Public Gaming - OGL [Archive] - Wizards Community

Public Gaming - OGL [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
CittyCrail
06-19-07, 12:21 PM Hi. I am an employee of a public library. We just introduced a gaming program for the youth of our city. They can come after school and play PC FPS, video games of varied consoles, interactive games like Guitar Hero, DDR, Wii, etc. And we'd like to branch out to other gaming forms like paper & dice RPG.

My question is, if we are going to provide these kids with the gaming experience using d20 system and D&D core books are there going to be any legal restrictions on the library's part since we are a non-profit organization and not a bunch of friends huddled around someone's coffee table?

I'm a gamer myself, and my fiance and I plan on DMing. My original plan was to use a published adventure, and mold it to my liking, keeping it very simple since a lot of these kids have never gamed before. But can we legally make copies of character sheets since the books I am using have the "copies allowed only for personal use only" thing and I don't know if open-public gaming is consituted as "personal use," ya know? :confused:

Any suggestions, legal references, or pointed fingers in the right direction would be very helpful. We want to get something going in a week or two, so quick responces would be even better!

Thanks!
~Citty
Aussiegamer
06-19-07, 10:02 PM If you own the books then you can use the books.

If you copy pages then that becomes a different matter.
Ranger REG
06-20-07, 02:43 AM Contact WotC. Maybe they can and will help you out, especially when it comes to promoting [their] pen-n-paper RPGs.
Aussiegamer
06-20-07, 03:05 AM yer and good luck getting a reply.:eek:

personal use means that you are not selling it or earning cash from it.

So if you copy them for use in a non-profit meaning, then you should be right. Like making copies for your mates for your sessions at home.
CittyCrail
06-20-07, 03:28 PM Yea, the only things I'd be photo-copying from the books are character sheets for kids interested in playing, and perhaps a list of spells for any wizards/sorcerers created.

Plus we don't charge admission, all games are free for use, the D&D session is free, so there's really no way we are gaining any money from anything game related.

And in addition to that, the library is willing to purchase the core books (PHB, DMG, MM) for this purpose. So Citty, as an individual, would not be using Citty's books at work. Citty, as a library employee, would be using the library's books.

So I think we've covered all the legal requirements for the event, but I just wanted to double check with some other people who might know the sysem better than I do. It would kinda suck if the library got sued because we didn't stapel the open gaming license to all photocopies made or something like that.

Thanks for your responces, Aussie and Ranger.
~Citty

P.S.
*ahem*.....Aussie, Aussie, Aussie... :dancin:
Aussiegamer
06-20-07, 06:16 PM oi...oi..oi

I think you will be OK, as far as I understand the OGL and Australian law.

Even photocopying the material is OK as long as its for use solely for those sessions and not for use outside them.

For the spell sheets, you can use the SRD as it has all the PHB spells in it listed. In fact you can use all the open SRD stuff like that....
Ranger REG
06-21-07, 01:57 AM So I think we've covered all the legal requirements for the event, but I just wanted to double check with some other people who might know the sysem better than I do.
I know of the rulesystem, and only a "street" knowledge of the IP law.

I still recommend you contact WotC, or consult with legal aid in this area.
CittyCrail
06-21-07, 05:43 PM oi...oi...oi
:bounce:

Ranger, do you know where I would go to do that? Is there a place on these forums, or do you think I'd be better off giving e-mail feedback?

~Citty
Aussiegamer
06-21-07, 06:13 PM I tried years ago to get an answer about something and got no reply.

I would say to ask the mods, but since they don't even bother to respond either then best of luck actually getting a reply from anyone involved in WotC.

best of luck here is the link!

http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=489&p_created=1111777678&p_sid=r5OoVIEi&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPSZwX3NvcnRfYnk9JnBfZ3JpZHN vcnQ9JnBfcm93X2NudD03NjcmcF9wcm9kcz0mcF9 jYXRzPSZwX3B2PSZwX2N2PSZwX3NlYXJjaF90eXB lPWFuc3dlcnMuc2VhcmNoX25sJnBfcGFnZT0x&p_li=&p_topview=1
CittyCrail
06-21-07, 09:03 PM Thanks!

~Citty
spyone
06-24-07, 10:22 AM In my opinion (and with all the usual "I'm not a lawyer" caveats):

Distributing copies of the character sheet for no cost is unlikely to make anybody angry. I'll wager you can find a sheet for most games for free on the web.
Charging a tiny fee that covers your expenses in making the sheets is a little more risky, but still probably in-bounds.

