dismiss the mansion it's in? A. No, because imprisonment prevents all harm. Q. Why don't you just move the phylactery out of the mansion? A. Because imprisonment says “the subject remains there,” so I technically can't move it. Q. But what happens to the phylactery when the mansion it's in is dismissed? A. I don't know for sure, but I believe the most likely result is that it is ejected to outside the doorway. It doesn't really matter though, because temporal stasis says “no force or effect can harm it.” Q. Can't someone still find the phylactery? A. Maybe (see previous question), but you can't do anything to it. Read temporal stasis: “its condition becomes fixed” and “no force or effect can harm it.” Q. Doesn't the mordenkainen's magnificent mansion lead to the astral plane? You can just go to the appropriate spot on the astral plane to cast Imprisonment. A. It is not in the astral plane. The astral plane connects it to the other planes, but it is not actually in the astral plane. Q. No DM would allow this/What if the DM houserules something that prevents this? A. This is a theoretical exercise. A permissive DM and no houserules is assumed. Q. Doesn't the planeshifter trick work better? A. I don't have the book planeshifter is in, but I have seen some discussions about it. Both tricks seem to be barely RAW and definitely not RAI. But this trick is core, available at a lower level, and has a vastly lower opportunity cost. Q. Can't some things still kill you permanently? A. Yes, but this is not “how to get an invincible character,” this is “how to get an invincible phylactery.”
forsaken1111 05-28-07, 01:25 AM	I can see one possible way, and its a stretch... but then again so is the trick. You, as a level 11 NPC wizard, are hired to find and retrieve the lich's spell. We'll call this lich Balor64. We go from the assumption that you have no knowledge about Balor64 other than he's a lich. Cast Legend Lore - The question: "Tell me about Balor64 the lich." You get a somewhat vague description of Balor64 and what he's done. Using details provided, research the lich in various libraries. This is time consuming, but you'll eventually come up with more details about him. Cast Legend Lore - The question: "How did Balor64 the lich hide his phylactory?" Since you now know detailed information about him, you recieve a fairly descriptive story about hiding his phylactory in a mansion. Now you need to find the mansion. Cast Contact Other Plane - Assuming you make the intelligence check, you get 5 questions. You ask: 1. Was Balor64's phylactory imprisoned on the prime material plane? - No 2. Was it on an inner plane? - No 3. Was it on an outer plane? - No 4. Was it on a demiplane? - Yes 5. Was it an extradimensional space? - Yes You now know that it was an extradimensional space, and it was a mansion. Assuming you don't have it, its fairly easy to find out about the mage's magnificent mansion spell. At this point you know how the lich hid his phylactory. The next step is to find its current location. Its obviously not still in the mansion. Locate Object should work just fine, as temporal stasis does not prevent detection. You would then ask the PC's to go to that and find the creature in stasis and bring it back. Yes, this is the source of yet another adventure for the PC's. They'll be thrilled and rush off into certain doom. When/If they get back, you can proceed to the next step. And hey, if they die... they paid in advance. Now, you'd need a way to cast wish and you'll need a way to cast freedom. How you do it is unimportant, by scroll or luckblade or ring of three wishes. The cost would be on those who hired you anyway. Act like an annoying NPC and send the PC's out on some more quests to get money. They do that sorta thing. Wish can duplicate any 8th level or lower spell that is not from a prohibited school. So when you cast wish, choose to duplicate the exact mage's magnificent mansion spell cast by the lich Balor64 xxx years ago. This is important, as you are chosing to duplicate the exact spell he cast not cast that spell again. It will create the same extradimensional space, since you have chosen to duplicate the exact same spell that he cast. This is well within Wish's power, since it uses the word duplicate not copy. You then enter the mansion with the PC's and the creature in stasis. You're able to do this since you are considered the caster of the spell. Once inside, you cast freedom. You have fulfilled the "Must cast freedom in the same spot" requirement, and the creature animates. The PC's kill the creature (hopefully) and destroy the phylactory. So yes, its a long ordeal involving hundreds of thousands of gold and probably gaining the PC's 4-5 levels along the way... but it can be done. I think.
Psionx 05-28-07, 03:30 AM	Misinterpretation of what duplicate means in Wish is the problem. Think of it as emulating the spell. I could of course be wrong as thats just an interpretation on my part.
forsaken1111 05-28-07, 10:56 AM	Misinterpretation of what duplicate means in Wish is the problem. Think of it as emulating the spell. I could of course be wrong as thats just an interpretation on my part. I just figured that the entire dirty trick was a stretch of the RAW so I'd do the same to wish. :D
Elhros 05-28-07, 11:36 AM	Judging from the creator of this threads name I'd say the creature they'd fight WOULD be a Baelor... But a lich in contract with a Baelor is a bit strange. Maybe the Baelor is emo like those ****** Anne Rice vampires sleeping centuries off... ***** emo-vampires...grumble***... Lazy... If anyone needs me, I'll be in the angry Dome! ***Paces back and forth""" Ooo eee Ahhooo!!!
forsaken1111 05-28-07, 11:44 AM	Judging from the creator of this threads name I'd say the creature they'd fight WOULD be a Baelor... But a lich in contract with a Baelor is a bit strange. Maybe the Baelor is emo like those ****** Anne Rice vampires sleeping centuries off... ***** emo-vampires...grumble***... Lazy... If anyone needs me, I'll be in the angry Dome! ***Paces back and forth""" Ooo eee Ahhooo!!! You're very angry.
The_Mad_Linguist 05-28-07, 01:16 PM	How do you remove the creature from the mansion when nothing can effect it?
forsaken1111 05-28-07, 01:46 PM	How do you remove the creature from the mansion when nothing can effect it? The creature still physically exists and nothing in the inprisonment spell says they cannot be moved. Theoretically if you dug up an imprisoned creature on the prime material plane you'd be able to move it as well, though you could not affect it in any way with any spell/power/ability. Unless, of course, your DM has declared that psionics and magic do not interact and are completely separate. In which case, a psionic disintigrate will blast the phylactory into oblivion since the magical temporal stasis would not protect it. I'd also like to point out that nowhere in the description for Temporal Stasis or Imprisonment does it state that the creature cannot be looted, or that the spell extends its protection to items the creature is holding. This entire trick is based on the assumption that imprisonment/temporal stasis protects the creature's gear as well as itself. The creature is "entombed in a state of suspended animation in a small sphere far beneath the surface of the earth" but it doesn't say the sphere itself is unbreakable either, only that the creature is in suspended animation as per the temporal stasis spell.
