Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-19-08, 11:52 PM	Alright guys, we've done it all. We've developed the concept of character ascension, whereby a character assumes god-like or super-god-like statistics. We've figured out how to bend time and space, as D&D knows it, to our very whims. The generality of the tricks used to accomplish these lofty theoretical goals has left little else to do. Any other challenge can be tackled generally by either Pun-Pun or another ascended character like the Ghola character or by some sub-tactic used by an ascended character. But, as 4.0 comes draws near, and this board discards all theoretical 3.5 development, I think we owe it to ourselves to accomplish one final thing: Destroy the Core-only Environment Optimization Constraints Abilities, spells, feats, skills, etc used may only come from the core 3 books: PHB, MM, DMG. The extended SRD (all OGC) is not considered "core" for the purposes of this challenge. ONLY the material from the printed core 3 books listed is permissable. 20 levels only. No epic level abilities allowed, except those that are listed in the DMG. EPH is not permissable (see first bullet). By 20 levels only I mean that the character created begins with 190,000 XP. Schemes to acquire more XP for the purpose of gaining character levels beyond 20 are not tolerated. XP hyjinks whereby you acquire and transform additional XP beyond 190,000 into additional power without acquiring additional levels is permissible. Schemes to acquire additional Hit Dice, be they generic or racial, do not count against your level, so long as they are not purchased with experience points. The cumulative experience points one can expend on level adjustment, racial hit dice, and class levels cannot exceed 190,000. LA buy off does not exist. Optimization Goals The ultimate goal is to create an ascended character. That is to say a character which has EVERY ability, feat, spell, etc available within the book list provided (within the Core 3 in this case). Infinite statistics are a plus. The lower the level required to acquire the first bullet, the better. Max level, I remind you, is 20. "Not-quite-ascended characters" are the next best thing, obviously. If a generic "core-only" trick cannot be developed that allows the acquisition of all "core-only" abilities, then the character with the most (and most powerful) "core-only" abilities best fits the goals of this challenge. At the end of the day we are seeking to create the most powerful character possible within the "core-only" environment -- as such, a "Not-quite-ascended" character will likely need to undergo a subjective analysis in order to compare its worth against other such "Not-quite-ascended" characters. Just to be extra clear, here is what I mean by an ascended character: The character has access to every (Ex/Su) special attack, every spell-like ability, every (Ex/Su) special quality in the books available (core 3 in this case). The character can use any class ability, feat, and spell within the Core 3. The character has NI or truly infinite statistics, which includes: skill checks, hit points, hit dice, saves, armor, initiative, and ability scores. Bear in mind that there's not likely to be any reward given for this informal challenge. My only goal here (whether or not I myself can even meet my own challenge) is to bring some closure to this board's fine theoretical developments and in so doing help create the optimization pathways for breaking 4e content. Good luck and have fun!
