Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mechades 06-06-07, 02:54 PM	I've recently got a itch to design a campaign loosely based off the Pirates of the Caribbean films. However, I'm unsure of how to design the mechanics, especially combat and magic. Right now, I'm favoring a low-magic style campaign, because while it might be entertaining to see a Jack Sparrow clone let lose a fireball, it would not have the same flavor as the films and source material. Combat is a another thing I'm having a bit of trouble with, as AC for most of the characters would be pretty low, considering the lack of armor. Any advice or suggestions?
i_am_some_guy 06-06-07, 04:31 PM	Have only Divine magic -- no arcane. Use D20 Modern with D20 past. Characters have a Defense Bonus that increases as they level.
Mechades 06-06-07, 06:12 PM	Hmm, sounds good. I've been looking for an excuse to do a D20 Modern style campaign anyway :D . Thanks for the input.
NerdNumber1 06-07-07, 11:15 PM	All magic should be left for artifacts and plot devices (such as the goddess in mortal form (forgot the name) or the cursed gold of Cortez(sp?)). I was leaning a little toward D&D, but mainly because I have the books. The money has to be more D&D-like (no purchase-DC crap in pirates).
i_am_some_guy 06-08-07, 12:16 AM	All magic should be left for artifacts and plot devices (such as the goddess in mortal form (forgot the name) or the cursed gold of Cortez(sp?)). I was leaning a little toward D&D, but mainly because I have the books. The money has to be more D&D-like (no purchase-DC crap in pirates). Agree -- but you should do research for money of the period and make it that way Magic should be very restrictive; vodoo type magic that isn't "cast in combat" -- a good easy rule is to make casting time 1 day (all day ritual)
Giradius 06-08-07, 02:59 PM	There is already a swashbuckling game based around pirates called "swashbuckling adventures" that is based in a world similar to real life earth of the period, it has all the rules for magic and advanced swordsmanship and schools of fencing. if you are wanting something a little more tailored to your own needs (and also don’t want to spend money on something that is fun to come up with on your own anyway) then I have a few suggestions. find as many combat feats as possible to add flavour to swordsmanship, perhaps a few prestige classes renamed could be advantageous (weapon master from oriental adventures becomes swordsman) with regard to magic, keep it low magic and keep the monsters restrained to a minimum and within the context of the setting (things like sahuagin, undead, fiendish krakens, aquatic trolls maybe), I also see no reason for banning arcane magic, after all if its based on the real world of the 1600s then magic and superstition should be rife as it was at the time. a low magic setting does not mean that you have to lower the level of magic but merely cherry pick spell lists (and reassign a school). use sorcerer as your only spell casting class (perhaps include clergyman or exorcist from masque of the red death to represent the very rare divine spell casters). use the variant rules from unearthed arcana for spell points, and triple casting times once you have your sorcerer ask them choose a "path" (which basically is the philosophical/traditional/historical body of knowledge that the magic comes from), this tradition will have a spell list and maybe a few feats that become available, as well as alternatives to familiars, class skills and other flavourings (like language traditionally used by that path). some examples of "paths" or "traditions" if you like could be as follows Voodoo- some protection spells (gris gris) self enhancement buffs (riding the spirit) some necromancy and some healing magic black magic- mostly attack spells from the necromancy school, and self empowerment, some conjuration. Paganism- choose a pantheon, which will have a choice of domains (Aztec pantheon sun/sky/death), (Indian spirit guides Animal/plant/healing) etc there are lots of good spells that would fit in well, that can be found in other books like magic of faerun etc, one excellent one I saw in a book (necromancy I think it was) was "raise dread galleon" which raises a sunken vessel from the bottom of the sea and reanimates its crew as intelligent zombies. Most of the monsters from the D&D monster manuals have their origins in mythology, so krakens and strange creatures of the Caribbean can be found already (like Su monsters and catoblepas's)
spyone 06-09-07, 03:03 AM	For the Armor Class, use a Defense Bonus such as that described in Unearthed Arcana (and Open Content, thus available on the websites that provide the SRD like www.systemreferencedocuments.org ) as well as several other d20 games, like BESMd20, A Game of Thrones, and other settings where folks don't commonly run about wearing a ton of metal for defense. It is intended to reflect the increased ability of unarmored folks to dodge, sorta. From what I've seen (Shocking admission: I haven't seen the films. Any of them.), there definitely is magic in the world (undead and such), but none of it appears to be in the hands of PCs. And I'll add a second voice suggesting that Swashbuckling Adventures from AEG is probably worth a look at: it may not be what you're looking for, but it will probably have a few useful ideas.
