Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-02-05, 11:15 PM	Here is my build that I presented in the very cluttered "fall of pun-pun" thread. Due to the scatter-brained nature of that thread I've decided to move my build to a new thread so that my challenge may be critiqued without distraction. Without further ado I give you all: "The Terminator." Build: Wizard3/Nomad3/Cerebremancer 10/Nomad 7/Wizard2/Archmage 5 ML: 20 CL: 20 Noteworthy feats: Shadow Weave Magic, Craft Wonderous Item, [Epic] Improved Metapsionicsx2, Quicken Power, conjunctive mind, psionic meditation, [Epic] Ignore Material Components, Leadership. Race: Elan A Few Noteworth Abilities: Able to cast in an antimagic field or dead magic zone (shadow weave magic) Able to manifest in an antimagic field or dead magic zone (Conjunctive mind). Reference Texts: Time Regression enabling text: "The power regresses time to the point along the time stream just prior to your previous turn, undoing the effects of everyone else’s actions in the meantime. Once you have used time regression, only you retain knowledge of what happened during the round that is being replayed." (Souce: SRD) Moving Back in Time: Time Regression places one just prior to the previous turn. So if one then casts regression once more we are placed one turn prior to the round prior. The loop may continue further and further back to a millenium. Strangely enough, while this would seem to take a millenium it doesn't because we end up to a point before we started. Solving the XP Cost Problem: I have come full circle on this problem, and here is the solution: the thought bottle. The thought bottle will be made as a shadow-magic item by the Terminator some time before the ascention of Pun-Pun and it will be used to store my XP at that point (which is appropriate for a 30th level character.) A full-round action is required to regain XP from the bottle, so I must quicken the time regression after I use the thought bottle. Assuming I was focused in the round before regressing, I will be able to use that focus to fuel another quickened regression. Similarily, the fact that I used the thought bottle in the future round (1 before) is erased and when I arrive at the past round it is available for use once again. The result is a net loss of 500 XP to manifest time regression arbitrary number of times. It should also be noted that this thought bottle is made intelligent as per the normal rules for doing so. This has the effect of transforming the bottle into a creature, which has certain desireable effects. Becoming Invulnerable This will be a long list of sequencing, much of it very cheesy. Sequence One: Getting a few gods on my side Definition: I cast ice-assassin normally, but ignore any material components that are not a focus or divine focus thanks to the epic feat "ignore material components". I am still required to pay the 5000 XP cost. Much of the XP cost is recouperated via a thought bottle the next round. Henceforth I will just say "casts ice-assassin," which will imply that I cast it as normal and then used a thought bottle, for a net loss of 500 XP. Cast Ice-Assassin of a greater deity (rank 17) who has the true shapechange SDA. This deity will be called god_1 henceforth. Cast Ice-Assassin of Bahamut. This deity will be called god_2 henceforth. *This deity is listed to have the ability to create an Aleax. If Bahamut does not exist in Faerun, I could easily travel to the proper campaign setting using shadow-walk. Sequence Two: Gaining Abilities god_1 cannot increase his own abilities, unfortunately, because he is an ice-assassin. To avoid issues with the "RAW" of increasing abilities I will create a temporary god from god_1. This new god shall be called ~god_1. ~god_1 is a proxy of god_1. Using the very same trick that Pun-Pun uses (investing squirrels) we create a temporary god. To retain complete control of this god, however, we first implant a necrotic cyst and then a necrotic tumor into him (assuming he fails his save). At any time god_1 may recall the ranks he invested in ~god_1 as a std action. (he invests only 16 ranks into ~god_1.) ~god_1 is commanded to true-shapechange into the following list of creatures. Each time he does so he accrumulates their extraordinary abilities [1]. *Zodak [Fiend Folio]: Immune to all attacks except those from bludgeoning weapons, the enhancement bonus from such an attack is negated. *Ocean Giant [MMII]: Immune to all attacks from bludgeoning weapons. *Umbral Blot: Disintegrating Touch, Vortex abilities *Death Slaad: Immunity to Sonic *Red Dragon: Immunity to Fire *Black Dragon: Immunity to Acid *White Dragon: Immunity to Cold *Force Dragon: Immunity to Force effects *Radiant Dragon: Immunity to Light effects *Shadow Dragon: Immunity to Energy drain *Blue Dragon: Immunity to Electricity *Prismatic Dragon: Immunity to Light, blindness, and prismatic effects *The tarrasque: a whole host of yummy immunities (most notable is carapace) *Marrulurk Abomination: (This needs to be checked) I believe the marrulurk abomination has an extraordinary trait which grants immortality. Sequence Three: Aleax god_2 is commanded to create an Aleax of me. ~god_1 protects me from the Aleax of myself by placing us both in the area of a prismatic sphere, area divine shield, and behind many layers of iron walls. Any attack of the Aleax against me is countered by ~god_1. ~god_1 cannot kill the Aleax, but he can ready actions against any offensive capability (spells/powers) that the Aleax possesses. Any physical attacks are absorbed by divine shield. ~god_1 uses true shapechange to shapechange into the Aleax of the Terminator, gaining the abilities of the Aleax (targeted at the Terminator). True Shapechange allows one to assume the form of ANY creature, with none of the restrictions that the spell shapechange holds. Still under the protection of ~god_1's divine shield I lash out against my Aleax. With ~god_1 on my side to protect me from any attack the fabricated version of myself can muster, my victory is vitually assured. Should I fail, I will be transported to god_2, who will demand (as I command him to) that I pay 2 copper in repentence. The whole sequence must be started anew in this unlikely case, but it does not spell disaster for the Terminator. The terminator purchases as dorje of True Mind-Switch. Epic? Hellz yes, but it may be easily funded by a number of known means to aquire wealth of an arbitrary amount in D&D. I personally prefer to gate in efreets and command them to use their spell-like wish ability to conjure me a pile of gold worth 25,000 gp each. A void disciple (my cohort) then uses moment of clarity to grant me the ranks in UPD (assuming this cohort has a level or so in exemplar) necessary to use the dorje. Once the switch is complete the shapechange effect is dispelled, returning me to the original state of the Aleax. My cohort grants ~god_1 ranks in UPD sufficient to use the dorje of mind-switch. ~god_1 uses always maximized roll + his new ranks to use the dorje to mind-switch with the Terminator [2]. He need only make a DC 20 check. Terminator gains the set of (ex) abilities listed in sequence 1 along with the abilities of an Aleax (targeted at him). ~god_1 transforms into a living vault, an elder pudding, then an abomination, and then back into the tarrasque. (To gain total spell-immunity, split ability, and abomination traits.). ~god_1 uses alter size in conjunction with true shapechange to increase his size to 120 feat by 120 feet. The terminator finally creates an ice-assassin of ~god_1. This ice-assassin now has all the abilities of the Terminator (aleax immunity and the above list + living vault immunity and abomination traits.) The new ice-assassin is known as god_3. god_1 transforms into an iron colossus and then assumes the form of a pseudodragon (tiny size). Three more ice-assassins are made in the image of ~god_1 (thus being very similar to god_3, except that these 3 exude an extraordinary anti-magic field). These three will be known as god_4, god_5, and god_6. The terminator polymorphs into a black dragon thereby losing all his (ex) qualities. god_3 swallows the Terminator whole (Tarrasque ability) [This is possible because the Terminator is no longer invulnerable to all attacks]. The Terminator now dismisses the polymorph once inside the stomach of god_3 to ensure his survival. god_2 is ordered to slay himself. god_1 recalls the ranks he invested in ~god_1 and then slays ~god_1. The resulting level loss I suffer is recouperated by yet another thought bottle. god_1 is ordered to slay himself. gods 4,5, and 6 are commanded to assume positions about god_3 (since they are tiny in size they can occupy the squares of god_3.) The entire entourage travels to the nearest dead magic zone. A total of 5 ice assassins were made, and 6 thought bottles were used to store and retrieve XP as a result. 1 additional thought bottle was manufactured as an intelligent item for safe-keeping when I preform my regressions. What does the Terminator look like after his transformation? He is sitting in a pool of digestive juices inside an ice-assassin of a tarrasque/deity/thing that is immune to everything from attacks to magic to supernatural abilities. This tarrasque thing is 240 feet by 240 feet in size and has 3 pseudodragon-like parasite ice-assassins which occupy its square. These pseudodragons are equally impervious to attack and emanate an extraordinary antimagic field in a 100' radius. None of these deities are affected by these fields, as they are deities. The Terminator is protected by god_3 who blocks the line of effect of the AMF to him. All 4 ice-assassins and the terminator happily live their days on some random dead magic zone. The fact that they live in a dead magic zone isn't necessary, but it is awfully hard to do much to the Terminator while he resides there. Most specific attacks have been "handled" by the above set of immunities. The only known tactic that will actually affect the terminator is the use of a mobile portal to transport him to a different location. However, due to his immunities and the fact that he needn't rely on environment, this technique is rendered irrelevant. Killing Pun-Pun: And now the moment we've all been waiting for: the death of Pun-Pun. We find Pun-Pun's ancestors (using LoP's infinite knowledge check trick... see his thread here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=546612) ). We kill the ancestors and go on our merry little way. Pun-Pun is no more. We could time hop our way back to the future, or we could stay in the past... really though the present is redefined to now. Some might say that this is not the same as killing Pun-Pun, but I beg to differ. I retain the memory of a now forgotten future in which a pun-pun did exist. For this future to have been removed is the same thing as removing someone from future existance by more mundane means. One need only expand their normal definition of "murder" to see how the two are the same. Assumptions Section: 1.) I am older than Pun-Pun 2.) Both the item I made and the level I have acheived was done so before Pun-Pun was born. 3.)Pun-Pun exists... this is an assumption because any god worth its salt could have destroyed the insolent punk long before pun-pun ascended to god-hood. 4.)I, and the rest of the multiverse, exist... It is conceivable that pun-pun could fill and destroy every living thing in the universe. But since I allowed him to exist, it's only fair that I be allowed to exist for this excersize. 5.)I know of pun-pun and the fact that he is an overdeity with the ability to portfolio sense any action I take. Admittedly this is a bit of metagaming, the knowledge might be obtainable via a number of methods. Eventually the knowledge will come to me and I will respond. I can regress an arbitrary number of rounds. FAQ: 1. Does the time regression trick actually work? Yeah it does. 2. Wouldn't Pun-Pun sense the event of his own destruction NI weeks in the past? This is a strange time-paradoxical question. Pun-Pun would not sense the event until it happened, which is in the past, but if it happened in the past then Pun-Pun does not exist. So basically what I've done is erased Pun-Pun from the time stream. Essentially Pun-Pun is doomed to never exist. It's a strange time paradox that I have only partially grappled with mentally. Even if he does sense it, what the heck can he do to me? Feel free to discuss this. 3. Don't you lose levels when you go so far back in time?: I am assumed to have been in a relatively static state from my ascension to the fall of pun-pun. Moving forward or backwards doesn't reduce my XP significantly. 4. What if Pun-Pun thinks of this first and travels back in time?: Here I hope to be protected by the grandfather clause paradox. If I am older than Pun-Pun I could travel back further than Pun-Pun could before I would cease to exist. Hence my assumption at the very beginning of this post. I am also assuming that one cannot travel back further in time than one's birth. A fair assumption I think. 5. What about Teleport Through Time?: This spell is the bane of Pun-Pun because it contains a clause that legalizes DM fiat. If the DM gets to choose what will be the effect of Pun-Pun traveling through time then this intellectual argument degrades into "what the average DM would rule." Also, I am of the opinion that every DM, given the chance to destroy Pun-Pun, would take it. 6. What about an Artifact that does XXX?: Unless the artifact is "unique" it may manufactured by Pun-Pun. Other such artifacts might not be possible without overstepping the "DM fiat." In short, I'm not too worried about any artifacts harming me. I will address the concern of a more famous one here: the annulus. The annulus is capable of destroying any psionic item/creature within 100 feet. Of course none of my ice-assassins are psionic (when they shapechanged into me they gain neither my subtype or my psi-like abilities, just my (ex) abilities.) The monsterous tarrasque in whom I reside has an effective radius of 120 feet. The only way to get within a 100 feet of the Terminator is to be inside god_3 himself. This is, of course, impossible unless god_3 swallows pun-pun whole... which he won't. A DEFINITION OF THE THING WE CALL "PUN-PUN" **Before we go any further I think we should define what Pun-Pun is so we can have a coherent argument over what he can and cannot do.** 1. Pun-Pun has been in existance for 1000 years 2. Pun-Pun's individual stats are infinite for all intents and purposes 3. Pun-Pun has at most 5256000000 divine ranks [Assuming Pun-Pun gains one divine rank per round for his entire existance. If he gains divine ranks faster than this, please let me know.] 4. Pun-Pun has any ability found in any book. This is made for simplicity's sake. 5. Pun-Pun's powers are limited to those who do not require DM fiat, as are most builds. Number 5 is the most important limitation. This prevents Pun-Pun from making artifacts, altering things that do not have rules for altering them, etc, etc. To beat pun-pun within the rules one must stay within the rules.
SigmaJargon 12-02-05, 11:36 PM	Wow. I am duly impressed. :clap: I will have to think this over throughly before giving a more substantial response. Traveling through time always causes all sorts of peculiar results.
Taeldrin Laesrash 12-02-05, 11:55 PM	Strange, I'll give you that. Still, your comment about the Omniscient portfolio makes me think about what exactly Pun-Pun is the god of. While I think this works within the rules of D&D, you'd have to check with a quantam physicist for the finer print. And as a side note, you might want to forsake the Commoner irony just to make sure Pun-Pun is dead.
ChaosRabbit 12-02-05, 11:56 PM	Isn't it typical for the CO board to create the most uber-god-thing and then figure out a way to kill it.
PhoenixInferno 12-03-05, 12:12 AM	Here's a potential showstopper - there's a theory that postulates that the timeline is self-preserving. That is, if you went back in time to try and kill your grandfather, random events will conspire to counter your attempts on his life. Thus, the Grandfather Paradox is solved. Of course, I find true time-travel hard to believe, but magic is what magic does.
SoulGamit 12-03-05, 12:29 AM	If I remember correctly, Pun-Pun has NI intelligence and wisdom. Therefore, it's a safe assumption he'd know is own weakness and anihalate anything and everything that was born before he was. Also, if time travel was a weakness, he'd also prevent that.
Tempest Stormwind 12-03-05, 12:31 AM	Here's a potential showstopper - there's a theory that postulates that the timeline is self-preserving. That is, if you went back in time to try and kill your grandfather, random events will conspire to counter your attempts on his life. Thus, the Grandfather Paradox is solved. Of course, I find true time-travel hard to believe, but magic is what magic does.I, personally, enjoy the Edict of Time from Hyperconcious. Minor changes are accounted for by minor fluxes in the timestream. Major changes, on the other hand, essentially give you seven days of your subjective time to fix it. If you do not set things right, then you WILL die. The exact method is up to the DM. Yes, it legalizes DM fiat. For all you know the Timeline might sic Pun-Pun on you, even after you destroy him. :) (Dahaka, anyone?)
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-03-05, 12:32 AM	Strange, I'll give you that. Still, your comment about the Omniscient portfolio makes me think about what exactly Pun-Pun is the god of. While I think this works within the rules of D&D, you'd have to check with a quantam physicist for the finer print. And as a side note, you might want to forsake the Commoner irony just to make sure Pun-Pun is dead. Well, I'm not a quantum physicist... yet. But I am a physics major for what that's worth. As far as the commoner irony... I'll kill Pun-Pun's parents with commoners, retaining the irony and ensuring pun-pun's destruction.
fnord 12-03-05, 12:39 AM	The Teleport Through Time (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b) poses two problems for this build (although it makes time travel easier). First, it allows Pun-Pun to travel back in time to before his birth, and it also enshrines self-preserving time-line hypothesis PhoenixInferno mentioned in psuedo-RAW. Edit: I don't mean that the build is invalid or doomed to failure, just that the spell is a potential weakness.
Rashomon 12-03-05, 12:45 AM	I was the first to see this, yet I'm the 9th to comment... Very impressive, TG. You seem to realize a lesson of Sun-Tzu: "Attack your enemy where he is weak." Of course, in this case, it's more a matter of when than where... Is it possible that Pun-pun, foreseeing this, is now actively swapping between infinite alternate timelines to protect every instance of his prior incarnations? Maybe that's why he hasn;t crushed D&D yet. After all, in this kind of battle, the attacker has a massive advantage because he knows precisely when and where he'll attack. Oh, and TG, why not use... hmm... Modify Memory to make ECL 2 Pun-pun your slave and impress the imperative to serve and obey you into his mind, no matter how much power he gains...
DisposableHero_ 12-03-05, 12:50 AM	If I remember correctly, Pun-Pun has NI intelligence and wisdom. Therefore, it's a safe assumption he'd know is own weakness and anihalate anything and everything that was born before he was. Also, if time travel was a weakness, he'd also prevent that.This assumes that Pun-Pun acquires NI paranoia to accompany his NI power (when in fact the reverse is likely true, Pun-Pun would have NI arrogance do to his NI power). I question the self denial however. To be able to action this plan our potential slayer must understand the nature and origins of Pun-Pun, and as he lacks any way to sense the future he must gain this knowledge after it has come to pass. Therefor he must concieve the plan and gain the means while Pun-Pun is in power, a fact which would become known to Pun-Pun several months (or years) before it came to pass. The only solution I can see is if the plan were concieved and stored within a thought bottle beyond the reach of time, so Pun-Pun (potentially, I'm not familiar with all the SDAs that might allow him to) could not sense it. If you were able to remove yourself from the time stream to make all the plans to slay Pun-Pun, store them beyond the reach of time so you can again access them before Pun-Pun reaches power, then it would be a simple task of eliminating Pun-Pun before his flashpoint.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-03-05, 01:15 AM	If I remember correctly, Pun-Pun has NI intelligence and wisdom. Therefore, it's a safe assumption he'd know is own weakness and anihalate anything and everything that was born before he was. Also, if time travel was a weakness, he'd also prevent that. Ah, I knew it would come out of the wood-work: the pun-pun can do anything counter-arguement. True, pun-pun would probably know that time-traveling is his weaknes, but the idea that he could prevent time travel is as silly as saying he could stop everyone in the universe from moving. Also silly is the notion that Pun-Pun could kill every being that was born before him, as there could be potentially an infinite number of candidates (there being infinite people). Thus, Pun-Pun would need to make a sacrifice: hunt down and destroy every thing that was born before he was, or focus on becoming more infinite. If he abandon's his quest to become more infinite, then someone could take it up and supercede his level by focusing purely on becoming infinite and defeat pun-pun at his own game. In this way I have cornered pun-pun like an expert chess player forks his opponent: I force pun-pun to choose between two self-destructive choices. To address the "teleport through time spell": One should note that this spell contains flavor text which legalizes DM fiat. Since DMs are the mortal enemy of pun-pun, pun-pun has a strong incentive not to use this spell. Here's the not-so-enabling text which a few of you have mentioned in passing: "Special Note: The introduction of time travel into any campaign can be fraught with peril, so tread carefully. Players will wonder how much they can mess with the timeline, and you may run into instances of the grandfather paradox. Further, changes made very far back in time cannot really be worked out completely because of the chaotic aspect of events. Thus, it is simplest to use the rule that changes in time are minor and somehow time smooths them out. This argues for a determinism and predestination in the ways of your world, but you can say that once events have transpired, small perturbations are possible (this person lives rather than dies, but does not contribute to events in a meaningful way), but the large-scale events themselves somehow happen anyway. If the cause is changed, another cause comes along. In the case of someone killing their own grandfather, the PC might find that he is the same but has a different family when returning to the present. As long as you keep the knowledge of how to travel in time restricted, your campaign will not fall apart." It should be apparent that this note is addressed to the DM. The DM is then required to adjudicate what is best. The fact that the text waffles toward either argument makes any use of this spell as justification for a counter argument shaky at best. So, if Pun-Pun wants to avoid the realm of legalized DM fiat he must use the power I use: time regression. This power incrementally moves one a round at a time backward. Thus, the grandfather paradox is entirely valid because one cannot move past the point in time in which one ceases to exist. Hence the assumption that I am older than Pun-Pun and can escape his puissant gaze.
fnord 12-03-05, 01:28 AM	A Finally, if pun-pun decides to use the horribly broken teleport through time spell he would run into the only realm that could defeat him: legalized DM fiat. Into this realm pun-pun should never wander. Touche. That's a very good point. Additionally, if two copies of Pun-Pun exist at the same time because of Teleport Through Time, their arbitarily high sensory abilities would have them detect each other, regardless of range, and then attack each other until one dies (thus ending Pun-Pun's existance in at least from the second hometime onward). So, Teleport Through Time is a bad choice for Pun-Pun.
Random Sasquatch 12-03-05, 01:36 AM	Wow, Just when I thought the ace of spades couldn't be trumped, you throw a joker down and houserule that during this game the stars are aligned and you have the possibility of creating an ultra royal flush with it. Buuuuuuuut, what the hell am I talking about anyway. Well done Tleilaxu. Something to ponder in our little ubercharacter creation thinktank. Wouldn't it be hard to replace all these variables with controls? Pun-Pun, as soon as he's created controls everything. How could he be defeated? By anything? I don't know? Too many questions, too many variables, I don't think it would work. If you believe it would, convince me otherwise. The night Quatchman
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-03-05, 01:47 AM	I question the self denial however. To be able to action this plan our potential slayer must understand the nature and origins of Pun-Pun, and as he lacks any way to sense the future he must gain this knowledge after it has come to pass. Therefor he must concieve the plan and gain the means while Pun-Pun is in power, a fact which would become known to Pun-Pun several months (or years) before it came to pass. The only solution I can see is if the plan were concieved and stored within a thought bottle beyond the reach of time, so Pun-Pun (potentially, I'm not familiar with all the SDAs that might allow him to) could not sense it. If you were able to remove yourself from the time stream to make all the plans to slay Pun-Pun, store them beyond the reach of time so you can again access them before Pun-Pun reaches power, then it would be a simple task of eliminating Pun-Pun before his flashpoint. What we need is a "No-ship" from Dune. [If you haven't read the second Dune trilogy I highly recommend it.] Anyways the best D&D approximation that I can find is this: the Astral Plane. While on the astral plane time does not pass, and all effects that are related to time do not matter on the plane (natural healing, age, etc). I'm not sure, but I think that any actions taken on this plane are done effectively out side of the time stream. So one could store their thought bottle on the astral plane. /*Below is an attempt to further iron-shod my build against pun-pun... As is I think there are a few holes in my logic. I will try to fix these when I am not so tired.*/ [EDIT]: I will now attempt to prove that I can evade pun-pun's deific omniscience ASSUMPTION: To be on the Astral Plane is to be outside the stream of time. From this assumption we can say that the sensing of any event be it past or present does not determine events that happen on the astral plane, because the astral plane is neither past nor present. Thus, it is entirely conceivable that the psion is simply a githyanki psion that has heard of Pun-Pun and is older than Pun-Pun (I believe githyanki are immortal). In this hypothetical instance Pun-Pun would not be aware of any thought that crosses the mind of our psion. The psion is careful never to venture outside the astral plane so that his thoughts are kept secure from the penetrating gaze of Pun-Pun. Once the plan is hatched the psion stores it in a thought bottle and has his memory modified so that he will seek out this thought bottle upon his arrival in the past. He doesn't know why he should seek it out, but he knows that it is imperative that he must seek it out. The psion then goes to the material plane. The excuse that was planted in his head via modify memory will be: "my long lost lover died on the material plane some time ago by material plane time and I want to save her." This unimportant piece of information would not likely arouse Pun-Pun's curiosity. Especially if the event that the psion's memory is referring to happened after the birth of pun-pun. The catch is that we modify the psion's memory so that he thinks that 2+2=5, or that 250 years = 5256000000 rounds (the number of rounds in a millenia). Since this thought is unrelated to the event it wouldn't trigger pun-pun's portfolio sense of "someone might try to travel back before I was born and kill me." Now we begin to travel back in time, rewriting history as he goes. It is important to note that the psion undoes all of the actions made by anyone during this time, so that if pun-pun had tried to kill him in some past moment that would be undone. History is effectively put on hold until the psion finishes his time-traveling. In the end, our psion arrives at a point in history beyond the reach of pun-pun. The rest... is history.
RadicalTaoist 12-03-05, 01:52 AM	lol, Pun-Pun's only possible defense is to convince everyone to be his friend so no one wants to kill him. Well done TG.
g23armani 12-03-05, 02:01 AM	While I haven't spent the time to think it through I must say one thing: bravo. Very well thought out. G23armani
tsuyoshikentsu 12-03-05, 03:21 AM	But here's my question: What if a THIRD party, older than Pun-Pun, follows this same method but does this to YOU?
Tempest Stormwind 12-03-05, 03:24 AM	But here's my question: What if a THIRD party, older than Pun-Pun, follows this same method but does this to YOU? Anyone familiar with Hindu worldview myth or related things will simply say "Turtles all the way down." to this. Basically, the insanity has to stop somewhere. I mean, since everything exists, this means that this stunt hasn't been done an infinite number of times. Now, if you take that in an extreme limit case, this could prove that the technique won't work somehow (because Pun-Pun exists, this means that he could not have been erased in the past... sort of like the Grandfather Paradox here), but that's a corny attempt to attack this. If it does break, I'd prefer it to crack under rules, rather than philosophy.
tsuyoshikentsu 12-03-05, 03:32 AM	Anyone familiar with Hindu worldview myth or related things will simply say "Turtles all the way down." to this. ROFL!!!! Literally. Which is harder than it sounds, as I was actually in bed on my laptop. Basically, the insanity has to stop somewhere. I mean, since everything exists, this means that this stunt hasn't been done an infinite number of times. Now, if you take that in an extreme limit case, this could prove that the technique won't work somehow (because Pun-Pun exists, this means that he could not have been erased in the past... sort of like the Grandfather Paradox here), but that's a corny attempt to attack this. If it does break, I'd prefer it to crack under rules, rather than philosophy. I don't think it is, except for the "kill-it-before-it-gets-going" method, which also stops Pun-Pun at the beginning, which is the entire point of this build, but which shouldn't matter since that's a fallacy in every build everywhere anyway. I am fully aware of how badly written that sentence was. I'm tired, and it made my point. The point I was really trying to make with the above post was that, in a game where turning cows into salt makes you obscenely rich, a halfling riding you makes you nigh-invincible, and yes, the strongest creature in the Planes is a kobold, time travel is NOT something we should be messing with. Or else... THE DM.
Vaelan 12-03-05, 03:50 AM	I see a few problems. 1. According to a Sage ruling, wish costs XP even if used as a supernatural or spell-like ability. Sage rulings are official, even if they are quite silly at times, and thus you need to find a new way to get an essentially limitless number of uses of Time Regression. 2. Pun-Pun could very well use Alter Reality to make time travel impossible. There is absolutely no limit to what a deity with Alter Reality can do. 3. This presumed mage would have to know anything about Pun-Pun. Not only could Pun-Pun immediately and irrevocably strike any memory of himself from the minds of all mortals through merit of him being a deity of limitless power, but there isn't a single part of Pun-Pun's rise to power that is particularly spectacular and warranting extraplanar observation, especially assuming the complete lack of warning any mortal source would have. If you want to add to your assumptions that this person is informed of Pun-Pun's ascent through contact with a divine being, then it would not be entirely unreasonable for a person to know of Pun-Pun. Also, part of your post is the assumption that Pun-Pun "messed things up". This is rather presumptuous, since you could hardly say that what Pun-Pun does to ascend to godhood "messed things up" as it affects nothing beyond himself and his psicrystal, and presuming that he uses his limitless power to mess things up is quite beyond your rights. Lastly, you aren't exactly beating Pun-Pun. You're beating a level 2 Kobold and screwing with causation.
Rashomon 12-03-05, 04:54 AM	Lastly, you aren't exactly beating Pun-Pun. You're beating a level 2 Kobold and screwing with causation. Pun-pun in his full omnipotent glory is essentially statted DM fiat. Trying to fight him face-to-face isn't so much a woefully one-sided battle as your opponent taking the entire damn battlefield and hitting you over the head with it. I think the problem here is that most of us are locked into the pattern of direct confrontation. TG thought outside the box and found a way to attack Pun-pun indirectly. I think that rather than deriding his amusing technique, we should try and come up with other equally indirect ways to affect him. Tempest, I'm betting you're a Discworld fan - how would the Brutha vs. Om approach work against Pun-pun?
Prominence 12-03-05, 09:26 AM	The bit on alter reality to stop time travel, not sure if it works, but basically I can only see a few problems with it. 1) Portfolio sense, for pun-pun, is largely undefined. Since we can assume he has NI prepared actions and contingencies in place, he could feasibly stop this as it's happening. Due to very good contingent wording, it's feasible that since pun-pun can basically do anything through time (possibly without even going through time himself, with epic spells), then pun-pun should survive. Contgency sort of throws a wrench into this I think. 2) Pun-pun can use Lord of Procrastination's Knowledge-check abuse to stop this. 3) You are forced into cause and effect, so if you destroy what would be pun-pun, it is plausible that pun-pun2, the wizard standing next to pun-pun that didn't die, would now become pun-pun - thus having the same problem over again. I'm not sure, but do you have the resources to kill every kobold to stop this?
Caelic 12-03-05, 10:15 AM	One problem I see (beyond the fairly formidable one of the characters lacking the knowledge of Pun-Pun to pull this off : ) The text quoted from Teleport Through Time discusses time travel in a general sense, and establishes that time travel, in general, is subject to DM fiat. Thus, Time Regression would face the same problem of being, ultimately, a DM's fiat solution to a DM's fiat problem (Pun-Pun's omnipotence.)
Caelic 12-03-05, 10:30 AM	I must also, respectfully, suggest that upon attaining omniscience in the first place, Pun-Pun's only logical "first move" is to travel back to the beginning of time himself, so as to be ready and waiting for any threat the instant it emerges. He is, after all, immortal, and his plans to cement his power should take that into account. Of course, this brings up the problematic aspect of Pun-Pun in the first place: the existence of other gods. If Alter Reality is as unlimited in scope as we have suggested, then the existing deities have the capability to forsee and eliminate any and all potential threats such as Pun-Pun.
Seerow 12-03-05, 12:08 PM	Id like to point out that at ECL2 Pun Pun is a Divine Minion1/Sorc1 iirc. Shapechanging as a level 12 Druid I think would let him tear through a handful of level 1 commoners easily. ...really, a house cat that gets ****** off can tear through a handful of level 1 commoners easily. Aside from that, I like the idea, though I weep at the thought of Pun-Pun being defeated by something like Time Travel...
Seeker of Undeath 12-03-05, 12:20 PM	It occurs to me that there's always one enormous element to both Pun-Pun's rise and his projected downfall: secrecy. Would Pun-Pun likely make it to power unless he kept his workings secret? No. As many have pointed out a god would likely defend the status quo if he/she were aware. Gods are aware of happenings in regard to their portfolio up to what...weeks in advance based on divine rank? I haven't read the book in a long while, but let's say it's about that. It's guaranteed that one god will know: the god of secrets. The god of secrets wants to keep secrets, correct? He/she would likely want the method of ascension kept under lock and key. Pun-Pun's scheme, while a secret, is considerably less valuable than ascension itself. So I don't think the god/dess would mind sharing the little Kobold's aim with the rest of the pantheon. Now let's flip this around and assume that Pun-Pun comes to power. I see nothing to stop him from sharing/taking over the role of god of secrets (and probably everything else) save his own desires. Any plot to remove him or his power would likely be kept a heavily guarded secret, I would think. If so Pun-Pun would very likely be aware in advance. So once again the actual implementation of Pun-Pun is as improbable as his removal. I love the ingenuity that spawned Pun-Pun to death. Heck he cameo-ed in the game I ran the other night (didn't do anything, just said hi). At the same time I think it's about as worthwhile to worry about destroying him as it is to worry about actually using him in a game. You can what-if any situation to death. It'll come of naught. As for the Alter Reality method...it's on par with all that is Pun-Pun. I could see a god using it to time travel and, instead of eliminating Pun-Pun or his parents, etc, destroying the first Sarrukh. Forget Pun-Pun and his race. Go for that which truly shouldn't exist. *shrug* I know the idea's frought with holes. So's the entire concept of even worrying about what one would/could do with Pun-Pun. Is Pun-Pun possible? Absolutely. It's been shown. Is Pun-Pun probable? Not by my understanding. I say the same of his destruction. The glory of Pun-Pun was the proof that the lowliest creature (in the eyes of most players) could in fact ascend to unlimited power within the confines of the present D&D game. It's humbling and awe-inspiring. It gives hope and terror. The game we know and love is truly without bounds save for our imaginations. Now that the point has been proven let Pun-Pun sink into the darkness to watch over us in peace.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-03-05, 12:24 PM	Ok so the current counter arguments that I see are these: 1. Alter Reality SDA could stop time travel all together. 2. Pun-Pun would travel back to the beginning of time and ensure that no one could pull my stunt. 3. I wouldn't know about Pun-Pun. 4. One cannot remove wish's XP component by the Sage's ruling. Now for my rebuttals: 1. This may be possible, but it lacks in one category: the ability to affect infinite area. If you would actually read the SDA description it describes how one may render a magical/supernatural effect (such as restricted time travel) permanent. Admittedly the conditions are vague, but they do contain finite numbers and as we assume in this build pun-pun has only been in existance for 1000 years, meaning he is no where near infinite in power. Bottom line: While pun-pun may use/abuse wish-like powers he cannot affect the entire multi-verse with it, leaving an opening possibility for my character's trick. 2. There are two known ways to travel back in time: my way or with the "teleport through time" spell. Teleport through time contains a clause that basically says: DM will decide the effects of your actions. This clause is quoted above somewhere. Basically the use of this spell is pun-pun suicide because he enters the realm of DM fiat and will immediately be smitten. -If one goes back in time my way you run into the clause: all actions in that round are undone. This works great until you come to the round on which you were born. Bam, now you don't exist. This is the limit for time travel via my method. This is why I need to be older than pun-pun, and it is why once I am beyond his birth point he cannot affect me. 3. Pun-Pun is an overdiety true, and knowledge of overdieties is rare. However, you forgot one thing: I was there when pun-pun was on the ascent. This build assumes that such an outrageous ascent would hit headlines at some point in time. Or that my character in his collection of knowledge some how happened upon the knowledge of pun-pun's birth place. Either way, an epic bardic knowledge check or divination spell would reveal the pertanant information to me. To dispell the idea that pun-pun can erase history with his divine might, I ask you: show me which SDA would allow him to do so? 4. I am tempted to say that the Sage is on crack and shouldn't be heeded. However, I'll simply refute the sage with a barrage of RAW and precedence. The dweomerkeeper supernatural spell description makes it very clear: spells cast in this manner do not have components nor are they checked by SR. Furthermore, a reading of either SLA or Su abilities shows that neither of them have XP components. Lastly, any class ability that wishes to prevent wish abuse (such as the Archmage's SLA class ability) explicitly states that XP costs still accrue. Since the Dweomerkeeper does not contain this clause and actually says the opposite, I feel that I am safely within the RAW. As for precedence, we all know efreets can grant us wishes 3/day, but no-where does it say that the wish we ask for is limited by the amount of XP the efreet may spend. This is because the efreet's wish ability is a SLA and does not have an XP component. I like this discussion, but I am afraid it is disintegrating into a chant "pun-pun is infinite and can do anything." This is simply not true by the assumptions set out in the beginning of the build. Also, while deities are extremely powerful, they are unfortunately not omnipotent. Any wish abuse or strange SDA ability that has an open ended result is the realm of DM fiat. So use of such powers are not effective in this intellectual excersize. In fact for pun-pun to enter the realm of DM fiat is rather lethal for him.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-03-05, 12:33 PM	Oh, another "out of the box" thought occured to me. Is it possible to leave Pun-Pun's multiverse? I seem to remember that one could travel to other multi-verses via the plane of shadow, but I can't find that referrence. If true this would be the ideal place for me to plot and conspire against Pun-Pun.
SoulGamit 12-03-05, 01:05 PM	Right up until pun-pun travels there as well. RAW reason your plan wouldn't work: The very undone clause that prevents pun-pun from using that ability to travel back in time. If everything was undone, that includes the creation of the thought bottle would be undone unless it was made before pun-pun was born, and then we run into a question of how you could concievably know about pun-pun before he exists? At first glance quintessince should solve this problem, but you making or recieving the quintessence would be undone. There's one other interesting problem, the ochre jelly's ability to make unlimited copies of himself. Pun-pun can concievably fill every square in the multiverse. Even the problem of how he could live with himself is solved by having his clones, in fact, be the one replicating itself. The clones all have an ex ability that make them completely loyal to the origonal. As for killing everything that's older then him, it's very possible. Pun-Pun is capable of cloning himself (and having the clones be incredably loyal to him through an EX ability). While he amasses endless power and makes himself more infinite his clones commit mass genocide. Also note that pun-pun has what is literally an infinite amount of readied actions, so, do to wierd game mechanics, he can amass what is literally an endless amount of power in 6 seconds by using affinity field + synchronicity + a clone + metamind's infinite power point ability. Therefore, he doesn't have to waste even a single round in combat anihalating anything he wants. The astral plane bit runs into an insteresting problem. If the astral plane is not in the past, present, or future how could you possibly be older then pun-pun? You weren't there before him, because the astral plane isn't in the past.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-03-05, 01:16 PM	To SoulGamit: Edit: yikes, I hadn't thought of that problem. How's this? The thought and item were manufactured on the Astral plane, outside the stream of time. So they will exist no matter in no matter what time they are pulled to. To your ironic use of my Legion build as it is applied to Pun-Pun, one should note that such an event is not immediately infinite either. As people begin to realize what is happening (it takes about 34-36 rounds to clone yourself enough to cover the earth) they would begin to scramble for a way to kill Pun-Pun. Due to the infinite nature of the multi-verse one, if not several, people would come upon my solution and make use of it. As for the Astral plane bit... I think that arguement has holes as well, which is why I put that disclaimer above it. If our psion were an elan that moved to the astral plane to plot then we may have a solution. I will think on this further.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-03-05, 02:04 PM	For Future Posts: Please Adhere to the Pun-Pun limitations presented in the original post. If you think that one of these limitations is faulty (as in Pun-Pun is able to gain these abilities faster than I presented) let me know, and I will change them.
kisinith 12-03-05, 02:15 PM	Let me say first congrats on the build its a great idea. That said I do have a couple of problems with it, not mechanically which as far as I can tell looks fine, but rather with some assumptions made in it. The specific assumption is that a being of Pun Pun's stature, one with NI stats and practically every spell, ability, etc would be unaware of this weakness if for no other reason than there is a spell "teleport through time" that allows time travel. Why would he not use the spell to go back and place a few contingency spells on his past self and any discernable ancestors. It dosent even have to be anything special, how about a trigger that if he drops below 0 hp it triggers a regeneration spell. Also throw in another trigger that would summon some big nasty creatures to protect him. Following that line of thought could he not also have some sort of alert that would let the divine Pun Pun know that someone is messing with his history so he can take a direct hand in matters. Lastly if done properly if done properly he would run into time paradoxes as his goal is the preservation of the time stream not its disruption. edit: I think everything fits with the Pun Pun definations but I was writing it before you posted that last one.
SoulGamit 12-03-05, 02:32 PM	Pun-Pun is incapable of traveling backwords in time because he must either experiance DM fait or his own undoing. While he'd have all the knowledge he gained while being pun-pun, he'd lose everything else. On your assumptions: Pun-pun would ignore or not care about someone going back in time. While it is true that pun-pun may not care about you going back and seeing a loved one or whatever, you aren't just going back in time. Your also undoing pun-pun. Time regression in itself would kill pun-pun because it would undo him. I'd consider that something important enough to warrent my attention. In truth, time regression itself destroys pun-pun, you killing his parents only ensures he isn't reborn. To your ironic use of my Legion build as it is applied to Pun-Pun, one should note that such an event is not immediately infinite either. As people begin to realize what is happening (it takes about 34-36 rounds to clone yourself enough to cover the earth) they would begin to scramble for a way to kill Pun-Pun. Is there some reason affinity field + synchronicy + metamind's truely infinite PP won't work? If there is, I'd love to hear it (I don't mean that rudely, I would really love a way to stop synchronicity abuse). As it stands, pun-pun can make an unlimited number of actions each and every turn, meaning that he truely can fill the multiverse in a time span of no more then 6 seconds (one round). Due to the infinite nature of the multi-verse one, if not several, people would come upon my solution and make use of it. The multi-verse is infinite? I don't recall reading that, although I'm not familier with the subject so I very well could have missed it. Were is this stated? As for people thinking of your sollution, your right, since knowledge checks take no actions they very well may know. Now all they need to do is find a way to accomplish it without taking any actions pun-pun could respond to through his unlimited amount of unspecified readied actions.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-03-05, 02:55 PM	While its true that Pun-Pun could go back in time via the "teleport through time" spell, this has a few problems as I've probably said a couple times now... which means I should put it in the FAQ. Refer to the FAQ for reasoning that opposes Pun-Pun's use of this spell. Anyways, lets assume that Pun-Pun travels back in time my way, which as far as I know contains no DM Fiat clauses. Then he cannot go back further than the moment at which he was born, because to do so would erase that event from history. (The power states that all actions in the future round are undone). To address the problem of Pun-Pun traveling backwards in time there are two cases. (note this assumes that Pun-Pun must use my method of time travel) 1.) Pun-Pun goes back in time after acheiving power, but before I go back in time: Conceivably Pun-Pun could use this strategy to lay in the past and ambush me when I start my path backward in time. If Pun-Pun were to do so he would redefine the present to be the point at which he is in the past (because he is rewriting the past with this power.) If our psion were somehow able to escape the timestream (ie move to the astral plane) he could start the pun-pun trick himself whilst Pun-Pun is reducing his power by traveling back in time. So Pun-Pun shouldn't choose this power because someone might surpass him in power while on the null-time stream when he is traveling back in time on the timeline. 2.) Pun-Pun Starts moving in time after I start. Simple solution: I win because I undo his past actions, there's nothing he can do to stop me if I go first, unless he is on the null time stream. But if he is on the null time stream then Pun-Pun cannot see into the past or the future because there is no past, nor future. This means that if Pun-Pun were to be on the astral plane he would cease to anticipate the moves of his enemies. I would win. In the end this turns out to be a game of time-chess. I may have presented a fallacy in my strategy, but right now I can't see it. That's where y'all come in.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-03-05, 03:05 PM	In truth, time regression itself destroys pun-pun, you killing his parents only ensures he isn't reborn. Is there some reason affinity field + synchronicy + metamind's truely infinite PP won't work? If there is, I'd love to hear it (I don't mean that rudely, I would really love a way to stop synchronicity abuse). As it stands, pun-pun can make an unlimited number of actions each and every turn, meaning that he truely can fill the multiverse in a time span of no more then 6 seconds (one round). I hadn't thought of it that way. Time regression would indeed kill pun-pun. See my post above, though for a possible solution to this. Time-chess strategy as I call it... As for synchronicity + metamind + affinity field, yes there is a way to stop this. Apparently, one can have more than one readied actions at a time, but once one of them triggers all of the others are foregone. This rebuke was given to me when I presented my original build on the "fall of pun-pun" thread. Apparently, synchronicity isn't as broken as everyone makes it out to be. Talk to DisposableHero_ or Cvazi for a better refutation of the Synchronicity problem... I still don't quite get how it all works (which is why I ended up avoiding it completely in the end). Thus, the notion that Pun-Pun can have infinite readied actions and use them all is a fallacy, so far as I know.
fnord 12-03-05, 03:38 PM	Why would he not use the spell to go back and place a few contingency spells on his past self and any discernable ancestors. It dosent even have to be anything special, how about a trigger that if he drops below 0 hp it triggers a regeneration spell. Also throw in another trigger that would summon some big nasty creatures to protect him. He could do this with the brute force time regression like featured by this character. But if he used the spell, going back in time would doom him to destroying himself.
SoulGamit 12-03-05, 04:08 PM	As for synchronicity + metamind + affinity field, yes there is a way to stop this. Apparently, one can have more than one readied actions at a time, but once one of them triggers all of the others are foregone. This rebuke was given to me when I presented my original build on the "fall of pun-pun" thread. Apparently, synchronicity isn't as broken as everyone makes it out to be. Talk to DisposableHero_ or Cvazi for a better refutation of the Synchronicity problem... I still don't quite get how it all works (which is why I ended up avoiding it completely in the end). That doesn't stop it from working. Pun-Pun Clone: *casts affinity field, and then synchonicity* Now both the clone and pun-pun have an unspecified readied action. Pun-pun does what he wants, and after that resolves the clone casts synchronicity again, giving both him and pun-pun another readied action, then they repeat this process indefinitely. At no time does either of them have more then one readied action. Also, quickened enlarged affinity field DRASTICALLY reduces the time needed to fill the multi-verse, since every clone would split would create not two clones, but several thousand clones at once. If you allow the newly split pun-puns who's origonal hasn't made an action yet, then it gets even more rediculess. Also, each of these clones can also use synchronicity to grant themselves a LOT of readied actions, and pun-pun can literally keep a bunch of readied actions from the clones stored up to prevent anything that might happen. Also, he can freely change his size, he he might start out replicating as fine creatures (which would mean that tens of thousands of clones replicate at once) and then he can, as a swift action, use giant size to turn them all into collossal creatures, reducing the number of clones needed to fill the multiverse. That said, this arguement doesn't really matter I guess since this thread assumes that your character and his cohort exists (a big assumption, IMO). Here's one that may matter, however. The dwoemkeeper requires divine spellcasting to be qualified for, correct? Were does it get divine spells if there are no gods to grant them and all sources of divine magic have been?
Patashu 12-03-05, 04:09 PM	[EDIT]: I will now attempt to prove that I can evade pun-pun's deific omniscience ASSUMPTION: To be on the Astral Plane is to be outside the stream of time. Couldn't Pun-Pun just place a clone of himself (with the NI spot and listen and reach and all that) on the astral plane as one of his first actions after getting his NI stats?
Prominence 12-03-05, 04:18 PM	Dragonlance has an artifact that can allow someone to travel through time. Is there a reason pun-pun can't use that?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-03-05, 04:35 PM	That doesn't stop it from working. Pun-Pun Clone: *casts affinity field, and then synchonicity* Now both the clone and pun-pun have an unspecified readied action. Pun-pun does what he wants, and after that resolves the clone casts synchronicity again, giving both him and pun-pun another readied action, then they repeat this process indefinitely. At no time does either of them have more then one readied action. Also, quickened enlarged affinity field DRASTICALLY reduces the time needed to fill the multi-verse, since every clone would split would create not two clones, but several thousand clones at once. If you allow the newly split pun-puns who's origonal hasn't made an action yet, then it gets even more rediculess. Also, each of these clones can also use synchronicity to grant themselves a LOT of readied actions, and pun-pun can literally keep a bunch of readied actions from the clones stored up to prevent anything that might happen. Also, he can freely change his size, he he might start out replicating as fine creatures (which would mean that tens of thousands of clones replicate at once) and then he can, as a swift action, use giant size to turn them all into collossal creatures, reducing the number of clones needed to fill the multiverse. That said, this arguement doesn't really matter I guess since this thread assumes that your character and his cohort exists (a big assumption, IMO). Here's one that may matter, however. The dwoemkeeper requires divine spellcasting to be qualified for, correct? Were does it get divine spells if there are no gods to grant them and all sources of divine magic have been? Ok, the point is conceded. Pun-Pun could probably fill a given infinite plane rather quickly. But the funny thing about infinity is the fact that it is unattainable if you must move incrementally towards it. (This is a result of the completeness of the Real Number Line.) So, no matter how fast, how huge, or how many Pun-Puns there are he will never fill the multiverse in a single millenia. I won't get into an argument of whether or not synchronicity works or not; it's not my area of expertise. As to the assumption that I exist in the first place. This assumption has to do with the infinite nature of the material, ethereal, shadow, astral, elemental, and a few other planes. If it is possible for a character to exist (which is the fundamental premise of D&D) then I will exist. So, this is not a big assumption at all, it is the assumption of any D&D game. This same assumption must also be applied to Pun-Pun. As for divine spells... The dweomerkeeper may have qualified through ur-priest, which STEALS the spells from the gods. Note that although pun-pun is an overdiety, it was not assumed that he destroyed the pantheon. So other gods may still grant the dweomerkeeper spells. Furthermore, one could obtain the item through a wish granted by an efreet if push comes to shove. To answer all your questions on "what if pun-pun did this with NI ability on an infinite plane?" I need only say that NI does not equal Infinity. Thus, one could still escape pun-pun's NI ability.
SoulGamit 12-03-05, 04:41 PM	Again, were is it stated that the multi-verse is infinite? Or is that another assumption? Also, as I said, the whole astral plane thing is self-contradicting. First you say your outside time, and then you say you can go to the past while outside time, even though the "past" doesn't exist as far as your concerned. Also, if you use that power, you still wouldn't leave the astral plane and therefore you'd still be outside time, the material plane would be uneffected. Finnally, if your using the fact that your outside pun-pun's reach on the astral plane, then I must ask you, how is he within yours? While he isn't truely infinite (and that's even debatable) does know more then your character so how could your character know about pun-pun before pun-pun knows about you?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-03-05, 04:58 PM	The fact that the multiverse is infinite is a well known and documented thing. Please refer to page 148 of the DMG under Planar Size and Shape: "Planes come in a variety of sizes and shapes. Most planes (including all of those in the D&D cosmology) are infinite, or at least so large that they may as well be infinite.") Does that answer your question? Now, for the Astral Plane trick: Under the description of the plane it is described as "timeless." It also goes so far as to say that the effects of time do not exist in this plane. This lends to the belief that time does not flow on the Astral plane and that is thus seperate from the time stream. **Assuming that the Astral Plane is indeed a "null-timestream" (This is debatable)** What I use the astral plane for: Going to the astral plane removes me from the time stream and renders me immune to the passing of time. Thus if pun-pun were to re-write history it wouldn't have any affect on the astral plane. Since I was born before Pun-Pun, he cannot use my technique to erase me from the multiverse. Also, since items manufactured on the astral plane have no initial time to claim as their starting point, I can travel back in time with them without worrying about them being undone. I don't see any contradictions there... but if you would be so kind as to point them out more explicitly then we can hash them out. Also I've never said that one could move back in time while on the Astral plane... If I did, then I concede that is wrong.
Khan the Destroyer 12-03-05, 05:55 PM	Here is my build that I presented in the very cluttered "fall of pun-pun" thread. Due to the scatter-brained nature of that thread I've decided to move my build to a new thread so that my challenge may be critiqued without distraction. Without further ado I give you all: "Back to the Future." Very impressive TG. I am finding that trying to defend Pun-Pun is more mind-numbing than creating him was :). Killing Pun-Pun: And now the moment we've all been waiting for: the death of Pun-Pun. We find Pun-Pun one millenia earlier as an ECL 2 kobold. We use psionic dominate to solicit the help of 3 local commoners and order them to attack Pun-Pun. Pun-Pun eventually dies at the hand of a level one commoner, the ultimate irony. Unfortunately , this isn't the case. If the Divine Minion is being used, Pun-Pun can Wildshape into an animal, and is a 1st level wizard with a viper familiar. If the Psion is being used, then Pun-Pun is a level 2 Egoist. In either case, those average commoners will find it tough to hit Pun-Pun, since they get about +0 to attack, and an average Kobold's AC is 13 unarmored, let alone with Inertial Armor/Mage Armor/Thicken Skin/etc. Chances are he will kill the commoners. And then try and run from your Killer from the Future :). 1. Does the time regression trick actually work? Yeah it does. I agree that it allows you to relive each moment since you were born, given enough experience points and power points (which you account for). However, you get to act again. You are not standing beside yourself, you are turning the clock back. So, let's say that you go back in time to the point where your party deals the killing blow on a Balor and you level. Instead of attacking the Balor, you continue manifesting Time Regression. Without your aid, your party may very well die, or have to retreat, and you do not defeat the Balor. Would you keep the XP? How in fact do you ever reach your current level if you go back and actually do nothing in your career but manifest this power? You quote the portion of the power you feel is the enabling text. I take it to mean that you can do something like this: 'Wait. Don't touch that door. It is trapped with a device you failed to uncover and will kill you if you activate it. I know because I just lived it and travelled back to warn you.' As opposed to: 'We just defeated the Tarrasque and levelled. Now, I'll go back in time with my new level and never fight the Tarrasque. It may technically survive now, and I have this experience for technically doing nothing.' 2. Wouldn't Pun-Pun sense the event of his own destruction NI weeks in the past? This is a strange time-paradoxical question. Pun-Pun would not sense the event until it happened, which is in the past, but if it happened in the past then Pun-Pun does not exist. So basically what I've done is erased Pun-Pun from the time stream. Essentially Pun-Pun is doomed to never exist. Last I checked you cannot sense an event that utterly erases your existance. It's a strange time paradox that I have only partially grappled with mentally. Feel free to discuss this. Pun-Pun's portfolio sense extends 5,256,000,000 weeks in to the past and future (by your calculations, which are most likely low due to infinite actions and synchronicity/affinity field abuse). Based on your original method of killing Pun-Pun (which I'm sure you'll most likely change due to the fact that commoners will not so easily kill Pun-Pun even as a little kobold), Pun-Pun will sense the combat. In the rounds of combat that he is attacked but no killed, Uber Pun-Pun can react and save himself in the past (I'll explain how below). 3. Don't you lose levels when you go so far back in time?: I don't think so because the flavor text in Time Regression states that you retain all the knowledge of the future and are able to act upon it. I translate this to mean that I also retain my experience. This is debateable. Conceivably, one could say that they simply have had their same level of experience and levels for over a millenia and that back tracking a millenia would not incur level loss. I do not understand how you can take back all of your actions and never actually fight anything and still retain your XP and levels. 4. What if Pun-Pun thinks of this first and travels back in time?: Here I hope to be protected by the grandfather clause paradox. If I am older than Pun-Pun I could travel back further than Pun-Pun could before I would cease to exist. Hence my assumption at the very beginning of this post. I am also assuming that one cannot travel back further in time than one's birth. A fair assumption I think. This is where I believe Pun-Pun can stop anyone trying to kill him in the past. Assuming that Pun-Pun will go to 'great' (relatively speaking) lengths to ensure his survival, he will think of any conceivable way to protect himself. With nigh infinite mental scores, this will include protecting himself from being killed in the past. I agree that with Time Regression, Pun-Pun most likely cannot travel farther than his birth. But what he can do is find someone older than him and Mind Seed him. That older person, who is now mentally Pun-Pun will be the target of Manipulate Form to basically rival Pun-Pun in power. Pun-Pun will 'infect' the Mind Seeded guy with a Necrotic Cyst and use Necrotic Tumor on him. The guy will fail his saving throw (since Pun-Pun can power up after using Mind Seed, he will always be stronger than his mental 'clone'). Once he fails his saving throw, he is forever under the control of Pun-Pun. This affect isn't mind-affecting, so Pun-Pun isn't automatically immune to it. The Mind Seeded guy will use his powers to travel back in time via Time Regression and protect Pun-Pun in the past. Since I know of no way to defeat Pun-Pun after he powers up, I don't see how anyone can get past him to kill 'I'm still weak Pun-Pun'. Since the only way for a contender to go back in time and kill Pun-Pun is to know of him after he already achieves supremity, Pun-Pun will be able to go back in time first, since it would be one of the first things he did to ensure his existence. 5. Wouldn't your items made in the future disappear once you landed at a time before they were made? Yeah, this could be a problem, as this build is obviously item dependant. There are two potential solutions: this item could have been made by a cohort that I had well before I intended to go back in time, with the intention that I would want to go back in time in the future. Another, more iffy solution, is I could keep the item in a jar of quintessence. Every round I pull the psi-crown out of the jar and use it. When I move back in time the psi-crown in quintessence should still be there because it has been removed from the time stream. If I had pulled it out in a future round it would be there in the past round because it was removed from the time stream in the future not the past. Thus every round I remove the psi-crown and every round I activate it to find that the jar is there the next round. Trippy ain't it? I don't plan on touching this :). 6. Wouldn't Pun-Pun sense the fact that the thought to kill Pun-Pun crossed your mind?: Yes, if Pun-Pun were somehow able to gain the "Omniscient" portfolio then he would know the thoughts of everyone. Even if I removed the thought from my brain he would know it. The solution? Don't have the thought while Pun-Pun is in power. We then sincerely desire to travel back in time to save our friend. While in the past, we have all of the knowledge of the future and remember that "hey, that stupid kobold named Pun-Pun really messed things up, while I'm back here I should take him out." Since we are back before Pun-Pun was born the future Pun-Pun can do nothing to stop me. In the past I then discover who Pun-Pun's parents were and kill them. Problem solved. Pun-Pun was never born. It's like "double-think" in the book 1984, where they erase the past. Pun-Pun would wonder why you have to go back in time to save your friend when a simple spell could do it and save all of that wasted effort for nothing. But another method is for Pun-Pun to duplicate himself. He then strips himself of Divinity and asks his Duplicate to use his Know Death SDA on him. If Pun-Pun is going to die, the duplicate will know, and Pun-Pun will restore himself with infinite divinity and stop himself from being killed. 7. What about Teleport Through Time?: This spell is the bane of Pun-Pun because it contains a clause that legalizes DM fiat. If the DM gets to choose what will be the effect of Pun-Pun traveling through time then this intellectual argument degrades into "what the average DM would rule." Also, I am of the opinion that every DM, given the chance to destroy Pun-Pun, would take it. I'll read the spell. 8. What about an Artifact that does XXX?: Artifacts cannot be bought, nor can they be made. So I don't think we can assume that any one person will possess them. It is widely known that the acquisition of an Artifact is generally the result of a quest, making it DM Fiat. Pun-Pun can make artifacts with his Salient Divine Ability 'Create Artifact'. We can assume that Pun-Pun will have them and that they can do pretty much whatever he wants them to :). Cheesy? Yeah. But still within his powers. Likewise, he can research any spells or powers thanks to his SDA's. Since Pun-Pun can know how he will die as soon as he becomes powerful, and he can take measures to prevent it from happening as soon as he becomes powerful, I don't think this will work. Although I am enjoying the crazy stuff people are pulling :). Any thoughts?
PhaedrusXY 12-03-05, 06:48 PM	Is this character's name Brian Boitano?
Seerow 12-03-05, 07:23 PM	But another method is for Pun-Pun to duplicate himself. He then strips himself of Divinity and asks his Duplicate to use his Know Death SDA on him. If Pun-Pun is going to die, the duplicate will know, and Pun-Pun will restore himself with infinite divinity and stop himself from being killed. In this instant with no Divinity, the Gods strike this menace who has been plaguing them for 1000 years. Now they just have a clone whom is completely obedient to a now dead master. I have no idea as to the rules of Mindseed or Necrotic Tumor, so I have no idea what happens to this clone. But Id assume it dies.
Gloverboy 12-03-05, 07:57 PM	Just a quick question. You've established, with the grandfather clause, that Pun Pun can't go back as far as you can. But, couldn't he outrun you? If at any point, you start this trick with the intention to kill him, he will know, even if you hide the idea later. And he definitely has more actions to do this with. He could theoretically do this faster, go back in time farther than you do. when you catch up to him, he does his thing.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-03-05, 08:03 PM	Wow... quite a nice rebuttal... and it may take a while for me to fully refute it. I will enumerate your quote and give my response to each numeral. Very impressive TG. I am finding that trying to defend Pun-Pun is more mind-numbing than creating him was :). 1.) Unfortunately , this isn't the case. If the Divine Minion is being used, Pun-Pun can Wildshape into an animal, and is a 1st level wizard with a viper familiar. If the Psion is being used, then Pun-Pun is a level 2 Egoist. In either case, those average commoners will find it tough to hit Pun-Pun, since they get about +0 to attack, and an average Kobold's AC is 13 unarmored, let alone with Inertial Armor/Mage Armor/Thicken Skin/etc. Chances are he will kill the commoners. And then try and run from your Killer from the Future :). 2.) I agree that it allows you to relive each moment since you were born, given enough experience points and power points (which you account for). However, you get to act again. You are not standing beside yourself, you are turning the clock back. So, let's say that you go back in time to the point where your party deals the killing blow on a Balor and you level. Instead of attacking the Balor, you continue manifesting Time Regression. Without your aid, your party may very well die, or have to retreat, and you do not defeat the Balor. Would you keep the XP? How in fact do you ever reach your current level if you go back and actually do nothing in your career but manifest this power? You quote the portion of the power you feel is the enabling text. I take it to mean that you can do something like this: 'Wait. Don't touch that door. It is trapped with a device you failed to uncover and will kill you if you activate it. I know because I just lived it and travelled back to warn you.' As opposed to: 'We just defeated the Tarrasque and levelled. Now, I'll go back in time with my new level and never fight the Tarrasque. It may technically survive now, and I have this experience for technically doing nothing.' 3.) Pun-Pun's portfolio sense extends 5,256,000,000 weeks in to the past and future (by your calculations, which are most likely low due to infinite actions and synchronicity/affinity field abuse). Based on your original method of killing Pun-Pun (which I'm sure you'll most likely change due to the fact that commoners will not so easily kill Pun-Pun even as a little kobold), Pun-Pun will sense the combat. In the rounds of combat that he is attacked but no killed, Uber Pun-Pun can react and save himself in the past (I'll explain how below). I do not understand how you can take back all of your actions and never actually fight anything and still retain your XP and levels. 4.) This is where I believe Pun-Pun can stop anyone trying to kill him in the past. Assuming that Pun-Pun will go to 'great' (relatively speaking) lengths to ensure his survival, he will think of any conceivable way to protect himself. With nigh infinite mental scores, this will include protecting himself from being killed in the past. I agree that with Time Regression, Pun-Pun most likely cannot travel farther than his birth. But what he can do is find someone older than him and Mind Seed him. That older person, who is now mentally Pun-Pun will be the target of Manipulate Form to basically rival Pun-Pun in power. Pun-Pun will 'infect' the Mind Seeded guy with a Necrotic Cyst and use Necrotic Tumor on him. The guy will fail his saving throw (since Pun-Pun can power up after using Mind Seed, he will always be stronger than his mental 'clone'). Once he fails his saving throw, he is forever under the control of Pun-Pun. This affect isn't mind-affecting, so Pun-Pun isn't automatically immune to it. The Mind Seeded guy will use his powers to travel back in time via Time Regression and protect Pun-Pun in the past. Since I know of no way to defeat Pun-Pun after he powers up, I don't see how anyone can get past him to kill 'I'm still weak Pun-Pun'. Since the only way for a contender to go back in time and kill Pun-Pun is to know of him after he already achieves supremity, Pun-Pun will be able to go back in time first, since it would be one of the first things he did to ensure his existence. I don't plan on touching this :). Pun-Pun would wonder why you have to go back in time to save your friend when a simple spell could do it and save all of that wasted effort for nothing. But another method is for Pun-Pun to duplicate himself. He then strips himself of Divinity and asks his Duplicate to use his Know Death SDA on him. If Pun-Pun is going to die, the duplicate will know, and Pun-Pun will restore himself with infinite divinity and stop himself from being killed. I'll read the spell. 5.) Pun-Pun can make artifacts with his Salient Divine Ability 'Create Artifact'. We can assume that Pun-Pun will have them and that they can do pretty much whatever he wants them to :). Cheesy? Yeah. But still within his powers. Likewise, he can research any spells or powers thanks to his SDA's. Since Pun-Pun can know how he will die as soon as he becomes powerful, and he can take measures to prevent it from happening as soon as he becomes powerful, I don't think this will work. Although I am enjoying the crazy stuff people are pulling :). Any thoughts? 1.) Yeah, the method of killing Pun-Pun needn't be with commoners when he's a ECL 2 Kobold. My new favorite method involves going back in time, erasing the future as I go BEYOND the point of Pun-Pun's birth and then kill his ancestors with commoners. Would Pun-Pun sense the death of his ancestors? No. Would Pun-Pun be able to sense anything regarding his own death No. Allow me to illuminate a new theory that crossed my mind that justifies this line of thought. If pun-pun were sensing into the past that he is dead then he would already be dead. If Pun-Pun senses into the future he would see that he ceases to exist, but not by any event that happened in the future. By this line of logic Pun-Pun can never sense his own destruction or the source of it. This is a rather radical theory, and I'm not sure if it is viable, so feel free to rip it apart if you can. 2.)I'm not exactly sure if one would lose XP or not now that you present it in this fashion. Unfortunately this poses a bit of a problem, but I will stand by my old solution. The psion needs only have 17th ML to activate the time-traveling device. It is conceivable that he achieved 17th level before Pun-Pun was born. Thus even if he loses XP as he travels back in time it has little to no effect on the functionality of this build. 3.)I'll think about this one... for now see my new theory given in number 1. The theory solves this problem. 4.)An interesting method of protection to be sure. But wholly fatal to Pun-Pun himself. This new powerful creature that Pun-Pun would create and send back in time to protect his ancestoral line would move to a point in history before Pun-Pun existed and the domination effect would be moot, as the dominate spell does not specify that it extends back into the past as well as its duration in the future. If you don't like that justification then I could say that the caster ceases to exist at a certain point in history and thus would not be subject to the domination effect of the caster (similar to if the caster had died). Either way, we now have a powerful creature that can rival Pun-Pun and usurp his throne, something that Pun-Pun is trying to prevent. 5.) Ok, given. Pun-Pun could create an artifact. Due to the unique nature of artifact creation however, I think this still falls under DM fiat. Unless of course they give rules for the creation of specific artifact abilities. (I haven't seen these rules... if they exist let me know).
