Strongest in the Core [Archive] - Wizards Community

Strongest in the Core [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
vegetalss4
12-11-07, 09:36 AM i got a challenge for this board.
Make the most powerfull possible charecter using ONLY the 3 core books (phb/dmg/mm) and the srd Here (http://www.d20srd.org/).
the lower level the better. use 25 point buy
so is someone up for the challenge?
Think0028
12-11-07, 10:41 AM ...

Druid 20.

We've had so many vague challenges like this, it's practically become an in-joke. And the response of Druid 20 is the in-joke response. Best? Who is the best? The diplomancer with a diplomacy check of +72 at 20th level, and automatically makes hostiles friendly? The druid who can cast Shapechange, can wildshape, and has a powerful animal companion? The Wizard who can cast Gate and easily get as many wishes as he wants? Seriously, so vague.
Incarnum
12-11-07, 11:07 AM indeed druid 20
CrimsonDeath
12-11-07, 07:17 PM the 2 core books (phb/dmg/mm)

I believe we have a Gully Dwarf on our hands.

Maybe two. But no more than two.
vegetalss4
12-13-07, 04:38 PM ...

Druid 20.

We've had so many vague challenges like this, it's practically become an in-joke. And the response of Druid 20 is the in-joke response. Best? Who is the best? The diplomancer with a diplomacy check of +72 at 20th level, and automatically makes hostiles friendly? The druid who can cast Shapechange, can wildshape, and has a powerful animal companion? The Wizard who can cast Gate and easily get as many wishes as he wants? Seriously, so vague.
i did not know. now i fell stupid:embarrass
how avout we change the rules then?
what about making the challenge about being immortal, or as close as possiple? would that be to vauge to?
The_Mad_Linguist
12-13-07, 05:57 PM i did not know. now i fell stupid:embarrass
how avout we change the rules then?
what about making the challenge about being immortal, or as close as possiple? would that be to vauge to?

Druid 20. Reincarnate yourself whenever you get close to dying of old age.
Think0028
12-13-07, 06:51 PM Not vague, but (relatively) easy.

Warforged, from the Eberron Campaign Setting, are immortal.
Elans, from the Expanded Psionic Handbook, are immortal.
Necropolitans, from Libris Mortis, are immortal. Costs XP to become one, though.
Druid reincarnation also works.
Being an undead through any means works, although most are very high LA.
Hmmm, there should be more... I'll dig around.

OR: Do you mean immortal as "cannot be killed?" If so, that's a tall order. Contingency would save you from the first death, but it would then dissipate. Death Delver gives you 9 extra lifes, but you can't regenerate them. One way would probably involve fast healing and a way to get away fast, but even then a large amount of damage at once would get you, and don't get me started on save or dies.

The most well-known example of this is the Twice-Betrayer of Shar. I don't have a link, but search should find it pretty easily.
CrimsonDeath
12-13-07, 06:58 PM Any spellcaster 11. Craft Wondrous Item. Lich.
vegetalss4
12-14-07, 04:49 AM first of this is core. and the more imortal the better. so while druid reincarnate is ok. it is not really good. combat over age imortal.
lich is a good idea but i would like to see a build, and how do you gaurd your pylyctary?(and i know i spelled that wrong)
CrimsonDeath
12-14-07, 02:18 PM (never mind)
FriendlyFrog
12-17-07, 07:50 AM Any spellcaster 11. Craft Wondrous Item. Lich.
Ghost works, too, Rejuvenation rocks. Though becoming a Lich is a lot easier.
Callix
12-17-07, 05:29 PM first of this is core. and the more imortal the better. so while druid reincarnate is ok. it is not really good. combat over age imortal.
lich is a good idea but i would like to see a build, and how do you gaurd your pylyctary?(and i know i spelled that wrong)

Take one (1) phylactery. Attach one (1) item of continuous Sculpted Antimagic Field, excluding a one-foot sphere around the object, one (1) item of continouous Dimension Lock, one (1) Forbiddance spell, and one (1) Mirage Arcana of a wall augmented by one (1) casting of Permanency. Place this within one (1) trap-filled lair of your choice. Add horrible monsters and undead minions to taste. Serve.

That's just a basic version. Do you want to try the Deluxe?
The_Mad_Linguist
12-17-07, 06:56 PM Take one (1) phylactery. Attach one (1) item of continuous Sculpted Antimagic Field, excluding a one-foot sphere around the object, one (1) item of continouous Dimension Lock, one (1) Forbiddance spell, and one (1) Mirage Arcana of a wall augmented by one (1) casting of Permanency. Place this within one (1) trap-filled lair of your choice. Add horrible monsters and undead minions to taste. Serve.

That's just a basic version. Do you want to try the Deluxe?

