Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Beleriphon 07-10-07, 06:38 AM	I have question, is it possible to kill a CR20 dragon (the only one that I know of is a Black Wyrm) with a level 20 wizard? I really think that it is possible. Being the type that doesn't own every book I'm not really up on all of the cheese possibilities, so I'm asking you fine folks to give me a hand. So here's the stipulations for what I need. One wizard, no party. Level 20, must be a wizard to start with, but can use any appropriate prestige class from WotC books provided that you tell me what book it comes from. Same deal with feats. Same deal with spells. Feel free to be otherwise as cheesey as possible. No Pun-Pun goofiness. ;) Will be fighting a Black Wyrm dragon. The dragon is a standard MM CR20 Black Dragon (Wyrm category) The dragon has a normal horde for its age category and type. If that horde includes magic items (feel free to make a horde) the dragon can use said magic items to the best of its abilities. Assign spells based on the fact that the dragon counts as a 13th level sorcerer. The wizard must have a 90% chance or better to kill the dragon in a single round to be considered the winner.
Psionx 07-10-07, 08:21 AM	Lots of rocks, shrink item, telekinesis, shout command word. It is NOT falling damage.
Wizard Random 07-10-07, 09:36 AM	Just use Shivering Touch BAM No dragon Takes like a standard action and the dragon loses, since you are level 20 Maximize it for guaranteed kill. this comes out to 18 Dex damage the dragon just can't handle so he goes comatose thereby handing you the fight on a silver platter. After he becomes helpless just pump a few "Coup de Grace" Scorching Rays into his black hide and watch him burn. Note: use Disintegrate for 80d6 on the Coup de Grade
Tempest Stormwind 07-10-07, 10:52 AM	Just use Shivering Touch BAM No dragon Takes like a standard action and the dragon loses, since you are level 20 Maximize it for guaranteed kill. this comes out to 18 Dex damage the dragon just can't handle so he goes comatose thereby handing you the fight on a silver platter. After he becomes helpless just pump a few "Coup de Grace" Scorching Rays into his black hide and watch him burn. Note: use Disintegrate for 80d6 on the Coup de Grade Note that you CAN do this in one round. Even without Contingency. Just use Greater Celerity to give you an extra full-round action to deliver the coup de grace. Shivering Touch is in Frostburn, Greater Celerity in the PHB2.
warwinner 07-10-07, 03:04 PM	You can cast any save or die spell and assume the dragon fails it's save But if it is a "fight", you can't kill a dragon in 1 round. The dragon can cast shivering touch on you if it wins initiative [sorceror spellcasting].Besides you have to touch it [there's some dragon spell increasing touch ac by natural armor amount, shimmering scales ?] and bypass it's spell resistance Then there are other factors
Psionx 07-10-07, 06:01 PM	Yay for a lotta rocks! http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/UZ/en-us/Card5594.jpg As the picture says: "Nothin' beat surprise—'cept rock."
Beleriphon 07-10-07, 11:00 PM	I recall there being some kind of Greater Celerity type goofiness involving Time Stop and something else that I once saw suggested. Any ideas about building on those?
JaronK 07-10-07, 11:21 PM	Greater Celerity, Spectral Hand, Shivering Touch = no need to get close to the dragon. Now your riding dogs that you bought with the feat that lets you coup de gras as a standard action run up and insta kill him. There's really no getting around the fact that Shivering Touch is an "I win" button against dragons. JaronK
Callix 07-11-07, 12:10 AM	Foresight (rod extended) seals the deal. If the dragon wins initiative, Greater Celerity. Either Disintegrate and he fails a save, or Shivering Touch and he's completely useless. The fight is won, and you didn't even ghave to kill the dragon. Just let it wait 10 days before it can move again ;)
warwinner 07-11-07, 03:09 AM	Are we Assuming the wyrm dragon is dumb and doesn't have or know how to use magic items and spells in this case ?
Beleriphon 07-11-07, 04:19 AM	Are we Assuming the wyrm dragon is dumb and doesn't have or know how to use magic items and spells in this case ? Not at all, assume whatever you want about a Black Wyrm that only counts as a 13th level spellcaster. My only stipulation with the Wyrm is that it must be CR20, which as far as I know is limited to the Black Wyrm. In fact you can assume the 20th level wizard is assaulting the wyrm in its own lair if you like. If that makes the challenge more challenging all the better.
warwinner 07-11-07, 11:37 AM	Not at all, assume whatever you want about a Black Wyrm that only counts as a 13th level spellcaster. My only stipulation with the Wyrm is that it must be CR20, which as far as I know is limited to the Black Wyrm. In fact you can assume the 20th level wizard is assaulting the wyrm in its own lair if you like. If that makes the challenge more challenging all the better. well can the wyrm have class levels in some way/ swap it's feats for something else what about equipment it has ? how much ?
Beleriphon 07-11-07, 11:48 AM	well can the wyrm have class levels in some way/ swap it's feats for something else what about equipment it has ? how much ? Take the creature from the Monstuer Manual, assign anything as you see fit based on that entry in terms of is treasure horde. Feel free to assume that it uses any magic items in that horde to full effect, or at least as best as it is able. Class levels no, its a by the books CR20 Black Wyrm dragon. However, as it counts as having sorcerer levels feel free to give it whatever spells you feel are appropriate.
warwinner 07-11-07, 12:15 PM	Is it supposed to be alone or can it have creatures charmed through abilities [charmed reptiles for black dragon] beforehand with it Can feats be changed ?