SoulGamit 12-03-05, 08:10 PM	I agree that with Time Regression, Pun-Pun most likely cannot travel farther than his birth. But what he can do is find someone older than him and Mind Seed him. That older person, who is now mentally Pun-Pun will be the target of Manipulate Form to basically rival Pun-Pun in power. Pun-Pun will 'infect' the Mind Seeded guy with a Necrotic Cyst and use Necrotic Tumor on him. The guy will fail his saving throw (since Pun-Pun can power up after using Mind Seed, he will always be stronger than his mental 'clone'). Once he fails his saving throw, he is forever under the control of Pun-Pun. This affect isn't mind-affecting, so Pun-Pun isn't automatically immune to it. The Mind Seeded guy will use his powers to travel back in time via Time Regression and protect Pun-Pun in the past. Since I know of no way to defeat Pun-Pun after he powers up, I don't see how anyone can get past him to kill 'I'm still weak Pun-Pun'. This wouldn't work, since time regression undoes everything that happened so he'd no longer be controlled after using it. However, since time regression also strips pun-pun of power, I really think him not paying attention to time regression's use really far fetched. EDIT: Bleh, was beaten to the punch Would Pun-Pun sense the death of his ancestors? No. Would Pun-Pun be able to sense anything regarding his own death No. Allow me to illuminate a new theory that crossed my mind that justifies this line of thought. If pun-pun were sensing into the past that he is dead then he would already be dead. If Pun-Pun senses into the future he would see that he ceases to exist, but not by any event that happened in the future. By this line of logic Pun-Pun can never sense his own destruction or the source of it. This is a rather radical theory, and I'm not sure if it is viable, so feel free to rip it apart if you can. He isn't sensing his death, he can, however, sense an attempt on his life and sense that he would stop that attempt and that it would fail.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-03-05, 08:14 PM	This wouldn't work, since time regression undoes everything that happened so he'd no longer be controlled after using it. However, since time regression also strips pun-pun of power, I really think him not paying attention to time regression's use really far fetched. The point is conceded. I should probably update my original post, but I won't do so until I find a satisfactory solution. Feel free to explore my latest theory on avoiding the gaze of Pun-Pun. (outlined in the first numeral of my rebuttal to Khan the Destroyer's Post). It's pretty crazy, but it might work. [Edit: in response to your edit] No attempt was made on pun-pun's life in the future. In fact no action was taken against him until he is destroyed. If the plotting took place on the Astral Plane and the psion traveled to the material plane and started reversing time Pun-Pun is screwed. Pun-Pun would not know that he is re-living the past because only the manifester remembers the future. Once the cycle has started, pun-pun is oblivious to his doom. To protect the psion in the brief moment of time whilst he is enroute to a plane that is in the timestream he could activate the SDA divine shield, which protects him from any remote sensing pun-pun possesses (regardless of how powerful pun-pun is). Of course this would require that my psion now has at least divine rank 1... but that's not out of the question either.
Kidthulu 12-03-05, 08:15 PM	Whoops the god Billy(who is god of all that is unnessasary) sees this coming because he can predict the future...before punpun even starts he is teleported and randomly trips into a mindflayer pool therefore ending naything before it begins and feeding those poor hungry mindflayers. (tentcale brain hentai)
Khan the Destroyer 12-03-05, 08:24 PM	I'll post my rebuttal later tonight. This is fun :).
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-03-05, 09:16 PM	Here's my revised time-evasion theory. If pun-pun were to search back in history in an attempt to find someone who would take his life in the fashion I present he would find no such person. This is because he would not exist if such an event already occurred. If pun-pun were to scan the future for someone who would attempt to pull my stunt he would find no such person. This is because if someone were to pull my stunt in the future, the future itself would be different than pun-pun perceives it in the present. Once any given psion begins a time-regression sequence pun-pun is powerless to stop it. This is because pun-pun will be unaware that time is going backwards. The power description clearly words that the only person who retains the knowledge of the future is the manifestor. So, to pun-pun everything is perfectly normal and no-one is attempting to kill him. What pun-pun could do is find someone who thinks or speaks or indicates that they wish to preform the stunt I outline. This is now the real problem. Once the plan is hatched the psion is doomed unless he can act on it before pun-pun can kill him. Of course pun-pun always acts first and so the psion is slain. Thus we need to find a way to defeat the remote sensing of pun-pun in order that we may think of a way to kill him. The solution? Divine Shield. This increases the requirement of my build by 1 divine rank, but as pun-pun has demonstrated, obtaining divine ranks aren't all that hard. Assuming our psion has 1 divine rank and has the divine shield SDA, he can have the effect continually on his person and be protected completely from pun-pun's remote sensing. This protection is not opposable by a higher divine rank, it's simply a warding against remote sensing (among other things, but those aren't related to the argument). Once the plan is hatched, the psion acts immediately upon it, realizing its importance. The rest is... history. To justify the moment of clarity felt by the psion I could conceivably pull the stunt that LoP pulls and gain an infinite knowledge check.
SoulGamit 12-03-05, 10:04 PM	This is now the real problem. Once the plan is hatched the psion is doomed unless he can act on it before pun-pun can kill him. Of course pun-pun always acts first and so the psion is slain. Thus we need to find a way to defeat the remote sensing of pun-pun in order that we may think of a way to kill him. The solution? Divine Shield. This increases the requirement of my build by 1 divine rank, but as pun-pun has demonstrated, obtaining divine ranks aren't all that hard. Assuming our psion has 1 divine rank and has the divine shield SDA, he can have the effect continually on his person and be protected completely from pun-pun's remote sensing. This protection is not opposable by a higher divine rank, it's simply a warding against remote sensing (among other things, but those aren't related to the argument). Once the plan is hatched, the psion acts immediately upon it, realizing its importance. The rest is... history. To justify the moment of clarity felt by the psion I could conceivably pull the stunt that LoP pulls and gain an infinite knowledge check. I thought one needed ice assassin (which psions don't have) to achieve divine rank, or do you have another method? Also, what is your excuse for actually achieving divine rank without pun-pun's knowledge (I assume your going with the astral plane thing again?). Having an infinite knowledge check does not = divine ranks. The point is conceded. I should probably update my original post, but I won't do so until I find a satisfactory solution. Feel free to explore my latest theory on avoiding the gaze of Pun-Pun. (outlined in the first numeral of my rebuttal to Khan the Destroyer's Post). It's pretty crazy, but it might work. Eh... you conceded what point? I refuted khan's post, not yours (though if I did refute something... cool ^_^).
Blade2718 12-03-05, 10:45 PM	Well, according to the teleport through time spell, disruptions in the time line are smoothed out. So while you go back in time to kill Pun-Pun, your actions might simply cause the rise of another similar kobold named Pu-Pu.
Prominence 12-03-05, 10:57 PM	If pun-pun had a craft contingency : everything on the phrase "If someone tries to activate a time manipulating effect.."? Since punpun can see, reach, and sense everything everywhere, you would be caught as soon as you attempt to regress. Pun-pun can keep this up at all times, since he has infinite actions and can continually re-active it if someone casts a silly timestop. Really, contingency throws a whole monkey wrench into any attempt to kill pun-pun, since he has NI of them, set to any circumstance he can think of with NI knowledge checks.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-03-05, 11:36 PM	I thought one needed ice assassin (which psions don't have) to achieve divine rank, or do you have another method? Also, what is your excuse for actually achieving divine rank without pun-pun's knowledge (I assume your going with the astral plane thing again?). Having an infinite knowledge check does not = divine ranks. Eh... you conceded what point? I refuted khan's post, not yours (though if I did refute something... cool ^_^). Yeah, I would get the divine ranks via ice-assassin. Just have an NPC cast it for me or something. It doesn't matter, this build isn't bound by 20 levels or anything. The point I conceded was that manifestation of time regression would indeed provoke pun-pun's wrath. Evading this detection is the last and final thing that I need to make this build work. If I can find a way to make my manifestations invisible to pun-pun, then I will win this battle. To answer the problem of contingency... all I need to do is escape pun-pun's sphere of influence. This is a bit of a stopping block for me, but the current plan is to start teleporting on an infinite plane for a really long time. I'm not sure if this will be sufficient yet or not. Let me think on it a while longer. I would appreciate any ideas you could give me... I know this board loves to rip down uber builds, but throw me a bone here. I'm trying to rip down the most uber build ever.
Patashu 12-04-05, 01:40 AM	I wonder... If the objects in the Astral Plane are considered to exist at any point in time and thus have no sense of time at all, how come when returning from the Astral to the Material Plane you'll always come back in the same time you left in? If you're born on the Astral Plane and enter the Material Plane, what time will it be?
Prominence 12-04-05, 01:40 AM	actually, that still doesn't evade ALL the possibilities of contingencies, the one I posted would be circumvented before you went back in time if you are undetected, but as pun-pun can create effects that span into the past, he could feasibly set up contingencies on any part of history, so as long as you so much as even go near pun-pun, or anything that would adversely effect him, you would theoretically run into one of his contingency spells - which can then really let him do anything.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-04-05, 02:00 AM	actually, that still doesn't evade ALL the possibilities of contingencies, the one I posted would be circumvented before you went back in time if you are undetected, but as pun-pun can create effects that span into the past, he could feasibly set up contingencies on any part of history, so as long as you so much as even go near pun-pun, or anything that would adversely effect him, you would theoretically run into one of his contingency spells - which can then really let him do anything. Pah! Show me the rules for setting up contingent spells in the past. If they don't exist it cannot be done. Also, any thing that happens in the past or in the future will be rewritten by this power.
Lokiyn 12-04-05, 02:49 AM	Pah! Show me the rules for setting up contingent spells in the past. If they don't exist it cannot be done. Also, any thing that happens in the past or in the future will be rewritten by this power. In other words Pun Pun goes back in time and slides the strongest contingency onto baby pun pun for protection from time travellers
Khan the Destroyer 12-04-05, 05:13 AM	In this instant with no Divinity, the Gods strike this menace who has been plaguing them for 1000 years. What makes you think that the gods can kill Pun-Pun if he has no divine ranks? He can still be immune to the most relevant SDA's (Life and Death, Divine Blast, Divine Splendor) and he still has nigh infinite abilities to stomp them with. Further, he can duplicate himself a trillion times over before he strips himself of divinity and have his duplicates block the remote sensing abilities of every other deity as well as protect him if any other deity somehow manages to find out he is wherever, without ranks. Now they just have a clone whom is completely obedient to a now dead master. I have no idea as to the rules of Mindseed or Necrotic Tumor, so I have no idea what happens to this clone. But Id assume it dies. No. Because Pun-Pun never dies. 1.) Yeah, the method of killing Pun-Pun needn't be with commoners when he's a ECL 2 Kobold. My new favorite method involves going back in time, erasing the future as I go BEYOND the point of Pun-Pun's birth and then kill his ancestors with commoners. Would Pun-Pun sense the death of his ancestors? No. Would Pun-Pun be able to sense anything regarding his own death No. Allow me to illuminate a new theory that crossed my mind that justifies this line of thought. If pun-pun were sensing into the past that he is dead then he would already be dead. If Pun-Pun senses into the future he would see that he ceases to exist, but not by any event that happened in the future. By this line of logic Pun-Pun can never sense his own destruction or the source of it. This is a rather radical theory, and I'm not sure if it is viable, so feel free to rip it apart if you can. The Portfolio Senses are not solely limited to death. Even if Pun-Pun's portfolio only involved him, it would be enough to sense the attack on his ancestors. This is because the attack on his ancestors does affect Pun-Pun. He would die if they die. Once he senses the event, the Deities and Demigods book says he can use his Remote Sensing ability to see the event. 2.)I'm not exactly sure if one would lose XP or not now that you present it in this fashion. Unfortunately this poses a bit of a problem, but I will stand by my old solution. The psion needs only have 17th ML to activate the time-traveling device. It is conceivable that he achieved 17th level before Pun-Pun was born. Thus even if he loses XP as he travels back in time it has little to no effect on the functionality of this build. So, we are assuming the character was born before Pun-Pun and he is level 17 before Pun-Pun is born? Ok, it makes sense. 3.)I'll think about this one... for now see my new theory given in number 1. The theory solves this problem. Except that the theory in your first premise is based on assumptions made about time travel and paradoxes. These things we do not even comprehend now in real life. And the game certainly doesn't explain it. The rules do say that Pun-Pun would know of the event N weeks before it happened. Your assumption that messing with time necessarily changes that is only an assumption. And I think contrary to the rules. If I remember reading that Travel Through Time spell, anything done in the past that may change the future causes a series of events to ensure that the future doesn't change. If that is the stance that the rules take, wouldn't that stop any attempt of killing Pun-Pun (or anyone for that matter) in the past? Further, should we assume that changing something in the past changes the future? What stance does the game take on this? If none (I haven't read the spell in a while) why assume one over the other? 4.)An interesting method of protection to be sure. But wholly fatal to Pun-Pun himself. This new powerful creature that Pun-Pun would create and send back in time to protect his ancestoral line would move to a point in history before Pun-Pun existed and the domination effect would be moot, as the dominate spell does not specify that it extends back into the past as well as its duration in the future. If you don't like that justification then I could say that the caster ceases to exist at a certain point in history and thus would not be subject to the domination effect of the caster (similar to if the caster had died). Either way, we now have a powerful creature that can rival Pun-Pun and usurp his throne, something that Pun-Pun is trying to prevent. The duration of the spell is permanent if the target fails its saving throw. There is no reason to assume that using Time Regression somehow makes it wear off. Nothing is needed to maintain the spell, so I do not see why the death of Pun-Pun (or lack of existence) would fizzle the spell. These both sound like assumptions. Are there references in the rules to point that these may be the case? And in case it is relevant, Pun-Pun is not using Dominate, but Necrotic Tumor in Libris Mortis. 5.) Ok, given. Pun-Pun could create an artifact. Due to the unique nature of artifact creation however, I think this still falls under DM fiat. Unless of course they give rules for the creation of specific artifact abilities. (I haven't seen these rules... if they exist let me know). The Deities and Demigods book defers us to the Epic Level Handbook. Basically, it says to use the rules for creating epic level itesm when creating artifacts (since they are essentially the same). So, it isn't really DM fiat. Technically, Pun-Pun can stop anyone from hurting him ever with a single spell or power or ability. This is because he can research any power or spell, and grant himself any Su, Sp, Ex ability with Manipulate Form. No limit is given, meaning the sky is the limit. I realize that this is cheesy of course, and do not intend on applying it, but I thought I would give it a mention. Pun-Pun doesn't need DM fiat because he can already do anything. I would also like to add in response to SoulGamit that Time Regression isn't needed for Pun-Pun to go back in time. Pun-Pun can apply a time trait to his goldy realm. This can be 'each round on my godly plane is -1000 years on the material plane'. Basically, Pun-Pun would step into his plane and go back in time 100 years (or however many he needed). This is sufficient to ensure that no one harms him in the past. Especially since he isn't restricted by Time Regression, Pun-Pun can travel back in time indefinately. If pun-pun were to search back in history in an attempt to find someone who would take his life in the fashion I present he would find no such person. This is because he would not exist if such an event already occurred. Pun-Pun doesn't need to search through history. The SDA Know Death is all he needs to know how he will die. If he will not die, it tells him that. If he will die, it tells him how. He then uses his powers to prevent it from happening. Once any given psion begins a time-regression sequence pun-pun is powerless to stop it. This is because pun-pun will be unaware that time is going backwards. The power description clearly words that the only person who retains the knowledge of the future is the manifestor. So, to pun-pun everything is perfectly normal and no-one is attempting to kill him. This is assuming that the psion goes back before Pun-Pun. If Pun-Pun exists in the future for the Psion to decide to kill him after he travels back through time, then Pun-Pun would have already taken the steps to protect himself in the past. The psion has to strike at Pun-Pun before he becomes NI.
CappyTheMule 12-04-05, 08:03 AM	Pun-Pun doesn't need to search through history. The SDA Know Death is all he needs to know how he will die. If he will not die, it tells him that. If he will die, it tells him how. He then uses his powers to prevent it from happening. Actually, Pun-pun won't die- he already has died. But it's a moot point. In all actuality I don't think Pun-pun is up to much really. If pun-pun is omniscient, then pun-pun must have considered everything he could ever do, and the consequences thereof, and having done that, pun-pun has lived in his head an infinite amount of lifetimes for an infinite amount of lengths in an infinite number of timestreams, and has therefore experienced (or is experiencing) everything. And with conceivably an infinite number of courses of action to take of equal merit, I think you'd be stuck like a dog between two bowls of food spaced equally apart. You'd be screwed, a la TS Eliot. "And indeed there will be time For the yellow smoke that slides along the street, Rubbing its back upon the window-panes; There will be time, there will be time To prepare a face to meet the faces that you meet; There will be time to murder and create, And time for all the works and days of hands That lift and drop a question on your plate; Time for you and time for me, And time yet for a hundred indecisions, And for a hundred visions and revisions, Before the taking of a toast and tea. In the room the women come and go Talking of Michelangelo. And indeed there will be time To wonder, "Do I dare?" and, "Do I dare?" Time to turn back and descend the stair, With a bald spot in the middle of my hair-- [They will say: "How his hair is growing thin!"] My morning coat, my collar mounting firmly to the chin, My necktie rich and modest, but asserted by a simple pin-- [They will say: "But how his arms and legs are thin!"] Do I dare Disturb the universe? In a minute there is time For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse. For I have known them all already, known them all:-- Have known the evenings, mornings, afternoons, I have measured out my life with coffee spoons; I know the voices dying with a dying fall Beneath the music from a farther room. So how should I presume?" I'm pretty sure that Pun-pun is sitting in a corner paralyzed and drooling like an opium addict. :P My point being, while talking about time and the infinite is fun and all, it's kinda pointless. Can pun-pun create a rock so big that pun pun couldn't lift it? If a pun-pun that can't stop moving runs into a pun-pun that can't be moved, what will happen? If we throw pun-pun in a box with no way to monitor him, is pun-pun alive or dead? Is he both then? Did I kill pun-pun? I don't know anymore. Maybe pun-pun knows...
Kidthulu 12-04-05, 08:39 AM	Actually, Pun-pun won't die- he already has died. But it's a moot point. In all actuality I don't think Pun-pun is up to much really. If pun-pun is omniscient, then pun-pun must have considered everything he could ever do, and the consequences thereof, and having done that, pun-pun has lived in his head an infinite amount of lifetimes for an infinite amount of lengths in an infinite number of timestreams, and has therefore experienced (or is experiencing) everything. And with conceivably an infinite number of courses of action to take of equal merit, I think you'd be stuck like a dog between two bowls of food spaced equally apart. You'd be screwed, a la TS Eliot. "And indeed there will be time For the yellow smoke that slides along the street, Rubbing its back upon the window-panes; There will be time, there will be time To prepare a face to meet the faces that you meet; There will be time to murder and create, And time for all the works and days of hands That lift and drop a question on your plate; Time for you and time for me, And time yet for a hundred indecisions, And for a hundred visions and revisions, Before the taking of a toast and tea. In the room the women come and go Talking of Michelangelo. And indeed there will be time To wonder, "Do I dare?" and, "Do I dare?" Time to turn back and descend the stair, With a bald spot in the middle of my hair-- [They will say: "How his hair is growing thin!"] My morning coat, my collar mounting firmly to the chin, My necktie rich and modest, but asserted by a simple pin-- [They will say: "But how his arms and legs are thin!"] Do I dare Disturb the universe? In a minute there is time For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse. For I have known them all already, known them all:-- Have known the evenings, mornings, afternoons, I have measured out my life with coffee spoons; I know the voices dying with a dying fall Beneath the music from a farther room. So how should I presume?" I'm pretty sure that Pun-pun is sitting in a corner paralyzed and drooling like an opium addict. :P My point being, while talking about time and the infinite is fun and all, it's kinda pointless. Can pun-pun create a rock so big that pun pun couldn't lift it? If a pun-pun that can't stop moving runs into a pun-pun that can't be moved, what will happen? If we throw pun-pun in a box with no way to monitor him, is pun-pun alive or dead? Is he both then? Did I kill pun-pun? I don't know anymore. Maybe pun-pun knows... I like your brains.....
Gloverboy 12-04-05, 09:39 PM	It's all nice and good for T.S. Elliot and ourselves to theorize the emotional effects of infinity, but that is all we can do, theorize. If anything, we could say that the final challenge for an infinite being is to secure his perch. And if Pun Pun could theorize such an attack, he could effectively defend against it. Pun Pun has to have a driven, ambitious nature to seek infinite power. But he's only all-powerful when he is %100 unkillable. He'd fortify himself on all possible fronts before succumbing to madness. (P.S. Even if someone killed Pun Pun, Orcus managed to come back for revenge, and he's only a Demon Lord. Surely Pun Pun could figure out how to rise from his dubious demise, to seek vengance.)
Khan the Destroyer 12-05-05, 01:05 AM	I'd like to reiterate my point that D&D does not have a definite stance concerning Temporal Paradoxes (that I know of anyways). This attempt on Pun-Pun's life is based on assumptions about time travel. Some have claimed that Pun-Pun could not know he was going to be killed in the past because we would already be dead if that were true. This assumes that you can change the future to reflect changes made in history. If that is the case, then the nomad would never have a reason to travel back in time. If he goes back in time to save a friend's life, then his friend would be alive and he would never have need to travel back in time. So, if actions taken in the past have direct consequences on the future, then in the future, the friend would be alive and the psion would never go back in time and never have the opportunity to kill Pun-Pun. The argument would then be 'But he does travel back in time to save his friend. He manifests the power and goes back in time.' And the response is 'If he travels back in time and saves his friend, then he has no reason to travel back in time in the future, since his friend is alive. Meaning, if he travels back in time, he doesn't travel back in time.' So... yeah :confused:.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-05-05, 02:01 AM	Alright... lemme adress the time paradox thing. Although, I still have one problem with it, so currently this build doesn't work until I can figure a way around the last problem, which I will illustrate in a moment. The reason pun-pun cannot see his death nor any future alterations of time is for the following reasons: ~First one should think of how the time regression power affects the timestream. If moves us back one round (rewriting that round) but then changes the future (the outcome of that round may be different). Thus each casting of time regression changes both the future and the past. I call this switching to a new timeline. Two timelines share a similar past (beyond the one re-written round), but do not necessarily have the future. This means that each time time regression is manifested pun-pun's vision of the future changes. Also, each time the power is manifested its manifestation is new to pun-pun, as the previous round was re-written and its knowledge is erased from everyone but the manifestor. ~Using the timeline theory above, we can now more clearly express my original "time evasion." If pun-pun or one of his ancestors is killed in the past, pun-pun will not exist in the present and thus won't be able to sense it. Essentially, pun-pun is fixed to seeing the "current" past and present, but time regression modifies that current timestream and replaces it with new timeline. Thus, pun-pun cannot know what a new time stream will be like until he is on it. That is until it is altered. ~Pun cannot sense a future alteration of time for similar reasons. He cannot sense a change that will change the current timestream. I think this is fairly obvious, as that new timestream will be on a different timeline. Here is what pun-pun could sense, and this is the problem I have yet to resolve. Pun-pun could sense a future manifestation (the act of manifesting, not the result) of a time regression. Although to sense time beyond that point would be on a different time-line, which means that the manifestation of time regression screws with his time sense in the future. Past time regressions are considered to be part of his current timeline and thus he could sense them. However, time regressions made in the future by our psion would continually redefine the present, which makes it impossible for pun-pun to see what will happen until it happens. Regardless, pun-pun could sense the act or thought of manifesting the power before it takes effect and may act accordingly. Furthermore, pun-pun has an opportunity to do something every time the power is manifested all down the line. (up to a point in which pun-pun is no longer a deity.) I can evade pun-pun's remote sensing with an application of divine shield SDA, but I cannot evade his sense of an event (such as the manifestation of time regression) by means of his portfolio sense. This means that right now I cannot escape the possiblity that pun-pun could have a contingent spell against my casting of time regression that somehow kills me. Currently, my thought is to abuse the annoymous nature of the portfolio sense (the only thing it doesn't tell you is who preformed the deed). So conceivably, any number of psions could be casting time regression at a given point in time. Which would mean the multiverse is constantly doing the buddhist walk (two steps forward, one step back). This doesn't hold a candle to pun-pun's infinite readied actions however, as he could easily annihilate anyone who dares think of casting time regression. Bottom line: This build is non-functional until I can find a way to evade pun-pun's portfolio sense. Once that epic task is completed, I think this build will work. I may have to cave and somehow use LoP's unique infinite damage loop to gain infinite bluff or diplomacy and then dupe pun-pun into ignoring me until I erase him from the timestream.
SoulGamit 12-05-05, 02:19 AM	I'm pretty sure that Pun-pun is sitting in a corner paralyzed and drooling like an opium addict. :P There is no game mechanic for such a thing, and D&D doesn't follow the normal rules of reality. For instence, it's possible for people to carry around neutron star matter, people can make illusions that are 140% real, and my personal favorite, they can cure critical wounds on themselves by drowning. Bottom line: This build is non-functional until I can find a way to evade pun-pun's portfolio sense. Once that epic task is completed, I think this build will work. I may have to cave and somehow use LoP's unique infinite damage loop to gain infinite bluff or diplomacy and then dupe pun-pun into ignoring me until I erase him from the timestream. Actually, if Pun-Pun can create a plan that has -X years for every Y amount of time in relevence to the material plane, then even this wouldn't work because he could very well cast contingent spells to stop himself from being erased from the timeline. I don't know if it is possible (not being famimlier with the planes).
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-05-05, 02:53 AM	Hmmm... thinking about the use of diplomacy, I see that I don't really need to get my diplomacy build up very high. Though having it at an infinite number certainly takes care of any conditional or situational modifiers to the DC check. Note that pun-pun would not make an opposing role, it's simply a check for me to influence his attitude from one level to another. Additionally, diplomacy is not a mind-affecting effect (with the exception of the fanatic effect). So, a possible strategy would be: full-round action diplomacy check pun-pun with an infinite score (gotten via LoP's omniscificer trick) and make him helpful to me. (Willing to take a risk for me: like allowing me to manifest time regression, which isn't necessarily fatal to him.) Once I've stripped Pun-Pun of his infinite powers and infinite stats/ability scores/SQs/SAs/etc (ie we've regressed to the point where pun-pun is around level 5) then I no longer need to ask his permission if I can manifest time regression. This is important to note since helpful people aren't necessarily willing to die for the diplomancer. However, now that I needn't fear pun-pun's infinite power, I can continue to regress time and erase him from the future by killing as many ancestors of his I am able to kill. To address the issue of infinite pun-pun clones: If each is truely independant of pun-pun, then what incentive do they have to serve him? The ensuing pun-pun clone war would probably rip the fabric of the universe, but basically it would result in there being no pun-pun. So I think that pun-pun must make his clones subserviant to him, which means I need only talk to the master pun-pun in order to control them all. The method of approach is a bit of a problem still. Pun-Pun may fear the thought of anyone talking to him and thus wouldn't allow it. Also, pun-pun would know in advance that I would befriend him and then manifest time regression, although he wouldn't know to what end it was done. Curiously enough, I don't know whether or not pun-pun would avoid this eventuality simply because he would see the diplomacy effect and his present self would be persuaded (as the diplomacy check was directed towards himself). So then we come to a war of possibilities... is the mere possibility of me preforming such a diplomacy check make it so in the future? I don't think so. But if it is fated to be, then wouldn't pun-pun not be persuaded on the moment he saw that future and thus allowing me to begin my time regression? Tricky... very tricky.
Lokiyn 12-05-05, 03:17 AM	something that has been bothering me on every single pun pun or anti pun pun thread Look people Clone Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 8 Components: V, S, M, F Casting Time: 10 minutes Range: 0 ft. Effect: One clone Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No This spell makes an inert duplicate of a creature. If the original individual has been slain, its soul immediately transfers to the clone, creating a replacement (provided that the soul is free and willing to return). The original’s physical remains, should they still exist, become inert and cannot thereafter be restored to life. If the original creature has reached the end of its natural life span (that is, it has died of natural causes), any cloning attempt fails. To create the duplicate, you must have a piece of flesh (not hair, nails, scales, or the like) with a volume of at least 1 cubic inch that was taken from the original creature’s living body. The piece of flesh need not be fresh, but it must be kept from rotting. Once the spell is cast, the duplicate must be grown in a laboratory for 2d4 months. When the clone is completed, the original’s soul enters it immediately, if that creature is already dead. The clone is physically identical with the original and possesses the same personality and memories as the original. In other respects, treat the clone as if it were the original character raised from the dead, including the loss of one level or 2 points of Constitution (if the original was a 1st-level character). If this Constitution adjustment would give the clone a Constitution score of 0, the spell fails. If the original creature has lost levels since the flesh sample was taken and died at a lower level than the clone would otherwise be, the clone is one level below the level at which the original died. The spell duplicates only the original’s body and mind, not its equipment. A duplicate can be grown while the original still lives, or when the original soul is unavailable, but the resulting body is merely a soulless bit of inert flesh, which rots if not preserved. Material Component The piece of flesh and various laboratory supplies (cost 1,000 gp). Focus Special laboratory equipment (cost 500 gp).
Khan the Destroyer 12-05-05, 04:41 AM	The reason pun-pun cannot see his death nor any future alterations of time is for the following reasons: ~First one should think of how the time regression power affects the timestream. If moves us back one round (rewriting that round) but then changes the future (the outcome of that round may be different). Thus each casting of time regression changes both the future and the past. I call this switching to a new timeline. Two timelines share a similar past (beyond the one re-written round), but do not necessarily have the future. This means that each time time regression is manifested pun-pun's vision of the future changes. Also, each time the power is manifested its manifestation is new to pun-pun, as the previous round was re-written and its knowledge is erased from everyone but the manifestor. Pun-Pun doesn't need his portfolio senses to kick in in order to prevent this. It is my assumption (and a fair one I think, though it can be disputed) that Pun-Pun will secure his existence in any way within his means once he reaches the Manipulate Form abuse. So, in your example, this takes place 1000 years after Pun-Pun 'ascended'. Six to Twelve seconds after Pun-Pun ascended is when he decided to go back in time (using his Godly Realm, or the Create Time Portal epic feat found in the same WoTC article as the Travel Through Time spell) and leave 3 million guardians each identical in power to him. These beings will gaurd him throughout time to make sure he will always exist. ~Using the timeline theory above, we can now more clearly express my original "time evasion." If pun-pun or one of his ancestors is killed in the past, pun-pun will not exist in the present and thus won't be able to sense it. Essentially, pun-pun is fixed to seeing the "current" past and present, but time regression modifies that current timestream and replaces it with new timeline. Thus, pun-pun cannot know what a new time stream will be like until he is on it. That is until it is altered. Likewise, if your friend is saved, you will never have gone into the past to begin with. Hmmm... thinking about the use of diplomacy, I see that I don't really need to get my diplomacy build up very high. Though having it at an infinite number certainly takes care of any conditional or situational modifiers to the DC check. Note that pun-pun would not make an opposing role, it's simply a check for me to influence his attitude from one level to another. Additionally, diplomacy is not a mind-affecting effect (with the exception of the fanatic effect). A contingency could stop this. As well as Anticipatory Strike. Not to mention that since Pun-Pun will know the artificer is coming (from mundane sense alone) he can pull this same stunt on the artificer beforehand. Make him helpful and ask him what his intentions were. To address the issue of infinite pun-pun clones: If each is truely independant of pun-pun, then what incentive do they have to serve him? The ensuing pun-pun clone war would probably rip the fabric of the universe, but basically it would result in there being no pun-pun. So I think that pun-pun must make his clones subserviant to him, which means I need only talk to the master pun-pun in order to control them all. The duplicates think and act as Pun-Pun do and obey his orders, as the Fission power. Despite the fact that some stats are halved, Pun-Pun and each duplicate can power up after the power is manifested. Assuming you can tell the master Pun-Pun from the rest is silly. Presumably, Pun-Pun would send a duplicate out to meet with anyone trying to speak with him. And no one would be the wiser. So the artificer would roll his diplomacy check and turn the duplicate helpful, but the duplicate is still under Pun-Pun's control. The artificer is found out and slain. something that has been bothering me on every single pun pun or anti pun pun thread Look people In the original Pun-Pun thread I have always referenced the psionic power Fission as the source of Pun-Pun's limitless army of clone soldiers. I don't know if someone mentioned the Clone spell in this thread, but I have always been going under the assumption that he uses the Fission power. With it, Pun-Pun can create an arbitrarily high number of duplicates, have them all power up for a crazy amount of time (using infinite action loops so that it is only 1 round) and then fuse with all of them to boost his power up even that much higher. But more importantly, he has an army of exact duplicates that obey him and can take the fall if anyone tries to attack him. So, the issues I have are that: 1. Pun-Pun will be waiting for you in the past when you attempt to slay him. Not you personally, but waiting in general for anyone. This is because as soon as he gains his power, he has the ability to stop any attempt at killing him through time travel. 2. Temporal paradoxes. The game doesn't explain time travel. To limit Pun-Pun with a temporal paradox (the grandfather clause) but not limit yourself with a temporal paradox is inconsistent. In order for you to go back in time, your friend will have to die, no matter your attempts to save him in the past. In order for you to decide to kill Pun-Pun in the past, he will have to exist in the future. He will therefore survive your attacks in the past. In other words, the timestream will thwart your attempts to keep your actions consistent with the future. Otherwise, a paradox will develop. There may be more, but I have done too much thinking for now ;).
Alorand 12-05-05, 12:23 PM	TG first I would like to say that I love your idea. Very clever! I could get all philosophical and observe how the CO board rallied around Pun-Pun when he was the underdog, when he was a low level kobold challenging the power of the gods. He was the ultimate revolutionary showing that the lowliest creature that set its mind to it could achieve anything. But now that he has risen to power the anarchist in us will not rest. We feel the need to bring down all things that are high and mighty no matter how improbable their defeat, regardless of past respect and admiration. But I will not get into that! (Damn, too late, I did :embarrass ). But however much it hurts me to do this to a fellow Physics student there are a few issues that I must bring up. First you should add the following to your list of assumption: “Even though nothing in Manipulate Form’s description forbids it we will assume that Pun-Pun can not grant himself abilities that have not been printed somewhere.” If that is not an assumption Pun-Pun grants himself the following: Quintessence in my veins (Ex): Requirement: Divine rank 21+ The creature with this ability has found a way to remove himself from the timeline as if immersed in quintessence without affecting his ability to move and function. Destroying the creature’s ancestors or past forms, even if it’s a second ago does nothing to destroy the creature. He may be killed normally in the present. Also where in the world are you getting those crazy ideas about the astral plane?!? :looloo: It’s not some weird null-time plane. Time flows on the astral. Spell durations expire. No, it is a plane of thought. The reason that nobody ages on the astral is because when you’re on the astral your body is the manifestation of your thoughts. Nobody consciously thinks of growing old, it’s a physiological process related to our physical bodies. We don’t have physical bodies on the astral – we are the manifestations of our thoughts and thoughts don’t grow old. However a being that has lived past his natural maximum life-span on the astral will drop dead the second he leaves. Also if LoP did not slap some weird copyright on it what is preventing Pun-Pun from pulling of the infinite Knowledge check trick? He is smart enough to come up with it if it’s possible and with his NI intelligence and wisdom is one of the few beings I would not house-rule as incapable of storing or processing the information that you have extrapolated in your moment of exquisite enlightenment. Omniscience AND Nigh-Omnipotence on a single being… Hmm I am getting ideas. :plotting: Ok how about this for an explanation: Pun-Pun IS the creator of the Multiverse. In a weird causality paradox Pun-Pun-God who exists outside of time and who created the Multiverse was born in it. The reason he created it as it is now is because he had some good memories growning up and wants to preserve them. That explains why the Sarrukh’s have the ability to manipulate forms and the Ice Assasin spell exists and yet no one has used them until now. The Creator Pun-Pun is leaving those things possible so that he is born and grows up the way he remembers it happening. In fact isn’t there a place in a Forgotten Realms novel where after the time of troubles Ao answers to a higher being? :bow: That is Pun-Pun! Note: This has eerie parallels with what some people believe in real life I hope I am not offending anyone’s religion.
zavin 12-05-05, 01:53 PM	Wouldn't Pun-Pun sense the fact that the thought to kill Pun-Pun crossed your mind?: Yes, if Pun-Pun were somehow able to gain the "Omniscient" portfolio then he would know the thoughts of everyone. Even if I removed the thought from my brain he would know it. The solution? Don't have the thought while Pun-Pun is in power. We then sincerely desire to travel back in time to save our friend. While in the past, we have all of the knowledge of the future and remember that "hey, that stupid kobold named Pun-Pun really messed things up, while I'm back here I should take him out." Since we are back before Pun-Pun was born the future Pun-Pun can do nothing to stop me. In the past I then discover who Pun-Pun's parents were and kill them. Problem solved. Pun-Pun was never born. It's like "double-think" in the book 1984, where they erase the past. The one problem with this is that the only reason for doing all this would be to go back in time to kill Pun-Pun, you would HAVE to have this thought and Pun-Pun would know it and kill you. You can't stop yourself from having this thought, because tat thought triggers this entire quest. Without the thought you wouldn't be able to start the quest.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-05-05, 02:53 PM	Let me make this clear before I go into a protracted argument Khan, this build does not work as is. Consider it a work in progress... Pun-Pun doesn't need his portfolio senses to kick in in order to prevent this. It is my assumption (and a fair one I think, though it can be disputed) that Pun-Pun will secure his existence in any way within his means once he reaches the Manipulate Form abuse. So, in your example, this takes place 1000 years after Pun-Pun 'ascended'. Six to Twelve seconds after Pun-Pun ascended is when he decided to go back in time (using his Godly Realm, or the Create Time Portal epic feat found in the same WoTC article as the Travel Through Time spell) and leave 3 million guardians each identical in power to him. These beings will gaurd him throughout time to make sure he will always exist. Likewise, if your friend is saved, you will never have gone into the past to begin with. This is has numerous problems inherent with it. Lets assume for a second that pun-pun did indeed go back in time and place guardians around himself. He must have used time regression to do this else he would have provoked the wrath of a legalized DM fiat by using teleport through time. This doesn't prevent pun-pun from placing the guards back in time, however. Anyways, now lets assume for the moment that pun-pun allows the psion to use his method of backwards time travel. On doing so, the psion UNDOES whatever pun-pun did in the past rounds. This is the basic premise and purpose of the power. So no past time guardians will help pun-pun. A contingency could stop this. As well as Anticipatory Strike. Not to mention that since Pun-Pun will know the artificer is coming (from mundane sense alone) he can pull this same stunt on the artificer beforehand. Make him helpful and ask him what his intentions were. The duplicates think and act as Pun-Pun do and obey his orders, as the Fission power. Despite the fact that some stats are halved, Pun-Pun and each duplicate can power up after the power is manifested. Assuming you can tell the master Pun-Pun from the rest is silly. Presumably, Pun-Pun would send a duplicate out to meet with anyone trying to speak with him. And no one would be the wiser. So the artificer would roll his diplomacy check and turn the duplicate helpful, but the duplicate is still under Pun-Pun's control. The artificer is found out and slain. It would be simple for LoP's artificer to differentiate the true pun-pun from the duplicates by virtue of his infinite knowledge alone. Although I admit the approach method is still in the air. Let it be known that I was simply playing with the idea. Personally, I prefer a method that would somehow erase my existance from pun-pun's knowledge, but I haven't made such a method yet. Several people take issue with the astral plane trick as being the D&D "no-ship," so I won't be using that anymore. Currently, I am fairly happy with the jar of quintessence trick for my items. My newest thought is to stick my head into a bucket of quintessence, thereby removing it from the timestream. The damage from such an action is minimal and would allow me to think outside of the time stream. The description for quintessence does not say that it prevents mental activity. I should say that this is still a theory and I am not entirely sure about it yet. Another thought I had to evade the action of pun-pun would be mass timehop (it can be manifested as an immediate action, which places it anywhere in the initiative.) Of course this would only evade pun-pun for hours/ML... upon which time he could zap me when I get back, but I never said it was a perfect plan. In the original Pun-Pun thread I have always referenced the psionic power Fission as the source of Pun-Pun's limitless army of clone soldiers. I don't know if someone mentioned the Clone spell in this thread, but I have always been going under the assumption that he uses the Fission power. With it, Pun-Pun can create an arbitrarily high number of duplicates, have them all power up for a crazy amount of time (using infinite action loops so that it is only 1 round) and then fuse with all of them to boost his power up even that much higher. But more importantly, he has an army of exact duplicates that obey him and can take the fall if anyone tries to attack him. Dude, no one is worried about the fact that pun-pun is nigh infinite here. Well, I mean it is a problem, but this is well known and established. Infinite clones (or nearly infinite) and nigh infinite power is just overkill after a point. Even with nigh infinite clones merging with pun-pun at nigh infinite power, it still doesn't reach the infinity of LoP's trick. But so far I can't figure out how to use his trick to my complete advantage. To address your issues with temporal paradoxes... I will just refer you to my previous posts on "time evasion." If you read them carefully you'll see that I am bound by the grandfather clause myself (I can't go beyond the point of my birth) but that's irrelevent if I am older than pun-pun. There's nothing really "theoretical" about my "time-evasion" if you can stomach the irony. It's just a simple application of the power description to a linear time scale. I hope to put a pictoral version of it soon... if it appears that further clarification is required.
Chance Gibboney 12-05-05, 04:07 PM	what Realm is Pun-Pun in...because if he is in FR, then AO would have just killed him when he had the notion do start his megolomanic path to the destruction of all. We know AO does have the Omniscience (sp) Salent ability, and we know that kn ow one becomes a god with out his permission...soooooo. Just a question.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-05-05, 04:15 PM	Pun-Pun's existance is extremely improbable when you involve NPC gods. Oddly enough, pun-pun uses NPC gods (or ice assassins of them) to give himself godly power. That alone should be sufficient to say he does not exist whether there is an Ao or not. However, this build assumes that pun-pun is given the benefit of the doubt and does indeed exist. This assumption is traded for the possibility for my character to exist.
Khan the Destroyer 12-06-05, 12:03 AM	This is has numerous problems inherent with it. Lets assume for a second that pun-pun did indeed go back in time and place guardians around himself. He must have used time regression to do this else he would have provoked the wrath of a legalized DM fiat by using teleport through time. No. I have already explained how Pun-Pun can travel through time completely unrestricted. He can manipulate the time trait of his godly realm to whatever he desires. Meaning he can set it so that 1 round on his godly realm is -1000 years on the material plane. Anyways, now lets assume for the moment that pun-pun allows the psion to use his method of backwards time travel. On doing so, the psion UNDOES whatever pun-pun did in the past rounds. This is the basic premise and purpose of the power. So no past time guardians will help pun-pun. This still causes a paradox. It would be simple for LoP's artificer to differentiate the true pun-pun from the duplicates by virtue of his infinite knowledge alone. LoP's 'Omniscience' is still being debated. However, if it works, then we can assume that Pun-Pun himself would use it and figure out who was going to attempt to kill him and kill them. Dude, no one is worried about the fact that pun-pun is nigh infinite here. Well, I mean it is a problem, but this is well known and established. Infinite clones (or nearly infinite) and nigh infinite power is just overkill after a point. Dude, Lokiyn was pointing out that clones made using the Clone spell are inert and lifeless, and therefore useless. I was explaining that Pun-Pun doesn't use the Clone spell for his infinite clones, but rather the Fission power. To address your issues with temporal paradoxes... I will just refer you to my previous posts on "time evasion." If you read them carefully you'll see that I am bound by the grandfather clause myself (I can't go beyond the point of my birth) but that's irrelevent if I am older than pun-pun. There's nothing really "theoretical" about my "time-evasion" if you can stomach the irony. It's just a simple application of the power description to a linear time scale. I hope to put a pictoral version of it soon... if it appears that further clarification is required. The Grandfather Paradox is not the one I am referring to. If your psion goes back in time to save his friend and succeeds, then he would never have had a reason to go back in time. So he never would have. Likewise, if he thinks about killing Pun-Pun in the past and does it, then Pun-Pun never would have existed in the future for the psion to know about and plot his murder. In other words, your plans are doomed to fail because the timestream would become inconsistent. Time itself would intervene and stop you from succeeding to keep everything straight. What would happen is an alternate timestream would be created, where Pun-Pun wouldn't exist because he got killed in the past. But all you have done is create a new timeline. The 'present' Pun-Pun would still exist in a different future.
SigmaJargon 12-06-05, 12:31 AM	This is why I hate introducing any sort of time travel to a game without some sort of coherent, concrete ruling on resolving the unavoidable paradoxes. :nonono: Either that, or the multiverse needs a small army of super-powerful specially crafted Inevitables who use their time-traveling abilities to A.) slay those who mess with the timeline and B.) Work to put the timeline back in its preordained state.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-06-05, 12:40 AM	No. I have already explained how Pun-Pun can travel through time completely unrestricted. He can manipulate the time trait of his godly realm to whatever he desires. Meaning he can set it so that 1 round on his godly realm is -1000 years on the material plane. Ah, I see. However you must realize something. If you set the time variable on your plane as a function of the material plane time it isn't actually time travel. For time travel to work one must have two independant time functions at work and the solution of the two is the current time at which you arrive. For example, time regression has the function t = -x, for some positive integer x. And the material plane has t = S(y) + C, for some positive integer y, where S denotes summation and C is some initial starting point. Set the two equal to eachother and solve for t, given x, y, and C. (x = one round, y = one round, C = current year in rounds - 1 round). The result is a 1 round movement backwards. However, in your system, the two functions are not independent. In fact as you word it "1 round = -1000 rounds on the material plane," which is a clear statement of mathematical dependancy. Since one round is equivalent to -1000 rounds moving from one plane to the other is equivalent. So also is moving back, you accomplish nothing as far as time travel is concerned. This still causes a paradox. I fail to see the paradox. It's simply a matter of who goes last. Whomever goes last rewrites the history. If I were to go last, as I gave in that quote, then I would erase pun-pun and he would not get a chance to go last. The fact that I exist is proof that pun-pun did not erase me. LoP's 'Omniscience' is still being debated. However, if it works, then we can assume that Pun-Pun himself would use it and figure out who was going to attempt to kill him and kill them. Yeah, I figured you would use that strategy, which is why I was leery about any attempts to "out infinite" pun-pun. In the case of diplomacy, there is no counter check. If I use LoP's trick it would only be to boost some ability that doesn't allow pun-pun to save or check against it. Consider Lop's trick a possibility, but I realize the fact that it's a two-edged sword. Dude, Lokiyn was pointing out that clones made using the Clone spell are inert and lifeless, and therefore useless. I was explaining that Pun-Pun doesn't use the Clone spell for his infinite clones, but rather the Fission power. Ah, ok. I thought for some reason you were beating the fact that pun-pun is infinite in my head again. The Grandfather Paradox is not the one I am referring to. If your psion goes back in time to save his friend and succeeds, then he would never have had a reason to go back in time. So he never would have. Likewise, if he thinks about killing Pun-Pun in the past and does it, then Pun-Pun never would have existed in the future for the psion to know about and plot his murder. In other words, your plans are doomed to fail because the timestream would become inconsistent. Time itself would intervene and stop you from succeeding to keep everything straight. What would happen is an alternate timestream would be created, where Pun-Pun wouldn't exist because he got killed in the past. But all you have done is create a new timeline. The 'present' Pun-Pun would still exist in a different future. I think you're confusing timelines. In one timeline, where I did not go back yet to save my friend, he is dead. This timeline is the current time line. Once I start regressing to save my friend I create an effective new timeline. (I define time line to be a record of events past and present. The use of time regression changes the record of the past as well as possibly the future, so it creates a new time line by my definition.) Thus there is no intervention, it's just a seperate time line. Think of this on a round by round scale. If last round someone died and I time regress to try to prevent that would he be forever doomed to die? No, because new rolls may be made and the probabilities of that single event may change. This is what the psion does, he changes the probabilities of a given event each time he goes back in time. In the case of this build he is trying to reduce the probability of pun-pun to zero. Unfortunately, I'm having a bit of a problem doing that right now... pun-pun's portfolio sense is messing my build up.
Adam500 12-06-05, 12:42 AM	LoP's 'Omniscience' is still being debated. However, if it works, then we can assume that Pun-Pun himself would use it and figure out who was going to attempt to kill him and kill them. I still don't understand how you gain knowledge of the future through his method, as that seems outside the scope of the Knowledge skill. But that is a topic for another time. The Grandfather Paradox is not the one I am referring to. If your psion goes back in time to save his friend and succeeds, then he would never have had a reason to go back in time. So he never would have. Likewise, if he thinks about killing Pun-Pun in the past and does it, then Pun-Pun never would have existed in the future for the psion to know about and plot his murder. In other words, your plans are doomed to fail because the timestream would become inconsistent. Time itself would intervene and stop you from succeeding to keep everything straight. What you describe sounds ALOT like a grandfather paradox. Regardless, I am personally of the opinion that Time Travel in games should follow the "Back to the Future model" in which you create an alternate future which supercedes the old one. Both alternatives exist, but you never have to see the old one, and ergo Pun-Pun, again. What would happen is an alternate timestream would be created, where Pun-Pun wouldn't exist because he got killed in the past. But all you have done is create a new timeline. The 'present' Pun-Pun would still exist in a different future. A different future that the character and his loved ones from this version of reality (which should be fairly close to the old one with the notable exception) never have to experience. The timetraveler character is happy, because to his perspective Pun-Pun is no more. Objective complete.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-06-05, 06:39 PM	Alright, I promised I would find a suitable solution to pun-pun's portfolio sense. The solution is presented in the Hiding from Pun-Pun's Gaze section of the OP. Enjoy. I would like to give a big thanks to FromTheShadows for indirectly leading me to this result. Note that this new method removes the necessity for "time-evasion" and crazy time paradoxes for hiding from pun-pun. Although, I still firmly believe in my time evasion theory for certain things. Anyways, I hope this is the final version... but, you never know. Khan or others will probably find a hole in my logic. Before you go about ripping it apart, please re-read the OP. I've added an assumption list which might help answer some questions that may arrise.
FromTheShadows 12-06-05, 07:11 PM	Read through the Slayer PrC everyone, I feel that you'll like what you find there. Simply alter this build so it comes to 9 slayer levels somehow, and Pun-Pun no longer has the ability to seek and destroy you. How you say? Well, by a strict reading of the RAW, Slayer makes you immune to the Portfolio Sense and Remote Sensing of dieties. Absurd, but it works. Here's the rulings on those two: Portfolios and Portfolio Sense: Portfolio Every deity of rank 1 or higher has at least limited knowledge and control over some aspect of mortal existence. A deity’s connection to its portfolio gives it a number of powers. Portfolio Sense Demigods have a limited ability to sense events involving their portfolios. They automatically sense any event that involves one thousand or more people. The ability is limited to the present. Lesser deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios and affects five hundred or more people. Intermediate deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past for every divine rank they have. Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event. Note that anything bolded here becomes important later. Remote Sensing Remote Sensing As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can perceive everything within a radius of one mile per rank around any of its worshipers, holy sites, or other objects or locales sacred to the deity. This supernatural effect can also be centered on any place where someone speaks the deity’s name or title for up to 1 hour after the name is spoken, and at any location when an event related to the deity’s portfolio occurs.The remote sensing power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier except a divine shield (described in Salient Divine Abilities) or an area otherwise blocked by a deity of equal or higher rank. Remote sensing is not fooled by misdirection or nondetection or similar spells, and it does not create a magical sensor that other creatures can detect. A deity can extend its senses to two or more remote locations at once (depending on divine rank) and still sense what’s going on nearby. Once a deity chooses a remote location to sense, it automatically receives sensory information from that location until it chooses a new location to sense, or until it can’t sense the location. Again, remember what I've bolded. Hide And Seek: If you plan to bring about Pun-Pun's end, you're dead, as he can see it occuring way before it happens, right? Not to mention he knows everything way before it happens, as 'everything' is his portfolio. On top of that, he can read your thoughts whenever, whereever, and get you that way also. But... The Slayer has a solution. Cerebral Blind (Su) After reaching 6th level, a slayer is protected from all devices, powers, and spells that reveal location. This ability protects against information gathering by clairsentience powers or effects that reveal location. The ability even foils bend reality, limited wish, miracle, reality revision, and wish when they are used to gain information about the slayer’s location (however, metafaculty can pierce this protective barrier). In the case of remote viewing or scrying that scans an area a slayer is in, the effect works, but the slayer simply isn’t detected. Remote viewing or scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at a slayer do not work. This ability is active as long as the slayer is psionically focused. Yep, that's right. All things that reveal location. Now where have we heard that recently? When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. Sounds like that reveals our location. Too bad for Pun-Pun, as we're now off the map. It also seems that Knowledge skills/Gather Information/other things that reveal our location are also no good. If you get really silly with it, this means not even the Spot skill or blindsense or otherwise can get you. Invisibility is now outdated. Remote Sensing is still in the way? Look at the bolded part from earlier again. Remote sensing is not fooled by misdirection or nondetection or similar spells, and it does not create a magical sensor that other creatures can detect. Looks like this gets spells (and powers with transparency). Unfortunately for Pun-Pun again, only spells get in the way. Look at Cerebral Blind again: The ability even foils bend reality, limited wish, miracle, reality revision, and wish when they are used to gain information about the slayer’s location (however, metafaculty can pierce this protective barrier). Since it is an ability, and not a spell, it blocks Remote Sensing. Metafaculty is still a problem. Metafaculty is defeated by epic powers, epic spells, and epic special abilities that obscure divinations and clairsentience powers. Or is it? You elevate your mind to a near-universal consciousness, cogitating countless impressions and predictions involving any creature you have seen before, whether personally or by means of another power such as remote viewing. So, seeing us means that he's had our location revealed to him? No such luck, unless he spots you by some off chance early on. You're just one mortal, and the only way it seems that he'd cast it on you is out of spontaniety, as he can't find you any other way in the first place to discover your plans. But, I've missed the mindreading thing, right? Cerebral Immunity (Su) On reaching 9th level, a slayer gains protection from all devices, powers, and spells that influence the mind. This ability shields her against almost all mind-affecting powers and effects (though the slayer can selectively allow powers or spells to affect her). The ability even foils bend reality, limited wish, miracle, reality revision, and wish when they are used to mentally influence a slayer. This ability is active as long as the slayer is psionically focused. Ah, our lovely devices clause strikes again. He can't read your mind. Even if he could, it would reveal your location. See above for that. Silliness again comes from "all devices... that influence the mind". No more being Bluffed, Diplomacied, or otherwise! But what about this whole Pun-Pun time travel thing? Well, the thing is he doesn't know you exist or where you are (well, he might know you exist, but not where you are, but you're just another mortal to him). If he does sense you going back in time, he's sensing your sense-immune self, and therefore doesn't sense you at all. If your psionic focus goes down, you're dead though. So pick some race that doesn't sleep, don't go unconscious (Diehard?), and avoid hitting 0 PP. Warforged with Diehard and Improved Resilency (immune to subdual) seems to fix this. Keep in mind though, this is being very literal. One downside of this build? Nobody in the world will know who killed Pun-Pun, not even Pun-Pun himself, since that would reveal your location. Funny thing is, you can't even look at a map. All's well that ends with a dead kobold overdiety though, right? Whoops, beaten to the punch by TG himself. Took too long to type this I suppose.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-06-05, 07:26 PM	yeah, I saw your post on the omniscificer thread and the idea was an instant connection. I duly gave you credit at the end of the OP.
FromTheShadows 12-06-05, 07:28 PM	yeah, I saw your post on the omniscificer thread and the idea was an instant connection. I duly gave you credit at the end of the OP. Yeah, thanks for that. Hopefully that will be enough to finally crush Pun-Pun underfoot. Good luck.
SoulGamit 12-06-05, 07:36 PM	You are now immune to pun-pun's gaze, but now you can't kill him reguardless of what time your in or his power level. You no longer have any senses, sight, hearing, smell, anything because they would all reveal your reletive location. In fact, the thigns you can even think are now severely limited. How can you possibly kill anything without knowing were it is first?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-06-05, 08:21 PM	it doesn't limit MY senses, as far as I know... where did you get that? Once I know of pun-pun. I go into my cerebral blind and throw up divine shield... then I start regressing time. Each round I throw up divine shield again (the fact that I used it once the previous round is undone, so I never run out of uses). I don't need to see, hear, smell, taste, or touch anything. Not that I'm limited in that way, but just incase you find that I am some how... Besides, I don't need to know where pun-pun is to erase him. All I need is to go back to a point where he doesn't exist... killing his ancestors will be done by myself. Note that he couldn't sense his ancestor's destruction due to the time evasion theory... by the time he senses their death he is already erased from time.
FromTheShadows 12-06-05, 08:33 PM	You are now immune to pun-pun's gaze, but now you can't kill him reguardless of what time your in or his power level. You no longer have any senses, sight, hearing, smell, anything because they would all reveal your reletive location. In fact, the thigns you can even think are now severely limited. Touché salesman, I too have an uncle. You're reading the ability like this: After reaching 6th level, a slayer is protected from all devices, powers, and spells that reveal location. This ability protects against information gathering by clairsentience powers or effects that reveal location. But don't forget this: After reaching 6th level, a slayer is protected from all devices, powers, and spells that reveal location. This ability protects against information gathering by clairsentience powers or effects that reveal location. Dictionary.com defines protected as: 1: kept safe or defended from danger or injury or loss 2: guarded from injury or destruction So, the slayer can't be damaged, injured, or suffer loss because of things that reveal location. To me, losing your own sensory abilites seems to be something damaging and a big loss. A loss, of course, that comes about from them being sensory abilites, and something that you are protected from, therefore keeping your normal senses. How can you possibly kill anything without knowing were it is first? TG stated this on the first page: We find Pun-Pun's ancestors (using LoP's infinite knowledge check trick... see his thread here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=546612) ).
MonkeyGreatSEOH 12-06-05, 08:40 PM	This seems to be a good idea, but really it comes down to if you stack things enough in one persons favour then you might be able to win.
Prominence 12-06-05, 08:44 PM	I don't know, I still think that doesn't get around a contingent spell on time regression as, even if he can't sense you, time regression indirectly affects him. At that point he doesn't need anything except infinite space to find you - the contingency gives him an action, he goes infinite, fissions everywhere in existence, finds you with infinite knowledge or something.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-06-05, 08:56 PM	I don't know, I still think that doesn't get around a contingent spell on time regression as, even if he can't sense you, time regression indirectly affects him. At that point he doesn't need anything except infinite space to find you - the contingency gives him an action, he goes infinite, fissions everywhere in existence, finds you with infinite knowledge or something. I'm not sure how he could do that... but here's a possible solution. I preform my deed in a small exra-dimensional space... where there's no room for anyone else. If he can't fill the universe in one round then he won't succeed. Because all his actions will be undone by the end of that round. Besides where does it say that a knowledge check reveals the exact location of a creature!? I use a knowledge check to find the whereabouts of someone... in the general area... or I could use a gather info check. But that doesn't give me the perfect location of a person... no matter how infinite the check. I think this is one of the problems with LoP's post. Besides, a skill check falls under the effect category, which CB protects me from "information gathering powers and EFFECTS." So no beans on pun-pun being able to find me unless he bumps into me by filling the galaxy. (which the extra dimensional space trick fixes). This seems to be a good idea, but really it comes down to if you stack things enough in one persons favour then you might be able to win. I don't know about you, but I think pun-pun has A LOT stacked in his favor.