balor64 05-28-07, 06:08 PM	I can see one possible way, and its a stretch... but then again so is the trick. You, as a level 11 NPC wizard, are hired to find and retrieve the lich's spell. We'll call this lich Balor64. We go from the assumption that you have no knowledge about Balor64 other than he's a lich. Cast Legend Lore - The question: "Tell me about Balor64 the lich." You get a somewhat vague description of Balor64 and what he's done. Using details provided, research the lich in various libraries. This is time consuming, but you'll eventually come up with more details about him. Cast Legend Lore - The question: "How did Balor64 the lich hide his phylactory?" Since you now know detailed information about him, you recieve a fairly descriptive story about hiding his phylactory in a mansion.Legend lore brings legends to your mind, not secrets. How would anyone have originally found out how you performed your trick (especially with variant 2)? It isn't a legend unless more than one person knows about it. Also, a minor nitpick: You don't ask questions with legend lore, it tells you legends about an important person, place, or thing of your choice. Now you need to find the mansion. Cast Contact Other Plane - Assuming you make the intelligence check, you get 5 questions. You ask: 1. Was Balor64's phylactory imprisoned on the prime material plane? - No 2. Was it on an inner plane? - No 3. Was it on an outer plane? - No 4. Was it on a demiplane? - Yes 5. Was it an extradimensional space? - YesYou only have an 88% chance at best of getting the correct answer from contact other plane. You now know that it was an extradimensional space, and it was a mansion. Assuming you don't have it, its fairly easy to find out about the mage's magnificent mansion spell. At this point you know how the lich hid his phylactory. The next step is to find its current location. Its obviously not still in the mansion. Locate Object should work just fine, as temporal stasis does not prevent detection. You would then ask the PC's to go to that and find the creature in stasis and bring it back. Yes, this is the source of yet another adventure for the PC's. They'll be thrilled and rush off into certain doom. When/If they get back, you can proceed to the next step. And hey, if they die... they paid in advance.If the lich used variant 2, you have to get through a mind blank too. Now, you'd need a way to cast wish and you'll need a way to cast freedom. How you do it is unimportant, by scroll or luckblade or ring of three wishes. The cost would be on those who hired you anyway. Act like an annoying NPC and send the PC's out on some more quests to get money. They do that sorta thing. Wish can duplicate any 8th level or lower spell that is not from a prohibited school. So when you cast wish, choose to duplicate the exact mage's magnificent mansion spell cast by the lich Balor64 xxx years ago. This is important, as you are chosing to duplicate the exact spell he cast not cast that spell again. It will create the same extradimensional space, since you have chosen to duplicate the exact same spell that he cast. This is well within Wish's power, since it uses the word duplicate not copy.Even assuming that you can duplicate a specific spell, that can be blocked simply by heightening the mansion to 9th level. You then enter the mansion with the PC's and the creature in stasis. You're able to do this since you are considered the caster of the spell. Once inside, you cast freedom. You have fulfilled the "Must cast freedom in the same spot" requirement, and the creature animates. The PC's kill the creature (hopefully) and destroy the phylactory.You would also have to find the location inside the mansion where the lich cast imprisonment. If the lich cast it halfway through a secret passage under the floor in the cellar, that's where you would have to cast freedom. So yes, its a long ordeal involving hundreds of thousands of gold and probably gaining the PC's 4-5 levels along the way... but it can be done. I think.Since your duplicate mansion would have the same entrance as the one the lich cast, it could involve much much more gold if the lich cast imprisonment inside a mansion inside a mansion inside a mansion (and so on...). You would have to wish each mansion back into existence individually. And how would you even know which mansion the trick was performed in? Unless, of course, your DM has declared that psionics and magic do not interact and are completely separate. In which case, a psionic disintigrate will blast the phylactory into oblivion since the magical temporal stasis would not protect it.What your DM houserules has nothing to do with this trick. Since this would (hopefully) not be attempted in an actual game, there is no DM involved. Besides, that is an exeptionally stupid houserule, heal could not heal damage dealt by an energy ball, and someone killed by psionics could only be revived by reality revision (which works by duplicating resurrection, which wouldn't work) or psionic revivify (which has to be cast within 1 round per ML). I'd also like to point out that nowhere in the description for Temporal Stasis or Imprisonment does it state that the creature cannot be looted, or that the spell extends its protection to items the creature is holding. This entire trick is based on the assumption that imprisonment/temporal stasis protects the creature's gear as well as itself. The creature is "entombed in a state of suspended animation in a small sphere far beneath the surface of the earth" but it doesn't say the sphere itself is unbreakable either, only that the creature is in suspended animation as per the temporal stasis spell.Plane shift doesn't specifically say that carried items are affected as well, but they are assumed to be. But if it's that much of a problem, cast dispel magic on your phylactery (to suppress it's magic, allowing animate objects to work) followed with animate objects on it (so it qualifies as a creature) and then cast imprisonment on your phylactery itself.
The_Mad_Linguist 05-28-07, 06:20 PM	[ Since your duplicate mansion would have the same entrance as the one the lich cast, it could involve much much more gold if the lich cast imprisonment inside a mansion inside a mansion inside a mansion (and so on...). You would have to wish each mansion back into existence individually. And how would you even know which mansion the trick was performed in? What about this? Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.
balor64 05-28-07, 07:43 PM	What about this?Okay... so its hazardous. Now quote me sometthing that says what happens when you cast mage's magnificent mansion inside the effects of another mage's magnificent mansion. You quoted that from another spell, and the only things I know of that list hazards with taking extradimensional spaces into existing ones are magic items which are not involved in this.
forsaken1111 05-28-07, 08:30 PM	Hey, you posted a silly trick that stretches the rules. I posted a response... I figured it was all in play anyway, since no sane DM would allow any of this to happen.
The_Mad_Linguist 05-28-07, 08:42 PM	Okay... so its hazardous. Now quote me sometthing that says what happens when you cast mage's magnificent mansion inside the effects of another mage's magnificent mansion. It invites DM fiat. I believe TG made a similar point about "Teleport Through Time" and Pun-Pun. Presumably, since it's hazardous, in case of any gray areas we are to err on the side of it being, well, hazardous. Also: "A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object"
Lokiyn 05-28-07, 10:45 PM	Upon completion of the work, the seed opens up into a miniscule spherical demiplane. I still contend that the best way to deal with the lich is to make the phylactory invulnerable rather than unfindable.
lifeblender 05-29-07, 12:48 AM	Have the imprisoned creature EAT the phylactory before casting Imprison. Now the phylactory cannot be looted off the creature once it has been dug up.
forsaken1111 05-29-07, 01:26 AM	Have the imprisoned creature EAT the phylactory before casting Imprison. Now the phylactory cannot be looted off the creature once it has been dug up. Just throw it into the mouth of the Terrasque and be done with it.
Lyinginbedmon 05-29-07, 06:13 AM	Just throw it into the mouth of the Terrasque and be done with it. Yes, of course, it will be very safe in there, what with all the digestive juices, pounding muscular contractions. I imagine it to be nice and cosy for you to re-appear as well, what with the body heat and all :whatsthis
forsaken1111 05-29-07, 09:38 AM	Yes, of course, it will be very safe in there, what with all the digestive juices, pounding muscular contractions. I imagine it to be nice and cosy for you to re-appear as well, what with the body heat and all :whatsthis Body heat? You're a lich. And where does it say you reform next to your phylactory? As to it surviving, make it out of adamantine or a material immune to acid damage.
Psionx 05-29-07, 11:26 AM	You really want to make your phylactery invulnerable? Polymorph any object it into an atropal, then have it take the permanent emanation: anti-magic field feat. That or find some other way around physical damage. Regeneration (Ex) Atropals take normal damage from good weapons or sentient weapons (or otherwise living weapons). Weapons are no longer sentient/living in an AMF, therefore absolutely nothing short of overcoming an AMF will destroy your stuff.
forsaken1111 05-29-07, 12:12 PM	You really want to make your phylactery invulnerable? Polymorph any object it into an atropal, then have it take the permanent emanation: anti-magic field feat. That or find some other way around physical damage. Regeneration (Ex) Atropals take normal damage from good weapons or sentient weapons (or otherwise living weapons). Weapons are no longer sentient/living in an AMF, therefore absolutely nothing short of overcoming an AMF will destroy your stuff. Uh, the instant it emits an antimagic field won't Polymorph Any Object be suppressed? And then the antimagic field would go away. It would rapidly flicker back and forth between phylactory and atropal, which gives some chance of damaging it.
Psionx 05-29-07, 02:00 PM	This is just awesome. Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. Also, I think if you make it permanent its a permanent change type thing. Still, thats just wrong that you can do that because it wasn't summoned which is just, well, like, awesome... I mean, come on, it's just not right...
forsaken1111 05-29-07, 02:46 PM	This is just awesome. Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. Also, I think if you make it permanent its a permanent change type thing. Still, thats just wrong that you can do that because it wasn't summoned which is just, well, like, awesome... I mean, come on, it's just not right... Are you arguing against the thing being affected by the antimagic field? A spell with permenant duration means the spell is in effect until dispelled. Thus it will work unless it is dispelled by some means, and is forever an active spell on a target. That means that if you PAO a cup into a cat, the instant it walks into an antimagic field it becomes a cup until the field goes away.
balor64 05-29-07, 03:22 PM	You really want to make your phylactery invulnerable? Polymorph any object it into an atropal, then have it take the permanent emanation: anti-magic field feat. That or find some other way around physical damage. Regeneration (Ex) Atropals take normal damage from good weapons or sentient weapons (or otherwise living weapons). Weapons are no longer sentient/living in an AMF, therefore absolutely nothing short of overcoming an AMF will destroy your stuff. You technically can't PAO objects into creatures, because objects don't have HD. PAO still has a HD cap of 15 HD. PAO does not grant extraordinary special qualities (such as regeneration). Your phylactery can't take permanent emanation (antimagic field), because it doesn't have 25 ranks in spellcraft and it can't cast antimagic field.