And of course, if you want to create player hand-outs that, for instance, list all the spells in that character's spellbook, that would best be handled as an OGL publication: take the spells from the SRD, format them yourself, include (and comply with) the OGL, and you're good. You're even allowed to charge for that (and several companies do: you can buy PDFs online that are nothing more than part of the SRD with better formatting).

As far as I know, there are no special restrictions on what you can use just because you are gaming in a public place (there are games at Cons all the time, after all), nor do I think there is much risk of you getting your host (the library) in trouble with any game company with what you propose. The library might want to take certain measures to protect itself from possable lawsuits from outraged parents, but that has nothing to do with the companies that make the games. (Let's face it: there are folks out there who'll sue over anything. Little Johnny gets a "D" in math and they look for someone to blame.)
Nor do I see any issue in the library buying books so folks can play there. The public library here in Virginia Beach has copies of the 1st Edition books on their shelves (including an orignial Deities&Demigods, I believe). And as for folks just using the library copy and not buying their own, .... isn't that what libraries are for? If Random House isn't suing, I doubt anybody can. ;)

If you have any specific concerns, please post them: If you'll accept my advice with the knowledge that I'm not a lawyer (just a guy who's good with language and legalese and rule-interpretation), I'll be glad to share my advice.
I promise I'll never knowingly steer you wrong, and I'll try to be clear when I'm uncertain. :)
(I can't speak for Ranger REG, but he seems to have a similar willingness/eagerness to be helpful.)

Edit: Oh , hell. I know next-to-nothing about the laws about this kind of thing anywhere outside the US.
If you're outside the US, I don't think I can be much help beyond giving you my "feel" for how such things would be handled/go if you were in the US. Which is almost the same as being no help at all. :(
Colossus
06-24-07, 03:47 PM there is absolutely no conflict of any kind here. Having the books around and having kids in a library use them is no different than a group playing in a house or gaming store-- its the same as having a chess board or monopoly board out, your using the product in the manner it was meant to be used. All the character sheets have notated on them that making copies for the purpose of playing the game is fine and ok in every way shape and form-- that's why they are there.
Aussiegamer
06-26-07, 08:23 PM If you do get an official answer please post it here.:D
trappedslider
06-29-07, 10:28 PM If you do get an official answer please post it here.:D

sorry no offical answer on ANYTHING till GenCon is over or there will be an offical answer given at GenCon;)
fatumd20
07-03-07, 02:07 PM Small tidbit:

Character sheets should specifically say that permission is given to make copies as long as it is for non-profit.
greatamericanfolkhero
07-05-07, 04:00 PM Small tidbit:

Character sheets should specifically say that permission is given to make copies as long as it is for non-profit.

The OP could go here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/charactersheets) and get the sheets so they don't have to photocopy them out of the back of the book.
Ranger REG
07-05-07, 07:56 PM Small tidbit:

Character sheets should specifically say that permission is given to make copies as long as it is for non-profit.
No, they usually state in fine print, it's for personal use only.
Aussiegamer
07-05-07, 10:35 PM what is personal use then?

I mean does everyone got to have their own OHB to play in a session? That seems excessive even for WotC standards.

Since this is really a personal session, the place does not matter, as it could be easily be at home as well within the defination.

No money will change hands, no photocopying of non-OGL stuff will occur, then surely then its within the bounds of personal use.

As long as someone, be it company or personal, has the hard backs then its all the same.

Isn't that the standard for computer stuff? As long as the company has a licence for x numbers you only need 1 copy to copy or such?

But once again it looks like NO reply will occur from anyone within the WotC system...becoming pretty typical of what I have seen so far from them...:weep:
Ranger REG
07-06-07, 02:39 AM what is personal use then?
Certainly not about taking the character sheets, photocopy it using the library's machine, package it by reams, and distributing it. :smirk:

I thought we're talking about other material. I mean if you don't want to use the character sheets published by WotC, make your own, photocopy it so everyone can fill out their characters.
Aussiegamer
07-08-07, 06:24 PM Waits for the official answer....not holding my breathe at all.
Ranger REG
07-13-07, 02:53 AM I hope this would provide some kind of a response you're hoping for:

Post: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=13056020&postcount=16

Link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/library
spyone
07-13-07, 09:51 AM That's a very cool link: It makes a great deal of sense for WotC to prepare something like that, so I don't know why I'm surprised that they did. :)
Aussiegamer
07-15-07, 06:45 PM good link:D
ORC_Paradox
08-02-07, 07:27 AM I remember playing D&D in a public library. Good times- mostly.