SoulGamit 12-06-05, 09:16 PM	Dictionary.com defines protected as: Originally Posted by Dictionary.com 1: kept safe or defended from danger or injury or loss 2: guarded from injury or destruction So, the slayer can't be damaged, injured, or suffer loss because of things that reveal location. To me, losing your own sensory abilites seems to be something damaging and a big loss. A loss, of course, that comes about from them being sensory abilites, and something that you are protected from, therefore keeping your normal senses. Aight, and now your not immune to Pun-Pun's gaze because it does not harm you or incure loss. Pun-Pun smiting you is what harms you. TG stated this on the first page: I meant how could he do it without any working senses. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he knows who or what Pun-Pun's ancesters are, which, by the way, is not information obtainable through a knowledge check by RAW.
Prominence 12-06-05, 09:16 PM	Well, contingency reads from complete arcane (139) that it's put on the person, and usually triggers when something happens to the bearer, and for the spell You can place another spell upon your person so that it comes into effect under some condition you dictate when casting contingency.. You'd have to cleverly word it, of course, but he should be able to do it to something like 'if something were to make me undo what i previously did (as time regression).' Keep in mind he'll have all these casting as he's going infinite in one round (due to various abusive infinite action methods). Even if he can't divine where your character is, he can fission infinite copies of himself if I'm not mistaken. Therefore, he can see everywhere. At this point, he is everywhere. Then, if you attempt to time regression again, he can spellcraft you, and contingent 'if I see someone casting a time-affecting spell' or just quickened actions. Could you explain why an extra-dimensional space would fix this, as he can destroy all of them and probably bypass them with some Su/ex/spell/SDA he has? edit: and finally, he can bypass the slayer's undetection ability by simply filling the universe with an AMF (which puts a copy of himself roughly 20' from each other in all existence). You'd lose your Su non-detection, and pun-pun remains uneffected. edit2: this is, of course, all assuming he does not have to directly detect YOU, just what you are doing and going from there.
FromTheShadows 12-06-05, 09:29 PM	Aight, and now your not immune to Pun-Pun's gaze because it does not harm you or incure loss. Pun-Pun smiting you is what harms you. But the gaze causes the smiting to come about, which does harm you. The gaze reveals your location, which allows the subsequent damaging effects to occur. So you are immune to the gaze, because it reveals your location and makes a form of injury to yourself become possible that would not be possible if your location was otherwise unknown.
SoulGamit 12-06-05, 09:37 PM	But the gaze causes the smiting to come about, which does harm you. The gaze reveals your location, which allows the subsequent damaging effects to occur. So you are immune to the gaze, because it reveals your location and makes a form of injury to yourself become possible that would not be possible if your location was otherwise unknown. OK, so now the SU ability even stops things that indirectly may cause you to be detected in such a way that MAY cause loss? All right, it can be said that pun-pun has this ability, no? Well then, your very existence makes it possible to detect and potentiall harm pun-pun, therefore this SU ability wipes you from existence. For that matter, even if you don't take the most literal interpritation, how can YOU detect or even know about pun-pun if he has this ability?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-06-05, 09:39 PM	Alright I can see a few of you are struggling to keep a grip on reality. Pun-Pun cannot fill the multiverse in a single round. Why? because it is infinite and pun-pun is merely a huge number, no where near infinite. Once that single round is over all his actions go away and we're back to square 1. Think of it this way: multiverse = pun-pun + 1. I win. Especially if I can be in my own dimensional space... where only I fit. How would he occupy such a plane? He cannot plane shift or teleport to a plane that doesn't have room for him. Also, he cannot see me on that plane... because of CB and divine shield. Futhermore, CB doesn't limit your own senses. It only limits others... [edit]: nice catch on the contigency FromTheShadows! (referencing the fact that a contingency must be set off by something that affects the bearer). Although ready action is less specific and would allow one to act on something that does not target pun-pun. If pun-pun had infinite readied actions (which he only has a lot, not quite infinite) then he wouldn't fill the universe.
MonkeyGreatSEOH 12-06-05, 09:42 PM	I don't know about you, but I think pun-pun has A LOT stacked in his favor. No, he has a lot of things in his favour but they haven't been purposely built into the scenario to help him such as being born at a specific time, etc and even then his powers actually work based entirely on D&D rules. Like I said, it's a good idea but it's really pretty unfeasible in terms of an actual game and even then it comes down to maybe working .
Llochlyn 12-06-05, 09:48 PM	And the whole idea is to find a way to beat his own rulebashing by rulebashing better than he did... And that is what is being done here... It's just getting me mad that people keep saying "PunPun is almighty, whatever attempts you'd make, he'll always win because he is just the almighty" Ok, now don't be childish and let people try to be "almightiest" just for the sake of optimization Oppose rules to rules ! We ALL respect PunPuns power... that's why we try so hard finding better, because he is so good !
FromTheShadows 12-06-05, 09:51 PM	Well, contingency reads from complete arcane (139) that it's put on the person, and usually triggers when something happens to the bearer, and for the spell . You'd have to cleverly word it, of course, but he should be able to do it to something like 'if something were to make me undo what i previously did (as time regression).' Keep in mind he'll have all these casting as he's going infinite in one round (due to various abusive infinite action methods). This isn't affecting the bearer though. Time Regression is a personal targeted power. Assuming this contingency does activate, it does so in the exact same instant as the power. The power undoes all actions that round, meaning said contingency is undone as soon as it activates and doesn't have any affect at all. That, or it has an effect for an instant and that effect is immediately negated, as the power has already been set in effect. Even if he can't divine where your character is, he can fission infinite copies of himself if I'm not mistaken. Therefore, he can see everywhere. At this point, he is everywhere. So, if he sees you, he intends to bring about harm then? That means something he does something to reveal your location that will result in damage. Therefore, he doesn't see you. You could be naked, painted in bright colors, covered in bells, and screaming at the top of your lungs while balancing on Pun-Pun's head, and he would not find you if it would ever cause you harm as a result. Then, if you attempt to time regression again, he can spellcraft you, and contingent 'if I see someone casting a time-affecting spell' or just quickened actions. He has free action, while the spell occurs as a action that instantly rewinds time before that free action occurs. He doesn't percieve it, even if he could it would be revealing your location to bring about harm, and be negated. Even if he could do THAT, the power is already in motion and undoes the effects of whatever Pun-Pun casts. Could you explain why an extra-dimensional space would fix this, as he can destroy all of them and probably bypass them with some Su/ex/spell/SDA he has? Showing location, causes harm, etc. He can't destroy a demiplane that he doesn't know even exists. Not that there even seems to be an ability to destroy a demiplane, the closest thing being the Antigenesis version of the genesis power that only works on the Material Plane anyways. [edit: and finally, he can bypass the slayer's undetection ability by simply filling the universe with an AMF (which puts a copy of himself roughly 20' from each other in all existence). You'd lose your Su non-detection, and pun-pun remains uneffected. So his plane is effected by an AMF, and maybe the ethereal if he uses Transdimensional Spell. That doesn't bother our Slayer, who whiles away his time-travelling in his little demiplane that Pun-Pun has no idea exists. edit2: this is, of course, all assuming he does not have to directly detect YOU, just what you are doing and going from there. The detecting abilities that I know of that Pun-Pun has do not seem to detect only 'what is happening' but 'where it is happening' also, meaning that the whole location-damage thing comes up again.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-06-05, 09:52 PM	No, he has a lot of things in his favour but they haven't been purposely built into the scenario to help him such as being born at a specific time, etc and even then his powers actually work based entirely on D&D rules. Like I said, it's a good idea but it's really pretty unfeasible in terms of an actual game and even then it comes down to maybe working . Look, it's not too much to assume that everything must be within the RAW. In fact that's a basic assumption on this board. Also, everyone is born at a specific time... I gave pun-pun a whole millenia before I offed him. Really he could be in power for even longer than that the time he is in power is irrelevant. So are his abilities. Pun-Pun simply cannot make an opposing check to this build. (Of course, I leave open the possibility that someone could beat my build, but as I sit right now this build seems to work) [Edit]: I would be careful when saying that pun-pun doesn't know this extradimensional space doesn't exist, FromTheShadows... with a very high knowledge the planes check he could know of it. However, any attempt to planeshift there would simply fail. Also, since he doesn't know what mortal dared manifest time regression he cannot target a mortal with his life and death SDA. Furthermore, due to my single divine rank I am not a mortal! The only powers the cross planes are SDAs... as far as I know (with the exception of an dimensional spell, but those only affect the material, shadow, and ethereal...) BTW: the tiny plane I reference is one created by the psionic genesis spell... (I only concentrated on it for 5 days... making a five foot radius plane).
neilthrun 12-06-05, 10:13 PM	This is begining to sound too much like Terminator.
FromTheShadows 12-06-05, 10:17 PM	OK, so now the SU ability even stops things that indirectly may cause you to be detected in such a way that MAY cause loss? Maybe I worded it wrong. It will stop things that will cause loss. If Pun-Pun will hurt you, disable you, or cause you loss in any way at any time as a result of detecting your location, he will never detect your location. All right, it can be said that pun-pun has this ability, no? Well then, your very existence makes it possible to detect and potentiall harm pun-pun, therefore this SU ability wipes you from existence. First, assuming Pun-Pun did have the ability, it would simply keep anyone who could find Pun-Pun and harm him as a result from finding Pun-Pun in the first place. Second, if Pun-Pun does intend to do all these 'blanket the world in AMF' and 'clone myself tons of times and kill everyone' shenanagans that you say he will, he'll never know any slayer of any real power (meaning only the low-level ones) exist. Since he doesn't know of those with the ability, he doesn't get it. (Well, he might, but it probably won't be easy) [Not Serious:]Third, if he does get it and pulls the AMF trick, he knows that he knows his own location is within the AMF, so he knows his own location and is purposefully putting down the AMF there, knowing it will (barely) limit him. He then doesn't know his location, so he is able to place said AMF without knowing he is in the location it affects and therefore harming himself, but not purposefully as before. Pun-Pun now believes that he doesn't exist, and winks out of existance as a result[/Not Serious] I would be careful when saying that pun-pun doesn't know this extradimensional space doesn't exist, FromTheShadows... with a very high knowledge the planes check he could know of it. Maybe so. I'm not the best at logic and drawing conclusions, I admit. I'm juggling this and a project I'm working on, so I don't have too much time to look into the real fineries of these things. So say something to get me back in check if I start to rant on something stupid. Also, even if he could target you with Life and Death, it emulates Destruction, and so is still a death effect. Immunity to death effects saves you here.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-06-05, 10:35 PM	This is begining to sound too much like Terminator. LOL! I forgot about that! It is exactly like terminator. Maybe I should re-name the build.
SoulGamit 12-06-05, 10:37 PM	Maybe I worded it wrong. It will stop things that will cause loss. If Pun-Pun will hurt you, disable you, or cause you loss in any way at any time as a result of detecting your location, he will never detect your location. So won't he know were you are up until he intends to cause you harm? Therefore, as soon as he stops knowing were you are, the split second actually, he can have his clones implode the dimension your in. That destroys you without knowing your location. Mind you, this is a readied action so you can't possibly move.
Elgonn 12-06-05, 10:37 PM	I always assumed that one of the very first things that Pun-Pun did was cast Sever Temporal Lifeline (AD&D 2nd Edition Chronomancer supplement) and become immune to any temporal effect. That book still might be the most recent rules on time, time travel, and paradoxes printed for the game.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-06-05, 11:00 PM	I always assumed that one of the very first things that Pun-Pun did was cast Sever Temporal Lifeline (AD&D 2nd Edition Chronomancer supplement) and become immune to any temporal effect. That book still might be the most recent rules on time, time travel, and paradoxes printed for the game. I think you would be hard pressed to apply 2nd ED rules to 3.5. Especially, since 2.0 uses THAC0... which is just whacked. So won't he know were you are up until he intends to cause you harm? Therefore, as soon as he stops knowing were you are, the split second actually, he can have his clones implode the dimension your in. That destroys you without knowing your location. Mind you, this is a readied action so you can't possibly move. What on earth are you two talking about? Cerebral Blind is pretty clear: it protects you from effects that gather information about your location (such as portfolio sense). There's no denial of sensory input; (that's covered by divine shield... which only protects one against remote sensing of a deity... it doesn't deprive one of all senses). Are we clear there? Also, what power causes a dimension to implode? I'm looking at the epic seeds and I don't see anything that can destroy or "implode" a plane. If you don't know how it can be done within the rules, please don't assume it can be. Ok, now for pun-pun's clone army. Fission Psychometabolism Level: Egoist 7 Display: Olfactory Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Effect: Duplicate of yourself Duration: 1 round/level (D) Power Points: 13 You can divide yourself, creating a duplicate that comes into existence 5 feet away. Your duplicate thinks and acts exactly as you do and follows your orders, although it will not do anything you wouldn’t do yourself. Your duplicate has all your abilities but none of your psionic or magical equipment (it does possess a duplicate of all your mundane equipment, clothing, armor, and implements, as well as mundane versions of any psionic or magical equipment you have). You and your duplicate evenly split your power points, your remaining usages of pertinent special abilities for the day, and so on. You retain your psionic focus, if you maintain such when this power is manifested. Treat your duplicate as yourself with two negative levels for the purpose of determining the powers to which the duplicate has access (while the duration of this power lasts, those negative levels cannot be removed by any means). Your duplicate has all other physical traits you had at the time you manifest this power. Powers, spells, or other effects affecting you when you manifest this power do not transfer to your duplicate. When the duration expires or when you dismiss the power, you and your duplicate rejoin, no matter how far from each other you are. You gain back any power points the duplicate has not spent. At the time of rejoining, you take half of the damage your duplicate has taken since this power was manifested. This damage could potentially leave you with negative hit points, but it can’t reduce your hit points to less than -9. If your duplicate dies before the duration expires, no rejoining occurs, and you gain one negative level. If you die, your duplicate remains in existence, and is for all intents you, but with two negative levels. (Once the duration expires, one of the negative levels immediately converts to one lost level; the other negative level can be removed by standard means.) You can have only one fissioned duplicate in existence at one time; your duplicate cannot use this power. You cannot use fusion or metaconcert with a duplicate, or share any other power or effect that pools abilities (the sum of you and you is still just you). Similarly, attempting to use powers such as claws of the vampire or vampiric blade to hurt your duplicate only damages your duplicate; these powers do not heal you. Empathic transfer and similar powers are likewise ineffective (transferring wounds to yourself isn’t a good healing strategy). All powers affecting a fissioned creature, either the original or the duplicate, end when the fission ends. All damage, including hit point damage, ability damage, ability drain, and ability burn damage, is added together. In the power description (in the sblock) you will see that the bolded material shows that pun-pun's clones cannot replicate themselves and only one such duplicate can be made. I suppose an epic version of fission could take away such a restriction, but I have not seen that. Also, I don't think one can use a teleportation effect to occupy a square that is occupied, but I can't find that reference right now.
SoulGamit 12-07-05, 12:20 AM	What on earth are you two talking about? Cerebral Blind is pretty clear: it protects you from effects that gather information about your location (such as portfolio sense). There's no denial of sensory input; (that's covered by divine shield... which only protects one against remote sensing of a deity... it doesn't deprive one of all senses). Are we clear there? Therefore you are immune to your own senses, and potentially your own thoughts (as in they can't be used) since they gather information about your location. You'll be hard pressed to kill anything without those. FromTheShadow's response to this is a literal and out of context meaning of the word "protect" that, if used, makes it even worse for you. Oh, and pun-pun doesn't use fission to make clones of himself if I remember correctly. He uses a monster's ability to do so, and make all the clones have an EX ability that make them loyal to pun-pun no matter what. I forget the monster used though.
Khan the Destroyer 12-07-05, 12:49 AM	Ah, I see. However you must realize something. If you set the time variable on your plane as a function of the material plane time it isn't actually time travel. For time travel to work one must have two independant time functions at work and the solution of the two is the current time at which you arrive. For example, time regression has the function t = -x, for some positive integer x. And the material plane has t = S(y) + C, for some positive integer y, where S denotes summation and C is some initial starting point. Set the two equal to eachother and solve for t, given x, y, and C. (x = one round, y = one round, C = current year in rounds - 1 round). The result is a 1 round movement backwards. However, in your system, the two functions are not independent. In fact as you word it "1 round = -1000 rounds on the material plane," which is a clear statement of mathematical dependancy. Since one round is equivalent to -1000 rounds moving from one plane to the other is equivalent. So also is moving back, you accomplish nothing as far as time travel is concerned. TG, I don't have a system :). Forget your theories or formulas. These are the rules of the game. Time traits allow Planes to do funky things. You can go to a Plane for 1 round and have a whole day pass on the Material plane. Likewise, you can go to a Plane for 1 round and have a whole day regress on the Material Plane. Planes have Time Traits, and Pun-Pun can mess with them. I think you're confusing timelines. In one timeline, where I did not go back yet to save my friend, he is dead. This timeline is the current time line. Once I start regressing to save my friend I create an effective new timeline. (I define time line to be a record of events past and present. The use of time regression changes the record of the past as well as possibly the future, so it creates a new time line by my definition.) Thus there is no intervention, it's just a seperate time line. If it is a seperate Timeline, then wouldn't Pun-Pun still be alive? All you would succeed in doing is killing some puny kobolds and creating a world where 1 kobold never existed. But you wouldn't ever kill Pun-Pun for two reasons. One, the original Pun-Pun that caused you to act still exists in a seperate timeline. And two, instead of killing him, you killed his ancestors. What you describe sounds ALOT like a grandfather paradox. It may be. I don't know :). I thought when that was referenced he was talking about going back beyond your birth. As for the Cerebral Blind silliness, well, it's silly. If you read it that literally, then you would be blind to yourself. You couldn't see, since you would know where you are, and you are immune to that. You couldn't do anything. How could you even get around when you don't even know where you are? Wherever you are, you wouldn't know. Further, if you allow that cheese, assume that Pun-Pun has it. Now try even thinking about killing him. You can't. Because you don't know about him. Further, I think a few more assumptions should be added to the OP. 1. That you know you cannot defeat Pun-Pun in his current state (in other words, you know all of his abilties). 2. That you know Pun-Pun's ancestral line. 3. That you know where and when Pun-Pun's acenstral line is located in space and time. Oh, and pun-pun doesn't use fission to make clones of himself if I remember correctly. He uses a monster's ability to do so, and make all the clones have an EX ability that make them loyal to pun-pun no matter what. I forget the monster used though. Actually, I was assuming Pun-Pun used Fission for his infinite clones. But TG stopped that one quick. I'll have to find another way. I'm sure there is one. Kudos for pointing out the flaw in that literal interpretation of the Slayer's ability :).
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-07-05, 12:59 AM	I won't use FromTheShadow's literal interpretation as it's a little dubius. Although I do like the use of cerebral blind. Let's go over what exactly cerebral blind does again, and how I am using it so that it won't cause any more trouble. I interpret "This ability protects against information gathering by clairsentience powers or effects that reveal location." to mean that it prevents clairsentience powers or effects from revealing the location of the Slayer. This interpretation stems from the context of the preceding sentence where it says: "a slayer is protected from all devices, powers and spells that reveal location." Since this is a description of a class ability is a fair assumption to assume that the one "protected" is the character who takes the class, unless it specifies otherwise. Is this a reasonable interpretation? I hope so. Please don't use out of context definitions, as they are exactly that "out of context" and should not be applied. So, basically, what I use this ability for is to protect myself from Pun-Pun's portfolio sense. Since portfolio sense is an information gathering effect that reveals location I am protected against it. When used in conjunction with divine shield, I am also invisible to his remote sensing. So, even though pun-pun can sense the manifestation of time regression, he cannot know its location or even view it. (This is because the manifestation is an instantaneous effect on my person (personal range), similar to my items and clothing. Anything in my personal effect is considered to be me, similar to an invisibility spell or other protection spells which protect the user... they also protect their personal effects.) Anyways, so say pun-pun detects the manifestation of a time regression a millenia in advance. He doesn't know where it will occur, nor who will do it. How could he react to such information? This is the premise of my build. Furthermore, it is assumed that my character exists, which means that pun-pun could not have slain me before I acted. This was an assumption given in the assumptions section. It is a fair assumption I think, as the existence of pun-pun himself is extremely improbable.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-07-05, 01:25 AM	TG, I don't have a system :). Forget your theories or formulas. These are the rules of the game. Time traits allow Planes to do funky things. You can go to a Plane for 1 round and have a whole day pass on the Material plane. Likewise, you can go to a Plane for 1 round and have a whole day regress on the Material Plane. Planes have Time Traits, and Pun-Pun can mess with them. I tried to prove this mathematically, but it appears you are immune to math, so here's the "rules." A greater deity can surely change the time traits of a plane in his godly realm, so you are right there. But if you would turn to page 168 in the DMG you under "creating your own cosmology" it gives rules for creating new time traits. In all of the possibilities (slow, fast, or erratic) time traits there is no "negative" time trait that is allowed. Thus, you cannot have the planar traits of which you speak. It simply isn't RAW. If it is a seperate Timeline, then wouldn't Pun-Pun still be alive? All you would succeed in doing is killing some puny kobolds and creating a world where 1 kobold never existed. But you wouldn't ever kill Pun-Pun for two reasons. One, the original Pun-Pun that caused you to act still exists in a seperate timeline. And two, instead of killing him, you killed his ancestors. It may be. I don't know :). I thought when that was referenced he was talking about going back beyond your birth. This is true, on a separate time line pun-pun may rule the universe. As further proof of this "time line" notion, please refer to the summon time duplicate epic spell where it discusses the "branching" nature of time... a trait which I was trying quite hard to describe, but never thought to apply the word "branching" to it. Anyways, you are absolutely correct that pun-pun would exist on another timeline. But, to me and my fellow multiverse, everyone thinks that there is no such thing as pun-pun and there never was. I have accomplished my mission. This build is really intended for a DM who wishes to rid themselves of a pun-pun in their campaign.... if ever such an instance did occur. This also assumes the DM is absolutely forbidden from using the rule zero for some reason. As we all know these things are purely academic. As for the Cerebral Blind silliness, well, it's silly. If you read it that literally, then you would be blind to yourself. You couldn't see, since you would know where you are, and you are immune to that. You couldn't do anything. How could you even get around when you don't even know where you are? Wherever you are, you wouldn't know. Further, if you allow that cheese, assume that Pun-Pun has it. Now try even thinking about killing him. You can't. Because you don't know about him. I quite agree, but I think you're putting others words in my mouth. I recently posted what *I* interpret cerebral blind to mean. I think you will find it significantly more reasonable. Further, I think a few more assumptions should be added to the OP. 1. That you know you cannot defeat Pun-Pun in his current state (in other words, you know all of his abilties). 2. That you know Pun-Pun's ancestral line. 3. That you know where and when Pun-Pun's acenstral line is located in space and time. I probably should add number 1 to the list, as there's a bit of metagaming going on in my build. One could use LoP's trick to gain knowledge of Pun-Pun and thereby dispense with the metagaming. Note I am not using LoP's trick for "prescience" just straight up knowledge of a being... which I believe is reasonable. One may make knowledge religion checks to know of a deity... in this case pun-pun. As to knowing all his powers... I need only know that one must evade his portfolio sense. Since the character is already a slayer, this person lucked out... It's a matter of probability. Pun-pun is improbable, and so is this guy... but when there are infinite kobolds and infinite (whatever race this guy is) the probability of a single occurrance isn't out of the question. Actually, I was assuming Pun-Pun used Fission for his infinite clones. But TG stopped that one quick. I'll have to find another way. I'm sure there is one. Kudos for pointing out the flaw in that literal interpretation of the Slayer's ability :). Well, I thought one might make an epic spell with the same effect, but I'm having a hard time finding it. Alternatively, you could use my legion trick (grant yourself the split ability of a protean scourge or a pudding). The problem with using such a technique is that the identical copy isn't under your control and may just very well decide that it wants to be the only god in the universe. Other than that I don't know how to help you there. Even if one could fill the multiverse as a function of time... a millenium would not suffice to fill even the infinite layers of the abyss. So, no beans on the attempt to "bump" into me by filling the multiverse. I've decide that my posts are utterly too mechanical... perhaps I should liven them up with a few smilies... :ayyyy!:
SoulGamit 12-07-05, 01:49 AM	I interpret "This ability protects against information gathering by clairsentience powers or effects that reveal location." to mean that it prevents clairsentience powers or effects from revealing the location of the Slayer. This interpretation stems from the context of the preceding sentence where it says: "a slayer is protected from all devices, powers and spells that reveal location." Since this is a description of a class ability is a fair assumption to assume that the one "protected" is the character who takes the class, unless it specifies otherwise. Is this a reasonable interpretation? I hope so. Please don't use out of context definitions, as they are exactly that "out of context" and should not be applied. So your going RAI? I seriously doubt that the slayer was intended to effect gods...
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-07-05, 02:01 AM	I am most certainly not going RAI! *indignant snort* ;) . Well for real though, I don't really understand how you can interpret "protect" like that and go to sleep at night. I also don't think your interpretation has any more validity... let me pull up another definition of protect. "Protect: to secure or preserve against encroachment, infringement, restriction, or violation." This definition also comes from dictionary.com, which I believe was the sited reference earlier. Anyways, it's rather clear from *this* definition that I am preserved or secured from effects and powers that gather information about my location, when applied to the text for CB. If you would STILL insist on the fact that CB prevents me from gathering information about the location of others then I say that it's a moot point. Once I have all the requisite information in my head I needn't see anything or think anything about location until I arrive at my desired time. Once there I am quite immune to the powers and effects of Pun-Pun... he cannot travel back as far as I can. Anyways... I think it's time to stop all this silly interpretation of CB and focus on what's important: it blocks effects that gather information about my location.
Khan the Destroyer 12-07-05, 02:30 AM	I tried to prove this mathematically, but it appears you are immune to math, so here's the "rules." I don't know if an attitude is intended. I wasn't trying to be frustrating. But if the rules say that something is allowed in game and you try and prove how normally in real life it wouldn't work... well, its the game that is immune to math. We can prove mathematically that no character could ever walk on clouds. But in the game, with a high enough skill check, you can. As it was, I thought you could indeed have a plane with a negative time trait. I was wrong. Not because of any formula, but because the rules do not say you can. A greater deity can surely change the time traits of a plane in his godly realm, so you are right there. But if you would turn to page 168 in the DMG you under "creating your own cosmology" it gives rules for creating new time traits. In all of the possibilities (slow, fast, or erratic) time traits there is no "negative" time trait that is allowed. Thus, you cannot have the planar traits of which you speak. It simply isn't RAW. I was going by memory from the Manual of the Planes. It gives the same example of the flowing time trait. I figured if you just set a negative number for the Material plane it wold work. But the DMG states that Flowing means faster or slower relative to the Material Plane. Drats. This is true, on a separate time line pun-pun may rule the universe. As further proof of this "time line" notion, please refer to the summon time duplicate epic spell where it discusses the "branching" nature of time... a trait which I was trying quite hard to describe, but never thought to apply the word "branching" to it. Anyways, you are absolutely correct that pun-pun would exist on another timeline. But, to me and my fellow multiverse, everyone thinks that there is no such thing as pun-pun and there never was. Agreed. However, since you as the manifester still hold knowledge of the future, wouldn't you still be aware that Pun-Pun exists? I have accomplished my mission. I'm not so sure. What you have accomplished is assuring that Pun-Pun never existed. You never actually killed him. Wether he was NI in power, or a measily 4th level kobold, you never encountered him. What you did do was slaughter a bunch of low level kobolds though. Your mission was to kill Pun-Pun. But how can you kill something that never existed? And yet still exists somewhen else? ;) I quite agree, but I think you're putting others words in my mouth. I recently posted what *I* interpret cerebral blind to mean. I think you will find it significantly more reasonable. I had read the interpretation and responded, I don't think I said anyone stated anything in particular. I just extended the interpretation to its consequences :). Though I do not think the ability was meant to thwart gods (and it is possible that the word 'effect' is tied to the term 'clairsentient' and not in general) I will agree that it is RAW. However, if we assume that works, Pun-Pun would have it. In which case, how would anyone know about Pun-Pun to attempt to kill him? I probably should add number 1 to the list, as there's a bit of metagaming going on in my build. I think another would be that Pun-Pun doesn't use his ability to create any spell/power or item. Since any of these can be of any power and could put a stop to any plans very easily. As to knowing all his powers... I need only know that one must evade his portfolio sense. Since the character is already a slayer, this person lucked out... It's a matter of probability. Pun-pun is improbable, and so is this guy... but when there are infinite kobolds and infinite (whatever race this guy is) the probability of a single occurrance isn't out of the question. What I meant was that this guy is apparently ticked off at the silly notion that Pun-Pun 'messed things up' (despite the fact that Pun-Pun has never been known to use his powers for really anything). Instead of trying to go kick his ass, he waits until he travels back in time to vent his anger. You know, when Pun-Pun can't really defend himself from a 17th level manifester ;). Well, I thought one might make an epic spell with the same effect, but I'm having a hard time finding it. Alternatively, you could use my legion trick (grant yourself the split ability of a protean scourge or a pudding). The problem with using such a technique is that the identical copy isn't under your control and may just very well decide that it wants to be the only god in the universe. Other than that I don't know how to help you there. Even if one could fill the multiverse as a function of time... a millenium would not suffice to fill even the infinite layers of the abyss. So, no beans on the attempt to "bump" into me by filling the multiverse. I was thinking about using the Create Creature SDA to create 1 HD creatures and then beefing them up with Manipulate Form. Pun-Pun can easily keep them beyond the power of deities without giving them Divine Ranks, and keep control of them with Control Mortal. Alternatively, he can use the Time Duplicate epic spell and make it permanent with Alter Reality. Since they come from an infinite number of possible futures, there are an endless number of them that he can create. And they are all Pun-Pun, so there is no power struggle. Which reminds me... As I stated earlier, Pun-Pun hasn't used his powers for anything except obtaining more powers. Yet here he is, being attacked relentlessly by people that have apparently slighted him, without even knowing of him :). So, maybe Pun-Pun should use his powers. Maybe Pun-Pun uses Schism to continuously pump up his Divine Ranks and uses his primary mind to gain control of every creature in the multiverse with Control Mortal. It will be like the Matrix after Smith took over, and Pun-Pun will just make everyone look like him :). So your going RAI? I would consider his interpretation to be Rules As Written. Arguing Rules As Intended would mean that we would think of wether or not the designers wanted to protect the Slayer from the gods. Chances are 'No', but the rules say otherwise. I'll have to think about this. The majority of this discussion has been about how to stop Pun-Pun from knowing this is going on. This would fall under the Know Secret SDA ability. The only problem is you have to target a creature. So, I couldn't do it without metagaming (*cough* unlike others *cough, cough* :)). EDIT: Another thought just crossed my mind. Since Pun-Pun is assumed to have all portfolios and domains, the effects created by the time-travelling Psion would be known to Pun-Pun before they happen. More later... I hope :).
Citizen Philip 12-07-05, 03:34 AM	There is no need to get into semantics over who can do what, when or what they could do. Occam's Razor solves all these problems. Whatever entity achieves infinite ability first, wins. A: You either exsisted before ascension (BA) and failed to stop it. B: You exsisted after ascension (AA)and are already under infinite dominion. An infinity entity achieves all, at the moment it is capable of infinite ability/replication. Discussing the motives of an infinite entity are also quite irrelevent, as it's already aware of all motives. P.S. Determining a method to undo an infinite entity after you are aware of such an entity puts you within the realm of A or B. You cannot attempt to undo something that does not exsist, if it exsists, it cannot be defeated. P.P.S. Giving an infinite entity a description, other than a title by which to call it is equally irrelevent: it is capable of infinite ability. The first 3.5 (3.0?) D&D infinite entity is something called a Pun-pun.
volratho 12-07-05, 05:15 AM	Ok here is the only paradox that I see... If you go back in time to kill Pun Pun's ancestors, and you succeed, then Pun Pun will never have existed in the future... thus you would never have had a reason to go back in time to kill his ancestors in the first place! Meaning you would never go back in time, but if you didn't go back in time, Pun Pun's ancestors would still be alive thus Pun Pun will be born afterall.... (so on and so forth) P.S. Don't you just love temporal mechanics :D
MonkeyGreatSEOH 12-07-05, 08:33 AM	Look, it's not too much to assume that everything must be within the RAW. In fact that's a basic assumption on this board. Often in my experience it isn't, and when it does goes outside the raw it usually isn't simply aassumed it will work. Also, everyone is born at a specific time... I gave pun-pun a whole millenia before I offed him. Really he could be in power for even longer than that the time he is in power is irrelevant. So are his abilities. And that's irrelevent. It's like saying someone in a coma can wear full plate +10. Pun-Pun simply cannot make an opposing check to this build. (Of course, I leave open the possibility that someone could beat my build, but as I sit right now this build seems to work) Pun-Pun doesn't really need to make an opposing check though. A lot of assumptions are being made here, like any peice of information no matter how hard to know, can be discovered via knowledge, that being killed via time travel doesn't make his Pun-pun sense tingle, that time travel even works like that, etc. I'd say the biggest problem I personally have with this is that this ONLY works if Pun-Pun is lazy or stupid. He's immortal and has infinite actions per round, and can do almost anything such as read a persons mind with which he could figure out your plan to moment you had it, or at least that you planned to get an ability that would block part of his powers. Really it only works if Pun-Pun isn't using his abilities to the fullest, which kind of makes the whole thing moot.
zavin 12-07-05, 09:01 AM	Just thought I'd point something out about genesis. From the SRD Genesis Metacreativity (Creation) Level: Shaper 9 Display: Material Manifesting Time: One week (8 hours/day) Range: 180 ft.; see text Effect: A demiplane coterminous with the Astral Plane, centered on your location Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: No Power Points: 17, XP You create a finite plane with limited access: a demiplane. Demiplanes created by this power are very small, very minor planes. This power works best when manifested while you are on the Astral Plane. Manifestation of this power creates a local density fluctuation that precipitates the creation of a demiplane. At first, the fledgling plane grows in radius at a rate of 1 foot per day to an initial maximum radius of 180 feet as it rapidly draws substance from the surrounding astral ectoplasm. Once the new demiplane reaches its maximum size, it doesn’t really stop growing, but its growth rate decreases to only 1 foot per week (approximately a 50-foot increase in radius per year). Once your demiplane is created, you can travel to it using astral caravan, plane shift, or some other power or permanent link that you arrange for separately. Pay attention to the two bolded parts. the Manifesting Time is 1 week, you can't stop partway through or the power would fail, so your demi-plane would have at least 180 feet to it. Oh, and on a side note, if someone could show me how to make those spoilers I'd appreciate it.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-07-05, 10:34 AM	Alright, it appears many of you are unsatisfied with my current list of assumptions. So I will here post a tenative list of assumptions additional to the first list... you may argue further if you like. *.) I know of pun-pun and the fact that he is an overdeity. I also know what being and overdeity means as far as porfolio sense. I know that I cannot defeat him in a face to face fight. That's all I got... As far as knowing about pun-pun's powers all I need to know is that I cannot face him in this time w/o being destroyed. This is given in the proposed assumption. Furthermore, I needn't know where or who his ancestors are because that merely requires a bardic knowledge check. See the bardic knowledge description it actually gives examples like: childhood name of a king etc, etc. With a high enough check I think it's possible to know who gave birth to pun-pun and when. I am actually killing pun-pun! Why? Because I still retain the knowledge of him when I go back. So to me the fact that he doesn't exist in my future is proof that I killed him. Just the same as if you killed someone. They will no longer exist in the future. I see a lot of you guys still making the mistake of pun-pun infinitacy. (sp?) People, how many bloody times do I have to say it: NI does not equal infinity. It never will until INFINITE time has progressed. Is the multiverse infinite? Yes, just look at the INFINITE planes of the abyss, not to mention that it explicitly states in the DMG that MOST planes are indeed infinite. So there's no such thing as infinite dominion, or infinite clones blanketing the multiverse, or infinite knowledge because pun-pun doesn't have it. Why wouldn't pun-pun know it was me who is doing all of this? That's the entire point of CB and divine shield, it gives me complete anonymity. Sure pun-pun can detect the manifestation of time regression, but how will he know where or who did it? (btw... Khan, I wasn't trying to be sassy or have an attitude... I was just a bit frustrated from all the other posts and I suppose that leaked over into my response...)
SoulGamit 12-07-05, 11:14 AM	Side Note: I got a kudos from Khan :cloud9: *cough* Anyways... "Protect: to secure or preserve against encroachment, infringement, restriction, or violation." This definition also comes from dictionary.com, which I believe was the sited reference earlier. Anyways, it's rather clear from *this* definition that I am preserved or secured from effects and powers that gather information about my location, when applied to the text for CB. If you would STILL insist on the fact that CB prevents me from gathering information about the location of others then I say that it's a moot point. Once I have all the requisite information in my head I needn't see anything or think anything about location until I arrive at my desired time. Once there I am quite immune to the powers and effects of Pun-Pun... he cannot travel back as far as I can. Yes, but the point is that in order for the power to work as written you must be protected from you gathering information about yourself, or you would lose anonymity from yourself. This means you'd have no senses, meaning that even if you had all the relevent information you couldn't make use of it because you would have no way of acting on it. I'm not so sure. What you have accomplished is assuring that Pun-Pun never existed. You never actually killed him. Wether he was NI in power, or a measily 4th level kobold, you never encountered him. What you did do was slaughter a bunch of low level kobolds though. Your mission was to kill Pun-Pun. But how can you kill something that never existed? And yet still exists somewhen else? I'm affraid that, if he can find a way to cast time regression an infinite number of times without pun-pun stopping him he has succeded, since time regression kills everything, reguardless of immunities because it "undoes" them. Killin pun-pun's ancestors is just to make sure he stays dead.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-07-05, 01:35 PM	Side Note: I got a kudos from Khan :cloud9: *cough* Anyways... Yes, but the point is that in order for the power to work as written you must be protected from you gathering information about yourself, or you would lose anonymity from yourself. This means you'd have no senses, meaning that even if you had all the relevent information you couldn't make use of it because you would have no way of acting on it. (whoopty-doo you got the kudos of Khan! Would you like some cookies to go along with that? :cookie: There ya go.) Where's Caelic the english guru when you need him. I think I understand, finally, what you're getting at. Are you saying that if I know myself that I would reveal myself to pun-pun? This may be true, but it's irrelevant. Pun-pun may know of me. He might even know every nitty gritty detail about me, but there is one thing he doesn't know: who manifested time regression and where it was done. He can know of the event, but to see who did it he must observe the location, which he cannot do for two reasons: divine shield blocks remote sensing and the location of the slayer (in which the thought and power occurred) is unknowable. So I don't need to deny myself knowledge or anything of the sort. To pun-pun I am one of many psi-gishes out there using a very nice PrC called Slayer. He cannot differentiate me from the infinite number of other psions and slayers in the multiverse, when it comes to determining who manifested that darn time regression. I hope this is a satisfactory explaination...
Chance Gibboney 12-07-05, 01:35 PM	In response to Pun-Pun has infinate actions... Can someone please explain to me how Pun-Pun gets more than 5 attacks +1 for haste and or speed weapon per round? It does say no-matter your BAB you can only have 5 attacks...and I am sure someone can make sure the exact wording. Even Ao the "Over-Diety" has 5 attacks... And if we arn't talking about attacks and just actions, well then he would still have to adhere to the 1 move and 1 standard action...even free actions as a diety, don't include attacks, and he still only gets a limmited number of free actions he can take...look in the Diety book, per divine rank. Like I asked before how did Pu-Pun ever get so powerful, gods would have badded together weeks before Pun-Pun would have gon through with this act and iraticated him. And lets just say for a second that he gets the powers of a god...that wouldn't make him a god...just because he is imitating there powers though some other power...he is still MORTAL. He can't take Divine rank with that UBER crap abuse of a power, hense Gods will kill him with Hand of Death or some other ability.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-07-05, 02:33 PM	Guys, it just occured to me how retarded I am. All this time I was looking for something with the wording: "blocks all effects" All I needed was a bloody initiate of the seven fold veil! Or a prismatic sphere... hmmm the possibilities are better now.
Khan the Destroyer 12-07-05, 02:34 PM	Alright, it appears many of you are unsatisfied with my current list of assumptions. So I will here post a tenative list of assumptions additional to the first list... you may argue further if you like. *.) I know of pun-pun and the fact that he is an overdeity. I also know what being and overdeity means as far as porfolio sense. I know that I cannot defeat him in a face to face fight. That's all I got... Which is itself a pretty big assumption. Considering only a handful of scholars know about overdeities according to the Deities and Demigods book. And Pun-Pun hasn't done anything to make his presence known. I even made a joke in the original thread that he had no followers because no one new about him. I understand that for this to work we have to assume that the psion knows about him, but it's a leap. Furthermore, I needn't know where or who his ancestors are because that merely requires a bardic knowledge check. See the bardic knowledge description it actually gives examples like: childhood name of a king etc, etc. With a high enough check I think it's possible to know who gave birth to pun-pun and when. Who is rolling the Bardic Knowledge check? And how do you even know that Pun-Pun used to be mortal? Or is a kobold from a certain region? Why wouldn't pun-pun know it was me who is doing all of this? That's the entire point of CB and divine shield, it gives me complete anonymity. Sure pun-pun can detect the manifestation of time regression, but how will he know where or who did it? Alright, let me try and explain SoulGamit's point on this. You are reading the ability as 'clairsentience powers and effects that reveal location'. As opposed to 'clairsentience power and effects that reveal location'. There is a problem when you assume that 'effects' encompasses everything that reveals location. The slayer's sight is an effect that causes him to reveal his own location. The slayer's thoughts reveal his own location. If the ability really protects against everything that reveals location, the Slayer cannot know where he is, or even see where he is. He would be forever lost. Because his ability protects him against his own ability to reveal his location. SoulGamit, if I got it wrong, please let me know. (whoopty-doo you got the kudos of Khan! Would you like some cookies to go along with that? There ya go.) Hey now, we're all friends here. Can someone please explain to me how Pun-Pun gets more than 5 attacks +1 for haste and or speed weapon per round? It does say no-matter your BAB you can only have 5 attacks...and I am sure someone can make sure the exact wording. Sure. Pun-Pun has a crapload of natural attacks. He can add tentacles to his body. And he can grab the Improved Rapidstrike feat for each pair of tentacles he has. Further, he can get his BAB to 20 if he wants to, and have Flurry of Blows for kicks. Even Ao the "Over-Diety" has 5 attacks... No one knows what Ao has. And if we arn't talking about attacks and just actions, well then he would still have to adhere to the 1 move and 1 standard action...even free actions as a diety, don't include attacks, and he still only gets a limmited number of free actions he can take...look in the Diety book, per divine rank. No. He can grab the Quickness ability of a Choker, the Dual Actions ability of an Aspect of Demogorgon, and the Dual Actions ability of a Chronotrynn. That would give him 3 Full Round actions and an extra move or standard action each round. Then he has 20 Free Actions and he can also get another mental standard action from a schism. Then there is the infinite action loop. Like I asked before how did Pu-Pun ever get so powerful, gods would have badded together weeks before Pun-Pun would have gon through with this act and iraticated him. Assuming he did anything to trigger their portfolio senses. And lets just say for a second that he gets the powers of a god...that wouldn't make him a god...just because he is imitating there powers though some other power...he is still MORTAL. He can't take Divine rank with that UBER crap abuse of a power, hense Gods will kill him with Hand of Death or some other ability. No. He gains Divine Ranks through the use of gods created by the Ice Assassin spell. TG, where do you get the infinite knowledge check from? As it stands, the builds you have do not have room for a high Bardic Knowledge check or an Infinite Loop.
Patashu 12-07-05, 02:38 PM	Ok here is the only paradox that I see... If you go back in time to kill Pun Pun's ancestors, and you succeed, then Pun Pun will never have existed in the future... thus you would never have had a reason to go back in time to kill his ancestors in the first place! Meaning you would never go back in time, but if you didn't go back in time, Pun Pun's ancestors would still be alive thus Pun Pun will be born afterall.... (so on and so forth) P.S. Don't you just love temporal mechanics :D Nope! Time Regression erases the future, there isn't a future to alter the past. The timeline will look like this; ------x--------y x = pun pun is born y = manifester prepares to go back in time After time manifestation the timeline will look like this: -----y Then the manifester kills pun-puns parents. Since the future has been erased the fact that pun-pun now never exists will NOT stop the manifester going back in time.
Chance Gibboney 12-07-05, 03:26 PM	Sure. Pun-Pun has a crapload of natural attacks. He can add tentacles to his body. And he can grab the Improved Rapidstrike feat for each pair of tentacles he has. Further, he can get his BAB to 20 if he wants to, and have Flurry of Blows for kicks. I am pretty sure you can only use one ability or feat at a time...but lets just say you get a tun of tentacles...even if you are Colossal you could still only have about as many attacks as that Eic creature that has 100 hands...there is just only so much room to put things, and you can only direct so many in one direction. Flurry of blows comes first, then to attack with am off-hand you would have to get Two Weapon Fighting so ok, maybe 9-10 attacks with furry of blows and off-hand. Plus 100 attacks that are distributed evenly around the body so maybe only 25 could attack in one arc...for a total of 35...not infinate! No one knows what Ao has. We know he is an overdiety...thus has all knowledge, and doen't need any ability other then Omniscence to know what Pun-Pun is planning... Despite the fact that he is under Scalykind domain, and Planning, and magic, and balance, and chaos, and Knowledge, and transformation, and Madness (since he would becoming mad with power), and Spell, and strength, and finally tyrant. Those are just the ones off the top of my head. I think the gods would know whats going on and what he is going to do. No. He can grab the Quickness ability of a Choker, the Dual Actions ability of an Aspect of Demogorgon, and the Dual Actions ability of a Chronotrynn. That would give him 3 Full Round actions and an extra move or standard action each round. Then he has 20 Free Actions and he can also get another mental standard action from a schism. Then there is the infinite action loop. Yes he gets "AN" extra standard "OR" move action. And "NO" he can't gain more then one ability or action more then once. They don't stack...they are the same ability, so the most you could gain is three extra actions...fine I give you that. Now you could just keep diving back into the books to get these powers after someone has figured away to beat you...you have to conceed at some point...at the game table you couldn't just say wait a sec lemmi find another rule to break and bend to my will, you would get 3 (1.2.3.) seconds to respond to an attack or another PC's or NPC's action...and you arn't taking that into consideration. The fact is Ao, or insert random other overdiety in here, would have informed the gods, his minions, to either kill you or taking the ability to use that ability away from you...gods are spitefull, you can't beat them, no amount of bending/breaking, or abusing the rules will allow for such a thing. Look at what the greek gods did to Atlas, they are jeolous and spitefull, and would stop at nothing to gain more power or to prevent some whelp from surpassing them. Oh...and why couldn't the gods, who have alter reality do the same thing...?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-07-05, 03:39 PM	Which is itself a pretty big assumption. Considering only a handful of scholars know about overdeities according to the Deities and Demigods book. And Pun-Pun hasn't done anything to make his presence known. I even made a joke in the original thread that he had no followers because no one new about him. I understand that for this to work we have to assume that the psion knows about him, but it's a leap. It's conceivable that the knowledge could be obtained. Regardless, I've added it the assumptions list. Alright, let me try and explain SoulGamit's point on this. You are reading the ability as 'clairsentience powers and effects that reveal location'. As opposed to 'clairsentience power and effects that reveal location'. There is a problem when you assume that 'effects' encompasses everything that reveals location. The slayer's sight is an effect that causes him to reveal his own location. The slayer's thoughts reveal his own location. If the ability really protects against everything that reveals location, the Slayer cannot know where he is, or even see where he is. He would be forever lost. Because his ability protects him against his own ability to reveal his location. SoulGamit, if I got it wrong, please let me know. Ah I see the problem now. Ok, Let's back up a bit and re-read the full description after the sentances in question. A few other enabling clauses include: "This ability even foils ........ when they are used to gather information about the slayer's location." "however, metafaculty can pierce this protective barrier." But to use metafaculty the creature must have been seen before. Upon review I think metafaculty poses a risk to the "terminator." "In the case of remote viewing or scrying attempts that scan the area an illithid slayer is in the illithid slayer simply isn't detected." In conclusion: I may be in a bit of trouble here, but right now I lack the motivation to care. Give me some more time to think on this. As for fitting in bardic knowledge and LoP's trick... mneh... I can always add levels as needed. I won't add them unless I have to though. I haven't quite gone through the optimization excersize to cram all that in under 20 levels, but I don't think that restriction need apply here.
Khan the Destroyer 12-07-05, 03:42 PM	Chance Gibboney, I'll respond to these, but this isn't the place to question Pun-Pun's power. Go to the original thread if you want to contend what he can and cannot do. This thread deals with TG's attempt to destroy Pun-Pun. Post what you feel helps or hinders his attempt. I am pretty sure you can only use one ability or feat at a time...but lets just say you get a tun of tentacles...even if you are Colossal you could still only have about as many attacks as that Eic creature that has 100 hands...there is just only so much room to put things, and you can only direct so many in one direction. Flurry of blows comes first, then to attack with am off-hand you would have to get Two Weapon Fighting so ok, maybe 9-10 attacks with furry of blows and off-hand. Plus 100 attacks that are distributed evenly around the body so maybe only 25 could attack in one arc...for a total of 35...not infinate! Pun-Pun isn't infinite. He is limitless. Note that I said 'crapload' in the post you quoted. That means 'a lot'. He can have as many attacks as he feels like devoting actions to giving himself more attacks. We know he is an overdiety...thus has all knowledge, and doen't need any ability other then Omniscence to know what Pun-Pun is planning... No. Overdeity does not mean omniscience. Otherwise Pun-Pun would have it. We stay by the books here. Yes he gets "AN" extra standard "OR" move action. And "NO" he can't gain more then one ability or action more then once. They don't stack...they are the same ability, so the most you could gain is three extra actions...fine I give you that. No they aren't the same thing. Quickness gives you an extra Standard or Move action each round. The Chronotrynn's ability is Supernatural, while Demogorgon's is Extraordinary. They are two different abilities. Now you could just keep diving back into the books to get these powers after someone has figured away to beat you...you have to conceed at some point...at the game table you couldn't just say wait a sec lemmi find another rule to break and bend to my will, you would get 3 (1.2.3.) seconds to respond to an attack or another PC's or NPC's action...and you arn't taking that into consideration. We've assumed a lot of things in the original Pun-Pun thread. Among other things, numerous actions in 1 round, a crapload of attacks per round, immunity to damage and magic, limitless ability scores, skill checks, saves, AC, attack rolls, etc. I will concede when I believe he has been defeated. It looks like that time is coming near. But note that even as he may be defeated now it is only with a handful of assumptions that give the attacker an advantage. Pun-Pun truly is unbeatable because of his DM-fiat-like abilities. And there is no 'response time' here. If an ability or combo is found that the attacker uses, it is safe to assume that Pun-Pun would use it as well. The fact is Ao, or insert random other overdiety in here, would have informed the gods, his minions, to either kill you or taking the ability to use that ability away from you...gods are spitefull, you can't beat them, no amount of bending/breaking, or abusing the rules will allow for such a thing. Look at what the greek gods did to Atlas, they are jeolous and spitefull, and would stop at nothing to gain more power or to prevent some whelp from surpassing them. Oh...and why couldn't the gods, who have alter reality do the same thing...? They can. I'll tell you what. Go start another thread about Pun-Pun where he doesn't exist. I'm sure it will be fascinating :).
Chance Gibboney 12-07-05, 04:11 PM	alflully touch yabout your little Pun-Pun. What is a DM-fiat-like ability?
Khan the Destroyer 12-07-05, 04:27 PM	alflully touch yabout your little Pun-Pun. Not at all really. I think its great that people are attacking and defending him. Even though I may not agree with some of the methods. Do not mistake the fact that your claims are wrong with me being touchy about Pun-Pun :). What is a DM-fiat-like ability? Pun-Pun can create any spell or power or artifact. He could easily stop any attempt at his life by creating an item that 'Prevents anyone from altering with time. Makes me exist at every moment in history and the future and present, even before I ascended. I cannot be harmed directly or indirectly in any way.' Stuff like that. We are assuming that this is not at his disposable since it would be sort of pointless.
SoulGamit 12-07-05, 05:17 PM	SoulGamit, if I got it wrong, please let me know. You got it right, and articulated it better then I, thanks. Sorry for any confusion/fustration I caused ya for lack of communication abilities, Tleilaxu_Ghola. (whoopty-doo you got the kudos of Khan! Would you like some cookies to go along with that? :cookie: There ya go.) What, no milk? :weep:
FromTheShadows 12-07-05, 06:25 PM	Alright, after this, assuming this all works out, I'll move the Slayer exploit to my own thread. Just a quick comment: I seriously doubt that the slayer was intended to effect gods... And I seriously doubt that, amusing as it is, kobolds can achieve ultimate power from an obscure creature at a low level. :P Now, for the people arguing for 'it kills your own senses' are missing a few words here. They see these: After reaching 6th level, a slayer is protected from all devices, powers, and spells that reveal location. This ability protects against information gathering by clairsentience powers or effects that reveal location. By doing so, you overlook one key part: After reaching 6th level, a slayer is protected from all devices, powers, and spells that reveal location. This ability protects against information gathering by clairsentience powers or effects that reveal location. Now, to understand this further, here's a few definitions: ProtectedKept safe or defended from danger or injury or loss (Synonym: Secure) (Antonym:Unprotected); Guarded from injury or destruction Synonyms to this: SecureFree from danger or attack; free form risk of loss; safe SavedRescued; guarded from injury or destruction Antonyms to this: UnprotectedOpen to assault, injury, damage, or theft Other: RevealTo make known; to bring into view; show LocationThe act or process of locating; a place where something is or could be located; a site Clearer yet? It protects against things that reveal location, right? Taking these definitions into account, it becomes: If something will cause damage, loss, injury, assault, theft, danger, or destruction because something is able to know, view, or show where you are or could be located, that knowing, viewing, or showing is negated. Your own vision and your own senses do not cause these things. They are not negative effects. They are not negated. Of course, with the one version of the word 'location', that means that you cannot be found while tracking someone, but that's not really important. Anyone can see you and detect you who will not cause you harm, loss, theft, damage, etc. Anyone who will hurt you will not. An example to help clear this a bit more: Say, for example, there is an insane mage somewhere. Let's call him Bob. For the first example, Bob is homicidal. He fireballs anyone he sees, finds, smells, etc. Assume our Slayer is in the forest when Bob comes wandering through. Bob does not find the Slayer, as Bob only will hurl his fireball if he finds someone to hit in the first place. Therefore, our Slayer is safe, unless someone is standing next to him. For the second example, Bob is a simple pyromanic. He enjoys watching things burn down, especially things that are either durable or long lasting. In this case, our Slayer is in the forest, leaning on a particularly old and hardy tree. Bob sees said tree, which he fireballs, hurting our Slayer, who comes around the other side of the tree, now a bit warmed-up compared to before. Bob, though, was only interested in destroying said old and durable tree, not the Slayer. Bob sees the Slayer come around the corner, but Bob is not concerned with our Slayer's appearance (as he isn't really old or durable). Bob promptly teleports away. For the third example, Bob is a kleptomanic. Bob cannot find our Slayer, as he would steal from our Slayer if he could find him. For the fourth, Bob is afraid of rats. Bob could care less about our Slayer, as he is neither a rat nor an enemy. Bob sees our Slayer, doesn't give him a second thought, and they go their separate ways and never see each other again. One thing though: why do people seem to fall back on the "Pun-Pun lets out an armpit fart and destroys all of reality" card instead of refuting some of the arugments meant to destroy him? You can say this, but it should be explained if you do. At least I'm trying to explain this absurdity here. For those arguing that this causes a paradox, it doesn't seem to happen: You can regress apparent time 1 round into the past. In effect, you “replay” the previous round of activity. The power regresses time to the point along the time stream just prior to your previous turn, undoing the effects of everyone else’s actions in the meantime. Once you have used time regression, only you retain knowledge of what happened during the round that is being replayed; however, you can communicate that knowledge verbally to your companions, if desired. During the round that you live through a second time, you can act on knowledge you previously gained by already living through the immediate future. In all likelihood, you’ll probably not choose to manifest time regression during your second pass through the time stream, instead taking completely new actions, but you pay the XP cost all the same. To me that says that you can use your knowledge to change the 'old' future. Now, I know that people would see it reasonable to use this power to save a friend that dies in the round, right? If this caused a paradox, you would never go back in time to save the dying friend because you saved him and he would not have died. Yeah, the Slayer thing is looking quite shaky, and I might just abandon it soon if enough holes spring up to sink it.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-07-05, 06:49 PM	No offense to FromTheShadows, but I would prefer it if this argument over meaning did not resort to finding the definitions of words. As is the argument below does not have such a dependancy, save one part Alright. Basically it boils down to the interpretation of cerebral blind. If I can't convince you all that it behaves as I will illustrate in a moment, then I must search for another form of protection. (Currently I am looking at prismatic sphere and initiate of the seven fold veil.) I think it's good that the entire ability be quoted once more for clarification. Cerebral Blind (Su) After reaching 6th level, a slayer is protected from all devices, powers, and spells that reveal location. This ability protects against information gathering by clairsentience powers or effects that reveal location. The ability even foils bend reality, limited wish, miracle, reality revision, and wish when they are used to gain information about the slayer’s location (however, metafaculty can pierce this protective barrier). In the case of remote viewing or scrying that scans an area a slayer is in, the effect works, but the slayer simply isn’t detected. Remote viewing or scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at a slayer do not work. This ability is active as long as the slayer is psionically focused. The sentence in question is the bolded one. Taken out of context it may mean two things, but lets not take it out of context because that destroys its meaning. The first sentence makes it clear that no device, power, or spell can reveal the slayer's location. While this is a powerful sentence it has no bearing on pun-pun's supernatural location determining effect known as portfolio sense. The second sentence is followed by a list of spells and powers of the general or universal schools. Furthermore it goes on to say that these powers/spells fail to locate the slayer if used for that purpose. Note that the preceding sentence (the bolded one) says that clairsentience powers and effects fail to pierce this protection. But the following list does not contain only clairsentience effects/powers, it contains general/universal spells and powers. One might say well that's because the list of spells/powers is referring to the first sentence, but the first sentence only protects the slayer from effects that "reveal" the location of the slayer, not ones that "gather information" about the location of the slayer. The list of powers/spells given in the third sentence falls under that second category. For further proof that these powers do indeed fall under the "gathering information" category, one need only look at the red text in the quote. This shows that WotC means that these powers can create effects that gather information about the location of the slayer. This third sentence is merely a clarification for those who might not properly read the second sentence, thinking that a wish, which is not of the clairsentience school, might penetrate the slayer's protection. Therefore, we can infer that the curious phrase "clairsentience powers and effects" should not be read as powers and effects of the clairsentience school that gather information about the location of the slayer, but as powers of the clairsentience school and effects that gather information about the slayer's location. This is the only way to justify the list of powers that are given in the third sentence, as none of them are powers that "reveal" the location of the slayer or are in the clairsentience school. Proof of this fact is given in the descriptions of Bend Reality, Wish, and Miracle to some degree. All of the aforementioned powers contain a clause similar to this "the user may produce any effect they wish, within these guidlines, but not necessarily restricted to..." So, if wish were used to produce an effect that gathers information about the whereabouts of the slayer it would fail because it is an effect used to gather information about the slayer's location. To dispense with the idea that the slayer would then be blind, deaf, and dumb to his own location. [EDIT]: PLEASE REFER TO A LATER POST ON THIS PAGE WHICH ADDRESSES THIS ISSUE BETTER. Finally, one should note that an important exception is given: metafaculty. Metafaculty is a very potent and powerful psionic power that could give pun-pun an incredible amount of information about our slayer. Including what he is thinking at the current moment and what powers/spells he has cast/manifested recently. Yikes! That's almost as bad as the know secrets SDA or perhaps even worse. The catch with metafaculty is that the person must have been seen at one point in time and it must be known who you are trying to research via the spell. Pun-pun could very well have seen me before, which means he can manifest this power on me. However, he should have a good justification for doing so... as I'm just one of an infinite mob. I look forward to an interesting discussion on the effects of metafaculty on this build... My definitions for certain key words. Power = a thing which is described in the psionics handbook and is akin to a spell. Powers are manifested. Spell = Something found in many books, it must be "cast." Device = a object with certain properties that may be magical or mundane. Effect = a catch all phrase describing any sort of action, state of being, or adjective. For example: the dragon has under a polymorph EFFECT. Protection/Protect = A verb that means to hinder or somehow prevent a specified action. Generally protection is granted to a subject from some sort of Effect (See above).
FromTheShadows 12-07-05, 07:03 PM	No offense to FromTheShadows, but I would prefer it if this argument over meaning did not resort to finding the definitions of words. As is the argument below does not have such a dependancy, save one part No offense taken. In retrospect, I'm being a bit nitpicky there. I think I'll stop with my rabid defense of the whole Slayer issue, and not try to grasp at straws here. Sorry if I've been a bit extreme or offended anyone. Including what he is thinking at the current moment and what powers/spells he has cast/manifested recently. Yikes! That's almost as bad as the know secrets SDA or perhaps even worse. The catch with metafaculty is that the person must have been seen at one point in time and it must be known who you are trying to research via the spell. Metafaculty doesn't find what you're thinking. If it did, Cerebral Immunity would defeat it. Cerebral Immunity notes no exceptions, unlike Cerebral Blind. Metafaculty finds the following things: * Its name, race, alignment, and character class. * A general estimate of its level or Hit Dice: low (5 HD or lower), medium (6 to 11 HD), high (12 to 20 HD), very high (21 HD to 40 HD), or deific (41 HD or higher). * Its location (including place of residence, town, country, world, and plane of existence). * Significant items currently in its possession. * Any significant activities or actions the creature has undertaken in the previous 8 hours, including details such as locales traveled through, the names or races of those the creature fought, spells it cast, items it acquired, and items it left behind (including the location of those items). * A current mental view of the creature, as described in the remote viewing power, which you can maintain for up to 1 minute per level.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-07-05, 07:11 PM	It's alright FromTheShadows, it's rather lonely on my side of the fence... Few people are rooting for the underdog at the moment. I guess everyone likes an easy bet. Anyways, I still appreciate your input, even if I disagree with it sometimes. For the rest of y'all... you may respond to either defense of the slayer's abilities (mine or FromTheShadow's). Though in the end, I believe the burden of proof lies on me.
