Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Giradius 03-18-08, 03:45 PM	Hello there. I came across this forum topic in D20 modern section and think that here would be a good place to discuss the idea as well. (of course it there is no reason why it must be D20 modern, when any other D20 system can be used as well). The thread was started by someonelse812 and I will reproduce the post here now. Has anyone here tried mixing D20 Modern with another campaign setting that is not usually modern? I was thinking about doing a modern version of Ptolus because I know the setting well, but it would be really cool to see Forgotten Realms or Eberon in a modern setting too. If you advance the time line a few centuries, maybe a thousand years or so, throw in a cataclysm that changes the way magic works, it would make for an interesting game world. So has anyone done this? which setting did you do? how did it turn out? If not, which setting WOULD you do and why?
Giradius 03-18-08, 03:46 PM	I have had similar ideas, and think that a "modern" or near future Faerun would be very interesting and certainly a competitor for settings like shadow run. Because of the frequency of War and the generally dangerous nature of the fantasy universe, technology would actually develop rather quickly (necessity being the mother of invention and all that) and this would occur even faster if some form of cataclysm had a detrimental effect on magic (it would have effect both arcane and divine magic), perhaps some form of border forms around the world that inhibits divine power from being channeled from the gods, and also prevents magical energy from being drawn, it would also hamper and restrict planar travel. organizations like the Harpers, the Zhentarim etc might become secret societies or even huge public entities (the Harper foundation etc). Possibilities are endless, Waterdeep could become Faerun's "New York" and Thay might end up as a backwater almost 3rd world country, unable to accept the loss of magical power and resistant to change, the only thing preventing its invasion is that it has few resources now that magic has lost most of its power. It certainly bares consideration. My own Idea was not take a fantasy world and make it modern, but take a modern world and make it fantasy (as shadowrun has done) but no to any specific setting, (like Shadowrun has done with Earthdawn). In the same way that a fantasy setting can become modern if magic fades, then a modern setting can become fantasy if it awakens with 2 good candidates being the beginning of the age of Aquarius 500AD (which is conveniently late enough to avoid any religious questions, even those not related to mainstream religions, such as Odin worship and the greek gods, but is early enough to cover some interesting times in history that can be rewritten with a fantasy world in mind), the other possibility is some form of celestial event (such as a comet or eclipse) occurring around 1800 which awakens magic (this is fairly recent but allows for an interesting Victorian era and 2 world wars).
Giradius 03-18-08, 04:46 PM	In a modern fantasy setting where divine magic works, there will rise some difficult questions as to the origin of this power. My own view is that the issue should be tackled thus: soon after divine magic appears a leading religious leader (I will default to a Pope for this example, especially if its in the western world, and doubly so if the awakening is in 500AD), decrees that divine magic DOES NOT violate any of the 10 commandments, as long as practice of it does not lead to the breaking of any of them, therefore a Christian priest performing divine magic in the name of the one true god and the one true church is not committing a sin. This general attitude will be taken by most religions, but heres the snag. The evidence of divine magic being used by believers of other faiths, this will be handled by each religion in its own way, most of the Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Judaism and Islam), will probably take the stance that only their own divine magic is TRULY divine, the divine magic used by others is most likely the trickery of Satan/Shaitan/lucifer etc. Some other religions such a Hinduism, or any other polytheistic faiths (and more will become popular as the older religions like the Asgardian/Olympic/Osiran pantheons will have a resurgence in popularity as magic re-enters the world) will probably take the view that all divine magic comes from the same basic source and view the gods of other religions as different faces of their own. There will however from most mainstream religions be prejudice against arcane magic, as this has no divine origin and therefore will contravene religious laws, some groups may be more tolerant (the older more pagan faiths, New age types, more liberal or progressive Christian and Jewish groups) others less so (certain fundamentalist groups, extreme branches of Islam and Christianity). The general consensus will be that divine magic is fine, as long as the practitioner belongs to the right religion, otherwise it is not truly divine and can be classified with arcane magic as wrong (how groups deal with magic they see is wrong depends on the individual, they may preach they should abandon their ways, or maybe even oppose it violently). The beauty of this idea is that even Atheists can take a view that accepts divine magic without problem, as they can hold the view that divine magic is a form of arcane magic that instead of wielding the power of the will to create or shape magic (as arcane magic does), divine magic uses the power of belief. With this attitude to divine magic taken, no one can get offended. as for other associated religious phenomena, such as the existence of celestials, fiends etc the same view can can be taken as with divine magic, the presence of a Solar in Rome, or a Rakshasa in certain Indian temples, is handled in the same attitude, if the celestial appears in the right church, then the celestial is truly divine, if they appear in another religions church then they are either A) not truly divine and have been sent to help/teach/convert the non believers or B) they are not truly divine and are either deceptions, or misguided. The way I would run things is that any one or any faith has divine magic, in addition they all have extraplanar realities such as higher and lower planes which are inhabited. The controversy as to the true origins of these things is down to the DM but my own take on the subject will be that it is indeed belief itself that creates these things, even outsiders are created from the power of belief and have existed since the belief began but could only take physical existence when magic returned.