See, when I joined the group, I was 16, and there was no more room for me with the older gamers, so I got stuck with the younger group. They were called the "Hurtin' Squirrels" because a few of them got the idea in their heads that you can load up on XP by killing squirrels. (And yes, that's the name they had BEFORE I joined the group.) Not a bad bunch of kids, though, and I just want to shout out "Hey" to any of you guys if you happen to see this. (I did draw a comic strip called "The Game" for the newsletter which was a highlight of our various game sessions with extreme exaggerations with myself as the worst of the lot. It was basically similar to the Order of the Stick, but not with stick figures. The characters would talk about game terms and such.... "No way, that's one of Dave's dragons. I'm NOT fighting one of those!" The characters would insult the DM, the DM would fight back with more bad encounters...)

I did lose my d20 there. Which really bugged me. But I found a d20 on the floor a couple of months later that sort of looked like mine. (And yes, I still have it.)

The program was started by one of the librarians there, but sometime after she left, the others didn't really want us around. You know how small town politics go. They kept claiming we left the room we played in a mess, which I KNOW for a fact was not true as I somehow ALWAYS got the vacuum/cleanup duty every month. That room always ended up cleaner than when we arrived.

So Donna (the librarian) would run games on occasion. She'd include puzzles in her games that would require real time research. An example, our characters found something wrong with a local village's crops- My character tried to figure out what it was- she passed a note with one word, and I had to leave the game to go to the stacks to look up what it was. (Good god, it was over 20 years ago, so don't ask me what the heck it was!)

Colossus pretty much nailed it on the head. Character sheets are allowed for personal use, be it at home, in your back yard, on the toilet, public library and so on. The rest of the book, it would be, as you know, Copyright infringement to photocopy the books and hand those out. Passing around a physical copy of the book isn't a problem, though. "Hey, what level is that spell?" "Here, look it up yourself!"

Now, the Open Gaming License (And I'm just shocked nobody else has brought this up!) is for PUBLISHERS to publish D&D adventures and material. It's not about how or where the game is played, but what material third party publishers can use, and to help advertise that said material is compatible with D&D. (D20 license.)