SoulGamit 12-07-05, 07:41 PM	It's alright FromTheShadows, it's rather lonely on my side of the fence... Few people are rooting for the underdog at the moment. I guess everyone likes an easy bet. Anyways, I still appreciate your input, even if I disagree with it sometimes. For the rest of y'all... you may respond to either defense of the slayer's abilities (mine or FromTheShadow's). Though in the end, I believe the burden of proof lies on me. For the record, I care more about the fight then the outcome, I just enjoy things like this. To dispense with the idea that the slayer would then be blind, deaf, and dumb to his own location. The ability description makes no mention of this being a protection against his own abilites, rather it says clearly "a slayer is protected against..." Which implies in normal english that the slayer is has the ability to block incoming effects that do some thing which is described later. I suppose that if one insists that this is still the case, our slayer could manifest metafaculty to determine his location. And use solicit psi-crystal to observe himself while he manifests away. Of course this is silly, but if you insist then I will fight silly with silly. The ability also doesn't say it protects you from other's effects, it just says effects. I'm a tad iffy now, you do make a strong case for the implication, but it is still that, an implication. From the SRD Metafaculty is defeated by epic powers, epic spells, and epic special abilities that obscure divinations and clairsentience powers. The slayer's ability is defeated by metafaculty, which is defeated by epic abilities, therefore, it is implied that that ability is also defeated by epic effects. Yes, I know it isn't RAW, but it is implied. On another note, how are you getting metafaculty and time regression on the same person?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-07-05, 08:30 PM	To SoulGamit: Forgive me, I thought since you've been so opposed to this build from the get-go that you were indeed against it... Anyways, to address your issues. When reading any text you must divine its "implication" or meaning in order to understand it. There is never a perfectly obvious interpretation to any thing, but there are interpretations that have more support than others. You say that my interpretation makes a strong case. If you can make a stronger one your interpretation would win. That's how it must be done with any rules. So to say that my interpretation is only an "implication" doesn't refute its validity. In any case, the purpose of my interpretation was solely to determine whether or not the authors meant: "powers and effects of the clairsentient school that gather information about location" or "powers of the clairsentient school and effects that gather information about location." Either interpretation is valid, althought I think I've supported the second one rather well. Anyways, it seems you won't accept precedence as a valid argument for interpreting "protection." Fair enough, precedence isn't a written rule. I have the following solution to this matter: 1.) The cerebral blind needn't be up at all times. It need only be up whenever the terminator thinks about pun-pun in any way shape or form, or when he is thinking about time regression. Once he is in the "thinking/manifesting" mode he needn't know his own location. He may be a bit bewildered that he is deprived of his senses, but as we know such deprivation does not prevent manifestation. Upon review of the metafaculty rules... which are quite strange (you become an ectoplasmic sensor?!) I couldn't use my item and maintain that form. So scratch the solution I originally presented. The one in this post has been my stand-by for quite some time now, and I don't see any flaws in it... but that may be my ego coming in the way. Oh, and you cannot say that because metafaculty pierces this and metafaculty cannot pierce epic protections that this is pierced by epic spells/effects. Wish contains no clause that it doesn't pierce epic protections, but it cannot pierce the CB. In this case I think Metafaculty was made to be a balancing exception... Either way, your argument contains the post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy... WHAT'S LEFT? It basically comes down to this guys... if I can convince you all that the terminator is able to evade pun-pun's location sensing ability and that he remains anonymous by doing so, then I believe this excersize is concluded. It has been shown that if pun-pun cannot find the manifestor via portfolio sense or remote sensing, then he must try to "fill the multiverse" in search of him. It can also be easily shown that this technique will not work no matter how many rounds pun-pun can squeeze off. By the time pun-pun is done replicating or nearly done... which isn't even close enough... I have undone his replication and he must start all over again. And he will do so with no knowledge of having done so in the previous round. After that all I think I have left to convince you all is that I have killed pun-pun. Verily, it is a matter of perspective. But since I retain the knowledge of a pun-pun that was and know that pun-pun is no more, to me pun-pun has been dispatched. Yes, pun-pun may exist in other timelines, but he will never be able to cross over to this timeline. The act of crossing over to a new timeline creates a new timeline, and thus you cannot enter alternative timelines. Therefore, I have rid pun-pun from my timeline and all is good to me.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-08-05, 01:37 PM	Here's a new interpretation that would enable the slayer to see himself while psionically focused. The CB description prohibits powers/spells/devices that REVEAL his location. This is powerful because powers that reveal location would include trueseeing (while invisible) eradicate invisibility and the like. However, the description draws a line between powers/spells/devices that reveal and those powers/effects that gather information about location. Why is this an important difference? Because wish/miracle/bend reality and other effects may be used to learn the location by gathering information. For example one could also word a wish to be "where is the slayer now?" No matter where they are in the multiverse. The answer would be some location, but CB prevents an answer from returning. The same is true for pun-pun's portfolio sense (which is an effect) that essentially says: "for event X that I just sensed where and when did it occur?" Pun-pun would learn that time regression was cast at some date X but he wouldn't know where it was cast because it was cast on the slayer by the slayer (whose location is unknowable). A key difference between pun-pun's portfolio sense and seeing someone with your own eyes is that "the deity receives no sensory information about the event." The deity must view the slayer with remote viewing (if he were able to guess the location) to do so. Even if he were to do so he wouldn't see beyond the divine shield, which blocks remote sensing. So, one could draw a line of distinction between sensory input and information gathering effects. Clearly trueseeing is not an information gathering effect, but it is a revealing power/spell and thus the slayer is immune to it. Sensory information is also revealing, but it does not fall under the category of power/spell/device. Thus one can still see a slayer. This of course makes a whole lot more sense.
SoulGamit 12-08-05, 02:53 PM	Pun-pun would learn that time regression was cast at some date X but he wouldn't know where it was cast because it was cast on the slayer (whose location is unknowable). So, one could draw a line of distinction between sensory input and information gathering effects. Clearly trueseeing is not an information gathering effect, but it is a revealing power/spell and thus the slayer is immune to it. Sensory information is also revealing, but it does not fall under the category of power/spell/device. Thus one can still see a slayer. This of course makes a whole lot more sense. All right, taking these, can't he just cast metafaculty on you? He has a truly infinite spot and listen check (through the infinite damage trick) so chances are, he saw and/or heard about you even if he didn't think anything of it at the time. He'd know who you are, but not were you are.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-08-05, 03:01 PM	Yes, it is entirely possible that he could have seen or heard of my by virtue of not only his NI spot/listen checks but by remote viewing me at some point in the past. The question is though, how does he know it was me who cast the time regression? He knows of the event, but not where it occurred and he cannot se e who did it. Therefore he would have to metafaculty everyone in existence. This doesn't work for similar reasons to the expansion theory. Since there is infinite space in the multiverse there could be infinite people. Even if a fraction of those people were psions 5% of infinity is still infinity. So, he cannot possibly metafaculty everyone in existence. It is true that this basically comes down to a matter of probability, but if he has a finite number of actions and divides those actions by an infinite number of possibilities he will only acheive a near 0% probability of success. He could get lucky, but with such low odds I feel that I am justified. I might work out a system whereby even metafaculty cannot penetrate the psion, but I don't want to introduce anymore assumptions... and I am loth to give this guy more levels than necessary. The trick I would use is a prismatic sphere, which blocks all divination spells. By the clarity rule, things that prevent divination spells also prevent clairsentient school powers. Thus, a prismatic sphere could protect me from metafaculty. I am not sure though how to work this spell into my build efficiently.
Prominence 12-08-05, 03:11 PM	Since there is infinite space in the multiverse there could be infinite people That's does not mean there ARE infinitely many people in the multiverse, though. It only means they have an infinite amount of space to occupy. If anything, it's plausible that there is a finite amount.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-08-05, 03:23 PM	Hmmm... you do bring up a good point prominence. I suppose I always assumed there were infinite creatures in the multiverse. [EDIT]: Upon re-reading metafaculty for the fortieth time, I think that it could penetrate a prismatic sphere effect. So I will need to settle for a more RAW effect to block it: Epic protection. The current build would then look something like this: Nomad8/Slayer10/NomadXXX Where XXX is the number of levels needed to acquire the epic spell to block divination effects... The power would use the warding seed (base DC 14) and would exclude only a specific set of spells and effects: metafaculty. I would word the spell like spell immunity is worded, except it would only apply to metafaculty. The DC increase for such a spell would be 18 (2 per spell level for a specific set or specific spell). For a total of 32 (easily accomplished by a psion of 23 level). The protection would need only last for 1 round and it would need only have a casting time of one free action (I should check the DC increase for that). Problems I foresee with this: a supernatural version of metafaculty. I'm not sure how to avoid this. I'm still looking for some evidence that there are indeed infinite creatures in the multiverse. Hehe, reading throught the planar descriptions I found a battlefield where a fighter build could defeat the mighty pun-pun. If the battle took place on the concordant domain of the outlands 100 miles from the spire, none of pun-pun's magical effects or divine powers would function. I don't know how this could be done, but it would strip much of pun-pun's advantages. Incidentally, this is also a perfect place to sit and plot against pun-pun. No divination or scrying effects would enter the area and no divine abilities function near the spire (within 100 miles). Check it out, it's in the DMG towards the end of the specific planes section.
Khan the Destroyer 12-09-05, 02:41 PM	[EDIT]: Upon re-reading metafaculty for the fortieth time, I think that it could penetrate a prismatic sphere effect. So I will need to settle for a more RAW effect to block it: Epic protection. The current build would then look something like this: Nomad8/Slayer10/NomadXXX Where XXX is the number of levels needed to acquire the epic spell to block divination effects... The power would use the warding seed (base DC 14) and would exclude only a specific set of spells and effects: metafaculty. I would word the spell like spell immunity is worded, except it would only apply to metafaculty. The DC increase for such a spell would be 18 (2 per spell level for a specific set or specific spell). For a total of 32 (easily accomplished by a psion of 23 level). The protection would need only last for 1 round and it would need only have a casting time of one free action (I should check the DC increase for that). This opens up Epic spells to Pun-Pun as well. He could make an epic version of Metafaculty that bypasses your Epic Ward. Or make an Epic spell that protects him from the machinations of time travellers. Further, if your protections last 1 round, the Pun-Pun that still exists in the round that you just regressed to could still sense you. Not so much an issue if you have Cerebral Blind, but just a point. I don't think it matters since the only way to use Metafaculty would be to metagame. Hehe, reading throught the planar descriptions I found a battlefield where a fighter build could defeat the mighty pun-pun. If the battle took place on the concordant domain of the outlands 100 miles from the spire, none of pun-pun's magical effects or divine powers would function. I don't know how this could be done, but it would strip much of pun-pun's advantages. A fighter build? Pun-Pun would still have all of his Extraordinary abilities (Regeneration, Fast Healing, Damage Reduction, etc.) and his NI ability scores. Plus his NI HD. And a whole slew of other abilities. I have to admit that this build does succeed in creating a timeline without Pun-Pun. Mostly due to the nature of the Time Regression power and the assumption that this psion was epic before Pun-Pun was born. Out of curiousity, since you are assuming that the psion somehow knows all about Pun-Pun, his life, where he used to live, and his ancestral line... why not just kill him in the past? Why bother with the time travelling at all? It doesn't really seem to serve a purpose. The psion is powerful enough to kill a couple of kobolds in the past anyway, so what is the point of using Time Regression?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-09-05, 03:26 PM	Well, I may have run across all this info about pun-pun when I talked to a bardic scholar of overdeities. There are a few ways I may have arrived the knowledge of pun-pun (LoP's trick being one way). Regardless, I may not have known at the time before pun-pun's ascention of pun-pun. And it was perhaps only a millenium later before I discovered this method to eliminate him. The new place to plot his demise is 100 miles near the spire (mentioned earlier). Anyways, the point of this excersize is to defeat pun-pun after he has ascended... although it does so in a round about way. Personally, I think that the terminator method is the only way to destroy pun-pun post ascention. Because any infinite loop trick that outstrips pun-pun's loop may be used by pun-pun himself. I've wracked my brain, but I seriously think that the terminator is the build that entails the fewest assumptions possible to defeat pun-pun. (After he has ascended that is). I still think the CB trick is a little in the air, which is why I've started a new thread to analyze that portion alone. Once that component is proven, everything else falls into place. Unless you pose some new opposition that I have not foreseen.
SoulGamit 12-09-05, 03:42 PM	Note that pun-pun wouldn't have to metagame to use metafaculty. He could use miracle or Wish to find out who (not were) is casting time regression and then use metafaculty on that person.
FromTheShadows 12-09-05, 04:22 PM	Note that pun-pun wouldn't have to metagame to use metafaculty. He could use miracle or Wish to find out who (not were) is casting time regression and then use metafaculty on that person. Alright, I keep seeing this "Pun-Pun detects you going back in time after you do it" thing, and I don't see any logic in it. First of all, every person who ever casts time regression would come under his scutiny in this way then, again implying metagaming as Pun-Pun can't scan absolutely every person who does so. If the senses occur after the time regression power happens, they never occur. You go back before said senses ever trigger. Pun-pun can't find you by doing this unless you somehow stay in the same round while his senses trigger and simulantaneously travel to the last round, which, of course, is rediculous and does not happen.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-09-05, 04:55 PM	You are correct FromTheShadows, but you've overlooked on thing: the act of manifestation. Pun-Pun can detect the act of manifestation of any power or spell or ability millenia in advance. If one of those manifestations interests him (like the act of casting time regression), then he will investigate it through his remote sensing ability. Without time regression pun-pun would know which events will occur and which probabilities don't pan out. But time regression goes back in time and opens up a whole new set of possibilities. The new branch of time is separate from the old branch and may or may not continue down the same path. There are two ways of looking at it: 1. Pun-pun senses the future as a whole and knows the effect of the time regression. 2. Pun-pun cannot see beyond the time regression because it causes a break in the time line. What about time regressions that happen in the past? Ahhh... there we have arrived at a tricky question. Time regressions never happen in the past, because all knowledge of their occurance in the future is erased. So pun-pun couldn't look back and see his ancestoral line broken because that would mean it had already happened and pun-pun does not exist. To explain this we have to think about a "future past" This past does not happen in until some future date, which implies that this past is on a seperate time line altogether. Thus, we must conclude that timelines are broken with the casting of time regression and that pun-pun cannot see past a time regression. This still doesn't stop pun-pun from sensing the end of a timeline and investigating the cause of that end. The entire point of the terminator is that when pun-pun tries to investigat the cause of the break he cannot find where it occured and who did it. This will probably be a frustrating thing for pun-pun, but as far as I know he cannot do anything about it. Little does he know that beyond the break is his inevitable demise.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-09-05, 04:59 PM	Note that pun-pun wouldn't have to metagame to use metafaculty. He could use miracle or Wish to find out who (not were) is casting time regression and then use metafaculty on that person. Whoa! That's a good solution. Now it is imperative that I find a means to foil metafaculty. Sorry I didn't see that before I posted earlier... Problem Solved: Mindblank. The relevant text is bolded. Mind Blank, Psionic Telepathy [Mind-Affecting] Level: Psion/wilder 8 Display: Olfactory Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One creature Duration: One day Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Power Resistance: Yes (harmless) Power Points: 15 The subject is protected from all devices, powers, and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This power protects against powers with the mind-affecting or scrying descriptors. Psionic mind blank even foils bend reality, limited wish, miracle, reality revision, and wish when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it (however, metafaculty can pierce the protective quality of psionic mind blank). In the case of remote viewing or scrying that scans an area the creature is in, the effect works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Remote viewing (scrying) attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.
FromTheShadows 12-09-05, 06:12 PM	You are correct FromTheShadows, but you've overlooked on thing: the act of manifestation. I didn't overlook it; I just referred to the fact that he can't sense the event after it happens and respond then. As for the wish/metafaculty blocking, you already found that ability within the IotSV's veils. If you want to keep the anonymity afforded by slayer, just have a cohort use the area of effect version of the veil around you. Or, just manifest Fusion and use the personal veils on the combiniation of you/cohort. Fusion does mention that class abilties are shared, anyways. Or, then again, if it is pierced only by epic powers, that's a problem still. At least it still foils the wish to learn who you are though. If you somehow get an infinite caster level, Pun-Pun can't find you though: Metafaculty can defeat spells, powers, and special abilities such as screen or mind blank (or even a wish spell) that normally obscure clairsentience powers. You can attempt a caster level check (DC 6 + caster level of the creator of the obscuring effect) to defeat these sorts of otherwise impervious defenses. Yet again, the 'only nigh-infinite' Pun-pun issue arises here. If he is still only nigh-infinite vs. infinite caster level, you can remain undetected.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-09-05, 06:17 PM	Sorry, I mis-read your post. I see now that we were saying the same thing. :doh: I think I solved the problem of wishing for the location of the caster of time regression. Mind blank prevents wish from gaining any information about the subject via a spell/power/device. Wish falls under one of those categories (spell/power/device).
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-16-05, 03:02 PM	I think the cerebral blind interpretation has been solved in a manner which is beneficial to this build. I inquired via Customer Service, and the conversation is replicated in the "Rules Question?: Cerebral Blind" Thread. Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8020357#post8020357)
Always-Late 12-19-05, 12:16 AM	If we're sticking with the astral plane = out of time, what if Pun-pun was raised by Gith on the Astral Plane?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-19-05, 12:30 AM	Oh, I've long since abandoned the astral plane = out of time. I don't need to use time evasion any more. The item, me, and my levels were manufactured before pun-pun was born. The thought to kill pun-pun was manufactured while I hid behind my divine shield/cerebral blind/ring of sequester and so was the deed of his undoing. It's currently under question whether or not pun-pun can gain NI divine ranks, but for this build I'll just go ahead and assume it can be done.
axenome 01-31-06, 05:13 AM	Ummm... I realize I am exposing my ignorance.... but WHO the :Censored: is Pun-Pun? Is he related to Sluggy Freelance?
lostone 01-31-06, 10:17 AM	Ummm... I realize I am exposing my ignorance.... but WHO the :Censored: is Pun-Pun? Is he related to Sluggy Freelance?Only the most powerful character. EVER. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801) Bow before him, he is the new Overdeity of D&D.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 01-31-06, 01:00 PM	A quick overview of changes to come: 1. I plan to drop the Cerebral Blind thing, as the rules for it are too sketchy. 2. I will keep the time regression trick. This is at the core of the build. 3. I plan on dropping the whole idea of "evading" pun-pun, and plan to replace it with an immunity build. Here's my new build in it's infantile form. Self-imposed restriction: 3.5 material or 3.0 updated material only. Keep on your toes, I may just change this build on a whim. ECL 34 Race: Half Black Half Blue Half Battle Dragon Elan Build: Cleric: Domains (Magic, Travel), Extend Spell Wizard: (Scribe Scroll) Wizard: Wizard Psion Nomad Psion Nomad Psion Nomad Cerebremancer Cerebremancer Cerebremancer Cerebremancer Cerebremancer Cerebremancer Cerebremancer Cerebremancer Cerebremancer Cerebremancer Dweomer Keeper Dweomer Keeper Dweomer Keeper Dweomer Keeper Psion Nomad Psion Nomad Psion Nomad Psion Nomad What I still need or would like to have: *A burrow speed (extraordinary) or earthglide. *Reduction of Templates would be nice *Reduction of Level: So as to get 9th level arcane, and psionics. I also need 4 levels of dweomerkeeper. Tricks Employed: 1. Ice Assassin: I need to create an ice-assassin for this build to work. I can cast it as a supernatural spell (1/day) to eliminate the need for components. I will create an ice assassin of a greater deity (pick one) and command him to construct his godly realm in a certain fashion (to be outlined below). I will then command the god to create an Aleax of me, however I also command the god to restrain this Aleax, forbidding the Aleax to attack me. 2. Wish abuse: See the original build. I also now use this trick to manufacture powerstones of mind-switch. 3. Mind-switch: I need to switch with the Aleax of myself (hereafter referred to as the Aleax). This is tricky because of the Aleax has immunity to mind-affecting effects. The Aleax is not, however, immune to polymorphing. In fact Aleax are able to use shapechange at will, which would certainly imply this. I polymorph my Aleax via polymorph any object into a human. This revokes his immunity to mind-affecting abilities as that was simply a result of his type (construct). I now use a powerstone of mind-switch to switch with the Aleax (now a human). I now gain the Aleax's extraordinary abilities (which includes the single target ability). The Aleax, now in my old body, is destoyed by my hand. I use psychic chirurgery to remove the negative level I gained and dispell the polymorph effect. Note that since the Aleax was a copy of me (save the type was changed) I retain the benefits of all my templates insofar as the extraordinary traits granted by them are concerned. 4. Limited Magic & Planar Traits: I command the deity I created to transform his godly realm into a plane of refuge for me. Since he is a greater deity he can alter just about any trait on the plane including the astral connections to that plane. I command him to limit all magic on that plane except divination magic. That is magic of no school can operate there, save divination. By a quirk of the psionic transparancy rules (and discipline descriptions) this does not limit psychoportation (which has no school equivalent). Incidentally, Time Regression is a psychoportive effect. This is different than rendering the plane a dead magic zone, it simply means spells, spell-like abilities, and anything via psionic-magic clarity of any school will not function. This does not preclude supernatural abilities, unless those supernatural abilities are of the aforementioned schools. I make my residence on this plane as these changes take effect. After I take residence there, I command the ice-assassin deity to seal off all astral connections to the plane. Note that this renders all teleportation effects impossible. It is now impossible to leave or enter the plane. Even via the Observatorium. Careful reading of the observatorium (Manual of the Planes pg 157) will reveal that the observatorium allows one to view the plane despite its safe-guards, but it no where says that it allows travel to guarded planes. Gathering Information: While the Terminator may be sipping tea and playing golf on his plane along with his ice-assassin friend for company, he still needs to keep abreast of the world at large. He does this by employing a vast array of divination spells each day. Name a divination or clairsentience power and this guy busts 'em off every day. He always asks if the status of the multi-verse has been kept in balance. He is most concerned of a disruption in divine politics. The result: I cannot be harmed by Pun-Pun. He can only dance around me trying to disrupt my ability to cast regression. He cannot remove my psi-crown nor can he dispell it (as dispelling, and other such effects are limited on the plane in which I reside). He cannot conjure environmental hazards around me with any magical effect. The plane will not be divinely morphic, so I doubt he could conjure environments by virtue of his divinity. The plane cannot be accessed by any means that use astral connections. Once one is in the plane, there is no getting out or getting in. The Story: Our epic friend, the Terminator is a pawn of Ao. Ao desired a plan B should all other plans fail. Thus he encouraged the Terminator in his strange ways to employ the plan that he has enacted. Pushing him into a self-righteous life of solitude vigilant against great preturbations in the multiverse. The Terminator is extremely old, and was one of the first projects that Ao embarked upon. So for ages the Terminator waits, until he hears of some great disturbance of the divine politics. Should he decide to act, he begins to time regress to a point where he is sure that things are safe and then emerges from his hiding place (asking the ice-assassin to open the astral gates) and attempts to fix the problem he has found.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-03-06, 08:28 PM	This post will serve as a list of the new terminator immunities and where they are derived from: *Singular Enemy: (paraphrased) "Although visible to all, only its intended victim (the terminator) can harm it. Attacks made by other creatures are rebuffed, dealing no damage and hindering the terminator in no way." This is gotten by mind-switching with an ice-assassin of an aleax of myself. (the trick to do this will be explained later. Basically, I'll just use methods from my mind-switch thread.) *Limited Magic: The plane on which the terminator resides has limited magic. The only school of magic that can function on this plane is psychoportation, which has no equivalent school via the magic-psionic clarity, all other schools are limited. Thus it is only possible to travel to this plane via a psionic planeshift, but that doesn't matter. What does matter is the fact that spells and effects like antimagic field and mord's disjunction do not function on this plane. *Elemental Immunities: Various spells can grant one subtypes. Mind-switch does not grant me the cold-subtype of the ice assassin, but there exist two spells (names unknown to me as of yet) that grant the fire and cold subtypes as an instantaneous duration effect. Other extraordinary immunities will come from templates. I switch with a perfect construct replica of myself, as you recall, so this is entirely possible. So long as the immunities do not stem from the fact that I would need a subtype (mind-switch cannot grant subtypes). Currently, I would need something like: half-black dragon, half-blue and half battle dragon to cover the five elements (fire, cold, acid, electricity, and sonic). If lower LA templates can be found which grant these immunities, I will substitute those in instead. Immersion/crushing/burying/suffocation: The terminator will gain the extraordinary ability to earth-glide via illithid savant or a burrow speed somehow. The terminator then buries himself deep within the plane. The ground around him cannot be transmuted (as transmutation magic is limited) and this renders the Terminator very difficult to immerse. Burying the terminator is just redundant. Suffocation is not a problem as the Terminator has the construct type and therefore does not need to eat, sleep, or breath. The dead magic question: A god's godly realm traits may be changed as he sees fit to but the most drastic changes require a long time to accomplish regardless of divine rank. There is no mention in the SRD that a god may change another god's realm, and I see no reason why they could. Dead magic is not a trait that a deity may apply to his godly realm. Also, in the Faerun Campaign setting book the way to manufacture dead magic zones is unclear, and is often a freak occurrance. I do not claim to be an expert on the destruction of the weave.
FromTheShadows 02-03-06, 11:40 PM	So far, my best immunity build contains the following ingrediants: 1. Mind-switching with the ice-assassin of an Aleax bent on killing me. This gives me immunity to all attacks targeted at me from any creature except for myself. Just make sure to have mind-effecting immunity (which I'm pretty sure you already do) or else you can still be damaged by a manifesting of Death Urge. If armed, the subject attacks itself as a full-round action. The attack automatically succeeds and deals damage as a critical hit. If unarmed, the subject moves adjacent to the nearest enemy and provokes an attack of opportunity, offering its opponent an opening, which the opponent may or may not choose to take advantage of. Then again, you likely are immune to it already, so that doesn't matter. Not to mention that, in the body of the Aleax, you might be able to consider the effects of the ability to be "you attack the Aleax of yourself" then, and therefore not be harmed. Anyways, just a little thing I noticed. Carry on; Pun-Pun has to be beaten sometime.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-04-06, 12:38 AM	Just make sure to have mind-effecting immunity (which I'm pretty sure you already do) or else you can still be damaged by a manifesting of Death Urge. Then again, you likely are immune to it already, so that doesn't matter. Not to mention that, in the body of the Aleax, you might be able to consider the effects of the ability to be "you attack the Aleax of yourself" then, and therefore not be harmed. Anyways, just a little thing I noticed. Carry on; Pun-Pun has to be beaten sometime. No problem. I have the mind-affecting immunity covered. Not that anyone could affect my mind besides myself... I'm having a hard time now figuring out how pun-pun could even access my plane to prevent my time-regressions. Furthermore, the rules on planar traits and the clairity rule are perfect for this new build. Pun-pun cannot render himself immune psychoportive effects in the manner that I render myself immune to all other schools except divination. The only fear I have is dead magic. I'm not sure how pun-pun could transform my plane into one with the dead magic trait... but I'll leave that to the pun-pun defenders or people who understand the "weave" better than I.
Lokiyn 02-04-06, 12:48 AM	Of course that assuming you can aquire the ability without manipulate form. Which of course it appears Singular enemy blocks you from doing so.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-04-06, 12:59 AM	Of course that assuming you can aquire the ability without manipulate form. Which of course it appears Singular enemy blocks you from doing so. Err... what? Are you saying that gaining singular enemy by my method is illegal? I think it's fairly obvious: I am the victim of the Aleax, therefore I can affect it. I switch with it gaining its extraordinary qualities. I fail to see how the Aleax's singular enemy trait would prevent its victim from switching with it.
Lokiyn 02-04-06, 01:02 AM	Dm fiat You can't mechanically trigger an aleax event. My biggest point of contention is that there is no mechanical way to create an aleax Only flavor text that never specifies what diety or any thing else about the aleaxes origins
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-04-06, 01:09 AM	Yes I can, when I make a god that can obey my every whim. I believe you call Ice-Assassin your signature spell. Surely you know its capabilities. I command the god to create an aleax of me. All I need to do is have the deity punish me for "straying from the dictates of their alignment, fail to make the proper sacrifices, or who otherwise enrage the deity." I have complete controll over the ice-assassin. Quote: "The ice assassin is under your absolute command." I believe that absolute command confers the ability to "otherwise enrage" my ice-assassin into doing whatever I please.
Lokiyn 02-04-06, 01:20 AM	Yes but which diety has the ability to create an aleax? A diety is a far cry from all dieties. My point is that i dislike using flavor text to eliminate a mechanical monstrosity. Otherwise i would claim victory with the crystal cask of the great unknown Pl.H.B. pg 44
Tempest Stormwind 02-04-06, 01:21 AM	Wait a sec. Ice Assassin of Aleax.... type Construct? How exactly are you MIND switching with it? Is there something I'm missing?
Lokiyn 02-04-06, 01:23 AM	Both of us make use of mindswitch so we have ways to bypass that. Currently PaO is the most common way to bypass it. Currently i trying to expand the trick by by passing ooze's immunities to mind affecting and polymorph But in this instant he is supposedly making an ice assassin of a diety that has the ability to make an aleax. (i've yet to find one, but in theory one exists) that makes and aleax of him. which he PoA's into something that he can swap with. *Edit* although whats stopping an aleax who was sent by a god aware of the mental tom foolery from shapechanging back into a construct has yet to be adressed.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-04-06, 01:28 AM	The a specific deity is listed in the flavor text: Bahmut. Or however you spell that name. The god of good dragons, the platinum dragon. His Aleax has the favored form of a gold dragon it says. So at the very least I could create an ice-assassin of Bahmut. Then create another ice assassin of pelor (a greater deity) to make my plane. Call it justification by flavor text if you like, but whose to separate the flavor from the RAW? I certainly cannot make that distinction without stepping on some toes elsewhere. Like it or not, the text allows it. To Tempest Stormwind: Did you read the description of the build? Therein it clearly lays out a method for mind-switching with a construct. Note that this particular construct is not mind-less as most constructs are. So revoking his immunity that comes from his type via polymorph is not overly cheesey.
Tempest Stormwind 02-04-06, 01:39 AM	To Tempest Stormwind: Did you read the description of the build? Therein it clearly lays out a method for mind-switching with a construct. Note that this particular construct is not mind-less as most constructs are. So revoking his immunity that comes from his type via polymorph is not overly cheesey. Right, I did, but I guess it slipped my mind. I'm not entirely comfortable explaining the reason why it slipped, but note that the slip is to be expected in my current state of mind, and that it should pass in a while. Until it does, I'll leave the forums alone.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-04-06, 01:50 AM	How is this: There is a simple way to address the issue of control, and I think that will employ it. 1. I order my ice-assassin deity to render a timeless body effect on me permanent ala alter reality. 2. Then I order him to create an aleax of me. The Aleax cannot affect me now. I do not think the aleax will have the timeless body effect on him, as that is basically a spell effect with a long duration (permanent). The aleax will have all my equipment and such, but it never makes a mention of the fact that it is an identical state as I am. 3. Anyways, we do battle and I win, but do not kill him. Instead I restrain him via an imprisonment effect. In the melee that ensued prior to the Aleax's inprisonment I collected a sample of his hair. And then proceed to make an ice-assassin of the Aleax that attacked me, using components this time to ensure that the precise effect is created. 4. I then have the ice-assassin deity remove my timeless body effect. 5. Now I have full control over the ice-assassin Aleax and I can command it to sit put whilst I mind-switch with it. I also forbid the ice-assassin from attacking the real Aleax or freeing him from imprisonment. 6. I then slay the ice-assassin Aleax. 7. I free the real Aleax and engage in uprotected ... battle with it. Does that clear up semantic and legal issues for you?
Lokiyn 02-04-06, 02:02 AM	Huh this is interesting Magic items aren’t affected by this spell. A construct is an animated object or artificially constructed creature. Because its body is a mass of unliving matter, a construct is hard to destroy. It gains bonus hit points based on size, as shown on the table now the signature constucts, golems Creating a golem is essentially similar to creating any sort of magic item. and The characteristics of a golem that come from its nature as a magic item and from constructs A construct is an animated object or artificially constructed creature. Not that it really means anything. But it looks like that constructs are either A.) Animated objects, PaO works b.) Artificially Constructed creatures, Which by virture of being magic items means that PaO Which of course i can only definitivly apply to golems. ::shrugs:: *edit* An aleax has all the statistics, abilities, qualities, racial traits, and possesions of its intended victim. A permenant magical effect would definitly fall under one of those.
HotSake 02-04-06, 02:20 AM	An aleax has all the statistics, abilities, qualities, racial traits, and possesions of its intended victim. A permenant magical effect would definitly fall under one of those. O RLY? Which one, may I ask?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-04-06, 02:28 AM	Hmmm... the application of timeless body was just to ensure that I would not die when pitted against myself. There are other ways I suppose. HotSake brings up a good point though. In the case of timeless body, this is not an alteration of ability, racial traits, or possessions. It may be construed to be an alteration of "statistics" or "qualities." I would tend to think that statistics is redundant with qualities as all the creature's qualities are given in its "statistic block." Furthermore, I think it is a huge mistake to confuse magic items with constructs. Constructs are creatures, not items. Items can be magical or mundane, but are never creatures. PaO will work on a creature of the construct type, even golems, due to the fact that it is indeed a creature.
Lokiyn 02-04-06, 02:45 AM	Ah but i'm not confusing constructs for magical items. Golems are clearly both magical items and creatures. I specifically mentioned that i could not apply this Definitively to all constructs. However all constructs are 1.) animated objects or 2.) artificially constructed creatures If 2. These artificial creatures have the qualities of creatures and magical items. However i can only make that claim for sure in the case of golems. Golems at least are immune to PaO The characteristics of a golem that come from its nature as a magic item (caster level, prerequisite feats and spells, market price, cost to create) are given in summary form at the end of each golem’s description. I do not make that claim for all other constructs, except for the assertion that all other constructs are a.) Made of unliving matter b.) artificially constructed or animated objects. and the musing that [/musing] if a construct is artificialy constructed then there is a good chance that they like golems share a dual nature.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-04-06, 02:57 AM	Gah... well, if it doesn't affect this build then I guess I don't need to worry. You might bring that up on the mind-switch thread. But I still don't think that a dual nature precludes the use PaO. As creatures they are not subject to dispel as it would affect a magical item. In all interactions that I can dream of they are treated as creatures. Of course I can't recall any specifics... perhaps this is just some sort of subconscious prejudice.
Lokiyn 02-04-06, 03:08 AM	True however its particularly telling that they point out the aspect that invalidates the use of a spell that specifically affects items Disjunction doesnt affect creatures, a golem is a creature and a magical object, thus Dusjunction fails because Disjunction does not affect creatures. Thus PaO doesnt affect Magic items, a golem is a creature and a magical object, thus PaO fails because PaO does not affect Magic Items
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-04-06, 03:33 AM	Ok, I may be willing to concede that. But only for golems. Anyways, so what about the other tricks of this build? Are there any more problems with the Aleax trick? Does the plane trick work? Can pun-pun manipulate the plane? What environemental hazards am I still subject to? Personally, I don't know how pun-pun could even get to the plane. And no, the observatorium does not grant access to it. Whomever thought that the observatorium granted access to all planes was wrong. It grants the ability to observe all planes (as its name implies) but that does not confer access. Unless of course I am blind and missed that sentence after reading it 3 times... or perhaps it was updated elsewhere.
Lokiyn 02-04-06, 03:59 AM	yep you did. Its on the previous page the plane generates a one way gate effect (but not the spell so you can't block it) to any location its viewing. And pg 158 tells you what you can view, anything. Pun pun can manipulate any divine realm or plane by virtue of his greater divine ranks. in addition he can simply declare the plane he is on as his divine realm and manipulate its traits. As for enviromental hazards? A.) Quintessence b.) Pun Pun astral seed in quintessence. use the no-ship (i believe it was called) c.) pun pun in the far realms, pun pun can establish his divine realm in the far realms. In addition to being a trippy place to live the far realms have the advantage of being officially one of the few places outside time. Rendering him immune to the effects of the terminator by virtue of location Oh good lord. If i take the Accelerated assasin, establish its birth in the far realm or in the demiplane with the same time trait. i can mechanically obliterate pun pun using the annulus :eek: Reason being Immediate actions and free actions take an infintessimal amount of time. The Accelerated Assassin under the effects of planar bubble takes no time. Mechanically i would be infinately faster than pun pun, since there is no printed ability currently that could change pun-puns birth/(native planar enviroment{that i can find atm})
Khan the Destroyer 02-04-06, 04:38 AM	Let me first say that you guys are awesome and I admire your C.O.-fu. This post will serve as a list of the new terminator immunities and where they are derived from: *Singular Enemy: (paraphrased) "Although visible to all, only its intended victim (the terminator) can harm it. Attacks made by other creatures are rebuffed, dealing no damage and hindering the terminator in no way." This is gotten by mind-switching with an ice-assassin of an aleax of myself. (the trick to do this will be explained later. Basically, I'll just use methods from my mind-switch thread.) *Limited Magic: The plane on which the terminator resides has limited magic. The only school of magic that can function on this plane is psychoportation, which has no equivalent school via the magic-psionic clarity, all other schools are limited. Thus it is only possible to travel to this plane via a psionic planeshift, but that doesn't matter. What does matter is the fact that spells and effects like antimagic field and mord's disjunction do not function on this plane. *Elemental Immunities: Various spells can grant one subtypes. Mind-switch does not grant me the cold-subtype of the ice assassin, but there exist two spells (names unknown to me as of yet) that grant the fire and cold subtypes as an instantaneous duration effect. Other extraordinary immunities will come from templates. I switch with a perfect construct replica of myself, as you recall, so this is entirely possible. So long as the immunities do not stem from the fact that I would need a subtype (mind-switch cannot grant subtypes). Currently, I would need something like: half-black dragon, half-blue and half battle dragon to cover the five elements (fire, cold, acid, electricity, and sonic). If lower LA templates can be found which grant these immunities, I will substitute those in instead. Immersion/crushing/burying/suffocation: The terminator will gain the extraordinary ability to earth-glide via illithid savant or a burrow speed somehow. The terminator then buries himself deep within the plane. The ground around him cannot be transmuted (as transmutation magic is limited) and this renders the Terminator very difficult to immerse. Burying the terminator is just redundant. Suffocation is not a problem as the Terminator has the construct type and therefore does not need to eat, sleep, or breath. It's late and I am tired. So I may be missing something. But... what is stopping Pun-Pun from sensing this occurence a NI weeks before it happens and stopping it from happening? I don't see anything here protecting against his Portfolio Senses. The dead magic question: A god's godly realm traits may be changed as he sees fit to but the most drastic changes require a long time to accomplish regardless of divine rank. There is no mention in the SRD that a god may change another god's realm, and I see no reason why they could. Dead magic is not a trait that a deity may apply to his godly realm. Also, in the Faerun Campaign setting book the way to manufacture dead magic zones is unclear, and is often a freak occurrance. I do not claim to be an expert on the destruction of the weave. From what I understand, after cramming a bunch of FR History in one sitting, Dead Magic Zones were created after Mystra or some previous incarnation exploded, or was killed, or did something else dramatic. This event caused the weave to fail, or did something equally catastrophic and the result was dead magic zones in random locations. So, from that, I gather that dead magic zones aren't really created by someone intentionally through their own power. Though deities can create planes that magic does not function on. pun pun in the far realms, pun pun can establish his divine realm in the far realms. In addition to being a trippy place to live the far realms have the advantage of being officially one of the few places outside time. Rendering him immune to the effects of the terminator by virtue of location So basically, as soon as Pun-Pun ascends, he uses his Control Creature salient divine ability to control a creature native to the far realms. He does this by either going there himself or (more likely) using the Precipitate Planar Breach spells and just looking through. The creature is forever more bound to Pun-Pun, since he will never be released from control. Pun-Pun casts Planar Bubble on the creature, renders the affect permanent with Alter Reality, and the creature never leaves Pun-Pun's shoulder. Pun-Pun would then be immune to the passage of time and any affect manipulating time since he now exists outside of it. This would include the Terminator regressing time. In this way, he can not negate Pun-Pun's actions because Pun-Pun doesn't exist in the time stream.
Lokiyn 02-04-06, 05:03 AM	So basically, as soon as Pun-Pun ascends, he uses his Control Creature salient divine ability to control a creature native to the far realms. He does this by either going there himself or (more likely) using the Precipitate Planar Breach spells and just looking through. The creature is forever more bound to Pun-Pun, since he will never be released from control. Pun-Pun casts Planar Bubble on the creature, renders the affect permanent with Alter Reality, and the creature never leaves Pun-Pun's shoulder. Pun-Pun would then be immune to the passage of time and any affect manipulating time since he now exists outside of it. This would include the Terminator regressing time. In this way, he can not negate Pun-Pun's actions because Pun-Pun doesn't exist in the time stream. Excellent. Two things. 1 The far realms cannot be accessed through teleportation, gateing, or breaching. Reasons: The far realms are quirky, To be more specific the far realm is outside, The realms are the existance beyond the planes. There are however three ways to reach it. 1.) Ancient portal that may or may not exist, last time it was used it drove an entire civilization mad. 2.) Travel to the beginning or end of time and take one more step. 3.) Pierce the true heart of Dreams. 2 you cant control planar breaches destinations, in addition planar breaches connect two plane, the far realm is described as outside/beyond the planes. Excellent i love your anti Assassin technique. Why? because it removes pun pun from existance. Pun pun now exists in a monetary frozen fragment of time. Any given amount of time in the bubble results in no time passing in the real world. So pun pun is safely locked away. In the even that pun pun leaves the bubble to act the creature remains in no time and pun puns shoulder buddy is lost forever. Although i must say, pun pun really should establish his divine realm in the Far realms, even though its a bit of a commute it firmly establishes his immunity from time with an astral seed/clone/whatever. However it does appear that manipulating the time flow is no longer enough to beat pun pun, of course we still don't have a way to take out pun pun posts power up, if the Assassin can catch pun pun while he is in time he can do it, but thats getting to be problematic.
Khan the Destroyer 02-04-06, 12:22 PM	1 The far realms cannot be accessed through teleportation, gateing, or breaching. Reasons: The far realms are quirky, To be more specific the far realm is outside, The realms are the existance beyond the planes. Is there a reference in the books for this? I can't seem to find anywhere where it says you cannot travel there through magic. Just that blurb about links in the Manual of the Planes. 2 you cant control planar breaches destinations, in addition planar breaches connect two plane, the far realm is described as outside/beyond the planes. I thought you couldn't control the size of the breach. I will have to check again. In any case, I can use the Call Creature salient divine ability. This would allow me to call some pseudonatural native of the Far Realms, and he is brought to me on the Material Plane by an effect similar to Gate. Any given amount of time in the bubble results in no time passing in the real world. So pun pun is safely locked away. In the even that pun pun leaves the bubble to act the creature remains in no time and pun puns shoulder buddy is lost forever. I figure he can polymorph the creature into a humanoid and fuse with it as the power. And instead of rendering the Planar Bubble effect permanent with Alter Reality, he can do it with the Permanent Emanation epic feat. That way he can turn it on and off at-will.
LordofProcrastination 02-04-06, 01:16 PM	Just a reminder that, thanks to my epic-spell-trick, all of Pun-Pun's abilties can function as extraordinary (that is non-magical) effects. This pretty much solves the difficulties with limited-magic planes and so forth. A well-placed extraordinary Mordenkainen's Disjunction or Null Psionics Field could toss a wrench in the Terminator's routine.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-04-06, 03:24 PM	Just a reminder that, thanks to my epic-spell-trick, all of Pun-Pun's abilties can function as extraordinary (that is non-magical) effects. This pretty much solves the difficulties with limited-magic planes and so forth. A well-placed extraordinary Mordenkainen's Disjunction or Null Psionics Field could toss a wrench in the Terminator's routine. To Lokiyn and Khan: After reading the control creature's ability I see now that I really do need to keep a divine shield up, in fact I'll probably need to be born in one. However, I don't think the use of the Far Realms is legal in the case of Pun-Pun, unless he travels to a different multi-verse (other than Faerun). The Far Realms are not listed in the Faerun Cosmology and I could only find them in the "varient" cosmology sections of the Manual of the Planes. If we want to start using varient rules then I may as well bust out the "psionics is different" varient. Planar bubble trick: it won't work unless you start using the Far Realms varient. [Edit: I just saw the fusion trick... that would work; if the Far Realms did indeed exist in Faerun] *Side-Note: I now want to play a githzerai gish and bust out this spell: All my spells would be quickened. This new argument is sparking some pretty nifty tricks. [EDIT] This may be strange. Pun-Pun leaves the time-stream. But his past-self does not, only his current and future selves are subject to the removal. Now, the Terminator begins regressing. The action where Pun-Pun left the time stream is undone, as that action was preformed on this time-stream. I continue to regress as normal.
Lokiyn 02-04-06, 04:02 PM	As long as pseudonatural creatures exist in faerun then the far realms exists, as the far realms is the origin location of the far realms. The Epic creature tick is fairly simple. Basically you create a creature using an epic spell, you can grant that creature abilities that are duplicateds of other abilities, except that they are extraordinary. Then steal. As for the far realms, here is my reasoning. Various teleportation spells connect one plane to another moving through the astral which is the area between the planes. The far realms are discribe as the Outside, it is describe as beyond the planes. Draw a circle. Teleportaton effects can get you anywhere within these boundries as plane to plane transportshttp://www.gameforums.ru/uploads/720259-Planes.jpg The far realms is outside that circle. ( i couldn't find an image of the great tree cosmology but the principle remains the same) *edit whoops you found the epic stuff* And yes i was banned from ever using planar bubble ever again. Why Neriph with a ring of limbo control and planar bubble for evil evil battlefield control
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-04-06, 04:10 PM	Well, if the far realms are brought into this, there really is no point in continuing this debate. Once the core mechanic of this build is made irrelevant (time regression) there is no hope. Though I would like to point out that if pun-pun escapes the time stream, then the he is may be committing suicide with respect to everyone else. He'll eliminate himself from the timestream faster and more easily than I ever could. Furthermore, I now have no hope for the destruction of pun-pun on any front, as the Aleax ability makes him completely invulnerable to any direct assault. *sigh*
Lokiyn 02-04-06, 04:19 PM	Well thats up to khan, my CO function is to find these quirky little obscure bits of information and drag them kicking and screaming into the light. The Faerun material doens't make an clear rulings on if the fear realm exists or not. ::shrugs:: Well there is always the Cask of the Great unknown
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-04-06, 04:38 PM	*eye-brow raised* What is this Cask you speak of? Anyways, a last ditch effort on my part: 1. Is the far realm considered a plane if it is not on the great wheel? 2. If pun-pun is suddenly projected outside the timestream, what effects does that have? Would this mean that he would cease to exist with respect to the multiverse? 3. The Shadow plane connects all campaign settings correct? I don't recall where I heard this... but lets just assume it is correct for a second. This means that time on all campaign settings is interlaced. Could the Terminator escape to another campaign setting bust off regressions until the pun-pun in his campaign setting is gone and then return? Would this be an effective way to "hide" from pun-pun. 4. If pun-pun is in all campaign settings by the assumption in number 3, and he is so paranoid of a Terminator that he continually exists outside of time, does he exist at all? (with respect to the multiverse that is).
Lokiyn 02-04-06, 04:51 PM	The athar have a legend of an artifact called the crystal cask of the great unknown. Its in the planr handbook. Supposedly if you collect all the pieces and rebuild it everything with a spark of divinity is extinguished as the cask recovers all the lost divinity. Basically the Far realms have this Flowing time: One minute in the far realms equals no time on the material Its not 100:1 time flow it's Infinity:0 So basically any time pun pun is outside the time stream no time passes.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-04-06, 05:05 PM	Right you are about the time on the far realm. To the casual observer in the multiverse pun-pun never enters the Far Realm because he spends no time there. It's as if he never left. Thus if he moved away from the multiverse in reaction to a Terminator he could never return to normal time as it would be as though he never left if return he did. An interesting connundrum no? In short, pun-pun evades nothing in the Multiverse by going to the far-realm. He does, however, gain more time to do whatever he likes. Not that it matters much to me how infinite he is. This would be a good way to quell "pun-pun isn't infinite he's merely arbitrary" arguments.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-04-06, 06:02 PM	Right, so I believe that the Terminator is still viable now, and all is not lost. Creating a planar bubble is just like wrapping the plane around yourself, making it as though you were there. That is if I understand it correctly. Essentially, using the Far Realm in a planar bubble or simply living in the Far Realm would replicate a time-stop effect. So if pun-pun wants to stay in a time-stop indefinately that's up to him. It would be a sort of stalemate in the war between the Terminator and Pun-Pun. So now, unless I'm mistaken, we're back to immunity tricks. I needn't worry about any SDA affecting my Terminator due to the Aleax ability (I was worried for a second there). BTW, all of his abilities, like the previous terminator, are assumed to have been in motion before Pun-Pun existed. Thus, once pun-pun achieves power he may know all he likes about the Terminator and his story, but if the immunity tricks work there's not a whole lot he can do about it.
Lokiyn 02-04-06, 06:08 PM	True but once pun pun steps sideways through time he has an infinite amount of time to deal with the terminator, in this case he probably could simply manually hunt the terminator down and quintessence him. Flowing time doen't suffer from time stops limitations.
Milo HoBo 02-04-06, 06:09 PM	I don't know if this helps any, but being at the base of the spire in the outlands suppresses all divine rank. Using your plane wrapping thing (planar bubble?) around Pun-Pun could help in his dimise, right?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-04-06, 06:12 PM	How can he deal with the terminator if he does not exist on the same timeline? He essentially has all the time in the world to do whatever he wants, but he cannot affect the other timeline without entering it. If he were to reach outside his bubble his arm would enter the regressing time field. Burying the terminator in quintessence is a tad difficult as the Terminator is burrowed into a plane. You would need to blanket the entire plane (top, bottom, and side) to accomplish your goal. If I can find a way, I'll bury the Terminator in an infinite plane. Then it becomes a battle of infinities. Another stalemate, since we don't know which one diverges to infinity faster. To Milo Hobo: It might help for a direct assault build. However, I'm fairly certain any such build would fail as Pun-Pun (and the Terminator) both have extraordinary immunity to everything... well almost everything.
Lokiyn 02-04-06, 06:30 PM	he can still affect the terminator. Pun-Pun has a litterally infinite time to find the terminator manuelly. He also has a sack full of quintessence. Pun pun can engage the terminator in direct combat and pop the sack over him. or empty the sack out over the terminator. Or simply force the planes to under go gravitational collapse through the use of the nova tactic. The biggest thing is that punpun has infinite time. Even if you are in an infinite plane expanding infinitely fast it becomes finite to the no time effect of pun-pun
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-04-06, 06:49 PM	The plane needn't be expanding, it need only be infinite to begin with as per the "infinite size trait." Pun-Pun may have all the time he wants, but that doesn't necessarily mean he will approach the infinite size of the infinite plane. Without a function to describe how quickly a plane diverges to infinity, all such arguments are merely speculative. This is what I meant when I said that such a tactic results in another stalemate. The nova tactic is an interesting one. However, an infinite plane has infinite mass and will not move in response to a Nova, much less collapse. Perhaps a localized gravitational phenomenon could occur, but the rules for this are also undefined. As much as pun-pun bends the box, he cannot break it. Furthermore the gravitational effects of one plane do not affect another. So if he were to Nova on the Terminator he would need to do it in the normal time-frame, thus opening up himself to regression.
Khan the Destroyer 02-04-06, 07:45 PM	TG, would you mind posting a compilation of the tactics being used, or point me to it if its already been done please? I'm confused about the Far Realm planar bubble. Wouldn't everything still be going on outside of Pun-Pun's planar bubble? Wouldn't he still be aware of everything and be able to interact with it? If not, what would happen with an Astral Plane planar bubble? Or a temporal energy plane planar bubble? I ask so that I can have a point of reference. What if Pun-Pun cast Astral Projection on himself and ordered a clone to take his suspended body to the Far Realm? Would he be protected from temporal shifts? If we were to use Lokiyn's suggestion, and make Pun-Pun's realm somewhere on the Far Realm, what would Astral Seed/Clone do? As expected, I'm struggling to grasp the relationship between regular time, no time, time regression, and future-spanning portfolio sense. The plane needn't be expanding, it need only be infinite to begin with as per the "infinite size trait." Pun-Pun may have all the time he wants, but that doesn't necessarily mean he will approach the infinite size of the infinite plane. From my understanding, Pun-Pun wouldn't need to cover an infinite amount of space, just enough to find the Termintor. Since no time is passing, he would find him eventually. Alright, so where we stand is the Terminator, which has the Singular Enemy ability of an Aleax with effectively no enemy. He is in a plane that allows only Psychoportation powers to occur, and all links to the Astral cut off. In this plane, he is buried somewhere deep underground. It is here where he will begin regressing time to attempt assassinating Pun-Pun's innocent, helpless, cute, lawful good ancestors. So, Pun-Pun can use Psionic Plane Shift to get there, unless I am missing something. Once on the plane, he can seek out the Terminator. Once he finds the Terminator (assuming time is frozen outside which is what I think you guys are suggesting), he just has to fill up the cavern or hole with Quintessence. Is that about right? Also, for the record, anyone can change what plane they are native to with the Cosmic Connection ability of the Cosmic Descryer (Epic Level Handbook). Whatever plane you are on when you use it, you are treated as a native to that plane.
Lokiyn 02-04-06, 08:20 PM	I'm confused about the Far Realm planar bubble. Wouldn't everything still be going on outside of Pun-Pun's planar bubble? Wouldn't he still be aware of everything and be able to interact with it? Yes he can, Treat it like the ultimate time stop without any of time stops limitations, Think "The Flash" What if Pun-Pun cast Astral Projection on himself and ordered a clone to take his suspended body to the Far Realm? Would he be protected from temporal shifts? Theoretically, yes While pun pun's body (and thus the nexus of the spell is safe) The astral projection could be rewound until it winked out and a temporal duplicate pun pun would emerge and be erased as there was a pun pun in the timeline as it exited, however the pun pun in the far realms would be uneffected and be able to return. If we were to use Lokiyn's suggestion, and make Pun-Pun's realm somewhere on the Far Realm, what would Astral Seed/Clone do? as far as i can guess, Grow into a new pun pun if pun pun dies through the actions of the terminator. Or in the case of the Clone leave an empty body with all the might and power of pun pun waiting to be filled. Also, for the record, anyone can change what plane they are native to with the Cosmic Connection ability of the Cosmic Descryer (Epic Level Handbook). Whatever plane you are on when you use it, you are treated as a native to that plane. Oh the things you can abuse with the ability to carry around pockets of planar traits with you. Planar bubble the spell creates a 10ft radius emination from the person its cast on. So whenever pun pun passes within 10 feet of something it enters into his time frame. Theoretically pun pun could throw rocks as hard as he could and as soon as they left that boundry to him they would stop. TO the rest of the world a spherical wave of small pebbles moving at fantistic speeds appeared (and to us in the normal time line) exploded in a wave of dolomitic death. And what i was mentioning about the nova tactic was that once pun pun triggers the initial gravitational wave from the nova the resulting black hole will swiftly spread at the speed of light as the gravitational pull draws the entire infinite plane upon itself. (since of course an infinite plane of rock has infinite mass meaning that the black hole started by pun pun grows ever larger)
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-04-06, 08:48 PM	Alright, you've got it mostly right Khan. I'll spell out the exact state of the Terminator as he stands currently. All of these qualities are assumed to have been in motion before pun-pun existed. 1. The Terminator is on a plane that has no Astral connections and allows only divination and psychoportation magics. The only access to this plane is via the observatorium. 2. The Terminator cannot be harmed by any attack from another creature except himself. He is vulnerable to strange environmental situations (such as being buried in quintessence). He cannot be hindered by any creature. 3. The Terminator has burrowed deep into the plane where he resides. Treat him as though he were a fossil buried beneath the earth. He is not in a cavern which may be filled, all the space is occupied by dirt or whatever the plane is made of. To answer your questions about the planar bubble... I will quote the spell description, as it is not as enabling as you might think. This spell creates an area around the target creature that emulates its native planar environment. Thus, a character hailing from the Material Plane would have normal gravity, temperature, magic and so on. This spell cast on a native of the Plane of Shadow would make the area around her have normal gravity, a mild neutral alignment, enhanced shadow spells, and impeded light spells. As you can see, the first example lists gravity, temperature, magic and "so on." However, the second example does not contain the "so on" bit and lists the benefits gained: gravity, alignment, magic. It may only be inferred that the traits gravity, temperature, alignment, and magic traits of the native plane are all emulated. However, the spell makes no indication that time traits or morphic traits are conferred. The only indication that this may be so is the two words "so on." It'd be a shaky argument to say that this "so on" implies time traits are also emulated when the second example clearly does not state this. For additional examples I will only use the Shadow plane as an example. For the astral plane you would gain: Subjective Directional Gravity, Mildly Neutral Aligned, Enhanced Magic (all spells quickened). Note if you did indeed emulate all of the traits of the plane, they would have included the fact that the plane of shadow is magically morphic or that the Material Plane is alterable morphic. Now, for the real Far Realm time trait: Lets say that Pun-Pun exists in the far lands and has planar breaches to all the planes in the Multiverse at hand. If you wish to move through these breaches you must use a complete breach. In this case the place where you stand would contain the traits of both planes. This negates the whole immunity to time as you are in an area that is both connected and not connected to the same time. It's difficult to say what exactly would happen at the juncture... in fact I believe there is a DM adjudication clause there. Regardless, lets say that pun-pun wants to reach out of the far-lands and affect the Terminator. He would then need to have his long arm in the normal time-stream. What's really bizarre is that Pun-Pun's arm would seem infinitely slow to him, as it enters a different time stream. If he does this while the multiverse is regressing then his actions preformed in the multi-verse are un-done if they did not interupt the Terminator in a single round. I'm pretty sure you're going to have to pick which stream you claim to be in... else it won't really make sense. Even if the Planar bubble trick were legal, he would still need to take actions on the material plane time-stream to affect it. I see no way around this. Then again, I'm not the most creative guy when it comes to these things.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-04-06, 09:02 PM	Lokiyn: Your mind is a twisted thing. I like the whole rock throwing trick, but I'm afraid even the laws of physics can describe such a phenomenon (and certainly no rules in D&D would describe such a thing). What we're running into here is a bunch of undefined propositions. If it cannot fit within the rules, then we cannot judge it from a RAW stand point. This where DM adjudication would come in, however we have agreed to keep DM Fiat at a minimum. I maintain that the Planar Bubble trick is illegal, as it stands (unless you want to emulate the wild magic trait of the far realm or its gravity trait). Finally, I'm afraid I'm going to have to delay my responses for a time. I've too much work piling up. I'll hopefully be able to respond by Monday.
Lokiyn 02-04-06, 09:10 PM	To answer your questions about the planar bubble... I will quote the spell description, as it is not as enabling as you might think. As you can see, the first example lists gravity, temperature, magic and "so on." However, the second example does not contain the "so on" bit and lists the benefits gained: gravity, alignment, magic. It may only be inferred that the traits gravity, temperature, alignment, and magic traits of the native plane are all emulated. However, the spell makes no indication that time traits or morphic traits are conferred. The only indication that this may be so is the two words "so on." It'd be a shaky argument to say that this "so on" implies time traits are also emulated when the second example clearly does not state this. For additional examples I will only use the Shadow plane as an example. For the astral plane you would gain: Subjective Directional Gravity, Mildly Neutral Aligned, Enhanced Magic (all spells quickened). Note if you did indeed emulate all of the traits of the plane, they would have included the fact that the plane of shadow is magically morphic or that the Material Plane is alterable morphic. On the other hand thats exactly the argument i've been making against arcane genesis. Except people say that time is part of the enviroment. According to the text it emulates his planar enviroment. time is part of the enviroment, the next set of text doesn't remove time from the things it emulates so.... Its this open ended nature of text that causes so many grey areas. Ah well In the other hand i contend that as an artificialy created construct the aleax is immune to polymorphing because it has a dual nature as described above, and that argument is about as valid as the anti bubble argument.
Zendu 02-04-06, 09:30 PM	This might have been brought up, but do you need to eat or sleep? even a 2 hour rest (ring of sust) nets a 4 hour loss in your time regression. Personally i see pun pun killing anyone above level 15.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-04-06, 09:57 PM	On the other hand thats exactly the argument i've been making against arcane genesis. Except people say that time is part of the enviroment. According to the text it emulates his planar enviroment. time is part of the enviroment, the next set of text doesn't remove time from the things it emulates so.... Its this open ended nature of text that causes so many grey areas. Ah well In the other hand i contend that as an artificialy created construct the aleax is immune to polymorphing because it has a dual nature as described above, and that argument is about as valid as the anti bubble argument. I couldn't resist replying... I couldn't agree more about arcane genesis, and I think that saying that arcane genesis allows time manipulation is at best shaky. This is why I use the rules for a godly realm instead of Arcane Genesis. Doh! Polymorph does not work on non-living creatures such as constructs. Well, for now I will just say that if the construct type were indeed immune to polymorphing effects in general it would be stated in the description of the type. Constructs may be artificially constructed, but so far as I know, not all can be constructed as Golems can. Therefore rulings that apply to golems do not necessarily apply to other constructs.