Beleriphon 07-11-07, 12:16 PM	Is it supposed to be alone or can it have creatures charmed through abilities [charmed reptiles for black dragon] beforehand with it Can feats be changed ? Change the feats as you see fit, but its a single, lone dragon.
warwinner 07-11-07, 12:21 PM	That reduces the dragon's CR a bit, but i'll see if i can make a dragon which can't be killed in one round Starting distance ? Place of fight - Arena like or open area with place to fly ?
Beleriphon 07-11-07, 12:26 PM	Which ever you prefer, one might assume the wizard would attack in the dragon's own lair. You can assume the wizard is probably going to attack the dragon at the most opportune moment. Although I'll leave those particular stipulations up to the wizard's build. Be vewy, vewy qwiet. Its dwagon huntin' season. ;)
warwinner 07-11-07, 12:28 PM	Can combatants have spells cast on themself beforehand, since black wyrms are water creatures, how about a fight underwater
Beleriphon 07-11-07, 12:35 PM	Can combatants have spells cast on themself beforehand, since black wyrms are water creatures, how about a fight underwater Sure, go ahead and have the dragon setup any way you like provided that its starts the fight the alone.
warwinner 07-11-07, 12:42 PM	well i will make a build [might take some days] I assume that dragon can have spells cast on itself beforehand [before combat starts] and so will the wizard ?
Beleriphon 07-11-07, 12:44 PM	well i will make a build [might take some days] I assume that dragon can have spells cast on itself beforehand [before combat starts] and so will the wizard ? Yep, yep. The basic premise is the wizard shows up and kicks the living snot out of the dragon as fast as possible. The wizard can achieve this result in any way possible.
warwinner 07-11-07, 12:45 PM	The basic premise is the wizard shows up and kicks the living snot out of the dragon as fast as possible. The wizard can achieve this result in any way possible. Do you hate dragons ? :) Alright then i'll see what can be done
warwinner 07-11-07, 03:56 PM	While i'll be making a "survivor" build Some preliminary research shows a wyrm's options [many of them]. Here's a question The Black dragon wyrm has sudden widen feat [complete arcane] and already used it to cover itself in an antimagic field [sorceror 6]. It also has awaken spell resistance feat [draconomicon] to gain SR 34 and spellcasting harrier [draconomicon, also epic level handbook i think] or mage slayer [complete arcane] feat to gain a.o.o's vs defensive casting in it's reach or prevent defensive casting altogether.Also combat reflexes to make a.o.o's while flat footed So what's the new plan to kill it in one round ? since shivering touch and disintegrate are out of the question Spell immunity and globe of invulnerability would work vs shivering touch in addition, but amf seems better
JaronK 07-11-07, 05:10 PM	Spell Immunity can be dodged by Heightened Shivering Touch, and isn't there some Mystra class that can cast in Antimagic Fields? JaronK
Djief 07-11-07, 06:22 PM	It's not a class it's a feat (initiate of Mystra). unfunrtunatly you need to be a cleric of Mystra to get it so no go for a pure wizard (unless there's some cheese somewhere that lets you get it as a wiz, I doubt it though). But isn't putting himslef in an AMF kinda sucks for the dragon, that means no other spells active and no casting/SLA/breath and the mage killer feat drops it caster level by 4. I doubt any dragon would put that up but I'll let it this way for this exercice. I'll guess we'll have to go with something along the lines of quickened time stop -> preparations to kill -> kill the dragon once timestop is over. Edit : raise caster level enough to be able to MDJ that AMF and use shivering touch after ? EDIT 2 : OP says we can take PrC but can we take other lvls ? 'cause a Clr3/Wiz17 could cast in an AMF no problem considering said dragon with Mage slayer feat, 11 + CL of the dragon (20) should be easy to beat for a lvl17 wiz without even boosting his CL but just add practiced spellcaster to be 100% sure it succeeds
warwinner 07-11-07, 10:35 PM	Edit : raise caster level enough to be able to MDJ that AMF and use shivering touch after ? EDIT 2 : OP says we can take PrC but can we take other lvls ? 'cause a Clr3/Wiz17 could cast in an AMF no problem considering said dragon with Mage slayer feat, 11 + CL of the dragon (20) should be easy to beat for a lvl17 wiz without even boosting his CL but just add practiced spellcaster to be 100% sure it succeeds Well, the dragon can choose not to widen AMF if need be, besides it will get an aoo if you cast normally [Because you're in it's reach i.e - range of amf is within the reach of the dragon] + you can't cast defensively/or provoke an aoo depending on mageslayer/harrier I was thinking the dragon could make an aoo within an amf count somehow Don't forget a.o.o's for moving Spell Immunity can be dodged by Heightened Shivering Touch, and isn't there some Mystra class that can cast in Antimagic Fields? JaronK Spell immunity can't be overcome by heightening.It's globe of invulnerability you're talking about ?