Giradius 06-09-07, 08:00 AM	The use of a defence bonus instead of armour is definitely the way to go, perhaps even use a variant of the star wars rule that gives a defence bonus for having a drawn lightsaber (obviously it should be a sword and only applied to melee armour class to represent a readiness to parry or defensive fencing stance), there is definitely magic in the setting and although the 3 main characters (Jack Sparrow, Will Turner, and Elizabeth Swann) do not use it in any real way (jack carries at least 2 magic items) The compass and the trinket used by the pirate lords to bind Calypso, maybe he has other, maybe his hat is lucky? he also has many strange tattoos and face make up at times implying talismanic thinking, remember this is the superstitious 1700s other characters in the background either use it or are inherently magical. depending on what film you watch you can take it which ever way you wish, for example dead mans chest portrays Tia Dalma as a voodoo witch. (however I suspect owing to moral/political correctness reasons this was changed to a more acceptable fantasy element, the reasoning was probably either that black magic is too risqué a subject for an ally of the heroes, or that because of the number of practicing voodoo believers it was considered un PC) Tia Dalma uses magic several times. Davy Jones is definitely a magical character and if you look at what he is and has done. By cutting out his own heart and gaining special abilities, keeping it hidden, and it being his only weak point, the evidence suggests Davy Jones is some form of Lich (fiendish or aberration instead of undead)and his heart is his phylactery. he also had the knowledge of how to bind a powerful outsider (Calypso) into human form, and has the ability to command the kraken Captain Barbosa in clearly your standard undead pirate. This is obvious in the first film and hinted in the third (when Tia dalma grabs his wrist his hand becomes rotten and skeletal again so either he is undead and masked by illusion magic (my own standpoint/as Tia dalma "brought him back" and I doubt that true resurrection would be used as it would offend too many people, and Tia Dalma in the second film is clearly more voodoo based) or Tia dalma has used some necromancy based attack like withering as I mentioned before it was a period of great superstition, and if magic works (which is clearly does) and bogey men exist (which they clearly do) then it would be strange to leave it out, it just has to be handled properly and kept in context and have more limits (longer casting times, school skill rolls to cast, and greater cost, perhaps increase the power point cost by 50%). A final note is that just because the 3 characters focused on in the films aren’t "magic users" as such doesn’t mean it isn’t there, the cursed gold of Cortez had a maker (or enchanter), the Compass had a maker, it is there but unlike in standard Fantasy setting it is not a prime focus s the emphasis is on swashbuckling and piracy, to put too much emphasis on magic would steal the limelight.
skree 06-09-07, 03:28 PM	you maight want to check out green ronin publishings Skull and bones,,
NerdNumber1 06-09-07, 07:01 PM	There is already a swashbuckling game based around pirates called "swashbuckling adventures" that is based in a world similar to real life earth of the period, it has all the rules for magic and advanced swordsmanship and schools of fencing. if you are wanting something a little more tailored to your own needs (and also don’t want to spend money on something that is fun to come up with on your own anyway) then I have a few suggestions. find as many combat feats as possible to add flavour to swordsmanship, perhaps a few prestige classes renamed could be advantageous (weapon master from oriental adventures becomes swordsman) with regard to magic, keep it low magic and keep the monsters restrained to a minimum and within the context of the setting (things like sahuagin, undead, fiendish krakens, aquatic trolls maybe), I also see no reason for banning arcane magic, after all if its based on the real world of the 1600s then magic and superstition should be rife as it was at the time. a low magic setting does not mean that you have to lower the level of magic but merely cherry pick spell lists (and reassign a school). use sorcerer as your only spell casting class (perhaps include clergyman or exorcist from masque of the red death to represent the very rare divine spell casters). use the variant rules from unearthed arcana for spell points, and triple casting times once you have your sorcerer ask them choose a "path" (which basically is the philosophical/traditional/historical body of knowledge that the magic comes from), this tradition will have a spell list and maybe a few feats that become available, as well as alternatives to familiars, class skills and other flavourings (like language traditionally used by that path). some examples of "paths" or "traditions" if you like could be as follows Voodoo- some protection spells (gris gris) self enhancement buffs (riding the spirit) some necromancy and some healing magic black magic- mostly attack spells from the necromancy school, and self empowerment, some conjuration. Paganism- choose a pantheon, which will have a choice of domains (Aztec pantheon sun/sky/death), (Indian spirit guides