Technicalities... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Technicalities... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Belial666
02-18-08, 04:22 PM Manipulate Form:
At will, a sarrukh can modify the form of any Scaled One native to Toril, except for aquatic and undead creatures. With a successful touch attack, it can cause one alteration of its choice in the target creature's body. The target falls unconcious for 2d4 rounds due to the shock of changing form. A successful DC 22 Fortitude dave negates both the change and the unconciousness. Sarrukh are immune to this effect.
A sarrukh may use this ability to change a minor aspect of the target creature, such as the shape of its head or the color of its scales. It may also choose to make a much more significant alteration, such as converting limbs into tentacles, changing the overall body shape (snake to humanoid, for example), or adding or removing an appendage. Any ability score may be decreased to a minimum of 1 or increased to a maximum equal to the sarrukh's corresponding score. A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it.
The change bestowed takes effect immediately and is permanant. Furthermore, the alterations are automatically passed on to all the creature's offspring when it breeds with another of its unmodified kind.

Technically, since someone changed into a Sarrukh is not actually Sarrukh (he only gets some of their abilities) and the ability itself technically says that a sarrukh may use it in the above ways, doesn't it mean that someone who does get that ability cannot use it?
If a theoretical optimiser can use the wording of an ability to make Pun Pun, can't the theoretical DM use the wording to technically outlaw Pun Pun?
Fwib
02-18-08, 05:40 PM Manipulate Form:

Technically, since someone changed into a Sarrukh is not actually Sarrukh (he only gets some of their abilities) and the ability itself technically says that a sarrukh may use it in the above ways, doesn't it mean that someone who does get that ability cannot use it?
If a theoretical optimiser can use the wording of an ability to make Pun Pun, can't the theoretical DM use the wording to technically outlaw Pun Pun?I am sure we've had this discussion over and over.

Pretty much every monster ability on every monster is written that way, but it seems fairly obvious that when the ability is acquired by a different creature, the names change - for example, when you add a template.

Of course, DMs are free to rule however they like.
The_Mad_Linguist
02-19-08, 01:52 AM Nope. If you look at the example Sarrukh character, it's name replaces sarrukh in the ability description.
CrimsonDeath
02-19-08, 06:22 PM Nope. If you look at the example Sarrukh character, it's name replaces sarrukh in the ability description.

Notice that its name replaces "sarrukh" in the description of who can use the ability, but the word "sarrukh" is still used to describe creatures that can't be affected by it. So if a creature other than a sarrukh gains Manipulate Form, it can use the ability (as per the Creature X thesis), but remains a valid target.
loganic1
02-20-08, 04:02 PM This is covered in the making of a Beholder mage.

You can take a feat to gain the ability of the form you are taking. If a DM outlaws the original ability based on the technicality or **** retentiveness, then they will have just take that extra feat. I don't know if the original pun pun build even used any of its feats.

If he did, then Pun Pun will have to just wait to level 6. Big deal :/

I think you should kindly explain to any player who thinks of playing pun pun that you won't GM for a game which has completely gone to hell, ie has become broken because they decided to become the ruler of all gods.

No point in playing that, restart campaign, dissallow Kobolds as a starting race. Done.
The_Mad_Linguist
02-20-08, 04:45 PM No point in playing that, restart campaign, dissallow Kobolds as a starting race. Done.

Not like that would stop a dedicated pun-player for more than a few seconds.
loganic1
02-20-08, 05:33 PM I figure you give the player a chance or two, to not make a pun pun, or HIVE or Hulking Hurler, and when they don't seem to realize that upon having reached game breaking point the DM gives up, then ban the player/kill the character, or any thing he wants to discourage the behavior.
BetaSquirrell
02-22-08, 02:57 PM This is TO. No one here cares if infinite power is allowed, they just want to know how to get it.
loganic1
02-24-08, 08:18 PM I'm sorry, I misunderstood. I thought he had problems dealing with a player who was trying to replicate pun pun. I figured he has been looking for an easy technicality to disallow it.

TO is great for not being limited by practicality, and pure number crunching.
I wasn't aiming to be antagonistic towards anyone, just was trying to help a DM who I thought was having player troubles.
CrimsonDeath
02-25-08, 04:13 PM I thought he had problems dealing with a player who was trying to replicate pun pun.

