Monster's rebuking other monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Monster's rebuking other monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
loganic1
02-23-08, 07:54 PM This is probably a stupid question, but I have to ask.

"At any one time, the cleric may command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level."

If I personally command an undead, such as atropal scion, which has the ability to rebuke/command undead as a cleric equal in level to it's HD is, what's stopping me from having a large number of scions, all chained/linked?

There doesn't seem to be a limit as to how many scions I would indirectly be able to control.

Should one be killed, interupting the chain, it will just take a round for the chain to reconnect.

Finally, does rod of defiance + Lyre of the Restful Soul, allow them to be able to command more undead too?
CrimsonDeath
02-24-08, 03:10 AM For one thing, a lot of undead have Turn Resistance, and it seems to be especially common among undead with the racial ability to rebuke undead. Many of them would have effective HD higher than their own rebuking level, and to control another creature of its kind, it would need a rebuking level of twice its own HD.

For another thing, if one of them got killed, all the creatures it controlled would be free until someione higher up in the chain could go reestablish control. And since that creature would presumably already be controlling other creatures, it wouldn't be able to gain control of all of its destroyed subordinate's lackeys. Which is probably the most dangerous thing about the undead pyramid scheme.

The second most dangerous thing is that you're relying on indirect control, which may involve a reinterpretation of your instructions each time they're passed from one layer of command to another. It'll work in theory, but it gives the DM some room to mess with you.

A similar strategy (with similar problems) is to gain control of one creature that can create spawn that are under its control.

I'm not sure how the lyre and rod will help, but my guess is that if they help clerics rebuke undead, they'll help anything else that can rebuke undead as a cleric.
loganic1
02-24-08, 02:33 PM The rod and lyre decrease the turn resistance of nearby undead by 4 each.
It's a trick from the thread rebuking an army, allowing you to control many 9hd creatures as a single HD.

I checked, and Apropal scion does not have turn resistance, neither does brain in a jar.
Edit: Omg, yes they do. They have a 60ft aura of +4 turn resistance. Is it possible for me to have them switch it off, allow me to re-command them at a lesser HD?

I understand the problems with indirect instructions, which results in you having to perhaps command each of your undead to command their underlings to listen to you . . . either that or just give general instructions.
Also, if one of the undead in the chain dies, it urgently needs to be restablished by having the one who lost a spawn, to rebuke/control the spawn who's masterless, but yes, it's dangerous.

Finally, I don't think two monsters/clerics can work together to command an undead up to their combined HD, so as an alternative, can I equip some of my undead with items so, I can have one of them control an originally 19hd Entropic Reaper?

For a couple of thousand, I would be able to take my 9hd (1 effective hd) to control a 19HD(11 effective)
Entropic reaper has the fun ability, that every time it deals dmg, the character has to make a 21DC, or else cannot cast spells, use magic items, or even differentiate between allies or enemies (it gets better, but those are the main points)
JaronK
02-25-08, 02:52 AM I believe the general recommended rule (at least from Skip) is that control chains still count against the original pool, so if a scion controls 10HD in critters, then you can control 10 HD less.

However, the Lyre should still effect them.

JaronK
CrimsonDeath
02-25-08, 04:14 PM I believe the general recommended rule (at least from Skip) is that control chains still count against the original pool, so if a scion controls 10HD in critters, then you can control 10 HD less.

I've never seen that anywhere. Where did you see it?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
loganic1 02-23-08, 07:54 PM	This is probably a stupid question, but I have to ask. "At any one time, the cleric may command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level." If I personally command an undead, such as atropal scion, which has the ability to rebuke/command undead as a cleric equal in level to it's HD is, what's stopping me from having a large number of scions, all chained/linked? There doesn't seem to be a limit as to how many scions I would indirectly be able to control. Should one be killed, interupting the chain, it will just take a round for the chain to reconnect. Finally, does rod of defiance + Lyre of the Restful Soul, allow them to be able to command more undead too?
CrimsonDeath 02-24-08, 03:10 AM	For one thing, a lot of undead have Turn Resistance, and it seems to be especially common among undead with the racial ability to rebuke undead. Many of them would have effective HD higher than their own rebuking level, and to control another creature of its kind, it would need a rebuking level of twice its own HD. For another thing, if one of them got killed, all the creatures it controlled would be free until someione higher up in the chain could go reestablish control. And since that creature would presumably already be controlling other creatures, it wouldn't be able to gain control of all of its destroyed subordinate's lackeys. Which is probably the most dangerous thing about the undead pyramid scheme. The second most dangerous thing is that you're relying on indirect control, which may involve a reinterpretation of your instructions each time they're passed from one layer of command to another. It'll work in theory, but it gives the DM some room to mess with you. A similar strategy (with similar problems) is to gain control of one creature that can create spawn that are under its control. I'm not sure how the lyre and rod will help, but my guess is that if they help clerics rebuke undead, they'll help anything else that can rebuke undead as a cleric.
loganic1 02-24-08, 02:33 PM	The rod and lyre decrease the turn resistance of nearby undead by 4 each. It's a trick from the thread rebuking an army, allowing you to control many 9hd creatures as a single HD. I checked, and Apropal scion does not have turn resistance, neither does brain in a jar. Edit: Omg, yes they do. They have a 60ft aura of +4 turn resistance. Is it possible for me to have them switch it off, allow me to re-command them at a lesser HD? I understand the problems with indirect instructions, which results in you having to perhaps command each of your undead to command their underlings to listen to you . . . either that or just give general instructions. Also, if one of the undead in the chain dies, it urgently needs to be restablished by having the one who lost a spawn, to rebuke/control the spawn who's masterless, but yes, it's dangerous. Finally, I don't think two monsters/clerics can work together to command an undead up to their combined HD, so as an alternative, can I equip some of my undead with items so, I can have one of them control an originally 19hd Entropic Reaper? For a couple of thousand, I would be able to take my 9hd (1 effective hd) to control a 19HD(11 effective) Entropic reaper has the fun ability, that every time it deals dmg, the character has to make a 21DC, or else cannot cast spells, use magic items, or even differentiate between allies or enemies (it gets better, but those are the main points)
JaronK 02-25-08, 02:52 AM	I believe the general recommended rule (at least from Skip) is that control chains still count against the original pool, so if a scion controls 10HD in critters, then you can control 10 HD less. However, the Lyre should still effect them. JaronK
CrimsonDeath 02-25-08, 04:14 PM	I believe the general recommended rule (at least from Skip) is that control chains still count against the original pool, so if a scion controls 10HD in critters, then you can control 10 HD less. I've never seen that anywhere. Where did you see it?