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-20-08, 12:03 AM	Compilation of Noteworthy Tricks (Credit for a trick's creation will not be given here. There's a good chance that all of these tricks have been discovered before -- the real challenge will likely be in their synthesis. For trick synthesis and the due credit which is associated with that, see the next post.) I will highlight the more controversial tricks in red. Blue tricks are ones which I believe have little rules controversy associated with them. Candle of Invocation --> Unlimited, component-free wishes: Highly enabling, this trick allows one to acquire an unlimited quantity of wishes by summoning efreet via the candle of invocation. Use 1/wish to summon another candle. The 2 remaining wishes may be used as desired. Creature Stacking via Simulacrum Refer to this post for details. Trick #1 is used to create the series of simulacrum. If it holds water, the trick should allow for the stacking of all monster Su and Ex abilities onto a single creature. Requires a work around for polymorph ability stacking inheritance. Awaken Cheese: Classic trick to acquire unlimited Hit Dice and Charisma. Essentially it involves polymorphing into an animal, awakening oneself, then dismissing the polymorph effect. The result is a net increase of 1d3 Charisma and 2HD (magical beast HD). XP component may be circumvented via a component-less wish, as may the 24 hour cast time. Unlimited Constitution: Acquiring the Shambling mound's extraordinary immunity to electricity will grant, temporarily, constitution proportional to the number of times one can deliver electrical damage to the creature. Free Stuff via Astral Projection: Astral projection may be used to bypass the normal limit of a limited-use item's functionality. It also allows the expenditure of XP, gold, and other materials without loss. Unlimited Action Looping in a finite amount of time Casting time stop within time stops should enable the acquisition of an unlimited number of actions within a finite time period, provided one can sustain repeated castings of a 9th level spell. Ghost Clown Car: Somehow create ghosts of every creature in the game, and have them under your control. Have them possess another being under your control (possibly yourself) to give you access to their mental Su and SLA abilities. Infinite Clones -> 40 base CL via Red Wizard PrC: Shapechange into a black pudding. Figure out how to also stack the Shambling mound ability on as well. Pump up your HP to a lot. Start splitting yourself. Mix with Red Wizard's circle magic to pump your CL to 40.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-20-08, 12:07 AM	Reserved2
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-20-08, 12:35 AM	Discussion I'm guessing the following classically overpowered spells will be abused heavily: Gate Miracle Wish Simulacrum Shapechange Astral Projection Since XP/Material components suck, it's good to know what monsters can do those things for you without spending any components (they have them as spell-like abilities). I quote the following rules for reference: Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component. A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell: Using a spell-like ability while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a Concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and to being dispelled by dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A spell-like ability that can be used at will has no use limit. For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variables (such as range and duration) the abilities might have. The creature’s caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is: 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Cha modifier. Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order. Some creatures are actually sorcerers of a sort. They cast arcane spells as sorcerers do, using components when required. In fact, an individual creature could have some spell-like abilities and also cast other spells as a sorcerer. Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is: 10 + ½ the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma). (Red text emphasis mine). I highlighted the portions which I believe will come in handy for future trickery. Solar: Wish 1/day as an SLA. Note that Pit-Fiends do not get Wish as an SLA, but they can use wish (as the spell) 1/year. It's not clear in the Pit Fiend's case whether or not the ability is cast as an SLA or a regular spell. To avoid rules debates, I'd recommend using Solar (if nothing else for more guaranteed cast frequency). Solars are also capable of CASTING miracle, but not as an SLA. Note this important distinction. They only prepare 1 miracle, by RAW, though if you could get a Solar to be under your control for more than a day, I believe it's reasonable to request them to prepare more than 1x miracle, if so desired. Nightmare: Astral Projection as a Supernatural ability (no components required and, by RAW, only a standard action to "cast", since it is not noted otherwise. See the quoted rules texts above.) Titan: Gate as an SLA 1/day. I can't find a creature with Shapechange as an SLA, fortunately it doesn't have much in the way of components. A component-free version of simulacrum would likely be of significant benefit.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-20-08, 12:50 AM	Further Discussion In case it hasn't become readily obvious over the time that this board has been in existence, the most powerful abstract idea ever created is the concept of "creature stacking". That is, combining the abilities of multiple creatures into one, singular creature. The second most potent abstract concept is undoubtedly the infinite action loop. Traditional ascension plots require both of these components. I honestly don't know of a core-only creature stacking mechanism. The ghola character's creature stacking trick is to use fusion in conjunction with ice-assassin. Pun-pun uses manipulate form. A third creature stacking trick exists (and I pointed it out in the Terminator thread) whereby one uses the True Shapechange SDA to stack all extraordinary abilities in the game. Unfortunately, all of these tricks rely on stuff outside of the core environment. So a new mechanic will need to be developed. There is, however, a mechanic for an infinite action loop within the core environment: nested time stops. This comes with several, significant draw backs: interaction with other creatures, even summons or called creatures is impossible in a nested time-stop action loop. Infinite spells are needed to sustain the infinite time-stop action loop. Without the Alter Reality SDA (or psionics) available to us, creating a self-sustained infinite spell loop may well be impossible. Conclusion? I have reserved hope for the success of this project. It will doubtfully be accomplished in the same methods as other ascension plots. That's good from a developmental point of view, but from where I stand now, it may just mean that the goal is unattainable. It'll be interesting to see what can be accomplished.
