question about pun pun/divine minion [Archive] - Wizards Community

question about pun pun/divine minion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SaintOfSevens
03-18-08, 06:37 PM Simple question really:

Does the divine minion template give him a +1LA ?

I am so confused about this.

Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +1 for Anhur, Hathor, Isis, Nephthys, Sebek, or Thoth; same as the base creature +2 for divine minions of Bast, Geb, Horus-Re, Osiris, or Set.

The anhur, etc names confuse me? What is the point in them.. I haven't played very long as at all but I am just trying to understand what the extra text means for LAs and such. Can anyone explain?

Would that mean pun pun has to get exp = to a lvl 5 before he could start his process of unending everything ( or near it ) at lvl 4?
CrimsonDeath
03-18-08, 06:56 PM I think so, but it doesn't really matter because Pun-Pun doesn't need to be a Divine Minion any more.

The current build involves starting on Toril and getting +15 to Knowledge: Religion at level 1, so he can take 10 and know that he can summon Pazuzu (Fiendish Codex 1) by saying his name three times, and Pazuzu will then grant him a wish. He asks Pazuzu for a Candle of Invocation and uses that to summon an Efreet. He asks the Efreet for another Candle of Invocation, the Reptilian subtype (if he doesn't already have it), and a trip to another plane. He uses the second Candle of Invocation to summon a Sarrukh and have it grant him Manipulate Form.

This can be done with almost any +0 LA race/class combination, as soon as the campaign begins. Traditionally, a Kobold Paladin is preferred.
SaintOfSevens
03-18-08, 08:14 PM I think so, but it doesn't really matter because Pun-Pun doesn't need to be a Divine Minion any more.

The current build involves starting on Toril and getting +15 to Knowledge: Religion at level 1, so he can take 10 and know that he can summon Pazuzu (Fiendish Codex 1) by saying his name three times, and Pazuzu will then grant him a wish. He asks Pazuzu for a Candle of Invocation and uses that to summon an Efreet. He asks the Efreet for another Candle of Invocation, the Reptilian subtype (if he doesn't already have it), and a trip to another plane. He uses the second Candle of Invocation to summon a Sarrukh and have it grant him Manipulate Form.

This can be done with almost any +0 LA race/class combination, as soon as the campaign begins. Traditionally, a Kobold Paladin is preferred.

what is the reason to go to another plane exactly?

Also would he need to be wizard/sorc for the familiar to command or what would you do there? for the size trick combo back and forth.

( so pretty much pun pun can do this at lvl 1 right off the bat ? )

lot of simple question in which I feel like an idiot for asking, but better to be correct and confirm it then to go on not knowing correctly.

EDIT: also, what if the Sarrukh doesn't want to grant him manipulate form? Does he control it from the candle or what?

Can you link me to all the information about this new build? like well most informative post about it?
Senevri
03-19-08, 08:09 AM what is the reason to go to another plane exactly?

Also would he need to be wizard/sorc for the familiar to command or what would you do there? for the size trick combo back and forth.
I'm not entirely sure myself, but I think it's so that Sarrukh are Extraplanar from his point of view and thus valid targets for Gate. ( which is what Candle of Invocation does. )
He can grant himself a familiar with the ability, or simply use Simulacrum (ex) to create a clone of himself. Remember, while Manipulate Form cannot be used on the Sarrukh --- PP isn't one.

EDIT: also, what if the Sarrukh doesn't want to grant him manipulate form? Does he control it from the candle or what?

The Sarrukh is his sock puppet for number of rounds equal to the CL of Candle of Invocation.
SaintOfSevens
03-19-08, 11:14 AM I appreciate the answering of my questions guys :) Where I am semi new to learning a lot of the indepth stuff,this really clears up things for me.

thanks again guys. :) great help A+
CrimsonDeath
03-19-08, 02:33 PM what is the reason to go to another plane exactly?
Sarrukh are native to the Prime Material, and a Candle of Invocation can only summon Extraplanar creatures. Once you're on another plane, Sarrukh are extraplanar there and can be summoned by a Candle of Invocation.

