Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BetaSquirrell 01-16-08, 08:34 PM	This idea is split off of another thread. It was The_Mad_Linguist's idea, but I'll flatter myself and say I helped a little by adding Arcane Disciple. Anyway, here are relevant posts. Warning: The following is an extremely marginal attempt at getting spellcasting as a fighter. It's so strained it might explode at any moment. You have been warned. Pick up practiced spellcaster at first level. You have caster level 1. With your feat for being a human, select precocious apprentice. IIRC, it requires CL 1 and a 15 in int or charisma. In either case, you now can *cast* a second level spell. You have CL 3 by third level, so pick up craft wondrous item when you can. It might come in handy. Now, I don't think there's any way to get a higher spell than first level as a fighter. So, once you hit epic, take Improved Spell Capacity three times, which requires "Ability to cast spells of the normal maximum spell level in at least one spellcasting class". You now have a fifth level spell slot (and possibly bonus spells), but only know a single second level spell. To fix that, take spell knowledge, which requires "Ability to cast spells of the maximum normal spell level of an arcane spellcasting class.". You gain two spells up to fifth level. Choose them wisely. Greater Invisiblity seems promising. Nobody will have detect invisibility if they're built with the same rules, so it's virtually uncounterable. This is about where you lost me. How did you get a 1st level spell? And can it be Cure Light Wounds? Practiced Spellcaster gives you a +4 bonus to your caster level, but this bonus can't bring your caster level above your hit dice. The purpose of taking practiced spellcaster is to give you a caster level to make you eligible for precocious apprentice, which requires a caster level of 1 and can only be taken at first level You don't have a first level spell. You have a single second level spell that you need to succeed on a caster level check to cast. Point is, you're able to cast spells at the maximum possible level for the fighter class (which is now a spellcasting class, obviously, since you are a pure fighter who can cast spells. Since fighters normally can't cast spells, and can only obtain spellcasting through precocious apprentice, you're at the maximum), which makes you eligible for the epic feat later on. Of course, your spell list is empty, so you need stuff like Oneiromancy or Arcane Disciple or something to fill it... Wouldn't a Dragonwrought Kobold manage to become a spellcasting fighter even before epic? I hear something like that can be done... Yeah, maybe, but as a kobold lose the bonus feat for being a human, and then you never get P.A, because you need to take two feats at level 1 to pull it off. By the way, what class are you advancing with Practiced Spellcaster? If you advance wizard, don't you fail to fulfill the requirements on the epic feat, since it will look at the wizard class you're miming rather than the fighter class you are? You're advancing fighter. I believe that practiced spellcaster can be applied to any class, but it's spectacularly useless to apply to fighter under normal circumstances. So Precocious Apprentice actually increases the spellcasting ability of your class, not some weird thing like Hidden Talent? I see, and because our Fighter now has a spell list of one second level spell, he qualifies for the epic cheese. Niiiiiiiiiice... Actually, even if Practiced Spellcaster can increase a Fighter's caster level, the Fighter doesn't normally have access to any schools of magic, so no level 2 spell is a valid choice for Precocious Apprentice. Eh, why not just use Practiced Spellcaster: Wizard to get an imaginary CL 4 for wizard, then take Arcane Disciple? IIRC Practiced Spellcaster doesn't have any requirements aside from spellcraft (cc ranks would do it), and Arcane Disciple doesn't have any requirements save CL. Using that we can get nine spells onto the list. Pick a nice domain - perhaps you can even still make the infinite damage loop. Lesse... Able Learner and Practiced Spellcaster from flaws, Arcane Disciple from Human. Precocious Apprentice from level 1, and we should be set to go! Except then you only have one spell slot (level 2), so you can't cast the highest-level spell available. You might be able to use Hexblade and somehow abuse Heighten Spell, but I'm not sure how I'd go about it. Well, yeah, you wouldn't be able to use Improved Spell Capacity. Best I can think of now is to somehow work in an Earth Spell Cheese to ladder your way up. You would have to abuse Sanctum and Earth Spell to get a 4th level spell, then take Extra spell for a Third level spell. Use Sanctum Earth to get a 5th level, and so on until you get a 9th level spell. You would burn almost every feat you have to get a 9th level spell (aside from fighter bonus), but then you could do all sorts of things. (Cough, Gate, Cough) (BTW, in case you can't tell this board's way of optimizing Fighter for 'Single attack damage' is to turn Fighter into Crusader or Wizard) EDIT: Okay, here's how the feat progression might look: 1: Able Learner (shaky), Practiced Spellcaster (weak eyes), Arcane Disciple (Human), Precocious Apprentice (level 1). 3: Earth Sense 6: Heighten Spell 9: Earth Spell 12: Sanctum Spell 15: Extra Spell (3rd) //Might be Extra Slot, not sure 18: Extra Spell (4th) 21: Extra Spell (5th) 24: Extra Spell (6th) 27: Extra Spell (7th) //Note, at this point you can cast a level 9 spell 30: Improved Spell Capacity Telflammar Shadowlord and Bone collector have only three levels of spells! Seems like it would be simple to get the max level spells for that class. I'll keep looking for a class that only goes up to level 2 (since not needing to abuse earth spell is neat.) (http://spelldb.com/showSpell.php?class=158 and http://spelldb.com/showSpell.php?class=164) Hmmm, that frees up all epic slots for Imp. Spell Cap., and we can probably put Epic Spellcasting in there. Able Learner made Spellcraft a class skill (or whatever) at level 1, so no issues there, and if one of the free slots is devoted to Craft Wondrous Item this guy and churn out skill-boosting items--- I think we have a straight Fighter Gish on our hands... And now, let the continued discussion rage!