Animal/plant/healing) etc there are lots of good spells that would fit in well, that can be found in other books like magic of faerun etc, one excellent one I saw in a book (necromancy I think it was) was "raise dread galleon" which raises a sunken vessel from the bottom of the sea and reanimates its crew as intelligent zombies. Most of the monsters from the D&D monster manuals have their origins in mythology, so krakens and strange creatures of the Caribbean can be found already (like Su monsters and catoblepas's) Here is the only magic things that I could find: Calypso (the witch) could use powerful magic, but happened to be a goddess, trapped in mortal form. The cursed gold of Cortez was able to curse the entire Black Pearl crew, but was cursed by the gods to punish the greed of Cortez. Davy Jones, the Flying Dutchman Jack's magic compass None of these are readily available, so I would say no spells for the PCs. Magical items, on the other hand, will be found occassionally in treasure. But don't worry, there will be enough guns and bombs for blowing stuff up. A few elements I would have are: Action points: Every movie Jack Sparrow does something that would fail horribly 90% of the time (which would change heroic feat into "a short drop and a quick stop"). d20 Modern basic classes: Many of the character classes in d&d doesn't fit with a pirates game (also half of them are spell casters) and if you only usd the ones left, it would be a boring game (how many rogue, swash-buklers and dulists can we have?). New expanded classes: No techies, mages, etc. D&D-like currency system: If you don't have the gold, you don't get what you want. I suggest period money. D&D DMG black powder weapons, d&d swords(+other weapons), and hombrew Make sure every adventure has something legendary in it.
Giradius 06-10-07, 08:29 AM	I pointed out several uses of magic including necromancy, and Lich creation, read the bits hidden by the spoiler tabs. Regarding Calypso (or Tia Dalma in the other film) i have already postulated that it is fear of offence which made them ret con Tia Dalma, (offending christians with the inclusion of voodoo into the heroes resources and Voodoo practitioners which are more numerous in the USA than you would think). the gold of cortez you have to listen to what is actually said , Montezuma called on his heathen gods, is not the same as the gods cursed it, a great many magical traditions have their roots in religious ideology (such as wicca, druidry, Kabbalah, Gnosticism, shamanism) so it is quite accurate that aztec magic would be sanctioned by the gods (as it was in ancient egypt where priest and sorceror were the same thing). Davy Jones clerly knows more than he is letting on, owing to him telling the pirate lords how to bind Calypso (how would a sailor know how to bind and force a powerful outsider into a mortal form), the fact that magic works and is present in the setting (which is based on the real world) should be legitimate reason to include it, you just have to water it down and keep the focus OFF magic (unlike playing a forgotten realms campaign) and on the swashbuckling Errol Flynn pirate elements. we must be wary of falling into the trap of excluding something because non of the characters of focus are part of it, there is a lot of cool stuff in the background of many settings (like Boba Fett who is a actually a very minor character but whose popularity made George Lucas expand on him in the prequels)
NerdNumber1 06-10-07, 02:26 PM	I pointed out several uses of magic including necromancy, and Lich creation, read the bits hidden by the spoiler tabs. Regarding Calypso (or Tia Dalma in the other film) i have already postulated that it is fear of offence which made them ret con Tia Dalma, (offending christians with the inclusion of voodoo into the heroes resources and Voodoo practitioners which are more numerous in the USA than you would think). the gold of cortez you have to listen to what is actually said , Montezuma called on his heathen gods, is not the same as the gods cursed it, a great many magical traditions have their roots in religious ideology (such as wicca, druidry, Kabbalah, Gnosticism, shamanism) so it is quite accurate that aztec magic would be sanctioned by the gods (as it was in ancient egypt where priest and sorceror were the same thing). Davy Jones clerly knows more than he is letting on, owing to him telling the pirate lords how to bind Calypso (how would a sailor know how to bind and force a powerful outsider into a mortal form), the fact that magic works and is present in the setting (which is based on the real world) should be legitimate reason to include it, you just have to water it down and keep the focus OFF magic (unlike playing a forgotten realms campaign) and on the swashbuckling Errol Flynn pirate elements. we must be wary of falling into the trap of excluding something because non of the characters of focus are part of it, there is a lot of cool stuff in the background of many settings (like Boba Fett who is a actually a very minor character but whose popularity made George Lucas expand on him in the prequels) I'm not saying no magic. I'm just saying leave it to plot-specific items and the occassional trinket/artifact. Also, rare ritual-magic might work too, but no actual spellcaster classes (fireball would make epic ship battles a bit boring).