Khan the Destroyer 02-04-06, 10:05 PM	1. The Terminator is on a plane that has no Astral connections and allows only divination and psychoportation magics. The only access to this plane is via the observatorium. Psionic Plane Shift is a psychoportation power and doesn't require the Astral Plane to work. 2. The Terminator cannot be harmed by any attack from another creature except himself. He is vulnerable to strange environmental situations (such as being buried in quintessence). He cannot be hindered by any creature. Ok. But this doesn't stop Pun-Pun's portfolio senses from going off as soon as he becomes an overdeity. Pun-Pun seeing the event happen a NI weeks before it does is not an attack against the Terminator. 3. The Terminator has burrowed deep into the plane where he resides. Treat him as though he were a fossil buried beneath the earth. He is not in a cavern which may be filled, all the space is occupied by dirt or whatever the plane is made of. I see. I believe that creatures with burrow speeds can choose to leave no space behind or leave a tunnel of some sort. Moving at effectively infinite speed should allow Pun-Pun to instantaneously create a small pocket around the Terminator and unload quintessence into it. I can't find the bit about Burrow speed, but the Divine Earth Mastery SDA will do the trick just as well, and even allow Pun-Pun to instantly locate the Terminator once he touches the ground. As you can see, the first example lists gravity, temperature, magic and "so on." However, the second example does not contain the "so on" bit and lists the benefits gained: gravity, alignment, magic. Here is how I read the spell: This spell creates an area around the target creature that emulates its native planar environment. Since time traits are an aspect of a planar environment, this first sentence enables the spell to duplicate a plane's time traits. Thus a character hailing from the material plane would have normal gravity, magic, temperature, and so on. The words 'so on' indicate that the list isn't exhaustive, and that other traits will be duplicated as well. This sentence, coupled with the first one, still enable time traits to be duplicated. This spell cast on a native of the Plane of Shadow would make the area around her have normal gravity, a mild neutral alignment, enhanced shadow spells, and impeded light spells. If we were to interpret this sentence the way you suggest, then the spell could not duplicate temperatures from other planes, since it is not one of the traits listed in the last sentence. However, it is listed in the second sentence as a trait that would be duplicated by this spell. We must then assume that other traits are duplicated and that the Shadow Plane example is not exhaustive. To think it is is inconsistent with the first two sentences. Now, for the real Far Realm time trait: Lets say that Pun-Pun exists in the far lands and has planar breaches to all the planes in the Multiverse at hand. If you wish to move through these breaches you must use a complete breach. In this case the place where you stand would contain the traits of both planes. This negates the whole immunity to time as you are in an area that is both connected and not connected to the same time. It's difficult to say what exactly would happen at the juncture... in fact I believe there is a DM adjudication clause there. Regardless, lets say that pun-pun wants to reach out of the far-lands and affect the Terminator. He would then need to have his long arm in the normal time-stream. What's really bizarre is that Pun-Pun's arm would seem infinitely slow to him, as it enters a different time stream. If he does this while the multiverse is regressing then his actions preformed in the multi-verse are un-done if they did not interupt the Terminator in a single round. I'm pretty sure you're going to have to pick which stream you claim to be in... else it won't really make sense. Even if the Planar bubble trick were legal, he would still need to take actions on the material plane time-stream to affect it. I see no way around this. Then again, I'm not the most creative guy when it comes to these things. Pun-Pun doesn't need to go himself. He can send clones. And when his portfolio sense goes off, he can send clones before the Terminator does anything. (Actually, as it stands I don't see a way to evade the portfolio sense, so Pun-Pun wouldn't really need to go to the Far Realm, he can stop this years before it happens.) How are you reading the Aleax's Singular Enemy ability? It seems clear to me that the part about hindering the Aleax refers to any attacks made against it by a creature that isn't its intended victim. As opposed to 'The Aleax cannot be hindered in any way', which is not what the ability says. A couple of questions: 1. What would happen if Pun-Pun creates and Ice Assassin of the Terminator? Would it bypass the Terminator's Singular Enemy ability? 2. Would the Phane's (epic level handbook) Null Time Field have the same effect on Pun-Pun as the Far Realm planar trait? It says that the area is a static time field, which seems to me that it cannot flow forward or backward.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-04-06, 10:26 PM	Ah yes, I forgot about the psychoportive effects thing. Yeah, that would work. I guess I'm not sure what advantage there is to cutting off the astral connections now. I'm not so sure about moving at infinite speed and unloading a cargo of quintessence. I'll get to that later. This may require a bit more creativity on my part. Thanks for mentioning earth mastery. I think I can have my ice-assassin deity wrap me up in the whole plane (manipulating any amount of earth as he wishes) and then transform the giant glob of earth into metal. That would stop all burrowing tricks. If I could somehow make this an infinite sphere of metal, then I am set. As for pun-pun finding the Terminator as soon as he gets enough divine ranks to see the Terminator, I don't see the problem there. The new build technique is designed such that if pun-pun were to attack the Terminator nothing would avail Pun-Pun. So whether he attacks 100 years in advance or whether he attacks the second before the Terminator starts regressing is irrelevant. This is why I am focusing instead on issues of immunity. As for the Phane trick: Sure you can be placed into a null time field. This renders you comatose as the temporal stasis effect. I'm not sure you want to do that. Either way, the Terminator would undo the action that put you into the field, so it fails to fix anything either way. Your arguments on the planar bubble make some sense and I'll get to them later. I do not think that a definitive judgement call may be made here though.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-04-06, 10:47 PM	Holy bejesus. I just had an idea. What if I gained the incorporeal subtype via psion uncarnate? (or make my race be an unbodied from the XPH) Could I be affected by quintessence? You cannot wrap something around something that has no physical form. Incorporeal subtype also renders me immune to all forms of non-magical attacks, including environmental hazards. I am weightless, and therefore not affected by gravity (destroying the Nova tactic). Actually, I'm not so sure about that. I'm not sure, but can one conjure a wall of force in space? It's not a conjuration effect, so it's not limited by that rule. What about a force cage? Heck, how do incorporeal creatures who are not on the ethereal plane interact with force? Mwhahahaha. :evillaugh Ok... now, where's the catch? I know I missed something.
Khan the Destroyer 02-04-06, 11:29 PM	Thanks for mentioning earth mastery. I think I can have my ice-assassin deity wrap me up in the whole plane (manipulating any amount of earth as he wishes) and then transform the giant glob of earth into metal. That would stop all burrowing tricks. If I could somehow make this an infinite sphere of metal, then I am set. Well, Earth Mastery would still allow Pun-Pun to get to you. He can still locate you with the Tremorsense, and he has complete control over any earth, stone, or metal. As for pun-pun finding the Terminator as soon as he gets enough divine ranks to see the Terminator, I don't see the problem there. The new build technique is designed such that if pun-pun were to attack the Terminator nothing would avail Pun-Pun. So whether he attacks 100 years in advance or whether he attacks the second before the Terminator starts regressing is irrelevant. This is why I am focusing instead on issues of immunity. Understood. Though Pun-Pun can create an Ice Assassin of you, or an Aleax of you (in the same way you created one). As for the Phane trick: Sure you can be placed into a null time field. This renders you comatose as the temporal stasis effect. I'm not sure you want to do that. Either way, the Terminator would undo the action that put you into the field, so it fails to fix anything either way. Yes, you're right. Though Pun-Pun can use it without affecting himself. I'm not sure if merely walking towards the Terminator with it activated would constitute as an attack though. Your arguments on the planar bubble make some sense and I'll get to them later. I do not think that a definitive judgement call may be made here though. I do. The first sentence states what the spell does, which allows for Time traits to be duplicated. The last sentence does not hinder or enable anything more.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-04-06, 11:58 PM	I'm pretty happy with my newest idea: incorporeal subtype. I'll need to get it via psion uncarnate because class abilities transfer via mind-switch but subtypes do not. That said, we can eliminate the earth mastery/burying/immersion in mundane liquids/gravity arguments. The planar bubble thing is a bit annoying, but I think I am safe from it while on my plane, where abjurations of that nature do not function. Similarily, evocations such as wall of force and force cage would not function. And walls of anything else could never be conjured around me as I plan to sit on an arbitrary point in space. Quick question: what else besides quintessence do I need to worry about?
Lokiyn 02-05-06, 01:09 AM	Quick question: what else besides quintessence do I need to worry about? Impermenant boundry class portals. Faerunian portals have an option to be created with-in a mobile framework. Pun-pun can simply Pull a sigfried and pass a hoop over the terminator (considering he can make one of any size he wants.) Transmiting him to a dead magic plane. Which acording to the description of dead magic planes means that no magic other than the portal will function. Dead Magic These planes have no magic at all. A plane with the dead magic trait functions in all respects like an antimagic field spell. Divination spells cannot detect subjects within a dead magic plane, nor can a spellcaster use teleport or another spell to move in or out. The only exception to the “no magic” rule is permanent planar portals, which still function normally. Like not as, a very important difference. And even if you have a sack full of diamonds there isn't a 4th or below spell that can be used to break free. I love Gulags for magical creatures. nothing like a gatekeeper breaking in a hidden portal to find himself trapped with some depressed liches.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-05-06, 01:15 AM	Problem: Conjuration (Teleportation) and Astral Connections are severed on the plane I am on. If you could make a psionic portal that uses a psychoportive effect, then I may be vulnerable to that tactic. I am fully aware that dead magic is a HUGE problem for this guy. Which is why I it was one of the first things I inquired about. Where are the relevant rules regarding Faerunian portals?
Lokiyn 02-05-06, 02:14 AM	Ok this is driving me insane, but i cannot find this. I remember reading it but i cannot seem to find it.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-05-06, 02:21 AM	Is it worth looking up? I mean, don't all portals require the use of astral connections? Or fall under the conjuration (teleporation) school?
Lokiyn 02-05-06, 02:58 AM	Got it Create Moving Portal [Item Creation] You can create a portal that has a moving origin point. Prerequisite: Create Portal Benefit: By creating this type of portal, you affix a portal to the frame rather than to a fixed point in space. A moving portal requires that the origin be anchored to some material frame, such as an arch on a wagon or the limbs of a tree. Beings using the portal must be able to pass through the frame. For example, you could create a portal that exists inside a treant's branches, and the portal would move with the treant. You could not affix a portal to an ogre or gray ooze and have the portal follow the creature around. You cannot create portals that move on their own power or that move by magical means. All movement of the portal is directed by the frame to which the portal is affixed. It is not possible to move a portal's frame through itself. Adding this feature to your portal increases the base cost of the portal by +25%. Special: Portals created without the feat are fixed in space. And it matters because gates are Gate Conjuration (Creation or Calling) Level: Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9 Components: V, S, XP; see text Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Effect: See text Duration: Instantaneous or concentration (up to 1 round/level); see text Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No The reason this is important is that Any character of at least 17th level can build a portal if she knows the create portal feat and either the teleportation circle or gate spell. If the character uses gate to build the portal then the teleportation effect is made through a creation effect bypassing your sealed astral. Or if that leaves a bitter taste A planar ring gate with the second gate placed flush against the second one way portal to a dead magic plane. ..... If your wondering why i know so much about portals it was for a design for a steamship. Mobile portal A (one way) was attached to the front of the ship with the inanimate portal trait keyed to water and seawater. This was sent to a demiplane with an enormously high temperature (1500°F) Another mobile gate (Two way, inanimate {steam}) was linked to inside the ship/ This gate was 5ft in diameter and had a metal plate weighted down with man-made primative springs so that the steam must build up to a certain psi before its released into the ships engine. Eventually though the salt remains would build up so a third portal would have to be used and placed at the bottom of the plane. Tis last portal would need to be made of a non corrosive material. The last portal would be triggered manuelly when the 1st portal ceased to function. Because of the heat the impurities of the water left behind from the steam would melt allowing the third portal to spew pure liquid salt from the bowels of the demiplane. What can i say, the games never quite the same once i start plotting
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-05-06, 04:09 AM	Actually, reading the description of Portals in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting page 60 (portal operation) it says: "(The teleportation effect is similar to teleport without error cast by a 17th level caster, except that interplanar travel is possible.)" I know that is a 3.0 spell reference, but I believe it still stands (although it may now be called greater teleport). If this is the case, gate is not the base spell used and your argument is invalid.
Lokiyn 02-05-06, 04:21 AM	I know that is a 3.0 spell reference, but I believe it still stands (although it may now be called greater teleport). If this is the case, gate is not the base spell used and your argument is invalid. Did you read the rest of the chapter on portals or just skim until you found the quote you wanted? (i do the same thing unless i force myself to check it all, its a human thing) That quote i gave you was from the next page on creating portals. Its also why i said this If the character uses gate to build the portal then the teleportation effect is made through a creation effect bypassing your sealed astral. Not only that but your quote which i ignored as obvious states (The teleportation effect is similar to teleport without error cast by a 17th level caster, except that interplanar travel is possible.) Note that key word. Similar means that it resembles but does not necessarily the same as. It also lists the exception to the similarities. Now teleportation circle does not allow planar travel and is a teleportation effect so gates from point to point on a planet made through teleportation circle are effected. However, Portals can be made with gate. Gate as stated before is a creation effect that allows interplanar travels. Which means that gate based portals are not affected as stated earlier. So the argument that the argument is invalid, is in and of itself, invalid. Also note that i also took the time in the previous post to specificaly provide an alternative method to your counter argument 1hr and 13 min before you made your argument which leads me to believe that you missed it entirely so i will quote it A planar ring gate with the second gate placed flush against the second one way portal to a dead magic plane. Planar ring gate, PlHB gate based items
Khan the Destroyer 02-05-06, 04:28 AM	I'm pretty happy with my newest idea: incorporeal subtype. I'll need to get it via psion uncarnate because class abilities transfer via mind-switch but subtypes do not. So what do you think the new build for this guy is? The planar bubble thing is a bit annoying, but I think I am safe from it while on my plane, where abjurations of that nature do not function. Well, the actual Pun-Pun is safe from your temporal tom-foolery. He can send minions to do his bidding before the Terminator pulls this off. The trick is just to figure out a way to foil him. From what I can tell, Pun-Pun being outside of time will disallow a new timeline from being created. Because when you go back in time and kill his ancestors, he is unaffected by it, and will still remain alive in the 'present'. Is that right? Quick question: what else besides quintessence do I need to worry about? Anything not considered an attack should do the trick. Doh! Polymorph does not work on non-living creatures such as constructs. Neither does Polymorph Any Object according to the 3.5 FAQ. On page 47, it details what limitations are bypassed by PAO in regards to Polymorph. Targetting a non-living creature is not one of them. And as far as I know golems are not considered non-magical objects.
Lokiyn 02-05-06, 04:59 AM	Neither does Polymorph Any Object according to the 3.5 FAQ. On page 47, it details what limitations are bypassed by PAO in regards to Polymorph. Targetting a non-living creature is not one of them. And as far as I know golems are not considered non-magical objects. I checked and double checked this to be sure (insomnia is great for CO bad for life) 1.)Going from any prohibited type to the same type or allowed type is viable. 2.)PaO has a Target change to one creature which lifts the living and willing from the requirements. Also Golems enjoy a unique position, As discussed before Golems enjoy a dual nature, that of both a creature and a magical object. Spells that affect only creatures or only objects will not affect golems Spells that affect both creatures and objects will however. My position is that this applies as well to all constructs that are artificialy created. However this is a grey area, except for golems where it is clearly black and white. So i will only hold people to golems. An old example of this is fire immunity and cold immunity with the vulnerabilities as well. The dual elemental nature of the creature protects its otherwise vulnerable parts.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-05-06, 05:02 AM	As for build, it's pretty much arbitrary. There weren't any restrictions on how many levels I could have. Right now I'm thinking I'll need to add 10 levels of psion uncarnate, unless I can find a quicker way to get the incorporeal subtype as a class ability. Time Mumbo-Jumbo: It's all a matter of perspective. I'll give the perspective of the Terminator, as though he were omniscient of Pun-Pun's actions. In chronological order. 1. Terminator is born and becomes the Terminator 2. Pun-Pun is born and becomes Pun-Pun. 3. Pun-Pun goes infinite and realizes Terminator is a danger. 4. Pun-Pun decides that it is time to leave the time stream and let the minions take out the Terminator. 5. Pun-Pun exit stage right 6. Terminator is attacked and as a reaction starts regressing, assuming he is not hindered. Now play it backwards... from 6 to 1. It should become clear what happens when each step is undone (except the first). The fact that pun-pun moved out of the time stream is undone in step ~5 (~means now going backwards). So pun-pun leaving the time stream does nothing, as the act of doing so is still in the past. As for Polymorphing: If I cannot prove that polymorph any object works on constructs (the type) then so be it. I would like to point out however, that GOLEMS are a subset of CONSTRUCTS. Rules and insinuations regarding GOLEMS are not necessarily true for Constructs. I don't know where to find all these rules that relate golems to constructs, but I'll look into it later. However, I could make the Terminator a warforged. When the Aleax aquires the construct Type it would be redundant, as I already have the Type. My subtype would be (Living Construct). Thus the Aleax would be eligeable for polymorph. Once I switch however, I do not gain the subtype of the form I switch with. So my type changes to simply Construct. Incorporeal does wonders for a lot of miscellaneous immunities. The subtype grants the following: Can only be harmed by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. Due to the Aleax immunity we can strike out any of those that involve creatures, so now the list of things that can harm me goes down to: magic weapons, spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. But really, magic weapons cannot be used against me as that would constitute an attack. Also, all offensive spells (unless you can find an offensive divination or psychoportive spell) are useless on the plane I am on. Supernatural abilities are magical and thus any Su version of a spell that is not of the psychoportation or divination disciplines fail on the plane. This leaves me with the following vulnerabilities: Spells (spell effects must be instantaneous and must be cast outside the plane. In short, created objects or substances. Divination and Psychoportation spells also are possible, so long as they do not target the Terminator). supernatural effects (cannot be targeted, cannot be of any school of magic except divination or psychoportation, cannot be constituted as an attack against the Terminator.) Those are the only two things which can affect me, and even those are limited. (sorry to keep y'all up so late... this can continue tomorrow you know...)
Lokiyn 02-05-06, 02:35 PM	Now play it backwards... from 6 to 1. It should become clear what happens when each step is undone (except the first). The fact that pun-pun moved out of the time stream is undone in step ~5 (~means now going backwards). So pun-pun leaving the time stream does nothing, as the act of doing so is still in the past. Not quite. Lets take the perspective one step further back. Pun pun is currently having tea with the mad hatter as asking the march hare if this is a nice place to build a home. In the other realm time is rewinding. To preserve continuity a Temporal Duplicate of pun pun is created that emereges from the far realms and is rewound. In the mean time pun pun is asking for some crumpets, since pun pun is affected not by regression. Now if i wanted to be really mean i would point out that one of the three naturally occuring portals to the far realm leads to the begining of time. So pun pun after having a nice time playing hide and seek with the cheshire cat could go hunt down the three reentry points and reenter the multiverse at the beginning of time. As for Polymorphing: If I cannot prove that polymorph any object works on constructs (the type) then so be it. I would like to point out however, that GOLEMS are a subset of CONSTRUCTS. Rules and insinuations regarding GOLEMS are not necessarily true for Constructs. I don't know where to find all these rules that relate golems to constructs, but I'll look into it later. I cant hold anyone to all constructs as i stated earlier... twice , i maintain the position but i can only hold people to golems. (sorry to keep y'all up so late... this can continue tomorrow you know...) Meh insomnia's a b so i occupy myself at least it isn't chronic. Oh and you forgot make manifest and enimation that pun pun can make permenant through alter reality that forces all incorporeal creatures to become corporal within its boundries.
HotSake 02-05-06, 03:33 PM	Sorry, haven't read this thread in a while. Just wanted to touch on something you said on p. 5 or 6: I am weightless, and therefore not affected by gravity (destroying the Nova tactic). Massless, actually, and massless particles are still affected by gravity. See: photons, gravitational lensing, event horizon.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-05-06, 08:30 PM	Gravity Immunity: True HotSake, I should have remembered that. However, recall that the reason photons are affected by gravity is because they have a momentum of hf/c, which can be manipulated by gravity. I, however, am massless and have no velocity. In D&D I could cool myself arbitrarily (I think) and therefore I would have no momentum. Yes, this would increase my wave-length, but that doesn't matter. This is all assuming, of course, that quantum mechanics hold in D&D. Then again, by normal physics, teleporation doesn't exactly work. Make Manifest: You should read the spell more carefully Lokiyn. The spell states this: "You cause one creature on a COTERMINOUS OR COEXISTENT plane, along with its personal belongings, to suddenly appear on your plane of existence." There are no planes that are coterminous or coexistent with my plane, only the material plane has a coterminous plane to my knowledge. Perspective Issues: I have a solution to the matter. I will abuse the ice-assassin spell even further. Here's the plan: 1. Make another ice-assassin deity 2. Make an ice-assassin of myself, he cannot hurt me and is under my absolute control. 3. Command the ice-assassin of myself to make an ice-assassin of himself. Neither can affect the other due to the Aleax ability. 4. Use precipitate planar breach to get to the Far Realm. 5. All four of us (two ice assassins of me, and the ice-assassin deity) go through the breach. 6. Ice Assassin Deity 2 makes his godly realm here on the Far Realms. He transforms a piece of the Far Realms into a plane identical to the one the Original Terminator resides (limited magic all, except divination). 7. The three ice-assassins set up camp in the same manner that the Terminator does. 8. The Terminator goes back home. Now, we have essentially two terminators on two time-lines. If one doesn't cut it, then two will.
Lokiyn 02-05-06, 08:46 PM	Make Manifest: You should read the spell more carefully Lokiyn. The spell states this: "You cause one creature on a COTERMINOUS OR COEXISTENT plane, along with its personal belongings, to suddenly appear on your plane of existence." Nope, i Had the right effect, wrong spell name. The spell i refered to incorrectly as make manifest was instead, Ghost Trap on page 65 of the Libris Mortis. Also How do you plan on dealing with the fact that Pun-Pun has existed since the begining of time? In addition the Aleax immunities is easy to circumvent through spell turrets and magic items. Use activated items that trigger through proximity are vicious. Hmm i'm starting to get the feel of pun-pun light vs pun-pun, but thats just me. In addition there is nothing preventing pun pun from constructing all the pieces to the Crystal Cask Assembling all the pieces but one. then stripping himself of divinity and finishing the cask. which is nothing more than a ruthless application of flavor text
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-05-06, 09:22 PM	Immunity from magic items: Simple, I refer you to the planar traits. No offensive spells may function on this plane. Magic of that nature simply fails. Ghost Trap: Nice find, but alas it is an abjuration and will not function on my plane. Pun-Pun existing since the beginning of time: Err.... what? Teleport through time was loooonnggg since dispatched as it contained a DM fiat clause. The DM decides whether or not certain events are destined to happen or not. The DM could go either way, thus it is not a valid tactic. Pun-Pun vs. Pun-Pun light: Just an immunity build, not an infinity build. I see no correlation.
Khan the Destroyer 02-05-06, 09:44 PM	Pun-Pun existing since the beginning of time: Err.... what? I believe he is referring to the information in Manual of the Planes about the Far Realm being linked to the beginning of time. True, it is flavor text, but so is the bit about Aleax creation. Teleport through time was loooonnggg since dispatched as it contained a DM fiat clause. The DM decides whether or not certain events are destined to happen or not. The DM could go either way, thus it is not a valid tactic. If my memory serves me correctly, you were the only one that discounted Teleport Through Time. In all honesty, I don't see it as an invalid tactic. The DM decides whether the character can change history. Pun-Pun wouldn't be changing anything, he could simply 'maintain' history. Pun-Pun would simply interfere with the plans of the temporal interloper. This is not meddling with 'the past'. If it were, we would have to consider the man from the future as part of history, and if that were the case, Pun-Pun would never exist. So we can conclude that Pun-Pun can interfere with those from the future, in the past, without needing a DM adjudication, so long as he does nothing to tamper with the original sequence of historical events (historical events referring to everything that has already happened before anyone went back in time). Further, the DM cannot use anything within the rules to stop Pun-Pun if he did go back in time (for example, no god could stop Pun-Pun, let alone any non-deific NPC). Meaning that if the DM really wanted to stop Pun-Pun from doing anything, he would have to use DM fiat anyway. This doesn't reflect on the spell in any way. Alright, I'm confused about what the Terminator is doing in the Far Realms. If he is outside of time, how can he regress time? Further, what is stopping Pun-Pun from going into the future 2000 years, taking control of some outsider and powering him up, then having the Outsider regress time to before the Terminator's birth and slaying Big T's mother?
Lokiyn 02-05-06, 09:44 PM	Nope you forget There are three naturally occuring ways to reach the far realms. 1.) Travel through the heart of Dreams and pass through the Dreamheart 2.) Travel to the end of time and step forth through the chaos as reality ends to step outside into the far realms. 3.) Travel to the begining of time and do the same. Its known that at one point an elvish civilization built a portal to the far realms using high magics, but the end result was a civilization that was driven mad. which led to the collapse and loss of the location of that portal. Once pun pun is outside of reality all he simply needs to do is re enter reality through the third option. Which is you remember is exactly what the illithids did. Curiously enough there are multiple origins for the illithids. Spelljammer gave them a homeworld with stardestroying artifact, from whence they evolved much like the drow from being banished undergroung. The Illithid handbook has wizards passing through the far realm in an attempt to travel through time being driven mad and twisted by the journey, And the Lords of madness has them comming from a far distant future as well. Teleport time is a primative mechanism :D Or more seriously an example of working on a never finished campaign, that grew ever larger and more complex before it was abandoned
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-05-06, 10:04 PM	Yes, you are correct about the flavor text saying that one may enter the Far Realms by traveling to the end or beginning of time. However, no mention is made of exiting the Far Realm to the end or beginning of time. As for me getting to the Far Realm, I'll probably need to hire a 4th level NPC Elven Artificer to tell me where the lost portals are. :D To Khan: 1. Relevant Text on Teleport through Time: Special Note: The introduction of time travel into any campaign can be fraught with peril, so tread carefully. Players will wonder how much they can mess with the timeline, and you may run into instances of the grandfather paradox. Further, changes made very far back in time cannot really be worked out completely because of the chaotic aspect of events. Thus, it is simplest to use the rule that changes in time are minor and somehow time smooths them out. This argues for a determinism and predestination in the ways of your world, but you can say that once events have transpired, small perturbations are possible (this person lives rather than dies, but does not contribute to events in a meaningful way), but the large-scale events themselves somehow happen anyway. If the cause is changed, another cause comes along. In the case of someone killing their own grandfather, the PC might find that he is the same but has a different family when returning to the present. As long as you keep the knowledge of how to travel in time restricted, your campaign will not fall apart. Basically, it goes both ways on this text. Pun-Pun can go back as far as he wants, but the DM must decide how things work out in the end. This was the DM Fiat clause I talked about. In either case, if one takes the suggested route, then a major event like the destruction of a uber overdeity kobold by the Terminator cannot be eliminated. The Terminator might be born to a different family or something. What separates Teleport through Time from the Terminator's trick is that my spell contains no such clauses. Different spells do not necessarily have bearing or precedence over others. If pun-pun wants to hide in the past and do nothing to anyone (disturbing nothing) then I am fine with that. He's stuck in the past, meanwhile I reduce the probability of him ever returning to the future to zero by killing his parents. Using Terminators to terminate the Terminator: Sure you could do that, but then I could say that my Terminator is older than the guy you pump up. We would cycle back to the beginning of time. It is impossible to determine the winner of such a debate. It's like the chicken and the egg debate.
Lokiyn 02-05-06, 10:41 PM	Yes, you are correct about the flavor text saying that one may enter the Far Realms by traveling to the end or beginning of time. However, no mention is made of exiting the Far Realm to the end or beginning of time. There is, you just need to have an extensive knowlege of obscure information. In this case the only peoples who have used the far planes for time travel where the illithid. The The Astromundi Chronicles reference the spelljammer modules that had the original homeworld of the illithid. The Sargonne Prophecies tell of how the illithid came to this time. The 2e book of illithid further reveals the details in this. From the LoM we know how the illithid breached reality and traveled into the past. From the Illithid Handbook they explain what happened. The illithids moved through the far realm and reentered reality in the past. So flavor text from the second and third editions supports temproral travel though the far if you don't like that he can use the Temporal plane to move back in time as in page 209 fighting the winds, or simply utilize the Citadel of eternity from the same source (MotPl)
Khan the Destroyer 02-05-06, 10:52 PM	Basically, it goes both ways on this text. Pun-Pun can go back as far as he wants, but the DM must decide how things work out in the end. This was the DM Fiat clause I talked about. In either case, if one takes the suggested route, then a major event like the destruction of a uber overdeity kobold by the Terminator cannot be eliminated. The Terminator might be born to a different family or something. What separates Teleport through Time from the Terminator's trick is that my spell contains no such clauses. Different spells do not necessarily have bearing or precedence over others. If pun-pun wants to hide in the past and do nothing to anyone (disturbing nothing) then I am fine with that. He's stuck in the past, meanwhile I reduce the probability of him ever returning to the future to zero by killing his parents. I wasn't suggesting that Pun-Pun do nothing or that he kills the Terminator before he is born (at least, not with Teleport Through Time). I was suggesting that he use the spell to simply be at the precise point in time that the Terminator returns to, and that he foils whatever the Terminator tries to do. Foiling the Terminator is not changing time, because the Terminator himself is trying to rewrite history. And I do not mean foiling the Terminator by kidnapping Pun-Pun's ancestors, or slaying the Terminator's parents. I mean physically stopping the Terminator from seeing his plans through. This is not changing time because it never happened. Therefore, it wouldn't be subject to the DM. Using Terminators to terminate the Terminator: Sure you could do that, but then I could say that my Terminator is older than the guy you pump up. We would cycle back to the beginning of time. It is impossible to determine the winner of such a debate. It's like the chicken and the egg debate. Not really. Elan are created, so you must have been human at some point, so any Outsider can be older than you. Killoren are relatively new in-game, according to their flavor text in Races of the Wild, as well as Warforged (who may or may not be immortal). Any creature with a creator deity is younger than the deity at least, as well as its host of minions/followers. Most outsiders are spawned from planes, so none of them could have existed since the beginning of time. Pun-Pun has the means to find out who the oldest living being is (with infinite knowledge checks) and control him. The only way to stop this is to claim that your Terminator is the oldest living being. Which is quite a claim (I could claim the same about Pun-Pun).
SoulGamit 02-05-06, 11:01 PM	Just a thought, couldn't pun-pun just get a bunch of elder brains together, create a phychic malestorm and go back to the beggining of time like the Illithid did (As Described in Lords of Madness)?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-05-06, 11:16 PM	I'll just adress the who is older thing for a sec. Pun-Pun must be a native of Toril. He must use the abilities of the Sarrukh. I'm not a master of Faerunian lore, but those might be restrictive on whether or not he can be the oldest creature in existence, particularily the "native of Toril" bit. My build is not restricted by race. I can pick pretty much anything I desire and make it immortal by becoming a proxy. To me, without the restrictions that pun-pun has, it is entirely conceivable that I could be the oldest living thing in the multiverse. I don't really *want* to make that claim, but I could. I guess what I am trying to prove with this build is that I can make Pun-Pun dance. That he is not completely invulnerable. :eek: A new technique has occurred to me. It does matter that anyone is older than I. I still need to be older than pun-pun to get the levels I need though. It requires that I have survived the Pun-Pun ascendancy, in the status that I have been outlining so far in this thread. Here's an outline of the plan: 1. Terminator born 2. Pun-Pun born 3. Terminator enters his invulnerable state 4. Pun-Pun gains 5th level 5. Pun-Pun goes infinite 6. Terminator Regresses back to stage 4 and casts an ice-assassin of the pun-pun he knows from the future. This pun-pun is more powerful than the current pun-pun, but I have him under absolute control. 7. Pun-Pun is slain.
SoulGamit 02-06-06, 12:33 AM	Seriously, couldn't pun-pun just do what the illithid did to go back to the beggining of time, thereby existing before you? DM fait wouldn't even work because the Illithid did it and survived. Alternatively, after becomming infinite, could he not encase himself in quintessence and just let his clones then procede to become more infinite (and retain the ability to make him infinite in the unlikely event that he need be awakened)... really the clone part is just so I don't violate pun-pun's theme. Also, I believe psionics requires access to the weave to work (not 100% sure about this) so could he not just destroy the weave (mystria), thereby destroying everyone's access to magical power.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-06-06, 12:55 AM	Seriously, couldn't pun-pun just do what the illithid did to go back to the beggining of time, thereby existing before you? DM fait wouldn't even work because the Illithid did it and survived. Alternatively, after becomming infinite, could he not encase himself in quintessence and just let his clones then procede to become more infinite (and retain the ability to make him infinite in the unlikely event that he need be awakened)... really the clone part is just so I don't violate pun-pun's theme. Also, I believe psionics requires access to the weave to work (not 100% sure about this) so could he not just destroy the weave (mystria), thereby destroying everyone's access to magical power. I don't know man. The illithid trick isn't very clear. Perhaps one needs to know certain incantations, do a certain dance, have the stars align or something to make the illithid trick work. The text, so far as I know, basically says they sacrificed a bunch of Elder Brains. It didn't really elaborate on the procedure. Heck, if that's all it takes (sacrificing Elder Brains) then I could find an Elder Brain make an ice-assassin of it a couple of times over and sacrifice them, sending me back to the beginning of time. It's so vague that it seems to be pure speculation to me. The Aleax on the other hand is pretty clear: a deity can send one if he is angry. Bahamut at least is capable of this. If pun-pun wants to destroy the weave, then he could. This would effectively plunge the universe into a dead magic zone. None of Pun-Pun's supernatural abilities would work, nothing would really work. It'd be an apocalyptic tactic. It looks like the Terminator has struck a nerve with Pun-Pun. If the only thing pun-pun can do is destroy the multiverse or escape from the multiverse, I consider it a victory. The defeat of pun-pun is to reduce him to something less than he could be, preferrably to dust. Encasing himself in quintessence and having his clones do the work is hardly pun-pun's style. Who wants to gain infinite power and then end up not using it because you fear being erased from time?
Lokiyn 02-06-06, 01:00 AM	Illithids are irrelevent, The relevent point is that Pun-Pun has the capability to predated existance by entering/ existing in the univers as time begins. Using a variety of methods Destruction of the weave would affect only toril and only affect magic users shar was nice enough to provide a shadow weave, even if that is destroyed it only affects torril. Pun-Pun doesn't escape the multiverse or destroy it. He can simply make the multiverses existance or non existance irrelevant.
SoulGamit 02-06-06, 01:27 AM	I'll drop the illithid thing. If pun-pun wants to destroy the weave, then he could. This would effectively plunge the universe into a dead magic zone. None of Pun-Pun's supernatural abilities would work, nothing would really work. It'd be an apocalyptic tactic. actually he could grant himself access to the weave and no other. Encasing himself in quintessence and having his clones do the work is hardly pun-pun's style. Who wants to gain infinite power and then end up not using it because you fear being erased from time? He is still amasing power, just through his clones. He's just ensuring that he STAYS in power. Alternatively, he could seal an armada of clones in quintessense. When they got free, even if it took trillions of years, they'd remake pun-pun and/or continue amassing power.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-06-06, 01:34 AM	I'd prefer it if we kept to a reasonable level of "reality." This is starting to sound like the ol' "Pun-Pun can do it because he's Pun-Pun" argument. Lokiyn. Would you mind putting together a coherent list, backed with relevent text, on how pun-pun can travel to the beginning or end of time? Next, I plan to write up a treatise on why I could care less whether or not Pun-Pun goes back into the past or future. The objective of the Terminator is to eliminate pun-pun. If pun-pun escapes to the past, future, out of the multiverse, or othewise ceases to exist with respect to the Terminator then he has succeeded. The Terminator is in the "laboratory frame" so to speak, an he shares this viewpoint with the most of the multiverse. Finally, I would like to know if Pun-Pun can affect the Terminator as of yet. If any of you all think that I have not dealt with a tactic of pun-pun to your satisfaction please re-iterate what I should worry about. From my perspective all I see is tactic -> refutation, new tactic -> new refutation, etc. It's rather difficult to keep up with the barrage of stuff you're throwing out Lokiyn. I'd also like to make the battle field a little more clear. Clones of pun-pun are spawned after he existed. Regressions beyond the beginning of pun-pun destroys the creations of said clones. Having your clones run the show isn't my idea of power, but whatever floats your boat.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-06-06, 01:43 AM	Whoops. I just noticed your rather heated post about the mobile gate trick. Sorry. Well, the fact that the portal is either a conjuration (creation) or conjuration (teleporation) is irrelvant. Both magical schools are limited. I don't know why you got so worked up about that.
Lokiyn 02-06-06, 02:11 AM	hmm i don't seem all that heated to me ::shrugs:: Anyway, The thing is when i go to check on planar traits i found something interesting. Normal Magic This magic trait means that all Spells and supernatural abilities function as written. Unless otherwise noted in a description, every plane has the normal magic trait. Wild Magic On a plane with the wild magic trait Spells and spell-like abilities function in radically different and sometimes dangerous ways. Any Spell or spell-like ability used on a wild magic plane has a chance to go awry. The caster must make a level check (DC 15 + the level of the Spell or effect) for the magic to function normally. For spell-like abilities, use the level or HD of the creature employing the ability for the caster level check and the level of the spell-like ability to set the DC for the caster level check. Failure on this check means that something strange happens; roll d% and consult the following table. Impeded Magic Particular Spells and spell-like abilities are more difficult to cast on planes with this trait, often because the nature of the plane interferes with the spell. To cast an impeded spell, the caster must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the level of the spell). If the check fails, the Spell does not function but is still lost as a prepared Spell or Spell slot. If the check succeeds, the Spell functions normally. Enhanced Magic Particular Spells and spell-like abilities are easier to use or more powerful in effect on planes with this trait than they are on the Material Plane. Natives of a plane with the enhanced magic trait are aware of which Spells and spell-like abilities are enhanced, but planar travelers may have to discover this on their own. If a Spell is enhanced, certain metamagic feats can be applied to it without changing the Spell slot required or the casting time. Spellcasters on the plane are considered to have that feat or feats for the purpose of applying them to that spell. Spellcasters native to the plane must gain the feat or feats normally if they want to use them on other planes as well. Limited Magic Planes with this trait permit only the use of Spells and spell-like abilities that meet particular qualifications. Magic can be limited to effects from certain schools or subschools, to effects with certain descriptors, or to effects of a certain level (or any combination of these qualities). Spells and spell-like abilities that don’t meet the qualifications simply don’t work. Dead Magic These planes have no magic at all. A plane with the dead magic trait functions in all respects like an antimagic field spell. Divination Spells cannot detect subjects within a dead magic plane, nor can a spellcaster use teleport or another Spell to move in or out. The only exception to the “no magic” rule is permanent planar portals, which still function normally. Check this out The only planar trait that blocks magic items is the Dead magic trait. Any way Pun-Puns time tricks are easy. a.) into the far realm and back again an entry to the far realms is at the end and beginning of time b.) Citadel of eternity, at the physical manifestation of time pun pun simply re enters time at its beginning. c.)Temporal plane, Fighting the winds. Flavor wise if one is strong enough to move against the winds of time one can travel back. If pun pun isn't strong enough.... d.) Timeless body and wish to both rewind time and make himself immune to the effects. With wish at will as an (sp)(su) and (ex) pun pun has no problems with maintaining the reversal.
Khan the Destroyer 02-06-06, 03:21 AM	Pun-Pun must be a native of Toril. He must use the abilities of the Sarrukh. I'm not a master of Faerunian lore, but those might be restrictive on whether or not he can be the oldest creature in existence, particularily the "native of Toril" bit. At first glance, yes. But it is conceivable that Pun-Pun may be someone else that becomes a native of Toril through the Cosmic Connection ability of the Cosmic Descryer. Then he ascends. So, I guess the build that Pun-Pun uses to ascend is more relevant now. My build is not restricted by race. I can pick pretty much anything I desire and make it immortal by becoming a proxy. To me, without the restrictions that pun-pun has, it is entirely conceivable that I could be the oldest living thing in the multiverse. I don't really *want* to make that claim, but I could. I don't think you could. Any gods will be older than any non-deity/supreme power/elemental lord. You would have to assume that basically your attacker is some primal force that existed since the beginning of time. I guess what I am trying to prove with this build is that I can make Pun-Pun dance. That he is not completely invulnerable. You're certainly showing that :). 6. Terminator Regresses back to stage 4 and casts an ice-assassin of the pun-pun he knows from the future. This pun-pun is more powerful than the current pun-pun, but I have him under absolute control. The Ice Assassin spell creates a duplicate of an existing creature. So, you could not duplicate future Pun-Pun because he has yet to exist. This also means that you cannot use the Ice Assassin trick to create an Aleax, since you would need to have one first. This obviously limits the invulnerabilities of the Terminator. This is starting to sound like the ol' "Pun-Pun can do it because he's Pun-Pun" argument. For the record, I don't believe this has been argued before. Next, I plan to write up a treatise on why I could care less whether or not Pun-Pun goes back into the past or future. The objective of the Terminator is to eliminate pun-pun. If pun-pun escapes to the past, future, out of the multiverse, or othewise ceases to exist with respect to the Terminator then he has succeeded. The Terminator is in the "laboratory frame" so to speak, an he shares this viewpoint with the most of the multiverse. I think the easiest way to accomplish this is for the Terminator to commit suicide. But seriously, it does matter what Pun-Pun does. The Terminator is trying to create a new timeline, or trying to kill Pun-Pun. If Pun-Pun can stop him by travelling into the future or past and killing him/imprisoning him/whatever, how is it not relevant? Finally, I would like to know if Pun-Pun can affect the Terminator as of yet. Yes, he can. The Ice Assassin spell specifically says it creates a duplicate of an existing creature. So, unless you can show how you reliably get an Aleax of yourself into existance by RAW, you cannot duplicate one. Regressions beyond the beginning of pun-pun destroys the creations of said clones. Right, but Pun-Pun has 1000 years to act, so in the meantime the clones can do stuff for him. Likewise, if he creates the clones in the future, the regression wouldn't affect them. Currently, I am trying to get Pun-Pun into the future through some means not affected by Time Regression.
Lokiyn 02-06-06, 03:45 AM	Currently, I am trying to get Pun-Pun into the future through some means not affected by Time Regression. Temporal Stasis Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 8 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: Permanent Saving Throw: Fortitude negates Spell Resistance: Yes You must succeed on a melee touch attack. You place the subject into a state of suspended animation. For the creature, time ceases to flow and its condition becomes fixed. The creature does not grow older. Its body functions virtually cease, and no force or effect can harm it. This state persists until the magic is removed (such as by a successful dispel magic spell or a freedom spell). Material Component A powder composed of diamond, emerald, ruby, and sapphire dust with a total value of at least 5,000 gp.
Khan the Destroyer 02-06-06, 11:37 AM	Temporal Stasis Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 8 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: Permanent Saving Throw: Fortitude negates Spell Resistance: Yes You must succeed on a melee touch attack. You place the subject into a state of suspended animation. For the creature, time ceases to flow and its condition becomes fixed. The creature does not grow older. Its body functions virtually cease, and no force or effect can harm it. This state persists until the magic is removed (such as by a successful dispel magic spell or a freedom spell). Material Component A powder composed of diamond, emerald, ruby, and sapphire dust with a total value of at least 5,000 gp. The sentence in the bold enables Pun-Pun to stay in Stasis even after the Terminator regresses time, correct? The point would be to arrive into the future, and work against the Terminator there, where he cannot undo Pun-Pun's actions with Time Regression. Though, unless TG can find a way to create an Aleax of himself without Ice Assassin, Pun-Pun can just kill him now.
Lokiyn 02-06-06, 11:50 AM	Correct. I was in a hurry and didn't finish the post. The trick is to go ahead and use astral projection, then casting from the projection place the body in biological stasis into temporal stasis, leaveing pun-pun free from regression while still able to act. At best the terminator can regress the projection but he can never destroy pun pun since the projection will always come back.... If nothing else pun pun can sneak his stasised body into a position where it travels back to the past with the illithids in the future, thus piggybacking him into the past on an iconic event.
NobertJoe 02-06-06, 12:27 PM	This is a radical theory, so please bear with me. The reason that the terminater can't go back and kill pun pun is that because as a being with NI mental stats and alter reality, and every ability printed (and even some that aren't) will, once ascending to godhood and infinite power, take as many precautions as possible to assure his infinity. The best solution, and clearly the one that any god who usurped his powers through magical means, would take, is simple to erase magic from the multiverse. Either you create an Anti Magic field of NI size, or you simply alter reality to the point where magic doesn't exist. You erase anything that is even in any way remotly magical. You erase all kobolds, because they are a direct threat. You erase all of the (creatures that have manipulate form). You erase all the immortal races, all the magical animals and creatures. You erase everything that seems magical. You unbind all magic everywhere and make it so that it may never used ever. This secures your lofty pearch. Perhaps there really were unicrons and dragons in our past....until Pun Pun came. ooo and he would get rid of any planes (like the astral and shadow that exist outside of his ability to sense)
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-06-06, 06:50 PM	I'm a bit pressed for time, but I see a few arguments floating around here that are patently wrong. 1. Termainator cannot make an Ice-Assassin of an Aleax: Terminator does not make an ice-assassin of an Aleax before the Aleax exists. He commands his Ice-Assassin deity (of a deity that exists) to make an Aleax of the Terminator. The Terminator then makes an Ice-Assassin of that Aleax and then procedes to mind-switch with it. 2. Pun-Pun destroys the multiverse, or otherwise destroys what is considered to be normal: This goes against the original assumptions of the thread. I fully realize that pun-pun has the capability to significantly alter the Multiverse. However, to keep things on a some-what fair playing field I have assumed that the Terminator is allowed to exist. This assumption includes that the entire build technique is allowed to exist. In exchange, I allow pun-pun to exist. 3. Techniques that remove Pun-Pun from the time stream: In the conception of the thread I used the tactic of placing my crown in quintessence to remove it from the timestream. However, it was pointed out, and I later agreed, that this idea is flawed because the quintessence could only have been manufactured at a point before the last regression. Thus, if pun-pun wants to sit in a vat of quintessence of put his body in temporal stasis he will still run into the problem that I can regress beyond the point in which he was put into stasis. This would undo the part where he is put into stasis. The same is true for pun-pun entering the far-realm (by a portal, not by going back to the beginning of time). This assumes that pun-pun does not travel back to a point beyond the Terminator's birth. 4. Limited Magic Does Not stop Supernatural: This is admittedly fuzzy, and I'm a tad worried about it myself. The justification that I run under is that it says "magic" is limited to certain schools. Under the description of a supernatural ability it says that it is magical in nature. Furthermore, the normal magic traits say that supernatural abilities act as normal, implying that they might act differently than normal in other situations. When it talks about limited magic it doesn't list supernatural abilities as limited, although it does use the blanket word: "magic." I assume they did not include supernatural abilities in the listing because most supernatural abilities do not have a school. However, supernatural abilities that emulate spells do not lose their school or descriptors. At first I thought this was a reasonable justification, but perhaps it isn't as rigorous as you all would like. A tactic that would work, but has a fatal flaw: ~Pun-Pun uses Teleport through time to go back in time before the existance of the Terminator. He then uses a permanent astral projection and places his real body in Temporal Stasis. His astral projection time-hops back to the future. This sounds peachy right? The fatal flaw: his silver cord. It's hardly far-fetched to say that his silver cord could be severed. Variations on this theme might work, however. I'm not exactly sure how to stop bonafide clones of pun-pun time-hopping back to the future. I'll think on this later You know, any help on my side would also be appreciated... This ain't easy.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-06-06, 06:59 PM	Another invulnerability technique that I have been mulling over. 1. Alter Reality (from ice-assassin deity) to make timeless body permanent on Terminator 2. Temporal Stasis on psi-crystal. 3. Begin regressions on psi-crystal in pocket. Effect: I am immune to all helpful and harmful effects, attacks and powers. My psi-crystal cannot be harmed. I manifest time-regressions on the Psi-crystal, as I can target my psi-crystal with personal powers with a touch. The effect does not cause it harm. The crystal regresses 1 round (so does the multiverse) but I do not. So long as I remain fixed in space for the duration of the regressions all should be fine. Is this weird? Yes.
Lokiyn 02-06-06, 09:02 PM	4. Limited Magic Does Not stop Supernatural: This is admittedly fuzzy, and I'm a tad worried about it myself. The justification that I run under is that it says "magic" is limited to certain schools. Under the description of a supernatural ability it says that it is magical in nature. Furthermore, the normal magic traits say that supernatural abilities act as normal, implying that they might act differently than normal in other situations. When it talks about limited magic it doesn't list supernatural abilities as limited, although it does use the blanket word: "magic." I assume they did not include supernatural abilities in the listing because most supernatural abilities do not have a school. However, supernatural abilities that emulate spells do not lose their school or descriptors. At first I thought this was a reasonable justification, but perhaps it isn't as rigorous as you all would like. The argument is that the traits do not block magic items Allowing pun pun to use a butterfly net to deposit the terminator in a nice gulag. Check this out The only planar trait that blocks magic items is the Dead magic trait.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-06-06, 09:28 PM	Ok, wait. I *think* I see what you're saying. You are saying that because permanent portals function in the absence of magic that Limited magic does not impede their function. I can believe that statement. But, I still find it hard to believe that ANY magical item would function in a limited magic area by the same logic. By *that* logic I could sit in a dead magic area and use my psi-crown to bust off regressions. That seems silly to me, as the magic item I am using is basically a spell-completion item. Conclusion: If you are using this to justify the use of permanent (possibly mobile) portals to "net" the Terminator, I believe you. Otherwise, I'm not sure your logic is sound. The butterfly net tactic represents a bit of a problem for me. I'll try to come up with a solution later.
Lokiyn 02-06-06, 11:20 PM	Not quite You missed the important parts, i'll pull the relevent section since it is a large quote Dead Magic These planes have no magic at all. A plane with the dead magic trait functions in all respects like an antimagic field spell. Divination Spells cannot detect subjects within a dead magic plane, nor can a spellcaster use teleport or another Spell to move in or out. The only exception to the “no magic” rule is permanent planar portals, which still function normally. The other planes only limit spells and spell like abilities. What this means is that magical items that don't cast spells or or spell like abilities still work.... Also yes, permenant planar portals are specifically exempt. something about pun pun carrying around a butterfly net of doom cracks me up.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-06-06, 11:32 PM	Sure, ok. Magic items that don't cast spells or spell-like abilities would function. I guess my imagination isn't in high gear. What magic items besides the mobile portal should I look out for? That is to say, what magic items do not replicate spell effects and can be activated by themselves (without resorting to a spell-effect)? Bear in mind that a magic item held by a creature used to attack me is considered an attack made by a creature. To say that it is not would be like saying, "I don't kill people, guns do." Also, what do you think of the second invulnerability method mentioned? (a couple posts up).
Khan the Destroyer 02-07-06, 12:26 AM	1. Termainator cannot make an Ice-Assassin of an Aleax: Terminator does not make an ice-assassin of an Aleax before the Aleax exists. He commands his Ice-Assassin deity (of a deity that exists) to make an Aleax of the Terminator. The Terminator then makes an Ice-Assassin of that Aleax and then procedes to mind-switch with it. Right, this is where the whole 'flavor text' argument came from. Sorry. There's a lot of posts so I have trouble keeping track of things :). 2. Pun-Pun destroys the multiverse, or otherwise destroys what is considered to be normal: This goes against the original assumptions of the thread. I fully realize that pun-pun has the capability to significantly alter the Multiverse. However, to keep things on a some-what fair playing field I have assumed that the Terminator is allowed to exist. This assumption includes that the entire build technique is allowed to exist. I wouldn't really want to assume this anyway really. I try to keep Pun-Pun as neutral as possible. It is less complicated for him that way. In exchange, I allow pun-pun to exist. Oh there's no question about it ;). 3. Techniques that remove Pun-Pun from the time stream: In the conception of the thread I used the tactic of placing my crown in quintessence to remove it from the timestream. However, it was pointed out, and I later agreed, that this idea is flawed because the quintessence could only have been manufactured at a point before the last regression. Thus, if pun-pun wants to sit in a vat of quintessence of put his body in temporal stasis he will still run into the problem that I can regress beyond the point in which he was put into stasis. This would undo the part where he is put into stasis. The same is true for pun-pun entering the far-realm (by a portal, not by going back to the beginning of time). This assumes that pun-pun does not travel back to a point beyond the Terminator's birth. This whole thing confuses me. Once he is out of the time stream, he is not affected by it. You can regress all you want but it won't matter. This is because if Pun-Pun is in the Far Realm (for instance), 1 minute there equals 0 minutes on the material plane. So, Pun-Pun would vanish from the Far Realm as soon as you regressed beyond the point that he entered it. Except that that point would never come as far as he is concerned because there is no time in the Far Realm. He goes back the instant time is turned, but that instant never comes. A tactic that would work, but has a fatal flaw: ~Pun-Pun uses Teleport through time to go back in time before the existance of the Terminator. He then uses a permanent astral projection and places his real body in Temporal Stasis. His astral projection time-hops back to the future. This sounds peachy right? The fatal flaw: his silver cord. It's hardly far-fetched to say that his silver cord could be severed. Oh come now... I wouldn't have suggested Astral Projection if I thought it would be fatal ;). There are three ways to sever a silver cord. The Githyanki Silver Swords, a Psychic Wind, and the Astral Dreadnought. Both the Githyanki and the Dreadnought have to hit the Silver Cord. The AC is equal to Pun-Pun's AC. They obviously cannot hit it except on a natural 20. The Dreadnought has to either flank Pun-Pun, catch him flat-footed, or attack him while he is panicked and fleeing in order to attack the Silver Cord. It can do none of these. The Githyanki may stand a chance, assuming it rolled a natural 20, but Pun-Pun is aware the instant his Silver Chord is threatened (as per the rules in Manual of the Planes). Meaning he has an Immediate Action (Anticipatory Strike) to stop it. Further, he can force re-rolls, making the situation less probable. That leaves the Psychic Storm. There is a 15% chance that the cord takes 2d10 points of damage (average 11 damage). This wouldn't sever the cord. There is a 5% chance that the cord takes 4d10 points of damage (average 22 damage). This may sever the cord, depending on whether the cord's hardness is factored in (it has hardness 10). In either case, it is rare for a Psychic Storm to reach that strength, and Pun-Pun can use his immediate action to flee before he is affected by it. You know, any help on my side would also be appreciated... This ain't easy. If anything strikes me, I will offer it. But to be honest, you guys twist the rules in ways that just aren't intuitive to me :). (That's meant to be a compliment.) 1. Alter Reality (from ice-assassin deity) to make timeless body permanent on Terminator 2. Temporal Stasis on psi-crystal. 3. Begin regressions on psi-crystal in pocket. Effect: I am immune to all helpful and harmful effects, attacks and powers. My psi-crystal cannot be harmed. I manifest time-regressions on the Psi-crystal, as I can target my psi-crystal with personal powers with a touch. The effect does not cause it harm. The crystal regresses 1 round (so does the multiverse) but I do not. So long as I remain fixed in space for the duration of the regressions all should be fine. Temporal Stasis locks the temporal 'location' of your psicrystal, so it cannot be regressed. Also, if the point is that you do not regress because of Timeless Body, wouldn't that work for Pun-Pun as well?
bomaz 02-07-06, 01:21 AM	I'm somewhat unsure as to this but since pun-pun is your target he can harm you. Also you can be disjuncted out of your magical protection. this meaning that pun-pun can kill you. Now since pun-pun traveled back in time he existed in the begining of the universe buffing himself to the time you try to kill him pre-ascention. then he stops you.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-07-06, 01:24 AM	Hmmph. Good point. I would be regressed while under the timeless body. The fact that I wouldn't was a carry over from when I originally planned to manifest it on myself, not my psi-crystal. Since the power does not target me anymore I would be affected. That's what I get for not thinking thoroughly. As for the whole time-immunity notion, I've thought of this theory: 1. If we look at it from the perspective of the Terminator, the actions of all are undone, including pun-pun entering stasis. 2. If we look at it from pun-pun's perspective, Pun-Pun is unnaffected by the flow of time and sees nothing (though his astral clone or what-have-you would). How does one reconcile the two different perspectives? Unfortunately, I'm not seeing any universal constants or variable changes to make an Einstein-like theory of D&D relativity. I give you my attempt at a mathematical theory for this, however, it still does not reconcile the two view-points. Strange things happen when one begins applying scaling effects to the time-line. Some planes move along the time axis more quickly or more slowly than others. In the case of Temporal Stasis the coefficient of the time is zero (condition fixed). In the case of the Far-Realms the coefficient is infinity (allowing one to take infinite actions in the span of 1 round on the material plane). If the Terminator were on a fast time plane he would regress one round in fast time, which would regress multiple rounds on the prime-material plane. In this way I could increase the effective "material plane" age of the Terminator, by allowing myself to regress more rounds on the material plane than I have existed, so long as I was born in the fast time frame and do not regress any more rounds there than I have existed. Unless one is in temporal stasis or on the Far-realms, they can always say when any given action they preformed in terms of material plane time. This gives us the capability to write down a record of all actions of any given creature on equal terms. If pun-pun were to go into stasis the function describing his actions would look like the following (assuming he went to a few flowing time planes in his life) f(t) = {At for 0<t<a {Bt for a<t<b {Ct for b<t<c {t for c<t<d {0t for d<t<e A, B, C, 1, 0, are coefficients of t describing how fast time moved for Pun-Pun in terms of material time. from d<t<e we see that Pun-Pun entered Temporal Stasis. The current time is e. So we see that the function describing Pun-Pun's life has a jump discontinuity at d. A normal person (who does never has a time coefficient of 0 or infinity) would have no such jump discontinuities. I'm not really sure how to translate these lack of continuity into words. The function *IS* piecewise continuous. Thus a linear transformation should still move it back one round. However, it's hard to fathom the nature of a discontinuity in time in "real-life" terms. I am of the opinion that no matter what pun-pun's timeline function looks like, it will always be piecewise continuous, unless he goes to the far-realms when the coefficient becomes undefined. So I conclude that temporal stasis will not avail pun-pun.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-07-06, 02:14 AM	Yo Ho Ho and bottle of PWN4G3!! I just discovered the demi-lich immunity line: immune to all spells and supernatural effects except shatter, dispel evil, and holy smite. I'm sure that I can find a way to cover those three holes, if the Aleax ability does not already cover them. Getting the form will require some heavy duty trickery though. Lich applies only to humanoids, and Demi-Lich applies only to liches. I cannot switch out of the Aleax, body without losing its abilities The tricky thing is I need to switch with my ice-assassin, who would be a demi-lich. Demi-liches are immune to mind-affecting abilities and polymorph, not to mention all magical and supernatural effects. Conclusion: I will need to switch into the Aleax body before becomming a demi-lich. This will require LordofProcrastination style cheese (Dirty Trick #1). Once I switch into the Aleax, as described earlier, I'll need to use PaO to become a humanoid. Then I'll need to become a lich while polymorphed (making me a valid target). This changes my type to Undead and I now qualify for demi-lich. If you don't like that, I could use polymorph to make myself a valid target for Awaken, changing my type to magical beast as an instantaneous effect.... hmmm I'm not sure where to go from there. I'll think on it.
SoulGamit 02-07-06, 09:44 AM	One question, if the far realms have that time trait, couldn't Pun-Pun make his own plane with that time effect via that 9th level spell? I'd love to be more help, TG, but I, unfortunately, lost track of this thread and have little clue as to what you're trying to do.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-07-06, 11:11 AM	Yes, that's the problem. I think only one other person really understands what's going on (Lokiyn) and then Khan has about 80% of it. Here's the basic idea: The old terminator tried to make himself annoymous from pun-pun, so that pun-pun could not know who was regressing or where. Thus pun-pun could not stop him. The new terminator just tries to become immune to pun-pun. Instead of hiding the idea is that Pun-Pun cannot affect him. So far I plan on using the following immunities to help me in that goal: *incorporeal: immune to non-magical damage *Aleax: immune to any attack by a creature *Demi-Lich: Immune to magical effects (spells and supernatural abilities) except 3 specific spells. *Limited magic planar traits: Prohibit the use of all magical schools except divination. Thus far the one tactic that I see as a possible hole in this immunity is Lokiyn's mobile portal trick. Where he basically waves a mobile portal over me and sends me to a dead magic plane. As for your time question: I don't know. I'm still hashing out a good theory for the two limiting cases: 0 time coefficient (temporal stasis) and infinite time coefficinet (far realms).
SoulGamit 02-07-06, 11:51 AM	Can't pun-pun make artifacts and thus create spheres of anihalation to kill you (I believe that was one of the divine portfolio abilities, correct me if I'm wrong). Though, barring artifacts, which I'd rather not stoop to... Wouldn't your own limited magic plane thing prevent you from going back in time, since that power isn't divination, or does magic-psionics transpiracy doesn't apply? Also, if you're incorporeal, doesn't that mean you "wink out" in a dead magic zone/antimagic field, therefore pun-pun can keep you "winked out" for eternity? Finnally, how are you becomming a Demi-Lich or Aleax? Neither have a listed LA, and Alexes are created only be dieties. I suppose you might be able to shapechange into one, but aren't they unique creatures? And Demi-Lich is a template, so no shapechanging into that.
Khan the Destroyer 02-07-06, 12:10 PM	f(t) = {At for 0<t<a {Bt for a<t<b {Ct for b<t<c {t for c<t<d {0t for d<t<e A, B, C, 1, 0, are coefficients of t describing how fast time moved for Pun-Pun in terms of material time. from d<t<e we see that Pun-Pun entered Temporal Stasis. The current time is e. So we see that the function describing Pun-Pun's life has a jump discontinuity at d. A normal person (who does never has a time coefficient of 0 or infinity) would have no such jump discontinuities. :help: Thus far the one tactic that I see as a possible hole in this immunity is Lokiyn's mobile portal trick. Where he basically waves a mobile portal over me and sends me to a dead magic plane. The Annulus would also bypass those immunities, since it isn't considered an attack. Wouldn't your own limited magic plane thing prevent you from going back in time, since that power isn't divination, or does magic-psionics transpiracy doesn't apply? All schools of magic are barred except for the Psychoportation psionic discipline, which allows him to use Time Regression. Also, if you're incorporeal, doesn't that mean you "wink out" in a dead magic zone/antimagic field, therefore pun-pun can keep you "winked out" for eternity? His plane is not a dead magic plane, it has limited magic. In other words, it isn't an antimagic field. Finnally, how are you becomming a Demi-Lich or Aleax? Neither have a listed LA, and Alexes are created only be dieties. I suppose you might be able to shapechange into one, but aren't they unique creatures? And Demi-Lich is a template, so no shapechanging into that. He explains this a few posts back. I still have to go over it.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-07-06, 12:14 PM	Psychoportation is the school of magic that Time Regression belongs to. There is no equivalent school for Psychoportation and thus it is not stopped when one limits all the schools of magic. All other psionic schools have their equivalent, except psychoportation. I gain the form of an Aleax by summoning an ice-assassin deity, then telling him to make an Aleax of me. I then make an ice-assassin of this Aleax and mind-switch with it. This gives me the extraordinary abilities of an Aleax (which includes the attack invulnerability called Singular Enemy). As for getting the form of a Demi-Lich. I'm not so sure how to do this anymore. I was thinking of becoming one by simply adding the template to me, after I gain the Aleax ability. However, that's not as cut and dry as I would like. There HAS to be a way to get it, however. I intend to find it. (that is without resorting to manipulate form).
