Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RebirthofDragon 01-16-08, 01:01 AM	Hey guys. A brief introduction: I'm somewhat new to D&D, been playing for almost a year, but I find character optimization fascinating. To me, it is like trying to piece together a puzzle you just made up from a vast collection of pieces. I have seen a lot of posts on this board about multi-classing for one reason or another, and even one that multi-classed for maximum saves, but I can't seem to find anyone trying to take advantage of stacking sneak attacks (I even searched!) even though it seems so obvious. What I have so far: ROGUE 1D6 NINJA 2D6 SPELLTHIEF 3D6 FIGHTER VAR 4D6 (Fighter variant from UA) EXPERT 6D6 (2D6 Sneak Attack generic-class ability) ASSASSIN 7D6 ROUGE VAR 8D6 (Wilderness Rouge variant from UA) WARRIOR 9D6 (Improved Sneak Attack feat) WARRIOR 13D6 (Improved Sneak Attack generic-class ability AND feat) BAB: +8/+3 And that's where I'm stuck (even WITH taking a Rogue variant, which feels a bit wrong), assuming that I am counting correctly. I can't take Greater Sneak Attack from the generic class ability list until lvl16 (because of the 18 ranks in Hide req.) and taking nothing but the Improved Sneak Attack feat for 7 levels with bonus feats feels like under-achievement. As a side note, I saw a thread about a "Ninjaficer" that had 15d6 at lvl 13, but I have no idea how that worked, and this looks like it could do more anyway. Comments? Suggestions? Harsh criticisms?
Senevri 01-16-08, 03:49 AM	Silly. 10: Swordsage+Assassin's stance extra 2d6 for 15d6. It's a shame you're lacking caster levels - ArcTrick and UnseenSeer are not available.
CrimsonDeath 01-16-08, 04:21 AM	Psychic Rogue (from a Mind's Eye article) for another +1d6. Nightsong Enforcer for yet another +1d6 (and +1 BAB). Required feat: Improved Initiative Two levels of Lurk for another +1d6 (and +1 BAB), and 2+Int mod times per day, another +1d6 via Lurk Augment (Additional Sneak Attack). If you put Practiced Manifester on either Psychic Rogue or Lurk, you can qualify for Psychic Assassin (another Mind's Eye article), for another +1d6.
FriendlyFrog 01-16-08, 05:56 AM	As a side note, I saw a thread about a "Ninjaficer" that had 15d6 at lvl 13, but I have no idea how that worked, and this looks like it could do more anyway. Spells my friend, the best sneak attackers are spellcasters/Artificers. Though you could also benefit from them, take Leadership for an Artificer cohort, have it craft a wand of Hunter's eye (PHBII), use the Metamagic item infusion to apply Persistent spell to it, and then hand it over to you. You have UMD, so you can activate the wand, and get the bonus sneak attack. Have the Artificer do all the Ninjaficer tricks for you to use, and you'll have those +14d6 sneak attack dice at level 15, in addition to what you get from class levels. Also, take a look here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=809744).
RebirthofDragon 01-16-08, 03:04 PM	OK, so... 1. ROGUE 1D6 2. NINJA 2D6 3. SPELLTHIEF 3D6 4. FIGHTER VAR 4D6 (Fighter variant from UA) 5. EXPERT 6D6 (2D6 Sneak Attack generic-class ability) 6. ASSASSIN 7D6 7. ROUGE VAR 8D6 (Wilderness Rouge variant from UA) 8. WARRIOR 9D6 (Improved Sneak Attack feat) 9. WARRIOR 13D6 (Improved Sneak Attack generic-class ability AND feat) then 10. LURK 14D6 (Additional Sneak Attack) 11. LURK 16D6 (Psionic Sneak Attack, augmented Additional Sneak Attack) 12. SWORDSAGE 19D6 (Assasin's Stance, ISA) (Plus some sneaky maneuvers) 13. NIGHTSONG ENFORCER 20D6 BAB:+10/+5 Not too bad, considering we're not using items and you can start a battle with an expected 70 sneak attack damage at level 13. This is mostly just base classes. I just started compiling a list of prestige classes (and realized that there are 7 PrCs for every base class!). Also, I'd like to stick to Wizards books. My DM doesn't allow other materials. How exactly would Hunter's Eye work? From what I saw it is a Ranger spell that gives +1D6 for every 3 (caster?) levels. So would we get that wand, cast the spell and then sneak attack with an extra +4D6?
CrimsonDeath 01-16-08, 06:50 PM	Also, I'd like to stick to Wizards books. My DM doesn't allow other materials. "Mind's Eye" is a series of WotC web publications. Does your DM not allow third-party material, or does he not allow material that's not printed in dead-tree format?