Is that the one where you augment it with (1) casting of planar binding for (20) cubic feet of black lotus extract
vegetalss4
12-19-07, 03:51 AM Take one (1) phylactery. Attach one (1) item of continuous Sculpted Antimagic Field, excluding a one-foot sphere around the object, one (1) item of continouous Dimension Lock, one (1) Forbiddance spell, and one (1) Mirage Arcana of a wall augmented by one (1) casting of Permanency. Place this within one (1) trap-filled lair of your choice. Add horrible monsters and undead minions to taste. Serve.

That's just a basic version. Do you want to try the Deluxe?
how do you sculp an antimagic field in core?:)
EDIT: oh and yes i would like the deluxe version (and an explanation of how that works please)
CrimsonDeath
12-19-07, 08:56 PM how do you sculp an antimagic field in core?:)
EDIT: oh and yes i would like the deluxe version (and an explanation of how that works please)

Be an Archmage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/archmage.htm), although it would have to be a 5' cube around the phylactery.
Hamsterlord
12-20-07, 10:12 PM Hell, with Core + SRD you can pretty much get pun-pun (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=904652). It uses the Complete books in the main descriptions, but also tells how to do it with just SRD and Core.
FriendlyFrog
12-21-07, 06:03 AM Hell, with Core + SRD you can pretty much get pun-pun (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=904652). It uses the Complete books in the main descriptions, but also tells how to do it with just SRD and Core.
Umm, no. Pun-Pun is based around the Manipulate form ability of the Sarrukh, which is from Serpent kingdoms. There's no Pun-Pun without that book.
Hamsterlord
12-21-07, 04:35 PM Umm, no. Pun-Pun is based around the Manipulate form ability of the Sarrukh, which is from Serpent kingdoms. There's no Pun-Pun without that book.

Yes, that's why I said "pretty much". It still can get any printed ability, limitless divinity, arbitrarily high stats, and everything else, that's most of what Pun-Pun is anyways, just not creation of abilities from thin air.
CrimsonDeath
12-22-07, 12:42 AM Yes, that's why I said "pretty much". It still can get any printed ability, limitless divinity, arbitrarily high stats, and everything else, that's most of what Pun-Pun is anyways, just not creation of abilities from thin air.

How?

I don't know of a way to gain extra racial traits in Core.

I don't know of a way to gain Divine Rank in Core (since it doesn't even exist in Core).

I don't know of a way to gain arbitrarily high HD in Core.

And I don't know of a way to gain arbirarily high ability scores in Core, since Inherent bonuses are capped at +5.
Think0028
12-23-07, 01:55 AM How?

I don't know of a way to gain extra racial traits in Core.

I don't know of a way to gain Divine Rank in Core (since it doesn't even exist in Core).

I don't know of a way to gain arbitrarily high HD in Core.

And I don't know of a way to gain arbirarily high ability scores in Core, since Inherent bonuses are capped at +5.

Unless Pun-Pun uses his "Make **** Up" aspect of Manipulate Form. Don't want to rely on it, but it still exists.
vegetalss4
12-25-07, 06:24 AM Unless Pun-Pun uses his "Make **** Up" aspect of Manipulate Form. Don't want to rely on it, but it still exists.

exept of course that the "Make **** Up" aspect of Manipulate Form does not exist in core, like the rest of manipulate form, wich is from serpent kindoms:D
BetaSquirrell
12-26-07, 12:27 PM With a roar of effort, Pun-pun changes your first post to include Serpent Kingdoms!

(No, don't ask me how he put IHS in core, because the answer will be IHS.)

(It's a joke, by the way)
vegetalss4
12-27-07, 02:32 PM whats IHS?
larry_the_titan
12-27-07, 03:50 PM whats IHS?

I think he means Iron Heart Surge (I think I got the name right). It’s in Tome of Battle. Its description is “with a great force of effort you overcome all obstacles” basically. Don’t have my books on me to check. But in short Pun Pun IHSs both IHS and Manipulate form in to the Players hand book or somewhere in Core. BetaSquirrell is not using logic so you can't win the arguement. Your best bet is to ignore him and continue the thread.
CrimsonDeath
12-27-07, 08:17 PM I think he means Iron Heart Surge (I think I got the name right). It’s in Tome of Battle. Its description is “with a great force of effort you overcome all obstacles” basically. Don’t have my books on me to check. But in short Pun Pun IHSs both IHS and Manipulate form in to the Players hand book or somewhere in Core. BetaSquirrell is not using logic so you can't win the arguement. Your best bet is to ignore him and continue the thread.

It allows you to eliminate one spell or condition currently affecting you that has a duration of one or more rounds. However, the way martial maneuvers work, it's impossible to remove some spells or conditions you probably should be able to (Hold Person), but you can remove some spells or conditions you probably shouldn't be able to (Incendiary Cloud). This absurdity has led to Iron Heart Surge becoming something of a joke on the CharOp board.