Also would he need to be wizard/sorc for the familiar to command or what would you do there? for the size trick combo back and forth.
Since you're personally not a Sarruhk, you can use Manipulate Form on yourself to grant yourself the ability to summon or create a loyal reptilian creature, in a variety of ways.

( so pretty much pun pun can do this at lvl 1 right off the bat ? )
Yes.

lot of simple question in which I feel like an idiot for asking, but better to be correct and confirm it then to go on not knowing correctly.
No problem. You never learn if you never ask.

EDIT: also, what if the Sarrukh doesn't want to grant him manipulate form? Does he control it from the candle or what?
The Candle of Invocation mimics the summoning function of the Gate spell, which specifies that you can call and control a single creature with hit dice less than twice the caster level of the spell. So, no, the Sarrukh doesn't get a choice.

Can you link me to all the information about this new build? like well most informative post about it?
It's buried somewhere in the Pun-Pun thread. I don't know where exactly. You can probably find it by Searching the thread for "Pazuzu".

(Also note that I might be spelling "Sarrukh" wrong.)
SaintOfSevens
03-19-08, 02:50 PM :) the two people that have answered my questions here are by far the nicest i've talked with on the forums since i've been here. appreciate it for sure. Crimson I was going to pm you about the religion but maybe you can explain it here. How does one achieve 15 in knowledge at lvl 1, I have a different character sheet than the one used with the 3.5 phbs so, maybe it's not showing me something but I can't seem to get 15 unless I am doing something wrong just trying to figure it out.
I'm difficult :confused: :rolleyes: but I mean well. I feel the need to let out a sigh after getting this all cleared up. thanks again.

EDIT: also, does the alignment change affect from pazuzu when he aides a person, affect the paladin/alignment in any way? It says he will go through pains the first time he helps a paladin to bring them only good ( so they'll ask for his aid more ) so does that mean when the paladin/pun pun would use him, it wouldn't change his alignment or does that happen either way and it doesn't matter if pun pun loses his divine paladin powers( meaning he'd just be paladin to achieve a more likely chance for help from pazuzu) ? I was also confused about that so thought i'd throw it in here to get it cleared up as well. pazuzu is a bad man/bird :|.
Tshern
03-19-08, 07:01 PM (Also note that I might be spelling "Sarrukh" wrong.)
If it is any condolence to you, you spelled it out right.

How does one achieve 15 in knowledge at lvl 1, I have a different character sheet than the one used with the 3.5 phbs so, maybe it's not showing me something but I can't seem to get 15 unless I am doing something wrong just trying to figure it out.
That is not too easy, but can be done, here is an example:
-Intelligence 22 (Old Gray Elf)
-4 ranks
-3 from skill focus
-2 from masterwork tools

Thus, 15=6(intelligence) +3(skill focus)+ 4(ranks)+ 2(masterwork tools). Feel free to use Bard's improvisation or something like that to make your check even better. That is but a general example. There is a feat that let's you have a knowledge as a class skill and you gain +1 bonus to that, meaning that you can do this with an old human as well if you want to.

also, does the alignment change affect from pazuzu when he aides a person, affect the paladin/alignment in any way?
Yes, you move one step towards to chaotic evil. However, you only need one Wish from Pazuzu and nigh-infinite power is a huge reward for breaking your Code of Conduct, right?

if pun pun loses his divine paladin powers( meaning he'd just be paladin to achieve a more likely chance for help from pazuzu) ?
Well, his alignment is going to change, so he loses all the Paladin powers, but once he gets Manipulate form, it is very easy to acquire those powers again.
SaintOfSevens
03-19-08, 07:50 PM thanks for clearing that up :) people here are so willing to help it's a shock, but welcomed.

One last question or two about the alignment, can the character after obtaining manipulate form change his alignment at will? If I was to ever do this for a game for a specific reason, i'd probably make him neutral IF of course, that is possible or not.
(also since pazuzu makes you one step closer to chaotic unless you are chaotic already [in which it then makes it closer to evil] what would he become if he was indeed, lawful good. Chaotic good? Lawful neutral? Neutral good? ugh. :embarrass :rolleyes:

Also could hellfire engine hurt pun pun? in fiendish codex II page 119 it talks about how his damage can't be blocked by reduction/resistance and various other things.. I assume not because pun pun is well pun pun and surely knows a way out of it.