JaronK 07-12-07, 12:34 AM	Spell immunity can't be overcome by heightening.It's globe of invulnerability you're talking about ? I thought Spell Immunity only worked on spells of up to a certain level? No matter. JaronK
warwinner 07-12-07, 12:59 AM	I thought Spell Immunity only worked on spells of up to a certain level? No matter. JaronK Well a heightened shivering touch is still a shivering touch [3rd level spell] which can be specified in spell immunity The warded creature is immune to the effects of one specified spell for every four levels you have. The spells must be of 4th level or lower. The warded creature effectively has unbeatable spell resistance regarding the specified spell or spells. Naturally, that immunity doesn’t protect a creature from spells for which spell resistance doesn’t apply but heightening penetrates globe of invulnerability Spells of 4th level and higher are not affected by the globe
Djief 07-12-07, 01:02 AM	Well, the dragon can choose not to widen AMF if need be, besides it will get an aoo if you cast normally [Because you're in it's reach i.e - range of amf is within the reach of the dragon] + you can't cast defensively/or provoke an aoo depending on mageslayer/harrier I was thinking the dragon could make an aoo within an amf count somehow Don't forget a.o.o's for moving That's assuming the dragon is in reach, may I ask how he does that?
warwinner 07-12-07, 01:08 AM	Assuming you are casting somewhere within 20ft reach of dragon, where the amf extends
Djief 07-12-07, 02:09 AM	I fail to see why the wizard would even go within 20 ft of the dragon but assuming you're not within 5ft just pop a smokestick and cast.
warwinner 07-12-07, 02:40 AM	I fail to see why the wizard would even go within 20 ft of the dragon but assuming you're not within 5ft just pop a smokestick and cast. If you want to cast a spell within the amf or a touch spell you'd have to come within reach.What spell do you have in mind? Besides smokestick would take std action, so can you still kill dragon in 1 round.It doesn't work underwater [where i'm thinking to put this black dragon] Smokestick This alchemically treated wooden stick instantly creates thick, opaque smoke. The smoke fills a 10-foot cube (treat the effect as a fog cloud spell, except that a moderate or stronger wind dissipates the smoke in 1 round) Fog Cloud Conjuration (Creation) The spell does not function underwater
Djief 07-12-07, 03:20 AM	Let's say a reached maximized shivering touch ? And if you're gonna say the dragon's gonna have spell imunity well it kinda sucks for a challenge since you're gonna counter any tactic with spell immunity.... Anyhow given an AMF a cleric 3/Wizard 17 can use Shivering touch tactic with reach spell directly into the AMF from 30 ft away. Either quicken it or use Greater Celerity to go and Coup de Grace that dragon. EDIT : if you really insist your dragon have spell immunity (shivering touch) just use Twinned Maximized Reached Lesser Shivering Touch for the same effect more or less.
warwinner 07-12-07, 06:36 AM	Well this was what i was fearing :) The initiate of mystra feat says You can attempt to cast spells within an antimagic field In an antimagic field make check .... spell functions normally My assumption [seems RAW] is that you can't cast spells into an amf even with the feat.But only while within it Your's is another possible interpretation, if i can cast spells in an amf, why can't i cast one into it Vague rules, especially in such powerful spells/feats make life difficult Also spell immunity protects against 3 spells for a black wyrm [1 spell per 4 caster levels]. So it can also be immune to dispel magic and lesser shivering touch in addition So it's a stalemate [but see below] I have thought this over. CR20 encounters have bazillion rules issues/possibilities.Theoretical or RAW optimization/arguments doesn't seem to be my forte.Many high level spells/abilities are so vague that there are many interpretations and unexplained interactions possible, this will only result in long unproductive arguments.So i humbly accept defeat and resign from this challenge Here are some things a dragon could use in a battle vs wizards that i found 1] Ring of spellbattle [complete arcane] - could be very useful 2] Dragons can take practiced spellcaster [sorceror] for +4 caster level and arcane disciple [death domain] to cast death ward and gain Immunity to save or die spells 3] There are other alternatives to mitigate or assist against shivering touch like concealment spells [blur,blink], a.o.o if wizard moves in to touch, strongheart vest+incarnum reserve through feats, dex increasing item & spells, polymorph spell to change into a high dex creature etc So shivering touch alone won't let you win vs a prepared dragon , you need time stop, celerity, foresight, feats, true strike, dispel magic etc.Not as easy as "cast shivering touch on dragon and watch it die" Hope i've done the iconic monster some justice
Djief 07-12-07, 12:33 PM	Just on a side note, your spell immunity nor any other spell function in your AMF. I'm gonna put another strategy assuming I can't cast from outside the AMF : Prebuff : invisibility, Shapechange, contingency (Greater Invisiblity when the invisibility spell ends) Assuming I can start where I want, that is inside the field -> Ironheart Surge (2 feats investement) -> Shift into a chocker -> Quickened MDJ (using a rod of quicken) -> GInv pops -> Maximized Reached Shivering touch -> move besides dragon -> my turn ends but not the round -> Greater Celerity -> Coup de Grace AFAIK I'm safe as long I'm casting quicken spells and after the MDJ I'm invisible so you can't make an AoO when I cast shivering touch 4 feats needed and a rod of greater quicken and some material components, nothing a lvl20 character can't afford, can go pure wizard If I can't start inside the field I'm gonna need to move inside it (using whatever form has enough speed to do so) but then I'll need to have the feet to make a Coup de grace as a std action, 1 more feat So, 5 feats to be sure
Wizard Random 07-12-07, 12:37 PM	Assuming you are casting somewhere within 20ft reach of dragon, where the amf extends Shielded Casting beats MageSlayer or Spell casting Harrier, Also Invoke Magic from Lords of Madness beats AMF. So walk in with a shield cast Invoke Magic and kill the dragon. As tempest said like one round with celerity. if the dragon truly decides to be in a AMF where its breath weapon and spells don't function then it is committing suicide. Also if the Wizard has Skittish nerves prepared (kaupers in Faerun) then there is no reason he should ever lose initiative.
Khan the Destroyer 07-12-07, 12:40 PM	Mage Slayer reduces the dragon's caster level to 9, which is too low to cast Antimagic Field. Also, the Orb spells still function through an AMF. It may be possible to simply deal enough damage to kill the dragon in 1 hit with an orb spell.