I don't know where the "roar of effort" came from, but it's hilarious.
Hamsterlord
12-28-07, 02:00 AM How?

I don't know of a way to gain extra racial traits in Core.

I don't know of a way to gain Divine Rank in Core (since it doesn't even exist in Core).

I don't know of a way to gain arbitrarily high HD in Core.

And I don't know of a way to gain arbirarily high ability scores in Core, since Inherent bonuses are capped at +5.

First of all, OP includes SRD as well. Secondly, read the thread I posted. Third, a really easy way to get arbitrarily high HD is the awaken trick, also shambler + lightning works too.
vegetalss4
12-31-07, 07:12 PM First of all, OP includes SRD as well. Secondly, read the thread I posted. Third, a really easy way to get arbitrarily high HD is the awaken trick, also shambler + lightning works too.

wich is all well and good. but without the manipulate form ability how does that get us imortality better than the current lich thing:) (that by the way needs a good explanation)
Senevri
01-01-08, 09:56 AM Immortality? Pfft, contingent Reincarnate three days after death. - chop off a lock of your hair and deposit it somewhere safe.

Limited wish to duplicate Reinc.
vegetalss4
01-01-08, 02:40 PM Immortality? Pfft, contingent Reincarnate three days after death. - chop off a lock of your hair and deposit it somewhere safe.

Limited wish to duplicate Reinc.

and lose levels real fast:D
and as already stated can't be killed > dont die of old age.
so lich hide sould hidey thing is still best
Senevri
01-01-08, 04:34 PM and lose levels real fast:D
Only if you intend to die lots. You can have a whole bunch of shields up, if you want. In fact, if you're a primary caster and use majority of your spells to buff up, and have an AMF-protecting tactic, you're very secure... but not very party-friendly. In fact, simple plane shift + astral projection + contingency vs. Silver Swords is already plenty secure.

and as already stated can't be killed > dont die of old age.
so lich hide sould hidey thing is still best
But then you're a Lich. Ew.
CrimsonDeath
01-01-08, 06:16 PM First of all, OP includes SRD as well. Secondly, read the thread I posted. Third, a really easy way to get arbitrarily high HD is the awaken trick, also shambler + lightning works too.
I'm not toally convinced your Fusion trick really works, but better optimizers than I have argued that point, so I'll set it aside for now. I will point out that manifesting Fusion repeatedly burns a whole lot of XP, and it's not clear where the XP comes from when a Fused being burns it. And with a duration of 1 min/level, you will need to manifest it quite a few times to get your ML high enough for it to last even a few hours at a time, and it's unclear what happens when people start falling out of it.

Second, Awaken only works on Animals and Plants, while your Fusion trick only works on Aberrations.

Third, the Shambling Mound trick only gives you high Constitution, not HD.
awaken_D_M_golem
01-04-08, 05:09 PM Infinite Wishes via Candle and Noble Djinn / Efreet , check.
Infinite Time via nested Time Stops , check.
Diplomacy check DC of 150+ , "Hey Deity, let's chat" , check.
Proxy-hood available via SRD , check.
Epic Spells giving some large portion of Pun-puns power , check.

I'm not sure whether a Semi-Nut pun situation can be done with Diplo/Proxy, instead of Ice Assassin.

What are the holes here?
The_Mad_Linguist
01-04-08, 11:17 PM Infinite Wishes via Candle and Noble Djinn / Efreet , check.
Infinite Time via nested Time Stops , check.
Diplomacy check DC of 150+ , "Hey Deity, let's chat" , check.
Proxy-hood available via SRD , check.
Epic Spells giving some large portion of Pun-puns power , check.

I'm not sure whether a Semi-Nut pun situation can be done with Diplo/Proxy, instead of Ice Assassin.

What are the holes here?

How about having the deity create an Aleax* of another deity, and dismiss it after it grants you proxy levels. After all, what better way to kill the other gods than to pump up a single powerful uber-divine creature?

* Unfortunately, on second inspection, this requires BoED.
awaken_D_M_golem
01-05-08, 03:24 PM Heh - a Swiss Cheese version of Pun-pun.

How high can Core/SRD get Diplomacy checks on a consistent basis?

Charisma of 42
Max Ranks
Item Familiar via SRD
Custom Items of +30/+30/+30 to Diplo

If that doesn't do it, get a 4th +30 item.

Do multiple Proxy DvR of 1's stack ?
Taiia is DvR 20, find her, control her.

ALMOST.
awaken_D_M_golem
01-05-08, 03:25 PM ..
vegetalss4
01-06-08, 12:09 PM and how does that make us immortal?:)
BetaSquirrell
01-06-08, 12:43 PM Um...

If you've got a deity or two fanatic towards you, I think you should be able to think of something... And doesn't having a DvR make you immortal anyway?
awaken_D_M_golem
01-06-08, 02:18 PM Immortal - yep, DvR gives you that, and Infinite Wishes should let you do T_G's dirty trick #5.

