Spartan weapons in DnD terms [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spartan weapons in DnD terms [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RazielK
10-09-07, 03:00 PM I was doing some research on the Spartan Spear and Sword.

I was thinking the spear is the regular spear in the Players Handbook.

Also, would the sword be a Falchion?
Arriurra
10-09-07, 04:18 PM No the sword is a MW short sword. Best used in Phalanx fighting.:D which is a awesome tactic and feat.
RazielK
10-09-07, 04:47 PM MW is martial weapon right?
Jenrock
10-09-07, 04:54 PM While the short sword is a martial weapon, I'm pretty sure the MW stands for masterwork, at least in this case.
RazielK
10-09-07, 05:06 PM OK.

So, which spear would it be? Longspear? Shortspear? Regular spear? (Yes they do have it in PHB.)
farmboymdp
10-09-07, 07:21 PM Well I'd say they used Shortspears, since they're one-handed weapons. I'd also put them with Heavy Steel Shields given their size and composition.
Nadaka
10-10-07, 09:19 AM they use 3.0 lances, the kind you can one hand with reach even while on foot.
RazielK
10-10-07, 02:41 PM Well unfortunately I need a 3.5 weapon, so shortspear it is.
waiwode
10-11-07, 06:10 PM This is, unfortunately, a case where the advantages of 3.5 is also one of the drawbacks of 3.5.

The weapons were all designed to balance out, point and game effect wise. However when it comes to historic recreation, there's just no way to justify the +/- 9' long greek spear, carried by the hoplites (along with their large hoplon, the shields with the ^ or lambda symbol carried by the Spartans) as short spears.

It gets stranger when you get to proper Alexander+ era phalangites, who carried a sarissa, basically a 3 to 7 meter long pike, and a hoplon.

I guess the Ancient Greeks were lucky ... D&D 3.5 hadn't been released yet! :)

Doug.
Arriurra
10-11-07, 07:22 PM haha that last post was good.
Any way the Spartans carried a Dori.
The closest thing to it in D&D I find is the Trident. It does the damage, and it can be flung. Sure it doesn't have a x3 crit. but its one handed. now the sword is called a Xiphos, its said that it was around a dagger "like" length. so I call for a Short Sword Master Work (because Spartans were master craftsmen). Now as far as Armor and Shield go, Sparta was the only city state to actually pay for the soldiers armor. Because Spartans were warriors first. Spartans were armored with bronze breast and back plates, and a helmet of Corinthian style. That last one is apparent right? and a heavy steel shield. And you Have a Spartan soldier.:D
RazielK
10-11-07, 10:15 PM Why wouldn't the Spartans have the "Throw Anything" feat? The sword was short enough to be thrown, the Spear was definitely thrown and if the soldier had enough momentum or strength the shield could be thrown.
Arriurra
10-12-07, 09:35 AM Why wouldn't the Spartans have the "Throw Anything" feat? The sword was short enough to be thrown, the Spear was definitely thrown and if the soldier had enough momentum or strength the shield could be thrown.

Why would a good soldier get rid of his weapon? The spear was only thrown at targets of opprotunity. Never does a soldier discard his weapon. If they do they were trained poorly. And the Spartans used Phalanx fighting, something that requires all members of the formation to have a shield to have a good defense, if someone is missing their shield it leaves a gap, a weakness.
RazielK
10-12-07, 03:36 PM 1. Spears can be used to be thrown.
2. The Phalanx, while incredibly strong, can break or become a little scattered in the heat of battle.
3. When thrown properly and at the right timing, the weapon can be recovered.