Wizard Random 07-12-07, 12:42 PM	Also spell immunity protects against 3 spells for a black wyrm [1 spell per 4 caster levels]. So it can also be immune to dispel magic and lesser shivering touch in addition Perhaps the Dragon can be immune to dispel magic but its Spells can't. All the wizard has to do is Area Dispel
Wizard Random 07-12-07, 12:43 PM	Mage Slayer reduces the dragon's caster level to 9, which is too low to cast Antimagic Field. Also, the Orb spells still function through an AMF. It may be possible to simply deal enough damage to kill the dragon in 1 hit with an orb spell. I do remember seeing something where someone can do like 1k damage with those spells, don't remember what build it was though.
Djief 07-12-07, 12:47 PM	I do remember seeing something where someone can do like 1k damage with those spells, don't remember what build it was though. I think it included repeated, no? ok even half the damage is enough to stike the dragon down :)
Wizard Random 07-12-07, 12:49 PM	I think it included repeated, no? ok even half the damage is enough to stike the dragon down :) I am almost positive they fired it from a wand.....
JaronK 07-12-07, 01:51 PM	Mage Slayer reduces the dragon's caster level to 9, which is too low to cast Antimagic Field. Mage Slayer lowers your caster level, not your levels in the spellcasting class. It's like a reverse Practiced Spellcaster, really. JaronK
Djief 07-12-07, 04:26 PM	I am almost positive they fired it from a wand..... What can I say ? ouch ?
Druss_of_The_Sword 07-12-07, 07:51 PM	Well arent the CR's used to detirmine an encounter worthy of a 4 person party? so i doubt that a wizard of that level is able to do that. theyd most likely have to be 80th level to even take it on let alone kill it in one turn.
Wizard Random 07-12-07, 11:15 PM	Well arent the CR's used to detirmine an encounter worthy of a 4 person party? so i doubt that a wizard of that level is able to do that. theyd most likely have to be 80th level to even take it on let alone kill it in one turn. He's joking right?
Think0028 07-13-07, 12:11 AM	Well arent the CR's used to detirmine an encounter worthy of a 4 person party? so i doubt that a wizard of that level is able to do that. theyd most likely have to be 80th level to even take it on let alone kill it in one turn. Ahem. BWAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAH No. I'd be outright SHOCKED if at level 21 it couldn't take it out in one turn. Level 20 I believe in, but don't have a proven case yet. You pretty obviously don't know about standard wizard optimization (live past level 3).
warwinner 07-13-07, 01:58 AM	Wow, too much to take in Where to begin ? First let me Reiterate i accept defeat and no longer am in the challenge, but we can discuss dragon tactics and countertactics with 2 conditions [see below] If guarantee condition isn't there, dragon could roll 1 on saves, roll low etc too much possibilities to handle with variables [B] I say TO ALL, I'm not much for theory or vague endless arguments So let's keep this to clearly, unambiguously worded rules which don't have multiple highly feasible interpretations/possibilities [Something supported by clear rules, errata or [maybe] sage advice is ok] Optional clause - GUARANTEE - I'm thinking the wizard needs a 100% chance to kill the dragon in one round, or very very near to it.Say if you have 90% chance to kill a dragon in one round, then the dragon lives more than 1 round 10% of the time.Is that acceptable ? Well if you think this is about killing a dragon in 1 round with atleast 1% chance, then i withdraw completely from that discussion because that's too much speculation for me Besides having 90% chance to kill a cr20 dragon in one round isn't exactly optimised, is it ? ;) And a question, what point buy is the wizard on, might matter if it comes to guaranteed initiative @djief - Please say what you are doing with each step [while i can assume what you're doing, that may not be the same] Ironheart surge - ? MDJ - To destroy dragon magic items and spells and presumably amf see "guarantee" above as mdj has 1% chance to destroy an amf/caster level, so you need 100 caster level to be guaranteed to break the AMF. [what is the will save dc for MDJ] Coup de grace - What is the save dc [10+damage dealt].How much damage you deal ? If you accept the guarantee, the dragon must get no chance to make it's save @ random wizard - You can't move in because you'll get aooed unless you improvise, so you start within 5ft, shielded cast,invoke magic+shiver touch [dragon has 34SR, if you accept guarantee],great celerity+coup de grace [what is coup de grace save Dc [*Guarantee*] [10+damage dealt], damage, what weapon you use to CDG [one hand must be free to cast spells, one has shield i think]] As far as initiative goes, dragon could have any sorceror spell of 6th or lower [kauper nerves is 1st level sorc IIRC].Any magic items which wizard has increasing init or dex or feats subject to total feat limitation.One advantage dragon has is Superior initiative feat [epic level handbook which negates low dex or wizard racial advantage].So see guarantee, but that's for a non-amf version of dragon which we'll think about if you find a way to guarantee - kill the amf one @ khan - what do you say orb functions normal in the amf, you mean with shielded casting + invoke magic or initiate of mystra feat Also if no amf exists, a dragon has options [with magic items to qualify for Dex prerequisite, got to check this though] Exceptional Deflection [Epic] Prerequisites Dex 21, Wis 19, Deflect Arrows, Improved Unarmed Strike. Benefit You can deflect any ranged attacks (including spells that require ranged touch attacks) as if they were arrows