Also what would be needed for a "kobold" paladin to get the desired knowledge as it is what was " suggested " so you would still have a wish left instead of using it for the scales ( scaled one or scaley one? not sure ) as a wish.
Tshern
03-19-08, 08:32 PM Sure, Pun-Pun can change his alignment easily. Just make yourself an extraordinary ability that allows you to change alignment at will. Or just make yourself automatically qualify for all alignment-based qualities while being immune to all negative alignment effects (Dictum and such).

No, Hellfire Engine does nothing to Pun-Pun. He can just be immune, simply say that you are immune to that.

You call Pazuzu and get a Wish. Wish for a Candle of Invocation. Call in an Efreet, ask for a plane shift, transformation into a scaled one and gating in a Sarrukh. Then acquire Manipulate form and make it grant you infinite Wishes. Alternatively, don't call in Pazuzu yet, but ask for another Candle. Use it to call another Efreet, which again calls Pazuzu. Two Wishes left.
CrimsonDeath
03-20-08, 02:04 AM You can't call Pazuzu with the Candle; he's Unique, so he's not compelled to pass through the Gate.

You can call another Efreet, though.
SaintOfSevens
03-20-08, 02:08 AM Pazuzu want a cracker?:tie: :dice: dice says yes.

Crimson you got a pm. If I managed to get it to go through.
Callix
03-25-08, 07:46 PM On the Knowledge (Religion) check: It's possible to do this with a non-old human of any class, including a CW Samurai, with the average starting wealth of a Barbarian (100 gp).

1 Education
4 Ranks
3 Skill Focus
4 18 Intelligence
3 Psionic Shard of Knowledge (Religion) (90 gp)
=15.
Heliomance
03-26-08, 08:07 AM But Pun-Pun is a Kobold. Preferably a Paladin. I assume it is possible to make the check using a kobold paladin?
Tshern
03-26-08, 11:48 AM You can't call Pazuzu with the Candle; he's Unique, so he's not compelled to pass through the Gate.

You can call another Efreet, though.
I didn't mean you'll call him with the candle, I meant you call him by saying his name three times.
The_Mad_Linguist
03-26-08, 02:48 PM But Pun-Pun is a Kobold. Preferably a Paladin. I assume it is possible to make the check using a kobold paladin?

4 ranks
+5 bonus for 21 intelligence (18 base, +3 for venerable)
+3 skill focus(knowledge:religion)
+3 psionic shard (knowledge:religion)
Callix
03-30-08, 07:47 AM But Pun-Pun is a Kobold. Preferably a Paladin. I assume it is possible to make the check using a kobold paladin?

Of course. Knowledge (Religion) is a class skill for paladins, so Education is unnecessary. Take TML's build, drop the shard to +2, and spend the 50gp on a masterwork tool of Knowledge (Religion): a textbook on comparative theology, or some such. This gives another +2. Now he doesn't even need to be Middle-Aged, let alone Venerable.
Senevri
03-30-08, 11:19 AM What about knowledge of the Sarrukh, though?
The_Mad_Linguist
03-31-08, 02:21 AM What about knowledge of the Sarrukh, though?

He has availability to unlimited wishes. It's a non-issue.
Senevri
03-31-08, 08:12 AM Ah, true.
Heliomance
03-31-08, 12:04 PM So, what - "I wish to know how to become all-powerful"?
The_Mad_Linguist
03-31-08, 01:00 PM So, what - "I wish to know how to become all-powerful"?

Wish to duplicate improvisation to give a bonus on making a knowledge check.
CrimsonDeath
04-05-08, 04:08 AM It occurs to me that Pun-Pun also needs knowledge of Efreeti.