SoulGamit 02-07-06, 12:16 PM	No, I mean couldn't pun-pun create a dead magic zone / antimagic field on top of him, using planar baubbel or some such to cast that spell on the limited magic plane? Oh, and he wouldn't have to cast planar baubbel on that plane, he could cast it on another plane, and then teleport (using psionics) into the plane.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-07-06, 12:50 PM	Planar BUBBLE is an abjuration and no matter where he casts it, it will not function on my plane. Furthermore, we have not found a way to manufacture dead magic zones, except in the creation of a plane. So, I'm still on the trail for a way to become a Demi-Lich. This is what I need: A way to become humanoid. This allows me to become a lich. Then I can become a demi-lich. So far the best I've got is: Possess mortal (conjure a humanoid ice-assassin deity with the ability) and it will grant me his type.
bomaz 02-07-06, 01:08 PM	an epic spell to destroy the plane the terminator hides in?
SoulGamit 02-07-06, 01:35 PM	I believe there is a Reality Revision power (which is equivilent to divination, which is allowed on your plane) could mimic a null psionics field to wink you out then? Or, if magic-psionics transpiricy is in effect I suppose one could make an antimagic field... "Furthermore, we have not found a way to manufacture dead magic zones, except in the creation of a plane." As per MoF, page 10, a wish or miracle spell can create a dead magic zone, so it's a safe assumption that a reality revision spell could as well. Of course, there's that nasty word "theory" in the same sentence, but if a wish/miracle could repair a dead magic zone it's not too far off to say that they could create one... Still, it is incredably ambiguis.
Khan the Destroyer 02-07-06, 01:40 PM	The reason artifacts were disallowed is because there are no rules in the books governing their creation (although we are referred to the rules for Epic Item Creation, so there actually are). For whatever reason, this is bypassed with the Aleax creation, which likewise has no rules for creation. So is it safe to assume that artifacts are back in play, since we know Pun-Pun and any other greater deity can create them, just as the Aleax. If so, the Annulus will still destroy the Terminator. If not, why is Aleax creation allowed? EDIT: SoulGamit, nice catch on Reality Revision.That will open things up quite a bit.
Lokiyn 02-07-06, 02:29 PM	EDIT: SoulGamit, nice catch on Reality Revision.That will open things up quite a bit. Summoned creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field. :cool:
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-07-06, 04:17 PM	Well I'll be! Reality Revision *IS* clairsentience. Just when I thought divination was non-offensive only. Hmm... I may have to restrict divinations as well, which leaves me wondering how I can collect information. I wonder if the Omniscificer trick would work? As for the ANNULUS: I've been thinking this over, and I believe I have a good solution. This solution will also reduce the unweildy epic-ness of the build. I'll just not be a psionic character. I'll use wish to get my psi-crown and then use UPD to activate it. As for mind-switching, I can also wish for a psi-crown of mind-switch if I like. This cuts down the build requirements by about 1/3. Of course, I'll need to find a way to become incorporeal now via a non-psionic class ability. If need be, I can keep a spare psi-crown in a handy haversack (in an extra dimensional space so that it is not subject to an Annulus blast). Anyone know of a PrC that grants the incorporeal sub-type (and is non-psionic)? As for the Demi-Lich stuff: I'm stumped. No idea how to get it without manipulate form. New Anti-Terminator Tactic and Rebuttal: No one has mentioned this yet, but I see a vulnerability. Using a portable hole + bag of holding to suck the Terminator to the Astral Plane. Solution: I can make my godly realm on the Astral Plane, rendering this effect redundant.
Lokiyn 02-07-06, 06:14 PM	New Anti-Terminator Tactic and Rebuttal: No one has mentioned this yet, but I see a vulnerability. Using a portable hole + bag of holding to suck the Terminator to the Astral Plane. Solution: I can make my godly realm on the Astral Plane, rendering this effect redundant. Familiar A deity of rank 1 or higher with levels as a sorcerer or a wizard has the ability to treat any creature of a given kind as a familiar, as long as that creature is within a distance of one mile per divine rank of the deity. This special familiar ability only applies to one creature at a time, but the deity can switch between one creature and another instantaneously, as long as the second creature is within range. This special familiar ability does not replace the deity’s ability to have a normal familiar, which could be any kind of eligible creature. Oh i'd love to see the fight with a proxied familiar ice assasin Astral Dreadnought fight. Also have you thought about what do do if pun pun declares a sphere 60,000 miles in radius centered about toril as his divine realm? All he needs is 3,168,000 DvR.... Of course with Divine Splenfor that means every mortal within 6000 miles of pun pun dies immediatly Also i didn't catch it but how are you stopping a use of life and death?
SoulGamit 02-07-06, 06:58 PM	Summoned creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field. If he's a demilich he is an undead, that's what I was basing that arguement on EDIT: SoulGamit, nice catch on Reality Revision.That will open things up quite a bit. Yay! Third time's the charm. Anyone know of a PrC that grants the incorporeal sub-type (and is non-psionic)? Would a spell work? I believe there's one in Libris Mortis. You could be an Unbodied, I beleive they are immortal too (though I'm not sure). What class gives Use Psionic Device that isn't itself psionic, btw? Besides exemplar of course...
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-07-06, 07:26 PM	Oh i'd love to see the fight with a proxied familiar ice assasin Astral Dreadnought fight. Also have you thought about what do do if pun pun declares a sphere 60,000 miles in radius centered about toril as his divine realm? All he needs is 3,168,000 DvR.... Of course with Divine Splenfor that means every mortal within 6000 miles of pun pun dies immediatly Also i didn't catch it but how are you stopping a use of life and death? I believe a realm may only be one one plane, so he'd have to pick a plane into which he would claim his 60,000 miles. The Astral plane is infinite. Life and death is a targeted effect that could be construed as an attack. This is covered by the Aleax ability. The same could be said of a sphere of annihilation. Both require a creature to activate and target the attack. As to gaining the incorporeal subtype with a spell -- is that an instantaneous effect? If so then great, if not I doubt it will function on my realm. Anyone have an idea of how to get the magic immunity of a demi-lich without being a demi-lich? Furthermore, if I *did* have such an immunity would I be able to cast spells on myself? If not, then I'd say that the Demi-Lich immunity is quite a pain for any demi-liches out there.
SoulGamit 02-07-06, 08:14 PM	since it doesn't function like SR, ya it does work on spells you (can't) cast on yourself. I don't think your Aleax ability doesn't not prevent you from being damaged by environmental effects... so dropping a tub of lava in your general area would probably work (not at first, since it's innitially an attack, but the 20d6 damage every turn after isn't). As to gaining the incorporeal subtype with a spell -- is that an instantaneous effect? If so then great, if not I doubt it will function on my realm. no it isn't, sry. You could be undead, a ghost or something... of course then you have to worry about wink lock.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-07-06, 08:52 PM	A tank of lava wouldn't touch me if I were incorporeal, as it's non-magical. I checked the ghost-form spell, and that won't cut it. I *could* be an unbodied, however mind-switch does not grant one the subtype of their new form... which is ridiculous 90% of the time (with the exception of alignment subtypes). Thus, I need to get the subtype via a class ability. I think that I could use Illithid Savant to do this, if I suck out the brain of an unbodied (which is not immune to extract). This lacks class, but it might just be necessary. So now we're back at Aleax + incorporeal + planar traits. However, I've eliminated my vulnerability to the Annulus by not being a psionic character. Note also that I am not divine, so anti-god artifacts do not function against me. The only thing that I've yet to counter is the mobile gate tactic. So here I go: "Unless the builder has preset some limit, any number of creatures can pass through a portal each round. A creature using a portal can take along up to 850 pounds of gear. In this case, gear is anything a creature carries or touches." Perhaps I could have over 850 pounds of stuff in my possession (it would all need to be ghost-touch so that I could manipulate it). It's not exactly clear what happens if one goes over the weight limit. I assume the simplest answer is that I simply do not go through unless I unload some of my equipment. Otherwise the gate would need to select which gear does not go through. Generally the simplest answer is the best, and having the gate make a decision is not as simple as simply denying passage.
SoulGamit 02-07-06, 09:40 PM	How about a lake of holywater then. Less damaging, but it'd get the job done. Can illithid savant take thing's subtypes? I don't recall that ability... Illithids are also psionic creatures. The problem with your gate theory is the word "can." When one goes through the gate they CAN choose to take up to 850lb worth of gear with them. They are not forced to, so it's probable that you just go through without any gear if you do not choose any gear that weighs 850lb or less.
Khan the Destroyer 02-08-06, 02:40 AM	As for the ANNULUS: I've been thinking this over, and I believe I have a good solution. This solution will also reduce the unweildy epic-ness of the build. I'll just not be a psionic character. I'll use wish to get my psi-crown and then use UPD to activate it. As for mind-switching, I can also wish for a psi-crown of mind-switch if I like. This cuts down the build requirements by about 1/3. Of course, I'll need to find a way to become incorporeal now via a non-psionic class ability. If need be, I can keep a spare psi-crown in a handy haversack (in an extra dimensional space so that it is not subject to an Annulus blast). Ok. Anyone know of a PrC that grants the incorporeal sub-type (and is non-psionic)? I can't think of one off of the top of my head. Perhaps a template or something? Maybe obtaining it after your Mind Switch. The rules in Savage Species about form-changing rituals might help. I know that they are suggestions and what have you but, it might be something to look at. As for the Demi-Lich stuff: I'm stumped. No idea how to get it without manipulate form. I'm not sure what is hindering you from becoming a demi-lich the traditional way. Is it the humanoid type? New Anti-Terminator Tactic and Rebuttal: No one has mentioned this yet, but I see a vulnerability. Using a portable hole + bag of holding to suck the Terminator to the Astral Plane. Solution: I can make my godly realm on the Astral Plane, rendering this effect redundant. True. Though sucking you out of your plane and forcing you somewhere else would alleviate the planar traits limiting magic. And with an infinite spot check, Pun-Pun could find your random location. Anyone have an idea of how to get the magic immunity of a demi-lich without being a demi-lich? Furthermore, if I *did* have such an immunity would I be able to cast spells on myself? If not, then I'd say that the Demi-Lich immunity is quite a pain for any demi-liches out there. I'd have to imagine that you could cast spells on yourself. I checked quickly in the MM for a rules reference on immunities and didn't find anything. I vaguely remember something that protects you from some other thing, but you can drop that protection if you want. Note also that I am not divine, so anti-god artifacts do not function against me. I think you might have to be. Certain SDA's will prove obstructive to the Terminator if he isn't a deity. Call Creatures- When Pun-Pun finds out who is trying to kill him, he can simply call the Terminator to him and Big T will have to serve Pun-Pun. Divine Splendor- Plane Shift to the Terminator's plane and he dies. This isn't an attack. Possess Mortal- As it sounds. Spells that block or end possession work against it, but Pun-Pun an counterspell/dispel them. "Unless the builder has preset some limit, any number of creatures can pass through a portal each round. A creature using a portal can take along up to 850 pounds of gear. In this case, gear is anything a creature carries or touches." Perhaps I could have over 850 pounds of stuff in my possession (it would all need to be ghost-touch so that I could manipulate it). It's not exactly clear what happens if one goes over the weight limit. I assume the simplest answer is that I simply do not go through unless I unload some of my equipment. Otherwise the gate would need to select which gear does not go through. Generally the simplest answer is the best, and having the gate make a decision is not as simple as simply denying passage. The description doesn't mention what would happen unfortunately. We could assume that a person could not go through, but it would only be an assumption. What class gives Use Psionic Device that isn't itself psionic, btw? Besides exemplar of course... Probably none. But he can just take them cross-class. And get skill-boosting items to make up for the ranks. The problem with your gate theory is the word "can." When one goes through the gate they CAN choose to take up to 850lb worth of gear with them. They are not forced to, so it's probable that you just go through without any gear if you do not choose any gear that weighs 850lb or less. This makes sense. TheTerminator has no choice to go through the portal, assuming he is being forced. But he does have a choice of what to bring. All we know is that he can't bring more than 850 lbs. worth of stuff. So, he just gets to choose what to leave behind.
SigmaJargon 02-08-06, 02:55 AM	Probably none. But he can just take them cross-class. And get skill-boosting items to make up for the ranks.There are two other non-psionic non-Exemplar classes with UPD as class skills AFAIK - the Human Paragon and Ardent Dilettante.
Khan the Destroyer 02-08-06, 03:10 AM	Check this out. Pun-Pun acquires the Deck of Many Things. Pun-Pun repeatedly casts Augury to determine whether drawing a card will be good or bad. Pun-Pun avoids drawing when the Augury tells him something bad will happen. But he can conjure another Deck and try again. He does this until he pulls the Fates card. Fates: This card enables a character to avoid an instantaneous occurence if so desired, for the fabric of reality is unraveled and respun. Note that it does not able something to happen. It can only stop something from happening or reverse a past occurence. The reversal is only for the character who drew the card, other party members may have to endure the situation. Pun-Pun: Hello Fates, I would like to stop the consequential demise of my person due to the tampering of my ancestral bloodline in the past. The Fates: No problem Pun-Pun. That's what we are here for. Pun-Pun: Thanks a bunch, I appreciate it.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-08-06, 04:13 AM	No problem, I undo the action where he drew the fate card. :P Or, if Pun-Pun did this at a time, which I cannot undo his action (say back in the past he did this via teleport through time), then I could easily do the same. Fates: I would like to undo the existance of pun-pun, he's annoying.
Kresalak 02-08-06, 09:21 AM	No problem, I undo the action where he drew the fate card. :P Or, if Pun-Pun did this at a time, which I cannot undo his action (say back in the past he did this via teleport through time), then I could easily do the same. Fates: I would like to undo the existance of pun-pun, he's annoying. The part Khan quoted, the part that says "The reversal is only for the character who drew the card, other party members may have to endure the situation." would prevent you from using fates to unexist someone, no? Unexist is my new favorite word.
lostone 02-08-06, 11:49 AM	If he's a demilich he is an undead, that's what I was basing that arguement onI think the "incorporeal undead" is inclusive together. I'm not sure what you were responding too since I haven't been following but I noticed you only bolded undead like it was seperate.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-08-06, 01:06 PM	Sorry, I was too zealous. I could not undo pun-pun unless I were pun-pun myself. (the reversal only applies to the one who picked the card). However, I could use the Pun-Pun tactic and say I wish to prevent ANY hindrances to my ability to use the psi-crown of time-regress that sits on my head currently. This would render me pretty much invulnerable in every way that counts.
bomaz 02-08-06, 01:13 PM	how did terminator get his hands on the deck?
Lokiyn 02-08-06, 01:23 PM	However, I could use the Pun-Pun tactic and say I wish to prevent ANY hindrances to my ability to use the psi-crown of time-regress that sits on my head currently. Which both of you seem to have forgotten that the card works once only. So unless you have a infinite deck of fate cards you can block one time regression, and the Terminator can block one attempt to stop one use of the psicrown.
Khan the Destroyer 02-08-06, 01:27 PM	Which both of you seem to have forgotten that the card works once only. So unless you have a infinite deck of fate cards you can block one time regression, and the Terminator can block one attempt to stop one use of the psicrown. I didn't forget. Pun-Pun can make as many Decks of Many Things as he wants. He can make enough to foil any attempt on his life, and then some.
Lokiyn 02-08-06, 02:14 PM	For pun pun thats fine, he has NI*T artifacts by virture of his divine ranks NI, And we still have yet to address What happens if pun declares an area his divine realm, Declares time altering effects don't work there, and then Chills with a martini watching the world about his realm rewind.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-08-06, 04:45 PM	how did terminator get his hands on the deck? :rofl: Not that it's a bad question... but if you read it out of context... To answer your question, I could have my ice-assassin deity make one for me. Now, to address more pressing matters... Lets see what pun-pun can wish for that would be relevant to the Terminator. 1. Wish that his ancestors not be harmed: This may ONLY be done if Pun-Pun exists in the Past, before Pun-Pun is born. This means that he must use Teleport-through-Time. If the DM thinks his Ancestors are fated to die by the hand of the Terminator at a certain time non of his actions will avail him. Here we run into the problem of the deterministic clause. Who will be fated to exist and who will not? Here we see DM Fiat leaking back. 2. Prevent a single future time-regression: This would be in violation of the Aleax immunity as it would prevent or hinder the Terminator in some way. The time regression targets the Terminator not Pun-Pun. 3. Prevent the Terminator from killing Pun-Pun: I don't kill pun-pun I kill Mr. and Mrs. Pun before they get a chance to make the double-backed beast, thus reducing the probability of pun-pun's existance to zero.
Kingrames 02-08-06, 06:17 PM	And then Pun-Pun reveals the ultimate and terrifying truth! He is the Terminator's father! *the DM spontaneously combusts*
Khan the Destroyer 02-08-06, 06:19 PM	The deck says that it can stop something from happening, by unraveling the fabrics of reality and putting them back together. Pun-Pun stops his destruction from happening. The Terminator still goes back in time and kills his ancestors, it just doesn't destroy Pun-Pun, or create a new timeline, or whatever it is supposed to do. The Fates stop the consequence of your actions from happening.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-08-06, 07:13 PM	*shrug* This is getting to the point in which there are rules whose interactions are unknown. Let me just say this: You can only stop the Terminator in the manner which you speak if you travel further back than the Terminator travels. Thus, you would have to use the Teleport through time spell to go back and use the fate card to prevent an attack against your ancestors. (The reversal of an occurance in the past only applies to the user of the card, not to his ancestors.) So we have a conflict of rules: what is the "real" timeline? Is the timeline where pun-pun does not go back in time and the Terminator does real? Or is it the other way around? How do you determine what is deterministic when you have three separate forms of time-line manipulation interacting? Where are the absolutes? The answer: If this were to occur I believe the time-line would be sundered to accomodate the two possible outcomes. Both are equally viable under the "determinism" theory, so there is no way to differentiate. Thus I think we would have a timeline in which pun-pun reigns and one in which he does not. Is this victory or defeat? It's neither, both sides win from their point of view. As for other methods of time-travel besides teleport through time and time regression, we have no solid rules for these. Thus we enter again the realm of speculation.
SoulGamit 02-08-06, 09:15 PM	Hm... you know, I realized... Alaex's ability only stop creatures from hindering him from destroying his mark, so couldn't pun-pun posses/control you as long as he was helping you destroy your mark?
Lokiyn 02-08-06, 10:34 PM	Hm... you know, I realized... Alaex's ability only stop creatures from hindering him from destroying his mark, so couldn't pun-pun posses/control you as long as he was helping you destroy your mark? I smell death urge ;) Lets see if a diplocheck can can make someone fanatical can a diplo check make someone suicidal?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-08-06, 10:49 PM	Quick Reality Check: Althought the aleax is visible to all, only its intended victim can harm it. Attacks made by other creatures are rebuffed, dealing damage and hindering the Aleax in no way. What part says that another creature could affect me? I would consider it to be hindering if I could not dictate my own actions. Wouldn't you? Actually that pretty much defines hindrance: the inability to take actions you desire. Diplochecks would fail... we're both considered PCs.
Lokiyn 02-08-06, 11:51 PM	A.) Spell Turrets planted during null time. B.) You still haven't adressed pun pun's ability to nullify temporal effects in a NI*100ft Sphere. You've simply decided to ignore the fact that only apparent time is regressed, and that in a divine realm rendered immune to time altering effects your regression would leave the entire realm untouched.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-09-06, 12:27 AM	First off, what is a spell turret? Never heard of it. I'm not as well read into the obscure aspects of D&D as you are. (reference would be appreciated greatly). Second, I've already addressed the problem of the far-realm. *If pun-pun emulates the far-realm any time spent there is not registered on the material plane timeline. He can spend millenia there for all I care, but the moment he returns from his plane it will be as though he never left. If he escapes to a plane like the far-realm then he really spends no time there with respect to the Terminator, thus he evades nothing. The only way he can truely escape the time regressions is to beat the Terminator or to leave the timeframe of Toril. If he brings the Terminator into his sphere he will be regressed, as they are now on the same timeline. Despite the flavor text of the Far-Realm it does state that a minute can pass there, thus a minute could be regressed.
Lokiyn 02-09-06, 12:33 AM	Spell turrets are from the Dmg 2, basically they fire off spells at a target ::Shrugs:: And i wan't talking about the far realms. You very very lightly touched on what i said earlier and in the previous post. Pun pun declares his sphere centered on toril his divine realm. Pun pun Decrees that time manipulating spells no longer function or affect his divine realm by altering the traits of his realm. Toril rests in a pocket that has a resturaunt built in it to watch the universe rewind outside the boundries.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-09-06, 12:49 AM	The radius of this control is a function of the deity’s rank and whether the realm is located on an Outer Plane or some other plane (including the Material Plane). Pun-Pun picks A single plane to be his realm and then he controls a sphere in that realm. Sure it's a big sphere, but it doesn't spill over into the other planes as nothing would indicate that it does. Say he picks Toril, the material plane in general terms. Anyone who enters there enters the funky time. Ok, but that's not the point. Outside the realm NO TIME PASSES for every minute spent in Pun-Pun's realm. If you use the far-realm traits to make the realm outside of the normal time frame then time spent in Pun-Pun's realm does not count against time spent in the normal multiverse. Do you dispute this? Also, would you mind PMing me the relevant rules for spell turrets? I cannot refute them without knowing what they are precisely. (I do not have the DMG2). My main concern with them is: How do they acquire their target, do they use spell-trigger effects, etc. Also, while we're on old arguments, what do you think of my way of avoiding mobile portals? (It basically involves exceeding the weight limit of the portal)
Lokiyn 02-09-06, 12:58 AM	wrong, wrong, wrong. If you read the posts above which mentioned nothing about the far realms you would understand. And i wan't talking about the far realms. Pun pun declares his sphere centered on toril his divine realm Pun pun Decrees that time manipulating spells no longer function or affect his divine realm by altering the traits of his realm. And we still have yet to address What happens if pun declares an area his divine realm, Declares time altering effects don't work there, and then Chills with a martini watching the world about his realm rewind. Basically spell turrets store 4 spells of the same level that target a creature within 120 ft. Then once per round launches off the spells in a preset order. And there is always this. Pun pun seeds the areas around the terminator with spell turrets filled with every offensive spell known to WotC publishers, making sure to keep away from that magical 10ft radius. Then pun pun wanders outside of your declared realm and/or stays inside and declares the his realm on the same location which following the higher divine ranks precedent overrides the existing realm upon which he declares no magic except that from traps may function through limited magic traits. So terminator to him suddenly realizes he is in the middle of a sphere of stone 120 feet in diameter with all his magic limited (Squelched) Taking one of these Diminuitive traps per 5 ft square he realizes that there are 7237 Small domed devices powering up and launching the same number of spells covering every energy types and level, and possibly metamagics. with a 5 ft hole in the top feeding an oozing mass of quintessence that begins to poor into the sphere.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-09-06, 02:30 AM	How do you declare that? You may only limit certain schools of magic. Second, I found no rule that says another deity may overtake and over-ride their godly realm. Precedence arguements sound like an RAI arguement. Finally, I was spouting off incorrect responses because I cannot read your mind. If you wish me to respond in a coherent manner make sure you explain everything your are doing step by step otherwise I'll start making assumptions (and they won't always be correct). I had been assuming your were using far-realm traits to render yourself immune to time manipulative magic. geez.
Khan the Destroyer 02-09-06, 03:18 AM	*shrug* This is getting to the point in which there are rules whose interactions are unknown. Let me just say this: You can only stop the Terminator in the manner which you speak if you travel further back than the Terminator travels. Thus, you would have to use the Teleport through time spell to go back and use the fate card to prevent an attack against your ancestors. (The reversal of an occurance in the past only applies to the user of the card, not to his ancestors.) TG, Pun-Pun is not reversing anything. He is stopping something from happening. The Fates card can either reverse something or stop something from happening. When the Terminator kills Pun-Pun's ancestors, Pun-Pun will cease to exist in the timeline. The Fates card will stop him from ceasing to exist. His ancestors still die, but Pun-Pun still lives. There is no reversal of any event. He is stopping his death from happening. What part says that another creature could affect me? I would consider it to be hindering if I could not dictate my own actions. Attacks cannot hinder the Aleax. They deal damage in no way, or hinder it in no way. It does not say that the Aleax cannot be hindered at all. Otherwise, you couldn't stop it with wall spells, or anything else. You could interpret anything to be a 'hindrance'. If that's the case, Pun-Pun's Singular Enemy ability allows him to avoid temporal effects, because that would hinder him. I think the description is pretty clear. The part about rebuffing, dealing no damage, and not hindering are referring to attacks made by other creatures. B.) You still haven't adressed pun pun's ability to nullify temporal effects in a NI*100ft Sphere. You've simply decided to ignore the fact that only apparent time is regressed, and that in a divine realm rendered immune to time altering effects your regression would leave the entire realm untouched. What are you suggesting here? That Pun-Pun sort of covers the whole material plane in his own divine realm to egg out the Terminator? So basically, the Terminator regresses time but doesn't affect the Material Plane?
lostone 02-09-06, 07:19 AM	You guys are reading The Fates in a completely different way from me. :D Fates: This card enables the character to avoid even an instantaneous occurrence if so desired, for the fabric of reality is unraveled and respun. Note that it does not enable something to happen. It can only stop something from happening or reverse a past occurrence. The reversal is only for the character who drew the card; other party members may have to endure the situation. The Terminator can't use this to avoid Pun-Pun from being born. Pun-Pun's birth does not affect The Terminator until Pun-Pun has met the Terminator, which is already too late to use the card because the Terminator is dead. Until then Pun-Pun has not directly affected the Terminator so there is nothing to avoid. But if you decide to go that route, Pun-Pun whips out his deck (really bad out of context) and avoids The Terminator from ever learning the Ice Assassin spell, thus negating him becoming an Aleax, and also having his Ice Assassin deity make him a Deck of Many Things and using it. However has anyone considered the ramifications of a Paradox that unmakes reality? You can't stop a god from ascending without causing a mighty big Paradox that is almost guaranteed to unmake reality. I wouldn't allow it in my game, but then time travel cause & effect theory always make my head spin if someone tries to fast talk me on it. :DThe answer: If this were to occur I believe the time-line would be sundered to accomodate the two possible outcomes. Both are equally viable under the "determinism" theory, so there is no way to differentiate. Thus I think we would have a timeline in which pun-pun reigns and one in which he does not. Is this victory or defeat? It's neither, both sides win from their point of view.That seems satisfactory to me, Pun-Pun still wins from his point of view. :D
Lokiyn 02-09-06, 07:29 AM	What are you suggesting here? That Pun-Pun sort of covers the whole material plane in his own divine realm to egg out the Terminator? So basically, the Terminator regresses time but doesn't affect the Material Plane? Simply put, yes Transparency at its most basic, Has anything that affects magic may also effect psionics and the reverse is true. Instead of declareing a specific school Pun Pun could declare Psycoportion effects non viable upon toril (the planet). Or through the funtions as god of the time domain, (a domain held by mystra because no one else wanted it, or rather it was deemed that the god of magic would be the best enforcer.{whats she going to do if you want it ;) ) Simply alerta mystra and have a dead pocket follow the terminator around.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-09-06, 02:56 PM	Ok, I'll list the salient problems that are being raised now with my best objections as of yet. Also, I have the beginnings of a new approach at the end of this post. Problem 1: By strict RAW Psionics does not have schools, they have disciplines. Thus to apply a restriction that only applies to schools of magic does not apply to psionics, unless those disciplines excplicitly call out a correlation between the schools. The only reason this build is still alive is because of the technicality that psychoportation does not have an equivalent school and thus cannot be limited under the planar trait: limited magic. Problem 2: Second, as for pun-pun using Mystra to hinder the Terminator we arrive at somewhat of a problem in convention. It has been assumed that Ao and all the deities allowed things to transpire as they have, and that the multiverse is generally normal. Therefore, bringing Mystra into this is like me saying I diplomacy Ao before pun-pun existed and told him to erase the Sarrukh from history. It may sound lame, but to keep this on somewhat of a realistic playing field I think that we should prohibit divine NPC intervention. Otherwise this will inevitably spiral down into a Lady of Pain or Ao versus pun-pun arguement. Problem 3: Fate Card tricks: I fully realize that you are using the "prevent something from happening" mechanic of the Fate Card, Khan. However, the reason I said you would need to be in the PAST to use it is because the "stop something from happening" implies to stop a future event. What the terminator does is in the past, so to stop the past from happening you must go into the past and make it your future. Does this make sense? If you have objections to this interpretation please raise them. Problem 4: Precedence arguements: I'm not sure where this is referenced from. In the rules of Godly Realm traits there is no mention that one deity may bully another deity out of his space. I'm not the most well-read expert though, so if there are rules for this please quote them. Problem 5: Aleax Immunity questions: As a matter of fact the aleax immunity states that no creature may hinder the Aleax IN NO WAY. Taking control of the Aleax is easily construed as a hindrance to whatever he is doing. Furthermore, whatever he is doing is not necessarily bound to be the destruction of his target... it might be to take an oil bath before meeting his target in combat. Furthermore, I believe I have immunity to mind-affecting effects, so things like death urge are out. New Approach: Here's an idea, and I know it has been iterated before, but bear with me for a second. Lets say that the Terminator learns of Pun-Pun and escapes to the Far-Realm or emulates it somehow. Pun-Pun is assumed to have the Aleax immunity, so this rules out a direct assault on most fronts. The Terminator constructs an Ice-Assassin of Pun-Pun on the Far-Realms. Pun-Pun cannot detect this with his portfolio senses as these things do not transpire within any time on Toril, they are faster than instantaneous with respect to Pun-Pun. Note that the ice-assassin created on the Far-Realm will have all the abilities of Pun-Pun and any extra time that this ice-assassin spends on the Far-Realm does not put him at a disadvantage with respect to Pun-Pun as far as abilities are concerned. The idea: I use this ice-assassin pun-pun to create me a divine realm somewhere within the Normal Multiverse. Furthermore, I have myself a very good guardian to protect me while I do my thing. Also, all spells I cast on myself affect the ice-assassin as though they were cast on him. This means the guardian ice-assassin will regress with me. Problems: getting to the far-realm or emulating it. This is a proto-type so to speak so there are probably a few holes in it.
bomaz 02-09-06, 03:50 PM	well either unexisting pun-pun is a future action and can be prevented since pun-pun will cease to exist in the future or it is a past occurance and can then be reversed. Either that or pun-pun when he ascended just stopped every single way of timetravel. Or I'm just confused. Also wouldn't unexisting pun-pun be to hinder him? so is he then immune?
Khan the Destroyer 02-09-06, 03:55 PM	Problem 2: Second, as for pun-pun using Mystra to hinder the Terminator we arrive at somewhat of a problem in convention. It has been assumed that Ao and all the deities allowed things to transpire as they have, and that the multiverse is generally normal. Therefore, bringing Mystra into this is like me saying I diplomacy Ao before pun-pun existed and told him to erase the Sarrukh from history. It may sound lame, but to keep this on somewhat of a realistic playing field I think that we should prohibit divine NPC intervention. Otherwise this will inevitably spiral down into a Lady of Pain or Ao versus pun-pun arguement. Pun-Pun does not need Mystra to do what Lokiyn suggests. Pun-Pun has the Time portfolio/domain. Someone quoted in a previous thread that no two gods in Faerun may have the same portfolio. I read up on FR deities and this isn't true. No two gods of the same pantheon may have the same portfolios. Pun-Pun doesn't belong to any pantheon. Pun-Pun has whatever portfolios he wants to assume. Problem 3: Fate Card tricks: I fully realize that you are using the "prevent something from happening" mechanic of the Fate Card, Khan. However, the reason I said you would need to be in the PAST to use it is because the "stop something from happening" implies to stop a future event. What the terminator does is in the past, so to stop the past from happening you must go into the past and make it your future. Does this make sense? If you have objections to this interpretation please raise them. Pun-Pun is not stopping what the Terminator does. He is stopping what happens after the Terminator does it. The Terminator does not kill Pun-Pun. He kills Pun-Pun's ancestors. Whatever that act does to affect Pun-Pun in the present is what Pun-Pun is stopping. Problem 5: Aleax Immunity questions: As a matter of fact the aleax immunity states that no creature may hinder the Aleax IN NO WAY. No, it doesn't. Attacks made by other creatures are rebuffed, dealing no damage and hindering the aleax in no way. The subject of the sentence is 'Attacks made by other creatures'. Only attacks made by other creatures hinder the aleax in no way. The ability *does not* say that 'no creature may hinder the aleax in any way'. New Approach: Here's an idea, and I know it has been iterated before, but bear with me for a second. Lets say that the Terminator learns of Pun-Pun and escapes to the Far-Realm or emulates it somehow. Pun-Pun is assumed to have the Aleax immunity, so this rules out a direct assault on most fronts. The Terminator constructs an Ice-Assassin of Pun-Pun on the Far-Realms. Pun-Pun cannot detect this with his portfolio senses as these things do not transpire within any time on Toril, they are faster than instantaneous with respect to Pun-Pun. Pun-Pun already knows that the Terminator is attempting to kill him. If he escapes to the Far Realm, which was Pun-Pun's original plan, why wouldn't Pun-Pun follow him to stop/kill/spy on him? Note that the ice-assassin created on the Far-Realm will have all the abilities of Pun-Pun and any extra time that this ice-assassin spends on the Far-Realm does not put him at a disadvantage with respect to Pun-Pun as far as abilities are concerned. Not true. The Ice Assassin spell contains a clause specifically stating that the Ice Assassin cannot become stronger. The idea: I use this ice-assassin pun-pun to create me a divine realm somewhere within the Normal Multiverse. Furthermore, I have myself a very good guardian to protect me while I do my thing. Also, all spells I cast on myself affect the ice-assassin as though they were cast on him. This means the guardian ice-assassin will regress with me. I'm not sure what the purpose of having a Pun-Pun duplicate is, but you will be using Pun-Pun to thwart Pun-Pun.
Lokiyn 02-09-06, 04:23 PM	Of course encasing the terminator in this godly relm and flipping the time trait to the inverse of the the far realm is always a fun option. since we seem to be operating off of flavor text pun pun really has no limits on what he can and can't do. Which of course allows him to fold up reality and wear it like a paper hat, and of course getting him to say nup-nup isn't going to get rid of him.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-09-06, 07:20 PM	Pun-Pun does not need Mystra to do what Lokiyn suggests. Pun-Pun has the Time portfolio/domain. Someone quoted in a previous thread that no two gods in Faerun may have the same portfolio. I read up on FR deities and this isn't true. No two gods of the same pantheon may have the same portfolios. Pun-Pun doesn't belong to any pantheon. Pun-Pun has whatever portfolios he wants to assume. Ok. I'm not an expert in this area. I will look into it later. Pun-Pun is not stopping what the Terminator does. He is stopping what happens after the Terminator does it. The Terminator does not kill Pun-Pun. He kills Pun-Pun's ancestors. Whatever that act does to affect Pun-Pun in the present is what Pun-Pun is stopping. He is still preventing something that would happen in the past, not the future. No matter how you word it, Pun-Pun will always be trying to prevent something that happens in the past, unless he travels back into the past to make the past his future. No, it doesn't. Attacks made by other creatures are rebuffed, dealing no damage and hindering the aleax in no way. The subject of the sentence is 'Attacks made by other creatures'. Only attacks made by other creatures hinder the aleax in no way. The ability *does not* say that 'no creature may hinder the aleax in any way'. No offense, but are you mad? The phrase "no creature's attack may hinder the aleax in any way" and "other creature's attacks hinder the aleax in no way" are synoymous, last I spoke english. Pun-Pun already knows that the Terminator is attempting to kill him. If he escapes to the Far Realm, which was Pun-Pun's original plan, why wouldn't Pun-Pun follow him to stop/kill/spy on him? Yeah, I knew that was a problem, which is why I said the plan still had a few holes. Not true. The Ice Assassin spell contains a clause specifically stating that the Ice Assassin cannot become stronger. Sort of correct, but not really. It says the ice-assassin may not advance. This means he cannot gain levels via experience. However, that doesn't stop him from using and abusing manipulate form to give himself more feats, hit-dice, ability scores, divine ranks, etc, etc, etc. I'm not sure what the purpose of having a Pun-Pun duplicate is, but you will be using Pun-Pun to thwart Pun-Pun. That's correct. The ~Pun-Pun (hereafter I will use the notation ~NAME to mean an ice-assassin of a creature bearing the name NAME) serves as my guardian. This means he will be there to anticipate Pun-Pun's counter actions with actions of his own. This idea is in its preliminary form as of yet. I was just throwing it out there for y'all to criticize... or perhaps assist in making it better.
Khan the Destroyer 02-09-06, 07:50 PM	Ok. I'm not an expert in this area. I will look into it later. It is on page 233 of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting sourcebook. The limitation is only for deities of the same pantheon. He is still preventing something that would happen in the past, not the future. No matter how you word it, Pun-Pun will always be trying to prevent something that happens in the past, unless he travels back into the past to make the past his future. Wouldn't the destruction of his ancestors affect him in the present? If not, what is the whole point of doing it? If you only change the past, and have no affect on the future, then we needn't worry about anything. Pun-Pun will still be around. But if you do have an affect on the present/future, the Fates card will stop it. No offense, but are you mad? The phrase "no creature's attack may hinder the aleax in any way" and "other creature's attacks hinder the aleax in no way" are synoymous, last I spoke english. No offense taken, I've gotten used to your abrasive attitude. But here is what you said: the aleax immunity states that no creature may hinder the Aleax IN NO WAY. Notice the lack of the word 'attack'. Yes, it appears now in your new and improved sentence. But I was replying to your previous claim. My point was that no attack made by another creature can hinder it. As opposed to what you originally said, which was no creature can hinder it. And for the record, I am quite sane. Sort of correct, but not really. It says the ice-assassin may not advance. This means he cannot gain levels via experience. However, that doesn't stop him from using and abusing manipulate form to give himself more feats, hit-dice, ability scores, divine ranks, etc, etc, etc. 'An ice assassin has no ability to become more powerful; it cannot increase its level or abilities.' Nothing about advancement or experience points. It just simply cannot make itself stronger. That's correct. The ~Pun-Pun (hereafter I will use the notation ~NAME to mean an ice-assassin of a creature bearing the name NAME) serves as my guardian. This means he will be there to anticipate Pun-Pun's counter actions with actions of his own. This idea is in its preliminary form as of yet. I was just throwing it out there for y'all to criticize... or perhaps assist in making it better. Right. So if Pun-Pun goes after the Terminator, he instead has to fight Pun-Pun. So this is Pun-Pun vs. Pun-Pun. Especially moreso since you will most likely use the Ice Assassin Pun-Pun to enable whatever your Terminator needs. This tactic is obviously less inventive than your other ones.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-09-06, 10:57 PM	I'm sorry I don't mean to be abraisive. And yes, my creativity in this manner is waning. I admit the ~pun-pun trick is cheap, but it fits within what I have already done: abuse ice-assassin, mind-switch, and time regression. It's clear that pun-pun is a difficult combatant. I'm running out of options here. Also, sorry that I miss quoted Ice-Assassin. I does indeed say that its abilities and level cannot increase. However I do not think that will matter much if all goes as planned.** Here's the proto-type plan: 0. Pun-Pun ascends 1. Leave the timestream, be it by emulating the Far-Realm somehow or just simply leaving to the far-realm. * 2. Conjure an Ice-Assassin of Pun-Pun 3. Re-enter the normal time frame. * 4. Begin regressing as soon as I re-enter under protection of ~pun-pun. * These are the weak points of the plan. **If 3 and 4 have no interval of time between them then ~Pun-Pun only becomes more powerful with respect to Pun-Pun as time goes backwards. (~Pun-Pun remains static and Pun-Pun regresses.) At least that's the current theory in my head. My head is a little messed up right now though... Also, to answer you questions about the fate card. I should clarify this: the Terminator REDEFINES the present to the past. So the present and future as pun-pun sees it when he requests a favor of the fates is not the future that is to be. That future lies on the old timeline.
Lokiyn 02-10-06, 02:17 AM	And for the record, I am quite sane.. for the record, i make no such claim ;). Anywhoo look at it like this Tb-----pb-------pa The terminator goes back in time after event pa Tb-----pb+(t)-------pa When The terminator acts in the past it creates a wave of change that moves through thte timelines Tb-----(t)--)------Pa Tb-----(t)---)-----Pa Tb-----(t)----)----Pa Until the wave of change reaches pun pun in the present. In the present pun puns fate card allows him to dodge the wave of change. Reality is rewritten, pun pun was never born, instead pun pun springs forth from an instant in reality corresponging to the point in the old time when he used the fate card. Remember that time regression only affects Apparent Time You can regress apparent time 1 round into the past. Which means that while your moving backwards you are not erasing what has already happend yet (otherwise you would technically erase the action where you went back in time) Essentially you are replacing a past you.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-10-06, 02:58 AM	It's a nice theory, but the fact that the text goes on to explain that you still lose XP for using the power (instead of replacing the fact that you used the power and thus never spending the XP for it...) Here's that part of the text: During the round that you live through a second time, you can act on knowledge you previously gained by already living through the immediate future. In all likelihood, you’ll probably not choose to manifest time regression during your second pass through the time stream, instead taking completely new actions, but you pay the XP cost all the same. You say, however: Which means that while your moving backwards you are not erasing what has already happend yet (otherwise you would technically erase the action where you went back in time) Do you see the contradiction? I *DO* erase the part where I regressed, however the exception is made that I pay the XP cost regardless. I'm not sure what's the difference between apparent and real time, however. Why the emphasis?
Kurama Youko 02-15-06, 12:32 AM	i dont know if this has been mentioned or not, but you cant use Supernatural Spell on Ice Assassin because Supernatural Spell states that the spell in question has to have a casting time of 1 standard action, and Ice Assassin has a casting time of 8 hours.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-15-06, 12:52 AM	WOW. Good catch. Hmm... well there is a couple of techniques that one could use: -spell-like ability of the archmage, mix with thought bottle to ameliorate the XP cost. (This eliminate the components) -use a supernatural wish to create a scroll of ice-assassin with the proper components built in. Basically, the idea is still solid, but the technique will need some tweaking.
Lokiyn 02-20-06, 07:20 PM	oh snap While working on some material (trying to convert all the third eye prc's up to 3.5, slow going in between work and school) i found this quote Psionics-Magic Transparency For the purposes of power-to-spell interaction with these feats, Enchantment, Illusion and Necromancy are treated the same as the Metacreativity, Clairsentience, and Telepathy disciplines. Evocation and Transmutation are treated the same as the Psychometabolism, Psychoportation, or Psychokinesis disciplines. Now while this quote overrides it Psychoportation Psychoportation powers move the manifester, an object, or another creature through space and time. For the purpose of psionics-magic transparency, psychoportation powers do not have an equivalent school. Apparently at one point it was considered otherwise. Ah well, food for thought on the little bits and pieces that have been lost or altered along the time. Oh and as a side note, if pun pun gains the ability to create a temporal rift and step back a round as a free action how does that affect the terminator, it appears that he could create a quirky loop of some sort Now the wording of time regression shows that it undoes everything except exp expentiture, and the knowledge of what was done. The ability Alter Past(su) MM3 183 on the other hand allows it to physically replay the last turn by opening a rift in time and physcally replacing it's past self. The thing about alter past is that it appears to opperate off of objective time rather than apparent time, so that the last turn pun pun took (being the turn the terminator attempted to erase he can erase the effects of the terminators reversal by stepping back through the objective time stream.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-20-06, 11:52 PM	The relevant rules for the interaction of schools of magic and disciplines of psionics are clearly stated in the second quote you posted. The fact that this may not be what they intended is irrelevant, as I doubt they intended the existance of Pun-Pun. Besides, by RAW the first quote applies only to those feats. I'm not sure there is any distinction in the rules between "apparent" and "objective" time. This is how I see the interaction with alter past and time regression: 1. Pun-Pun uses a readied action vs. the terminator's regression to start the round over. 2. The round starts over, the terminator tries again, but is stopped by Pun-Pun's readied action against his regression. Back to #1. OR 1. Terminator regresses time to 1 round previous, all actions in prior round are undone. 2. Pun-Pun uses alter past to start the round over, however, this is too late, as it's turn is THIS round, which is one round in the past. Net effect: if Pun-Pun uses technique #1 the world is frozen in a continually replaying loop. If Pun-Pun allows the regression to go first he gets nothing from th ability. Conclusion: unless pun-pun can get the ability to be "at-will" an unlimited number of times per day, the Terminator will win. As the ability is worded in the RAW, it may only be used once per round and only 3 times per day. Anticipation: Pun-Pun will train millions of Vasuthants (or millions of clones) with a readied action against the terminator. Thereby ensuring that at least one readied action per round will trigger, so that the terminator will never accomplish his goal. Solution to the Anticipation: This violates the idea that Pun-Pun is "neutral" with respect to the Multi-verse. Putting the multiverse into a replay of the same round for eternity does not seem normal or neutral to me.
bomaz 02-21-06, 12:33 AM	if the universe is in replaymode can't pun-pun just sunder the psicrown?
Kresalak 02-21-06, 12:52 AM	I don't completely remember what the currnet method of invulnerability for the Terminator is, so I'm not sure. However, if he is capable of sundering the Psicrown, he can enter an infinite loop action and do so. So Pun-Pun turns back time once. Then he enters an infinite loop action, sunders the Psicrown, and is done. If the Psicrown cannot be sundered, disregard this entire post.
Lokiyn 02-21-06, 12:59 AM	The relevant rules for the interaction of schools of magic and disciplines of psionics are clearly stated in the second quote you posted. The fact that this may not be what they intended is irrelevant, as I doubt they intended the existance of Pun-Pun. Besides, by RAW the first quote applies only to those feats. true which is why i simply stated it as "food for thought" I'm not sure there is any distinction in the rules between "apparent" and "objective" time. There is, its in the language itself Lets look at a time stream |-1-|-2-|-3-|-4-|-5-|-6-|-7-> and so on. In this case 7 rounds has gone by, now suppose that we rewind apparent time to change the results of round 7 |-1-|-2-|-3-|-4-|-5-|-6-|-7-|-6-|-7-> Objectively 9 rounds have gone by, but to the subjective observer with apparent time only 7 rounds have gone by. Now alter past creates a rift to manipulate the objective past |-1-|-2-|-3-|-4-|-5-|-6-|-7-V ( V represents the Rift) |-1-|-2-|-3-|-4-|-5-V-6-|-7-> In this case both apparent and objective time sync up to result in 7 rounds going by. However you may hold to the view that objective and apparent time are the same ::shrugs:: |-1-|-2-|-3-|-4-|-5-|-6-|-7-> Now in the result of technique #1 pun-pun has infinite time in an infinite loop to track down the terminator. Technique #2 hinges on the idea that apparent and objective time are the same. ::shrugs:: ah well, thats the way it goes.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-21-06, 02:08 AM	Well there you have it, the results are inconclusive. I could say that time regression does the following and it would still produce the same result: Normal Time: |-1-|-2-|-3-|-4-|-5-|-6-|-7-> Regressed Time: |-1-|-2-|-3-|-4-|-5-|-6'-|-7'-> In this case the 7th round was the start of the regression, and went back to the beginning of the 6th round. The results of round 6 and 7 may or may not be changed so they are denoted as 6' and 7' respectively. Subsequent rounds are "primed" as the whole future may change. The alter past ability is like a more limited form of regression, and by the logic above, would behave like this: Normal Time: |-1-|-2-|-3-|-4-|-5-|-6-|-7-> Altered Time: |-1-|-2-|-3-|-4-|-5-|-6-|-7'-> In this case the 7th round was replayed from the beginning, granting new possibilities. Thus the 7th round is changed to 7'. Subsequent rounds are also changed to "primed" rounds. The above theory supports my interpretation that certain futures are erased and replaced with their respective "primed" futures. What happens to the old futures? I don't know, but from the perspective of the Terminator they have vanished. What's funny is the observer looking down the line, instead of at the whole line. Such an observer might be pun-pun, who sees into the future and into the past, but is inescapably a part of that future and past. Assuming he sees the universe as a pre-determined set of actions, he would see either the "primed" future or the original future, but not both. If he sees the future as an infinite array of possibilities, then he will see a shift in all the future threads after the regression has occurred. Either way he sees it, he will not see his existance in that future, if the terminator is successful. Now for a question of my own, why do you try to find methods that would give Pun-Pun time to track the Terminator down? In the Terminator's current state he will automatically sense the location of the threat with his Portfolio sense and instantly know, millenia ahead of time that here lies his challenger. The new objective for the terminator, as you surely have picked up, is that no amount of time to prepare will avail Pun-Pun. Of course getting to that point is the real trouble for me. I will attempt to give the current form of the Terminator as I see him now, which is probably not a completely immune build as of yet. Notable Immunities: 1. Aleax Immunity: No attack from a creature may hinder or harm the Terminator in any way. 2. Planar traits: All magical schools are limited on the plane, meaning that no school of magic may function. This is not the same as a dead magic field. Psychoportive effects (which have no equivalent school) and other un-schooled magical effects may still function. Yes, supernatural effects are magical. 3. Incorporeal Traits: Immune to any non-magical damage source. Currently seeking the following abilities: *Incorporeal Traits from a class ability without resorting to Psion Uncarnate (To protect against the Annulus) *Weapon Damage Immunity *Creature ability stacking *Magic Immunity (the infinite SR variety)
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-21-06, 02:35 AM	Alright, so here's a method to obtain cheesy creature stacking and really any ability that I desire, without the use of Manipulate Form. I use, of course, the normal cheese: 1. Conjure an ice-assassin deity who has the salient divine ability true shapechange. 2. Mind-switch with this ~deity. (This process is different than usual) *Deities are immune to polymorph, mind-affecting blah, blah, so normal cheese won't work. However, we have one advantage over the average mind-switch situation: the target creature is our ice-assassin. -Give deity dorje of true mind-switch. We wished for one, it's cool. -Deity uses always maximized roll and gets the 20 needed to use the dorje. -Deity switches minds with ME. This is legal because of the following enabling text: "A deity is immune to polymorphing, petrification, or any other attack that alters its form. Any shape-altering powers the deity might have work normally on itself." So the deity can change his own body, if he does it himself. What is gained: A bunch of nice (ex) abilities, but the most promenant is this: True Shapechange This is an extraordinary ability. and Shift Form This is an extraordinary ability. Why is this good? Because of this: The deity retains its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, level and class, hit points (despite any change in its Constitution score), alignment, base attack bonus, and base saves. (New Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores may affect final attack and save bonuses.) The deity retains its outsider type, extraordinary abilities, spells, and spell-like abilities, but not its supernatural abilities. This ability works like the Shift Form salient divine ability, except as noted below: The deity can take any form, living or unliving, corporal or incorporeal. The deity gains the supernatural abilities of the assumed form. So that's dandy. If I do this BEFORE I switch with an Aleax, all the above abilities will transfer (as the Aleax of me has all my abilities). That means that I can slap on whatever qualities I'm just dying to have in addition to the ones I already have. Here's the best part: True Shapechange keeps on stacking with itself! The wording of shift form is such that I do not lose my (ex) abilities, but it makes no mention of the fact that they are referring to the (ex) abilities of my "true" form or the last form I occupied. Since the previous form granted me its extraordinary abilities and I retain my extraordinary abilties, I start stacking up my abilities. True, I do lose my supernatural abilties, but I at least retain the supernatural abilties of my last form (from true shapechange). Hmmm, so this gives me pretty much all I could ever ask for, without using manipulate form. That said: anyone know of any really spiffy monster immunities I can start tacking on this guy?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-21-06, 12:25 PM	Hmmm.... in retrospect I may have been smoking some whacky weed last night... or earlier this morning. I gain the (ex) special attacks and qualities of the form. According to true shapechange I gain the (ex) abilties of the form. According to shapechange (the spell) I would gain the "(ex) abilties (both attacks and qualities)". Looking at a gazillion other references I see that the abilities of a creature are always broken into special attacks and qualities. For example Many creatures have unusual abilities. A monster entry breaks these abilities into special attacks and special qualities. The latter category includes defenses, vulnerabilities, and other special abilities that are not modes of attack. A special ability is either extraordinary (Ex), spell-like (Sp), or supernatural (Su). Additional information (when needed) is provided in the creature’s descriptive text. So it would seem that a SDA falls under the above category. Now, I'm not sure if I can equate extraordinary ABILITIES to (SPECIAL ATTACKS + QUALITIES). The two seem to mean the same thing. Certainly the shapechange spell would support that notion Special Abilities A special ability is either extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural in nature. Ok, that's for sure. At least true shapechange doesn't fall under natural abilties (which have no (ex),(sp), or (su) descriptors. I think the best support I have is the "how to read a monster entry" and the shapechange spell. If Trueshapechange isn't an attack, it's a quality. The word "abilties" is a blanket word for attacks and qualities.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-21-06, 01:00 PM	Final musing on that note, before I go off in search of a way to abuse this new form of cheezery. I could have the god shapechange into all the creatues I like and then we would switch, thus giving me all the qualities I like and avoiding legal questions of whether (ex) abilities = (ex) special attacks + (ex) qualities.' I'm thinking ethereal doppleganger sounds crunchy right now... mmm
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-21-06, 07:12 PM	I'm liking these immunities right now: Fiend Folio (pg 199): Invulnerability (Ex): "A Zodar is immune to all attacks, except from those of bludgeoning weapons. And the enhancement bonus (if any) is disregarded when determining the result of the attack." Monster Manual III (pg 112): Blunt Weapon Immunity (Ex): "An ocean giant takes no damage from bludgeoning weapons." This renders the Aleax Immunity almost completely redundant, except that the Aleax immunity contains that nice little clause ("[creatures' attacks] can harm or hinder the Aleax no way.") So, just to keep the "cannot hinder" perfectly clear, I'll keep the Aleax immunity, otherwise I could probably throw out the Aleax stuff. Basically, I'm now immune to everything except the following: 1. The butterfly-net mobile gate technique (which I think is solved if I have over 800 lbs of equipment on my person). 2. Being surrounded by quintessence.* *Currently, I plan to make my plane an empty void with a non-subjective gravity field. If I am incorporeal (and somehow able to carry 800lbs of stuff) then no structure may be build about me, without it falling through me. Thus no amount of quintessence could contain me (as it would simply fall through me). The trouble with this plan two-fold: -The traits of the godly realm (the limited magic that is) would only extend so far. So pun-pun could create his realm about my realm and then transform the surroundings into land instead of space. Then he could fill his entire realm with quintessence (which would include my realm). -I'm still not sure how to get the incorporeal subtype w/o resorting to psion uncarnate.** **If I could justify completely the acquisition of the True Shapechange SDA then I could assume an incorporeal form by RAW. However, I'm not sure if an "extraordinary ability" necessarily falls under the categories of (ex) quality or (ex) special attack. There is strong evidence that would point to this association, but it's not as explicit as I would like.
bomaz 02-21-06, 11:54 PM	is it possible for pun-pun to sunder (or similar) your psicrown?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-22-06, 02:13 AM	Not if I am immune to every attack, and if no attack by a creature can hinder me in any way...
bomaz 02-22-06, 06:46 AM	but an attack on your psicrown is not an attack on you, also to erase pun-pun in the past is to hamper him in the present, so he is immune?
juggernaughteagle 02-22-06, 03:54 PM	never mind.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-22-06, 04:47 PM	1. blanket every plane in an anti-magic field after ascension 2. post one of his clones to watch the planes. with an NI divine rank, he can see NI miles, and with NI intelligence and infinite knowledge checks, he could stop your plan before you stop it. 3. take everyone and put them on a dead magic demiplane with no astral connection. *sigh* these tactics have been covered. 1. This is possible given infinite time, however it's not exactly in keeping with the notion that Pun-Pun is a "neutral" being. Recall that if Ao feels something is amiss with the cosmic order (such as an ultra paranoid uber deity running around destroying functional magic on every single plane) then he can simply strip pun-pun of his divine ranks and kill him outright. Ao cannot be killed by any concerted effort of any collection of deities, so his position is absolute. One of the basic assumptions of this thread, and of the pun-pun thread, is that pun-pun (once ascended) behaves in a neutral manner. What you describe is a blantant attack on all life and unlife in the multiverse. 2. How is he going to stop me exactly? He doesn't need clones watching over me, he simply knows what I am doing and where I will be doing it millenia in advance. The purpose of the immunity build (which isn't quite perfect as of yet) is to render this prescience ineffective. 3. This is a bit difficult, as forcing creatures (escpecially ones like the terminator) into a different plane is a bit tricky. The only way this can be done is to use mobile portals and "net" them to the plane. I'm still working on a way to become immune to this.
juggernaughteagle 02-23-06, 09:28 AM	what would screwing with the time trait do? or if pun-pun was also on a static plane, or born on a timless plane. Maybe pun-pun could find a creature older than the terminator, mind control it, buff it to heck, clone it, send the clones back in time and have it guard over everything nesscary for his trick. Of course then it turns into a time war. Ugggh my brain hurts.
Kresalak 02-23-06, 11:51 AM	Actually, Pun-Pun has to be born on Toril, since Manipulate Form only works on Scaled Ones native to Toril.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-25-06, 02:11 PM	Opponent: You can’t move through a square occupied by an opponent, unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without penalty. (Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each square you move through counts as 2 squares.) Any other techique to occupy the same square as me would either be an attack (such as a bull-rush or the like) or would need to be done by a tiny or smaller creature. Since I am immune to all the attacks of other creatures, and cannot fit through a tiny portal, the whole moving portal trick does not work. Moving portals cannot be propelled by themselves by any form of magic, so there must always be a creature pushing or pulling it (which makes it a part of its equipment -- and therefore it falls under the above rule).