Bosh_Vant 03-29-08, 05:59 PM	A Issue of Dragon had the setting GreyHawk 2000 which is just what you are thinking of. As for myself, I am putting together a setting I call E-Wrath which is along a similar vein (see my posting under Urban Arcana.) With E-Wrath I am looting several D20 sources. I am using Litroans from Arcana Unearthed by sword & sorcery, in that book they are Lion men but I am expanding them to be Big Cat men with geographic Ethnicity. Lions from Africa, Mountain Lions from Native American Stock, and the Indian Tiger Litroans would be responsible for tales of Rakshasa (you get the better end of some shlub in a few deals and all of a sudden your entire race is labeled "demonic".) Nezumi would be primarily from Asia, as they and the Lupin (see Dragon Conpendium) were hunted viciously in Europe. Nezumi would have first been recognized as having rights as sentients in Asian and therefore be more populous there. Lupin are mostly Native American as they had a far freindlier attitude towards Wolves ingeneral than Europeans. I am ruleing Gnolls will be African as that is wher Hyenas live their anthropomorphic kin should be there too. I feel the common races (PHB) would be spread out over the entire world. I however think that I'll just call Half Orks - Orks and rule that demi-humans are not geneticaly compatible. (Because if we have half-elves & half-orks, why not half-gnomes, half-halflings, and half-Ork/Elf Elorks, or Elf/Goblins called Gobves.) I do think that Sprit folk would be more universal and I want to have a sentient plant race, what do you all think?
Giradius 03-30-08, 01:25 PM	This is a long post, so apologies When I originally saw a modern fantasy thread i knew it had potential and would be something i would want to contribute to, however I dont realy like the D20 modern classes and think its far preferable to create full 20 level classes, this is just a personal preferance of mine. I have had a look at what you have done so far and quite like what I saw, I agree that it is a big project. I like the fact that you have said these races are gentically incompatible, this makes a lot of sense from a science perspective ( we share 96% dna with chimps and yet we cannot interbreed, what chance do orcs have) and also clears a few issues up like Dwelves, Halves, Elorcs etc. One very minor criticism I have is that i feel there are too many demi-human/monstrous humanoid races, given mankinds track history when it comes to dealing with different races OF THE SAME SPECIES, not to mention that there is no real reason why other races would be any different i find it unlikely that so many races would have survived in great number, what races did survive would depend on where they originate. The best way to see whether a race would be accepted or not is to have a look at the folklore, mythology and dominant religions of the area, Elves, halflings and dwarves would probably be OK in Europe as they would be seen to have connections with good fey, and Norse myth, they also look only slightly different than humans, Orks would not be accepted in Europe and they would probably have been hunted to extinction in Europe as trolls or monsters by ancient Europeans or as demonic children of Satan by the early church and inquisition. I am inclined to think any obviously non human race (especially anything remotely animalistic or draconic/demonic in appearance) would be either be persecuted and driven out in Europe, or hunted and purged, in the far east Dragons are revered as divine instead of feared as they are in Europe and so any reptilian or draconic species will be accepted as possibly divine in origin, however tigers and foxes (and many other mammalian species) are considered evil in eastern myth myth and any feline and canine humanoids would be considered demonic and again not accepted. India and the rest of the Indian subcontinent has Hinduism as dominant religion and so would be probably the most accepting of non humans (considering that many Hindu gods are non human, maybe their religion is based on myths about ancient non humans, Hanuman could have been an ancient Vanara ruler and sorcerer, the same Vanara sorcerer revered as the Monkey King in china), Vanara , yaun ti (children of Nag in India maybe), Nezumi (chuhas) and no doubt many others would be accepted, although i think they would not be as high as Brahmins (human priest caste) in the Indian caste system, or maybe Hindu culture would have developed a second caste system. Ancient North America and its natives would no doubt accept animalistic humanoids quite well, especially those that have positive image in native American myth, wolves, coyotes, eagles, owls, etc. South America and its Mesoamerican cultures (Aztecs. Incas etc) would also probably accept many races, especially animalistic races of the desert, snakes, spiders for instance, and would not view the brutality of some races (such as orcs) as a big problem as their own culture was quite brutal, speaking of orcs, even we don't say that they are evil as a race they are still aggressive and a bit savage, its their nature and so they will be welcome in few parts of the world, warrior cultures may accept them, viewing their aggression as a virtue, as such Mongols, Huns, and other aggressive barbarians would accept them, (however despite being a warrior culture I doubt japan would accept an orc samurai). The middle east would be different historically and change as time passed, the ancient people of the middle east, (the Egyptians, Babylonians, sumerians etc) would probably accept non humans in the same way as India and Mesoamerica, as many ancient deities are non human (Tiamat is a sumerian deity),also many of the Egyptian gods could be based on actual monstrous humanoids that lived in its past, in fact many of the priesthood of these cultures could have been non humans. However with the coming of Islam (and to a lesser extent Judaism) many non humanoids would find themselves in trouble, partly because of their association with ancient (and banned) religions, but also for their