Lyinginbedmon 05-29-07, 07:11 PM	Body heat? You're a lich. And where does it say you reform next to your phylactory? As to it surviving, make it out of adamantine or a material immune to acid damage. The body heat part was added sarcasm.Once inside, the opponent takes 2d8+8 points of crushing damage plus 2d8+6 points of acid damage per round from the tarrasque’s digestive juices.Okay, assuming we somehow manage to find an object that is immune to acid damage that can still function as a phylactery, what the heck kind of object is immune to damage? Maybe we could encase it in riverine I guess, but then eventually it'll still get passed through the system and get left wherever it lands. And, I admit, there is nothing in written lore that states anything about where a Lich reforms after it's been killed. Therefore, the board opinion is that it reforms next to it's phylactery, as opposed to "anywhere it darn well pleases". This is the most logical and reasonable conclusion within the game rules.
Lokiyn 05-29-07, 07:50 PM	Basically if i remember the debates boiled down to three options Vampire style reformation, Like the coffin of a vampire a lich reforms next to his phylactory Phoenix stye, The Lich reforms where he was killed, with no movement Godmode, anywhere the Lich damn well pleases I tend to belive that since the text doesn't specifiy movement reformation at the point of destruction is slightly more valid than at the phylactory but i see no problem with reforming at the phylactory.
The_Mad_Linguist 05-29-07, 08:07 PM	Basically if i remember the debates boiled down to three options Vampire style reformation, Like the coffin of a vampire a lich reforms next to his phylactory Phoenix stye, The Lich reforms where he was killed, with no movement Godmode, anywhere the Lich damn well pleases I tend to belive that since the text doesn't specifiy movement reformation at the point of destruction is slightly more valid than at the phylactory but i see no problem with reforming at the phylactory. Seems like a good question to ask custserv.
Lyinginbedmon 05-29-07, 08:24 PM	I've never seen anything in literature that would suggest the second option, I've certainly never read about a Lich slowly inching towards the throne room of a nation by walking a few steps forward every time he gets destroyed.
The_Mad_Linguist 05-29-07, 09:51 PM	I've never seen anything in literature that would suggest the second option, I've certainly never read about a Lich slowly inching towards the throne room of a nation by walking a few steps forward every time he gets destroyed. Honestly, I think it's pretty obvious that it *ought* to be at the phylactery, but someone might disagree. If the first case were true, you could just install a powerful positive energy trap where the lich respawns, put a vault around it, and call it done.
forsaken1111 05-30-07, 01:37 AM	The body heat part was added sarcasm.Okay, assuming we somehow manage to find an object that is immune to acid damage that can still function as a phylactery, what the heck kind of object is immune to damage? Maybe we could encase it in riverine I guess, but then eventually it'll still get passed through the system and get left wherever it lands. I don't really think anything get's 'passed' through the terrasque, but if it does it will take an amazingly long time. The thing rampages for a few days and then sleeps for thousands of years assuming stupid adventurers don't wake it up. According to what you quoted, we need an object which can ignore/resist 2d8+8 acid damage and resist 2d8+6 damage per round forever. I'm thinking we need a box. The physical damage comes to, at most, 22 damage. Adamantium will ALMOST get us there... if we make it a +1 adamantium box that should boost the hardness enough to resist the physical damage. Now the acid damage comes to 24, so we'd probably have to pay for acid resistance 30. Assuming the box follows the same rules for armor enchanting, the +1 enchantment would run 1000gp plus the cost of an adamantium box which I'm unsure how to determine but am quite comfortable calling it 25,000 to get a nice ornate adamantine box with a badass lock. The 30 acid resistance would stack another 66,000gp on that so we're up to 92000gp for the terrasque-proof (by the rules anyway) box. Place phylactory in box and toss inside, watch those teeth! For extra goodness, make the inside of the box an extradimensional space and your WHOLE LICH's LAIR COULD BE IN THE TERRASQUE. Of course then you'd have to ward against planeshift, but man wouldn't that be an amusing surprise when they tried to exit?
FromTheShadows 06-02-07, 12:49 PM	I wonder if I should point out some possibly minor, annoying little bit of rules semantics that could upset this idea. Eh, what the hell. Target: Creature touched When you cast imprisonment and touch a creature, it is entombed in a state of suspended animation (see the temporal stasis spell) in a small sphere far beneath the surface of the earth. The subject remains there unless a freedom spell is cast at the locale where the imprisonment took place. Basically, the spell makes no mention, whatsoever, of the target creature's possessions or gear being imprisoned alongside it. I do know that the usual interpretation doesn't have the subject disappearing and leaving behind a pile of clothing and expensive metals, though. But it would bring a whole new level of meaning when the subject of a freedom spell pops up stark naked.
balor64 06-02-07, 06:48 PM	I wonder if I should point out some possibly minor, annoying little bit of rules semantics that could upset this idea. Eh, what the hell. Basically, the spell makes no mention, whatsoever, of the target creature's possessions or gear being imprisoned alongside it. I do know that the usual interpretation doesn't have the subject disappearing and leaving behind a pile of clothing and expensive metals, though. But it would bring a whole new level of meaning when the subject of a freedom spell pops up stark naked.That has already been pointed out and covered.I'd also like to point out that nowhere in the description for Temporal Stasis or Imprisonment does it state that the creature cannot be looted, or that the spell extends its protection to items the creature is holding. This entire trick is based on the assumption that imprisonment/temporal stasis protects the creature's gear as well as itself. The creature is "entombed in a state of suspended animation in a small sphere far beneath the surface of the earth" but it doesn't say the sphere itself is unbreakable either, only that the creature is in suspended animation as per the temporal stasis spell.Plane shift doesn't specifically say that carried items are affected as well, but they are assumed to be. But if it's that much of a problem, cast dispel magic on your phylactery (to suppress it's magic, allowing animate objects to work) followed with animate objects on it (so it qualifies as a creature) and then cast imprisonment on your phylactery itself.
Brastan 06-04-07, 12:46 AM	Gaining access to the correct Extra-dimensional of the Mansion isn't as hard as recreating it. Wish (as expensive as it is) can get you there with the Transport Travelers option. From any plane to any plane. Worded correctly it could even get you to the exact spot were Imprisonment was cast. This would work "regardless of local conditions", such as the space not existing. That or use Disjunction on the imprisoned creature. "Spells and spell-like effects are separated into their individual components." This means the stasis part of Imprisonment which can be dispelled. The creature is still Imprisoned but no longer in suspended animation.
Fgarber 06-04-07, 02:22 PM	Problem 1: I would think that when you cast mage's mansion, you access a mansion, rather than create the extradimensional place from scratch. That's not to say that wandering around the extradimensional planes, you can't find the mansion from the outside. Couldn't a plane shift spell, designed for the "magic mansion dimension" work? And if you rule that no, you destroy that extradimensional space when the spell ends, then you've just <a> destroyed everything in the extradimensional space (including the phylactery, Imprisonment or not) or <b> cut your Imprisoned Phylactery loose to float though extra-dimensional space. I'd also guess that a lich reforms on the same plane of existance as their phylactery: Your body could be destroyed, but you'd be trapped in your sealed McMansion until you found a way to Gate back to the Prime Material Plane. That said, the best way I'd go to make the phylactery "indestructable" is to make that the central piece of a complex piece of a magical item that brings health and contentment to the capital city. All that pesky paladin needs to do to perma-kill you (one lich) is plunge thousands of people into sickness and misery. -Fred
forsaken1111 06-04-07, 02:26 PM	And if you rule that no, you destroy that extradimensional space when the spell ends, then you've just <a> destroyed everything in the extradimensional space (including the phylactery, Imprisonment or not) or <b> cut your Imprisoned Phylactery loose to float though extra-dimensional space. I think you missed step 6 in his trick: "Depending on your interpretation, the creature may still be inside the mansion. If so, remove it from the mansion." So it wouldn't be destroyed... its not in the mansion. The entire point of the trick is that the only way to free an imprisoned creature is to cast freedom in THE SAME PLACE that imprisonment was cast. With the mansion destroyed, that place no longer exists.