SquashMonster 04-20-08, 01:12 AM	I think Candles of Invocation bear mentioning. Candle of invocation -> Efreeti -> 3 Wishes -> Candle of Invocation -> 2 Spare Wishes However, I don't know how to translate that into ascension without the existence of a monster with Manipulate Form.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-20-08, 01:22 AM	(separating these posts will hopefully allow people to address them more point-by-point. The also help me break this massively difficult problem down into more manageable chunks. Thinking out loud also helps me.) Core-Only Creature Stacking Idea Suppose you were able to stack two different creature's abilities -- say via the errata'd Wild Shape and Shape Change (as was discovered in this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-589081) a long while back) If you read that thread, Lokiyn raises the idea of using spells that grant supernatural abilities temporarily and then making them permanent by transferring them to a different form with a spell that references the previous form's abilities, but makes no stipulation about their permanence. I expressed some dissatisfaction with the concept and possible alternative rules interpretation at the time. But, for the sake of argument, suppose Lokiyn was correct. That allows the following abuse: Shape change into some creature with a desired supernatural ability, share this shape change with your familiar via Share Spells. Have a simulacrum of your familiar created for free (see next post for this trick). Simulacrum will have all of the desired supernatural abilities acquired via the shapechange at the time of reference, including the ability to Share Spells and (most important) the familiar's effective HD (for the purposes of spells) are tied to your own. This prevents HD degradation in subsequent simulacrum. Shapechange the simulacrum familiar into a different creature with the desired Su and Ex traits. Create a new simulacrum of this new familiar/simulacrum. The new simulacrum should have stacked abilities. The utterly rules breaking irony of this trick is that it totally circumvents the only draw back of simulacrum! The logic is, as follows: It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD). For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher. So, when you copy your familiar via simulacrum it creates a creature with all the abilities associated with a creature of your familiar's HD (which are, for all effects related to HD, your HD ) divided by 2. However, upon recopying the next simulacrum, the creature's HD again reference your own (since familiar's of all HD have the trait of referencing their master's HD for any effect referencing HD). This eliminates any degradation of any HD dependent skills, abilities, feats, and special abilities.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-20-08, 01:26 AM	Free Simulacrum As SquashMonster astutely points out, we can use Candle of Invocation + Efreet to acquire an unlimited quantity of candles, which in turn means we can accumulate an unlimited quantity of Gate spells. This, in turn, means we can acquire an unlimited supply of wishes, which in turn means we can acquire an unlimited supply of simulacrum (which are component free!). The casting time of these simulacrum is set by Wish itself, which is a standard action.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-20-08, 01:55 AM	So, if the simulacrum-familiar creature stacking trick works, we may be well on our way. The following scheme produces interesting results: Simulacrum-familiar creature stacking (hereafter referred to as "SFCS") to stack all Ex and Su abilities of the 200-odd non-templated creatures in the Monster Manual. Apply Shambling mound trick to increase constitution to twice desired level Apply SFCS to make the constitution bonus permanent. Apply Awaken trick to increase HD and Charisma to desired level. Results: NI Con, NI Cha, all Su & Ex abilities in MM.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-20-08, 01:57 AM	Blast! A slight issue with the SFCS trick: You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. The highlighted clause would erase Su ability stacking. Ex ability stacking via SFCS is still possible. Currently seeking a work-around. I'm guessing that we may need to add an additional simulacrum to the current SFCS process. EDIT Blargh! It's even worse! Due to spell-property inheritance from Alter Self: You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels. I'm not thinking clearly, apparently... A work-around for this is not readily apparent without some kind of fusion mechanic. Magic Jar probably won't work due to the following, annoying clause: You can’t choose to activate the body’s extraordinary or supernatural abilities. The creature’s spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body. What good is having the abilities, if you cannot make use of them?!
