Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tsuyoshikentsu 02-14-08, 02:21 AM	This is a little like that. Crack your copy of Champions of Ruin, turn to the bottom of page 17, and read Chakram Ricochet. Do you see it? No? Read it again. *Sigh* Okay. Find the text that's stopping you from, on a successful second attack, bouncing it back at the original target. See it? Neither do I. Just think about that for a second. Essentially, Avalanche of Blades at range, at two people, and at first level
loganic1 02-14-08, 01:16 PM	Lolol tsuyoshikentsu, First it was celestial badgers, now it's crazy chain lightning? THE MADNESS, the madness, when will it stop!! XD
archerpwr 02-14-08, 05:11 PM	Nice. BTW, should have Ell finished by sunday or so.
RadicalTaoist 02-14-08, 05:18 PM	The thread title is misleading. This trick doesn't require a degree in theoretical geometry to use.
The_Mad_Linguist 02-14-08, 11:45 PM	This trick doesn't require a degree in theoretical geometry to use. Were you angling for that pun?
tsuyoshikentsu 02-15-08, 12:21 AM	Were you angling for that pun? Just like how you were aiming for yours.
BetaSquirrell 02-15-08, 08:34 AM	It's ricocheting! Noooooooooooo!
RadicalTaoist 02-15-08, 02:33 PM	Were you angling for that pun? Just like how you were aiming for yours. Would you two stop being such squares?
archerpwr 02-15-08, 07:28 PM	Were you angling for that pun? Just like how you were aiming for yours. It's ricocheting! Noooooooooooo! Would you two stop being such squares? :nonono:
CrimsonDeath 02-15-08, 10:55 PM	:nonono: Such acute criticism...
tsuyoshikentsu 02-16-08, 11:53 PM	Don't be obtuse. He was kidding.
loganic1 02-18-08, 10:59 AM	All these angles, I can't get a perspective. It should be one dimensional, right? I get acute migraines from bad puns.
CrimsonDeath 02-18-08, 04:08 PM	All these angles, I can't get a perspective. It should be one dimensional, right? I get acute migraines from bad puns. I can't decide whether or not that was complimentary.
HarlequinHelsing 02-18-08, 05:01 PM	Let's get this thread back on topic before we go off on another tangent.
Callix 02-18-08, 06:34 PM	Let's get this thread back on topic before we go off on another tangent. Geometry puns are always a bad sine. On-topic: Awesome. Lotsa damage. One question: I don't have the book. Is this "kill n-1 enemies, where n is the number of enemies present" or just a whole lotta damage to 2 people?
RadicalTaoist 02-19-08, 12:35 AM	Geometry puns are always a bad sine. You don't know the degree to which you are right. On-topic http://cabe.fatboylan.net/albums/rnd_forum/ThreadDirection.jpg
HarlequinHelsing 02-19-08, 02:04 PM	You don't know the degree to which you are right. You have a point there. Man, all these geometry puns are getting just plane silly.
Fwib 02-19-08, 05:17 PM	Sorry, I couldn't think of any nifty geometry puns. Where are the stats for the chackram? [edit] Found em in FRCS
Novabomb 02-20-08, 10:38 AM	You don't know the degree to which you are right. http://cabe.fatboylan.net/albums/rnd_forum/ThreadDirection.jpg Of course he does, its always 90.
tsuyoshikentsu 02-20-08, 04:08 PM	To move this thread back in line with my post: On-topic: Awesome. Lotsa damage. One question: I don't have the book. Is this "kill n-1 enemies, where n is the number of enemies present" or just a whole lotta damage to 2 people? Assuming you could make every attack hit, infinite attacks on any number of people no more than five feet away from one other person.
Callix 02-21-08, 06:12 AM	To move this thread back in line with my post: Assuming you could make every attack hit, infinite attacks on any number of people no more than five feet away from one other person. So this is why heroes inevitably face deities alone. Even a demigod doesn't autofail on 1's, and so can use this for infinite damage so long as there's anyone standing next to you. In other news, Pun-Pun now needs considerably less shenanigans to get infinite stats. 1: Become a Greater Deity (to ignore the dice rolls). 2: Grab a snake and give it and yourself the Shambling Mound's Elecricity Immunity. 3: Bounce an infinite number of Chakram Ricochets between you, gaining infinite Con in a single round.
