Maximizing 0 BAB. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Maximizing 0 BAB. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MagnaSecuris
10-01-07, 10:44 PM I challenge this board to build maximum power into a 10 level build with 0 BAB.

Obviously no PunPun.

Use 15/15/12/12/10/10 for stats. Any PHB race, any class.

Be sure to list which spells/abilities are coming from which class, and how many spells per day from each he has.

Bonus points for being playable at any level from one to ten (which means timing the arrival of each new class).
Callix
10-02-07, 07:18 AM Wiz 1 with Precocious Apprentice and 9 PrC dips? Best I can think of. Take the low-end PrCs first until your skills, feats and spells catch up with the cheese. Make sure every PrC has a caster level at 1st (not thet easy, mostly only 10/10 and 9/10 capstones do this).

For example, Wizard 1/Rogue 1/Master Specialist 1/Divine Oracle 1/_____ 1/Unseen Seer 1/Mindbender 1/Spellwarp Sniper 1/Geometer 1/Fatespinner 1 has Wiz 8 casting, where ____ is a non-wizard-casting BAB +0 class. It also uses Precocious Apprentice cheese to qualify for Master Specialist, and Practiced Spellcaster to meet the Mindbender prereqs. Most of the classes past Unseen Seer can be freely shuffled and switched. And it has +0 BAB. And uses core+completes only. You also qualify for Arcane Trickster, and can get into Loremaster (you already have Skill Focus (Knowledge (Religion))) eventually, with Mage of the Arcane Order as another class, should you wish to progress further at +0 BAB.
CrimsonDeath
10-02-07, 12:06 PM Beguiler 1 might not be bad for the undefined class in Callix's build. And as long as we're using Practiced Spellcaster, Wild Mage might not be an awful idea.
Callix
10-02-07, 05:45 PM Good suggestions, CrimsonDeath. Feats are going to be messy

Human

Wiz1: Scribe Scroll, Precocious Apprentice, Able Learner
MS1: Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
Rogue 1: Skill Focus: Knowledge (Religion)
Divine Oracle 1:
Beguiler 1:
Unseen Seer 1: Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard)
Mindbender 1:
Spellwarp Sniper 1:
Geometer 1: Free; any metamagic recommended for Wild Mage, MotAO, Loremaster, etc.
Fatespinner 1:

There just aren't enough feats to get Wild Mage before 10th while keeping enough PrCs in the early levels.

Able Learner means we don't have to worry about skill prereqs that much, especially with a Rogue level at 3rd and a Beguiler level at 5th. Casting as an 8th level wizard and 1st level Beguiler; Wiz CL 10, Beg CL 1.
Novabomb
10-02-07, 09:37 PM I dont know its preqs, but war hulk may have usage here
CrimsonDeath
10-02-07, 10:06 PM I dont know its preqs, but war hulk may have usage here

BAB: +5 (among other things)
Bauglir
10-10-07, 12:48 PM Survivor isn't a bad choice. No BAB and a d6 HD, but it gets up to Improved Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge, and DR 5/-. Savage Species. Requires at least level 5, though, since you're highest base save must be lower than your character level. Unless somebody has a base class with no good saves. That'd be golden.
EjoThims
10-10-07, 04:06 PM Unless somebody has a base class with no good saves. That'd be golden.

Level 1 Commoners qualify for Survivor.

:D
Alpha_Moose
10-10-07, 04:42 PM Grabbing some Racial Paragon levels might be nice. Human Paragon 1 at level 1 lets you count one skill as a class skill for each class which is nice for this build, and Half-elf Paragon gives a bonus feat. Go half-elf, get both the Half-elf and Human Paragon classes.
CrimsonDeath
10-10-07, 05:56 PM Ruathar 1 advances spellcasting and grants a few martial weapon proficiencies. I'm pretty sure you can qualify with +0 BAB if you either cast spells at a high enough level or have enough ranks in a skill or two.
The Rizz
10-13-07, 09:09 PM You could always attempt to go full-support with this type of character. Just grab classes that give you auras or similar party-buff abilities, and get PrCs that advance those.

To start, use the following base classes:
Bard (for bardic music)
Marshal (for auras)
Dragon Shaman (for auras)
Cleric (trade your domains for domain feats that grant auras, such as Good Devotion)

There is probably another good "party support" class to pick up, but I can't think of any right now.