RebirthofDragon 01-19-08, 12:31 PM	I spoke to my DM and he said that he didn't want anything he'd have to go searching for. Since he has all the WotC books readily available, he wants me to stick to those. Furthermore, he says that Warrior and Expert were made for campaigns of exclusively generic classes so they're right out. So I'm down to: 1. ROGUE 1D6 2. NINJA 2D6 3. SPELLTHIEF 3D6 4. FIGHTER VAR 4D6 (Fighter variant from UA) 5. ASSASSIN 5D6 6. ROUGE VAR 6D6 (Wilderness Rouge variant from UA) 7. LURK 7D6 (Additional Sneak Attack) 8. LURK 9D6 (Psionic Sneak Attack, augmented Additional Sneak Attack) 9. SWORDSAGE 12D6 (Assasin's Stance, ISA) (Plus some sneaky maneuvers) 10. NIGHTSONG ENFORCER 13D6 My strategy now is just to find every PrC with sneak attack and stuff in as many as possible. Then buy as many sneak attack items as I can and let the hilarity ensue.
Tempest Stormwind 01-19-08, 04:28 PM	Note that you can't take Assassin's Stance with your first level of swordsage, since it isn't a first-level stance, and that low-level lurks don't have enough lurk augments to count on getting Additional Sneak Attack. I'd suggest picking up two levels of swordsage after you have four other character levels. This gives you a second stance (which CAN be Assassin's Stance) plus an increase in base attack bonus and another Wis-to-AC (doesn't stack with monk, may stack with ninja if you're strictly RAW, though errata's needed). Your other swordsage stance should be Island of Blades, which lets you flank from any angle (thus you can either score sneak attacks far more often, or boost your SA damage if you would otherwise be getting it, based on your stance). Also, with a character like this, Shadow Blade (feat, ToB) is likely worth looking into.
RebirthofDragon 01-20-08, 03:37 PM	Thanks a lot for the input Tempest! If I understand ToB correctly, at level nine my level for choosing maneuvers is 8/2+1 = 5, which would let me choose the required 3rd level stance. As for Lurk, it will be able to use the Additional Sneak Attack augment Lurk lvl + Int mod times per day. Plus, once per day the lurk can expand 2 power points to deal an extra 1D6. Shadow Blade looks good, especially i combined with something like a Ring of Greater Invisibility. However, if that doesn't work I thought it might be effective to use 2x keen Kukri and that feat that lets you add sneak attack damage on criticals (though I can't seem to find it). Also, Two-Weapon fighting appears to be one of the more effective ways to sneak in more SA damage, so I think it might be worth trying. I looked up all of the prestige classes with Sneak Attack at level 1 from crystal keep and here's what i managed to get: 1 ROGUE 1D6 (TWF) 2 W. ROGUE 2D6 3 NINJA 3D6 (IMPROVED INITIATIVE) 4 SPELLTHIEF 4D6 5 LURK 5D6 6 LURK 7D6 (PERSUASIVE) 7 NIGHTSONG ENFORCER 8D6 8 ASSASSIN 9D6 9 SWORDSAGE 11D6 (ITWF), DISCIPLINE FOCUS ->(WF(KUKRI)) 10 SHADOW THIEF OF AMN 12D6 11 GUILD THIEF 13D6 12 FIGHTER (UA) 14D6 13 RONIN 15D6 BAB: +10/+5, Up to 5 attacks per round, with an expected 262.5 SA damage if all 5 hit. It might be worth it to take an extra 2 Assassin levels for an extra 1D6 and Wraithstrike.
true_shinken 01-20-08, 09:13 PM	You can't select a level 2 stance at Swordsage 1; all stances you get at lv 1 are lv 1 stances, doesn't matter how high your IL is.