Wizard Random 07-13-07, 07:34 AM	Please call me Wizard Random or WizR for short I don't see what the big deal is about a AoO? So what when the dragon gets his "1" attack in I take some damage, its not like I don't have enough HP for it. However since this is optimizing lets say the wizard has a few ranks in Tumble, and since he has PLENTLY of skill points to play with its not a problem. So the Wizard makes his DC 15 tumble check to move into touch range no biggie. I then cast a Sudden quicken Invoke Magic and follow up with a Sudden Empowered Shivering Touch, at this point i have to deal with SR but your kidding right>? Just with feats I can have a CL of 25 and that's not including things like Bonded Weapons, Arcane rings or Ioun Stones or things like a Archmages Robe or Third eye of Power Penetration. At level 20 going straight wizard its not hard to have over +60 to beat SR. Now that I have beaten the dragons SR he goes Comatose and I win, however at this point the dragon is not dead but cannot fight anymore so i will bring down the AMF (probably with MDJ) and then hit him with a Sudden Maximized Disintegrate which comes out too 480 damage which is enough to kill him normally after that he only has a 5% chance of making a fort save of 490 to avoid death from the Coup de Grace and then tack on Death from Massive damage. At that point it doesn't matter anymore since the dragon is already dead from just the damage. If a AMF is not present this gets a whole lot easier using things like Astral Projection or Dream Image to engage the dragon in combat without actually being there. When this happens I would close with the dragon as normal and use a Maximized Shivering touch just in case he increased his dex somehow and continue on from there as stated before. That is also assuming i don't have some way to detect magical auras. There is also the option of casting a split ray Avasculate and then following with a Quickened Power Word Kill. That also will instantly kill the dragon in 1 round. +4 Imp Int +10 Dex +2 Quick Recon +2 Eager +2 Eager That's +20 to initiative (25 with skittish nerves) and that's not even trying since its off the top of my head. Even with Superior Initiative he would have maybe a +12. Also the dragon cannot use deflect anything if he is FF or not aware of the attack. Just a FYI
Djief 07-13-07, 09:45 AM	@djief - Please say what you are doing with each step [while i can assume what you're doing, that may not be the same] Ironheart surge - ? MDJ - To destroy dragon magic items and spells and presumably amf see "guarantee" above as mdj has 1% chance to destroy an amf/caster level, so you need 100 caster level to be guaranteed to break the AMF. [what is the will save dc for MDJ] Coup de grace - What is the save dc [10+damage dealt].How much damage you deal ? If you accept the guarantee, the dragon must get no chance to make it's save - Ironheart Surge takes care of the AMF, no check needed (see ToB) - MDJ takes care of any other buffs the dragon may have, doing this cancels my invisibility spell and trigger the Greater Invisibility Contingency - If you really want 100% garrenty on the Coup de Grace, remove 6 wizard level and add 1 rogue and 5 Spellwarp Sniper. Now I need another feat (Point-Blank Shot) but even after that I still have 5 open feats and I Coup de Grace with let's say a Polar Ray (Empowered from SwS class feature) and while we're at it I'll add Sudden Maximize so that should do 114 +(½ 19d6) + 3d6 (157 avg). DC not to die = 167 (136 if minimum roll) I think the dragon's dead now EDIT : While MDJ was mainly for spells in effect on the dragon (no check needed) I realize you're gonna say that he has x or x magic item that protects him from whatever thing I do but I'm not really good at optimizing saves DC so I may end up with too low a save to actually garrenty 100% success unless someone would be kind enough to help me. Anyhow let's start : - Base DC 19 -18 int + 3 age + 6 item + 5 book = 32 (+11) Might as well go with Human paragon (use bonus feat to get Practiced spellcaster just to be sure with SR, note that this will up the DC of the coup de grace) to get another +2 (+12 bonus for a DC 31) - Get spell focus and use Master specialist to get greater one (+2 for DC 33) I don't know exact ways to boost DCs off the top of my head but just from that the dragon should have like 50% chance for every item (The dragon's save is between 20-25 I think)
Djief 07-13-07, 10:10 AM	@ khan - what do you say orb functions normal in the amf, you mean with shielded casting + invoke magic or initiate of mystra feat Also if no amf exists, a dragon has options [with magic items to qualify for Dex prerequisite, got to check this though] huh, no. He means you can cast an orb from outside the AMF and AMF doesn't stop the orb since it's an instantenous conjuration.
warwinner 07-13-07, 11:29 AM	Well i'm really in over my head.My capabilities are stretched and i feel i am not really up to this task. You are wonderful optimisers and i realise my folly thinking there was some quick and easy way to this :bow: That being said splatbooks [each page] keep throwing up possibilities.As a wise man once said, You can do anything if you add enough splatbooks Here are some possibilities i thought up of before well, the magnitude of this task put me off.Note that they may not be correctly explained, even explaining them properly is hard.I haven't even looked up and refined the rules for all of them.Did i say i'm not upto this megatask ? 1] arcane disciple [renewal domain] to get lesser restoration as arcane spell Contingency [sorceror spell] + lesser restoration [activates when dex zeroed] + some other things 2] Melded into stone mountain/very big block [arcane disciple [cavern domain]] in the deep black waters ? which do bad stuff [stormwrack] then casts otilukes resilient sphere with widen or enlarge or something upon himself to try to live for one round 3] Polymorphed into minotaur inside an amf turnable on or off at will as free action [permanent emanation- epic level handbook], If amf dispelled, suppressed polymorph resumes and he casts celerity[natural cunning -not flatfooted] [sorceror 4th IIRC] to do something to save himself [attack, power words in races of dragon [sicken, deafen or something like that] teleport etc] Or not inside amf polymorphed as minotaur and some other tactics 4] Polymorphed into white dragon [immune to shivering touch due to cold subtype] + some other tactics 5] Magic items to counterspell or be immune to certain spells + some other things Then there is indomitability [spell compendium,reduces power of one blow, could be useful in minotaur polymorph vs coup de grace] wings of cover [races of dragon, sorceror only] full cover vs one attack as immediate action [against orbs in minotaur polymorph] etc etc etc And various combos of these.Feel free to consider or bypass them if you are interested.Please leave me out of this :) Let me accept complete defeat :surrender , I accept the dragon is dead even if there might exist possibilities for it to win [Heck i am sure Dancing space robot pirate ninja gods exist somewhere but i can't prove it ever].Let the dragon save itself, i'm leaving I GIVE UP.Show me the exit quick. *Throws books away and runs*
Wizard Random 07-13-07, 11:58 AM	Ray of Weakness can also take him out Maximized it does 11 dex damage, and having the cold subtype won't help on that. I am going to bed as of now and I have to say good job on those tactics Warwinner, i;ll give them a shot later tomorrow.