The main reason for my above post was to attempt to recreate a Spartan without needing to magically enhance the weapon. My apologies for not having cleared that up earlier.
Ossian
10-13-07, 06:42 AM What helps, in-game, is to draw a distinction between historical re enactment and fiction.
What most of us do, esp. using D&D, is the to stick to the latter. So, if that is the case, I suppose a bit of cinematic enhancement won't unbalance the game. Just like a kung fu master would never even DREAM to do what Jackie Chan does in his movies. Perhaps making the oplites a 5 levels PrC accesible to a 3rd level fighter (the very elite of the greek world), you could come up with something like

Feat "Power throw" [generic]
Prereqs.: str 13, dex 13, proficient with tossed object (weapon or shield)
You can pack a little more punch than others when tossing objects to attack. +1 to damage, range increment +10%

"Improved Power Throw"
Prereqs.: str 14, dex 14, power throw, BAB +6
Your chances of scoring a crit (i.e. landing a tremendous blow) are higher. +1 to crit threat range and to crit confirmation rolls. Moreover, with the weapon you hold you threaten a space up to 4 meters beyond your normal reach. This allows you to take an AOO with a thrown weapon against a charging enemy.
Special: if you want to do this tossing a shield you have to ready it (unstrap it) AND you must already have the "Improved Shield Bash" feat.

"Spear Defense Mastery"
(this is something I have read on the order of the stick's gaming forum, but I am not sure I am recalling it correctly. I'll check)
Prereqs.: proficient with halfspear, weapon focus (halfspear)
You can set a spear against a charge as a free action. You can also attack adjacent foes with whirling maneuvers.

Sure enough, it takes a high level specialized soldier to get all the feats, but hey, they are fictional spartans. If the real ones owned everyone, can you imagine what could the 3.5 fantasy version do? ;)

Ossian
natzero
10-13-07, 11:42 AM Well in the case of the spartans yes the sword they carried really is just a MW Shortsword

Now the spear, according to textbooks and articles ive read, the Spartans carried an 8 ft fire hardened spear with bronze tipping. This was a massive spear, and really from what ive read was rarely thrown until needed. Remember the sword was not their primary weapon, the spear was. And throwing the shield :( no. heh srry but remember the spartan mothers would tell their sons to either come back with their shield or on it. In other words a man that lost his shield was shamed, i imagine if the shield was destroyed there may be better reception but bringing it back was imperative.

The spartans were good but remember that when the line broke they werent that invincible as Epominandas (may be misspelled) and the Thebens proved at Luectra (cant remember the date, but was in 380's BC i think). The entire unit had to have shields and preferably spears at all times.

I guess if i had to put the gear in dnd terms id say:
Spear- MW Spear (why not)
Sword- MW shortsword
Shield- Large "Steel" Shield (remember in dnd bronze gets minuses)
Armor- Breastplate (hard to choose really) (helm,cuirass,gaunts,greaves,shin guards,SANDALS WOOOO)

Feats:
phalanx fighting
endurance
idk weapon focus spear?

Hard to say really
Srry for length, sadly id never seen d20 historical thread before :)
xXOblivionXx
10-14-07, 03:10 PM Dori.
Xiphos

Dori = the Greek word for spear, not a different kind of spear.
Xiphos = The Greek word for sword, not a different kind of sword.

heh srry but remember the spartan mothers would tell their sons to either come back with their shield or on it. In other words a man that lost his shield was shamed, i imagine if the shield was destroyed there may be better reception but bringing it back was imperative.

You are correct about what the mothers said, but not on what it meant. In ancient Sparta, it was a terrible shame to retreat/flee from battle and the dead Spartans where carried on their shields. So, in essence what the mothers said was "you return to Sparta either victorious or dead".
JosephKell
10-14-07, 06:24 PM Greeks used long spears, but not in one hand. The shield had a groove in it to rest the spear haft in.

If you watch Troy, look at the Myrmidons. Except ignore the groove on the elbow end.

So the left arm supported the shield and the shield supported the spear. You could ALMOST compare the spear use to how most people shoot in pool.