RadicalTaoist 02-21-08, 11:33 AM	Hey. SHOCKING Chakrams.
skydragonknight 02-21-08, 01:57 PM	Hey. SHOCKING Chakrams. Ohmygod, now that's a joule, and an excellent way to generate a character with a lot of power. With Fist of the Forest that power would be of the AC kind, though you could go Dragonfire Adept for breath attacks with great DC. Though I find Shambling Mounds, even in the current 3.5 edition, to be revolting. Nothing I would be exstatic about. Watt were they thinking?
tsuyoshikentsu 02-21-08, 04:20 PM	Eh. Shambling Mound shenangans usually meet with resistance from DMs.
skydragonknight 02-21-08, 07:29 PM	Eh. Shambling Mound shenangans usually meet with resistance from DMs. Yeah, that was one of the few I couldn't figure out how to fit in. ;)
The_Mad_Linguist 02-21-08, 07:38 PM	Yeah, that was one of the few I couldn't figure out how to fit in. ;) You need to be inducted into the group, otherwise your efforts will be impeded by people who keep circuiting these boards.
Maeglin_Dubh 02-21-08, 07:50 PM	OhmG. You sure could kilo-watta people with that trick. This is surely the pico throwing weaponry optimization. Yeah, I had to use tricky spelling. But really, I want to try that.
skydragonknight 02-21-08, 08:13 PM	Now all we need to do is transform this into a build. Edit: How much of this do we even have bolted down yet?
tsuyoshikentsu 02-21-08, 10:55 PM	Eh. I've LED you this far, but someone else should probably do it.
RadicalTaoist 02-22-08, 12:17 AM	Heh, I was just referring to the weapon enhancement, not trying to start more punning. Though I must say you're all conducting yourselves well.
Green_eyes 02-22-08, 07:40 AM	Damn it. I don't have this book (hate FR, only got PGtF for Incantatrix). Is it a feat? Do you have to target two enemies? Or just two targets? Beacause earth is like AC 10, no? Better yet, how do we fit it in one of the chaingun thrower builds?
BetaSquirrell 02-22-08, 02:54 PM	The Earth is AC -6. 10 base, -16 size, +0 dexterity.
skydragonknight 02-22-08, 03:50 PM	The Earth is AC -6. 10 base, -16 size, +0 dexterity. Better yet, if you throw yourself at the ground and miss with a nat 1, you get flying as an EX ability.
The_Mad_Linguist 02-22-08, 04:03 PM	Better yet, if you throw yourself at the ground and miss with a nat 1, you get flying as an EX ability. Unfortunately for spellcasters, you have to fail a concentration check each round to keep it going.
Commx 02-22-08, 05:02 PM	The Earth is AC -6. 10 base, -16 size, +0 dexterity. Actually, a planet is an object and thus is treated as if it had Dex 0 instead of Dex -, giving it a -5 Dexterity for a total AC of -21. Now, for the obligatory bad puns: "It must be shocking to see someone jump of such a point and completely miss the plane below.
skydragonknight 02-22-08, 08:47 PM	Now, for the obligatory bad puns: "It must be shocking to see someone jump of such a point and completely miss the plane below. That's worse that the Yuanti Sorceress who casts the Genesis spell to make a base for a Yuanti army. She called it "Snakes on a Plane."