Giradius 06-10-07, 04:54 PM	I totally agree, Magic must be highly regulated and modified from that of standard Fantasy wizard or a modern supernatural games Diabolist. I see it functioning as ritual magic as you say but also see the inclusion of limited spell casting, as i said in a previous post the spell lists must be HEAVILY edited. Imagine the party searching for a legendary treasure, the object of the entire campaign, they go ashore to the mysterious island that can only be found during a full moon and explore. they upon a ruined ziggurat of aztec design and begin to climb the steps to the top. at that moment a high pitched cry is heard as several stange figures in aztec style dress come charging down the step toward them and walking slowly behind is an aztec with a tall headress, he begins chanting and waving a stained red hand toward the sky as it darkens, the pcs engage and dispatch the aztec guards and elder extends his arm gesturing with a claw like hand as one of the party drops to ground holding his chest, the red stained hand of the elder begins to drip with gore as the party memebr screams clutching his chest. no fireballs or lightning bolts, it would defeat the need for cannons and pistols and the focus is on piracy and sword fghting not sorcery, but subtle magic would be acceptible. perhaps if you are using D20 modern characters use the first 10 levels of sorceror as an advanced class that way you dont get any spells higher than level 5 anyway, and with a cherry picked spell list with most evocation/illusion spells removed a long with a few others that dont fit and a few suitable spells from the druid and cleric lists included you could would have a usable Voodoo Hougnan or perhaps the last of the aztec priesthood that has handed down the secrets of magic from father to son for generations. It should definatly be RARE and WATERED DOWN but not excluded completley.
NerdNumber1 06-10-07, 11:11 PM	I totally agree, Magic must be highly regulated and modified from that of standard Fantasy wizard or a modern supernatural games Diabolist. I see it functioning as ritual magic as you say but also see the inclusion of limited spell casting, as i said in a previous post the spell lists must be HEAVILY edited. Imagine the party searching for a legendary treasure, the object of the entire campaign, they go ashore to the mysterious island that can only be found during a full moon and explore. they upon a ruined ziggurat of aztec design and begin to climb the steps to the top. at that moment a high pitched cry is heard as several stange figures in aztec style dress come charging down the step toward them and walking slowly behind is an aztec with a tall headress, he begins chanting and waving a stained red hand toward the sky as it darkens, the pcs engage and dispatch the aztec guards and elder extends his arm gesturing with a claw like hand as one of the party drops to ground holding his chest, the red stained hand of the elder begins to drip with gore as the party memebr screams clutching his chest. no fireballs or lightning bolts, it would defeat the need for cannons and pistols and the focus is on piracy and sword fghting not sorcery, but subtle magic would be acceptible. perhaps if you are using D20 modern characters use the first 10 levels of sorceror as an advanced class that way you dont get any spells higher than level 5 anyway, and with a cherry picked spell list with most evocation/illusion spells removed a long with a few others that dont fit and a few suitable spells from the druid and cleric lists included you could would have a usable Voodoo Hougnan or perhaps the last of the aztec priesthood that has handed down the secrets of magic from father to son for generations. It should definatly be RARE and WATERED DOWN but not excluded completley. I totally forgot about NPC villians! Of course there should be a few mystics and fiends. A little magic goes a long way on a ship, though. A few Kelgore's firebolts, magic missles, scorching rays, etc. could cripple a ship or its crew. There is an interesting spell in Libris Mortis called Clutch of Orcus (p63) which slowly crushes the enemies heart, paralizing and slowly damaging him or her until they can break free of the spell. If someone is killed by the spell, their smoking heart appears in the caster's hand. This seems almost exactly like what you described in your example. It is also exciting, yet non-overpowering. "We must stop the caster or else our healer will die!"