RebirthofDragon 01-20-08, 11:51 PM	You can't select a level 2 stance at Swordsage 1; all stances you get at lv 1 are lv 1 stances, doesn't matter how high your IL is. It was my understanding that the multi-classing section on page 28 which states "If you are a multi-classing martial adept and you learn a new maneuver by attaining a new level in a martial adept class, determine your initiator level by adding together your level in that class + 1/2 your levels in all other classes. Loop up the result on the table below to determine the highest-level maneuvers you can take. ... Lvl Maneuver Level 1-2 1 3-4 2 5-6 3 7-8 4..." Did I misunderstand this section? As for the rest of the levels of this Sneak Attacker, what about 7 levels of Unseen Seer taking Hunter's Eye and another spell and 2x Practices Spellcaster feat (Assassin, Unseen Seer). The effective CL for Hunter's Eye is 7 + 2(Unseen Seer + CL bonus) + 1 (Assassin) + 8 (2x Practiced Spellcaster) = 18 (Divination), or +6D6 from Hunter's Eye and +3D6 from Unseen Seer, or +9D6 from 7 levels. This means a grand total Sneak Attack of 24D6 at level 20 with access to arcane spells including Greater Invisibility and Wraithstrike. LVL CLASS SA DICE CL (SNEAK ATTACK),[FEATS],SPELLS, ETC 1 ROGUE 1 0 (1D6), [TWF] 2 W. ROGUE 2 0 (1D6) 3 NINJA 3 0 (1D6), [IMPROVED INITIATIVE] 4 SPELLTHIEF 4 0 (1D6) 5 LURK 1 5 0 (1D6) 6 LURK 2 7 0 (1D6), [PERSUASIVE],AUGMENT (+1D6) 7 NIGHTSONG ENFORCER 8 0 (1D6) 8 ASSASSIN 9 1 (1D6) 9 SWORDSAGE 11 1 [ITWF], [WF(KUKRI)], ,ASSASSIN'S STANCE (+2D6) 10 SHADOW THIEF OF AMN 12 1 (1D6) 11 GUILD THIEF 13 1 (1D6) 12 FIGHTER (UA) 14 1 (1D6), [EWF(BASTARD SWORD)] 13 RONIN 15 1 (1D6) 14 UNSEEN SEER 1 16 2 (1D6) 15 UNSEEN SEER 2 18 7 [PRACTICED SPELLCASTER CL+4], HUNTER'S EYE (2D6) 16 UNSEEN SEER 3 19 9 CL+1, HUNTER'S EYE (3D6) 17 UNSEEN SEER 4 21 14 (1D6), [PRACTICED SPELLCASTER CL+4], HUNTER'S EYE (4D6) 18 UNSEEN SEER 5 22 15 HUNTER'S EYE (5D6) 19 UNSEEN SEER 6 22 17 CL+1, HUNTER'S EYE (5D6) 20 UNSEEN SEER 7 24 18 (1D6), HUNTER'S EYE (6D6) BAB: +15.75/+10/+5 Is there a way to push this thing any further or is that it? I'd be kinda disappointed to leave it below NI.
Senevri 01-21-08, 02:09 AM	It was my understanding that the multi-classing section on page 28 Well, you're correct. However, the class description itself says explicitly that you learn a lv1 stance at lv1. lv2 stance could be lv max, sure, but not the first level one. Check the "Stances Known" section in Swordsage class description
RebirthofDragon 01-21-08, 04:41 PM	Well, you're correct. However, the class description itself says explicitly that you learn a lv1 stance at lv1. lv2 stance could be lv max, sure, but not the first level one. Check the "Stances Known" section in Swordsage class description Noooo! That wording does seem pretty explicit. And I really needed that +2D6 to bring up the average. The most I can get out of US is +2D6 above the standard (overall). The only other option would be to take 2 levels of Swordsage and then drop a class that requires a feat, taking Craven instead. Overall it will boost mean sneak attack damage by about (.57)D6 per level (and provide a bonus to AC). LVL CLASS SA DICE CL (SNEAK ATTACK),[FEATS],SPELLS, ETC 1 ROGUE 1 0 (1D6), [TWF] 2 W. ROGUE 2 0 (1D6) 3 NINJA 3 0 (1D6), [IMPROVED INITIATIVE] 4 SPELLTHIEF 4 0 (1D6) 5 LURK 1 5 0 (1D6) 6 LURK 2 7 0 (1D6), [CRAVEN],AUGMENT (+1D6) 7 NIGHTSONG ENFORCER 8 0 (1D6) 8 ASSASSIN 9 1 (1D6) 9 SWORDSAGE 9 1 [ITWF], [WF(KUKRI)] 10 SWORDSAGE 11 1 ASSASSIN'S STANCE (+2D6) 11 GUILD THIEF 12 1 (1D6) 12 FIGHTER (UA) 13 1 (1D6), [EWF(BASTARD SWORD)] 13 RONIN 14 1 (1D6) 14 UNSEEN SEER 1 15 2 (1D6) 15 UNSEEN SEER 2 17 7 [PRACTICED SPELLCASTER CL+4], HUNTER'S EYE (2D6) 16 UNSEEN SEER 3 18 9 CL+1, HUNTER'S EYE (3D6) 17 UNSEEN SEER 4 20 14 (1D6), [PRACTICED SPELLCASTER CL+4], HUNTER'S EYE (4D6) 18 UNSEEN SEER 5 21 15 HUNTER'S EYE (5D6) 19 UNSEEN SEER 6 21 17 CL+1, HUNTER'S EYE (5D6) 20 UNSEEN SEER 7 23 18 (1D6), HUNTER'S EYE (6D6) So that's it? There's no other classes/feats that would increase the SA damage?