obviously non human natures, any reptilian species would be hunted as being related to the serpent of Eden and having connections with the devil, many mammals would be hunted as "unclean" beasts, in fact the only non humans I can see survivingwould be the demihumans and even they would no doubt be bottom of the pecking order. So with that said I think that the number of species should be dropped, we have only just entered the age of tolerance (where institutional racism was still around in the 1950s) and so they have many centuries of intolerance,genocide and persecution to survive. now onto the positives. Historical people, instead of created many new historical personalities (after all humans wont be responsible for everything) you can add a few and then take existing ones and change their races, for instance, I see Leonardo deVinci as a dwarf, maybe Isaac Newton was an elf, Genghis khan was an orc, Montezuma was a yaun ti, Vlad the impaler might have been an actual vampire. Also as this is a fantasy setting some mythological historic figures might have existed too, King Arthur (first paladin and founder of the round table, one of the largest paladin orders in the world, I also see some paladins being samurai), Merlin was a druid etc. There will also need to be a few folk heros for these races, freedom fighters and idealists, halfling suffragettes, as you mention Orc rights leaders. Regarding Magic, you have 2 choices, 1) Magic is like physics and works in the same kind of way, it has laws and energies that can be studied and manipulated with magical techniques, and in this way magic becomes its own thing and separate from any existing real world mysticism, it will probably merge with science to a great degree (not so that you get technomagic as magic is a different discipline with different laws, it would be like saying lets build a car out of light), this makes things interesting as not only could Einstein have been one of greatest physicists who ever lived, but he was also a powerful wizard. 2) Magic is the real world magical teachings that actually work, therefore wizards would by definition be, wiccans,kabbalists,Galdr, etc, magic would have its roots in real world magical traditions, this is good as well and i can help you with this. These 2 choices really become, magic as science or magic as mysticism, both are good in my opinion, however i think magic will have been suppressed and banned in many places for centuries, this is because in the real world magic was frowned upon by most (but not all) cultures, and even though magic doesn't exist in the real world it could still get you burned (or hung), the last law against the practice of magic was only scrapped in Britain in the 1950s, and that's in the real world imagine how much worse it would have been if magic DID work! option 1 is more conductive to magic being accepted in the 21st century, as misunderstood science, in this scenario it would be acceptable to have Oxford,Cambridge,Harvard and other universities having magical departments and faculties, administration for magical affairs (who decide on magical legislation in the same way that legislation is decided for fire arms etc), magic users will need licences and registration to able to legally use magic, much magic will outright banned (necromancy, summoning, some divination, overtly destructive etc) for the same reason surface to air missiles are banned for the general populace, in fact the majority of "legal" magic would be protective and utilitarian in nature, however some practitioners of magic might obey these laws but still have an illegal spellbook locked away (purely in the interest of science, or in case of emergency). I think that many areas having null magic zones is too much, and would be inclined to say that only major targets have such safeguards if these safeguards are possible (the pentagon, whitehouse, houses of parliament, buckingham palace, 10 downing street etc), these zones would be hard to maintain and would probably require several powerful wizards in constant concentration (if they are possible to create under the laws of magic, in the same way as a null gravity area is not possible) and I am in favour of having rogue wizards being dealt with in the same way as terrorists, and the public is aware of these people (occasionally to the point of hysteria) there are laws in place to control magic, these laws are enforced by special squads of the police force and military, anyone suspected of illegal magic is arrested and imprisoned (in a special prisons that either are null magic if they exist or they are drugged or restrained so they cannot use it) because despite magic being existent I don't think it should be the focus of the setting, that should be everyday life in a world where magic CAN happen when your orc neighbor next door ate your dog, magic should not really impact on the average Joe too much other than when something big happens (terrorism does not affect most people directly, people feel sympathy for victims and rage at the terrorists, but in terms of having been affected directly in that a relative died or a relative was a terrorist very few people have, the most experience the majority has with terrorism is when they read about it in the paper or see it on the TV, that's how magic should be for most people). I know this is a long post but two final question, What about dragons? will they exist or will they be extinct and museums have dragon skeletons and hordes as exhibits, maybe western dragons are "thought" extinct, and eastern dragons still exist (but are rare), or maybe dragons still exist and many are for lack of a better word celebrities (maybe a red dragon could light the Olympic torch), maybe they are wealthy citizens, Donald Trump is red dragon (I see him now sat in a huge penthouse on a pile of coins, still wearing a toupee) . secondly this is related to magic, what about divine magic? are you going to base it on what i posted here or maybe not include it at all, the same for outsiders? thanks for your patience look forward to your reply