RadicalTaoist 02-22-08, 10:42 PM	The only way to kill a pun infection is to expose it to an external source of punnage even stronger than itself. I may have found that source, so that people follow it and thus leave their puns from here. A woman in liquor production Owns a still of exquisite construction. The alcohol boils Through magnetic coils. She says that it's "proof by induction." (http://limerickdb.com/?34) I wondered why the baseball was getting bigger. Then it hit me. Police were called to a day care where a three-year-old was resisting a rest. Did you hear about the guy whose whole left side was cut off? He's all right now. The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference. The butcher backed up into the meat grinder and got a little behind in his work. To write with a broken pencil is pointless. When fish are in schools they sometimes take debate. A thief who stole a calendar got twelve months. A thief fell and broke his leg in wet cement. He became a hardened criminal. Thieves who steal corn from a garden could be charged with stalking. We'll never run out of math teachers because they always multiply. When the smog lifts in Los Angeles, U.C.L.A. The math professor went crazy with the blackboard. He did a number on it. The professor discovered that her theory of earthquakes was on shaky ground. The dead batteries were given out free of charge. If you take a laptop computer for a run you could jog your memory. A dentist and a manicurist fought tooth and nail. A bicycle can't stand alone; it is two tired. A will is a dead giveaway. A backward poet writes inverse. In a democracy it's your vote that counts; in feudalism, it's your Count that votes. A chicken crossing the road: poultry in motion. If you don't pay your exorcist you can get repossessed. With her marriage she got a new name and a dress. Show me a piano falling down a mine shaft and I'll show you A-flat miner. When a clock is hungry it goes back four seconds. The guy who fell onto an upholstery machine was fully recovered. A grenade fell onto a kitchen floor in France, resulting in Linoleum Blownapart. You are stuck with your debt if you can't budge it. Local Area Network in Australia: The LAN down under. He broke into song because he couldn't find the key. A calendar's days are numbered. A lot of money is tainted: 'Taint yours, and 'taint mine. A boiled egg is hard to beat. A plateau is a high form of flattery. Those who get too big for their britches will be exposed in the end. When you've seen one shopping center you've seen a mall. If you jump off a Paris bridge, you are in Seine. When she saw her first strands of gray hair, she thought she'd dye. Bakers trade bread recipes on a knead to know basis. Santa's helpers are subordinate clauses. Acupuncture: a jab well done Whoo. I'm spent. So can we get back to ricocheting chakrams now?
Green_eyes 02-23-08, 04:53 AM	Yeah, can you tell more bout this thingie? For those of us who don't have the book.
skydragonknight 02-23-08, 07:14 AM	Yeah, can you tell more bout this thingie? For those of us who don't have the book. +1. Full text please. You can't optimize hard work without breaking a sweat.
Maeglin_Dubh 02-23-08, 01:33 PM	Prereqs: Dex 13, BAB +1, Proficient with chakram Benefit: If you hit a creature with a thrown chakram, you can cause it to ricochet and strike a secondary target in an adjacent square (withing 5 feet of the primary target). You immediately make an attack roll against the secondary target, at a -2 penalty. If the attack hits, you deal damage normally. Special: A rogue with Chakram Ricochet can deal sneak attack damage to both targets it they are within 30 feet and denied their Dexterity bonus to AC.
CrimsonDeath 02-23-08, 04:28 PM	One might argue that the secondary target was not hit with a thrown chakram, but rather with a ricocheted one. If that is the case, the feat doesn't trigger when it hits the secondary target.
skydragonknight 02-23-08, 05:44 PM	+1 Adaptive Chakram w/ Boomerang Daze + Boomerang Ricochet?
loganic1 02-23-08, 09:14 PM	First time I was able to borrow a copy of Champion of ruin. Maybe someone can explain to me how this can possible be an infintie loop? Prereqs: Dex 13, BAB +1, Proficient with chakram Benefit: If you hit a creature with a thrown chakram, you can cause it to ricochet and strike a secondary target in an adjacent square (withing 5 feet of the primary target). You immediately make an attack roll against the secondary target, at a -2 penalty. If the attack hits, you deal damage normally. Special: A rogue with Chakram Ricochet can deal sneak attack damage to both targets it they are within 30 feet and denied their Dexterity bonus to AC. This is one of those that no sane DM would allow. I don't think the description is considered RAW, but it implies intent. Description says: "You hurl a chakram so that it strikes two enemies instead of one." One top of that, even if you ignore sanity, the basic argument for it hitting only two target, is in the wording. A) You designate your primary target, and designate your secondary target, within 5 feet of your first. Even when the chakram hits the second target, that does not then become the primary target. It's still the secondary target, and nothing happens after that. It's not limited by a number of times per round, like Cleave, so if you throw 3 chakrams, ie have 3 primary targets for your chakrams, then you can have a secondary target for each. B) CrimsonDeath, I have no idea what you are talking about, but ricochet by definition means it bounces. There's no splitting, no additional chakram magically appearing. You seem to be describing that. I went back to look at how WoTC has written chain spells. Oddly enough, they're worded so that, rather than a long chain, after the initial target, it can be interpreted as forking to each secondary target from the primary one. (similar to forked lighning in Warcraft 3)
CrimsonDeath 02-24-08, 03:01 AM	B) CrimsonDeath, I have no idea what you are talking about, but ricochet by definition means it bounces. There's no splitting, no additional chakram magically appearing. You seem to be describing that. I know very well what a ricochet is. My point is that you don't throw the chakram at the second creature. You throw it at the first creature, and it bounces at the second. So, one might argue that Chakram Ricochet won't trigger when it hits the second target because it wasn't thrown at the second target. I wasn't saying that a new chakram magically appears, only that the nature of what the chakram is doing changes from having been thrown to having ricocheted.