Giradius 06-11-07, 10:15 PM	A few Kelgore's firebolts, magic missles, scorching rays, etc. could cripple a ship or its crew. Absolutley, thats why this type of spell would NOT be on any spell lists, they are fine for a high magic fantasy setting (i myself prefer low magic fantasy anyway, too much magic lessens the effect), but spells like Clutch of Orcus, Spirit worm (from Faerun causes a loss of 1 con per round) and other more insidious and grusome but not over powered spells, as i said cap the spells at level 5 with the most flamboyant being things like weather control or animate dead (especially good for voodoo type characters). Owing to the superstition of the times (and sailors were especialy superstitious) a possible magical path could be... Esoteric lore of the sea: which is the collected supernatural knowledge of sailors from around the world, spread since the earliest men took to the waves. It covers things like good luck charms, dispelling bad luck at sea, seeing signs and portents etc, it could also have some origins in the craft of sea hags (an absolute must for any pirates campaign). keep the flash bang stuff in D&D but include some elements suitable for voodoo, aztec sorcery, native american shamanism (as native americans still live in big numbers at this point in history), and other more "folky" traditions from around the world (pirates get around). I will have to post a possible spell list that would be appropriate for this type of game and some expanded rules for ritual magic, and alternatives to the familiar class feature.
NerdNumber1 06-12-07, 12:40 PM	Here's some more offensive spells that are kind of flashy, but not overpowering (at least not at high levels) in a world of firearms: Black Karma Curse (phb2-p103): Making someone stab themselves (if delivered correctly) can be a horrifying thought, but it isn't too damaging. Cloud of Knives (phb2-p107): It may not do that much damage compared to mundane attacks, but the picture shown in its entry alone can be prety cool. Evard's Menacing Tentacles (phb2-p113): Same basic thing as cloud of knives, but lose the range and instead attack with tentacles growing out of your back (it reminds me of Davy Jones and his crew for some reason ;)). Produce Flame (phb-p265): While about equal to mundane weapons, there is still people throwing balls of fire! Ray of Frost/Acid Splash: Nothing better than a good pistol or even a throwing weapon. Please note that these spells should be in the hands of opposing NPCs only (even more powerful spells, such as animate dead, might not be out of the question). Any PC magic would be subtle and/or take a large set-up. Maybe something to ward away bad luck (a temporary action point or a reroll). Also some blessings that keep undead at bay (+4 ac against undead attacks?) would work.
Giradius 06-12-07, 03:01 PM	the trouble with only npc villians using this kind of thing is that you assume the players are going to be anti magic! (or anti black magic anyway) and as i said before sailors have ALWAYS been very superstitious , but these are pirates we are talking about and despite the romanticism were not very nice people. I personally can imagine a vile pirate Edgar "Bloodbeard" Hampton, who dyes his beard red with the blood of those unlucky enough to encounter his ship "The Hellstorm", his crew made up of the worst kind of murderers thieves and scum not to mention the voodoo priest "Papa Abobo" who was exiled from Haiti for crimes too numerous to mention, he is now ships chaplain and "The Hellstorm" has evaded capture many times due to freak storms preventing persuit... I personally feel that Pirate of the Carribean has more in common with the secret of monkey island than a log flume in disney land. That featured an undead pirate (LeChuck/Barbosa) the most useless pirate in the world who somehow always seems to get away with it (Guybrush/Jack Sparrow) the female Governor (or daughter of the Governer) and a voodoo woman (the voodoo woman/Tia Dalma). Of course at the end of the day it comes down to personal taste whether you include the capacity for players to use magic, i personally would create a custom class that has limited use of a limited spell list and allow the party to have one (i feel more than 1 magic user in the party is pushing it a bit) after all in "at worlds end" they Travel with Tia Dalma (the party magic user) for some time. Its just a matter of access, if i submit a "Hougnan" class then its up to the DM if its NPC only or if a player can choose. perhaps a modified spirit shaman would be suitable as a base for a devotee of Voodoo.