Brastan 06-04-07, 02:58 PM	I still contend that Disjunction will break the suspended animation effect of Imprisonment. While the creature may still be Imprisoned (in side the small sphere) it will no longer be in suspended animation. This eliminates the main impediment to reaching and destroying the phylactery.
forsaken1111 06-04-07, 03:27 PM	So which would win.. Goblin in stasis via inprisonment spell, or Sphere of Destruction?
Brastan 06-04-07, 03:47 PM	You mean Sphere of Annihilation? The Goblin remains for several reasons. First as part of the suspended animation no effect may harm it, destruction is harm. Second it can't be moved as per Imprisonment. The second part is due to the line "the subject remains there unless a freedom spell is cast...." The 'there' is a small sphere beneath the earth. This same line prevents the Imprisoned creature from being moved or removed from it's imprisoned spot (which may very well be the Mansion). Attempting to move the sphere would move the creature, which must remain 'there' (beneath the earth) until a freedom spell is cast. If the Goblin were inside just Temporal Stasis it would be sucked inside, but not destroyed. It would be beyond reach, except for an Entropomancer of sufficient level.
forsaken1111 06-04-07, 04:20 PM	You mean Sphere of Annihilation? Yes that's what I meant. The Goblin remains for several reasons. First as part of the suspended animation no effect may harm it, destruction is harm. Second it can't be moved as per Imprisonment. The suspended animation affect says it protects from any spell or effect, but does that include artifact/epic level effects? By that logic, suspended animation/imprisonment could stop a god. The second part is due to the line "the subject remains there unless a freedom spell is cast...." The 'there' is a small sphere beneath the earth. This same line prevents the Imprisoned creature from being moved or removed from it's imprisoned spot (which may very well be the Mansion). Attempting to move the sphere would move the creature, which must remain 'there' (beneath the earth) until a freedom spell is cast. If the Goblin were inside just Temporal Stasis is would be sucked inside, but not destroyed. It would be beyond reach, except for an Entropomancer of sufficient level. I didn't understand this part... sucked inside where? It disintigrates things it touches, its not some extraplanar portal. People often liken it to a black hole, but black holes don't "suck things in" either, they simply crush them with gravity. There is not other side to be sucked to.
The_Mad_Linguist 06-04-07, 04:32 PM	That said, the best way I'd go to make the phylactery "indestructable" is to make that the central piece of a complex piece of a magical item that brings health and contentment to the capital city. All that pesky paladin needs to do to perma-kill you (one lich) is plunge thousands of people into sickness and misery. -Fred The book of Latin Mangling says you can't make a phylactery into another magic item.
forsaken1111 06-04-07, 04:34 PM	The book of Latin Mangling says you can't make a phylactery into another magic item. So physically stick it in the center. Its aura will be disguised as part of the overall magic item.
Brastan 06-04-07, 04:57 PM	In the case of the Sphere read the entry. "Any matter that comes in contact with a sphere is instantly sucked into the void, gone, and utterly destroyed." Even if it were a black hole the Goblin would still not be crushed in Temporal Status, that would be harmful. My point with Imprisonment and the Sphere is that the creature could not be sucked into the void. It must remain in place until a freedom spell is cast. Being sucked inside the void means it had to move, which is not remaining in place. Since it must remain it place, it can't move, and is not sucked into the void. This also brings back up the point that the Imprisoned creature cannot be removed from the Mansions, if that is the interpretation of where it the creature ends up.
Lyinginbedmon 06-04-07, 05:47 PM	So physically stick it in the center. Its aura will be disguised as part of the overall magic item. An NPC good lich did something similar. He created his own race of undead, whose afterlife was basically a demiplane. At the heart of the demiplane was an object that allowed a casting of Genesis. The object was basically a frame or casing, inside was the lich's phylactery. Because it was a holy object with limited travel, destroying the phylactery meant the wrath of an entire race. For safety, he splintered it anyway :P
forsaken1111 06-04-07, 06:03 PM	An NPC good lich did something similar. He created his own race of undead, whose afterlife was basically a demiplane. At the heart of the demiplane was an object that allowed a casting of Genesis. The object was basically a frame or casing, inside was the lich's phylactery. Because it was a holy object with limited travel, destroying the phylactery meant the wrath of an entire race. For safety, he splintered it anyway :P Yeah, you could use the splinter spell and use every suggestion on these boards on a different piece. Man someone would have a hell of a time killing you..
balor64 06-04-07, 10:47 PM	Gaining access to the correct Extra-dimensional of the Mansion isn't as hard as recreating it. Wish (as expensive as it is) can get you there with the Transport Travelers option. From any plane to any plane. Worded correctly it could even get you to the exact spot were Imprisonment was cast. This would work "regardless of local conditions", such as the space not existing.Please explain to me how a place not existing is a "local condition". That or use Disjunction on the imprisoned creature. "Spells and spell-like effects are separated into their individual components." This means the stasis part of Imprisonment which can be dispelled. The creature is still Imprisoned but no longer in suspended animation.Imprisonment does not contain a temporal stasis spell. It places the target in suspended animation and references temporal stasis for an explanation of what that means. Problem 1: I would think that when you cast mage's mansion, you access a mansion, rather than create the extradimensional place from scratch. That's not to say that wandering around the extradimensional planes, you can't find the mansion from the outside. Couldn't a plane shift spell, designed for the "magic mansion dimension" work?Well, let's see... Mage’s magnificent mansion is a conjuration (creation) spell and says "you conjure up an extradimensional dwelling". I would say that you create your own mansion. And no, a plane shift spell will not get you into the mansion. Why not? Because "only those you designate may enter the mansion" and "the place can be entered only through its special portal". And if you rule that no, you destroy that extradimensional space when the spell ends, then you've just <a> destroyed everything in the extradimensional space (including the phylactery, Imprisonment or not) or <b> cut your Imprisoned Phylactery loose to float though extra-dimensional space.Nothing says what happens to something inside a destroyed plane, but temporal stasis specifically says that "no force or effect can harm it". Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with <b> happening. I'd also guess that a lich reforms on the same plane of existance as their phylactery: Your body could be destroyed, but you'd be trapped in your sealed McMansion until you found a way to Gate back to the Prime Material Plane.First you say that a simple plane shift can get you inside the mansion, then you say that the lich would be trapped in the mansion without gate? It's one way or the other, you can't say both. Besides, the only restrictions are on entering the mansion. There are none for exiting. So which would win.. Goblin in stasis via inprisonment spell, or Sphere of Destruction?The sphere says "Any matter that comes in contact with a sphere is instantly sucked into the void, gone, and utterly destroyed", but temporal stasis says "no force or effect can harm it". Where in description of the sphere does it give any indication that it will pierce such a defense (such as the annulus' "regardless of any protection it may possess" line)? Without one, I don't see how it's any different from say, disintegrating it.
forsaken1111 06-04-07, 11:18 PM	The sphere says "Any matter that comes in contact with a sphere is instantly sucked into the void, gone, and utterly destroyed", but temporal stasis says "no force or effect can harm it". Where in description of the sphere does it give any indication that it will pierce such a defense (such as the annulus' "regardless of any protection it may possess" line)? Without one, I don't see how it's any different from say, disintegrating it. I'm only unsure because usually artifacts ignore non-epic spells. You can't suppress an artifact via dispel magic, for instance, nor disintigrate one.