/just passing through...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CittyCrail 06-19-07, 12:21 PM	Hi. I am an employee of a public library. We just introduced a gaming program for the youth of our city. They can come after school and play PC FPS, video games of varied consoles, interactive games like Guitar Hero, DDR, Wii, etc. And we'd like to branch out to other gaming forms like paper & dice RPG. My question is, if we are going to provide these kids with the gaming experience using d20 system and D&D core books are there going to be any legal restrictions on the library's part since we are a non-profit organization and not a bunch of friends huddled around someone's coffee table? I'm a gamer myself, and my fiance and I plan on DMing. My original plan was to use a published adventure, and mold it to my liking, keeping it very simple since a lot of these kids have never gamed before. But can we legally make copies of character sheets since the books I am using have the "copies allowed only for personal use only" thing and I don't know if open-public gaming is consituted as "personal use," ya know? :confused: Any suggestions, legal references, or pointed fingers in the right direction would be very helpful. We want to get something going in a week or two, so quick responces would be even better! Thanks! ~Citty
Aussiegamer 06-19-07, 10:02 PM	If you own the books then you can use the books. If you copy pages then that becomes a different matter.
Ranger REG 06-20-07, 02:43 AM	Contact WotC. Maybe they can and will help you out, especially when it comes to promoting [their] pen-n-paper RPGs.
Aussiegamer 06-20-07, 03:05 AM	yer and good luck getting a reply.:eek: personal use means that you are not selling it or earning cash from it. So if you copy them for use in a non-profit meaning, then you should be right. Like making copies for your mates for your sessions at home.
CittyCrail 06-20-07, 03:28 PM	Yea, the only things I'd be photo-copying from the books are character sheets for kids interested in playing, and perhaps a list of spells for any wizards/sorcerers created. Plus we don't charge admission, all games are free for use, the D&D session is free, so there's really no way we are gaining any money from anything game related. And in addition to that, the library is willing to purchase the core books (PHB, DMG, MM) for this purpose. So Citty, as an individual, would not be using Citty's books at work. Citty, as a library employee, would be using the library's books. So I think we've covered all the legal requirements for the event, but I just wanted to double check with some other people who might know the sysem better than I do. It would kinda suck if the library got sued because we didn't stapel the open gaming license to all photocopies made or something like that. Thanks for your responces, Aussie and Ranger. ~Citty P.S. ahem.....Aussie, Aussie, Aussie... :dancin:
Aussiegamer 06-20-07, 06:16 PM	oi...oi..oi I think you will be OK, as far as I understand the OGL and Australian law. Even photocopying the material is OK as long as its for use solely for those sessions and not for use outside them. For the spell sheets, you can use the SRD as it has all the PHB spells in it listed. In fact you can use all the open SRD stuff like that....
Ranger REG 06-21-07, 01:57 AM	So I think we've covered all the legal requirements for the event, but I just wanted to double check with some other people who might know the sysem better than I do. I know of the rulesystem, and only a "street" knowledge of the IP law. I still recommend you contact WotC, or consult with legal aid in this area.
CittyCrail 06-21-07, 05:43 PM	oi...oi...oi :bounce: Ranger, do you know where I would go to do that? Is there a place on these forums, or do you think I'd be better off giving e-mail feedback? ~Citty
Aussiegamer 06-21-07, 06:13 PM	I tried years ago to get an answer about something and got no reply. I would say to ask the mods, but since they don't even bother to respond either then best of luck actually getting a reply from anyone involved in WotC. best of luck here is the link! http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=489&p_created=1111777678&p_sid=r5OoVIEi&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPSZwX3NvcnRfYnk9JnBfZ3JpZHN vcnQ9JnBfcm93X2NudD03NjcmcF9wcm9kcz0mcF9 jYXRzPSZwX3B2PSZwX2N2PSZwX3NlYXJjaF90eXB lPWFuc3dlcnMuc2VhcmNoX25sJnBfcGFnZT0x&p_li=&p_topview=1
CittyCrail 06-21-07, 09:03 PM	Thanks! ~Citty
spyone 06-24-07, 10:22 AM	In my opinion (and with all the usual "I'm not a lawyer" caveats): Distributing copies of the character sheet for no cost is unlikely to make anybody angry. I'll wager you can find a sheet for most games for free on the web. Charging a tiny fee that covers your expenses in making the sheets is a little more risky, but still probably in-bounds. And of course, if you want to create player hand-outs that, for instance, list all the spells in that character's spellbook, that would best be handled as an OGL publication: take the spells from the SRD, format them yourself, include (and comply with) the OGL, and you're good. You're even allowed to charge for that (and several companies do: you can buy PDFs online that are nothing more than part of the SRD with better formatting). As far as I know, there are no special restrictions on what you can use just because you are gaming in a public place (there are games at Cons all the time, after all), nor do I think there is much risk of you getting your host (the library) in trouble with any game company with what you propose. The library might want to take certain measures to protect itself from possable lawsuits from outraged parents, but that has nothing to do with the companies that make the games. (Let's face it: there are folks out there who'll sue over anything. Little Johnny gets a "D" in math and they look for someone to blame.) Nor do I see any issue in the library buying books so folks can play there. The public library here in Virginia Beach has copies of the 1st Edition books on their shelves (including an orignial Deities&Demigods, I believe). And as for folks just using the library copy and not buying their own, .... isn't that what libraries are for? If Random House isn't suing, I doubt anybody can. ;) If you have any specific concerns, please post them: If you'll accept my advice with the knowledge that I'm not a lawyer (just a guy who's good with language and legalese and rule-interpretation), I'll be glad to share my advice. I promise I'll never knowingly steer you wrong, and I'll try to be clear when I'm uncertain. :) (I can't speak for Ranger REG, but he seems to have a similar willingness/eagerness to be helpful.) Edit: Oh , hell. I know next-to-nothing about the laws about this kind of thing anywhere outside the US. If you're outside the US, I don't think I can be much help beyond giving you my "feel" for how such things would be handled/go if you were in the US. Which is almost the same as being no help at all. :(