skydragonknight 02-24-08, 10:37 AM	I know very well what a ricochet is. My point is that you don't throw the chakram at the second creature. You throw it at the first creature, and it bounces at the second. So, one might argue that Chakram Ricochet won't trigger when it hits the second target because it wasn't thrown at the second target. I wasn't saying that a new chakram magically appears, only that the nature of what the chakram is doing changes from having been thrown to having ricocheted. For the sake of argument... Isn't a Chakram a "thrown" weapon? And after it is first "thrown", does it not remain "thrown" until it either literally hits the dirt or returning kicks in? The text says "when you hit a creature with a thrown Chakram." It doesn't say anything about the creature you hit being the target of the thrown weapon or about you throwing the Chakram at the creature, only that the Chakram has to have been "thrown" at some point. So before you toss the whole idea away, let's tear apart the language like we always do and see if there isn't some minor technicality we can exploit.
CrimsonDeath 02-24-08, 01:28 PM	Sure, you can define it that way instead. It doesn't really matter to me which way it's read. I was just suggesting a way a legalistic DM could interpret the feat to prevent the pinball chakram. The reading that loganic1 came up with is probably better (or at least as good) for that purpose.
loganic1 02-24-08, 01:59 PM	Sorry CrimsonDeath, I hadn't read the entire thread, and misunderstood when you differentiated the thrown with the ricocheted as being two separate chakrams. I agree with what you mean then, such that it's thrown at the primary target and ricochets to the secondary target. 'Thrown' weapon just means it must be thrown the hit the primary target. It doesn't matter how you hit the secondary targets. It's not magically thrown from the primary target to the secondary target, and therefore can't be justified as hitting another target. Yes it was 'thrown' in the general past, but if you use that definition, you could justify hitting adjacent targets even in melee, if you have ever thrown that chakram, which is moronic, so 'thrown' must refer to the immediate past, which does not extend past the primary target.
skydragonknight 02-24-08, 03:38 PM	Yes it was 'thrown' in the general past, but if you use that definition, you could justify hitting adjacent targets even in melee, if you have ever thrown that chakram, which is moronic, so 'thrown' must refer to the immediate past, which does not extend past the primary target. I was going for "thrown" being a state that defines a ranged non-projectile weapon with the duration being "1 attack action". Still, we can all agree that the wording is open to interpretation, enough so that indeed this would be easy to shut down in practice. I was just trying another angle, so to speak, to see if it could be spun in a way that it worked. I've made my pitch. YMMV.
PonTelon 02-28-08, 12:54 PM	I used this feat with my low-level Ninja kobold o'dhoom. I was far outdamaging most of the other party members(assuming two enemies were standing next to each other). I use Invisibility then attack two people and getting Sneak Attack on both(since the secondary target is still part of the first attack, and thus get sneak attack on both after Invis breaks.) Ninja 2/Rogue 3 does 1d6+3d6 damage to two targets in one round is not bad for level 5. (I think Chakram was 1d6 damage...been a long time since I played him). 8d6 at level 5. This feat is rather fun, overall. <insert pun here>
skydragonknight 03-05-08, 10:40 AM	I used this feat with my low-level Ninja kobold o'dhoom. I was far outdamaging most of the other party members(assuming two enemies were standing next to each other). I use Invisibility then attack two people and getting Sneak Attack on both(since the secondary target is still part of the first attack, and thus get sneak attack on both after Invis breaks.) Ninja 2/Rogue 3 does 1d6+3d6 damage to two targets in one round is not bad for level 5. (I think Chakram was 1d6 damage...been a long time since I played him). 8d6 at level 5. This feat is rather fun, overall. <insert pun here> Actually, Ninja's invisibility lasts a full round, not just one attack. It never says "as the spell." So yeah, keep it up and your foes won't stand a Ghost of a chance since you'll always be a Step ahead of them.