Brastan 06-05-07, 01:20 PM	First on Disjunction. Since suspended animation is a part of Imprisonment and disjunction separates spell effects into their parts and dispels those. Under the Temporal Status (the reference) we find that "This state[of suspended animation] persists until the magic is removed (such as by a successful dispel magic spell or a freedom spell)." Disjunction isn't dispelling a contained Temporal Stasis, it is dispelling the suspended animation as describe in the last line of the reference for it. I'll conceded the lack of location not being a local condition, since there are no conditions in a space that no longer exists. However if there is some kind of "super" extra-dimensional space that continues to exist after the mansion goes, a space the creature or Phylactery will "float" through. Then you would still be able to transit there, to the spot were mansion was and thus the locale were Imprisonment was cast. However you still can't move the creature if it becomes Imprisoned inside the extra-dimensional space of the mansion.
forsaken1111 06-05-07, 01:24 PM	So his phylactory and creature would essentially be drifting in astral space, invulnerable. If one found it and cast Disjunction, it might remove temporal stasis. If one then cast a second disjunction, it could theoretically remove the magic upon the phylactory even if its inside the bubble, as its no longer protected by temporal stasis. Right?
Brastan 06-05-07, 01:37 PM	Not temporal status, the suspended animation part of Imprisonment. Temporal status is only the reference. Aside from that, yes that is what I'm saying. However that also assumes that the said the Creature is dumped into the Astral plane when the Mansion is dismissed. If you consider the Mansion a space on it's own Demi-plane, once it's gone so is everything else. Which is a bit paradoxical since the Imprisoned creature must remain in place and can't be harmed.
forsaken1111 06-05-07, 01:48 PM	Not temporal status, the suspended animation part of Imprisonment. Temporal status is only the reference. Aside from that, yes that is what I'm saying. However that also assumes that the said the Creature is dumped into the Astral plane when the Mansion is dismissed. If you consider the Mansion a space on it's own Demi-plane, once it's gone so is everything else. Which is a bit paradoxical since the Imprisoned creature must remain in place and can't be harmed. If I were the DM, in the absence of any precedent I'd consider the spell levels of the effects involved and determine it that way. I would not allow a 7th level spell to trump a 9th level spell. If the 9th level spell (imprisonment) says that the creature cannot be destroyed or affected in any way, then I'd not be keen on allowing a fairly common 7th level spell to bypass that protection. Since most extradimensional spaces are demiplanes somewhere in the astral plane, I would rule that it appears in that exact spot in the astral plane when the demiplane dissipates, and that anyone who travels to that spot could also cast freedom to undo it. But anyway, that's just my own opinion. Its fun to argue about things that will never happen in a sane game. :D
Lyinginbedmon 06-05-07, 03:35 PM	Don't be so sure...
The_Mad_Linguist 06-05-07, 05:50 PM	According to the SRD, all extradimensional spaces are demiplanes.
Brastan 06-05-07, 07:01 PM	However that does not mean they are on the Astral Plane or that when they vanish the non-conjured stuff in there is dumped, or has place, in the Astral Plane.
balor64 06-05-07, 09:44 PM	First on Disjunction. Since suspended animation is a part of Imprisonment and disjunction separates spell effects into their parts and dispels those. Under the Temporal Status (the reference) we find that "This state[of suspended animation] persists until the magic is removed (such as by a successful dispel magic spell or a freedom spell)." Disjunction isn't dispelling a contained Temporal Stasis, it is dispelling the suspended animation as describe in the last line of the reference for it.Mage's disjuction says that it ends the effect "as a dispel magic spell does". Dispel magic does not end the effect of an instantaneous spell like imprisonment. If you can say that imprisonment inherits "this state persists until the magic is removed" from temporal stasis, then I can say that mage's disjuction inherits "note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect." from dispel magic. I'll conceded the lack of location not being a local condition, since there are no conditions in a space that no longer exists. However if there is some kind of "super" extra-dimensional space that continues to exist after the mansion goes, a space the creature or Phylactery will "float" through. Then you would still be able to transit there, to the spot were mansion was and thus the locale were Imprisonment was cast.But there is nothing that supports the existence of a "super extra-dimensional space". And how do you know that you would be able to transit to one? However you still can't move the creature if it becomes Imprisoned inside the extra-dimensional space of the mansion.Is there a reason that I need to? I'm only unsure because usually artifacts ignore non-epic spells. You can't suppress an artifact via dispel magic, for instance, nor disintigrate one.They don't ignore non-epic spells. They might be unaffected by them, but that's different. Your version would lead to things like mage armor being useless as protection against a hammer of thunderbolts. So his phylactory and creature would essentially be drifting in astral space, invulnerable. If one found it and cast Disjunction, it might remove temporal stasis. If one then cast a second disjunction, it could theoretically remove the magic upon the phylactory even if its inside the bubble, as its no longer protected by temporal stasis. Right?Even assuming that you can remove the suspended animation part with mage's disjunction, a second one to remove the magic of the phylactery would be useless. A phylactery must be "found and destroyed" to prevent the reformation of the lich. Disenchanting it would not help. Though you could just as easily simply destroy it. Since most extradimensional spaces are demiplanes somewhere in the astral plane, I would rule that it appears in that exact spot in the astral plane when the demiplane dissipates, and that anyone who travels to that spot could also cast freedom to undo it.A demiplane is not in the astral plane. The astal plane connects it to the other planes, but it is not in the astral plane.
Brastan 06-06-07, 04:34 AM	Removing the creature is part of the step 6 you gave. If any interpretation Imprisoned creature inside the space of the Mansion then you have to deal with the Mansion no longer existing. The plane is doesn't exist but the creature can't be moved from it, a paradox. Sure, Disjunction doesn't work on instantaneous spells. That doesn't matter as I never said Disjunction was ending Imprisonment. The suspend animation component can still be end by Dispel Magic, through last sentience of it's inherited description. Disjunction works on that component. The other components of Imprisonment remain as they are instantaneous(and have no opening like suspend animation) so Disjunction can't dispel them.
Lyinginbedmon 06-06-07, 12:02 PM	I'd believe that if it weren't explicitly described as a single spell effect (That is, the suspended animation is a functioning part of Imprisonment, not part of another spell, such as an Enlarge Person from Contingency)
balor64 06-06-07, 03:53 PM	Removing the creature is part of the step 6 you gave. If any interpretation Imprisoned creature inside the space of the Mansion then you have to deal with the Mansion no longer existing. The plane is doesn't exist but the creature can't be moved from it, a paradox.Solution: Cast freedom at the locale where the imprisonment took place, before dismissing the mansion, but not on the creature holding your phylactery. Imprisonment says "The subject remains there unless a freedom spell is cast at the locale where the imprisonment took place." It never says that the freedom spell has to be cast on the subject. Sure, Disjunction doesn't work on instantaneous spells. That doesn't matter as I never said Disjunction was ending Imprisonment. The suspend animation component can still be end by Dispel Magic, through last sentience of it's inherited description. Disjunction works on that component. The other components of Imprisonment remain as they are instantaneous(and have no opening like suspend animation) so Disjunction can't dispel them.Mage's Disjunction Area: All magical effects and magic items within a 40-ft.-radius burst All magical effects and magic items within the radius of the spell, except for those that you carry or touch, are disjoined.Imprisonment is not a magical effect thanks to its instantaneous duration. You can't even target the spell in the first place.