Now assuming you are talking about making a character that fights relatively alone (like most D&D games). Don't worry about the whole spear thing. Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes

I would just have a few javelins (to open up combat with) and a scimitar (critical hits make up for the 1 less average damage per hit). Or use a Khopesh, if you DM will allow it (Khopesh is an exotic weapon, 1d8, 19-20/x3, I think, or at least it is in DDO). Just don't ask me to pronounce it :D. It is either Co-Pesh or Cop-ish? Cop-pish?
natzero
10-14-07, 09:57 PM You are correct about what the mothers said, but not on what it meant. In ancient Sparta, it was a terrible shame to retreat/flee from battle and the dead Spartans where carried on their shields. So, in essence what the mothers said was "you return to Sparta either victorious or dead".

I am actually aware of this. I assumed that what i said had covered that. I can understand how the follow up could have been misunderstood, yes it meant come back victorious of dead. Now if one was to return without his shield, and alive.... Think about the reaction that would bring. I have yet to see a piece of historical literature that would explain the reaction of the fellow Spartiates, my question is.. Is he knocked down to perioikoi status? slain? banished? enslaved? who knows.
Ossian
10-15-07, 06:24 AM He would probably be asked to take his own life, but that is just my wild guess. It looked like commanders had this duty, that is, victory or death, and if you flee or are defeated (no matter what the odds were) you go the Council and face severe punishment.

Simple and effective the feat choice, but I'd swap Combat Expertise with Spring Attack. They seemed to fight a bit more offensively and CE pays off only at higher levels. It would be odd to allow for an army of 300 6th level soldiers. I'd rather a more human and still elitary one with 2nd and 3rd level fighters, which still means 4 combat related feats.

What if the feat choice was Combat Reflex (human bonus feat, plough through approaching enemy units), at 1st level dodge (gosh, in the movie they were NAKED, so much for the historical bronze breastplate!) and mobility (good defense while moving through enemy units, when they too have to provoke AOOs), at 2nd a nice "power attack" just to free the "Cleave" feat (at 3rd level), which looks a lot like a good description of what they did on the battlefield. Going up through the levels, at 4th I'd say "Spring Attack" (that is the "good captain" level) and at 6th (2 feats) "Great Cleave" (Leonidas) and "Improved Shield Bash" (they have tower shield and they bash, but they need not lose their armor bonus while doing so).

Leonidas as a legendary fighter, could have used even 1 or 2 levels of "Barbarian" to get the "Rage" and the "Uncanny dodge", and then again a last, 9th level (7th level fighter) to get one feat among "Improved Overrun", "Improved Bull rush" or perhaps "Leadership".

I' am actually a bit confused. An article said that if you take them in the right order the feats with prereqs. can be taken at the same level. Is that the same for BAB? Spring attack needs a +4 BAB, which you'd get at 4th level so...hmmm...any clues?.

Ossian
Nadaka
10-15-07, 11:43 AM He would probably be asked to take his own life, but that is just my wild guess. It looked like commanders had this duty, that is, victory or death, and if you flee or are defeated (no matter what the odds were) you go the Council and face severe punishment.

Simple and effective the feat choice, but I'd swap Combat Expertise with Spring Attack. They seemed to fight a bit more offensively and CE pays off only at higher levels. It would be odd to allow for an army of 300 6th level soldiers. I'd rather a more human and still elitary one with 2nd and 3rd level fighters, which still means 4 combat related feats.

What if the feat choice was Combat Reflex (human bonus feat, plough through approaching enemy units), at 1st level dodge (gosh, in the movie they were NAKED, so much for the historical bronze breastplate!) and mobility (good defense while moving through enemy units, when they too have to provoke AOOs), at 2nd a nice "power attack" just to free the "Cleave" feat (at 3rd level), which looks a lot like a good description of what they did on the battlefield. Going up through the levels, at 4th I'd say "Spring Attack" (that is the "good captain" level) and at 6th (2 feats) "Great Cleave" (Leonidas) and "Improved Shield Bash" (they have tower shield and they bash, but they need not lose their armor bonus while doing so).