NerdNumber1 06-14-07, 06:01 PM	In Pirates of the Caribean, all the magic was reserved to divine beings, rituals given by the guide of souls lost at sea (that was Davy's job before he went rogue), and items made by divine beings. I think that the secrets of such magic would not be given to just anyone and I don't want a half-dozen witches on the ship that sling spells so much that they don't need a back-up weapon. Most Voodoo spells in popular culture are more subtle. What about ceremony feats? Maybe a class that gives bonus, and discounted, ceremony, paliden-like healing abilities, etc. This way, there are no actual spells, but enough magic to keep characters alive and buff them up. Subtle offensive spell-like abilities could also be thrown in. Flashy spells should be something to be feared, in my oppinion. I want players to sweat the second a ball of fire is thrown, even if it is normally a first level spell. If magic is reserved to things we can't do with gun-powder, all our needs are met and we can still keep the flashy, offensive spells scary.
Giradius 06-14-07, 07:21 PM	Hmmmmm i would disagree that all magic in the setting is divine The Pirate lords binding of Calypso, and Davy Jones's Lichlike transformation being 2 examples I also feel that you are focusing too much on the film, Just because non divine magic is not used in any big way by the handful of characters that the film follows around does not mean that NOBODY in the entire world of the setting doesnt, The fact that magickal traditions exist in this world is sufficient for me to allow a magic using class (after all if the supernatural DOES exist in the Pirates universe then it would be illogical to say magic doesnt). And to idea of a group of witches sinking ships, i have already said that magic should be kept very rare with perhaps only one magic user around at anyone time (except maybe an npc villain, or an npc covey of sea hags to shipwreck the party as part of the plot), if magic was as useful or accessible as it is in standard fantasy there would be no cannons or technological development because it would not be needed, technology is there to make up for lack of natural ability or to enhance natural ability. Perhaps an additional cost like those involved masque of the red death or ravenloft, a modified form of powers check to prevent frequent and needless use of magic, meaning it used only when realy needed. I also feel that combat based healing spells would not be appropriate and nor would most offensive spells, however a spell that triples natural healing is appropriate and although a fireball is way too much some weather control would give your traveling speeds a boost, as is the use of magic repel or command the undead, in short most magic that would be used in fight is out of context and unbalancing however utilitarian magic out of combat (such as the use of a sacred herb to breath underwater to find a treasure, or asking a Hougnan to "cast the bones" to reveal a good or bad omen) is fully justified . An additional point i feel must be added is that it is only D&D which places a distinction between Arcane and divine magick and the use of magic items or artefacts when in actual metaphysical and occult traditions there is no such destinction and often a blurring of all three (The Kabbalah being a magical tradition that uses magic that is both sanctioned and provided by God with various items being considered extensions of the Kabbalists self ,and also the Galdr traditions of the Norse in that the runes were given by the God Odin for use in magic) One of my projects in the pipeline is to create a magic system that has more of the feel and taste of existing magical and mystical traditions for use in contemporary or ancient real world settings. But as i have said before it comes down to personal preference, i will contribute to content on the use of magic and you can either use it or not use it depending on the sort of game you want. There is something to be said for ABSOLUTE ZERO magic settings and campaigns, but i feel that a setting that has Krakens,Pagan Deities,and the Undead already has a great deal of magic in it and so stopping short of working voodoo is a bit strange.
NerdNumber1 06-14-07, 11:49 PM	Even the arcane aspects were given by a goddess or a goddess's boyfriend. I think that the secrets of magic are held by the divine entities and they only slip a few secrets when it is profitable. The ceremony feats allow full-day bonuses, but don't require actual spell-casting ability. They only require a feat, ranks of knowlege skills, and some mildly expensive components. Make a few of those, some healing class effects, cheaper rituals, and maybe some spell-like abilities (can you tell that I want to avoid the standard spell-list. I don't know why, maybe to make this game different.) I wish that D&D would work better into this game, I'm more familiar with it.