Savage Species ritual will let anything become an animal or plant, so now Awaken to infinite Charisma, feats, HD, skills.
Wish should let you do that, because some of the more powerful SS rituals use Wish.

Well, heck, DvR 1 opens SDA Alter Reality up, if CHA is over 29.
So that's all spells and powers.
CrimsonDeath
01-09-08, 04:18 AM And doesn't having a DvR make you immortal anyway?

Yup. Even DvR 0 makes you immortal.
vegetalss4
01-09-08, 01:43 PM savage species is not part of this thread

i would like if the plans werent DM dependant (which does not mean that DM fiat shot them down, but that we should be able to get any other creatureres we need by means of feat's or spells or other clever ways) oh and by the way Taiia is niether in the srd or core
BetaSquirrell
01-09-08, 09:02 PM What do you mean, DM dependent? A_DM_G's method doesn't require a DM. Just go crafter Cleric for one Candle of Invocation and the rest snowballs. As for Taiia, I don't think that matters. We don't need Taiia, we can use Pelor as our butler.

(Diplo +120 items + 16 Cha + 11 ranks [assuming cross-class] + <Arbitrary> Item Familiar = enough.)

We have infinite DvR by one ruling, DvR 1 by another, immortality either way.

What we're trying to say is:

We have immortality in Core. We have infinite wishes in Core. We have diplomanced the Gods in Core. What more do you want? Fries?

This thread's purpose has been completed.
vegetalss4
01-12-08, 03:53 PM infinitive wishes is cool.
imortaliti is also cool.
diplomanced gods not cool, as we have no way of getting said gods, thats what i meant by DM dependant
Senevri
01-12-08, 05:12 PM diplomanced gods not cool, as we have no way of getting said gods, thats what i meant by DM dependant
Actually...
1. If there's no gods in the world, that's a DM houserule
2. You have the knowledge ranks to know where in the planes they reside.
3. Gate.
Sure, you won't get DIRECTLY to their presence, but you can just diplomancy all those who you encounter, and you'll eventually get to their presence.

If a DM is _stopping_ you, that's a DM fiat.
The_Mad_Linguist
01-12-08, 10:25 PM Ridiculously high perform checks can attract extraplanar creatures.
CrimsonDeath
01-12-08, 11:17 PM Ridiculously high perform checks can attract extraplanar creatures.

And replace Diplomacy checks.
vegetalss4
01-13-08, 07:45 AM ok ok i surender.
i still dont think that we got gods, but lich imortallity is good enough for me
Tshern
01-14-08, 10:44 AM Your opinion is hardly of any use, as it is possibly to attract gods and so forth. You might even go knocking on their door.
awaken_D_M_golem
01-14-08, 05:30 PM Find a Cleric of X.
Diplo him/her/"it" to give their Greater Deity a call via a Divination spell, or even a Miracle.
Deity responds.
Now deity should be contact-able.
Maybe via Fusion.

No Taiia. OK, how about any other DvR 19 deity. And all of them.

I big difference from Pun, to this Swiss Cheese version, is (su) is the best that can be done, on many of the spells.
Wish/Miracle can duplicate equivalent effects, but that's just iffy.
An 8th level spell outside of Core, might be a 9th level spell, in terms of equivalent effects.

I mentioned Savage Species, because a couple of the rituals require Wish.
And they're more powerful, than the acquire Racial X ritual, which doesn't require Wish.
But that's the thing - What can Wish do? What can Miracle do? What can Alter Reality do?

Overdeity - can a Core Swiss Cheeser acquire those "abilities" ???
Who knows.
Infinite Followers via Epic Leadership and Druid Awaken, doesn't automatically give one DvR 20.
NiteCyper
01-27-08, 01:35 AM I like A_DM_G's formatting. Although on the Saint Valentine's Day Massacre thread, it confused me.

Erm... what's an Item Familiar? I'm lazy, you don't have to respond.
CrimsonDeath
01-27-08, 02:37 AM It's from Unearthed Arcana (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm), I believe.
NiteCyper
01-27-08, 03:52 AM Oh my god. They really went overboard with the Item Familiar system. Dear God.

Factotum = 8 SPL + 4 from INT. 14 * 4 = 56 + 4. Max CHA as well. Get a race with +2 CHA, +2 INT. +4 to Diplomacy and 4 ranks. Invest the rest of your skill points in your Item Familiar.

Diplomacy = 4 + 4 + 1. Level 2 = augh, forget it. Could this cause early Diplomancy?
NiteCyper
01-27-08, 03:58 AM I find it VERY dumb that if you try to use the item, they could beat you in an ego contest and technically 'possess' you. What a load of crap. That's the big(gest) let down for me.
BetaSquirrell
01-28-08, 07:10 PM There's a whole thread on this.