Senevri 01-16-08, 11:21 PM	Let me work this out... "Precocious Apprentice" makes Fighter a very limited, very stupid casting class, with 0 or - CL. Practiced Spellcaster(wizard or sorcerer) gives you CL 1 at level 1. Arcane Disciple adds a chosen domain's spells to your class list of arcane spells. ( This is actually a completely broken feat, now that I think of it. ) Prereq: Able to cast arcane spells. Precocious Apprentice requires Arcane Caster level 1. Gets you a 2nd level slot and single spell from Arcane disciple list. The rest is Earth Spell/Sanctum Spell/Heighten cheese + Extra Slots. Few issues: You do not actually learn spells from your AD list. you need to use feats to learn them, too. Still, you can heighten your one known 2nd level spell for every level. Runestaffs, maybe? Then again, if you snatch Wizard casting, you can get a spellbook, and learn from scrolls etc. This DOES require that Practiced Spellcaster comes to effect before Precocious Apprentice, on creation. Then again, most people allow fighters to pick power attack and cleave at first level... You have a wizard caster level, but you do not actually have Spellcasting, though. How does that work? Isn't there a chicken-and-egg issue with Arcane Disciple/Precocious Apprentice? I'm not sure if you need AD If you apply Practiced Spellcaster to Fighter... well, it cannot be done, and even if it could, you still wouldn't be Arcane or Divine. It's the Artificier situation, sort of. ... I would still SO allow players to do this, though. It's awesome.
BetaSquirrell 01-17-08, 06:49 AM	Yeah, that's the idea. There are a few things I think I should clear up, though. We take Practiced Spellcaster (Telflammar Shadowlord) first, giving us an ordinary fighter with a CL of 1 for T.S. Then, we take Precocious Apprentice, getting a spell (I'm not sure if Arcane Disciple is needed here), and at level 3 we take Sanctum. Inside our Sanctum, this allows us to cast level 3 spells. Since Level 3 is the highest for T.S., we qualify for the epic feat Improved Spell Capacity. And, just a note, it may be possible to apply Practiced Spellcaster to Fighter (though I'm not relying on it.). You can gain a feat at the same time as its prereqs, and the P.S. + P.A. + Arcane Disciple combo fulfills its own requirements if it can all be taken at one level.
Senevri 01-17-08, 07:46 AM	Oh, just a reminder: It's an epic feat, so it still requires lv21 even if it doesn't state so in prereqs. So you still need Earth Spell + Heighten trick. Pre-epic, that is. Of course, if you do not care for it, it's all okay. But still, getting a Fighter Gish - even at mid-epic - using a pure fighter is kind of neat.
The_Mad_Linguist 01-17-08, 12:08 PM	Oh, just a reminder: It's an epic feat, so it still requires lv21 even if it doesn't state so in prereqs. So you still need Earth Spell + Heighten trick. Pre-epic, that is. Of course, if you do not care for it, it's all okay. But still, getting a Fighter Gish - even at mid-epic - using a pure fighter is kind of neat. Epic feats are dodged with cheesewrought kobold.
Commx 01-17-08, 02:10 PM	I still see a small problem with this. Precocious Apprentice gives you a spell "of a school you have access to", and as far as I know, a Fighter does not have access to any schools of magic. How do we avoid that?
FriendlyFrog 01-17-08, 03:00 PM	If having access to a school only means that you must be able to cast a spell from it, Magical training (PGtF) lets you cast three cantrips per day as a Wizard or Sorcerer of your arcane caster level (at least 1st). This would help making the trick viable if Practiced spellcaster (Fighter) isn't legal, as it gives you a caster level. EDIT: Hmm, I just noticed that Magical training + Precocious spellcaster would let a straight spontaneous caster qualify for Ultimate magus. Not sure if that's of any use, though.
Senevri 01-17-08, 03:10 PM	Telflammar Shadowlords do. This is what Arcane Disciple was for, initially. It gives spell access.
The_Mad_Linguist 01-17-08, 03:15 PM	If having access to a school only means that you must be able to cast a spell from it, Magical training (PGtF) lets you cast three cantrips per day as a Wizard or Sorcerer of your arcane caster level (at least 1st). This would help making the trick viable if Practiced spellcaster (Fighter) isn't legal, as it gives you a caster level. I was looking for something like that, but the only feats I could find gave spell-like abilities instead of spells (which is why I settled on Precocious Apprentice). Very neat.
WombleHunter 01-18-08, 05:18 PM	How are you getting around the fact that, at first level (when you take Able Learner), Spellcraft is not a class skill and so your max ranks is 2 rather than 4?
BetaSquirrell 01-19-08, 09:51 AM	Wait, I thought that was what Able Learner fixed? I thought it make one skill a class skill? (never seen the feat) With Magical Training, however, I don't think we need that. Is there a 'minimum CL 1st' entry in the feat reading?