Leonidas as a legendary fighter, could have used even 1 or 2 levels of "Barbarian" to get the "Rage" and the "Uncanny dodge", and then again a last, 9th level (7th level fighter) to get one feat among "Improved Overrun", "Improved Bull rush" or perhaps "Leadership".

I' am actually a bit confused. An article said that if you take them in the right order the feats with prereqs. can be taken at the same level. Is that the same for BAB? Spring attack needs a +4 BAB, which you'd get at 4th level so...hmmm...any clues?.

Ossian

In D&D you pick the level first, then the choices available at that level (in no particular order) So yes, at the same level you get BAB +4 you can get spring attack. Just like you can take weapon finesse at fighter 1 but not rogue 1.
Geisterkrieger
10-18-07, 09:04 PM I don't know in which campaign setting I saw the feat 'Pike and Shield'
Pike in game terms was similar to Longspear.
The feat allows you to use a longspear one handed and a shield in the other.
RazielK
10-18-07, 11:46 PM I am actually aware of this. I assumed that what i said had covered that. I can understand how the follow up could have been misunderstood, yes it meant come back victorious of dead. Now if one was to return without his shield, and alive.... Think about the reaction that would bring. I have yet to see a piece of historical literature that would explain the reaction of the fellow Spartiates, my question is.. Is he knocked down to perioikoi status? slain? banished? enslaved? who knows.