Giradius 06-15-07, 01:00 PM	Nerdnmber1 are you actually reading my posts, you dont seem to be from your answers? I have said repeatedly that the standard spell lists are no good for this type of game and that a more specialised spell list should be used, one that has had every spell specially chosen for its effect on balance and more importantly suitablity to the setting. combat based healing is right out.......If magical healing on that level worked there would be no medicene and everyone would be a magic user. as i have also said before spell casting would not work the same way as D&D- the variant rules for powerpoints instead of spell slots should be used, casting times would be increased to the point where animate dead would take 2 hours to cast (making it a ritual). And there would be a saving throw involved with using anymagic, perhaps using variant rules for corruption, insanity, or modified powers check (like ravenloft)... Any one who goes around using magic recklessly will suffer for it. Regarding your point about Calypso.... It makes no difference whatsoever... the fact that arcane magic is not focused on in the films does not mean it doesnt exist in the setting (You dont see Tigers but it would be stupid to say they dont exst given that other animals do), and as i said before ONLY D&D MAKES THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN ARCANE AND DIVINE MAGIC, REAL MAGICAL TRADITIONS DO NO SUCH THING, THERE IS JUST MAGIC! and the point i made before about Krakens existing, undead existing, pagan deities existing, magic artefacts existing yet magical arts not existing (despite the fact that we live in the real world and people believe in magic) is not only foolish but illogical. You also assume that while bound in human form she is still capible of using divine magic! if she was, it is doubtful she could be bound in any form against her will, she would just shapeshift (which she is capible of in goddess form) and what was all the voodoo paraphenalia in her hut used for, decorations. She lost her power when she was bound and had to resort to using mortal magics (Exactly like Gandalf in lord of the rings, a divine being stripped of power and forced to use the magic in middle earth) Finally i will repeat myself one more time, IF YOU DONT WANT MAGIC IN THE SETTING, DONT USE IT. ITS YOUR GAME!, ITS YOUR RULES!, ITS YOUR CHOICE!
Holy_Beholder 06-15-07, 07:09 PM	You also assume that while bound in human form she is still capible of using divine magic! if she was, it is doubtful she could be bound in any form against her will, she would just shapeshift (which she is capible of in goddess form) and what was all the voodoo paraphenalia in her hut used for, decorations. She lost her power when she was bound and had to resort to using mortal magics Except it worked for her because she was a goddess. Nobody else could use any magic whatsoever, it was all in the hands of the gods. Basically she was a cleric that accessed her own power, then regained divine power, allowing deific effects. Mortals never had any magic, she was the only one and was a godess.
Giradius 06-15-07, 11:39 PM	Except it worked for her because she was a goddess There are plenty of ACTUAL voodoo practitioners who believe it works for them, and pirates is setting with lots of supernatural stuff happening. Mortals never had any magic What is your basis for this statement?, the fact that jack sparrow never cast a spell?, did you see him eat a watermelon? would you assume watermelons dont exist? Did he ever visit a church? would therefore assume Christianity doesnt exist either. also read this excerpt from The Official Pirates of the Carribean: the Complete visual guide! Tia Dalma was a practitioner of Vodou and was known as a mystic and witch doctor. She resided in a shack on the Pantano River on Pelegosto Island. and also this quote from Noamie Harris who PLAYED Tia Dalma How would describe your character? She is a soothsayer fortune teller. She’s a mystic. She is a witch doctor. She’s a very mysterious character who’s able to see into people’s heart and mind. there you have from 2 OFFICIAL SOURCES. It is a setting based on a real world place in a real world time period, why would you exclude anything from that real life place and time period?, especially something that doesnt contradict anything in the setting, (the Calypso issue is irelevant)and Fits well and could add something interesting to the game. Basically she was a cleric that accessed her own power That is a D&D game mechanic (a means to use numbers and mathematical formulae to represent abstract concepts, the D20 of the systems name, Symbolises a random element in a probability range easy to handle, nothing more) and has no bearing whatsoever on cosmology, or metaphysics of the setting. what it all boils down to is creative licence and INTERPRETATION. Although at no time in the film does she ever claim to use voodoo, i see someone who has been bound by a magical effect causing a loss of salient power, looks like a Hougnan, acts like Hougnan, uses magic, so therefore i will Interpret this information and theorize that Tia Dalma IS A PRACTICING HOUGNAN, if you dont agree it matters not, If your Interpretation is different to mine, dont use magic in the game... IF YOU DONT WANT MAGIC IN THE SETTING, DONT USE IT. ITS YOUR GAME!, ITS YOUR RULES!, ITS YOUR CHOICE! But i will post content and ideas for those WHO DO WISH TO INCLUDE IT. There seems to be a strange aversion to the very idea of having voodoo play any part in the game,