Colossus 06-24-07, 03:47 PM	there is absolutely no conflict of any kind here. Having the books around and having kids in a library use them is no different than a group playing in a house or gaming store-- its the same as having a chess board or monopoly board out, your using the product in the manner it was meant to be used. All the character sheets have notated on them that making copies for the purpose of playing the game is fine and ok in every way shape and form-- that's why they are there.
Aussiegamer 06-26-07, 08:23 PM	If you do get an official answer please post it here.:D
trappedslider 06-29-07, 10:28 PM	If you do get an official answer please post it here.:D sorry no offical answer on ANYTHING till GenCon is over or there will be an offical answer given at GenCon;)
fatumd20 07-03-07, 02:07 PM	Small tidbit: Character sheets should specifically say that permission is given to make copies as long as it is for non-profit.
greatamericanfolkhero 07-05-07, 04:00 PM	Small tidbit: Character sheets should specifically say that permission is given to make copies as long as it is for non-profit. The OP could go here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/charactersheets) and get the sheets so they don't have to photocopy them out of the back of the book.
Ranger REG 07-05-07, 07:56 PM	Small tidbit: Character sheets should specifically say that permission is given to make copies as long as it is for non-profit. No, they usually state in fine print, it's for personal use only.
Aussiegamer 07-05-07, 10:35 PM	what is personal use then? I mean does everyone got to have their own OHB to play in a session? That seems excessive even for WotC standards. Since this is really a personal session, the place does not matter, as it could be easily be at home as well within the defination. No money will change hands, no photocopying of non-OGL stuff will occur, then surely then its within the bounds of personal use. As long as someone, be it company or personal, has the hard backs then its all the same. Isn't that the standard for computer stuff? As long as the company has a licence for x numbers you only need 1 copy to copy or such? But once again it looks like NO reply will occur from anyone within the WotC system...becoming pretty typical of what I have seen so far from them...:weep:
Ranger REG 07-06-07, 02:39 AM	what is personal use then? Certainly not about taking the character sheets, photocopy it using the library's machine, package it by reams, and distributing it. :smirk: I thought we're talking about other material. I mean if you don't want to use the character sheets published by WotC, make your own, photocopy it so everyone can fill out their characters.
Aussiegamer 07-08-07, 06:24 PM	Waits for the official answer....not holding my breathe at all.
Ranger REG 07-13-07, 02:53 AM	I hope this would provide some kind of a response you're hoping for: Post: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=13056020&postcount=16 Link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/library
spyone 07-13-07, 09:51 AM	That's a very cool link: It makes a great deal of sense for WotC to prepare something like that, so I don't know why I'm surprised that they did. :)
Aussiegamer 07-15-07, 06:45 PM	good link:D
ORC_Paradox 08-02-07, 07:27 AM	I remember playing D&D in a public library. Good times- mostly. See, when I joined the group, I was 16, and there was no more room for me with the older gamers, so I got stuck with the younger group. They were called the "Hurtin' Squirrels" because a few of them got the idea in their heads that you can load up on XP by killing squirrels. (And yes, that's the name they had BEFORE I joined the group.) Not a bad bunch of kids, though, and I just want to shout out "Hey" to any of you guys if you happen to see this. (I did draw a comic strip called "The Game" for the newsletter which was a highlight of our various game sessions with extreme exaggerations with myself as the worst of the lot. It was basically similar to the Order of the Stick, but not with stick figures. The characters would talk about game terms and such.... "No way, that's one of Dave's dragons. I'm NOT fighting one of those!" The characters would insult the DM, the DM would fight back with more bad encounters...) I did lose my d20 there. Which really bugged me. But I found a d20 on the floor a couple of months later that sort of looked like mine. (And yes, I still have it.) The program was started by one of the librarians there, but sometime after she left, the others didn't really want us around. You know how small town politics go. They kept claiming we left the room we played in a mess, which I KNOW for a fact was not true as I somehow ALWAYS got the vacuum/cleanup duty every month. That room always ended up cleaner than when we arrived. So Donna (the librarian) would run games on occasion. She'd include puzzles in her games that would require real time research. An example, our characters found something wrong with a local village's crops- My character tried to figure out what it was- she passed a note with one word, and I had to leave the game to go to the stacks to look up what it was. (Good god, it was over 20 years ago, so don't ask me what the heck it was!) Colossus pretty much nailed it on the head. Character sheets are allowed for personal use, be it at home, in your back yard, on the toilet, public library and so on. The rest of the book, it would be, as you know, Copyright infringement to photocopy the books and hand those out. Passing around a physical copy of the book isn't a problem, though. "Hey, what level is that spell?" "Here, look it up yourself!" Now, the Open Gaming License (And I'm just shocked nobody else has brought this up!) is for PUBLISHERS to publish D&D adventures and material. It's not about how or where the game is played, but what material third party publishers can use, and to help advertise that said material is compatible with D&D. (D20 license.) /just passing through...