Senevri 01-21-08, 06:47 PM	Well... Hunter's Eye is powerful. Let's see... No items... We're a Sorcerer 1... Cleric 1: Oracle + Good + feat: Sanctify Spell: +3 CL Spell: Spell Enhancer: +2 CL Rogue 1 loses a CL, gains SA. 2 level dip to Sublime Chord nets +4 CL, but may count as a -2, so that's a net total of +2, unless Complete Unseen Seer nets us +3 divination as well as 4d6 SA. Chaos Mage is a +0 to +3 class with Practiced SC. Arcane Thesis is +2 CL, Magic Tattoo can get us +1 CL Two feats nets us Assassin's Stance. Five levels of Archmage nets +10. So... Sor1Cle1Rog1Unseenseer7/Sublimechord2/ChaosMage1/USS+3Archmage+4 cannot actually finish AM in time. That's a total of... um, our Sorcerer divination CL is: 16 +4 archmage +4practicedspellcaster+2sublimechord+3cl eric+3USS. 32-35. +1 from tattoo and CL for Hunter's Eye is 4 higher, for a total of 37-39. Sublime Chord level is two higher. In addition, we have 1+4+2 SA by default, so we're at 17-19D6. with just the spell. Let's see... Leadership gets us a Bard cohort who can use Hymn of Praise for +2 CL, Can we get Domain Focus? That would net another +1, Spell Thematics for another +1, Reserve feat for another +1... that's 5 more, or another d6. ...Meh. Drop Archmage levels, as those only net us +2/3d6 per level, and get 4d6 from there instead. CL 34-36 is a solid 11 dice, for +23 SA, or possibly one die more. round and round, and I'm at the same number. How pointless.
The_Mad_Linguist 01-21-08, 09:33 PM	Snowcasting and an ioun stone give you +2 more... Be a kobold for an extra free sorc level.
RebirthofDragon 01-23-08, 05:10 PM	round and round, and I'm at the same number. How pointless. Not at all. Knowing that this is effectively the maximum number of SA dice a character can have, it is possible to start looking for ways to deliver more hits and maximize damage. I think that two weapon fighting and the Assassin spells Greater Invisibiltiy and Wraithstrike accomplish a great deal to this end. Wraithstrike makes foes easier to hit and being invisible guarantees SA damage.
NiteCyper 01-27-08, 01:02 AM	Using Unseen Seer to advance Assassin spellcasting? Why didn't I think of that? That makes a pure awesome combo. One thing, how are you gonna deal with a Nymph's Blinding Beauty?
RebirthofDragon 02-12-08, 01:49 PM	Sry I haven't posted in so long, but real life got exciting all of a sudden. To be honest, I have no idea how to effectively deal with Blinding Beauty. The only thing I can think of would be casting Sniper's Eye and SAing with a bow from 60' away, but that's not 'till lvl 12 (see below). So, here's my best effort at a playable SA Death Machine: LEVEL CL (DIV) CLASS HP SA SA DMG BAB SPELLS FORT REF WILL FEATS 1 0 ROGUE 3.5 1 5.5 3/4 1/3 2 1/2 1/3 CRAVEN 2 0 ROGUE 7 1 7.5 1 1/2 2/3 3 2/3 3 0 ROGUE 10.5 2 13.0 2 1/4 1 3 1/2 1 X 4 0 NINJA 14 3 18.5 3 1 1/3 6 1 1/3 5 0 FIGHTER VAR 18.5 4 24.0 4 3 5/6 6 1/3 1 2/3 6 5 ASSASSIN 22 5 29.5 4 3/4 4 1/6 8 5/6 2 PRACTICED SPELLCASTER 7 6 ASSASSIN 25.5 5 31.5 5 1/2 4 1/2 9 1/3 2 1/3 8 7 ASSASSIN 29 6 37.0 6 1/4 WRAITHSTRIKE! 4 5/6 9 5/6 2 2/3 9 8 UNSEEN SEER 31.5 7 42.5 7 5 1/6 10 1/6 5 1/6 EXTEND SPELL 10 9 UNSEEN SEER 34 10 55.0 7 3/4 (HUNTER'S EYE) 5 1/2 10 1/2 5 2/3 (SILENT SPELL) 11 11 UNSEEN SEER 36.5 10 57.0 8 1/2 5 5/6 10 5/6 6 1/6 12 13 UNSEEN SEER 39 12 66.0 9 1/4 GREATER INVIS 6 1/6 11 1/6 6 2/3 PRACTICED SPELLCASTER 13 14 UNSEEN SEER 41.5 12 68.0 10 6 1/2 11 1/2 7 1/6 14 16 UNSEEN SEER 44 13 73.5 10 3/4 6 5/6 11 5/6 7 2/3 15 17 UNSEEN SEER 46.5 14 79.0 11 1/2 7 1/6 12 1/6 8 1/6 X After that all you have to do is keep taking +1D6 @ lvl 1 classes and you'll gain 1CL/lvl from practiced spellcaster for 4 levels for CL(DIV) 21 at LVL 19. I've included expected sneak attack damage (counting Craven) per hit as well as expected HP (assuming 10 Con). Clearly this build needs a high Con as well as the Rogue's Evasion ability to stay alive vs AoE damage (Invisibility should cover the rest). 3 open feats can be used for Two Weapon Fighting or Manyshot (replace Wraithstrike with Spectral Weapon) progressions to maximize the number of hits. You have the following spell levels available: SPELL LVL CHAR LVL 1 6 2 8 3 10 4 12 With maximum Assassin spells at lvl 15. If someone actually tries this, let me know. P.S. The reason I say "let me know" is that when I showed this to my then DM, he said that he'd let me play it, but he'd make damn sure we only went up against stuff immune to SA. Spoilsport.