Khaim 08-15-07, 10:24 AM	Solution: Cast freedom at the locale where the imprisonment took place, before dismissing the mansion, but not on the creature holding your phylactery. Imprisonment says "The subject remains there unless a freedom spell is cast at the locale where the imprisonment took place." It never says that the freedom spell has to be cast on the subject. Okay, this is just getting ridiculous. Yes, we tend to follow RAW here over houserules and such, but that doesn't mean we act like ****-retentive lawyers! If you cast Freedom on the spot where you cast Imprisonment, it will free the creature, because that's what it does. Trying to argue otherwise is like trying to argue about the meaning of "is"; sure, you can do it, but no one's really going to pay attention. On top of that, Imprisonment says "the subject remains there", meaning the spell keeps it there. So it is immovable in addition to being invincible, and you can't take it out of the pocket dimension (however you create one). There are no unanswerable spells. Anything you can do can be countered. Of course, you can still set up an amazing array of defenses and contingencies and so forth, but given enough time someone will get through. Then again, you're immortal; why don't you spend a little time protecting yourself?
heffroncm 08-16-07, 12:39 AM	I wonder if I should point out some possibly minor, annoying little bit of rules semantics that could upset this idea. Eh, what the hell. Basically, the spell makes no mention, whatsoever, of the target creature's possessions or gear being imprisoned alongside it. I do know that the usual interpretation doesn't have the subject disappearing and leaving behind a pile of clothing and expensive metals, though. But it would bring a whole new level of meaning when the subject of a freedom spell pops up stark naked. It is interesting you mention this. My group has always ruled that when Imprisoned, you leave behind your gear. This was first decided when a player questioned the ruling that the BBEG who rolled a Nat 1 took all his hundreds of thousands of spiffy magic items with him.
Nidair 08-20-07, 12:45 PM	If you can get an Arcane Mark on the phylactery, you can just teleport it to you with Drawmij's Instant Summons, as the item is not in anyone's posession. Maybe an Eye of Power can help?
balor64 08-23-07, 02:47 PM	Okay, this is just getting ridiculous. Yes, we tend to follow RAW here over houserules and such, but that doesn't mean we act like ****-retentive lawyers! If you cast Freedom on the spot where you cast Imprisonment, it will free the creature, because that's what it does. Trying to argue otherwise is like trying to argue about the meaning of "is"; sure, you can do it, but no one's really going to pay attention.Going by what you just said, if two creatures are imprisoned from the same spot, a single freedom spell will free both of them. Obviously, that is not what the spell does. You have to target the creature, or freedom does not free it. You obviously disagree that casting freedom in the right place but not on the creature will allow the creature to be moved without ending imprisonment. Well I disagree (with just as much ground) that imprisonment should prevent the creature from being moved in the first place. I realize that the rules are against me on that matter however, so I find workarounds and such. On top of that, Imprisonment says "the subject remains there", meaning the spell keeps it there. So it is immovable in addition to being invincible, and you can't take it out of the pocket dimension (however you create one).Then don't remove it from the mansion. Just destroy the mansion. The spell can't keep it there if "there" no longer exists. So what happens? A paradox? I think not. Does a chill touch spell still deal HP damage to someone who is immune to strength damage? Yes. Does righteous might still grant it's other bonuses if it fails to increase your size? Yes. Does imprisonment still make it's target invincible if it cannot keep the target at it's current location? Yes. The question still remains however, about where the phylactery goes if the plane it's on is destroyed. I believe that the most likely result is that it is ejected safely from the mansion to the place where the entrance is. It doesn't really matter where the phylactery goes though, because the imprisonment spell keeps it safe, so it cannot be damaged. There are no unanswerable spells. Anything you can do can be countered. Of course, you can still set up an amazing array of defenses and contingencies and so forth, but given enough time someone will get through. Then again, you're immortal; why don't you spend a little time protecting yourself?Actually, there are things that cannot be undone. If a first level person is resurrected, they lose 2 points of constitution, and those cannot be recovered. There are items (though not core) that can permanently drain HP. These cannot be recovered either. And finally, You cannot bring someone who died of old age back to life. If these things cannot be undone, then why can there not be others?
Turel 09-05-07, 05:05 PM	Balor64, you are one of those prick DM's that railroad the crap out of campaigns. You posted here, dont act like such a jerk when all these guys are doing is trying to "play-test" your scenario. anywho: one "freedom" would free 100 "imprisoned" critters, but you will Rule 0 it. what happens when you put a extra dimensional space in a extra dimensional space? on nevermind... Rule 0 your way out of that one My point is, if you want to make something, just freaking make it, dont dance around rules that you know you are going to ignore (for the sake of the campaign im sure).
The_Mad_Linguist 09-05-07, 06:12 PM	Actually, there are things that cannot be undone. If a first level person is resurrected, they lose 2 points of constitution, and those cannot be recovered. There are items (though not core) that can permanently drain HP. These cannot be recovered either. And finally, You cannot bring someone who died of old age back to life. If these things cannot be undone, then why can there not be others? Actually, a sarrukh can fix the first two cases, and time travel trickery can fix the last.
balor64 09-06-07, 10:56 PM	Balor64, you are one of those prick DM's that railroad the crap out of campaigns. You posted here, dont act like such a jerk when all these guys are doing is trying to "play-test" your scenario.I apologize if I was acting like a jerk, that was not my intention. anywho: one "freedom" would free 100 "imprisoned" critters, but you will Rule 0 it.Freedom says "target: one creature." How could this be read so as to allow 100 creatures to be freed with a single cast (without metamagic anyway)? And why would it require Rule 0 to say that a single target spell only has its effect on one creature at a time? what happens when you put a extra dimensional space in a extra dimensional space? on nevermind... Rule 0 your way out of that oneI didn't put one extradimensional space inside another. I did mention the possibility of doing so, but people argued that it should be avoided because the rules were vague, so I dropped it. My point is, if you want to make something, just freaking make it, dont dance around rules that you know you are going to ignore (for the sake of the campaign im sure).While I do avoid rules that would prevent this from working, I do so by altering the trick so that the rule either doesn't come into play or doesn't stop the trick. I don't simply say "the trick works anyway" unless it actually does. I also do not ignore rules (or at least not intentionally) that would prevent this trick from working. And where does a campaign fit into this? This is a theoretical trick, and has no place in a campaign. I would never use this or anything like it in any reasonable campaign, my own or someone else's. Actually, a sarrukh can fix the first two cases, and time travel trickery can fix the last.Well, if loopholes can be used to undo an irreversible event, then they should also be able to create such an event in the first place.
Euclid 09-11-07, 10:03 PM	Doesn't the lich reform at the Phylactery's location? How do you get out?
balor64 09-11-07, 10:49 PM	Out of what? Once you finish the trick, the phylactery isn't in anything.
Senevri 09-13-07, 03:18 PM	So, the lich reforms nowhere? Joy. Let's hope he had Spell Mastery: Plane Shift...
lostone 09-14-07, 09:02 AM	So, the lich reforms nowhere? Joy. Let's hope he had Spell Mastery: Plane Shift... Broken logic. He can't reform nowhere, he has to reform somewhere. Since the location is unspecified, he gets to pick where. :P (that's a joke)
thinkhard 10-07-07, 12:50 AM	Fear a hunter of the dead and his true death ability. Phylactery or no, you're whiped. Assuming this is epic, a HotD with great smite can whipe a lich in one blow, and he'll NEVER come back.
forsaken1111 10-07-07, 02:23 AM	Hell, if we're assuming epic I'll just create an epic spell called Truedeath which lays any undead of less than 40 hitdice to rest permenantly, no save, by severing the tie with the negative energy plane. A Greater Truedeath spell could do 60 hitdice. Once you get epic, the game gets very... creative.
CrimsonDeath 10-07-07, 03:48 PM	Once you get epic, the game gets very... creative. For spellcasters.
forsaken1111 10-07-07, 08:05 PM	My DM allows epic stances/maneuvers, epic powers, and epic invocations. Besides, Epic feats make it plenty interesting all by themselves.
balor64 10-07-07, 09:08 PM	Fear a hunter of the dead and his true death ability. Phylactery or no, you're whiped. Assuming this is epic, a HotD with great smite can whipe a lich in one blow, and he'll NEVER come back.I don't know what this "great smite" that lets you auto-kill undead is, but I doubt you could land it on an epic wizard so paranoid he became a lich and used this trick. Not only that, but HotD only evens the playing field - the lich can kill him just as dead as he can now kill it. Besides, the point of this trick is to make the phylactery invincible, not the lich. On another note, I just updated the OP.
Sir_Chivalry 10-07-07, 11:54 PM	Um, I don't know if this has been said, but I'm pretty sure you reform NEXT to your phylactery. How does one reform next to a non-existant object?