I think the current way to abuse it is to have your cohorts/party members just pass the item around and accumulate a ton of skill ranks, then early entry into a nice PrC.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
vegetalss4 12-11-07, 09:36 AM	i got a challenge for this board. Make the most powerfull possible charecter using ONLY the 3 core books (phb/dmg/mm) and the srd Here (http://www.d20srd.org/). the lower level the better. use 25 point buy so is someone up for the challenge?
Think0028 12-11-07, 10:41 AM	... Druid 20. We've had so many vague challenges like this, it's practically become an in-joke. And the response of Druid 20 is the in-joke response. Best? Who is the best? The diplomancer with a diplomacy check of +72 at 20th level, and automatically makes hostiles friendly? The druid who can cast Shapechange, can wildshape, and has a powerful animal companion? The Wizard who can cast Gate and easily get as many wishes as he wants? Seriously, so vague.
Incarnum 12-11-07, 11:07 AM	indeed druid 20
CrimsonDeath 12-11-07, 07:17 PM	the 2 core books (phb/dmg/mm) I believe we have a Gully Dwarf on our hands. Maybe two. But no more than two.
vegetalss4 12-13-07, 04:38 PM	... Druid 20. We've had so many vague challenges like this, it's practically become an in-joke. And the response of Druid 20 is the in-joke response. Best? Who is the best? The diplomancer with a diplomacy check of +72 at 20th level, and automatically makes hostiles friendly? The druid who can cast Shapechange, can wildshape, and has a powerful animal companion? The Wizard who can cast Gate and easily get as many wishes as he wants? Seriously, so vague. i did not know. now i fell stupid:embarrass how avout we change the rules then? what about making the challenge about being immortal, or as close as possiple? would that be to vauge to?
The_Mad_Linguist 12-13-07, 05:57 PM	i did not know. now i fell stupid:embarrass how avout we change the rules then? what about making the challenge about being immortal, or as close as possiple? would that be to vauge to? Druid 20. Reincarnate yourself whenever you get close to dying of old age.
Think0028 12-13-07, 06:51 PM	Not vague, but (relatively) easy. Warforged, from the Eberron Campaign Setting, are immortal. Elans, from the Expanded Psionic Handbook, are immortal. Necropolitans, from Libris Mortis, are immortal. Costs XP to become one, though. Druid reincarnation also works. Being an undead through any means works, although most are very high LA. Hmmm, there should be more... I'll dig around. OR: Do you mean immortal as "cannot be killed?" If so, that's a tall order. Contingency would save you from the first death, but it would then dissipate. Death Delver gives you 9 extra lifes, but you can't regenerate them. One way would probably involve fast healing and a way to get away fast, but even then a large amount of damage at once would get you, and don't get me started on save or dies. The most well-known example of this is the Twice-Betrayer of Shar. I don't have a link, but search should find it pretty easily.
CrimsonDeath 12-13-07, 06:58 PM	Any spellcaster 11. Craft Wondrous Item. Lich.
vegetalss4 12-14-07, 04:49 AM	first of this is core. and the more imortal the better. so while druid reincarnate is ok. it is not really good. combat over age imortal. lich is a good idea but i would like to see a build, and how do you gaurd your pylyctary?(and i know i spelled that wrong)
CrimsonDeath 12-14-07, 02:18 PM	(never mind)
FriendlyFrog 12-17-07, 07:50 AM	Any spellcaster 11. Craft Wondrous Item. Lich. Ghost works, too, Rejuvenation rocks. Though becoming a Lich is a lot easier.
Callix 12-17-07, 05:29 PM	first of this is core. and the more imortal the better. so while druid reincarnate is ok. it is not really good. combat over age imortal. lich is a good idea but i would like to see a build, and how do you gaurd your pylyctary?(and i know i spelled that wrong) Take one (1) phylactery. Attach one (1) item of continuous Sculpted Antimagic Field, excluding a one-foot sphere around the object, one (1) item of continouous Dimension Lock, one (1) Forbiddance spell, and one (1) Mirage Arcana of a wall augmented by one (1) casting of Permanency. Place this within one (1) trap-filled lair of your choice. Add horrible monsters and undead minions to taste. Serve. That's just a basic version. Do you want to try the Deluxe?
The_Mad_Linguist 12-17-07, 06:56 PM	Take one (1) phylactery. Attach one (1) item of continuous Sculpted Antimagic Field, excluding a one-foot sphere around the object, one (1) item of continouous Dimension Lock, one (1) Forbiddance spell, and one (1) Mirage Arcana of a wall augmented by one (1) casting of Permanency. Place this within one (1) trap-filled lair of your choice. Add horrible monsters and undead minions to taste. Serve. That's just a basic version. Do you want to try the Deluxe? Is that the one where you augment it with (1) casting of planar binding for (20) cubic feet of black lotus extract