Well it would just be another cost. Sometimes there is nothing you can do in the heat of battle. It would look better than a loss on the battlefield. Spartan military men pay for their weapons and armor.
Holy_Beholder
10-21-07, 02:44 AM The Spartans would probably use a short sword and a spear, with a heavy shield. Most Greek melee would, then there would be chariots, archers, and Slingers. Athenians would probably use siege weapons(they valued intelligence more than the Spartans, and developed quite a few, although aristotle did a lot of the work personally. Between that and their walls, they were able to hold of the Spartans pretty well when they fought. They would need the phalanx fighting feat too, since it was relied on.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RazielK 10-09-07, 03:00 PM	I was doing some research on the Spartan Spear and Sword. I was thinking the spear is the regular spear in the Players Handbook. Also, would the sword be a Falchion?
Arriurra 10-09-07, 04:18 PM	No the sword is a MW short sword. Best used in Phalanx fighting.:D which is a awesome tactic and feat.
RazielK 10-09-07, 04:47 PM	MW is martial weapon right?
Jenrock 10-09-07, 04:54 PM	While the short sword is a martial weapon, I'm pretty sure the MW stands for masterwork, at least in this case.
RazielK 10-09-07, 05:06 PM	OK. So, which spear would it be? Longspear? Shortspear? Regular spear? (Yes they do have it in PHB.)
farmboymdp 10-09-07, 07:21 PM	Well I'd say they used Shortspears, since they're one-handed weapons. I'd also put them with Heavy Steel Shields given their size and composition.
Nadaka 10-10-07, 09:19 AM	they use 3.0 lances, the kind you can one hand with reach even while on foot.
RazielK 10-10-07, 02:41 PM	Well unfortunately I need a 3.5 weapon, so shortspear it is.
waiwode 10-11-07, 06:10 PM	This is, unfortunately, a case where the advantages of 3.5 is also one of the drawbacks of 3.5. The weapons were all designed to balance out, point and game effect wise. However when it comes to historic recreation, there's just no way to justify the +/- 9' long greek spear, carried by the hoplites (along with their large hoplon, the shields with the ^ or lambda symbol carried by the Spartans) as short spears. It gets stranger when you get to proper Alexander+ era phalangites, who carried a sarissa, basically a 3 to 7 meter long pike, and a hoplon. I guess the Ancient Greeks were lucky ... D&D 3.5 hadn't been released yet! :) Doug.
Arriurra 10-11-07, 07:22 PM	haha that last post was good. Any way the Spartans carried a Dori. The closest thing to it in D&D I find is the Trident. It does the damage, and it can be flung. Sure it doesn't have a x3 crit. but its one handed. now the sword is called a Xiphos, its said that it was around a dagger "like" length. so I call for a Short Sword Master Work (because Spartans were master craftsmen). Now as far as Armor and Shield go, Sparta was the only city state to actually pay for the soldiers armor. Because Spartans were warriors first. Spartans were armored with bronze breast and back plates, and a helmet of Corinthian style. That last one is apparent right? and a heavy steel shield. And you Have a Spartan soldier.:D
RazielK 10-11-07, 10:15 PM	Why wouldn't the Spartans have the "Throw Anything" feat? The sword was short enough to be thrown, the Spear was definitely thrown and if the soldier had enough momentum or strength the shield could be thrown.
Arriurra 10-12-07, 09:35 AM	Why wouldn't the Spartans have the "Throw Anything" feat? The sword was short enough to be thrown, the Spear was definitely thrown and if the soldier had enough momentum or strength the shield could be thrown. Why would a good soldier get rid of his weapon? The spear was only thrown at targets of opprotunity. Never does a soldier discard his weapon. If they do they were trained poorly. And the Spartans used Phalanx fighting, something that requires all members of the formation to have a shield to have a good defense, if someone is missing their shield it leaves a gap, a weakness.
RazielK 10-12-07, 03:36 PM	1. Spears can be used to be thrown. 2. The Phalanx, while incredibly strong, can break or become a little scattered in the heat of battle. 3. When thrown properly and at the right timing, the weapon can be recovered. The main reason for my above post was to attempt to recreate a Spartan without needing to magically enhance the weapon. My apologies for not having cleared that up earlier.