Who did you think had such a problem?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Belial666 02-18-08, 04:22 PM	Manipulate Form: At will, a sarrukh can modify the form of any Scaled One native to Toril, except for aquatic and undead creatures. With a successful touch attack, it can cause one alteration of its choice in the target creature's body. The target falls unconcious for 2d4 rounds due to the shock of changing form. A successful DC 22 Fortitude dave negates both the change and the unconciousness. Sarrukh are immune to this effect. A sarrukh may use this ability to change a minor aspect of the target creature, such as the shape of its head or the color of its scales. It may also choose to make a much more significant alteration, such as converting limbs into tentacles, changing the overall body shape (snake to humanoid, for example), or adding or removing an appendage. Any ability score may be decreased to a minimum of 1 or increased to a maximum equal to the sarrukh's corresponding score. A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it. The change bestowed takes effect immediately and is permanant. Furthermore, the alterations are automatically passed on to all the creature's offspring when it breeds with another of its unmodified kind. Technically, since someone changed into a Sarrukh is not actually Sarrukh (he only gets some of their abilities) and the ability itself technically says that a sarrukh may use it in the above ways, doesn't it mean that someone who does get that ability cannot use it? If a theoretical optimiser can use the wording of an ability to make Pun Pun, can't the theoretical DM use the wording to technically outlaw Pun Pun?
Fwib 02-18-08, 05:40 PM	Manipulate Form: Technically, since someone changed into a Sarrukh is not actually Sarrukh (he only gets some of their abilities) and the ability itself technically says that a sarrukh may use it in the above ways, doesn't it mean that someone who does get that ability cannot use it? If a theoretical optimiser can use the wording of an ability to make Pun Pun, can't the theoretical DM use the wording to technically outlaw Pun Pun?I am sure we've had this discussion over and over. Pretty much every monster ability on every monster is written that way, but it seems fairly obvious that when the ability is acquired by a different creature, the names change - for example, when you add a template. Of course, DMs are free to rule however they like.
The_Mad_Linguist 02-19-08, 01:52 AM	Nope. If you look at the example Sarrukh character, it's name replaces sarrukh in the ability description.
CrimsonDeath 02-19-08, 06:22 PM	Nope. If you look at the example Sarrukh character, it's name replaces sarrukh in the ability description. Notice that its name replaces "sarrukh" in the description of who can use the ability, but the word "sarrukh" is still used to describe creatures that can't be affected by it. So if a creature other than a sarrukh gains Manipulate Form, it can use the ability (as per the Creature X thesis), but remains a valid target.
loganic1 02-20-08, 04:02 PM	This is covered in the making of a Beholder mage. You can take a feat to gain the ability of the form you are taking. If a DM outlaws the original ability based on the technicality or **** retentiveness, then they will have just take that extra feat. I don't know if the original pun pun build even used any of its feats. If he did, then Pun Pun will have to just wait to level 6. Big deal :/ I think you should kindly explain to any player who thinks of playing pun pun that you won't GM for a game which has completely gone to hell, ie has become broken because they decided to become the ruler of all gods. No point in playing that, restart campaign, dissallow Kobolds as a starting race. Done.
The_Mad_Linguist 02-20-08, 04:45 PM	No point in playing that, restart campaign, dissallow Kobolds as a starting race. Done. Not like that would stop a dedicated pun-player for more than a few seconds.
loganic1 02-20-08, 05:33 PM	I figure you give the player a chance or two, to not make a pun pun, or HIVE or Hulking Hurler, and when they don't seem to realize that upon having reached game breaking point the DM gives up, then ban the player/kill the character, or any thing he wants to discourage the behavior.
BetaSquirrell 02-22-08, 02:57 PM	This is TO. No one here cares if infinite power is allowed, they just want to know how to get it.
loganic1 02-24-08, 08:18 PM	I'm sorry, I misunderstood. I thought he had problems dealing with a player who was trying to replicate pun pun. I figured he has been looking for an easy technicality to disallow it. TO is great for not being limited by practicality, and pure number crunching. I wasn't aiming to be antagonistic towards anyone, just was trying to help a DM who I thought was having player troubles.
CrimsonDeath 02-25-08, 04:13 PM	I thought he had problems dealing with a player who was trying to replicate pun pun. Who did you think had such a problem?