X-Codes 04-20-08, 07:00 AM	Ghost's Malevolence. If you command the ghost using it's Malevolence ability on you, then you essentially retain control of your own body plus get use of the Ghost's abilities. Furthermore, there is no prescribed limit to the number of Ghosts that can use their Malevolence ability on you. Since there's no recepticle like with the Magic Jar spell, the fuzzy part is where your soul goes while the ability is in effect. The hard part is reliably creating Ghosts with the Malevolence ability. Once you figure that part out, you can apply the ghost template to however many creatures you want, command them, and then have them use their Malevolence ability on you, which then gives you their abilities. If you manage that, you now have all Sp and Su abilities in the Monster Manual.
Tshern 04-20-08, 08:43 AM	How about Black pudding's Split ability? If you use Shapechange and become a Shambling mound and use its electricity trick to increase your constitution to preposterous heights you gain amazing amounts of hitpoints, right? This is because of any subsequent changes in constitution score effect your total amount of hitpoints. Let's abuse this a bit. First gain NI constitution and after this turn into a Black pudding. Remember, you do keep your hitpoints because your constitution has not gone through any subsequent changes. Have yourself hit with a lot of weapons and have a lot of clones all of whom have 50% of your crazy high amount of hitpoints. Have this little fellows become Wizards, abuse infinite Wishes, weave baskets and whatnot. Does this work the way I think it does?
awaken_D_M_golem 04-20-08, 02:37 PM	I'm in. No Psi- ?! !@#$%^&* such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack X infinity or taking a -7 penalty on its next saving throw. X inifinity add to the powers of an existing magic item. X infinity The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round ... X infinity ... (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. X infinity Custom Items of Diplomacy gets Epic Dip checks on Dieties, but does it work with your restrictions. Technically, the dieties are unstatted in this "core". Inference can go a couple of ways. Both LimWish and Wish have equal power level clauses. Since non-core is ~balanced, maybe that allows 1 level down effects. I don't have the short list of Epic feats in front of me. Expanded Spell capacity = 10th level spells, so ... Heighten Wish, and Wishing for more powerful stuff = ???
Tshern 04-20-08, 03:04 PM	I thought of diplomacy cheese too, but as you said, deities are only mentioned in the PHB. Could be used to amass a massive army of high level monsters though. Edit: Could we not use diplomacy cheese+deities to get a ring of infinite Miracles as well? That way we would get infinite Cleric spells of 8th level and lower.
awaken_D_M_golem 04-20-08, 03:20 PM	Far Realms is available via the fluff text of Aboleths, Beholders, Illithids. But what kind of Far Realms is it? Termy / Monty via a back door ??!! Polymorph Any Object * 2 = permanent, was discovered during: "Is T_G On Vacation ?!" maybe that's the work around. Psionics are available via some of the monsters. Sorry about teh !@# then. Cursed Items, turned into a sticky something, can make Divine or Arcane spells non-functional. Attract a diety's / something powerful's attention via destroying an Artifact. Two of the Deck cards give ~10th level spell effects. Undo anything once, Know dilemma.
Tshern 04-20-08, 03:39 PM	Isn't there a deck that has a card that grants you a level up? Spamming Wishes in conjunction with that ought to give NI levels...
Thinker89 04-20-08, 03:54 PM	It's the deck of many things. You can only draw a specified number of cards from the deck once and never draw again. It's a minor artifact so there are a definite finite amount around. Once a card is drawn it is replaced in the deck. I am not sure if you are allowed to shuffle it or not. If you can, you can use some divination to know the next card and continue to draw the "comet" card. It lets you gain enough xp to go up to your next level so it may be that you may not go up multiple levels if you drew the card multiple times. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#deckofManyThings
The_Mad_Linguist 04-20-08, 04:13 PM	Deck of many things +Astral projection + Augury.