Ossian 10-13-07, 06:42 AM	What helps, in-game, is to draw a distinction between historical re enactment and fiction. What most of us do, esp. using D&D, is the to stick to the latter. So, if that is the case, I suppose a bit of cinematic enhancement won't unbalance the game. Just like a kung fu master would never even DREAM to do what Jackie Chan does in his movies. Perhaps making the oplites a 5 levels PrC accesible to a 3rd level fighter (the very elite of the greek world), you could come up with something like Feat "Power throw" [generic] Prereqs.: str 13, dex 13, proficient with tossed object (weapon or shield) You can pack a little more punch than others when tossing objects to attack. +1 to damage, range increment +10% "Improved Power Throw" Prereqs.: str 14, dex 14, power throw, BAB +6 Your chances of scoring a crit (i.e. landing a tremendous blow) are higher. +1 to crit threat range and to crit confirmation rolls. Moreover, with the weapon you hold you threaten a space up to 4 meters beyond your normal reach. This allows you to take an AOO with a thrown weapon against a charging enemy. Special: if you want to do this tossing a shield you have to ready it (unstrap it) AND you must already have the "Improved Shield Bash" feat. "Spear Defense Mastery" (this is something I have read on the order of the stick's gaming forum, but I am not sure I am recalling it correctly. I'll check) Prereqs.: proficient with halfspear, weapon focus (halfspear) You can set a spear against a charge as a free action. You can also attack adjacent foes with whirling maneuvers. Sure enough, it takes a high level specialized soldier to get all the feats, but hey, they are fictional spartans. If the real ones owned everyone, can you imagine what could the 3.5 fantasy version do? ;) Ossian
natzero 10-13-07, 11:42 AM	Well in the case of the spartans yes the sword they carried really is just a MW Shortsword Now the spear, according to textbooks and articles ive read, the Spartans carried an 8 ft fire hardened spear with bronze tipping. This was a massive spear, and really from what ive read was rarely thrown until needed. Remember the sword was not their primary weapon, the spear was. And throwing the shield :( no. heh srry but remember the spartan mothers would tell their sons to either come back with their shield or on it. In other words a man that lost his shield was shamed, i imagine if the shield was destroyed there may be better reception but bringing it back was imperative. The spartans were good but remember that when the line broke they werent that invincible as Epominandas (may be misspelled) and the Thebens proved at Luectra (cant remember the date, but was in 380's BC i think). The entire unit had to have shields and preferably spears at all times. I guess if i had to put the gear in dnd terms id say: Spear- MW Spear (why not) Sword- MW shortsword Shield- Large "Steel" Shield (remember in dnd bronze gets minuses) Armor- Breastplate (hard to choose really) (helm,cuirass,gaunts,greaves,shin guards,SANDALS WOOOO) Feats: phalanx fighting endurance idk weapon focus spear? Hard to say really Srry for length, sadly id never seen d20 historical thread before :)
xXOblivionXx 10-14-07, 03:10 PM	Dori. Xiphos Dori = the Greek word for spear, not a different kind of spear. Xiphos = The Greek word for sword, not a different kind of sword. heh srry but remember the spartan mothers would tell their sons to either come back with their shield or on it. In other words a man that lost his shield was shamed, i imagine if the shield was destroyed there may be better reception but bringing it back was imperative. You are correct about what the mothers said, but not on what it meant. In ancient Sparta, it was a terrible shame to retreat/flee from battle and the dead Spartans where carried on their shields. So, in essence what the mothers said was "you return to Sparta either victorious or dead".
JosephKell 10-14-07, 06:24 PM	Greeks used long spears, but not in one hand. The shield had a groove in it to rest the spear haft in. If you watch Troy, look at the Myrmidons. Except ignore the groove on the elbow end. So the left arm supported the shield and the shield supported the spear. You could ALMOST compare the spear use to how most people shoot in pool. Now assuming you are talking about making a character that fights relatively alone (like most D&D games). Don't worry about the whole spear thing. Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes I would just have a few javelins (to open up combat with) and a scimitar (critical hits make up for the 1 less average damage per hit). Or use a Khopesh, if you DM will allow it (Khopesh is an exotic weapon, 1d8, 19-20/x3, I think, or at least it is in DDO). Just don't ask me to pronounce it :D. It is either Co-Pesh or Cop-ish? Cop-pish?
natzero 10-14-07, 09:57 PM	You are correct about what the mothers said, but not on what it meant. In ancient Sparta, it was a terrible shame to retreat/flee from battle and the dead Spartans where carried on their shields. So, in essence what the mothers said was "you return to Sparta either victorious or dead". I am actually aware of this. I assumed that what i said had covered that. I can understand how the follow up could have been misunderstood, yes it meant come back victorious of dead. Now if one was to return without his shield, and alive.... Think about the reaction that would bring. I have yet to see a piece of historical literature that would explain the reaction of the fellow Spartiates, my question is.. Is he knocked down to perioikoi status? slain? banished? enslaved? who knows.