warwinner 07-13-07, 12:12 PM	Ok one last, only because i forgot to post it 6]Imperious glare [soups up frightful presence, spell compendium] + frightful presence heightening feats items or whatever already cast + some other tactics to hinder wizard I'm sure you people could think of many more if you looked at the problem from the dragon's perspective [possibilities are infinite, but time and sanity are finites] Just leave me out now. No more dragon discussions for me :) [i'm trying hard to run away from some new ideas and combos that are forming in my mind] :) Ray of Weakness can also take him out Maximized it does 11 dex damage, and having the cold subtype won't help on that. I am going to bed as of now and I have to say good job on those tactics Warwinner, i;ll give them a shot later tomorrow. Damn you, i couldn't stop being curious and checked the spell compendium, not only you got the spell wrong [ray of weakness doesn't damage dex] But you made me look at the spells Refusal and ray deflection and then ....:nonono:
Djief 07-13-07, 01:06 PM	1) MDJ cuts your contingency w/o a check 2) Heart of Water and/or Necklace of Adaptation should keep you safe, use blindsight item to see and again MDJ rips your defense appart 3) I can't think of anything to assure this doesn't happen and of course the dragon can always use Celerity -> Teleport to get away but that's like admitting defeat. 4) MDJ strike that down too 5) Short or coming inside own's AMF and then use Invoke Magic/Initiate of Mystra or boosting MDJ save so it's 100% sure the dragon fails it's saves I can't think of anything that shuts down all items in 1 round. 6) You have to actually attack to make use of Frightfull Presence, no? Besides there's plenty of way of getting immunity to fear. Anyhow, someone can always come up with a way to counter any strategy but I think a prepared Wizard can take down pretty much any Black Wyrm short of maybe the most paranoiac ones (I've yet to see a paranoiac dragon, most of them are over-confident).
warwinner 07-13-07, 02:34 PM	Ok last last last one I was looking dejected at black wyrm entry and looking up books to see the existing killing tricks rules fully, so i could sigh loudly ...... YOU WON'T BELIEVE WHAT I FOUND Phb Glossary - A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed Phb glossary - paralyzed: Frozen in place and unable to move or act, such as by the hold person spell. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can’t swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares Monster manual - Immunities (Ex): All dragons have immunity to sleep and paralysis effects. Each variety of dragon has immunity to one or two additional forms of attack no matter what its age, as given in its description. :cheer: If i can believe my eyes, and i can't Now the above could be argued - i don't know, but it is a consolation prize nonetheless atleast there is an argument possible [no i don't want to argue] Some other last and final thoughts@WizR and some disintegrators and orbers 1] Avasculatex2 [split ray] + power word kill not work because http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm average hp=460 Let's not assume epic toughness or max hp etc Even then ray 1 - 460/2 = 230 ray2 = 230/2=115 Power word won't work cos of more hp than 100 2] Consider dr20/magic if applicable 3] Forceward spell or energy immunity/resistance protects vs orbs 4] Dragon still gets it Normal fortitude save vs disintegrate coup de grace and can *surprise* survive the damage [5d6].[Nothing suggests you don't get a save vs spell , srd only says weapons, weapon like spells not covered, hence shouldn't there be the normal spell save, or am i missing a rule] 5] Coup de grace not work vs critical immunes.So change into some crit immune monster or gemstone of heavy fortification [draconomicon page83, 35000gp, works like armor property and negates critical hits & sneak attacks] or dragon could wear barding armor w/ property[draconomicon] 6] If someone Checks all mmanuals and books for for polymorph forms to solve problems, there could exist a perfect fit Note:AMF may or may not combine well with some of the above things [i am not considering the possibilities] Heck i'm thinking this can be done, but i stick with my decision, I quit.No more arguments and dragons for me Hope you've benefited in some way from all this
Djief 07-13-07, 02:56 PM	Having dex of 0 makes you paralyzed yet I doubt we can call that a paralysis effect. IMO a dragon still is paralyzed when he hits dex 0.