vegetalss4 12-19-07, 03:51 AM	Take one (1) phylactery. Attach one (1) item of continuous Sculpted Antimagic Field, excluding a one-foot sphere around the object, one (1) item of continouous Dimension Lock, one (1) Forbiddance spell, and one (1) Mirage Arcana of a wall augmented by one (1) casting of Permanency. Place this within one (1) trap-filled lair of your choice. Add horrible monsters and undead minions to taste. Serve. That's just a basic version. Do you want to try the Deluxe? how do you sculp an antimagic field in core?:) EDIT: oh and yes i would like the deluxe version (and an explanation of how that works please)
CrimsonDeath 12-19-07, 08:56 PM	how do you sculp an antimagic field in core?:) EDIT: oh and yes i would like the deluxe version (and an explanation of how that works please) Be an Archmage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/archmage.htm), although it would have to be a 5' cube around the phylactery.
Hamsterlord 12-20-07, 10:12 PM	Hell, with Core + SRD you can pretty much get pun-pun (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=904652). It uses the Complete books in the main descriptions, but also tells how to do it with just SRD and Core.
FriendlyFrog 12-21-07, 06:03 AM	Hell, with Core + SRD you can pretty much get pun-pun (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=904652). It uses the Complete books in the main descriptions, but also tells how to do it with just SRD and Core. Umm, no. Pun-Pun is based around the Manipulate form ability of the Sarrukh, which is from Serpent kingdoms. There's no Pun-Pun without that book.
Hamsterlord 12-21-07, 04:35 PM	Umm, no. Pun-Pun is based around the Manipulate form ability of the Sarrukh, which is from Serpent kingdoms. There's no Pun-Pun without that book. Yes, that's why I said "pretty much". It still can get any printed ability, limitless divinity, arbitrarily high stats, and everything else, that's most of what Pun-Pun is anyways, just not creation of abilities from thin air.
CrimsonDeath 12-22-07, 12:42 AM	Yes, that's why I said "pretty much". It still can get any printed ability, limitless divinity, arbitrarily high stats, and everything else, that's most of what Pun-Pun is anyways, just not creation of abilities from thin air. How? I don't know of a way to gain extra racial traits in Core. I don't know of a way to gain Divine Rank in Core (since it doesn't even exist in Core). I don't know of a way to gain arbitrarily high HD in Core. And I don't know of a way to gain arbirarily high ability scores in Core, since Inherent bonuses are capped at +5.
Think0028 12-23-07, 01:55 AM	How? I don't know of a way to gain extra racial traits in Core. I don't know of a way to gain Divine Rank in Core (since it doesn't even exist in Core). I don't know of a way to gain arbitrarily high HD in Core. And I don't know of a way to gain arbirarily high ability scores in Core, since Inherent bonuses are capped at +5. Unless Pun-Pun uses his "Make **** Up" aspect of Manipulate Form. Don't want to rely on it, but it still exists.
vegetalss4 12-25-07, 06:24 AM	Unless Pun-Pun uses his "Make ** Up" aspect of Manipulate Form. Don't want to rely on it, but it still exists. exept of course that the "Make ** Up" aspect of Manipulate Form does not exist in core, like the rest of manipulate form, wich is from serpent kindoms:D
BetaSquirrell 12-26-07, 12:27 PM	With a roar of effort, Pun-pun changes your first post to include Serpent Kingdoms! (No, don't ask me how he put IHS in core, because the answer will be IHS.) (It's a joke, by the way)
vegetalss4 12-27-07, 02:32 PM	whats IHS?
larry_the_titan 12-27-07, 03:50 PM	whats IHS? I think he means Iron Heart Surge (I think I got the name right). It’s in Tome of Battle. Its description is “with a great force of effort you overcome all obstacles” basically. Don’t have my books on me to check. But in short Pun Pun IHSs both IHS and Manipulate form in to the Players hand book or somewhere in Core. BetaSquirrell is not using logic so you can't win the arguement. Your best bet is to ignore him and continue the thread.
CrimsonDeath 12-27-07, 08:17 PM	I think he means Iron Heart Surge (I think I got the name right). It’s in Tome of Battle. Its description is “with a great force of effort you overcome all obstacles” basically. Don’t have my books on me to check. But in short Pun Pun IHSs both IHS and Manipulate form in to the Players hand book or somewhere in Core. BetaSquirrell is not using logic so you can't win the arguement. Your best bet is to ignore him and continue the thread. It allows you to eliminate one spell or condition currently affecting you that has a duration of one or more rounds. However, the way martial maneuvers work, it's impossible to remove some spells or conditions you probably should be able to (Hold Person), but you can remove some spells or conditions you probably shouldn't be able to (Incendiary Cloud). This absurdity has led to Iron Heart Surge becoming something of a joke on the CharOp board. I don't know where the "roar of effort" came from, but it's hilarious.