Ossian 10-15-07, 06:24 AM	He would probably be asked to take his own life, but that is just my wild guess. It looked like commanders had this duty, that is, victory or death, and if you flee or are defeated (no matter what the odds were) you go the Council and face severe punishment. Simple and effective the feat choice, but I'd swap Combat Expertise with Spring Attack. They seemed to fight a bit more offensively and CE pays off only at higher levels. It would be odd to allow for an army of 300 6th level soldiers. I'd rather a more human and still elitary one with 2nd and 3rd level fighters, which still means 4 combat related feats. What if the feat choice was Combat Reflex (human bonus feat, plough through approaching enemy units), at 1st level dodge (gosh, in the movie they were NAKED, so much for the historical bronze breastplate!) and mobility (good defense while moving through enemy units, when they too have to provoke AOOs), at 2nd a nice "power attack" just to free the "Cleave" feat (at 3rd level), which looks a lot like a good description of what they did on the battlefield. Going up through the levels, at 4th I'd say "Spring Attack" (that is the "good captain" level) and at 6th (2 feats) "Great Cleave" (Leonidas) and "Improved Shield Bash" (they have tower shield and they bash, but they need not lose their armor bonus while doing so). Leonidas as a legendary fighter, could have used even 1 or 2 levels of "Barbarian" to get the "Rage" and the "Uncanny dodge", and then again a last, 9th level (7th level fighter) to get one feat among "Improved Overrun", "Improved Bull rush" or perhaps "Leadership". I' am actually a bit confused. An article said that if you take them in the right order the feats with prereqs. can be taken at the same level. Is that the same for BAB? Spring attack needs a +4 BAB, which you'd get at 4th level so...hmmm...any clues?. Ossian
Nadaka 10-15-07, 11:43 AM	He would probably be asked to take his own life, but that is just my wild guess. It looked like commanders had this duty, that is, victory or death, and if you flee or are defeated (no matter what the odds were) you go the Council and face severe punishment. Simple and effective the feat choice, but I'd swap Combat Expertise with Spring Attack. They seemed to fight a bit more offensively and CE pays off only at higher levels. It would be odd to allow for an army of 300 6th level soldiers. I'd rather a more human and still elitary one with 2nd and 3rd level fighters, which still means 4 combat related feats. What if the feat choice was Combat Reflex (human bonus feat, plough through approaching enemy units), at 1st level dodge (gosh, in the movie they were NAKED, so much for the historical bronze breastplate!) and mobility (good defense while moving through enemy units, when they too have to provoke AOOs), at 2nd a nice "power attack" just to free the "Cleave" feat (at 3rd level), which looks a lot like a good description of what they did on the battlefield. Going up through the levels, at 4th I'd say "Spring Attack" (that is the "good captain" level) and at 6th (2 feats) "Great Cleave" (Leonidas) and "Improved Shield Bash" (they have tower shield and they bash, but they need not lose their armor bonus while doing so). Leonidas as a legendary fighter, could have used even 1 or 2 levels of "Barbarian" to get the "Rage" and the "Uncanny dodge", and then again a last, 9th level (7th level fighter) to get one feat among "Improved Overrun", "Improved Bull rush" or perhaps "Leadership". I' am actually a bit confused. An article said that if you take them in the right order the feats with prereqs. can be taken at the same level. Is that the same for BAB? Spring attack needs a +4 BAB, which you'd get at 4th level so...hmmm...any clues?. Ossian In D&D you pick the level first, then the choices available at that level (in no particular order) So yes, at the same level you get BAB +4 you can get spring attack. Just like you can take weapon finesse at fighter 1 but not rogue 1.
Geisterkrieger 10-18-07, 09:04 PM	I don't know in which campaign setting I saw the feat 'Pike and Shield' Pike in game terms was similar to Longspear. The feat allows you to use a longspear one handed and a shield in the other.
RazielK 10-18-07, 11:46 PM	I am actually aware of this. I assumed that what i said had covered that. I can understand how the follow up could have been misunderstood, yes it meant come back victorious of dead. Now if one was to return without his shield, and alive.... Think about the reaction that would bring. I have yet to see a piece of historical literature that would explain the reaction of the fellow Spartiates, my question is.. Is he knocked down to perioikoi status? slain? banished? enslaved? who knows. Well it would just be another cost. Sometimes there is nothing you can do in the heat of battle. It would look better than a loss on the battlefield. Spartan military men pay for their weapons and armor.
Holy_Beholder 10-21-07, 02:44 AM	The Spartans would probably use a short sword and a spear, with a heavy shield. Most Greek melee would, then there would be chariots, archers, and Slingers. Athenians would probably use siege weapons(they valued intelligence more than the Spartans, and developed quite a few, although aristotle did a lot of the work personally. Between that and their walls, they were able to hold of the Spartans pretty well when they fought. They would need the phalanx fighting feat too, since it was relied on.