loganic1 02-12-08, 10:59 PM	Bloodlines make everything better. (read sneak attack damage for everything)
altpersona 02-15-08, 05:42 PM	i didnt think bloodlines worked for SA
crow04 02-15-08, 07:46 PM	I think i found a simple way to increase that 23 dice number. Factorum 19/prestige1 with SA at first. Use your cunning brilliance to copy the sneak attack ability of the rogue, the sudden strike of a ninja and the sneak attack of the spellthief. Also, that martial stance for assassin's stance, and max umd. In combat, use all three copied ablities and UMD a 18th leval scroll of hunter's eye. If my math is right, you have SA dice of 34, which can go higher with higher level scrolls, or if you're ok with the UMDing of a staff getting ridculous caster levals. This leaves most feats free, but is only useable one min per day.
loganic1 02-16-08, 02:51 PM	i didnt think bloodlines worked for SA Are you kidding? SA is one of the poster child's for Bloodlines abuse, only second to caster levels. It's a class ability, easy to calculate bonuses. EB damage works, obviously SA is going to stack.
altpersona 02-16-08, 06:28 PM	its not based on class level... it could be argued that its based on every few levels... i think thats a weak argument.. i dont know that i can make a great argument that its not based on class lvl, but as an illustration of my point, no prc (that i know of) advances your rogue lvl for SA. some give SA dice, but dont say, add this class to your rogue class to determine your SA dice.. (they do, do that for caster lvl and monk abilities, and some other stuff...) i could be wrong... but i dont think SA works w/ bloodlines...
loganic1 02-16-08, 09:19 PM	Isn't that what this thread is about? If you take levels of any other class that gives sneak attack dice, it stacks with all other bonuses to your sneak attack dice. Assassin doesn't need to say it stays with your rogue levels, because it's implicit. I guess, it's easy to say a rogues Sneak attack damage is level/2 +1 This can be proven RAW by a simple PrC example. If you take a PrC that adds levels to a previous class, and you choose to take rogue, then you will implicitly gain sneak attack. As such, it's a calculation by level.
archerpwr 02-16-08, 09:58 PM	Isn't that what this thread is about? If you take levels of any other class that gives sneak attack dice, it stacks with all other bonuses to your sneak attack dice. Assassin doesn't need to say it stays with your rogue levels, because it's implicit. I guess, it's easy to say a rogues Sneak attack damage is level/2 +1 This can be proven RAW by a simple PrC example. If you take a PrC that adds levels to a previous class, and you choose to take rogue, then you will implicitly gain sneak attack. As such, it's a calculation by level. Now, where does it actually state that you calculate sneak attack dice? Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Note that it is addition, not a function. We've got to have an ability that explicitly gives a formula to use bloodlines.
loganic1 02-17-08, 08:46 AM	Now, where does it actually state that you calculate sneak attack dice? Note that it is addition, not a function. We've got to have an ability that explicitly gives a formula to use bloodlines. Where is X is the sneak attack dice, round down. X = level/2 +1 "The extra damage is at 1st level an increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter." PHB 50 Thus sneak attack is proven to be a calculable class ability. This can be generalize for all cases of sneak attack damage, ie every other class that grants it, with an implicit progression, based on the class/PrC
archerpwr 02-17-08, 01:37 PM	Where is X is the sneak attack dice, round down. X = level/2 +1 "The extra damage is at 1st level an increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter." PHB 50 Thus sneak attack is proven to be a calculable class ability. This can be generalize for all cases of sneak attack damage, ie every other class that grants it, with an implicit progression, based on the class/PrC You realize that you're making an argument as fighter bonus feats being calculated abilities, right? Unless a formula that has class level as the independent variable is given it doesn't work with bloodlines. Calculate man, calculate.