For prestige classes, try get ones that build off the auras or bardic music abilities (Seeker of the Song, etc.)
ninjarabbit
10-14-07, 08:28 PM I'm liking a skill monkey here

rogue1/beguiler1/ninja1/spellthief1/bard1/warlock1/wizard1/cloisteredcleric1/monk1/scout1

7 levels of 6+ skill points per level and your familar effectively gives you 2 skill monkeys
CrimsonDeath
10-15-07, 03:18 AM I'm liking a skill monkey here

rogue1/beguiler1/ninja1/spellthief1/bard1/warlock1/wizard1/cloisteredcleric1/monk1/scout1

7 levels of 6+ skill points per level and your familar effectively gives you 2 skill monkeys

Add a level of Lurk and take Psicrystal Affinity, for a total of three skill-monkeys (one of which might actually be a monkey).
JaronK
10-17-07, 02:50 AM DIPlomancer (heh heh heh)

Rogue1/Martial 1/Warlock 1/Binder 1/Bard 1/Spellthief 1/Dread Necromancer 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/CA Ninja 1/Scout 1

Take the Warlock +6 Diplomacy ability, the Martial Charisma X2 to Charisma skills ability, and some domains that give bonuses to diplomacy. Bind Naberius. Go nuts. You don't need to fight because everyone fights for you.

Also, you've got some respectable sneak damage and you can endlessly heal yourself. Woo. Nice saves, too.

JaronK
playswithfire
10-22-07, 06:31 PM ... and the effigies we create. Not sure if Thrallherds/Cohorts were allowed for this, but if they are, here's what I've got.

Me: wizard 1/monk 1/psion(telepath) 1/rogue 1/bard 1/mindbender 1/ruathar 1/blood magus 1/thrallherd 1/effigy master 1

Cha 15+1, Int 15+1, Dex 12, Con 12, Str 10, Wis 10

Feats:
Great Fortitude, Practiced Spellcaster
Practiced Manifester, Toughness
Craft Wondrous Item
extra feat if human

So manifester level 5, caster level 9, Thrallherd score 14, gets me a 9th level thrall; can create a 10HD effigy (assuming I can have 800 xp for crafting)

My Thrall: Wizard 7/Effigy Master 2
Cha 15+1, Int 15+1, Dex 12, Con 12, Str 10, Wis 10
Feats:
Practiced Spellcaster, extra feat if human
Craft Wondrous Item
Leadership
Improved Cohort

So caster level 10, Leadership score 13, gets him an 8th level cohort; can create an 11HD effigy (assuming he can have 880 xp for crafting)

My Thrall's Cohort: Wizard 3/Anything 4/Effigy Master 1
Cha 15+1, Int 15+1, Dex 12, Con 12, Str 10, Wis 10
Feats:
Practiced Spellcaster, extra feat if human
Craft Wondrous Item
any feat
any feat

So caster level 8; can create a 9HD effigy (assuming he can have 720 xp for crafting)

Effigies: 2 Winged, Feral Dire Lions (1 is mine, 1 is my Thrall's Cohort's)
Mine: 10d10+30 (85) hp | His: 9d10+30 (79) hp
speed:50 ft, fly 70ft
Armor Class: 20 (-1 Size, +3 dex, +8 natural), touch 12, flatfoot 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+22| +6/+21
Attack:claw +19|+18 melee(2d6+9)
Full Attack: 2 claws +19|+18 melee (2d6+9) and bite +13|+12 melee (1d8+4)
Str 33, Dex 15, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1
DR 5/adamantine
Pounce,Rake,Improved Grab

And 1 Two-Headed Winged Feral Dire Lion (my Thrall's)
11d10+30 (90) hp
speed:50 ft, fly 70ft
Armor Class: 21 (-1 Size, +3 dex, +9 natural), touch 12, flatfoot 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+21
Attack:claw +18 melee(2d6+9)
Full Attack: 2 claws +18 melee (2d6+9) and 2 bite +18 melee (1d8+4)
Str 33, Dex 15, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1
DR 7/adamantine
Pounce,Rake,Improved Grap, Improved Multiattack

Total cost of creating effigies is 45000, leaving the 3 of us a total of 67000 to equip ourselves or make more effigies. Yes, both the thrall and the thrall's cohort cast better magic than me, but I assumed they were allowed to have more than 0 BAB.