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-25-06, 02:16 PM	what would screwing with the time trait do? or if pun-pun was also on a static plane, or born on a timless plane. Maybe pun-pun could find a creature older than the terminator, mind control it, buff it to heck, clone it, send the clones back in time and have it guard over everything nesscary for his trick. Of course then it turns into a time war. Ugggh my brain hurts. Also not a good idea, if the cloned time warriors use time regression to move back in time then they will lose their buffs and destroy pun-pun in the process by erasing the future (as the terminator does). If they use the teleport through time spell killing someone like the terminator may fall under the "deterministic" clause. The deterministic clause basically means that the terminator or pun-pun is inevitable, so you cannot destroy the possibility of either. As for being on a static plane or timeless plane (with the exception of the far-realm) nothing will protect pun-pun from regression. If pun-pun escapes to the far-realm or a place with flowing time similar to the far-realm then he will effectively spend no time there with respect to the material plane and thus he would escape nothing.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-04-06, 04:07 AM	Alright, this thread has become kind of incoherent, so I've decided to make this summary and add in some new abilities for the Terminator. Before I begin, I must re-iterate that all actions preformed in Section 1 are done "pre-Pun-Pun." Section 1 The new face of the Terminator: The terminator uses the following build: Race: Human Build: Rogue Skill Focus (use psionic device), (Able Learner) Cleric (Magic, Protection) [Serves ideal of Lawful Order] Wizard: Spell Focus (Necromancy), scribe scroll Wizard Wizard Wizard: Craft Wonderous Item Dweomer Keeper (advance Wizard) Dweomer Keeper Dweomer Keeper: Mother Cyst Dweomer Keeper Exemplar: Skill mastery (Use Psionic Device, Use magic device, ...) Dweomer Keeper: Maximize Spell Dweomer Keeper Dweomer Keeper Dweomer Keeper: Split Ray Dweomer Keeper Dweomer Keeper Fate Spinner: Leadership Fate Spinner: Fate Spinner: Notable Abilities Full ranks in UPD, UMD, able to take 10 on both skills, and skill focus in both skills.. Bottom-line: he can use either skill to their full effect. Mostly just to use scrolls and psi-crowns. Supernatural spell: Uses his ability to cast wish up to 4/day (he can only cast 2 9th level spells a day though). This allows the Terminator to dispense with XP costs and wish for his extravagent items... like scrolls of Ice-Assassin that include the material components of a chosen deity. Gaining Immunities This will be the most "CO-fu" part of the build. Hold on, dangerously cheesy stuff lies ahead. So far as I know, it's all legal... Sequence One: Getting a few gods on my side Std Action: Wish for a scroll of Ice-Assassin with the components of a deity. Std Action: UMD the scroll (or just use it... I have enoug levels). I now have whatever deity I want as an ice-assassin sitting in front of me. This deity must have 17 Divine Ranks or higher and must have the SDA true shapechange. Henceforth to be known as god_1. Repeat 1 & 2: Conjure another ice-assassin god (preferably Bahamut*). This deity will be called god_2 *This deity is listed to have the ability to create an Aleax. If Bahamut does not exist in Faerun, I could easily travel to the proper campaign setting using shadow-walk. Sequence Two: Gaining Abilities god_1 cannot increase his own abilities, unfortunately, because he is an ice-assassin. To avoid issues with the "RAW" of increasing abilities I will create a temporary god from god_1. This new god shall be called ~god_1. ~god_1 is a proxy of god_1. Using the very same trick that Pun-Pun uses (investing squirrels) we create a temporary god. To retain complete control of this god, however, we first implant a necrotic cyst and then a necrotic tumor into him (assuming he fails his save). At any time god_1 may recall the ranks he invested in ~god_1 as a std action. (he invests only 16 ranks into ~god_1.) ~god_1 is commanded to true-shapechange into the following list of creatures. Each time he does so he accrumulates their extraordinary abilities [1]. *Zodak [Fiend Folio]: Immune to all attacks except those from bludgeoning weapons, the enhancement bonus from such an attack is negated. *Ocean Giant [MMII]: Immune to all attacks from bludgeoning weapons. *Umbral Blot: Disintegrating Touch, Vortex abilities *Death Slaad: Immunity to Sonic *Red Dragon: Immunity to Fire *Black Dragon: Immunity to Acid *White Dragon: Immunity to Cold *Force Dragon: Immunity to Force effects *Radiant Dragon: Immunity to Light effects *Shadow Dragon: Immunity to Energy drain *Blue Dragon: Immunity to Electricity *Prismatic Dragon: Immunity to Light, blindness, and prismatic effects *The tarrasque: a whole host of yummy immunities (most notable is carapace) *Marrulurk Abomination: (This needs to be checked) I believe the marrulurk abomination has an extraordinary trait which grants immortality. The terminator Creates a Dorje of True Mind-Switch A void disciple (my cohort) then uses moment of clarity to grant ~god_1 ranks in UPD. ~god_1 uses always maximized roll + his new ranks to use the dorje to mind-switch with the Terminator [2]. Terminator gains the above set of (ex) special attacks and qualities as per mind-switch. Sequence Three: Aleax god_2 is commanded to create an Aleax of me. ~god_1 protects me from the Aleax of myself by putting up an area divine shield around me an him. I create an ice-assassin of the Aleax of me, by using supernatural wish for another scroll of ice-assassin. Since I have total control over this new ice-assassin Aleax, I command him to make himself willing to a mind-switch. I bust out the dorje of mind-switch that I made in sequence 2 and switch with him. I destroy the ice-assassin of the Aleax of me and recoup my level loss with a dorje of psychic chirurgery. Note how the former immunity list does not include immunity to death effects. I now use a death effect to slay my real Aleax. In the event that I should fail, ~god_1 uses a dorje of time regression that I made for him (assume that the cohort grants hime ability to make a DC 20 UPD check) to undo my failure. Failure is unlikely if I use a split finger of death with the DC spinned up by 3. ~god_1 uses true shapechange to shapechange into the Terminator, gaining the abilities of the Aleax (targeted at me). True Shapechange allows one to assume the form of ANY creature, so I don't think shapechanging into unique creatures is out of the question. (Shapechange the spell explicitly disallows this, but this is a completely different ability entirely). Sequence Four: Planar Traits and Miscellaneous Abilities ~god_1 creates his divine realm on the plane of earth. ~god_1 alters the plane to have the following traits: limited magic all schools and subschools, he changes the gravity to heavy and specifies some random direction (not subject to change), the plane is constantly filled with a dense bog. The Terminator finally creates his glorious psi-crown of Time Regression with a supernatural wish. This psi-crown is capable of regressing an arbitrary number of rounds... lets say 1 millenium worth of rounds. ~god_1 transforms into a living vault, then an abomination, and then back into the tarrasque. (To gain total spell-immunity and abomination traits.) The terminator finally creates an ice-assassin of ~god_1. This ice-assassin now has all the abilities of the Terminator (aleax immunity and the above list + living vault immunity and abomination traits.) The new ice-assassin is known as god_3. The terminator polymorphs into a black dragon thereby losing all his (ex) qualities. god_3 swallows the Terminator whole (Tarrasque ability) [This is possible because the Terminator is no longer invulnerable to all attacks]. The Terminator now dismisses the polymorph. Finally, the Terminator (who is now inside the stomach of his ice-assassin deity, but still very capable of preforming any action despite being surrounded by crushing tissue and acid.) commands his ice-assassin deity to enter his divine realm. god_2 is ordered to slay himself. god_1 recalls the ranks he invested in ~god_1 and then slays ~god_1. god_1 kills himself. A Final Picture: So we now have a the Terminator inside an ice-assassin deity (god_3) who is utterly immune to everything (except perhaps attacks that the Terminator could muster... due to the fact that the ice-assassin's aleax immunity allows him only to be harmed or hindered by the Terminator). This tarrasque-thing deity is a whirling vortex of doom as all objects which come in contact with him are disintegrated (pending a failed save). No supernatural or extraordinary ability can affect the deity, and the deity is not affected by any form of anti-magic except dead-magic (deity quality). Inside lies the terminator, who is in utter control of his ice-assassin deity. The terminator receives information from the world abroad by asking the deity (who converses with anyone who crosses his domain). Section 2 Assumptions: Pun-Pun started his existance after all the events which occurred in section 1. This has been an underlying assumption since the conception of the Terminator. No, it probably is not fair to Pun-Pun, but I see this as a necessary assumption for any build which does not attempt to pre-empt pun-pun's infinite abilities with another infinite build. Pun-Pun behaves neutrally. This means he does not blanket the world in anti-magic, destroy the pantheon, herd all living creatures into a big ant-farm and poop on them. Essentially his rise to power has little effect on the average joe. This is a common assumption espoused by Khan the Destroyer himself on the Pun-Pun thread. The assumption is often made to avoid the "Ao argument." DM Fiat Clause: A fancy buzz-word for "No making up abilities that require DM adjudication." This means Epic Spells (unless already published), or any researched spell for that matter, are out. Why? This is a complicated playing field, why complicate things further by having people cook up new abilities and spells? After arguments, I think the following do NOT fall under this clause, though they are iffy in my mind: Artifact generation and Teleport through Time (the spell). [For this reason, I have avoided being a psionic character to protect against the annulus.] Mutual Existance Clause: The Terminator exists and so does Pun-Pun. This implies a certain "DM leniency." If the DM did not allow Pun-Pun to exist, the Terminator would have no point to exist. Tricky Rules: [1] As I outlined a few posts up, true shape change allows a deity to assume the form of any creature and gain all their extraordinary and supernatural abilities. The extraordinary abilities that the deity had before changing are retained. Thus, if the deity changes once, and then changes again he retains the (ex) abilities of the previous form. This allows the blantant creature stacking that I use. Rules quotes are provided in the post I referenced. The method in that post is illegal (an ice-assassin cannot use this trick), but I believe the method outlined in sequence 2 should work, and is supported by the basic rules outlined in the referenced post. [2] Here is the rules justification for the deity mind-switching with me, and me gaining the abilities I list. A deity is immune to polymorphing, petrification, or any other attack that alters its form. Any shape-altering powers the deity might have work normally on itself. You can call on rudimentary or instinctive knowledge of the subject creature, but not upon its acquired or learned knowledge (such as skills and feats it possesses). The same is true for the subject in your body. The mind switch brings about the following changes. Section 3: What does it all mean? After all that posturing, it might be kind of hard to see why everything was done the way it was. I will outline pertinant immunities that have proven problematic in the new incarnation of the Terminator: 1. Antimagic Field (extraordinary version of a colossus): This trick wasn't mentioned by anyone, but it would have worked against the second incarnation of the Terminator (this being the third). Here are the rules that protect me from this: (bolded emphasis mine) Antimagic Field (Ex):A colossus constantly generates an antimagic field in a 100-foot-radius. The field is an invisible barrier that is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines, except for the colossus’s own supernatural abilities. This effect is otherwise as an antimagic field cast by a 25th-level caster. 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst’s area defines how far from the point of origin the spell’s effect extends. An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres. If you don’t have line of effect to your target he is considered to have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover. Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this. Conclusion: The antimagic field has no effect on the deity who has swollowed me. I have total cover with respect to a spell whose point of origin lies outside the deity. 2. Buckets of quintessence: Deities of rank 6 or higher are immune to effects that imprison or banish them. Such effects include banishment, binding, dimensional anchor, dismissal, imprisonment, repulsion, soul bind, temporal stasis, trap the soul, and turning and rebuking. If that doesn't cover it, then perhaps the disintegrating special attack of an umbral blot will. If you want to say that the quintessence is being wielded by Pun-Pun and therefore gets his save bonus, then I would say that such an attack would fall under the Aleax immunity (no attack from a creature may hinder or harm the Aleax in any way). Either way, pouring any type of liquid or material on the god, or the terminator for that matter, is a futile attempt. The terminator does not disintegrate the inside of the deity by virtue of the fact that both are immune to all attacks via the zodar/ocean giant immunity (and the disintegration effect is a special ATTACK of an umbral blot). 3. Mobile Portals and the "butterfly net" of doom. The protective deity, in whom I reside, is in the form of a tarrasque. This means he is colossal in size. Any mobile portal that is constructed must be of this size or larger and must pass through my squares. Overunning or bull-rushing is an attack, which means I am immune to such attempts. According to the skill description for tumble, it is impossible to tumble through a dense bog. Thus, I make my realm an ever replentishing dense bog... sure it gets disintegrated as it touches me, but that's why it's ever replentishing. 4. Fate Card Mumbo-Jumbo: I won't touch on this here, save to recognize it. This deserves its own discussion post, and I don't really have the gumption to think about it now. 5.Others? I'll add 'em to the list when I find them.
Lokiyn 03-04-06, 03:29 PM	3. Mobile Portals and the "butterfly net" of doom. The protective deity, in whom I reside, is in the form of a tarrasque. This means he is colossal in size. Any mobile portal that is constructed must be of this size or larger and must pass through my squares. Overunning or bull-rushing is an attack, which means I am immune to such attempts. According to the skill description for tumble, it is impossible to tumble through a dense bog. Thus, I make my realm an ever replentishing dense bog... sure it gets disintegrated as it touches me, but that's why it's ever replentishing. Portals can be made any size as per the FrCs. Portals can be made To allow unattended material to go through as per the underdark book. A 50 mile wide double portal net would scoop up the entire divine realm and the terminator and deposit him in an dead magic plane. Affecting the future through the manipulation of the past. Pun pun can't alter the present through past manipulation without invoking the travel through times dm clause. However if pun pun affects the future through past manipulation then the clause remains uninvoked. In addition wishing for magic items may still cost you exp if you go over the minimum exp necessary to cast wish, even if its su, sp, or ex. however this was still being debated last i checked, and can thus be ignored.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-04-06, 05:35 PM	Hmmph. I knew that portals could be made of any size... the point was entering my square is impossible... but I'm sure you can find a way around that. If it weren't for the bloody tumble skill, I would be perfectly immune to the whole trick. So, I am thinking of a new trick. Do you know off the top of your head if the interaction between the shadow-weave and psionics is ever explicitly called out? I'm not sure where to look...
Lokiyn 03-04-06, 07:04 PM	Yep, its in the subpsionics section. of the minds eye Forgotten Realms: When using these psionic feats in the Forgotten Realmssetting, the subconscious mind is directly linked to the shadow weave. Psions that use these feats understand that they are using the shadow weave and are subject to all limitations and penalties that may be imposed as a result. At least thats all i've ever been able to find. Since the default setting in Faerun is that psionics and magic are not transparent, (meaning the transparency rules are in effect), Subpsionics interact with magic like shadow magic, and shadowmagic interacts with psionics as if it were regular magic. *edit* oh and the point i was making indirectly was that pun pun doesn't have to enter your square to pass the portal area over you. Then only thing you could prevent would be the frame from entering your square and if its 25 ish miles away....
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-04-06, 08:08 PM	Thanks. That might help things a bit. If I can eliminate the dependancy on planar traits and the weave in general... the perhaps I might be scott free. So besides the mobile portal net, what do you think of this recent incarnation? *Is the true shapechange abuse mechanic sound? It's got pretty much all I could ever ask for: *Immune to all magic and supernatural effects (the deity that encases me is... not the Terminator though) *Immune to all attacks (both deity and me) *Immune to all attacks of creatures that hinder or harm me (both deity and me) *Immune to just about every form of energy I can think of *Disintegration trick takes care of most any environmental concerns It's getting to the point where I wonder if mordenaiken's disjunction (my main reason for the whole planar traits thing) is becoming irrelevant. Perhaps I could eliminate the need for the godly realm. I'm fairly certain that there aren't many effects that pierce flesh that aren't already covered by the current immunities. So basically, mord's disjunction would not affect the Terminator (see the full cover immunity I site for AMF protection). Planar bubble tricks won't work, as the deity is immune to spell/supernatural effects. Currently I am working on a way to stop abusing the supernatural wish mechanic... as you said it's under contention. I would like to avoid as many rules-hassels as possible. The current plan is to abuse either psionic tattoo circuitry or to use LoP's BOB tricks in conjunction with thought bottles. Any suggestions on this front would be welcome, as I'm sure they would benefit other characters (even pun-pun).
Lokiyn 03-04-06, 10:59 PM	4. What if Pun-Pun thinks of this first and travels back in time?: Here I hope to be protected by the grandfather clause paradox. If I am older than Pun-Pun I could travel back further than Pun-Pun could before I would cease to exist. Hence my assumption at the very beginning of this post. I am also assuming that one cannot travel back further in time than one's birth. A fair assumption I think. Oh yes i forgot about this. Pun-Pun in the present searchs the globe for a location that has been undisturbed since the beginning of time, or baring that the oldest unaltered construction that has never been under the effects of of a dead magic field/antimagic field. Pun pun Travels back in time as far as he can and sequesters himself inside the item or location with as much anti detection/preservation he can muster with a contingent wake up set for the next tuesday after he goes back into the past. Having removed all possibility of past alteration pun pun removes the invocation of Dm Fiat.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-05-06, 12:09 AM	This accomplishes nothing for pun-pun. Here's why: 0. Terminator enters his invulnerable state 1. Pun-Pun Ascends 2. Pun-Pun goes back in time to point -X. 3. If pun-pun stays there and does not affect the present the Terminator doesn't care, his mere existance scared pun-pun into hiding and he succeeds. If pun-pun uses some sort of time hopping clones then the Terminator begins to regress back to a point inbetween 0 and 1. Pun-pun's action which sent him into the past is undone and he suddenly re-appears in the present, fully subjected to the effects of time regression. The regression is finished, and pun-pun is erased from existance. To pre-empt other time-tricks: *If pun-pun sends clones to regress time, he hurts himself, as he also is regressed. "Escaping" to the far-realm while these regressions take place is not a viable tactic either, as his time spent in the far-realm does not save him from any actions that take place on the material plane. *If pun-pun goes back into the past using teleport through time to prevent a future occurance he is slapped with a DM fiat clause. It may work, it may not... the result is up to the DM. This would include pun-pun going back and using a fate card to prevent the future occurance of the destruction of his ancestors.
Lokiyn 03-05-06, 12:22 AM	Pun-pun's action which sent him into the past is undone and he suddenly re-appears in the present, fully subjected to the effects of time regression. The regression is finished, and pun-pun is erased from existance. Nope Pun pun is in the past, immune to any effects in his future. time regression can't touch the far past. short of hunting down the hidden pun pun you cannot stop the Cicada Effect. The harvest will come to term. Again, the biggest flaw in this is that pun pun has multiple ways to simply establish an existance from the beginning of time. as i've pointed out several ways for him to do this.
FromTheShadows 03-05-06, 01:00 AM	Oi, this is starting to drift into a few paradoxes, namely the predestination paradox. Pun-Pun can only live because he goes back in time to protect himself from dying so that he can get powerful enough to go back in time to protect himself from dying... Not as complicated as say, the scenario in By His Bootstraps (http://www.xs4all.nl/~pot/scifi/byhisbootstraps.html), but this seems to be a paradox nonetheless. Of course, you have the grandfather paradox with the whole 'killing their past selves/parents to prevent the future' scenario, too... Time Regression seems to not mind this, as the text specifically mentions that you can take different actions during your second experience with the given time. Teleport Through Time does mention that it is effected by paradoxes, though usually their effects aren't far-reaching. So, in the end, this little aside doesn't seem to really matter. I'm just putting it out there on the off chance that it does. That, and I'm feeling a bit random today/tonight.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-05-06, 01:30 AM	Lokiyn, you missed my point completely. It's kind of hard to explain in words, but I'll try. Think of the timeline as a text book of history. Every persons actions are recorded in this book. If pun-pun goes back in time his action that sent him there is recorded at specific point in space-time. Pun-pun then appears elsewhere on the space-time continuum. While his path may be discontinuous it does not change the fact that certain actions took place at certain points on the space-time continuum. When time is regressed all characters are placed on the space-time continuum that they occupied the round previous. Any actions that they took in the now future were undone and they can choose to take different actions. These actions are recorded once again into the great text-book history of the universe, but they are recorded over the former actions. In fact many actions in the future may change as a result of a single regression. When the regression reaches the point along the time axis where pun-pun disappeared to a different time that action is undone, just as any other action would be. Just as with the undoing of an action that would precipate a whole string of certain outcomes in the future, so does the undoing of this action remove pun-pun from the past. Can you find a more simple explaination for how events are recorded in the timeline?
Lokiyn 03-05-06, 03:17 AM	Lokiyn, you missed my point completely. It's kind of hard to explain in words, but I'll try. Think of the timeline as a text book of history. Every persons actions are recorded in this book. If pun-pun goes back in time his action that sent him there is recorded at specific point in space-time. Pun-pun then appears elsewhere on the space-time continuum. While his path may be discontinuous it does not change the fact that certain actions took place at certain points on the space-time continuum. When time is regressed all characters are placed on the space-time continuum that they occupied the round previous. Any actions that they took in the now future were undone and they can choose to take different actions. These actions are recorded once again into the great text-book history of the universe, but they are recorded over the former actions. In fact many actions in the future may change as a result of a single regression. When the regression reaches the point along the time axis where pun-pun disappeared to a different time that action is undone, just as any other action would be. Just as with the undoing of an action that would precipate a whole string of certain outcomes in the future, so does the undoing of this action remove pun-pun from the past. Can you find a more simple explaination for how events are recorded in the timeline? And your missing mine. Its irrelevent there is NO causational link to the future for pun pun. Teleport Through Time Transmutation [Teleportation] Level: Sor/Wiz 9 Components: V, S, M, XP Casting Time: 1 round Range: Personal and touch Target: The character and touched objects or other touched willing creatures weighing up to 50 lb./level Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None and Will negates (object) Spell Resistance: No and Yes (object) A far more powerful version of the teleport spell, this spell instantly transports the character to the same location, but to a different time. Interplanar travel is not possible, and the spell fails on any plane where time is meaningless. The character can bring along objects and willing creatures totaling up to 50 pounds per caster level. Unwilling creatures cannot be affected by this spell. Only objects held or in use (attended) by another person receive saving throws and spell resistance. To cast this spell, the character must be able to state the arrival time accurately, down to the minute. The spell never transports the caster and companions to the precise minute desired, but it cannot function at all without a specific minute in time to target. This "drift" effect of not arriving at the precise time desired grows with the "distance" through time (measured in years, months, and weeks) traveled. Thus, a caster teleporting to last month arrives closer to her goal than one traveling 250 years. The minimum temporal distance traveled is 1 day, so this spell is not useful for going back to the beginning of a melee that is still progressing. This spell requires some knowledge of the destination time, so it cannot transport anyone into the future since the future is entirely unknown to the caster. Even spells that give knowledge of the future cannot give definite enough knowledge to allow this spell to work. It is possible to use this spell to travel forward in time, but only to the point in the caster's life when the caster first went back in time. Since the caster may not know exactly what is transpiring at the destination time, prudent time-travelers prepare for the worst. The errors in arrival for this spell occur in time rather than in location, since the character does not change locations at all. To see how closely the character arrives to the planned arrival time, consult this table. Temporal Distance Traveled Temporal Drift* Chance of Mishap 1 day to 1 month +/- d8 minutes 5% 1 month to 1 year +/- d8 hours 7% 1 year to 10 years +/- d20 hours 10% 10 years to 100 years +/- d8 days 15% 100 years to 1,000 years +/- d20 days 20% 1,000 years + +/- d20 months 25% * There is a 50% chance that the number is a negative number. Add or subtract the temporal drift to the destination time to determine the exact time of arrival. Mishaps result in the spell failing and the character taking 1 point of Intelligence damage for every 10 years of expected time travel due to the mental bombardment that time travel brings with it. Thus, a character trying to transport through 100 years would take 10 points of Intelligence damage. Intelligence can be reduced to 0 through this damage (but not lower). In the case that a traveler meets himself, the two travelers instantly lose control and attack each other with every ability and item at their disposal. However, should a traveler die while traveling in the past, the traveler's body immediately vanishes from the point of time it traveled to and returns to the point where the spell was cast at the time that the spell was cast. In other words, if a traveler perishes in a fire, the instant that the traveler died in that fire is the instant in which the traveler is no longer in that time period, and the body is never found within that location since it returns to the moment of time in which the traveler finished the spell and began time traveling. Special Note: The introduction of time travel into any campaign can be fraught with peril, so tread carefully. Players will wonder how much they can mess with the timeline, and you may run into instances of the grandfather paradox. Further, changes made very far back in time cannot really be worked out completely because of the chaotic aspect of events. Thus, it is simplest to use the rule that changes in time are minor and somehow time smooths them out. This argues for a determinism and predestination in the ways of your world, but you can say that once events have transpired, small perturbations are possible (this person lives rather than dies, but does not contribute to events in a meaningful way), but the large-scale events themselves somehow happen anyway. If the cause is changed, another cause comes along. In the case of someone killing their own grandfather, the PC might find that he is the same but has a different family when returning to the present. As long as you keep the knowledge of how to travel in time restricted, your campaign will not fall apart. Material Components: The material components of this spell are a pinch of dead skin, a drop of oil of timelessness, and a flower grown in soil untouched by any intelligent creature since the desired destination time. The flower must be picked during the casting of the spell. Untouched soil is defined as soil that no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher has walked on, touched, or disturbed in any way, and it is usually found in remote locations (putting soil in a portable container disturbs it). The caster does not know whether the soil has been disturbed too recently for the time travel attempt, and many wizards simply use trial and error to find suitable locations. In short, you must find a pristine area to cast this spell, then you travel back in time to the exact same location at which you cast the spell. Because important events in a character's life are highly unlikely to take place in pristine locales, it's unlikely you'll have the ability to use this spell to make two of yourself to appear in the same place at the same time. Once you cast the spell in a particular location, it is no longer pristine, making it even more difficult to arrange for three or more of your future selves to assemble together. XP Cost: 1,000 XP. Part 3 gives information on the survey constructs and some ideas for using this portal in your campaign. I'll borrow your inaccurate book analogy (there never is an accurate analogy) Suppose this mythical writer is writing in his book every event. On page 340 he writes instantanrous teleportation into the past. all of the sudden he realizes that in the margins (since it doesnt affect the main text) Cicada pun pun. The book has been rewritten but the main text hasn't been changed. So now the terminator starts tearing pages out of the book. It doesn't matter if the page containing the event is removed since pun pun was already there. Pun pun using a teleportation effect skips through the far realms and re-enters in the past. there is no link between him and the future. You can't undo pun puns existance in the past. There is no link not even through causality. So you undo a spell cast in the future what does that affect? there is nothing for it to effect. Your power cannot reach more than one round into the past. In addition your power does not affect objective time, as i have stated before you are limited to the manipulation of apparent or subjective time. The only link is within pun pun himself. If pun pun dies he returns to the future. In addition there are many many ways to travel to the past. Pun pun could go the the citadel of time and remain outside of time but within the multiverse allowing him to send agents to anywhen he wanted without worry about some one mucking with time.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-05-06, 07:10 PM	You continue to use the apparent vs. objective time argument, but I still have failed to find a reference that differentiates the two. Do you mind explicitly stating what you think the difference is? Furthermore, I also find it baffling how you deny the causal link between the future and past pun-pun. The future pun-pun begat the past pun-pun. Clearly this implies causality. When the time axis is no longer a positive linear progression (ie movement is allowed backwards and forwards) then causality can no longer be defined in a positive linear sense. A past action usually begets a future action, but now a future action may beget a past action. To erase the future action would undo the action that it causes, which in this case is a past action. The trouble of the matter is in the interpretations. You argue for a strictly positive linear interpretation of causality; I argue for the possibility of simply linear causality. Given that movement along the time axis is not strictly positive, the argument that causality is strictly positive is without basis. On to your other comments: Where or what is the citadel of time? Source? Also, what exactly does Pun-Pun accomplish by hiding in the past? He continues to live in the past, yes, but does not his future self disappear? In this case, does not the Terminator win? I mean he successfully scared pun-pun out of his time...
bomaz 03-06-06, 02:13 PM	what is the terminators defence against the infinite diplomacy check punpun has? isn't he just a fanatic servant of pun-pun should pun-pun want it so?
Kresalak 03-06-06, 03:53 PM	It's simple. The Fanatic thing is a mind affecting effect, which the Terminator is immune to. But more importantly, Diplomacy only works on NPCs, and the Terminator can simply declare himself a PC, like Fumbles did.
bomaz 03-06-06, 03:59 PM	ok, that is true.
lostone 03-07-06, 08:35 AM	But more importantly, Diplomacy only works on NPCs, and the Terminator can simply declare himself a PC, like Fumbles did.I'm not familiar with Fumbles, but can you say "metagaming"? How would the Terminator know if he is a PC or NPC, he doesn't even know what the terms mean! He doesn't just wake up one day and go, "hmm, I think I'll be a PC today, that way diplomacy won't work on me anymore. Besides, being an NPC was boring..." :banghead:
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-07-06, 12:10 PM	Being a PC since he was born he never had to listen to the words of others. How's that?
Kresalak 03-07-06, 12:22 PM	I'm not familiar with Fumbles, but can you say "metagaming"? How would the Terminator know if he is a PC or NPC, he doesn't even know what the terms mean! He doesn't just wake up one day and go, "hmm, I think I'll be a PC today, that way diplomacy won't work on me anymore. Besides, being an NPC was boring..." :banghead: Fumbles is a character from the webcomic Goblins. That part was a joke :P .
lostone 03-07-06, 12:30 PM	Fumbles is a character from the webcomic Goblins. That part was a joke :P .I feel I was denied critical...need to know...information! (:cookie: to anyone who recognizes that reference) Can you post a link to it?
Kresalak 03-07-06, 12:43 PM	Here ya go. (http://thunt.comicgen.com/) Just note that the comic comes in many pieces, so it's best not to scroll down until the entire page is done loading, lest you see what happens later on before seeing the beginning of the current comic.
Callae 03-08-06, 01:12 PM	I wonder if Pun-Pun's intense desire to survive would cause him to become a vestige (Pact Magic) if killed in the manner so described. Now there's a thought. ~C
bomaz 03-09-06, 02:49 PM	so what makes the terminator immune to your Jovocian Bomb ghola? also what do you think is so great about the dune series? (loved them myself just curious)
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-09-06, 03:07 PM	You can't harm me. I'm a God! What a grand and intoxicating innocence. (Since we seem to be playing the quote game, kudos to whomever can name the source of that quote. Hint: it's from a video game) What makes me immune to the jovocian bomb? The fact that the deity, in whom I am encase, can always roll a 20 on his saves. Couple that with mettle and I will never take damage from a thing which requires a fort/will save, as long as I make my save (which rolling a 20 always does). The fact that he blocks line of effect from the aura is what saves me from having to feel the effect. Another even better technique would be to acquire the tanar'ri subtype. The deity may use a permanent shapechange effect to acquire the subtype and the true shapechange into the tarrasque (Retaining his type and subtype). As for dune: I dunno. Have you ever read a more cool series? I mean, even lord of the rings doesn't quite touch the cool factor of dune. My favorite species in dune is obviously the bene tleilax. Face dancers are just too cool. Of course, I kinda dig the Ix too... the bene gesserit not so much.
bomaz 03-09-06, 03:19 PM	well what I liked most about dune was the philosofy, really bad for my head but I love it. "Wheels within wheels within wheels" and the like. not really cool but rather presenting a very different view on humans and the world
Khan the Destroyer 03-10-06, 03:56 AM	as long as I make my save (which rolling a 20 always does) Just one minor note of contention here. Greater deities always roll maximum. This means that when they make a saving throw, they automatically recieve a roll of 20, the highest number they can achieve. But they do not recieve an automatic success. A deity still has to roll to see if threatens a critical or auto-passes a saving throw.
Zaxter 03-10-06, 07:54 AM	You can't harm me. I'm a God! What a grand and intoxicating innocence. (Since we seem to be playing the quote game, kudos to whomever can name the source of that quote. Hint: it's from a video game) Just a guess, but...was it Kefka? Certainly sounds like him, but I can't remember if he said it.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-10-06, 11:15 AM	Just one minor note of contention here. Greater deities always roll maximum. This means that when they make a saving throw, they automatically recieve a roll of 20, the highest number they can achieve. But they do not recieve an automatic success. A deity still has to roll to see if threatens a critical or auto-passes a saving throw. Simply rolling 20 once suffices to "auto-pass" a saving throw. My deity shell is a greater deity. Also, they could maximize their "threatening" roll.
Khan the Destroyer 03-10-06, 12:18 PM	Simply rolling 20 once suffices to "auto-pass" a saving throw. My deity shell is a greater deity. Also, they could maximize their "threatening" roll. A greater deity doesn't actually roll a natural 20. He just gets the highest possible roll on the die. When a greater deity attacks, he does not automatically threaten a critical hit. He gets a 20 for his roll, but not a natural 20. If he wants to crit, he has to roll and the die has to come up as 20. This is the same with their saving throws.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-10-06, 01:04 PM	ummm... what? I always figured... oh well, reading the rules I see you're right. But so far as I am concerned, for saves it says: "When a greater deity makes a check, attack, or save assume a 20 was rolled and calculate success or failure from there." Since rolling a 20 always means success on a save... Also, the whole bit where the deity is immune to any supernatural effect... and can easily grant himself the tanar'ri subtype makes the point moot. Besides, I don't believe that the jovocian bomb is even legal... my proof of this is somewhere on the front page of this board. (Infinite Loop: Outside of RAW).
Lokiyn 03-11-06, 02:37 AM	Besides, I don't believe that the jovocian bomb is even legal... my proof of this is somewhere on the front page of this board. (Infinite Loop: Outside of RAW). Besides i don't believe the Teminator is even legal... my proof of this is forthcoming however i have way to many papaer due at the moment. Simply put a.) Pun pun precedes the terminator and thus may nullify anything the terminator may do through vertue of preexistance. b.) Pun pun can leave and reenter time at any point he wishes through a variety of methods. c.) Temportal regression is not more powerful than the powers nor is it able to rewrite all of creation, an absurd reading of the power. d.) Apparent != objective only the terminators subjective reality is altered. Now it may be that that means anything from "everything that the terminator has reacted with the last round is reversed" to "the terminator shifts into an alternate reality in which everything is just like it was before" e.) the power is personal range power which means it only affects the manifester. Lets look at that last one real fast with a quote Personal The power affects only you.
Tempest Stormwind 03-11-06, 02:57 AM	But so far as I am concerned, for saves it says: "When a greater deity makes a check, attack, or save assume a 20 was rolled and calculate success or failure from there." Since rolling a 20 always means success on a save... I don't have much to add at the moment, and I'm tired, but you forgot the second part of that SRD quote: "A d20 should still be rolled and used to check for a threat of a critical hit." Since a 20 (or similar number depending on the attack) must still come up on the die to determine a critical THREAT, this means that the only result of the Maximize Rolls thing is that no matter what number you roll, you add 20 to your bonuses for the DC. The roll still factors in for effects like critical hits -- that is, it is NOT the same as automatically rolling a 20 all the time (or else you'd always threaten). By extension, this means that you do not always succeed on saving throws.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-12-06, 12:27 AM	Besides i don't believe the Teminator is even legal... my proof of this is forthcoming however i have way to many papaer due at the moment. Simply put a.) Pun pun precedes the terminator and thus may nullify anything the terminator may do through vertue of preexistance. If he uses teleport through time, one could argue that any nullifications he preforms while in the past may have no effect in the end due to "determinism." Temporal regression would seem to indicate that all action in the previous round are undone, preventing one from going past one's own birth. b.) Pun pun can leave and reenter time at any point he wishes through a variety of methods. All I know is methods via temporal regression and teleport through time. Undoubtedly you are referring to the text about the far-realm. It says one may go to the beginning or end of time to reach the far realm. It never says that leaving the far realm will place you back at the beginning or the end. This is goes against the precedence that when you summon creatures from the far-realm (as an alienist does) that the arrive at the current time when they were summoned. c.) Temportal regression is not more powerful than the powers nor is it able to rewrite all of creation, an absurd reading of the power. I don't think it is any more absurd than reading manipulate form the way pun-pun does. The game designers say that all actions in the past round are undone... it doesn't say that it affects all actions in a 200' radius, or all actions within the Terminator's encounter. In fact, the only way it would work without ripping a hole in the fabric of time is if it regressed everything. d.) Apparent != objective only the terminators subjective reality is altered. Now it may be that that means anything from "everything that the terminator has reacted with the last round is reversed" to "the terminator shifts into an alternate reality in which everything is just like it was before" See my answer to c. The second interpretation is possible, but not much suggests this fact. Either way, in this alternative universe or in the current universe, the universe is as it was the round before. e.) the power is personal range power which means it only affects the manifester. You missed the part where, even though it only affects the manifestor, it says it affects all actions preformed in that round. The range is one thing, the effects which the spell describes is what really matters. Sure my shapechange spell only affects me, but it "affects" others when I use my changed form against them.
ManTimeForgot 03-14-06, 07:43 AM	You can't use quintessence to protect your items. If the items are removed from the time stream, then this means that when you travel back in time, then they don't. You will either have to hope to travel far enough back in time that Pun-Pun is no longer Nearly omnipotent, and can thus risk creating new items, OR have the items be old enough so as to not regress past the point of their creation. And I'm pretty sure there are not an abundance of milennia old psi-crowns of artifact stature just lying around. Another problem. Your location might be protected, but your identity is not. Upon the learning of the knowledge that you are attempting to perpetrate a temporal assasination (which he will learn about BEFORE you successfully manifest your temporal regression) Pun-Pun jumps back AS A FREE ACTION and goes back in time to the point where you no longer have your location hiding ability, and kills you. Nice try, but I don't think it holds up. MTF
DiamondShade0 03-14-06, 09:14 PM	This thread make me head hurt No seriously, i havn't read it all but everything seems to be about time travel, the only thing in the universe that is actually 100% theroretycal, making it imposible to gess the outcome. Anything could hapen: -disrupt time, killing yourself cu'z you sneezed on a t'rex -staying alive because speaking on an atomic level, why would you dissapear when you changed time? -create thy why? paradox (no more reason to go back in time to kill pun-pun since you got rid of him, then the 'next' you in the timeline wont go back in time to kill pun-pun, then pun-pun would never have been killed, then you would have went in the past to kill pun-pun, then...) -any other theory you can imagine so this is almost a case of : ''i'm right cu'z i say so''
DiamondShade0 03-14-06, 09:17 PM	Just thought of something: Why not kill him with the classic ''I dare you to destroy yourself'' This could actually be very funny (debating if he would do it)
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-14-06, 10:05 PM	You can't use quintessence to protect your items. If the items are removed from the time stream, then this means that when you travel back in time, then they don't. You will either have to hope to travel far enough back in time that Pun-Pun is no longer Nearly omnipotent, and can thus risk creating new items, OR have the items be old enough so as to not regress past the point of their creation. And I'm pretty sure there are not an abundance of milennia old psi-crowns of artifact stature just lying around. Another problem. Your location might be protected, but your identity is not. Upon the learning of the knowledge that you are attempting to perpetrate a temporal assasination (which he will learn about BEFORE you successfully manifest your temporal regression) Pun-Pun jumps back AS A FREE ACTION and goes back in time to the point where you no longer have your location hiding ability, and kills you. Nice try, but I don't think it holds up. MTF None of these criticisms apply to the recent incarnation. The newest incarnation does not require a "hidden location" or planar traits. The terminator cannot be killed by any means you could ever dream up. The best anyone has thus far is that he could be teleported to a dead magic zone. I'm working on that very idea right now: the solution likely lies in subpsionic items and the shadow-weave. As for the item mumbo jumbo: if you take the assumption that I am older and have existed in my invulnerable state for some time before pun-pun, then having my items is elementary. I simply make them before pun-pun existed. Regressing won't destroy them, so long as I don't regress beyond their creation. I really should write the current form up into the OP. However, there is a fatal flaw in the legality of the current form that I have yet to hammer out. Ironically no one has noticed this... but it's been there since the Terminator's conception.
ManTimeForgot 03-14-06, 11:37 PM	I'm pretty sure both voidstone and a sphere of annihilation can kill your tarrasque god-clone and you. Neither produces a death effect or a disintegration effect that I am aware of. Now being on the deity's home plane prevents a gate spell from opening up. But presumably someone could teleport you overtop a sphere of annihilation. And someone could conceivably planeshift your tarrasque dude onto the negative energy plane, whereupon a telekinetic thrust could be used to barrage the character with voidstones (plural). Another issue is that I'm pretty sure Pun-Pun can duplicate the effects of every spell as an extraordinary ability, thus limited magic on the deity's home plane doesn't do anything. MTF
bomaz 03-15-06, 12:40 AM	Just thought of something: Why not kill him with the classic ''I dare you to destroy yourself'' This could actually be very funny (debating if he would do it) he could and then some contingency would instantly return him to life
bomaz 03-15-06, 12:48 AM	wouldn't the terminator get some **** from Ao due to turning back time a millenia?
DiamondShade0 03-15-06, 06:53 AM	he could and then some contingency would instantly return him to life Nope, if he would do this he wouldn't be destroyed, so the bet would be unfulfilled
bomaz 03-15-06, 06:58 AM	he would have been destroyed, but only for an instant
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-15-06, 04:08 PM	wouldn't the terminator get some **** from Ao due to turning back time a millenia? Not if it didn't upset the cosmic balance. Since pun-pun is assumed to not have upset the balance, removing him will not upset the balance. It's a fine line... but what's good for the goose is good for the gander...
DiamondShade0 03-15-06, 08:53 PM	he would have been destroyed, but only for an instant You don't get the meaning, if Pu-pun would really want to fulfill the dare, he would need to destroy himself/stop existing. If he would come back for any reason (some contigency like you say), he would still be existing, so he would not have been able to fulfil the dare.
bomaz 03-16-06, 12:49 AM	Not if it didn't upset the cosmic balance. Since pun-pun is assumed to not have upset the balance, removing him will not upset the balance. It's a fine line... but what's good for the goose is good for the gander... It is not that you are removing him. It is the fact that you are turning back time for the whole universe 1 millenia. that upsets the cosmic balance not the killing
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-17-06, 01:41 PM	I don't think so... when I go back in time I just return to a previous point in time. Since the act of killing is unsettling (as you've admitted) and we can assume that cosmic balance has been maintained over the millenium, the balance will never be upset. The terminator simply moves the multiverse from one stable point to another... no problems there.
bomaz 03-17-06, 02:47 PM	undoing the time of troubles and similar could disrupt the cosmic balance if time was turned back things could turn out differently such as for example an ancestor of midnight being killed eading to midnight never excisting and therefore not asscending. a major disruption of the cosmic balance.
Lokiyn 03-17-06, 03:12 PM	undoing the time of troubles and similar could disrupt the cosmic balance if time was turned back things could turn out differently such as for example an ancestor of midnight being killed eading to midnight never excisting and therefore not asscending. a major disruption of the cosmic balance. Basic Translation: The Terminator cannot garuntee that through his actions of reversing time on such a large scale (or sliding off into his own alternate timeline) that the subsequent actions following the temporal reversal will result in the same set of events occuring because of the chaotic nature of reality. For example some battles and lives during this period were lost or saved through mere chance and could have gone one way or the other due to pure random nature. The Terminators actions may very well result in an event that in and of itself is more unbalaneing to the timestream than the neutral existance of pun pun. So the terminators Z motion through the time stream can not be categorically proven to be neutral. ------Z------ Where Z is the temporal regression.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-17-06, 04:38 PM	By that logic, I could say that the rise of pun-pun or any action might precipitate cosmic unbalance. If you want to use these types of arguments, as I've said before, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Either pun-pun is born and lives forever more in a vacuum, or both the Terminator and pun-pun are permitted to exist reasonably in the multiverse. What separates destroying all life or blanketing the multiverse in AMF from the Terminator is the probability that all things will continue on as normal. In the former case there is zero probability that life will continue as normal, in the later there is at least some probability that the "cosmic" balance will be maintained.
Lokiyn 03-17-06, 04:46 PM	I fairly certain there is a huge difference in effect from gaining near infinite power and then utilizing that power to maintain a state of non effect on the universe and forcibly [according to your view of the power] rewind all of existance to a previous state and hope that things go the same way again, which of course if your attempting to be as neutral as pun pun means that pun pun will come again when its pun puns time to come again. See thats the important difference, Pun pun doesn't actually make any changes, he just does his thing and then exists stage left. The terminator burns the stage down and hopes that it will be rebuilt the same way.
ManTimeForgot 03-17-06, 05:09 PM	This presumes that Pun-Pun's existence can actually be neutral with respect to the cosmos. It's entirely uncertain what the effects of a being with nigh-unlimited divine ranks would do to a cosmos. It is entirely without precedence that a being of such power would come to exist. Thus it is entirely uncertain whether or not Pun-Pun's own existence wouldn't pose some sort of threat. Assuming that there is a limited amount of energy in a universe (which pretty much by definition must be the case since there is always a limited amount of energy in any system), then what happens when Pun-Pun achieves so many divine ranks. Do divine ranks constitute a linear increase in power or are they geometric/exponential? Because if the latter is the case, then Pun-Pun would very quickly "tap out the multiverse" (to borrow an expression from a co-gamer of mine). This can't possibly be a good thing. It's also possible that there is no deity of time to reprimand him for his actions. Heck there aren't even Inevitables of time (which is rather silly if you ask me since the temporal order has to be the single most important order in the universe, even more so than the order of life and death). Edit: Upon further review of the Manual of the Planes it says that some Inevitables do exist on the Temporal Plane, but it does not identify them as agents of the temporal order... I suppose it would be a very natural house rule to include Inevitables of Time if much of your game hinged upon time manipulation. MTF
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-17-06, 07:13 PM	As MTF said, the silly assumption that gaining NI power has no effect on the multiverse, is just as silly as saying that regressing the multiverse to a point in the past would upset cosmic balance. If we assume that we regress to a point of "cosmic balance" and then let things play out again, the forces that were in place at that point will once again keep things in balance. If we regress to a point before pun-pun and pun-pun was not required to maintain the balance at that point, it is safe to say that whatever keeps the multiverse in balance will do so. The Terminator doesn't upset anything, he just gives those that would upset it another chance to do so. If we assume that cosmic balance will always be maintained because Ao has infinite power to maintain it, then the Terminator upsets nothing. Cosmic Balance is pre-determined.
Need_A_Life 03-19-06, 07:43 AM	I won't even pretend to have read the whole thing, I just reached this post and I am shaking my head in shame. Divine Shield. This increases the requirement of my build by 1 divine rank, but as pun-pun has demonstrated, obtaining divine ranks aren't all that hard. Assuming our psion has 1 divine rank and has the divine shield SDA, he can have the effect continually on his person and be protected completely from pun-pun's remote sensing. This protection is not opposable by a higher divine rank, it's simply a warding against remote sensing (among other things, but those aren't related to the argument). Once the plan is hatched, the psion acts immediately upon it, realizing its importance. The rest is... history. To justify the moment of clarity felt by the psion I could conceivably pull the stunt that LoP pulls and gain an infinite knowledge check. You can do this even easier, who needs divine ranks. 1) Go to the Outlands, near the center of the plane ALL DIVINE POWERS ARE NEGATED. 2) Now, shouldn't this block your Time Regression? No. If you read the description, there is only one mentioning of psionics and that only applies to 'psionic spell-like abilities', since you're using a psionic power everything is good. If someone already mentioned this, sorry for the disturbance.
Khan the Destroyer 03-19-06, 06:30 PM	This presumes that Pun-Pun's existence can actually be neutral with respect to the cosmos. It's entirely uncertain what the effects of a being with nigh-unlimited divine ranks would do to a cosmos. It is entirely without precedence that a being of such power would come to exist. Thus it is entirely uncertain whether or not Pun-Pun's own existence wouldn't pose some sort of threat. And since there is no way to be certain, and nothing implying within the rules text to say otherwise, we assume that Pun-Pun simply existing doesn't do anything. Assuming that there is a limited amount of energy in a universe (which pretty much by definition must be the case since there is always a limited amount of energy in any system), then what happens when Pun-Pun achieves so many divine ranks. This is not only assuming that there is a finite amount of energy in a system with infinite planes and infinite space within those planes, this is also assuming that gaining a divine rank draws energy from the multiverse somehow. Unless there is text in the rule books supporting both claims, I don't see why we should assume that this is how it works. It's also possible that there is no deity of time to reprimand him for his actions. Heck there aren't even Inevitables of time (which is rather silly if you ask me since the temporal order has to be the single most important order in the universe, even more so than the order of life and death). Pun-Pun would be a deity of time once he achieved his power. Presumably, he would be able to stop the Terminator simply with his power over the domain of time. But since, there are no abilities statted for a time god, we can only assume what powers he would have over it. As far as Inevitables are concerned, there is one dedicated to protecting temporal abuse. It is the Quarut in Fiend Folio, though it is hardly powerful enough to stop the Terminator. As MTF said, the silly assumption that gaining NI power has no effect on the multiverse, is just as silly as saying that regressing the multiverse to a point in the past would upset cosmic balance. It isn't a simply a silly assumption. There is no reason to conclude that a being with NI power would collapse the multiverse or anything equally upsetting. This is like that argument someone made against Pun-Pun long ago. The person said that Pun-Pun's psicrystal wouldn't be able to withstand all of the power it was gaining and would simply explode. There is no textual evidence to back that up. Likewise, saying the multiverse would be unbalanced because Pun-Pun exists is unsupported. In other words, it isn't a silly assumption, it is the default assumption. If we assume that we regress to a point of "cosmic balance" and then let things play out again, the forces that were in place at that point will once again keep things in balance. If we regress to a point before pun-pun and pun-pun was not required to maintain the balance at that point, it is safe to say that whatever keeps the multiverse in balance will do so. The Terminator doesn't upset anything, he just gives those that would upset it another chance to do so. If we assume that cosmic balance will always be maintained because Ao has infinite power to maintain it, then the Terminator upsets nothing. Cosmic Balance is pre-determined. I think what Lokiyn is saying is that when the Terminator is done regressing and allows time to move at normal pace again, there is no guarantee that everyone will take the same actions. Chance plays a role in everything (represented by the die roll). Someone may hit when previously they missed. Someone may fail a saving throw when the first time around they made it. With presumably an infinite number of beings affected by the regression, chance has a lot of... well... chances, to play events out differently. Because of this, the Terminator can actually affect the balance of things in the cosmos. And one being directing the events that happen in the entire cosmos is quite unsettling if you ask me. However, there is no way to govern how events will play out after the Terminator has regressed, so this argument is theoretical at best (though I think with more grounds than 'Pun-Pun exists so the multiverse can't handle it').
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-19-06, 06:40 PM	Yes, but to say that it may come out differently is not equivalent to saying that the power necessarily upsets the cosmic balance. If the power does not precipate cosmic unbalance when used once by one psion, why should it precipate cosmic unbalance when used once more by the same psion. It's just like the argument that debunked my attempt to debunk infinite loops: Basis: Manifesting Time Regression does not upset balance? True Hypothesis: Assume manifesting time regressions n times does not upset balance Inductive Step: Manifesting Time Regression again does not upset balance? True It's a proof by induction, I show a basis, assume the case n, and then show for any case n+1 the statement is still true. Thus Time Regression will never upset the balance.
ManTimeForgot 03-19-06, 08:37 PM	Its only a "default" assumption if you conclude that Pun-Pun can create something from nothing (divine power without source). And that is patently wrong. No thing (pun-pun or otherwise) can create something from nothing. No ability, magical or otherwise, can do this. It is wholly outside the bounds of logic to do so. So either Pun-Pun is getting the power from some where or he doesn't have it. And so yes it is a silly assumption to assume that Pun-Pun can just exist neutrally. Heck this doesn't even analyze what his role would be as a diety of "everything." I've got to back up Ghola here too: If one temporal regression doesn't cause the cosmic balance to be upset, then no matter how many temporal regressions you make it will not upset the balance. And I can reach this conclusion deductively. If you guys are willing to assume that the multiverse is infinite, whereby there are now infinite inhabitants and infinite energy in the system (which I won't because it is patently ludicrous to do so, but since the book seem hardset on this and that's what you guys want to use, then lets do so), then this means that a single temporal regression if it were to cause any upset of the cosmic balance would result in infinite errors/upset of the cosmic balance since an infinite amount of energy would choose a new direction and an infinite amount of rolls would take a different course. This would result in infinite cosmic disturbance from a single use of Temporal Regression. Since the multiverse does not end, explode, or is in any way made in jeopardy by a single casting of Temporal Regression we can conlude that Temporal Regression does not cause any cosmological balance upset. MTF
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-19-06, 09:26 PM	Your deductive proof is nice MTF, but lacks the luster of an inductive proof in my mind. A time regression does not cause the multiverse to implode, correct, but it may cause certain localized "cosmic unbalances." These localized effects may or may not be significant. We don't know. It could be argued that when these localized effects are summed that they may result in a net cosmic disturbance that would warrent the wrath of Ao. However, this line of argument is completely smashed by the inductive proof I presented earlier. A deductive proof in this matter would require more data, as the current rules set is ambiguous. I'm finding more and more that the rules are best upheld by inductive reasoning.
Kresalak 03-19-06, 10:18 PM	Its only a "default" assumption if you conclude that Pun-Pun can create something from nothing (divine power without source). And that is patently wrong. No thing (pun-pun or otherwise) can create something from nothing. No ability, magical or otherwise, can do this. It is wholly outside the bounds of logic to do so. This is logic. This is D&D. The two aren't on speaking terms. There is no reason to assume that magic cannot create something from nothing. When holding bat poop and doing a funny dance creates a 20 ft. radius of intense heat that creates almost no pressure, assuming that magic can create something out of nothing (polymorph anyone?) doesn't seem so ridiculous.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-19-06, 11:50 PM	This is logic. This is D&D. The two aren't on speaking terms. There is no reason to assume that magic cannot create something from nothing. When holding bat poop and doing a funny dance creates a 20 ft. radius of intense heat that creates almost no pressure, assuming that magic can create something out of nothing (polymorph anyone?) doesn't seem so ridiculous. True in this instance, but chanting that mantra will not save you from logic. D&D has many rules. Rules are restrictions. Logic is the ability to produce results from a given set of restrictions. Ergo, logic is essential in the functionality of D&D. The two are very friendly. However, D&D and "common logic" are not friendly. They are mortal enemies. Common logic stems from real world experience, but D&D, though based in reality, is not always realistic. This is because the rules of the world as we know it are different than the D&D world. A simple, yet oft over looked difference. :rolleyes:
Lokiyn 03-24-06, 02:08 AM	Found something interesting while working on my ultimate ecl table. The Nera from the Fiend Folio Pointed me to the Plane of mirrors. Now i've used this befor in an attempt to entrap pun pun but i realized that it has a unique trait not shared by any other plane. It has the Static Time Trait What this means is that time inside the plane of mirror moves at a constant rate and cannot be altered. And of course with the Aleax immunities Pun Pun is immune to Pun-Pun's Duplicate. (We know that the time isn't stopped because the nera use mirrors to moniter the realms in "real time")
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-24-06, 05:04 AM	Interesting find Lokiyn. I am not finding the passage you reference. I see that the plane of mirrors is static, but I do not see that it has "static time." Care to enlighten me?
Lokiyn 03-24-06, 02:09 PM	Fiend Folio Page 128 Side Bar Nerra and the Manual of the Planes Creating Devious schemes, *snip yadda yada* Constelations are mirrors that have something in common, Created by the same owner, made from the same source, or created in the same place.Becasue time is static in the Plane of Mirrors, a nerra can watch entire generations pass by and learn a tremendous amount about them
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-24-06, 04:28 PM	Interesting... I'll have to look into that further. I plan to update the Terminator OP immediately. I have a new method for the terminator which removes much of his item dependancy, allows him to occupy a dead magic zone (and still function), and maintain the highest form of invulnerability I have yet to produce. These new changes eliminates any of the secret legality issues I had been previously harboring. (I will unveil these legal issues in the OP)
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-25-06, 03:40 PM	Hmm.. That quote is in direct conflict with this quote from the Manual of the Planes: The plane of mirrors has the following traits. Normal Gravity Normal Time Finite Size Static No Elemental or Entery Traits: All forms of elements and energies may be found here. Mildly Neutral-Aligned: A particular grouping of mirrors may have different alignment trait however. Normal Magic (Pg 10, Manual of the Planes): Normal Time: This is the standard rate of time, compared to the Material Plane. One hour on a plane with normal time equals one hour on the Material Plane. Static: These planes are unchanging. Visitors cannot affect living residents of the plane, nor objects that the denizens possess. Any spells that would affect those on the plane have no effect unless the plane's static trait is somehowe removed or suppressed.... In the flavor text of the plane of mirrors there is nothing to indicate that time is "static." We are clearly dealing with a rules contradiction here... I'm not sure how to handle it.
Lokiyn 03-25-06, 09:54 PM	Not entirely I think that this is the key point (Pg 10, Manual of the Planes): Normal Time: This is the standard rate of time, compared to the Material Plane. One hour on a plane with normal time equals one hour on the Material Plane. Static: These planes are unchanging. Visitors cannot affect living residents of the plane, nor objects that the denizens possess. Any spells that would affect those on the plane have no effect unless the plane's static trait is somehowe removed or suppressed.... I think the lines in the Fiend Folio References the parts i bolded. Since Time Flows onwards at a Normal pace as you quoted above. And the plane has a Static Trait then the flow of time [rate] is static Leading the author of the Fiend Folio to state that the time trait was static. A more proper way for them to have stated this would have been to say "Because {the flow of} time is static in the Plane of Mirrors..."
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-25-06, 11:14 PM	Normal time means 1 hour of on the material plane = 1 hour on mirror plane. So if -1 hours pass on the material plane, then -1 hours pass on the mirror plane. I'm not affecting anyone on the plane so much as I am affecting the material plane's time, to which all other clocks are set. Now, if I were on the mirror plane, and the time were static as is stated in the fiend folio, then I could not affect time if I were a denizen of the plane. I'm not sure what constitutes a "denizen." If it means native, then I can affect myself with time regression as I am not a native. Furthermore, time stop would still function. The only thing that need be maintained is the FLOW of time. As long as a round on the material plane passes for every round on the mirror plane, I violate nothing. Conclusion: this plane does not stop the Terminator.
Lokiyn 03-26-06, 12:36 AM	Except thats not how time works. The Material is a Ruler that time is measured against. Normal Material Time is set to 1 Round (the general unit of action time) equals 6 seconds of objective time. Even if you speed time up its still measured against the standard of 1 round = six seconds So a plane going 100 times as fast means that it has 100 rounds in six seconds. Altering the time flow of the material plane has no effect on this. Normal TimeThis trait describes the way time passes on the Material Plane. One hour on a plane with normal time equals one hour on the Material Plane. Unless otherwise noted in a description, every plane has the normal time trait. This is the Standard Rate of time, Compared to the material plane. one hour on a plane with normal time equals one hour on the material plane Time flows independently on each plane with respect to rates. in addition I Do not hold to the believe that Regression of Apparent time is the same as reversal of real time. Instead the Personal Range Power affecting only the Terminator Moves the locus of control 1 round into the past, allowing the Knowledge and Mental Locus of the Terminator of the now to replace the Terminator of the Past. Personal powers cannot affect anyone other than the person who is using them. Draw a line three inches long, Remove your pen and place it at the two inch mark and redraw the line. You do not erase the line as you go back, You Recreate the line in a different form, if you can If i'm in Faerun and i time regress a round i am unable to affect anything in Kara-Tur if i can't get there before the round passes. Now back to Pun Pun, Remember Pun Pun has several Methods of Returning to the past. If he does got to the past, He is perfectly capable of ensuring that some time in the distant future he achieves his pun pun ness. The simplest way is with incorporeality, and Natural (ex) invisibility to monitor and protect is distant ancestors. Since pun pun has a detailed knowlege of his past lineage its childsplay to set guardians to protect them from outside interference. Hmm, there is a idea. Its technically possible to craft an incorporeal spellbook and use Riverine laced gloves to manipulate and turn the pages..... That will stop that pesky rogue.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-26-06, 01:27 AM	Okay, you realize that your "independant" time-line theory does not match up with the rules at all? Consider this: I go to a plane with slow time, spend a year there and then return to the material plane. By your definition each plane has its own timeline which is independant of the material "clock." So when I return the number of rounds that I spent on the slow plane is independant of the material plane. I could arrive at the same time I left, some time before, some time after. All of these are possible, if you assume the plane's clocks are not entirely dependant upon a single "standardized clock." The rules, on numerous occasions, describe how one may escape to faster time planes to buff up and then return to a slower frame and it would appear that you were gone for a shorter time than you actually were. The rules also indicate that you always appear AFTER you left. Given these two premises it is clear that there must exist a correlation between the "clocks" of individual planes. I could regress on any plane and it would affect the multiverse accordingly. Assuming I regress the material plane the planes who move more quickly with respect to the material plane would regress multiple rounds and the planes who move slower would regress fewer rounds. Draw a line three inches long, Remove your pen and place it at the two inch mark and redraw the line. You do not erase the line as you go back, You Recreate the line in a different form, if you can If i'm in Faerun and i time regress a round i am unable to affect anything in Kara-Tur if i can't get there before the round passes. You're blatantly ignoring the text of the power. It clearly says that any actions preformed by "everyone else are undone in the meantime". "Undone" in your analogy would mean I erase the the line back to the two inch mark and then redraw it.
Lokiyn 03-26-06, 11:44 AM	Okay, you realize that your "independant" time-line theory does not match up with the rules at all? Consider this: I go to a plane with slow time, spend a year there and then return to the material plane. By your definition each plane has its own timeline which is independant of the material "clock." So when I return the number of rounds that I spent on the slow plane is independant of the material plane. I could arrive at the same time I left, some time before, some time after. All of these are possible, if you assume the plane's clocks are not entirely dependant upon a single "standardized clock." The rules, on numerous occasions, describe how one may escape to faster time planes to buff up and then return to a slower frame and it would appear that you were gone for a shorter time than you actually were. The rules also indicate that you always appear AFTER you left. Given these two premises it is clear that there must exist a correlation between the "clocks" of individual planes. Cute but irrelevent. Independent Time flow does not meant that time passes intdependently on each plane, Thats not even what i stated. What i stated was that all planes have a set rate. Altering the Rate of flow on one plane does not alter the rate of flow on all planes. If i cast a Mammoth Time stop that somehow hit the entire planet of torril at once Time would still Flow at the same rate everywhere else. If i speed up time on the material time does not speed up the universe over. Same as if i slow it. The Universe has a set of constants regarding the passage of time. You may add or subtract a second variable but there is not altering the constant. Its not that the planes aren't linked, its just that manipulateing the time flow on one plane does not affect the others. Normal time is still 1 round to 1 round even if you have manipulated the flow of time to create flowing time of 2 rounds to 1 round on the material plane. You're blatantly ignoring the text of the power. It clearly says that any actions preformed by "everyone else are undone in the meantime". "Undone" in your analogy would mean I erase the the line back to the two inch mark and then redraw it. No i'm not, it clearly states that you are affecting Apparent time To the manifester they have Apparently undone the actions, however as a personal power it by definition cannot direct alter the actions of others in the manner you believe it does. Placing the Locus of control in the past satisfies both the flavor and mechanics of the power. Since the Manifester is unable to sit outside of time and look at thinks objectivly then from thier point of view things have been undone However the reality is that the manifester simply gets a second chance to alter what has been(will been/won't been*) in regardards to what the manifester could directly influence. If i could only move thirty feet per round regardless of anything else and i've reverted to the position i was at 60 ft ago i still can only move within a 30ft radius, i cant reach anything outside that range.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-26-06, 08:11 PM	Cute but irrelevent. Independent Time flow does not meant that time passes intdependently on each plane, Thats not even what i stated. What i stated was that all planes have a set rate. Altering the Rate of flow on one plane does not alter the rate of flow on all planes. If i cast a Mammoth Time stop that somehow hit the entire planet of torril at once Time would still Flow at the same rate everywhere else. If i speed up time on the material time does not speed up the universe over. Same as if i slow it. The Universe has a set of constants regarding the passage of time. You may add or subtract a second variable but there is not altering the constant. Ok, fine. Sorry, I thought you were talking about the function which describes the time of a given plane, not its derivative. What's the value in proving that the derivative of the time function on a plane is independant of the material plane? Of course this is true, assuming time is linear, as you will always get a constant value. Actually all your assertion proves is that time must in fact be linear. Tx = time on plane x (non-periodic) b = "time flow" with respect to material plane. Tx = bt (d/dt)Tx = b Your logic may apply to time-stop*, but not time regression. Time regression adjusts the variable t of the linear time equation. So a regression on any plane necessarily affects the material plane (to which its time is "linked" and therefore affects all planes linked to the material plane, which is all planes except the far-realm). *When I apply your logic to time-stop, we could say that the time stop affects only the localized time rate (setting b locally to zero). This produces illogical consequences in that one plane may suddenly develop an offset with respect to other planes. This means that if I used a time stop on plane X and then traveled back to the material plane I would move back in time. This is of course silly, so we must conclude that time-stop affects the entire multiverse at once. No i'm not, it clearly states that you are affecting Apparent time To the manifester they have Apparently undone the actions, however as a personal power it by definition cannot direct alter the actions of others in the manner you believe it does. Placing the Locus of control in the past satisfies both the flavor and mechanics of the power. Since the Manifester is unable to sit outside of time and look at thinks objectivly then from thier point of view things have been undone However the reality is that the manifester simply gets a second chance to alter what has been(will been/won't been*) in regardards to what the manifester could directly influence. If i could only move thirty feet per round regardless of anything else and i've reverted to the position i was at 60 ft ago i still can only move within a 30ft radius, i cant reach anything outside that range. This line of reasoning is assinine and does not follow any precedences in the rules. Look at the spell apocalypse from the sky (book of vile darkness). The range is personal, yet the spell description clearly states that it damages all those within the specified area. Obviously the range of the spell is not the sole determining factor in what the spell might affect. One should look at the spell description to see who or what is affected when the spell is cast. Time regression clearly states in its description that everyone's actions are undone. Furthermore, you continue to distinguish apparent and real time. I don't know why, but it seems to be your reassuring mantra. I have found no where in the rules that where the distinguishment of the two has negates any "real" or "objective" consequences of the spell. The two time lines may be separate, but they are certainly inter-twined, as one begets real and tangible results in the other. Your notion of "locus of control" does not fit the flavor because after the spell is completed and the actions are re-done, their consequences endure. Unless you want to say that time regression throws the manifestor permanently into his own dream world where the world is different, your interpretation makes no sense. Even if this what you would like to assume, I fail to see how it affects the Terminator. He retains the knowledge of a pun-pun that has existed and he observes a world in which he will no longer exist. This is a success from his perspective.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-27-06, 10:04 PM	Um, right. Sorry the harsh tone in the above post... I was not in a good mood. Anyways, I really should get to hammering out that "time theory" I promised so that all of these issues may be resolved in a succinct and mathematical manner. I hate having to go into semantic arguements.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-28-06, 05:07 PM	I'm going to ammend my comments on time-stop in my previous post (and organize it into points to facilitate arguement): 1. Let's assume for your sake that apparent time and "objective time" are different. (even though I haven't found a reference to objective time anywhere in the rules). 2. Let me define apparent time to be the time that an individual observes passing. Normally objective time (the laboratory frame) and apparent time are identical. However, in time-stop the objective and apparent are clearly different. 3. How are we to divide up time?: There is a pretty simple answer really, and it's based on turns (not rounds). Each round fundamentally consists of two things: the environment and the characters and their turns. If we treat the environment as a background pool of input variables, then we really only have characters taking turns under a variable set of inputs. Each turn contains an arbitrary number of events preformed by that one character and there are an arbitrary number of turns in a round. 4. Interactions between turns: We will need a more robust form of causality between turns that the causality we are normally used to in real life because temporal magic screws things up. I will define every single event to be a function which acts on other events. Thus an event is nothing more than something which takes input functions and spits out more functions. These function operators cannot be generally defined, but they may transform n-inputs into m-outputs where n and m are integers who are not at all related to eachother. This is all pretty vague, but at least we know that the input number of event functions and output number of event functions are always integers and we know that if an event acts on itself that it spits itself out. This system of analysis allows for simultaneous events, non-sequential events, and any other wacked out system of events you can dream up. For those of you who are more computer science oriented (I'm not) my best analogy would be that each of these function operators (events) is some sort of a two-way pointer. If you return the value of the pointer it will spit out two arrays: one of events that caused it and one of events that it caused. 5. Matching this up with the rules: Lets say we have the following example round (broken into turns): Fighter Wizard Enemy Now break down each turn (broken into events): Fighter: [reactive spot check] See enemy on other side of lava [Enemy, Lava pool]-> Jump over lava pool to enemy (move action) [Failed jump, lava pool]-> Fall into lava [Fall into lava, lava pool traits]->Takes 20d6 fire damage [Fire damage, current hitpoints]->Screams in pain and dies [Death of character]->End character's round Wizard: [Fighter in Lava, Wizard's ego]->Wizard smiles and shakes his head at the "silly fighter." [Wizard sees enemy, Fighter in lava pool]->Cast time stop to buff up (3 more rounds of actions gained.) [Enemy appears a powerful melee character, Current wizard form is weak]->Shapechange into a pit-fiend [Knowledge enemy check, current spells available]->Fly towards enemy (over the lava pool) and drops a delayed fireball on top of the enemy. [Current spells available, knowledge check]-> Summon a fire immune creature next to enemy [Knowledge of time stop duration, desire to preserve life]-> Move away from enemy [Time stop ends, desire to preserve life]->Move away from enemy [Fireball goes off, summoned creature attacks]->Cackle maniacally [Number of actions in turn depleted]->End turn Enemy: [Fireball goes off, Current hit points, ref save]->Howl in pain [Summoned Creature attacks, current hit points, AC]->More pain [Current hitpoints, how ****** off the DM is, fudged roll]->death ray beam the wizard. [Wizard dies, Fighter dead, DM feels bad]->Enemy slays himself. [Enemy dead]->End enemy's turn. Dealing with duration effects. Duration runs off of the number of apparent rounds to which the bearer of the effect (or effect itself) feels. So the time-stop summon feels 2 rounds pass (one in time stop, and one outside of it). Characters can die in another characters turn. Notice that not all events caused the other events in the turn, and that all events had causes. In this example all the causes preceded the event temporally, but we could easily construe a situation where the event would predate the cause temporally. Here's an example: [time regression, realized the party is screwed]->Arrive one round earlier -or- [desire to escape terminator, teleport through time]-> Arrive in the past. 6. Applying this to the Terminator->The terminator regresses apparent time, that is he regresses time from his frame of reference. When he does so, he can "regress apparent time 1 round into the past" arriving at "the point along the time stream just prior to your previous turn." This means that he goes back 1 round to his previous turn. Assuming he wasn't in a time stop, his apparent round would be the same as a whole turn for him. If someone preformed a time-stop on their turn before the Terminator it will not affect the regression in the slightest, as the regression only affects the time apparent to the manifestor. The time stop of another is not apparent to the Terminator, which makes sense. Now let's say pun-pun wants to "escape" the terminator by going into the past. Pun-pun does so at round X. The terminator regresses over round X to round X-1. The cause which placed pun-pun in the past is undone, which forces pun-pun back to the present. This is a very simple and natural conclusion (in my mind). Now does this model satisfy the rules? Did I leave out something? I edited the OP of my time thread here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8642161#post8642161). The ideas above are explained better there.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-31-06, 12:14 PM	Just a shot in the dark here: do AMF prevent the function of a portal? I can't seem to find a contradictory statement in the rules. Here's another interesting question: If a collosus's AMF is extraordinary it cannot be dispelled by definition. "The field is an invisible barrier that is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines, except for the colossus’s own supernatural abilities. This effect is otherwise as an antimagic field cast by a 25th-level caster." The field of course won't affect a deity like pun-pun or an artifact. But as long as portals are magic items they will not function in this field. Next question: Can portals be made into intelligent items? I assume so. But even if they can be, wouldn't their magical abilities be suppressed in an AMF, much like any character who moves into an AMF. Final Question: Would a collossus constructed by a disciple of the shadow weave emananate an antimagic field that manipulates the shadow weave too?