Hamsterlord 12-28-07, 02:00 AM	How? I don't know of a way to gain extra racial traits in Core. I don't know of a way to gain Divine Rank in Core (since it doesn't even exist in Core). I don't know of a way to gain arbitrarily high HD in Core. And I don't know of a way to gain arbirarily high ability scores in Core, since Inherent bonuses are capped at +5. First of all, OP includes SRD as well. Secondly, read the thread I posted. Third, a really easy way to get arbitrarily high HD is the awaken trick, also shambler + lightning works too.
vegetalss4 12-31-07, 07:12 PM	First of all, OP includes SRD as well. Secondly, read the thread I posted. Third, a really easy way to get arbitrarily high HD is the awaken trick, also shambler + lightning works too. wich is all well and good. but without the manipulate form ability how does that get us imortality better than the current lich thing:) (that by the way needs a good explanation)
Senevri 01-01-08, 09:56 AM	Immortality? Pfft, contingent Reincarnate three days after death. - chop off a lock of your hair and deposit it somewhere safe. Limited wish to duplicate Reinc.
vegetalss4 01-01-08, 02:40 PM	Immortality? Pfft, contingent Reincarnate three days after death. - chop off a lock of your hair and deposit it somewhere safe. Limited wish to duplicate Reinc. and lose levels real fast:D and as already stated can't be killed > dont die of old age. so lich hide sould hidey thing is still best
Senevri 01-01-08, 04:34 PM	and lose levels real fast:D Only if you intend to die lots. You can have a whole bunch of shields up, if you want. In fact, if you're a primary caster and use majority of your spells to buff up, and have an AMF-protecting tactic, you're very secure... but not very party-friendly. In fact, simple plane shift + astral projection + contingency vs. Silver Swords is already plenty secure. and as already stated can't be killed > dont die of old age. so lich hide sould hidey thing is still best But then you're a Lich. Ew.
CrimsonDeath 01-01-08, 06:16 PM	First of all, OP includes SRD as well. Secondly, read the thread I posted. Third, a really easy way to get arbitrarily high HD is the awaken trick, also shambler + lightning works too. I'm not toally convinced your Fusion trick really works, but better optimizers than I have argued that point, so I'll set it aside for now. I will point out that manifesting Fusion repeatedly burns a whole lot of XP, and it's not clear where the XP comes from when a Fused being burns it. And with a duration of 1 min/level, you will need to manifest it quite a few times to get your ML high enough for it to last even a few hours at a time, and it's unclear what happens when people start falling out of it. Second, Awaken only works on Animals and Plants, while your Fusion trick only works on Aberrations. Third, the Shambling Mound trick only gives you high Constitution, not HD.
awaken_D_M_golem 01-04-08, 05:09 PM	Infinite Wishes via Candle and Noble Djinn / Efreet , check. Infinite Time via nested Time Stops , check. Diplomacy check DC of 150+ , "Hey Deity, let's chat" , check. Proxy-hood available via SRD , check. Epic Spells giving some large portion of Pun-puns power , check. I'm not sure whether a Semi-Nut pun situation can be done with Diplo/Proxy, instead of Ice Assassin. What are the holes here?
The_Mad_Linguist 01-04-08, 11:17 PM	Infinite Wishes via Candle and Noble Djinn / Efreet , check. Infinite Time via nested Time Stops , check. Diplomacy check DC of 150+ , "Hey Deity, let's chat" , check. Proxy-hood available via SRD , check. Epic Spells giving some large portion of Pun-puns power , check. I'm not sure whether a Semi-Nut pun situation can be done with Diplo/Proxy, instead of Ice Assassin. What are the holes here? How about having the deity create an Aleax* of another deity, and dismiss it after it grants you proxy levels. After all, what better way to kill the other gods than to pump up a single powerful uber-divine creature? * Unfortunately, on second inspection, this requires BoED.
awaken_D_M_golem 01-05-08, 03:24 PM	Heh - a Swiss Cheese version of Pun-pun. How high can Core/SRD get Diplomacy checks on a consistent basis? Charisma of 42 Max Ranks Item Familiar via SRD Custom Items of +30/+30/+30 to Diplo If that doesn't do it, get a 4th +30 item. Do multiple Proxy DvR of 1's stack ? Taiia is DvR 20, find her, control her. ALMOST.
awaken_D_M_golem 01-05-08, 03:25 PM	..
vegetalss4 01-06-08, 12:09 PM	and how does that make us immortal?:)
BetaSquirrell 01-06-08, 12:43 PM	Um... If you've got a deity or two fanatic towards you, I think you should be able to think of something... And doesn't having a DvR make you immortal anyway?