EDIT: Totally unrelated but for the Survivor idea:
Wizard 1/Rogue 1/Psychic Warrior 1/Survivor 5/X 2 or play something with LA 2

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MagnaSecuris 10-01-07, 10:44 PM	I challenge this board to build maximum power into a 10 level build with 0 BAB. Obviously no PunPun. Use 15/15/12/12/10/10 for stats. Any PHB race, any class. Be sure to list which spells/abilities are coming from which class, and how many spells per day from each he has. Bonus points for being playable at any level from one to ten (which means timing the arrival of each new class).
Callix 10-02-07, 07:18 AM	Wiz 1 with Precocious Apprentice and 9 PrC dips? Best I can think of. Take the low-end PrCs first until your skills, feats and spells catch up with the cheese. Make sure every PrC has a caster level at 1st (not thet easy, mostly only 10/10 and 9/10 capstones do this). For example, Wizard 1/Rogue 1/Master Specialist 1/Divine Oracle 1/_____ 1/Unseen Seer 1/Mindbender 1/Spellwarp Sniper 1/Geometer 1/Fatespinner 1 has Wiz 8 casting, where ____ is a non-wizard-casting BAB +0 class. It also uses Precocious Apprentice cheese to qualify for Master Specialist, and Practiced Spellcaster to meet the Mindbender prereqs. Most of the classes past Unseen Seer can be freely shuffled and switched. And it has +0 BAB. And uses core+completes only. You also qualify for Arcane Trickster, and can get into Loremaster (you already have Skill Focus (Knowledge (Religion))) eventually, with Mage of the Arcane Order as another class, should you wish to progress further at +0 BAB.
CrimsonDeath 10-02-07, 12:06 PM	Beguiler 1 might not be bad for the undefined class in Callix's build. And as long as we're using Practiced Spellcaster, Wild Mage might not be an awful idea.
Callix 10-02-07, 05:45 PM	Good suggestions, CrimsonDeath. Feats are going to be messy Human Wiz1: Scribe Scroll, Precocious Apprentice, Able Learner MS1: Skill Focus (Spellcraft) Rogue 1: Skill Focus: Knowledge (Religion) Divine Oracle 1: Beguiler 1: Unseen Seer 1: Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard) Mindbender 1: Spellwarp Sniper 1: Geometer 1: Free; any metamagic recommended for Wild Mage, MotAO, Loremaster, etc. Fatespinner 1: There just aren't enough feats to get Wild Mage before 10th while keeping enough PrCs in the early levels. Able Learner means we don't have to worry about skill prereqs that much, especially with a Rogue level at 3rd and a Beguiler level at 5th. Casting as an 8th level wizard and 1st level Beguiler; Wiz CL 10, Beg CL 1.
Novabomb 10-02-07, 09:37 PM	I dont know its preqs, but war hulk may have usage here
CrimsonDeath 10-02-07, 10:06 PM	I dont know its preqs, but war hulk may have usage here BAB: +5 (among other things)
Bauglir 10-10-07, 12:48 PM	Survivor isn't a bad choice. No BAB and a d6 HD, but it gets up to Improved Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge, and DR 5/-. Savage Species. Requires at least level 5, though, since you're highest base save must be lower than your character level. Unless somebody has a base class with no good saves. That'd be golden.
EjoThims 10-10-07, 04:06 PM	Unless somebody has a base class with no good saves. That'd be golden. Level 1 Commoners qualify for Survivor. :D
Alpha_Moose 10-10-07, 04:42 PM	Grabbing some Racial Paragon levels might be nice. Human Paragon 1 at level 1 lets you count one skill as a class skill for each class which is nice for this build, and Half-elf Paragon gives a bonus feat. Go half-elf, get both the Half-elf and Human Paragon classes.
CrimsonDeath 10-10-07, 05:56 PM	Ruathar 1 advances spellcasting and grants a few martial weapon proficiencies. I'm pretty sure you can qualify with +0 BAB if you either cast spells at a high enough level or have enough ranks in a skill or two.