Tempest Stormwind 03-31-06, 12:59 PM	Just a shot in the dark here: do AMF prevent the function of a portal? I can't seem to find a contradictory statement in the rules. I'm not sure about the rest of these, and I'm away from the books, but portals, being (technically) magic items and (definitely) magical effects, would definitely be surpressed in an AMF. At least, this is what my IDHTBWM statement reads.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-31-06, 08:19 PM	I think that if one is to say that a portal created via the shadow weave uses the shadow weave then a collosus created by magic of the shadow weave should produce effects that use the shadow weave. Here's the fuzzy logic: Portals produce a teleportation without error-like effect that transcends planar barriers. Collossi produce an antimagic field-like effect. Now the shadow magic feat basically says that any item created by a shadow-weave wielder makes use of the shadow weave to create its magical effects. Clearly this means that the portal must use the shadow weave to create its teleportation effect. It's not so clear, however, that the collosus's AMF falls under the same category. Why? Because extraordinary abilities aren't magical in nature. However, in order to affect magic the AMF necessarily must be magical-- in which case it would use the shadow weave. However, if we assume that the field is not magical in nature, then we can only go by what the ability description says, which is that all magical items, spells, and spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities are supressed in the field. The clause that says "otherwise functions like an AMF cast by a 25th level caster," would then refer to anything that wasn't covered by the above description. Since the above description stipulates that it is extraordinary, any magical traits that the spell description provides (like school, duration, etc, etc) are not applicable. The only thing I can think that this clause would serve to do is show that the field doesn't affect artifacts or deities (a clause from the spell description) and that epic spells or special abilities that allow one to cast in an AMF and are checked against a CL are checked against an "effective CL" of 25. Bottom-line: Either way you slice it the collosus's AMF will protect me from a mobile portal. This is a significant advancement towards the success of this build I believe. Once I establish that the Terminator cannot be affected or moved in any way, he becomes unstoppable. With the time theory that I have developed, I can prove that no time-jockying scheme cooked up by Pun-Pun can escape the Terminator. Finally, I think that use of fate cards to stop the Terminator may fall under the Aleax immunity, as they would hinder the Terminator (if used to prevent him from preforming a certain action).
Lokiyn 03-31-06, 09:57 PM	Bottom-line: Either way you slice it the collosus's AMF will protect me from a mobile portal. This is a significant advancement towards the success of this build I believe. Once I establish that the Terminator cannot be affected or moved in any way, he becomes unstoppable. Assuming, of course that the entire portal is within the antimagic field, Off the top of my head one counter to the field is to utilize the option of Moving portal to bind it to a creature with the construct type during the creation of the construct so that the portal is an inherent aspect of the golem. Antimagic field A normal creature can enter the area, as can normal missiles. Furthermore, while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that). The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Since we are running off of literal translations The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs... by "raw" at least barring errata (i didn't see any on this, i might have missed it) such a portal frame would be unaffected by the antimagic field. The actual effect is another matter since the game doesn't cover weather the effect is generated by the portal frame or held open by the frame. (judging by the descriptions of portals before the second portal is built one would assume that the Frames only purpose is to hold open the portals conduit. ah well. Of less Raw if the portal wasn't entirely contained within the field it would still function, the text however states creatures ::shrugs:: If you Say that the actual material of the portal is nonmagical one could animate object it, however the general view is that magic items are material becomes inherently magical hmm lets see three other issues. 1.) Antimagic field is an emanation that means if the creature is enclose inside a container (which is possible without entering the creatures square or within the creatures reach even more so when one considers how fast pun pun can move) Then its a simmple heave ho to toss the container through the Awaiting portal, or of course encase the container in quintessence. 2.) Temporal Regression does not actually undo actions outside of the Regresser's perspective. Note that other creatures do not get to choose new actions unless the Regresser interferes with them You can regress apparent time 1 round into the past. In effect, you “replay” the previous round of activity. The power regresses time to the point along the time stream just prior to your previous turn, undoing the effects of everyone else’s actions in the meantime. Once you have used time regression, only you retain knowledge of what happened during the round that is being replayed; however, you can communicate that knowledge verbally to your companions, if desired.During the round that you live through a second time, you can act on knowledge you previously gained by already living through the immediate future. In all likelihood, you’ll probably not choose to manifest time regression during your second pass through the time stream, instead taking completely new actions, but you pay the XP cost all the same. If Regression Truely undid all the actions then the others could choose new actions. However Others can only take different actions if the Regresser communicates that knowledge of the future 3.) Teleport through time is immune to manipulation from the future. Material Components: The material components of this spell are a pinch of dead skin, a drop of oil of timelessness, and a flower grown in soil untouched by any intelligent creature since the desired destination time. The flower must be picked during the casting of the spell. Untouched soil is defined as soil that no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher has walked on, touched, or disturbed in any way, and it is usually found in remote locations (putting soil in a portable container disturbs it). The caster does not know whether the soil has been disturbed too recently for the time travel attempt, and many wizards simply use trial and error to find suitable locations. In short, you must find a pristine area to cast this spell, then you travel back in time to the exact same location at which you cast the spell. Because important events in a character's life are highly unlikely to take place in pristine locales, it's unlikely you'll have the ability to use this spell to make two of yourself to appear in the same place at the same time. Once you cast the spell in a particular location, it is no longer pristine, making it even more difficult to arrange for three or more of your future selves to assemble together. Notice something, If the Teleport through time suffered from changes in the future. Then the very act of using the spell would invalidate the spell itself causing it to fail, Thus the Ciccada Tactic functions, Even Better the Traverler "knows" that other than himself no intteligent creature will disturb the spot so they can rapidly entomb themself and hid all auras untill the future. Even more so if the Time Traveler wishes utilizing trained creatures of an intelligence 2 or less (like construct) to prepare a plot of ground and seed with flowers for the spell. (prehaps in a cavern deep beneeth the ice caps)
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-31-06, 11:36 PM	*takes a deep breath* 2.) Temporal Regression does not actually undo actions outside of the Regresser's perspective. Note that other creatures do not get to choose new actions unless the Regresser interferes with them I've taken your interpretation to its logical conclusion. See my time theory thread or the rough sketch a few posts up. I now fully agree, the time regression is from the perspective of the manifestor only. This does not in any way, however, indicate that the actions of others are predetermined unless the manifestor informs them of the future. It is suggested that they will likely preform the same actions, but it also says "you can communicate that knowledge verbally to your companions, if desired." Now if I can communicate to my companions about the future, then this means they can interact with me and the course of events may be changed. This is afterall, the intent of the power. Furthermore, the following sentence is just too explicit for your interpretation to make sense. The power regresses time to the point along the time stream just prior to your previous turn, undoing the effects of everyone else’s actions in the meantime.Notice how this sentence doesn't say, "undoing the effects of everyone else's actions ON THE MANIFESTOR in the mean time." This means that the effects of everyone else's actions are undone. This, of course, makes sense because if actions of the future remained in effect then some of your comrades might be dead in this "replay" of the past round. According to you, the actions of the past are predetermined. All right, I can handle that, but this doesn't protect Pun-Pun from anything. Let's say that your interpretation is correct: that no one may take a different action unless they are informed by the manifestor. According to the text, any effects that resulted from anyone's actions "in the meantime" (that is inbetween your manifestation and your previous turn) are undone. So even if they are doomed to preform the same actions over again, their effects are still undone. This means that the effect of a teleport through time would be undone as well. Now to handle the "paradox" you raise. In my time theory I say that events may be tracked two ways, such that causality is free to flow from past to present. This is so that strange spells, like teleport through time make sense. Now what we have is the following sequence of events: -1. Pun-Pun teleports to this location 0. Terminator becomes invulnerable 1. Pun-Pun ascends 2. Pun-Pun finds a pristine location that has undisturbed soil* 3. Terminator regresses time back to 0. *The wording that describes undisturbed soil uses the past tense. This means that the soil cannot have been disturbed any time prior to the casting of the spell. If the soil was disturbed in the future, the spell does not make a stipulation against it being a valid site. I'm afraid that grammar must actually play a role here. This interpretation of the grammar is valid regardless of the reference frame used. All that is required is that the caster view the site to be pristine from his apparent reference frame. Whether that frame matches up with the objective frame does not matter, as the spell description does not stipulate a reference frame. In normal circumstances, the reference frame of the caster is the objective frame. Let's first look at when pun-pun is at the pristine site. His presence in the past must not have affected the soil (for the purposes of the spell) else it would fail. This is easy to explain if you subscribe to my time theory. Teleport through time changes the reference frame of the caster, setting his apparent time equal to an objective time somewhere in the past**. This must be so because else he would change the objective time and the whole world would be cast into the past. If he set the objective time of the world equal to some time before his existance he would not exist. Thus to ensure that the caster may exist at any point in time, as the spell suggests, then the caster must only affect his apparent time frame.So why was not the soil disturbed by the future pun-pun who went into the past where the present pun-pun is trying to cast the spell? Well if you believe that teleport through time affects his apparent frame then the whole thing is just a sequence. To pun-pun he cast the spell at a pristine location, then he arrived in the past. Only the relationship between his frame and the objective frame skips around. Now let's change reference frames to the Terminator. The Terminator is now regressing time and arrives at round 2 (where pun-pun is casting the spell). For any round after 2 pun-pun is in the past, but when the terminator arrives at the round which propelled him into the past those actions are undone. In fact pun-pun returns to the Terminators reference frame as soon as the Terminator reaches round 2 in his regressions. Why? Because up until that point, pun-pun existed in the Terminator's apparent frame, after which he abruptly disappeared into the past. *Exhales* Whew... that's a bit of brain work. Now onto the anti-magic field business.... If portal were made into an intelligent item (and therefore into a construct), then what exactly constitutes the creature? Is it simply the frame? As we know, the frame is the only physical portion of the portal, the portal itself is... intangible? (I need to look that up). The portal is obviously magical in nature and in the field which is created by a collosus "suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area." This means that while the creature of the portal would not be disable itself, it's functionality would be, as it is magical in nature. 1.) Antimagic field is an emanation that means if the creature is enclose inside a container (which is possible without entering the creatures square or within the creatures reach even more so when one considers how fast pun pun can move) Then its a simmple heave ho to toss the container through the Awaiting portal, or of course encase the container in quintessence. [Edit] Ok I get it now... just needed to read it aloud for some reason. Hmm so you're saying construct a big box around the Terminator and the 4 gods that surround him. Then heave this box through a portal or bury it in quintessence. Well the quintessence bit is easily solved: My gods are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, not to mention the fact that they are deities and thus cannot be "imprisoned or banished." Since temporal stasis is among the example spells that they list I believe that deities are also immune to quintessence. Now the Terminator may or may not be affected... I should probably just turn him into a god... but I really would like to avoid that for stylistic reasons. I'll have to research this a bit further. As for throwing the box into a portal... I don't think that's legal without somehow giving those inside the box an opposing check. It would be a house-ruled kind of thing if it ever were to happen in a real campaign.
Tempest Stormwind 04-01-06, 12:54 AM	It's late for me, and I think I've had one too many, so I'm pretty sure I can't add much to this right now, but the thought of shutting four deities and the Terminator in a box and then heaving it through a portal or quintessence, and then pondering the consequences, seems remarkably similar to Schrödinger's Cat. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrodinger%27s_cat) Precisely what this is saying about the complexity of any plan to defeat Pun-Pun is left as an exercise to the reader.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-01-06, 01:09 AM	Well, if I made the Terminator into a god most of the shrodinger wave equation would cease to be a mixed state (in the case of putting the box in quintessence) as the only possibility would be that the Terminator is unaffected. I'm not really sure what to do with this new tactic... it's rather befuddling... well, it's not entirely new... it's just that when I took the Terminator off his special plane it became an issue again.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-01-06, 03:59 AM	Heh. Random thought of the day... err early morning. What if the Terminator were caught in a loop of portals. Say one portal randomly leads to 4 others, which lead back to the other four randomly and all of these would be paired such that going through one would necessarily cause you to go through another. The result: The Terminator gains an uncertain location. The complexity of this uncertainty would simply be a function of the number of linked portals. He would essentially become a huge probability density function. Assuming the dice aren't weighted, the density should fairly uniform, assuming a symmetric distribution of portals. This would be perfect for the first incarnation of the Terminator who tried to hide from Pun-Pun. However, I'm not sure how to make these portals immune to the attacks of Pun-Pun... as we're finding portals are rather easy to disable. Just thought I'd let y'all stew over that one... especially since the limited audience of this thread seems to like things like the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle or schrodinger quantum mechanics.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-01-06, 09:05 PM	I re-read your post again Lokiyn. The answer to your literal interpretation of AMF is as follows: While the AMF may not affect the portal (if it were a golem or construct) it would suppress any magical effect that it produces. The effect that it produces is, of course, a teleportation effect, which is always magical or supernatural (to my knowledge). Similarily, I believe that a god or artifact that is in an antimagic field is not affected himself, but any effects they produce that do not act on their person would be supressed. Since a gate produces a magical effect that acts on the one who passes through it, it will be supressed and will not have effect. Finally, I just checked the FRCS. I needn't worry about a shadow-crafted portal, as it specifically states that antimagic fields do suppress the effects of shadow weave magic. So, the conclusion? While the portal itself may be unaffected by the AMF (assuming it is an intelligent portal), any magical effect that it produces will be supressed. Thus, the Terminator will not be ported to where-ever the portal should take him. Now for wrapping the Terminator in a box and throwing the box... If pun-pun lifted the box and carried it through a portal he would be putting the Terminator into his inventory... so to speak. I simply can't find any rules for that right now. My best bet is that picking up creatures, whether they are in a box or not, would require some sort of attack action. In this case, the Terminator and his gods would be immune to such an attack and moving the box would not be possible. If pun-pun threw the box, it woud become unattended and would not be eligeable for passage through a portal. As for burying the box in quintessence: The gods which encase the Terminator would not be affected and could simply walk out of the box, disintegrating everything in their path with their extraordinary disintegration effect (courtesy of an umbral blot).
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-08-06, 07:52 PM	More ponderings on the results of the box trick: Due to the disintegration aura of the deities no material really obstructs their movement. This may be interpreted to be something akin to setting the frictional force equal to zero. When encased the assumption made by Lokiyn is that the contents of the box will move with the box. This is not true, as we all know from experience and elementary physics. The contents (the Terminator) will move to the end of the box which corresponds to the direction opposite of the box's motion. Because there is no frictional force to oppose their motion they will be unnaffected by the movement of the box and their momentum will remain zero with respect to the lab frame. This means that thought the box moves, they will not. (Hence they will appear to move towards the end of the box from the box's frame of reference). Now if the portal were moved instead of the box... the story changes. I'm not sure how to interpret that. I know at least that this fact is not a violation of Relativity because in order for all three frames to be compared they must all be inertial, but clearly one of the frames (box or portal) will have some initial acceleration, however minute, that will make it a non-inertial frame. Ah the technicalities of relativity...
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-10-06, 05:14 AM	So I'm just talking to myself apparently, but that's nothing new to me. :rolleyes: Anways, I've come full circle, yet again with the Terminator design. The whole make a box around the Terminator and then bury it in quintessence or throw it through a portal is rather annoying. So I'm going to fall back on the planar traits trick, but with a bit of a twist. The Planeshifter Prestige class from the Manual of the Planes will now be employed to create a demiplane. I'll need to take leadership at some point to acquire this Planeshifter cohort. The cohort will be ever so kind and will create his demiplane for the Terminator. The demiplane will be a self-contained perfectly smooth sphere of air with radius 200 feet. There will be no ground and the gravity will be subjective. god_1 through god_4 (along with the Terminator who is inside of god_1 will enter this demi-plane through the single portal that it serves as its access point. The cohort will follow along. They'll all squeeze into this space via squeezing rules (as god_1 is pretty big). The cohort will close the access portal (he can do this) and then the Terminator will kill him. This stops the growth of the plane. Now gods 1-4 assume their positions. God_1 transforms into a giant ball of iron (he can turn into an object via true shapechange). As per true shapechange he acquires the extraordinary traits of his new form, but retains his former extraordinary traits, mental stats, spells, spell-like abilities, but not his su abilities. He also retains his type, so that he is not considered an object, even though he is transformed into one. I'm not really sure what happens to the Terminator at this point, because the deity still has the swallow whole ability and the Terminator would still be swallowed. If need be he can turn into a thick walled hollow sphere with enough space to comfortably accomodate the Terminator. Regardless, the Terminator is still inside of god_1 and no one can enter another creature (to my knowledge) without some form of drastic attack. In order to accomodate gods_2, 3, and 4 god_1 creates 3 small dimples on his surface. gods_2, 3, and 4 then nest in these dimples as identical chunks of metal which fill the dimple. Basically we have a giant ball of metal that exudes an extraordinary antimagic field in the infintesimal space between the plane and god_1. Finally god_1 declares this demi-plane his godly realm. What does this solve? Well for one you can't exactly fit a whole lot in the plane. Anything that will fit must be of thickness "dx" and that small space dx is occupied by an AMF. The magical effects of quintessence won't function in an AMF and neither will a portal. The demi-plane cannot be expanded, because the creator was killed. Basically the terminator wedges himself into a tight corner and stays there. How does he see out? Well the gods who surround him all have portfolios and godly senses. They keep him up to date. If stuff starts going down (like a pun-pun, some major celestial upheaval, etc) he regresses time and sets forth to fix it. Returning to his hole is easy enough: he simply planeshifts using a psychoportive effect (which for some reason doesn't require an astral connection to function). Heck to solve the problems of the multiverse he doesn't really even need to leave, he just needs to warn higher powers of the future and let them do the work. This is, of course, within the letter of the law of the Time Regression power. Furthermore, since the Terminator no longer fears dislodgement he no longer needs the shadow weave increasing his reliability. Oh and this is also nice :D : Some creatures break the above rules. A creature that completely fills the squares it occupies cannot be moved past, even with the Tumble skill or similar special abilities. Here is the possible list of pun-pun counters that I've dreamed up: 1. destroy the demi-plane 2. expand the demi-plane and then use a mobile portal trick Both counters are impossible so far as I know, but as I've learned: never say never with pun-pun. The Terminator is basically turning into the flavor of the omnifiscer, though with less omniscience and omnipotence. He exists to maintain cosmic balance and he does his job without resorting to DM fiat. In any normal campaign with a "sane DM" Ao would suffice to fill the Terminator or Omnificer's role. But alas, here on the CO boards one man's sane DM is another man's insane DM. Anyways, I hope you all enjoyed this attempt to control the pun-pun menace without gaining infinite power in the process (though his power is quite epic). Sure it's not as "smooth" as the omnificer, but it gets the job done... after a fashion.
Kresalak 04-11-06, 01:33 AM	Couldn't Pun-Pun ressurect the cohort so that the demiplane could expand?
bomaz 04-11-06, 04:11 AM	only willing. however he could find the petitioner and "convince" it to be willing so probably
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-11-06, 11:14 PM	Solution: Trap the Soul. I'll just hang on to the gem. :D (the effect is not supressed in an AMF or dead magic zone either...) Trap the soul forces a creature’s life force (and its material body) into a gem. The gem holds the trapped entity indefinitely or until the gem is broken and the life force is released, which allows the material body to reform. If the trapped creature is a powerful creature from another plane it can be required to perform a service immediately upon being freed. Otherwise, the creature can go free once the gem imprisoning it is broken. Ya can't resurrect a trapped soul, the only way is to smash the crystal. Which of course means that you need to get that crystal out of my dead, lifeless hands. (This isn't going to happen any time soon either).
deathwishjoe 05-03-06, 04:53 AM	ok first this is not deathwishjoe its a friend of his but feal free 2 respond and i will read it through him. ok anyway anybody who doesnt read the dragonlance books wouldnt now about this but theres a magic item in the dragonlance campaign setting that can pull a person from the time space continuem droping them any time or place that they set it 2. if u didnt decide 2 kill punpun until after using the epic item u would be outside the time space continuem and therefore outside the range of omniscience. secondly if u think logically about the thought of punpuns creation it could never happen. and heres the reasoning by my thoughts. for everything there is something greater. so therefore for every lvl of god (portfolio and divine lvls wise) there is a higher lvl.and the reason i say this is that the timespace continuem in quantum physics theory is infinite. therefore a god (or someone who ascended 2 god status) could have done so an infinite time before punpuns existence. by being this old he would by definition he would have an infinite amount of time before punpuns creation 2 continue ascending divine lvls. now thes gods would be insanely gaurded of the position and status they holdand would work all the time actively 2 make sure that anygods who try 2 continue 2 ascend would be stopped. which is entirely based on the thought that sharing a portfolio would destroy some of your divine power because your divine rank is based directly on belief. in so attempting 2 protect there particular divine rank would have stopped any and all attempts by anyone (including in this case punpuns creation) 2 raise there divine rank. these specific uber gods would actively destroy punpun 4 this reason. and in this case there would be a certain uber god who was omniscience who would take offence 2 the creation of the abomination that is punpun and prevent it before it happened. by placing punpun in a permanent stasis affect long before he ever had his cool abilities there by eliminating the grandefather clause fom the loop as well as time travel itself and punpun would still exist but would never atain his advanced form and would be just a kobold in stasis and therefore could never time travel back 2 fix the original problem of the stasis. im sorry this is kinda jumbled and not really in order but i did it in a hurry so i wouldnt lose my train of thought. i think both of these ways could conceivably work please give feedback. tks Elbryan Nightbird
Tleilaxu_Ghola 05-03-06, 10:40 PM	Wow... just when I thought this thread was dead. Um, ok. I'm fairly confident the current version is adequate to solve any and every threat that pun-pun could pose. To this date I have yet to find any ability that forces the destruction or expansion of another demi-plane, particularily one NOT created by psionic, arcane, or divine genesis spells. Given that the terminator is basically now a tightly contained cyst in the multiverse who is completely invulnerable to all forms of damage and is unaffected by antimagic, dead magic, or the like, I believe this thread to finally be a sucess. Of course, no one has really presented a proper counter in quite some time... Anyways, if you'll read my time theory thread, which was created almost for the expressed purpose of dealing with the seemingly paradoxical problems of this thread, one should be able determine the success or failure of time manipulation used in favor or against the Terminator. I have never heard of this item of which you speak, undoubtedly Lokiyn mentioned it, but I probably ignored it. The item could provide a problem for the Terminator, as pun-pun might use it to "terminate" the Terminator. Without knowledge of its exact function I cannot be sure. As for your other argument... it's not new. This thread recognizes the low probability that pun-pun has for success, given the nature of the gods and higher powers present in any cosmology. However, he is given the benefit of the doubt -- that is to say he is assumed to exist. The same is assumed of the Terminator.
Tempest Stormwind 05-03-06, 11:13 PM	TG: Just to finalize how this fits in with my well-established Bet*: The Terminator is probably the only build that could survive anything Pun-Pun could do. This is no small feat and worthy of all sorts of awards. Additionally, it has led to some truly interesting high-level optimization theory, in a way that no existing build has ever done in the past (say what you will about Pun-Pun, but he's a catalyst for creativity). However, its method of offense (as I understand it) does not involve defeating Pun-Pun at all, but rather defeating a few regular kobolds in the past. Additionally, because the time at which this attack occurs is not technically after Pun-Pun's 'ascension', there's a technicality issue as well. So, without any animosity, I congratulate you (and all contributors) on what's been done here, yet respectfully announce that the hat stays on my head. *If you're just tuning in, that Bet was this: "Show me a rules-legal method of defeating Pun-Pun after his ascension that does not rely on DM fiat, and I will eat my hat on camera." It's a large, black, wide-brimmed hat, and I'm very fond of it. This bet is here to symbolize my desire to see Pun-Pun toppled.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 05-04-06, 12:16 AM	Your hat will remain on its head until a fool proof no-ship is devised. This has long been my desire to design, but alas I have yet to conceive a truely invulnerable and truely perfect no-ship. (If you don't know what the phrase "no ship" means, I strongly recommend that you read the second dune trilogy immediately. Drop everything you are doing and read it.) Anyways, until some broken mechanic is issued forth which either makes it impossible or see (or both) the opposing force, your hat will remain firmly upon its head Tempest Stormwind. Furthermore, given the currently INFINITE statistics that pun-pun has recently acquired, it will be difficult to destroy him even with a purely damaging effect. What is necessary is an extraordinary death effect that has no saving throw or SR. One solution that I thought would be funny is to somehow become invulnerable (like the Terminator) but to do so within a no-ship (yet to be invented) and then approach Pun-Pun and somehow throw the both of them into an iterative time loop (as described by Lokiyn on the CPC thread.) The trick is to localize this iterative time loop such that it does not affect the rest of the multiverse. Then this "suicidal" Neo-Terminator will have trapped Pun-Pun forever, whilst the rest of the multiverse progesses on its merry way. Two ingrediants are needed for this trick that have yet to be developed: 1. localized time iteration (we know how to do unlocalized time iteration) 2. The no-ship (no real progress yet) The best design I've created to date is an infinite network of mutually linked random portals located in the far-realms. Since portals use the astral plane to transport the person who is traveling in this infinite looping network will appear (from the perspective of the multiverse) to have not only an inconstistant location but an inconstistant time. The result: since we have now randomized the person's location and time to an arbitrary amount we can say that the schrodinger wave equation which describes his space-time coordinates (we approximate the person to be a point-like particle) has expanded to fill an entirely infinite plane. This has the effect of making it mathematically impossible to predict his location/time. Alternatively, we could cool the person to such a great extent that his constituent atoms begin to expand. I'm not sure if there is an upper limit on the size of a bose-einstein condensate though... haven't really covered much of that in my classes. The trouble is this: 1. Pun-Pun can destroy the apparatus 2. While the person's location/time is unknown to pun-pun, the location of each gate is, making it a simple game of take down the gates
Tempest Stormwind 05-04-06, 01:11 AM	I'm familiar somewhat with a no-ship design, although I couldn't get through Heretics of Dune myself (interest sort of faded; God-Emperor really took a lot out of me. I really enjoyed the first book, but I couldn't keep it up through Heretics). I will get around to it one of these days. Still, I love what this direction of thought is leading to. What else is more heroic than defeating an undefeatable foe by "sealing it away" through heroic self-sacrifice and an endless struggle of immortals locked in epic battle? Damn, does this scream "Powergamer Power Metal Ballad" to anyone else, or is that just me? ;) Hmm.... if I weren't so busy with MADNESS! I'd see what I could do on the no-ship, either through the proposed architecture or a completely new one.
Lokiyn 05-05-06, 01:21 AM	Well an option i proposed on the pun pun thread is to lure pun pun to the plane of mirrors (using specially crafted mirrors*) and then shatter the mirrors simultaneously. Advantage, No way out** Nega Pun Pun Disadvantage, doesn't work well. * Same crafter, Same Source material, Same shape, Same time of creation to ensure all the mirrors are linked so that only they allow access. ** Well Planar breach would, fairly certain there are no astral links on the plane of mirrors. But hopefully nega pun pun will keep him busy. On the other hand if nega pun escapes we are in a world of trouble. Although incorporeal pun pun can still slip into the cyst.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 05-05-06, 03:15 AM	An incorporeal creature cannot share the same space as an enemy, just as any creature cannot unless he can tumble into that space or enter that space through a similar ability. However, the current protection of the Terminator is the following clause: Designated Exceptions Some creatures break the above rules. A creature that completely fills the squares it occupies cannot be moved past, even with the Tumble skill or similar special abilities. Technicality? Yes. Combat in D&D is measured in 5' squares. Since the god which surrounds the Terminator may be of nearly any size by virtue of the fact that he can transform into any object of any size (extraordinarily), he can in fact completely fill the squares that he occupies. The three orbiting gods have assumed objects of width 5' and are molded over the god which encircles the Terminator such that each of the three "orbital" gods completely fills the spaces that remain in the plane and such that each covers precisely 1/3 of the surface area of the god which encircles the Terminator. The whole ensemble resembles a cube with two layers. The space that remains unfilled in the plane is of width dx (in the limit that dx -> 0). What little space this provides, is filled with an extraordinary anti-magic field. The orbital gods are immune to all forms of damage, attack, magic, supernatural effects, all energy types, all forms of entrapment, mental effects, blah, blah, blah. Basically it's impossible to enter the plane, as there is not any spaces which are available to fill. Also, since the inner god (surrounding the Terminator) has declared this pocket dimension his godly realm, he has closed all astral connections to the plane. This prevents conjuration (teleportation) spells such as precipate planar breach from functioning. So, yeah. I don't think it can become any more armor clad than that. After reading the incorporeal subtype I find no evidence that an incorporeal creature may enter the square of another creature. This is true for objects, but not creatures. Since the gods retain their outsider type among many other things as per True Shapechange they aren't really objects so much as creatures in the form of an object. Now that's cleared up... on to tackling these new ideas. Hmmm... the plane of mirrors. An interesting idea, but I'm not sure I like the style of "luring" pun-pun. Here's an interesting "no-ship" design. And it's really quite simple. We create a demi-plane with a permanent planar bubble which emulates the far-realms's time trait. Since the plane is now technically "outside" of time, no matter how far a deity's portfolio sense extends, it will not enter the time zone of the far-realm. If pun-pun were on the far-realm, it's time zone would not necessarily be the same (or even related to) this demi-plane's time, as the demi-plane merely emulates the far-realm. I've yet to figure out how to evade the observatorium though.
Lokiyn 05-06-06, 01:06 AM	Have you covered non standard means of transportation? In other words transportation effects that use alternative media as transport. For example A Gate (as a conjuration effect can have a destination in an antimagic field) which opens up the gods to assault, or allows other possibilities. More so a non standard attack is capable of reaching into the dreams of the terminator and terminating him that way. (Check out manual of the planes, Lucid Dreaming is the one skill that allows commoners to go toe to toe with most of dnd)
Tleilaxu_Ghola 05-07-06, 11:13 AM	Bottom line is this: you cannot arrive in a square which is occupied. Since there are no unoccupied squares in this plane you would not be able to enter it. Due to the solid nature of the creatures which surround the Terminator, no one can share their squares no matter how small they are. I my knowledge you cannot end a move (of any type... not just move actions) in the square of another creature unless you are a swarm. But then again, being a swarm still won't cut it because you still must be able to move past the creature to enter its square. You simply cannot move past the Terminator. It's a bit of a grey area admittedly (not all teleportation/transportation effects contain the "unnoccupied space" clause), but by precedence my interpretation make sense. Even logically, one must ask themselves: what square do I end up in at the end of this effect. Since you cannot occupy the same square as the Terminator, you must conclude that you cannot enter the plane he is on (since he consumes the whole plane). Edit: Just checked the dreamscape stuff. I don't see how it would affect the Terminator. He's immune to the spell and immune to any grapple attempt that would be associated with a lucid dreaming check. Did I miss something (as usual)?
Lokiyn 05-08-06, 11:57 AM	Not much, i'm just in the pondering mode at the min, Trying to get the cascade bomb into a more viable concept. Lucid Dreaming is a wonderful skill that allows you to enter a persons dream as a (ex) or (nat) ability the ability to alter the dreamscapes and personal form is wonderful for getting people to lower thier guard so you can shunt them into the physical dream scape, while at high levels of optimization its pointless due to people easily making the wake up check, in most games its possible for a commoner to drag that low wisdom mage into the dreamscape and fry his aetheric self leaving a dead corpse in a bed with no signs of struggle or entry. i mentioned gates because of a few quirks in a gate. First off the destination doesn't have to be able to support magic, the source area does and the creation tag ensures that the other end remains open. Second you can open a gate at the edge of a square, which means the gate could open up at the very edge of the demiplane not in the square but on the boundry between one square and the next, which opens up the plug to koboldy retribution. ... and off to study for finals... ...oooh I just realized that the monster with the time ability that lets you go back a round actually physically places you back a round, pushing your future self into the past while erasing your past self.... hmmm must look at ability closer....
Tleilaxu_Ghola 05-08-06, 04:22 PM	Assuming you're talking about the Horrific Vasuthant from MM3: Alter Past (su): As a free action, a horrific vasuthant can produce a rift in time that enables it to replay its last turn. The vasuthant returns to the position it occupied when its turn begain, and any effects that occured during that time are reversed (including any readied actions or attacks of opportunity that its actions provoked). If it used any spell-like abilities, it regains the daily uses spent. A horrific vasuthant can use this ability three times per day, but no more than once per round. I don't see where it says that the future version replaces the past version. It is worded rather weird, but this much is clear: any buffing that might have taken place in the previous round by Pun-Pun would be undone. By strict reading of the rules, he would only retain daily uses of spell-like abilities spent. It doesn't say that he would regain any spell-like abilities that he suddenly gained in the previous round. So basically if he were able to break the 3/day thing (which is pretty easy), he would go back in time arbitrarily far, but at one point he would lose all his abilities including manipulate form as that would have been an effect that would be reversed. Actually he would never reach this point because somewhere along the line he would reversed the effect which granted him this ability. I should really get back to studying myself...
Tleilaxu_Ghola 06-15-06, 06:59 PM	bumpity bump. I haven't really thought about this guy for a while. With all the new stuff coming out, has anyone found a means to utterly mask their location from anything? Stong wording is what I would need. (I'm just trying to see if a "no-ship" is possible yet)
bomaz 06-16-06, 01:08 AM	someone cited this line from time stop in a thread "You are undetectable while timestop lasts"
Tleilaxu_Ghola 06-18-06, 05:01 PM	Interesting... I don't know why I hadn't thought of this before. The trouble is this: we need to be able to create this time-stop area such that multiple people have access to it, but also such that the entry is controlled utterly. I think that if one were to develop an endless timestop that one could then use this time to mount an assault on pun-pun. So while this would enable the Terminator to launch his attack without pre-preparation, it would not remove the need to be older than pun-pun. I think the best means to obtaining this ultimate timestop would be to use temporal reiteration and an infinite pp combo. Right now, I think that the following trick is to somehow defend against the inevitable spell-pocket trick. The only defense I can think of is somehow placing oneself in an extradimensional space that does not have enough room for pun-pun to also be there. Secret Chest might do the trick.
Tempest Stormwind 07-03-06, 01:38 AM	I'm cross-posting this here to help rekindle the effort. I think we may have the wedge we need. It was a Eureka! moment just a minute ago, inspired by TG bringing up the nuances of both established methods of time travel (Teleport through Time and Time Hop/Regression). Read this. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9535497&postcount=230) I've discovered both a blind spot and a weak spot in Pun-Pun that he cannot close without destroying himself or breaking the rules. In fact, if Khan is right, then he cannot even detect it (well, he MIGHT, but it won't matter). If this is done correctly, we don't even need a no-ship, because time itself becomes the no-ship. We have a window of a few years plus about 32 days in which we are undetectable and he is powerless to stop us. This assumes the strictest reading of Teleport through Time, though -- it will only operate if he has to Time Hop the moment he's born, and not the moment of his ascension. Still, it's a start. EDIT: I should note that simply using this window to deliver the killing blow is NOT going to work for the purposes of my bet (eating my hat on camera), since it's effectively killing a low-level kobold (still). However, it can give you all the prep time you need to assemble whatever doomsday device you need to defeat him post-ascension. EDIT 2: God, I'm such an idiot. I forgot that during his initial timeleap to the past, he could very well have been seeding the universe with clones (not to mention creating his divine realm). These clones won't be bound by the same restrictions -- in fact, in theory, if Pun-Pun created a perfect clone of himself at the dawn of time and then killed himself, the clone could regress time to any point where time was defined, thus circumventing the need for Teleport through Time completely. On a side note, this would be the wisest course of action for Pun-Pun. All is not lost, however. Using the massive Time Hop / regression trick for viewing the future has its drawback that I missed earlier: Since he approaches time backwards, the future he views will be one where he doesn't exist. Thus, any actual future won't match with the future he views, unless he spends all of his time in an inaccessable domain (similar to wherever Ao is in the FR cosmology). Thus, either Pun-Pun sequesters himself until he needs to act (and the universe is effectively without Pun-Pun for that time), or he doesn't have the perfect prescience I thought he did. Sorry for the false alarms. Still, so long as Pun-Pun doesn't clone himself (if he exists in the singular), we don't need a no-ship. That's gotta count for something.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 07-04-06, 01:22 AM	Don't ya just hate it when that happens, TS? False "eurekas" happened to me all the freaking time in this thread, so I wouldn't let it discourage you. Although... *rubs hands* I do believe that this discussion has sparked a tasty little way to get around the only assumption which withholds the crown of true victory from the Terminator. All we need to do is find a way to cast teleport through time at level 4. Call it the temporal omnificer build. We would be guaranteed to go back in time *first* and we would then be able to set up a terminator *first*. It's a bit of a tall order, but how hard can it be to cast a 9th level spell at fourth level? Hmm... could DisposableHero's miracle at 6th level trick be streamlined at all? Anyways, the basic idea is this -- once I get the kinks worked out: 1. Teleport through time at 4th level to the dawn of time. 2. Throw up a time stop 3. Create the Terminator in the Time Stop 4. Brush off hands and pat self on back for ensuring order and balance for the multiverse.
Lokiyn 07-04-06, 11:13 PM	As an aside. Wasn't there an ability that let one break through the wrong side of a one way portal, or an ability that allowed one to go through a one way portal an d leave a tether ro go back through? Anywhay much much earlier we had debated on utilizing natural portals to escape to the beginning of time. If i can find an ability that allows one to slip through a one way, then pun pun could naturally leave the time steam (time hop to the end of time) and reenter (far realm portal at the beginning of time) Avoiding the dm fiat clause in teleport through time, allowing him the ability to safely defend himself, in addition if he made a clone (rather than Clone) outside in the far realm and entered with it the clones time stream relation starts at the beginning and would be unaffected by erasing parts of time. back to work....
Tleilaxu_Ghola 07-05-06, 07:16 PM	Curse you and your portal knowledge Lokiyn! I still contend the following: 1. Entering the far-realms places you at some undetermined time in the far-realms. Since the far-realm's time is not in synch with the Toril time and there is no explicit statement of what time you enter in the far-realm time, then how can we assume that we know what time one will arrive at in the far-realms? 2. Time on the far-realms consumes no time on Toril, thus when one re-enters from the far-realm -- regardless of how much time has advanced there -- one still arrives back in the same round they left. This means even if you advanced to the end of time an landed in the far-realms you would still arrive back in the same round at the same time on Toril if you were to return there.
Khan the Destroyer 07-06-06, 03:38 AM	Ok, here's where I am lost. This is the relevant text from the Teleport Through Time spell... Special Note: The introduction of time travel into any campaign can be fraught with peril, so tread carefully. Players will wonder how much they can mess with the timeline, and you may run into instances of the grandfather paradox. Further, changes made very far back in time cannot really be worked out completely because of the chaotic aspect of events. Thus, it is simplest to use the rule that changes in time are minor and somehow time smooths them out. This argues for a determinism and predestination in the ways of your world, but you can say that once events have transpired, small perturbations are possible (this person lives rather than dies, but does not contribute to events in a meaningful way), but the large-scale events themselves somehow happen anyway. If the cause is changed, another cause comes along. In the case of someone killing their own grandfather, the PC might find that he is the same but has a different family when returning to the present. As long as you keep the knowledge of how to travel in time restricted, your campaign will not fall apart. Emphasis mine. So, this is a special note for DM's in how to deal with Time Travel in their games. It suggests using the rule that the time stream eventually corrects any changes made in the past. Where I am confused is... how does this ruling for determinism/predestination only apply to this spell? It is referring to time travel, and suggests a rule that affects the DM's world. So, for the sake of consistency, anytime someone made a radical change in the past, it would correct itself. Otherwise, why would the time stream correct itself in one instance, and not the other? What am I missing?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 07-06-06, 03:45 PM	Because time regression works completely differently. Unlike teleport through time, which can insert events into the past, time regression completely erases the past and replaces it with a new one. The clause which I oft refer to in teleport through time basically says that the events you insert into the past won't change the course of history on the large scale. So teleport through time is pretty much useless for anyone trying to affect cosmic politics and the balance of the multiverse. Time regression on the other hand is tailor made for such a goal.
Oppo28 10-21-06, 10:59 PM	I read your original post and when I read "all intensive purposes" I nearly laughed as it is actually "all intents and purposes." You lost all respect right there. Truly I believe this is an ingenious build but it's the little things that make the ladder fall. For the fact alone that you messed up this saying, I assume that elsewhere in the build there is some kind of minute error. Otherwise, I love both the build and the name. Still I hold the record for the most builds by one person that defeat Pun-Pun. (Pwn-Pwn and Frank Zappa). Good day.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 10-22-06, 12:39 AM	Ha. I edited the OP. If it weren't for you I'd probably still say "intensive purposes". Seems silly when I look back on it now.
The_Mad_Linguist 10-22-06, 12:39 PM	Of course, they are truly infinite now, so you might as well cut out that clause entirely.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 10-22-06, 02:25 PM	I may as well add to the top: "This build has been retired. " It's a build that was based on an older version of pun-pun and thus just can't compete anymore. The as of yet not-fully-formulated neo-terminator build will attempt to remedy that, but it's run into several technical difficulties. Like the Omniscificer, this build is too static in nature to keep up with the evolving pun-pun challenge.
The_Mad_Linguist 10-22-06, 05:16 PM	I may as well add to the top: "This build has been retired. " It's a build that was based on an older version of pun-pun and thus just can't compete anymore. The as of yet not-fully-formulated neo-terminator build will attempt to remedy that, but it's run into several technical difficulties. Like the Omniscificer, this build is too static in nature to keep up with the evolving pun-pun challenge. Yeah... I was kind of wondering how you pull off section 1. Seems like Pun-Pun would kill off anyone else who used the ice assassin cheese. Or anyone else who tried to attain invincibility, regardless of method.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 10-22-06, 08:27 PM	It's important to note that this build ASSUMES that the terminator existed (and ascended) before pun-pun. That was how I justified section 1 from the beginning. It was always an unsatisfactory assumption, but I figured that we should go in baby steps towards the solution. First make an assumption, then try and remove it later once more theory was developed. I found a way to remove that assumption in the neo-terminator, but there are many many technical bugs left in the design. Once, if ever, I work those out I'll post it.
Kresalak 10-22-06, 10:03 PM	Why not post it and get our help to develope it?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 10-23-06, 12:00 AM	Why not post it and get our help to develope it? I have... over various threads. They are not easy problems. If you look at the "theoretical section" of my sig you find the Temporal Workshop and the Monty thread by psly4mne. In both of those threads I discuss the neo-terminator method at length. But while I'm here, why not give the laundry list of technical and theoretical problems that I'm coming across: Need a way to clone myself with a buff active. In otherwords I need a way to create a creature that is in a timestop when created. This creature must be able to use several important magic items. Need a way to definatively beat the infinite spamming of mini-Montys and micro-Montys... you need to read the thread to understand... Need a good & RAW way to cast an infinite number of time regressions without assuming that I was psionically focused in the previous round. An infinite action loop without the aid of another person would be nice. (So far the plan is to use Crusader + White Raven Tactics, but other ideas would be nice). Need infinite damage loop without aid of another person. (So far the plan is to use the cheesy trick I list on the ToB tricks thread. I believe it is cheesy trick #2.) Somehow avoid comparison of infinities. (again see Monty thread) The grand plan: Create a "game" in which the person who goes second always wins. I will now assume that I "go second." In the original terminator thread I assume that "I go first".
Khan the Destroyer 10-23-06, 01:03 AM	Sorry guys, but the Terminator isn't around anymore. He has moved to politics. Pun-Pun is no longer threatened, unless he's living in California. I know, I wish it weren't so. Oh well. :P
Kresalak 10-23-06, 01:29 PM	He is now the Governator.
Khan the Destroyer 10-23-06, 01:34 PM	You're right. If TG works in some President of Smack with his Terminator build, and renames it the Governator, Pun-Pun might just throw in the towel.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 10-23-06, 02:09 PM	That is a distinct possibility, Khan. I have plans to incorporate a few levels of crusader. The weapon of choice could very well be claws... and since I'll be making infinite attacks, I'd say that qualifies as a lot of smack down. Mind you these infinite attacks are against myself... I'd never dream of hitting pun-pun.
Toptomcat 11-06-06, 02:27 PM	The phrase "temporary god" is too funny for words.
HaikenEdge 11-06-06, 10:55 PM	We've had the President of Smack and the King of Smack... I assume that this build will be called "the Governator: The Governor of Smack"?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-06-06, 11:30 PM	We've had the President of Smack and the King of Smack... I assume that this build will be called "the Governator: The Governor of Smack"? The new build, when and if I EVER figure out the technical problems, will be called the neo-terminator.
Psionx 03-26-07, 03:39 PM	I'm on page 4 and this is fascinating, but the absolute reason why pun-pun cannot fill the entire universe is because it isn't just one infinity, its multiple infinities as in there are multiple planes which are infinite and pun-pun can go infinite on 1 but not on all I'm guessing. I was also thinking that pun could make a copy of himself for each infinite plane, however, there are technically infinite infinite planes (the abyss) surprisingly enough this is infinity^2. So he must create infinite copies of himself and each of those must create infinite copies of itself. Who knows, this may actually be possible, but there is a single question, how does pun pun make those copies move? And yet another, can't he only have 1 fission in existence at a time?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-26-07, 07:06 PM	I'm on page 4 and this is fascinating, but the absolute reason why pun-pun cannot fill the entire universe is because it isn't just one infinity, its multiple infinities as in there are multiple planes which are infinite and pun-pun can go infinite on 1 but not on all I'm guessing. I was also thinking that pun could make a copy of himself for each infinite plane, however, there are technically infinite infinite planes (the abyss) surprisingly enough this is infinity^2. So he must create infinite copies of himself and each of those must create infinite copies of itself. Who knows, this may actually be possible, but there is a single question, how does pun pun make those copies move? And yet another, can't he only have 1 fission in existence at a time? A poor, misguided soul I was back in the day. The current theory (I say theory because I'm still not 100% sure if its right) on the comparison of "static" infinities to "dynamic" infinities is that they can be equal. Static infinities would be like saying, "the plane is infinite". Dynamic infinities is like saying, "This loop deals X damage per iteration and is continued for infinite iterations such that the sum is infinite." Perhaps it's a useless distinction, but the reason I make it is because one can be modelled and compared with simple limits and the other cannot. Since we do not know how fast space diverges in D&D we cannot really make a comparison between it and products of infinite loops. In the absence of clear cut limit calculations, we enter the hazy (at least for me) realm of Set Theory to describe just how "big" an infinity is. As far as I know the debate (at least within my head) rages on whether or not one can ever produce an infinity in D&D greater than Aleph-0. The other question is also: Is space Aleph-0 or greater? Who knows? As to your more simple question about Fission. Check my signature for "Legion". It's a technique that Pun-Pun could easily employ to instantly generate an infinite number of identical clones.
Think0028 03-26-07, 07:43 PM	T_G: Supposing real-world physics, proving that the size of the universe is aleph-naught is (at least, I think) child's play. Everything is composed of quarks at minimum, right? So we definitely have an whole number of quarks, since they're unsplittable. Oh look, the whole numbers number aleph-naught. Did I mess up, or was this easy?
awaken_D_M_golem 03-26-07, 07:51 PM	As far as I know the debate (at least in my head) rages on whether or not ... heh , so I'm not the only one :D I would think an Infinite Knowledge check would let you know about Aleph-one or two in D&D. Prolly also whether that Knowledge will get erased by Termi-sly4m-nastics. { umm ... the 4 is silent } Do you think Khan really knows what Pun-pun does , while he's sleeping ?! ( ... while Pun's sleeping , while Khan's sleeping , either way ... ) Blingy thinks of new patterns for the Hive to buzz around in.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-27-07, 02:55 AM	T_G: Supposing real-world physics, proving that the size of the universe is aleph-naught is (at least, I think) child's play. Everything is composed of quarks at minimum, right? So we definitely have an whole number of quarks, since they're unsplittable. Oh look, the whole numbers number aleph-naught. Did I mess up, or was this easy? Yeah, except one problem: extra dimentional space. Who knows how many layers there are to reality in D&D. There may be infinite dimensions of reality stacked on top of eachother. That's why I hesitate to state its cardinality. I just assume, for the sake of sanity, that infinity is infinity is infinity. Otherwise the best comparison method I got is comparing the rate of divergence.
The_Mad_Linguist 03-27-07, 10:03 AM	Yeah, except one problem: extra dimentional space. Who knows how many layers there are to reality in D&D. There may be infinite dimensions of reality stacked on top of eachother. That's why I hesitate to state its cardinality. I just assume, for the sake of sanity, that infinity is infinity is infinity. Otherwise the best comparison method I got is comparing the rate of divergence. Isn't space measured in terms of squares, though? Even though there's height in inches in the rules, we're measuring the size of the world, so we only have to worry about the smallest units of size. I don't think you can split a square, (even though you can have multiple things within a square), so there should be a whole number of squares, so space is aleph0.
Psionx 03-27-07, 03:14 PM	Actually, since Pun-Pun isn't really infinite, and you really want to kill him, all you have to do is get within range of him with a fissioned duplicate of yourself, manifest affinity field twice and use the infinite bluff check provided by a near death experience to convince him that you are trying to give him infinite power points and deal damage to yourself. The damage will loop and he will die along with you.
Think0028 03-27-07, 03:22 PM	Actually, since Pun-Pun isn't really infinite, and you really want to kill him, all you have to do is get within range of him with a fissioned duplicate of yourself, manifest affinity field twice and use the infinite bluff check provided by a near death experience to convince him that you are trying to give him infinite power points and deal damage to yourself. The damage will loop and he will die along with you. Singular Enemy.
Psionx 03-27-07, 03:53 PM	Singular enemy meaning?
Think0028 03-27-07, 05:22 PM	Singular enemy meaning? The number one problem with anti-pun-pun builds. It's an ability of Aleaxes (god assassins). It says you can't be harmed except by your singular enemy. Pun-pun, naturally, names himself.
The_Mad_Linguist 03-27-07, 08:28 PM	And Pun-Pun is really infinite, anyway. Infinite damage loop -> all statistics -> all derived quantities.
Think0028 03-27-07, 11:47 PM	And I just realized that Pun-Pun could also give himself Singular Enemy (Bob) on top of Singular Enemy (Pun-Pun) thus causing severe oddness.
Aegeu 03-28-07, 11:33 AM	I thought that was covered already. Singular enemy implies a single person can harm him.
Psionx 03-28-07, 12:54 PM	ha, its great then that the fission power makes a duplicate of me so 2 people are harming him :P
The_Mad_Linguist 03-28-07, 03:56 PM	ha, its great then that the fission power makes a duplicate of me so 2 people are harming him :P And only a SINGLE person can harm him. And since pun-pun's divine portfolio includes marriage, he can non-violently ensure nobody can hurt him.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-28-07, 05:14 PM	Thankfully singular enemy only prevents attacks against the person of Pun-Pun. Time Regression is targeted at the manifester... so we never actually need to attack pun-pun to perform a termination. This is, of course, only valid back when things were simpler and did not involve infinite clones occupying all of time, but not all of space*. Incidentally, Singular Enemy serves prove that my method of temporal erasure is probably the ONLY way to kill pun-pun post-ascention. *Wrap your mind around THAT one. (It's not too hard actually... but still. It's kinda like the whole 3-D rotation of 1/x^2 about the x-axis having infinite surface area but finite volume...)
Think0028 03-28-07, 05:23 PM	*Wrap your mind around THAT one. (It's not too hard actually... but still. It's kinda like the whole 3-D rotation of 1/x^2 about the x-axis having infinite surface area but finite volume...) I can easily wrap my head over the time one (as far as we know, we occupy no temporal volume, so having one at every temporal coordinate is easy), but this raises questions. Namely, how and what the heck?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-29-07, 03:35 AM	I can easily wrap my head over the time one (as far as we know, we occupy no temporal volume, so having one at every temporal coordinate is easy), but this raises questions. Namely, how and what the heck? Oh, it's pretty easy. Just use the Monty method to get your clones into position.
Think0028 03-29-07, 10:28 AM	Oh, it's pretty easy. Just use the Monty method to get your clones into position. No, by "this" I meant the infinite surface area/finite volume thing. I'm having a hard time picturing it. It occurs to me that when we start getting non-chalant about being able to access any point in time bar none with infinite accuracy, we have a slight power-overload on our hands.
Omen_of_Peace 05-14-08, 02:31 AM	I come very very late to this rather interesting thread, but what prevents Pun-Pun from having an Initiate of Mystra-like ability to cast in the dead magic zone ? And if even if he can't acquire it for some reason, he can carry a miniaturized Initiate who creates a Planar Bubble around them. With magic he should be able to reach the Terminator... edit: so many questions... how does Terminator manifest Time Regression in a dead magic zone ?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 05-18-08, 11:40 PM	I come very very late to this rather interesting thread, but what prevents Pun-Pun from having an Initiate of Mystra-like ability to cast in the dead magic zone ? And if even if he can't acquire it for some reason, he can carry a miniaturized Initiate who creates a Planar Bubble around them. With magic he should be able to reach the Terminator... edit: so many questions... how does Terminator manifest Time Regression in a dead magic zone ? It's probably been over a year or so since I've given this a second of thought, but I'm pretty sure he is able to manifest due to using the Shadow Weave, instead of the regular weave... or something like that. Anyways, the rest of the invulnerability stuff -- I honestly don't care anymore. I'm pretty sure that being able to cast anything at the terminator wouldn't matter much, because I built in so many damn redundancies. Don't give it too much thought. The terminator is a rusty, outdated piece of machinery now. Ironically, the neo-terminator development destroyed all hopes of ever defeating pun-pun.
teamfireyleader 05-29-08, 08:17 AM	Why don't you just ask (with a super high diplomacy bonus) a deity that was around at the time the kobold race was formed to just stop them from being formed? Dead Pun-Pun. Well non-existent Pun-Pun at least. Then kill suurusks (sp). Then Tiamat. You win.
awaken_D_M_golem 08-12-08, 08:11 PM	bump-o
BobVosh 08-12-08, 11:10 PM	I really couldn't read all 16 pages, so I've read only a few. Couldn't Pun-Pun just summon the guy out, using some sort of deity epic level spell and then beat down with his infinitely high attack which he automatically rolls 20s with?
Senevri 08-13-08, 03:28 PM	Why don't you just ask (with a super high diplomacy bonus) a deity that was around at the time the kobold race was formed to just stop them from being formed? Dead Pun-Pun. Well non-existent Pun-Pun at least. Then kill suurusks (sp). Then Tiamat. You win. Because Pun-pun got there first. he knows if you intend to attempt such a thing and then you're dead. Plus, he gets NI actions in the exact moment any god tries to kill any of his progenitors, since after coming to existance, he used temporal regression infinite times, and thus PP has existed since the start of time. Only way to catch Pun-pun is to defeat him the "first time round", just as he manifests ( as otherwise you're just defeating a venerable kobold, which doesn't count.)
satanicway 08-14-08, 05:23 PM	Just my opnion based on some supositions, if any of them are wrong please let me know. 1- Punpun can do infinite number of actions on a given turn. Is that correct? 2- To the merit of this discussion punpun have reached his all-might power state, them your character get know of him, and started his plan. 3- Punpun have infinite inteligence score, so he have infinite of all knowledge checks. That means he have infinite knowledge(planes) meaning that he simple knows every single plane, even the most hidden, obscure, or just created ones. Based on that, as soon as punpun reaches his overpowerness, hes unbeatable, even by your trick. As soon as punpun becomes infinite on intelligence, charism and wisdom, as well as all knowledges, he will KNOW every single way to be beaten. If he always wins initiative checks, his the first one to act "post ascencion", so in this turn, being first to act, he simple walks every square on all realms that exist, and kill every single thing that could post a threat to him, this includes every caster or psion that might one day cast this given spell, and destroy every single iten or artifact that might give someone a chanse against him. This all based on the fact that he can take infinite number of actions on a turn. If im wrong on this, them my point is invalid, and im sorry. But if he can in fact take any number of actions in a turn, and a turn consist in 6 secounds, that means he can walk the entire multplane any number of times, and do any number of things in six seconds. And he can as well, since he have knowledge (planes) infinite, know the exact time where the planes started to exist, and being the most uber deity he might create his deity realm with a time 1 turn = -time of start of multverse. Them he steps in, and in the next turn he steps out, and he will simple exist in the past. Since he will start altering everything to his like, and will have all the time of the universe to take all cares so no one in the multverse can walk back in time to unmake him. (if he can clone himself to fill the multverse, he can simple use alter reality to make all his clones as tiny as a microrganism and have them in bunchs on entire multiverse on every thing, just to check if everything is all right, and nothing can challenge him or ever cast a spell that walks back in time.)
ddm4377 10-24-08, 10:39 PM	Mass genocide of the kobolds before Pun-Pun comes to power. No more Pun-Pun's, ever.
Muertog 10-25-08, 01:34 AM	Mass genocide of the kobolds before Pun-Pun comes to power. No more Pun-Pun's, ever. Please, won't somebody think of the poor kobolds... :weep:
Senevri 10-25-08, 05:37 AM	1. Mass Genocide, harder than you'd think. 2. You don't need to be a kobold to become Pun-Pun, but it helps. Or alive, for that matter.
AncientDragon 10-25-08, 09:19 AM	Actually, I think that assuming that Pun-Pun is going to not-exist, then you have no matter to create this character and go back in time to kill his ancestors. This obviusly means that Pun-Pun *will* exist, 'coz no one has killed his ancestors, so you have a matter to make him not-existant, but this will lead to your not-willingness to go back in the past... Ok, I'm mad.
InnaBinder 10-25-08, 09:36 AM	Mass genocide of the kobolds before Pun-Pun comes to power. No more Pun-Pun's, ever. But...but... All those white dragonspawn venerable Kobold Sorcerers....
AncientDragon 10-25-08, 09:46 AM	If they don't exist, you can't complain 'em.
Muertog 10-25-08, 12:49 PM	1. Mass Genocide, harder than you'd think. No it isn't... just need a blessed scroll of genocide.