Fortunately, they're Outsiders, and one can learn of Pazuzu by either Knowledge: Religion or Knowledge: The Planes. So, if Knowledge: The Planes is used instead, Pun-Pun should also know about Efreeti. And if he starts out as a Scaled One native to Toril, he has a spare wish anyway, so he can use that to gain a bonus to his Knowledge: Arcana check to know about the Sarruhk (by a variety of methods).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SaintOfSevens 03-18-08, 06:37 PM	Simple question really: Does the divine minion template give him a +1LA ? I am so confused about this. Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +1 for Anhur, Hathor, Isis, Nephthys, Sebek, or Thoth; same as the base creature +2 for divine minions of Bast, Geb, Horus-Re, Osiris, or Set. The anhur, etc names confuse me? What is the point in them.. I haven't played very long as at all but I am just trying to understand what the extra text means for LAs and such. Can anyone explain? Would that mean pun pun has to get exp = to a lvl 5 before he could start his process of unending everything ( or near it ) at lvl 4?
CrimsonDeath 03-18-08, 06:56 PM	I think so, but it doesn't really matter because Pun-Pun doesn't need to be a Divine Minion any more. The current build involves starting on Toril and getting +15 to Knowledge: Religion at level 1, so he can take 10 and know that he can summon Pazuzu (Fiendish Codex 1) by saying his name three times, and Pazuzu will then grant him a wish. He asks Pazuzu for a Candle of Invocation and uses that to summon an Efreet. He asks the Efreet for another Candle of Invocation, the Reptilian subtype (if he doesn't already have it), and a trip to another plane. He uses the second Candle of Invocation to summon a Sarrukh and have it grant him Manipulate Form. This can be done with almost any +0 LA race/class combination, as soon as the campaign begins. Traditionally, a Kobold Paladin is preferred.
SaintOfSevens 03-18-08, 08:14 PM	I think so, but it doesn't really matter because Pun-Pun doesn't need to be a Divine Minion any more. The current build involves starting on Toril and getting +15 to Knowledge: Religion at level 1, so he can take 10 and know that he can summon Pazuzu (Fiendish Codex 1) by saying his name three times, and Pazuzu will then grant him a wish. He asks Pazuzu for a Candle of Invocation and uses that to summon an Efreet. He asks the Efreet for another Candle of Invocation, the Reptilian subtype (if he doesn't already have it), and a trip to another plane. He uses the second Candle of Invocation to summon a Sarrukh and have it grant him Manipulate Form. This can be done with almost any +0 LA race/class combination, as soon as the campaign begins. Traditionally, a Kobold Paladin is preferred. what is the reason to go to another plane exactly? Also would he need to be wizard/sorc for the familiar to command or what would you do there? for the size trick combo back and forth. ( so pretty much pun pun can do this at lvl 1 right off the bat ? ) lot of simple question in which I feel like an idiot for asking, but better to be correct and confirm it then to go on not knowing correctly. EDIT: also, what if the Sarrukh doesn't want to grant him manipulate form? Does he control it from the candle or what? Can you link me to all the information about this new build? like well most informative post about it?
Senevri 03-19-08, 08:09 AM	what is the reason to go to another plane exactly? Also would he need to be wizard/sorc for the familiar to command or what would you do there? for the size trick combo back and forth. I'm not entirely sure myself, but I think it's so that Sarrukh are Extraplanar from his point of view and thus valid targets for Gate. ( which is what Candle of Invocation does. ) He can grant himself a familiar with the ability, or simply use Simulacrum (ex) to create a clone of himself. Remember, while Manipulate Form cannot be used on the Sarrukh --- PP isn't one. EDIT: also, what if the Sarrukh doesn't want to grant him manipulate form? Does he control it from the candle or what? The Sarrukh is his sock puppet for number of rounds equal to the CL of Candle of Invocation.
SaintOfSevens 03-19-08, 11:14 AM	I appreciate the answering of my questions guys :) Where I am semi new to learning a lot of the indepth stuff,this really clears up things for me. thanks again guys. :) great help A+