CrimsonDeath 10-08-07, 12:24 AM	My DM allows epic stances/maneuvers, epic powers, and epic invocations. Besides, Epic feats make it plenty interesting all by themselves. I'd like to see his system for generating epic stances and maneuvers. I'd been considering devising something, but I wasn't sure there was a sufficient sample size to generate a coherent system. Um, I don't know if this has been said, but I'm pretty sure you reform NEXT to your phylactery. How does one reform next to a non-existant object? In a nonexistant location, no less.
balor64 10-08-07, 01:31 PM	Um, I don't know if this has been said, but I'm pretty sure you reform NEXT to your phylactery. How does one reform next to a non-existant object?In a nonexistant location, no less.First, the MM doesn't actually say where you reform, but the generally accepted answer is "at the phylactery." Next, the phylactery does exist, because imprisonment prevents all harm, so it can't be destroyed. And finally, it can't be in a nonexistant location, it has to be somewhere. But the PHB never says what happens to someone in a mordenkainens magnificent mansion when the spell ends, so there is no way to find out where the phylactery is. Wherever it is though, you should be no more than a plane shift and/or a teleport away from returning to wherever you need to be.
Sir_Chivalry 10-08-07, 06:49 PM	Which raises the question; can you plane shift out of (or into) a non-existant space? Is there even space to exist in this space?
CrimsonDeath 10-08-07, 08:04 PM	First, the MM doesn't actually say where you reform, but the generally accepted answer is "at the phylactery." Next, the phylactery does exist, because imprisonment prevents all harm, so it can't be destroyed. And finally, it can't be in a nonexistant location, it has to be somewhere. But the PHB never says what happens to someone in a mordenkainens magnificent mansion when the spell ends, so there is no way to find out where the phylactery is. Wherever it is though, you should be no more than a plane shift and/or a teleport away from returning to wherever you need to be. Would you be able to Plane Shift or Teleport out of the place that Imprisonment stashes things, or would you need Freedom to get out? Also, wouldn't an enemy be able to find the appropriate place to cast Freedom to get your phylactery by casting Miracle or Wish? I forgot... What creature is holding your phylactery? I think it might be a good idea to cast Animate Objects, hand your phylactery to one of your objects, and then cast Imprisonment on it. After the duration of Animate Objects runs out, it's no longer a creature, and therefor isn't a valid target for Freedom.
balor64 10-08-07, 08:55 PM	Which raises the question; can you plane shift out of (or into) a non-existant space? Is there even space to exist in this space?A nonexistant space would not qualify as a plane, so you couldn't plane shift to it. However, there seems to be no restriction about leaving from something other than a plane, so you should be able to leave one. But I don't think anything could normally exist in a nonexistant space anyway. Would you be able to Plane Shift or Teleport out of the place that Imprisonment stashes things, or would you need Freedom to get out?Imprisonment puts things "far beneath the surface of the earth," so a teleport would be enough. Also, the freedom spell would have to be cast "at the locale where the imprisonment took place," not where the target currently is. Also, wouldn't an enemy be able to find the appropriate place to cast Freedom to get your phylactery by casting Miracle or Wish?With a normal use of imprisonment, yes. However, the whole point of this trick is to destroy the appropriate place to cast freedom. I forgot... What creature is holding your phylactery?In the current version of this trick, imprisonment is cast directly on the phylactery after dispel magic and animate objects. I think it might be a good idea to cast Animate Objects, hand your phylactery to one of your objects, and then cast Imprisonment on it. After the duration of Animate Objects runs out, it's no longer a creature, and therefor isn't a valid target for Freedom.Well, that is a good idea, but it unfortunately wouldn't work. Temporal stasis says "For the creature, time ceases to flow and its condition becomes fixed," so animate objects would not expire and could not be dispelled.
Ruduen 10-09-07, 05:26 PM	At what point does the Phylarchy become a creature? Seeing as Imprisonment only works against creatures, and an animated object doesn't qualify as a creature... Also, the wording of Mansion says, "You conjure up an extradimensional dwelling that has a single entrance on the plane from which the spell was cast." You never actually create or destroy the plane, just an entrance. Theoretically, it's still possible to use other methods in order to find that space. Or am I forgetting something obvious?
lostone 10-09-07, 05:33 PM	At what point does the Phylarchy become a creature? Seeing as Imprisonment only works against creatures, and an animated object doesn't qualify as a creature... So give it to a level 1 kobold that isn't Pun-pun and imprison the kobold. Also, the wording of Mansion says, "You conjure up an extradimensional dwelling that has a single entrance on the plane from which the spell was cast." You never actually create or destroy the plane, just an entrance. Theoretically, it's still possible to use other methods in order to find that space. I read it differently: You conjure up an extradimensional dwelling, that has a single entrance, on the plane from which the spell was cast. Basically, you conjure up an extradimensional dwelling on the plane where the spell is cast. The dwelling has a single entrance. I think they just forgot the commas or could have worded it better. Also, since the extradimensional dwelling is conjured, it disappears after the spell ends. So it could be said that the place you need to cast freedom no longer exists, anywhere.
forsaken1111 10-09-07, 05:46 PM	Or it could be that all these loose mansions are hanging out at the mansion plane, *****ing about humans living in them. It all depends on your DM, which is why this thread is utterly pointless. I'm of the opinion that when the mansion ceases to exist, so does your phylactory. The imprisonment spell protects the subject from harm, not from planar paradox. Ceasing to exist isn't a harmful effect, it simply... isn't there any more. The lich would die good and dead, and stay that way.
CrimsonDeath 10-09-07, 06:15 PM	an animated object doesn't qualify as a creature Oh, really? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm)
balor64 10-10-07, 04:46 PM	At what point does the Phylarchy become a creature? Seeing as Imprisonment only works against creatures, and an animated object doesn't qualify as a creature...Animated objects come in all sizes, shapes, and colors. They owe their existence as creatures to spells such as animate objects or similar supernatural abilities.Also, the wording of Mansion says, "You conjure up an extradimensional dwelling that has a single entrance on the plane from which the spell was cast." You never actually create or destroy the plane, just an entrance. Theoretically, it's still possible to use other methods in order to find that space. Or am I forgetting something obvious?"You conjure up an extradimensional dwelling that has a single entrance on the plane from which the spell was cast." You create an extradimensional dwelling, and it has a single entrance. Seems simple enough to me. Or it could be that all these loose mansions are hanging out at the mansion plane, *****ing about humans living in them. It all depends on your DM, which is why this thread is utterly pointless.Since there is nothing written in any D&D book about a "mansion plane," we have to assume that such a thing does not exist. I'm of the opinion that when the mansion ceases to exist, so does your phylactory. The imprisonment spell protects the subject from harm, not from planar paradox. Ceasing to exist isn't a harmful effect, it simply... isn't there any more. The lich would die good and dead, and stay that way.Well I think that mordenkainen's magnificent mansion does not screw over anyone inside it when it ends, and it simply drops them outside the entrance. The description of the lich doesn't say where the lich reforms, so we decide what the most reasonable outcome is. We do not say "the lich reforms nowhere," we say "the lich reforms at its phylactery." Similarly, this gap in the rules should be filled with common sense, not ridiculous "solutions."
CrimsonDeath 10-10-07, 05:54 PM	Well I think that mordenkainen's magnificent mansion does not screw over anyone inside it when it ends, and it simply drops them outside the entrance. As I recall, most "extradimensional" spaces exist in one of the transitive planes, usually the Astral and sometimes the Plane of Shadow. Hmm... In this case it's possible that anything stashed in a Magnificent Mansion at the time that the Mansion disappears is simply lost somewhere on the Astral Plane...