warwinner 07-13-07, 03:26 PM	Having dex of 0 makes you paralyzed yet I doubt we can call that a paralysis effect. IMO a dragon still is paralyzed when he hits dex 0. The glossary interpretation could interest pc's laid low by dex damage or something:) It doesn't have to be right, it could be wrong, but just had to post it. Goes to show that a single bad word can change the meaning of everything Rules are a bunch of cobwebs where we are all tangled, Rules are only half in the books and the other half is in our hands[or the DM's].Thus we do as we please with what we are given and sometimes we get things like this You have to actually attack to make use of Frightfull Presence, no? Besides there's plenty of way of getting immunity to fear. Frightful Presence (Ex): A young adult or older dragon can unsettle foes with its mere presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever the dragon attacks, charges, or flies overhead. Creatures within a radius of 30 feet × the dragon’s age category are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than the dragon. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 dragon’s HD + dragon’s Cha modifier) remains immune to that dragon’s frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds
warwinner 07-13-07, 04:49 PM	Interesting items that protect from/heal ability damage [from magic item compendium] for information purposes, Hmm i wonder if these are in surreal's lists. They DO Get saves vs MDJ ;) 1] Scarab of invulnerability 2] orb of mental renewal 3] Rod of bodily restoration 4] Talisman of undying fortitude 5] Wraith's woe set Now Anybody want to help in making a mathematical or probability formula to find the number of possibilities/combos we get when we consider an rules problem, like the one in this thread :P
Khan the Destroyer 07-13-07, 10:00 PM	Mage Slayer lowers your caster level, not your levels in the spellcasting class. It's like a reverse Practiced Spellcaster, really. JaronK Correct. But in order to cast a spell, you need to cast it at a caster level high enough to be able to cast it in the first place (I feel like I could have said that better). In order to cast Antimagic Field, a 6th level sorcerer spell, you'd need a caster level of 12, the level that you can cast 6th level spells at as a sorcerer. If your caster level is below this, you can't cast 6th level spells. It's on page 171 of the PHB, under Caster Level. With Mage Slayer, the dragon's caster level goes from 13 to 9, allowing him to only cast 4th level spells.
warwinner 07-14-07, 12:59 AM	spellcasting harrier instead of mageslayer or practiced spellcaster [sorceror] solves the problem.
Tempest Stormwind 07-14-07, 03:16 AM	Warwinner: Even if you do consider it a paralysis effect (which is silly, since those are things that induce paralysis, not things that paralysis is characteristic of), there's an RAW counter. "Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/naturalSpecialAbilities.htm#abilityScore Loss) Dragon's still toast.
Wizard Random 07-14-07, 07:21 AM	spellcasting harrier instead of mageslayer or practiced spellcaster [sorceror] solves the problem. Again Shielded Casting = Win Not Ray of Weakness eh? I am sure there was a 2nd level spell that ended up doing 1d6+5 dex damage I am positive. Can't think of the name though.... Also with a Weapon Like Spell you can Crit and Coup de Grace, meaning if the dragon is helpless he has to make a fort save of 10+damage dealt (in this case 80d6 maxamized is alot of damage) or die, that is of course if he doesn't die from the damage itself.
warwinner 07-14-07, 10:46 AM	@ tempest, I quitted like i said, but check draconomicon and you'll see for every dragon [including sample black dragons] Immune to sleep effects and paralysisDoesn't even say "effect". So polymorph into a draconomicon black dragon ? Yeah it's silly, but hey for optimisers it's RAW and not common sense or logic or if it's silly that matters ;) Helpless A helpless character is paralyzed So my RAW vs your RAW counter, whose RAW is right :P [Joke - don't bother answering, same for the above] @wizr, well i was talking about this Disintegrate Effect: Ray Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Fortitude partial Srd doesn't say about weapon like spells in srd, so if they used in coup de grace they should give that save above for partial, No ? You cast disintegrate to CDG, dragon gets to save, then weapon like spell does damage and crits Or is there a rule that says spells used to CDG don't allow their normal save . Where ?
Wizard Random 07-14-07, 10:53 AM	Yea he gets a save, i just used Disintegrate because it did the most damage at level 20 off the top of my head. Somethign else is viable though, even if he saves it still turns into 10d6 or 60 Maxed, which turns into a DC 70 fort save, at that point he has to roll a 20 to survive.
warwinner 07-14-07, 12:54 PM	@ WizR Let's clear up your last solution,Let it be the last solution, think of no more:weep:Please Can you give an action roundup of the whole thing [i.e swift action, full round action summary of your procedure] vs amf dragon [or suppressed-polymorphed as minotaur in amf] I.e Round 1 Normal - disjunction w/ sudden quickening [swift] invoke magic [immediate] etc Keep these in mind Casting invoke magic is a swift action, like casting a quickened spell. You can perform only one swift action each round. Normally, you cast invoke magic and then immediately follow it by casting another spell as a standard action Swift Action: You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. However, you can perform only a single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take Casting a quickened spell is a swift action (instead of a free action, as stated in the Quicken Spell feat description in the Player’s Handbook). In addition, casting any spell with a casting time of 1 swift action (such as aiming at the target) is a swift action. Immediate Action: Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn) Celerity [all types] is an immediate action Touch attack with shivering touch is standard action Coupdegrace is fullround action
Tempest Stormwind 07-14-07, 01:49 PM	@ tempest, I quitted like i said, but check draconomicon and you'll see for every dragon [including sample black dragons] Doesn't even say "effect". So polymorph into a draconomicon black dragon ? Yeah it's silly, but hey for optimisers it's RAW and not common sense or logic or if it's silly that matters ;) So my RAW vs your RAW counter, whose RAW is right :P [Joke - don't bother answering, same for the above] Nah, I'll answer. Even if he's not paralyzed from being Helpless, he's still Helpless (and thus a valid target for a CdG). Furthermore, my SRD quote above holds him motionless even if he isn't paralyzed.