awaken_D_M_golem 01-06-08, 02:18 PM	Immortal - yep, DvR gives you that, and Infinite Wishes should let you do T_G's dirty trick #5. Savage Species ritual will let anything become an animal or plant, so now Awaken to infinite Charisma, feats, HD, skills. Wish should let you do that, because some of the more powerful SS rituals use Wish. Well, heck, DvR 1 opens SDA Alter Reality up, if CHA is over 29. So that's all spells and powers.
CrimsonDeath 01-09-08, 04:18 AM	And doesn't having a DvR make you immortal anyway? Yup. Even DvR 0 makes you immortal.
vegetalss4 01-09-08, 01:43 PM	savage species is not part of this thread i would like if the plans werent DM dependant (which does not mean that DM fiat shot them down, but that we should be able to get any other creatureres we need by means of feat's or spells or other clever ways) oh and by the way Taiia is niether in the srd or core
BetaSquirrell 01-09-08, 09:02 PM	What do you mean, DM dependent? A_DM_G's method doesn't require a DM. Just go crafter Cleric for one Candle of Invocation and the rest snowballs. As for Taiia, I don't think that matters. We don't need Taiia, we can use Pelor as our butler. (Diplo +120 items + 16 Cha + 11 ranks [assuming cross-class] + <Arbitrary> Item Familiar = enough.) We have infinite DvR by one ruling, DvR 1 by another, immortality either way. What we're trying to say is: We have immortality in Core. We have infinite wishes in Core. We have diplomanced the Gods in Core. What more do you want? Fries? This thread's purpose has been completed.
vegetalss4 01-12-08, 03:53 PM	infinitive wishes is cool. imortaliti is also cool. diplomanced gods not cool, as we have no way of getting said gods, thats what i meant by DM dependant
Senevri 01-12-08, 05:12 PM	diplomanced gods not cool, as we have no way of getting said gods, thats what i meant by DM dependant Actually... 1. If there's no gods in the world, that's a DM houserule 2. You have the knowledge ranks to know where in the planes they reside. 3. Gate. Sure, you won't get DIRECTLY to their presence, but you can just diplomancy all those who you encounter, and you'll eventually get to their presence. If a DM is _stopping_ you, that's a DM fiat.
The_Mad_Linguist 01-12-08, 10:25 PM	Ridiculously high perform checks can attract extraplanar creatures.
CrimsonDeath 01-12-08, 11:17 PM	Ridiculously high perform checks can attract extraplanar creatures. And replace Diplomacy checks.
vegetalss4 01-13-08, 07:45 AM	ok ok i surender. i still dont think that we got gods, but lich imortallity is good enough for me
Tshern 01-14-08, 10:44 AM	Your opinion is hardly of any use, as it is possibly to attract gods and so forth. You might even go knocking on their door.
awaken_D_M_golem 01-14-08, 05:30 PM	Find a Cleric of X. Diplo him/her/"it" to give their Greater Deity a call via a Divination spell, or even a Miracle. Deity responds. Now deity should be contact-able. Maybe via Fusion. No Taiia. OK, how about any other DvR 19 deity. And all of them. I big difference from Pun, to this Swiss Cheese version, is (su) is the best that can be done, on many of the spells. Wish/Miracle can duplicate equivalent effects, but that's just iffy. An 8th level spell outside of Core, might be a 9th level spell, in terms of equivalent effects. I mentioned Savage Species, because a couple of the rituals require Wish. And they're more powerful, than the acquire Racial X ritual, which doesn't require Wish. But that's the thing - What can Wish do? What can Miracle do? What can Alter Reality do? Overdeity - can a Core Swiss Cheeser acquire those "abilities" ??? Who knows. Infinite Followers via Epic Leadership and Druid Awaken, doesn't automatically give one DvR 20.
NiteCyper 01-27-08, 01:35 AM	I like A_DM_G's formatting. Although on the Saint Valentine's Day Massacre thread, it confused me. Erm... what's an Item Familiar? I'm lazy, you don't have to respond.
CrimsonDeath 01-27-08, 02:37 AM	It's from Unearthed Arcana (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm), I believe.
NiteCyper 01-27-08, 03:52 AM	Oh my god. They really went overboard with the Item Familiar system. Dear God. Factotum = 8 SPL + 4 from INT. 14 * 4 = 56 + 4. Max CHA as well. Get a race with +2 CHA, +2 INT. +4 to Diplomacy and 4 ranks. Invest the rest of your skill points in your Item Familiar. Diplomacy = 4 + 4 + 1. Level 2 = augh, forget it. Could this cause early Diplomancy?
NiteCyper 01-27-08, 03:58 AM	I find it VERY dumb that if you try to use the item, they could beat you in an ego contest and technically 'possess' you. What a load of crap. That's the big(gest) let down for me.
BetaSquirrell 01-28-08, 07:10 PM	There's a whole thread on this. I think the current way to abuse it is to have your cohorts/party members just pass the item around and accumulate a ton of skill ranks, then early entry into a nice PrC.