altpersona 02-17-08, 01:51 PM	not to argue against myself.. but fighter and bloodlines can go together for one instance i can think of... beside initiator lvl.. hows about the weapon spec tree has a fighter level requirement... fighter 1, warblade 1, bloodline 3 = 5th lvl / 6th fighter lvl i dont know of any other class's that would stack on to make it worth it..
skydragonknight 02-17-08, 01:53 PM	You realize that you're making an argument as fighter bonus feats being calculated abilities, right? Unless a formula that has class level as the independent variable is given it doesn't work with bloodlines. Calculate man, calculate. It sounds weird to say this...but I think archerpwr is right. Bloodlines work for things that say "class level" like the extra damage from Smite Evil, the healing available from Lay on Hands or the save DC for a Knight's Challenge. Edit: Daring Outlaw might work with bloodlines though, giving sneak attack as a Rogue of Rogue lvl + Swashbuckler lvl + 6.
archerpwr 02-17-08, 02:01 PM	Edit: Daring Outlaw might work with bloodlines though, giving sneak attack as a Rogue of Rogue lvl + Swashbuckler lvl + 6. Y'know, that just might work. Not sure it's cost efficient though.
altpersona 02-17-08, 04:58 PM	nice. so that gets 1 stacking for 4 SA dice @ 5th lvl. or 5 @ 6th... not bad for 2 class's but your a frail little thing, maybe 18 hp at 6th lvl, compare to mage 19 hp @ 6th, max at first and average after that...
umbralspace 02-23-08, 12:41 PM	yea, just thought id throw in another free 2d6 if u can find the feats for it. Bind vestige and bind vestige improved from "Tome of Magic" Essentially it allows u to bind up to 5th level vestiges. Then just bind the Adromalius "The Repentant Rogue" and get the 2d6 special ability. You sorta gain 1 extra digit on each limb and take a -1 to everything if u steal, even from a corpse, but if u want another 2d6, this is a way to do it.
CrimsonDeath 02-23-08, 04:26 PM	Unfortunately, Sneak Attack isn't one of the abilities available from Andromalius through the Bind Vestige feat. Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige will get Sense Trickery from Andromalius, and Practiced Binder will add See the Unseen. To get Sneak Attack from Andromalius, you'd need three levels of Binder and the Improved Binding feat.
KAZZ_DRAGON_GOD 04-04-08, 12:32 AM	You can't select a level 2 stance at Swordsage 1; all stances you get at lv 1 are lv 1 stances, doesn't matter how high your IL is. If you multiclass, you can count half your other char lvls toward your martial lvls: example: Swordsage 1/ Fighter 8 would have a martial lvl of 5
CrimsonDeath 04-05-08, 04:05 AM	If you multiclass, you can count half your other char lvls toward your martial lvls: example: Swordsage 1/ Fighter 8 would have a martial lvl of 5 That's true. But it's also irrelevant, because if you look at the "Stances" entry, it explicitly states that you gain a level 1 stance at class level 1. It's not until the next time you gain a stance that your initiator level even matters.
KAZZ_DRAGON_GOD 04-05-08, 08:16 PM	Not tryng to be **** or anything, but if you take 8 vls of fighter, then 1 lvl of swordsage, you only know one stance, or vice versa. Just because you are only SS 1, you are not limited to only 1st lvl stances, you can select any stance for which you meet the prereq upto 3rd lvl. Not sure what your statement is about. Sorry
crow04 04-05-08, 08:36 PM	Not tryng to be **** or anything, but if you take 8 vls of fighter, then 1 lvl of swordsage, you only know one stance, or vice versa. Just because you are only SS 1, you are not limited to only 1st lvl stances, you can select any stance for which you meet the prereq upto 3rd lvl. Not sure what your statement is about. Sorry re-read the languge on the 1st level of swordsage. it states you learn a 1st leval stance.
Commx 04-06-08, 03:31 AM	Not tryng to be **** or anything, but if you take 8 vls of fighter, then 1 lvl of swordsage, you only know one stance, or vice versa. Just because you are only SS 1, you are not limited to only 1st lvl stances, you can select any stance for which you meet the prereq upto 3rd lvl. Not sure what your statement is about. Sorry The description of the Swordsage litteraly says that you get a Lvl1 Stance at first level. So it does not matter what your IL might be, you still get a Lvl1 stance. This has already been discussed on the first page.