warwinner 07-14-07, 03:14 PM	Nah, I'll answer. I knew it :) No strategy IIRC i posted before assumes dex0 no-paralysis, but depends on immunity to critical hits [and thus coup de grace] via polymorph [something immune] gemstone of fortification barding of heavy fortification, amf etc And maybe action deficit [see latest post] when amf is there [i.e only std action, swift action in a round useful to cast spells[2max] + you have to CDG and destroy AMF if need be Reducing an ability score to 0 is not considered to be a "Paralysis Effect" for the purposes of draconic immunity. Therefore a dragon is not immune. Hold Person spell, paralyzing poison, the touch or attacks from some creatures are all considered to be "Paralysis Effects" and dragons are immune to these however. But not to reducing their dexterity to 0 by means which reduce dexterity Give custserv some credit, they're right many a time, john.k if it matters. Now i'll send them the draconomicon one with "immune to paralysis" ... hmm maybe not
warwinner 07-15-07, 12:10 AM	I was checking out Fc2 to plan pc vs devil fight setting Anybody who says the pazuzu trick works, you've to accept this :) Fiendish codex2 Page 68 Grenpoli city - malabolge in 6th layer of hell spells that deal hit point or ability damage do not work within the city, and all summoning spells automatically fail Just FYI, nothing more
NiteCyper 07-15-07, 02:10 AM	Shadowcraft Illusionist. Why is Shivering Touch so cheap? 3d6 Dex damage is a crap load. Sudden Maximize that. Maybe even Mr. Roboto legion.
Wizard Random 07-16-07, 12:59 PM	Hey Warwinner I neglected to mention the fact that in my Avasculate idea I was using a Belt of Battle to gain the actions required to pull it off. Just a FYI since you asked.
Think0028 07-16-07, 10:14 PM	I was checking out Fc2 to plan pc vs devil fight setting Anybody who says the pazuzu trick works, you've to accept this :) Just FYI, nothing more ... and why does that matter, perchance?
The_Mad_Linguist 07-16-07, 11:14 PM	Three easy steps to killing a dragon 1) Mind control a low level character. Use modify memory for added value. 2) Force the character to use high level magic items to steal a valuable gem encrusted object from the dragon's horde 3) Cast trap the soul on said object There are now two outcomes a) The dragon is worried, and never comes for his property. In this case, he's scared of low level characters, you may spread the word that he can't hang on to his treasure, and other treasure-hungry dragons will tear him apart in an attempt to get to it first. Oh, and you can keep whatever valuable object you stole. Win! b) The dragon comes for his treasure. Easily Kills the lowbie and takes back his gem. His soul (and hoard) is yours. Win! Or you could just spam minor creation and fill his cave with black lotus extract.
warwinner 07-17-07, 02:02 AM	... and why does that matter, perchance? The dragon's safe from orbs and shivering touches there.And he can have his amf up too.He will be safe for one round atleast ;) Hey Warwinner I neglected to mention the fact that in my Avasculate idea I was using a Belt of Battle to gain the actions required to pull it off. Just a FYI since you asked. Avasculate split ray + power word ? that fails to work as i posted before, unless i'm missing what you're doing with battle belt 1] Avasculatex2 [split ray] + power word kill not work because http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm average hp=460 Let's not assume epic toughness or max hp etc Even then ray 1 - 460/2 = 230 ray2 = 230/2=115 Power word won't work cos of more hp than 100 I was thinking of your invoke magic/shivering touch/mdj/celerity/CDG or something combo.I can't figure how it works when an AMF is up
Wizard Random 07-17-07, 09:27 AM	Well i figure it would be something like 1) Burn belt of battle to gain a Full Round Action 2) Use Move Action #1 to walk into AMF and within melee distance. 3) Use Standard Action #1 to cast Invoke Magic + Shivering Touch 4) Coup de Grace, it can even be with a Orb spell for extra fun. At this point I used one tumble check to move into position, and had a shield to prevent a AoO from casting.
BoSheck 07-17-07, 11:27 AM	Spellblade: Shivering touch (Greater. Or whatever, I'm sure that a CR 20 dragon can afford a few +6000 gp swords, and with this tactic being so popular, which one who has lived for so long wouldn't? Bonus points: That wizard better be ready for some massive dex damage back. I don't think legend lore would entail the wizard knowing about a piddly little <10000gp item, so there's little reason for our confident bookworm to suspect it. Or are there better info-gathering spells? (Not that I disagree that a wizard -could- kill said dragon in one round, I just like playing devil's advocate.)
warwinner 07-17-07, 02:04 PM	Well i figure it would be something like 1) Burn belt of battle to gain a Full Round Action 2) Use Move Action #1 to walk into AMF and within melee distance. 3) Use Standard Action #1 to cast Invoke Magic + Shivering Touch 4) Coup de Grace, it can even be with a Orb spell for extra fun. At this point I used one tumble check to move into position, and had a shield to prevent a AoO from casting. Oh, damn, i thought belt only gave standard action.Now that i read it, everyone should have one :) Clear as daylight, the dragon's dead and gone, shoo [i'm now on the wizard's side ;) only cos defending a dragon is hard work]
The_Mad_Linguist 07-17-07, 05:47 PM	There's also Chuck, from the CO response to fastest speed thread.
Tempest Stormwind 07-17-07, 09:41 PM	There's also Chuck, from the CO response to fastest speed thread. THAT is a thread that could serve to have its first post updated. I have a devil of a time finding a unified build presented in that thread.
Beleriphon 07-18-07, 07:21 AM	I've appended the first post with warwinner's suggestion. The dragon can only have a 1 in 10 chance of surviving the encounter for one round for the wizard to be considered successful.