Holy_Beholder 06-16-07, 01:18 AM	That last quote was from your own post, not mine. You might want to specify before you switch what you are quoting. Also, on your points. Lots of actual voodoo practitioners. Yeah, but they didn't ever raise the dead, cause storms or do anything huge and definite. The whole long boring did you see him eat a watermelon thing. Watermelons and churches are tangible things that you can prove exist. As they are real you assume they are in the setting. Mortals using magic aren't real, therefore you assume it isn't in the setting due to it never being shown. Some people believe that gods use magic, some don't and I prefer to stay away from that on these boards. An actual quote from Naomie Harris. That could have easily been from the second movie, and thus the whole god thing wasn't seen yet. It could also have said god anywhere in another sentence of the description. Some quote from an anonymous real source that could have been made up on the spot. She is a god could be right before all that, or at any other point, the point was she was a god, which allowed the rest of that stuff. Its a mechanic used for probability. That was simply an easy explanation using current systems, but the point is there is no definite proof of mortals using magic or reason to assume so. You yelling at your earlier post trying to use it to reinforce what you said about me. I find it funny:P
Giradius 06-16-07, 09:07 AM	Let me just make 2 things quite clear... I am not a practioner of voodoo, nor do i believe i gods. And i generally find people who do believe in these things quite odd. However just because magic doesnt realy work in the real world is no reason to assume that in a FANTASY setting it wouldnt either, I quoted myself because people dont seem to see that IT DOESNT MATTER! DIVINE OR ARCANE ITS YOUR CHOICE. the debate is boring now, and despite 2 official sources being quoted you will insist on your viewpoint, which is fine, clearly you favour divine magic over arcane in your games, but the point is that if i run a POTC game it doesnt have to be a carbon copy the game you play which also doesnt have to be a carbon copy of the film (remember what i said about creative licence), there is a lot to be said for the imagination of RPGers and when given a source of inspiration can take a game to wherever they like. I apologize for getting annoyed but i have tried to end the debate several posts ago by saying , Magic take it or leave it, if you dont want it dont use it, but for those who do want to feel free, and getting on with actually doing something creative instead of a pointless debate which neither of us can realy win, i will try not to let frustration get the better of me, i havent been posting very long and the nuances of board language and ettiquette are not very well known to me, and we are all here anyway because we love roleplaying. I never denied she was a goddess, i never denied that she had divine power, but the thought occurs that the reason the pirates Bound her in the first place was not just put her in human form so they could look at her but to tame the sea and put a curb on her power, making the sea safer for their own advantage, becoming human is a side effect of the pirates trying to strip her of power or is perhaps the way her power was stripped was by making her human. the idea of her being a cleric of herself also makes no sense to me, a cleric recieves divine powers from a deity and if the deity loses their powers they dont have them to give, to their worshippers or themselves. regarding the authenticity of my quotes , see for yourself http://pirates.wikia.com/wiki/Tia_Dalma http://www.blackfilm.com/20060630/features/noamieharris.shtml (it was an interview before At Worlds end but that is irelevant, if its true in dead mans chest, then it accounts for half of the films she has actually been in, and i feel that my point that if ancient greek monsters, undead, goddesses, extra dimensions, curses, magic items, undead aberrations and divine magic exist...why assume arcane magic doesnt exist as well, but the point is there is no definite proof of mortals using magic or reason to assume so i half agree with you, yes there is no proof that magic is used by mortals in the films, BUT i would say the other supernatural elements involved give reason to assume it is possible) a point on voodoo, IT IS DIVINE MAGIC, its a mix of african shamanism and catholicism, voodoo magic is performed by invoking the Loa (voodoo gods and spirits), so as i said D&D makes the distinction between the 2, real life makes no such distinction. finally, who ever you agree with it doesnt matter, if you want magic in your game have it, if you want aquatic illithids have them, if your DMing you make the rules and decide the content, dont let me tell you that you HAVE to include magic but also dont let anyone else tell you that you CANT include it if you want to