KAZZ_DRAGON_GOD 04-06-08, 02:43 PM	The description of the Swordsage litteraly says that you get a Lvl1 Stance at first level. So it does not matter what your IL might be, you still get a Lvl1 stance. This has already been discussed on the first page. OK, the exact text says that you BEGIN play with the knowledge of 1 1st lvl stance. All spell casters say the same thing that the BEGIN play with knowledge of x 1st lvl spells so on and so forth. But if the spell caster multi classes into a class that gives him +1 to existing class he doesn't only know the spells from 1st lvl of his orginal class. When you multi-class with any martial class, 1/2 those lvls count toward your IL, ultimately giving +1/2 your "existing class". You are over thinking it all, it's quite simple. Go to D & D home and ask the sage, it'll all come clear to you then..............sorry to cause ripples in the pond, but it is what it is.
archerpwr 04-06-08, 02:48 PM	OK, the exact text says that you BEGIN play with the knowledge of 1 1st lvl stance. All spell casters say the same thing that the BEGIN play with knowledge of x 1st lvl spells so on and so forth. But if the spell caster multi classes into a class that gives him +1 to existing class he doesn't only know the spells from 1st lvl of his orginal class. When you multi-class with any martial class, 1/2 those lvls count toward your IL, ultimately giving +1/2 your "existing class". You are over thinking it all, it's quite simple. Go to D & D home and ask the sage, it'll all come clear to you then..............sorry to cause ripples in the pond, but it is what it is. Umm, read the text. This is RAW, not your house rules. It's a mechanic to discourage dipping of martial adepts just for a high level stance. Get over it.
KAZZ_DRAGON_GOD 04-06-08, 03:05 PM	[QUOTE=archerpwr;15537610]Umm, read the text. This is RAW, not your house rules. It's a mechanic to discourage dipping of martial adepts just for a high level stance. Get over it.[/QUOTE WHATEVER, not my fault you lack reading comprehension skills. ASK THE SAGE on D & D home, they'll tell you the same.
KAZZ_DRAGON_GOD 04-06-08, 03:12 PM	WHATEVER, not my fault you lack reading comprehension skills. ASK THE SAGE on D & D home, they'll tell you the same.
archerpwr 04-06-08, 03:23 PM	WHATEVER, not my fault you lack reading comprehension skills. ASK THE SAGE on D & D home, they'll tell you the same. Do you know how often the sage has been right? The Sage has been wrong on several occasions. Just refer to the text.
KAZZ_DRAGON_GOD 04-06-08, 03:29 PM	OK whatever, I have sent an E-mail to D & D home, and once I receive the answer, even if I'm wrong, I'll post it. So until then have fun in your world.
KAZZ_DRAGON_GOD 04-06-08, 03:42 PM	I just got the response, so this is settled. Now you can continue using YOUR HOUSE RULES............... Good question. Though learned separately, stances are a specific type of maneuver. You could learn up to 3rd level stances. Good Gaming! We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. <a href="http://www.wizards.com/survey/custservemail0105.htm"> Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire</a>. Joe Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST
KAZZ_DRAGON_GOD 04-06-08, 03:45 PM	OOPS this was the orginal question I submitted Customer 04/06/2008 12:26 PM If I have a multiclass Swordsage 1 / Fighter 8, I have an IL of 5, which gives me access to 3rd lvl manuevers. What is the highest lvl stance that I am able to take?
archerpwr 04-06-08, 03:50 PM	Customer service has a worse reputation for reading the rules than the sage. We won't agree just because XYZ says so. We need logical explanation and text.
KAZZ_DRAGON_GOD 04-06-08, 04:02 PM	DUDE, give up, look at pg 5 in ToB, it states "A stance is a special type of manuever." True, if you take SS1, then fighter, you only know the one first lvl stance. But if you take Ftr8, then SS1, you could know 1 stance of up to 3rd lvl. It all depends on the build. So with that said, continue using YOUR HOUSE RULES!
archerpwr 04-06-08, 04:03 PM	DUDE, give up, look at pg 5 in ToB, it states "A stance is a special type of manuever." True, if you take SS1, then fighter, you only know the one first lvl stance. But if you take Ftr8, then SS1, you could know 1 stance of up to 3rd lvl. It all depends on the build. So with that said, continue using YOUR HOUSE RULES! Now go read the warblade, swordsage, and crusader class entries.
KAZZ_DRAGON_GOD 04-06-08, 04:12 PM	I did, it says you BEGIN play with the knowledge of 1 first lvl stance, they are assuming you are starting a first lvl char in that class. Show me where it says you get 2nd lvl stances. No text on that only on manuevers, which a stance is. And it only tells you the max numer of stance you may attain, never the lvl. To get the lvl you must go to pg 39 and use the chart. Like I said If you start with the martial class, you are limited to the single first lvl stance, but if you start in another class, then go to the martial class it opens up more for you. Gotta think a little to figure this out, need to read a total of 3 pages, 5-16-39.
archerpwr 04-06-08, 04:15 PM	I did, it says you BEGIN play with the knowledge of 1 first lvl stance, they are assuming you are starting a first lvl char in that class. Show me where it says you get 2nd lvl stances. No text on that only on manuevers, which a stance is. And it only tells you the max numer of stance you may attain, never the lvl. To get the lvl you must go to pg 39 and use the chart. Like I said If you start with the martial class, you are limited to the single first lvl stance, but if you start in another class, then go to the martial class it opens up more for you. Gotta think a little to figure this out, need to read a total of 3 pages, 5-16-39. By similar logic you can exchange stances at even levels for higher level stances.