The Rizz 10-13-07, 09:09 PM	You could always attempt to go full-support with this type of character. Just grab classes that give you auras or similar party-buff abilities, and get PrCs that advance those. To start, use the following base classes: Bard (for bardic music) Marshal (for auras) Dragon Shaman (for auras) Cleric (trade your domains for domain feats that grant auras, such as Good Devotion) There is probably another good "party support" class to pick up, but I can't think of any right now. For prestige classes, try get ones that build off the auras or bardic music abilities (Seeker of the Song, etc.)
ninjarabbit 10-14-07, 08:28 PM	I'm liking a skill monkey here rogue1/beguiler1/ninja1/spellthief1/bard1/warlock1/wizard1/cloisteredcleric1/monk1/scout1 7 levels of 6+ skill points per level and your familar effectively gives you 2 skill monkeys
CrimsonDeath 10-15-07, 03:18 AM	I'm liking a skill monkey here rogue1/beguiler1/ninja1/spellthief1/bard1/warlock1/wizard1/cloisteredcleric1/monk1/scout1 7 levels of 6+ skill points per level and your familar effectively gives you 2 skill monkeys Add a level of Lurk and take Psicrystal Affinity, for a total of three skill-monkeys (one of which might actually be a monkey).
JaronK 10-17-07, 02:50 AM	DIPlomancer (heh heh heh) Rogue1/Martial 1/Warlock 1/Binder 1/Bard 1/Spellthief 1/Dread Necromancer 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/CA Ninja 1/Scout 1 Take the Warlock +6 Diplomacy ability, the Martial Charisma X2 to Charisma skills ability, and some domains that give bonuses to diplomacy. Bind Naberius. Go nuts. You don't need to fight because everyone fights for you. Also, you've got some respectable sneak damage and you can endlessly heal yourself. Woo. Nice saves, too. JaronK
playswithfire 10-22-07, 06:31 PM	... and the effigies we create. Not sure if Thrallherds/Cohorts were allowed for this, but if they are, here's what I've got. Me: wizard 1/monk 1/psion(telepath) 1/rogue 1/bard 1/mindbender 1/ruathar 1/blood magus 1/thrallherd 1/effigy master 1 Cha 15+1, Int 15+1, Dex 12, Con 12, Str 10, Wis 10 Feats: Great Fortitude, Practiced Spellcaster Practiced Manifester, Toughness Craft Wondrous Item extra feat if human So manifester level 5, caster level 9, Thrallherd score 14, gets me a 9th level thrall; can create a 10HD effigy (assuming I can have 800 xp for crafting) My Thrall: Wizard 7/Effigy Master 2 Cha 15+1, Int 15+1, Dex 12, Con 12, Str 10, Wis 10 Feats: Practiced Spellcaster, extra feat if human Craft Wondrous Item Leadership Improved Cohort So caster level 10, Leadership score 13, gets him an 8th level cohort; can create an 11HD effigy (assuming he can have 880 xp for crafting) My Thrall's Cohort: Wizard 3/Anything 4/Effigy Master 1 Cha 15+1, Int 15+1, Dex 12, Con 12, Str 10, Wis 10 Feats: Practiced Spellcaster, extra feat if human Craft Wondrous Item any feat any feat So caster level 8; can create a 9HD effigy (assuming he can have 720 xp for crafting) Effigies: 2 Winged, Feral Dire Lions (1 is mine, 1 is my Thrall's Cohort's) Mine: 10d10+30 (85) hp \| His: 9d10+30 (79) hp speed:50 ft, fly 70ft Armor Class: 20 (-1 Size, +3 dex, +8 natural), touch 12, flatfoot 17 Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+22\| +6/+21 Attack:claw +19\|+18 melee(2d6+9) Full Attack: 2 claws +19\|+18 melee (2d6+9) and bite +13\|+12 melee (1d8+4) Str 33, Dex 15, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1 DR 5/adamantine Pounce,Rake,Improved Grab And 1 Two-Headed Winged Feral Dire Lion (my Thrall's) 11d10+30 (90) hp speed:50 ft, fly 70ft Armor Class: 21 (-1 Size, +3 dex, +9 natural), touch 12, flatfoot 18 Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+21 Attack:claw +18 melee(2d6+9) Full Attack: 2 claws +18 melee (2d6+9) and 2 bite +18 melee (1d8+4) Str 33, Dex 15, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1 DR 7/adamantine Pounce,Rake,Improved Grap, Improved Multiattack Total cost of creating effigies is 45000, leaving the 3 of us a total of 67000 to equip ourselves or make more effigies. Yes, both the thrall and the thrall's cohort cast better magic than me, but I assumed they were allowed to have more than 0 BAB. EDIT: Totally unrelated but for the Survivor idea: Wizard 1/Rogue 1/Psychic Warrior 1/Survivor 5/X 2 or play something with LA 2