CrimsonDeath 03-19-08, 02:33 PM	what is the reason to go to another plane exactly? Sarrukh are native to the Prime Material, and a Candle of Invocation can only summon Extraplanar creatures. Once you're on another plane, Sarrukh are extraplanar there and can be summoned by a Candle of Invocation. Also would he need to be wizard/sorc for the familiar to command or what would you do there? for the size trick combo back and forth. Since you're personally not a Sarruhk, you can use Manipulate Form on yourself to grant yourself the ability to summon or create a loyal reptilian creature, in a variety of ways. ( so pretty much pun pun can do this at lvl 1 right off the bat ? ) Yes. lot of simple question in which I feel like an idiot for asking, but better to be correct and confirm it then to go on not knowing correctly. No problem. You never learn if you never ask. EDIT: also, what if the Sarrukh doesn't want to grant him manipulate form? Does he control it from the candle or what? The Candle of Invocation mimics the summoning function of the Gate spell, which specifies that you can call and control a single creature with hit dice less than twice the caster level of the spell. So, no, the Sarrukh doesn't get a choice. Can you link me to all the information about this new build? like well most informative post about it? It's buried somewhere in the Pun-Pun thread. I don't know where exactly. You can probably find it by Searching the thread for "Pazuzu". (Also note that I might be spelling "Sarrukh" wrong.)
SaintOfSevens 03-19-08, 02:50 PM	:) the two people that have answered my questions here are by far the nicest i've talked with on the forums since i've been here. appreciate it for sure. Crimson I was going to pm you about the religion but maybe you can explain it here. How does one achieve 15 in knowledge at lvl 1, I have a different character sheet than the one used with the 3.5 phbs so, maybe it's not showing me something but I can't seem to get 15 unless I am doing something wrong just trying to figure it out. I'm difficult :confused: :rolleyes: but I mean well. I feel the need to let out a sigh after getting this all cleared up. thanks again. EDIT: also, does the alignment change affect from pazuzu when he aides a person, affect the paladin/alignment in any way? It says he will go through pains the first time he helps a paladin to bring them only good ( so they'll ask for his aid more ) so does that mean when the paladin/pun pun would use him, it wouldn't change his alignment or does that happen either way and it doesn't matter if pun pun loses his divine paladin powers( meaning he'd just be paladin to achieve a more likely chance for help from pazuzu) ? I was also confused about that so thought i'd throw it in here to get it cleared up as well. pazuzu is a bad man/bird :\|.
Tshern 03-19-08, 07:01 PM	(Also note that I might be spelling "Sarrukh" wrong.) If it is any condolence to you, you spelled it out right. How does one achieve 15 in knowledge at lvl 1, I have a different character sheet than the one used with the 3.5 phbs so, maybe it's not showing me something but I can't seem to get 15 unless I am doing something wrong just trying to figure it out. That is not too easy, but can be done, here is an example: -Intelligence 22 (Old Gray Elf) -4 ranks -3 from skill focus -2 from masterwork tools Thus, 15=6(intelligence) +3(skill focus)+ 4(ranks)+ 2(masterwork tools). Feel free to use Bard's improvisation or something like that to make your check even better. That is but a general example. There is a feat that let's you have a knowledge as a class skill and you gain +1 bonus to that, meaning that you can do this with an old human as well if you want to. also, does the alignment change affect from pazuzu when he aides a person, affect the paladin/alignment in any way? Yes, you move one step towards to chaotic evil. However, you only need one Wish from Pazuzu and nigh-infinite power is a huge reward for breaking your Code of Conduct, right? if pun pun loses his divine paladin powers( meaning he'd just be paladin to achieve a more likely chance for help from pazuzu) ? Well, his alignment is going to change, so he loses all the Paladin powers, but once he gets Manipulate form, it is very easy to acquire those powers again.