Zaenith 10-11-07, 01:13 PM	As far as gameplay goes, it'd end up being stuck inside an extradimensional air-bubble, like a bag of holding with no hole. "... wishing for a staff of the magi might get you instantly transported to the presence of the staff's owner." Implying that you're transported to the location of such, not that it's summoned right to you. If "Phylactery of Balor64" is wished for, the DM might get some kinky idea to make the character a lich, and take it away from Balor 64. Otherwise you'd find yourself inside a bag of holding with no exit, and a phylactery trapped in null-time, which I believe an anti-magic field could take care of, even if freedom couldn't target it. All you've got to do then is take the phylactery, planeshift somewhere you can destroy it (unless you're just that pimp of a wizard that can get past 20+ hardness inside of an antimagic field.)
balor64 10-11-07, 10:47 PM	As far as gameplay goes, it'd end up being stuck inside an extradimensional air-bubble, like a bag of holding with no hole.Which is just your opinion, not to imply that there is something wrong with it. "... wishing for a staff of the magi might get you instantly transported to the presence of the staff's owner." Implying that you're transported to the location of such, not that it's summoned right to you. If "Phylactery of Balor64" is wished for, the DM might get some kinky idea to make the character a lich, and take it away from Balor 64.Huh? The example you gave would imply that you are transported to the phylactery, not the phylactery becomes yours. Otherwise you'd find yourself inside a bag of holding with no exit, and a phylactery trapped in null-time, which I believe an anti-magic field could take care of, even if freedom couldn't target it.Imprisonment is duration: instantaneous, and is thus no more affected by antimagic field than cure light wounds is. All you've got to do then is take the phylactery, planeshift somewhere you can destroy it (unless you're just that pimp of a wizard that can get past 20+ hardness inside of an antimagic field.)Umm, how exactly do you plan to plane shift something in an antimagic field? Besides, you can bypass 20 hardness with an adamantine weapon.
Zaenith 10-12-07, 04:26 AM	Which is just your opinion, not to imply that there is something wrong with it. The only logical solution Huh? The example you gave would imply that you are transported to the phylactery, not the phylactery becomes yours. Of course it wouldn't, but Wish/Miracle is malleable to the DM's thoughts to such effect, I'm just saying that wishing for the phylactery would have another possible miswish. Imprisonment is duration: instantaneous, and is thus no more affected by antimagic field than cure light wounds is. One way or another, it's a 9th level spell to get it free. Umm, how exactly do you plan to plane shift something in an antimagic field? Besides, you can bypass 20 hardness with an adamantine weapon. By... dismissing the antimagic field after you have the object?
balor64 10-12-07, 07:02 PM	The only logical solutionAnd how do you figure that? Of course it wouldn't, but Wish/Miracle is malleable to the DM's thoughts to such effect, I'm just saying that wishing for the phylactery would have another possible miswish.This is theoretical, so it doesn't matter what a DM decides. Besides, spending 5,000 XP to steal something worth 120,000 G.P., 4,800 XP, and 120 days from an enemy is way overpowered. Seriously, who would spend 120,000 G.P. and 120 days, if you can instead spend an extra 200 XP? One way or another, it's a 9th level spell to get it free.Only if you can get to a place that doesn't exist or bribe the (hypothetical) DM. By... dismissing the antimagic field after you have the object?This is weirder and weirder. You originally said "...a phylactery trapped in null-time, which I believe an anti-magic field could take care of, even if freedom couldn't target it. All you've got to do then is take the phylactery, planeshift somewhere..." So if freedom failed, your plan was to remove imprisonment with antimagic field, and then plane shift it somewhere else. Even if antimagic field did remove imprisonment, it would only work as long the phylactery stayed inside the field. If the phylactery is inside an antimagic field, you can't plane shift it. Even if you did plane shift it, you would be no better off, because imprisonment is targeted on the phylactery, and would follow it. If you removed the antimagic field to plane shift it, the phylactery would become invincible and immobile again. So, freedom doesn't work because the locale where the imprisonment took place doesn't exist. Antimagic field doesn't work because imprisonment is instantaneous. Plane shift doesn't work because imprisonment keeps the phylactery in place, and would follow anyway.
The_Mad_Linguist 10-13-07, 01:20 AM	This is theoretical, so it doesn't matter what a DM decides. Besides, spending 5,000 XP to steal something worth 120,000 G.P., 4,800 XP, and 120 days from an enemy is way overpowered. Seriously, who would spend 120,000 G.P. and 120 days, if you can instead spend an extra 200 XP? That's a bad basis to make an argument upon.
Lokiyn 10-13-07, 02:16 AM	I think the main point of the above is this. You place your phylactory in an "unreachable" location, in a "Fixed" Condition So whats the answer? Well its quite simple, Imprisonment contains the provision that wish, while unable to free the recipient reveals is location. By definition the phylactory exists somewhere, else it wouldn't exist at all. So Wish reveals the location, as a result the Lich-hunter has several options to go to that location, be it teleport (if on the same plane), Planeshift (if to another), gate (if planeshift is too impercise), wish with the ability to place someone anywhere at all even in the hypothetical "Nowhere" So now the character is at the location with the phylactory. Imprisonment references the power Temporal Stasis for its effect, going to temporal stasis we see that the spell is Permenant (not permenant, which is another way of saying instantaneous). So a simple antimagic field or a dispel magic will end the Temporal Stasis effect, which is followed through with a hammer and a few good strikes. its really not that complicated. Again as i said before, the issue isn't in making a phylactory unreachable, dnd has far to many ways to find and reach even the unreachable. The idea is to make the phylactory into something that cannot be destroyed such as using the planeshifters ability to turn a gem into a demiplane. (it's not a material component, so it becomes the demiplane rather than being consumed to construct one)
The_Mad_Linguist 10-13-07, 02:40 AM	Again as i said before, the issue isn't in making a phylactory unreachable, dnd has far to many ways to find and reach even the unreachable. The idea is to make the phylactory into something that cannot be destroyed such as using the planeshifters ability to turn a gem into a demiplane. (it's not a material component, so it becomes the demiplane rather than being consumed to construct one) Of course, based on the RAW, you just make a *really* fragile demiplane instead of an invincible phylactery.
balor64 10-14-07, 02:16 PM	I think the main point of the above is this. You place your phylactory in an "unreachable" location, in a "Fixed" ConditionNot quite, the phylactery isn't unreachable, the locale where the imprisonment took place is. So whats the answer? Well its quite simple, Imprisonment contains the provision that wish, while unable to free the recipient reveals is location. By definition the phylactory exists somewhere, else it wouldn't exist at all. So Wish reveals the location, as a result the Lich-hunter has several options to go to that location, be it teleport (if on the same plane), Planeshift (if to another), gate (if planeshift is too impercise), wish with the ability to place someone anywhere at all even in the hypothetical "Nowhere" So now the character is at the location with the phylactory. Imprisonment references the power Temporal Stasis for its effect, going to temporal stasis we see that the spell is Permenant (not permenant, which is another way of saying instantaneous). So a simple antimagic field or a dispel magic will end the Temporal Stasis effect, which is followed through with a hammer and a few good strikes. its really not that complicated.Yes, the spell is permanent, but not the effect. Imprisonment references temporal stasis for an explanation of "suspended animation." That would be this part: "For the creature, time ceases to flow and its condition becomes fixed. The creature does not grow older. Its body functions virtually cease, and no force or effect can harm it." There is no reason to include any other part of temporal stasis. But if you do count a duration of permanent as inherent to suspended animation, you must also include a fortitude save to negate the effect and a 5,000 G.P. material component. Are you going to try to argue that? How about another example: Invisibility, greater has a duration of 1 round/level and says "this spell functions like invisibility, except that it doesn’t end if the subject attacks." Invisibility lasts 1 minute/level. So if you cast invisibility, greater and don't attack, it lasts an extra 9 rounds/level? Again as i said before, the issue isn't in making a phylactory unreachable, dnd has far to many ways to find and reach even the unreachable.Again, as i said before, I didn't make it unreachable. The idea is to make the phylactory into something that cannot be destroyed such as using the planeshifters ability to turn a gem into a demiplane. (it's not a material component, so it becomes the demiplane rather than being consumed to construct one)I don't have the book planeshifter is from, but I don't think a demiplane can be a phylactery. From the lich description: "Other forms of phylacteries can exist, such as rings, amulets, or similar items. " The implied meaning of this passage is that other items cannot exist as phylacteries. Is a demiplane similar to a ring or amulet? No? Then it cannot exist as a phylactery.