KAZZ_DRAGON_GOD 04-06-08, 04:18 PM	No it states that "Unlike manuevers, you cannot learn a new stance at higher levels in place of one you already knew." LIKE I SAID READ PG 5-16-39, simple elementary.
archerpwr 04-06-08, 04:22 PM	No it states that "Unlike manuevers, you cannot learn a new stance at higher levels in place of one you already knew." LIKE I SAID READ PG 5-16-39, simple elementary. Exactly. Stances do not follow all rules for learning maneuvers. Thus the restriction on each of the three ToB base classes of learning a 1st level stance at first level of the class is illogical but exists. People hashed this out back when ToB first came out. Being different doesn't make you right. Reading the rules makes you right.
KAZZ_DRAGON_GOD 04-06-08, 04:25 PM	Once again, the class text assumes you begin play with a frst lvl char of that class. Dude, this is so lame, the text is clear, if you multiclass into it, you did not begin play as that class. Any continue to use YOUR HOUSE RULES, and enjoy your world.
archerpwr 04-06-08, 04:29 PM	Once again, the class text assumes you begin play with a frst lvl char of that class. Dude, this is so lame, the text is clear, if you multiclass into it, you did not begin play as that class. Any continue to use YOUR HOUSE RULES, and enjoy your world. The text never states that it assumes that your first character level is in that class.
KAZZ_DRAGON_GOD 04-06-08, 04:31 PM	When do I get a 2nd lvl stance?
archerpwr 04-06-08, 04:36 PM	When do I get a 2nd lvl stance? There are no second level stances.
KAZZ_DRAGON_GOD 04-06-08, 04:37 PM	ok 3rd lvl then, oops sorry
archerpwr 04-06-08, 04:41 PM	ok 3rd lvl then, oops sorry When you are given a stance that is not stated to be first level and your IL is high enough. It varies depending on your build. Typical is level 8 though (non IL 6/ IL 2). For warblades it's probably 6 (Warblade 2/ non IL 2/ warblade 2).
KAZZ_DRAGON_GOD 04-06-08, 04:43 PM	no chart nor text ever states when you gain a new stance only manuever, once again when do i gain a 3rd lvl stance. need text and logical reasoning
KAZZ_DRAGON_GOD 04-06-08, 04:45 PM	oops higher lvl stance, not new stance
archerpwr 04-06-08, 04:46 PM	no chart nor text ever states when you gain a new stance only manuever, once again when do i gain a 3rd lvl stance. need text and logical reasoning .[The quoted user has been put on ignore].
CrimsonDeath 04-08-08, 02:08 AM	OK, the exact text says that you BEGIN play with the knowledge of 1 1st lvl stance. So you're saying that, if you multiclass as a Martial Adept rather than beginning play as one, you don't get your level 1 stance at all? Because that's just silly. All spell casters say the same thing that the BEGIN play with knowledge of x 1st lvl spells so on and so forth. But if the spell caster multi classes into a class that gives him +1 to existing class he doesn't only know the spells from 1st lvl of his orginal class. If the class says that you gain new spells and spells per day as though you had gained an additional level of the class. Consider the Heirophant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/hierophant.htm), which increases caster level but does not grant new spells. Also note that if you take a +1 Spellcasting class without any actual spellcasting levels (such as the Human Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon)), the +1 Spellcasting class feature is wasted, even if you gain a spellcasting class later. So there's no actual precedent for what happens if a spellcaster multiclasses into a spellcasting class with several effective caster levels already under his belt. When you multi-class with any martial class, 1/2 those lvls count toward your IL, ultimately giving +1/2 your "existing class". Which lets you choose higher-level maneuvers. However, the stance gained at level 1 is explicitly a level 1 stance. You are over thinking it all, it's quite simple. Archerpwr argued (and I agreed) that the correct interpretation is precisely what the text says. You are the one making comparisons, analogies, and interpretations. I submit that it is you who are overthinking. Go to D & D home and ask the sage, it'll all come clear to you then Perhaps if a proper question is asked. CustServ and the Sage are ridiculously easy to mislead, especially by asking an incomplete question. (I'd ask myself, but I can't figure out how to send in a question...)
Shiladie 04-08-08, 08:54 AM	damn, CD beat me to that smackdown KAZZ you really need to calm down and read the rules, you were both belligerent AND wrong... no chart nor text ever states when you gain a new stance only manuever, once again when do i gain a 3rd lvl stance. need text and logical reasoning this makes me wonder if you've even read through the book...