SaintOfSevens 03-19-08, 07:50 PM	thanks for clearing that up :) people here are so willing to help it's a shock, but welcomed. One last question or two about the alignment, can the character after obtaining manipulate form change his alignment at will? If I was to ever do this for a game for a specific reason, i'd probably make him neutral IF of course, that is possible or not. (also since pazuzu makes you one step closer to chaotic unless you are chaotic already [in which it then makes it closer to evil] what would he become if he was indeed, lawful good. Chaotic good? Lawful neutral? Neutral good? ugh. :embarrass :rolleyes: Also could hellfire engine hurt pun pun? in fiendish codex II page 119 it talks about how his damage can't be blocked by reduction/resistance and various other things.. I assume not because pun pun is well pun pun and surely knows a way out of it. Also what would be needed for a "kobold" paladin to get the desired knowledge as it is what was " suggested " so you would still have a wish left instead of using it for the scales ( scaled one or scaley one? not sure ) as a wish.
Tshern 03-19-08, 08:32 PM	Sure, Pun-Pun can change his alignment easily. Just make yourself an extraordinary ability that allows you to change alignment at will. Or just make yourself automatically qualify for all alignment-based qualities while being immune to all negative alignment effects (Dictum and such). No, Hellfire Engine does nothing to Pun-Pun. He can just be immune, simply say that you are immune to that. You call Pazuzu and get a Wish. Wish for a Candle of Invocation. Call in an Efreet, ask for a plane shift, transformation into a scaled one and gating in a Sarrukh. Then acquire Manipulate form and make it grant you infinite Wishes. Alternatively, don't call in Pazuzu yet, but ask for another Candle. Use it to call another Efreet, which again calls Pazuzu. Two Wishes left.
CrimsonDeath 03-20-08, 02:04 AM	You can't call Pazuzu with the Candle; he's Unique, so he's not compelled to pass through the Gate. You can call another Efreet, though.
SaintOfSevens 03-20-08, 02:08 AM	Pazuzu want a cracker?:tie: :dice: dice says yes. Crimson you got a pm. If I managed to get it to go through.
Callix 03-25-08, 07:46 PM	On the Knowledge (Religion) check: It's possible to do this with a non-old human of any class, including a CW Samurai, with the average starting wealth of a Barbarian (100 gp). 1 Education 4 Ranks 3 Skill Focus 4 18 Intelligence 3 Psionic Shard of Knowledge (Religion) (90 gp) =15.
Heliomance 03-26-08, 08:07 AM	But Pun-Pun is a Kobold. Preferably a Paladin. I assume it is possible to make the check using a kobold paladin?
Tshern 03-26-08, 11:48 AM	You can't call Pazuzu with the Candle; he's Unique, so he's not compelled to pass through the Gate. You can call another Efreet, though. I didn't mean you'll call him with the candle, I meant you call him by saying his name three times.
The_Mad_Linguist 03-26-08, 02:48 PM	But Pun-Pun is a Kobold. Preferably a Paladin. I assume it is possible to make the check using a kobold paladin? 4 ranks +5 bonus for 21 intelligence (18 base, +3 for venerable) +3 skill focus(knowledge:religion) +3 psionic shard (knowledge:religion)
Callix 03-30-08, 07:47 AM	But Pun-Pun is a Kobold. Preferably a Paladin. I assume it is possible to make the check using a kobold paladin? Of course. Knowledge (Religion) is a class skill for paladins, so Education is unnecessary. Take TML's build, drop the shard to +2, and spend the 50gp on a masterwork tool of Knowledge (Religion): a textbook on comparative theology, or some such. This gives another +2. Now he doesn't even need to be Middle-Aged, let alone Venerable.
Senevri 03-30-08, 11:19 AM	What about knowledge of the Sarrukh, though?
The_Mad_Linguist 03-31-08, 02:21 AM	What about knowledge of the Sarrukh, though? He has availability to unlimited wishes. It's a non-issue.
Senevri 03-31-08, 08:12 AM	Ah, true.
Heliomance 03-31-08, 12:04 PM	So, what - "I wish to know how to become all-powerful"?
The_Mad_Linguist 03-31-08, 01:00 PM	So, what - "I wish to know how to become all-powerful"? Wish to duplicate improvisation to give a bonus on making a knowledge check.
CrimsonDeath 04-05-08, 04:08 AM	It occurs to me that Pun-Pun also needs knowledge of Efreeti. Fortunately, they're Outsiders, and one can learn of Pazuzu by either Knowledge: Religion or Knowledge: The Planes. So, if Knowledge: The Planes is used instead, Pun-Pun should also know about Efreeti. And if he starts out as a Scaled One native to Toril, he has a spare wish anyway, so he can use that to gain a bonus to his Knowledge: Arcana check to know about the Sarruhk (by a variety of methods).