Thinker89 04-20-08, 04:27 PM	I don't think that gets around it. You name the number of cards you want to draw, draw them, and than never get to draw from the deck again.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-20-08, 05:32 PM	Ghost's Malevolence. If you command the ghost using it's Malevolence ability on you, then you essentially retain control of your own body plus get use of the Ghost's abilities. Furthermore, there is no prescribed limit to the number of Ghosts that can use their Malevolence ability on you. Since there's no recepticle like with the Magic Jar spell, the fuzzy part is where your soul goes while the ability is in effect. The hard part is reliably creating Ghosts with the Malevolence ability. Once you figure that part out, you can apply the ghost template to however many creatures you want, command them, and then have them use their Malevolence ability on you, which then gives you their abilities. If you manage that, you now have all Sp and Su abilities in the Monster Manual. Well, I'd guess that the possessed person's life force enters a magic jar (as the spell says) but the magic jar doesn't exist physically. Kind of like an imaginary jar. Upon the ghost relinquishing control of the previously possessed person, they'd return to normal (their soul would return from the imaginary jar). The obvious advantage to the imaginary jar is that it's... imaginary, and thus can be treated to be wherever you want it to be... that way the ghost never needs to worry about going out of range of its own imaginary jar. ANYWAYS, that said, you've certainly got an interesting idea. However, I'd be inclined to say that multiple ghosts inhabiting the same vessel wouldn't result in stacking of Su/Sp abilities. Rationale: When one ghost possesses the body, his life force inhabits it, if another one tries to possess it, he must kick the life force currently residing there out to make room for himself. Polymorph Any Object * 2 = permanent, was discovered during: "Is T_G On Vacation ?!" maybe that's the work around. I don't think making the abilities permanent is a terribly pressing matter. However, using PaO certainly lends more credence to the Simulacrum's adsorption of magically induced abilities. The real issue lies in the inheritance clause present in all the Polymorph line spells, eliminating the stacking of (Ex) and (Su) abilities/qualities not derived from class levels. Even PaO has the inheritance clause, "This spell functions like polymorph, except..."
NoldorForce 04-20-08, 06:51 PM	ANYWAYS, that said, you've certainly got an interesting idea. However, I'd be inclined to say that multiple ghosts inhabiting the same vessel wouldn't result in stacking of Su/Sp abilities. Rationale: When one ghost possesses the body, his life force inhabits it, if another one tries to possess it, he must kick the life force currently residing there out to make room for himself.But one ghost can merge into another ghost ad infinitum. So we've at least got a way to make a clown car out of spells and SLAs. Hmm, magical clown cars... For reference, the available epic feats in the DMG are as follows: Familiar Spell: Useful if you can get indefinite copies combined with the Ghost Clown Car. Great Smiting: Bah, who cares about smiting? (With indefinite copies, however, it's useful, considering that it applies to any smite rather than just the paladin's version.) Improved Elemental Wild Shape: Doesn't do much that Shapechange can't. Improved Favored Enemy: Meh on its own, fantastic with indefinite copies and/or favored enemies. (Ie, infinite damage to everything.) Improved Metamagic: Less useful here with Persistent Spell out of the picture, but still viable. Improved Sneak Attack: Like above, really good with many many copies. Improved Spell Capacity: Combine with infinite Charisma for infinite spell slots at an infinite number of levels. Improved Stunning Fist: Stun everybody you can think of. Lasting Inspiration: Meh. Overwhelming Critical: This would be much better if Devastating Critical were also available. On its own, OC is terrible. Planar Turning: Poor without a way to indefinitely advance turning. (Improved Turning can only be taken once, AFAIK.) Spell Knowledge: More power to the sorcerer! Terrifying Rage: With infinite HD and infinite Charisma, you're guaranteed to panic anyone who's not simply immune when you rage. And as far as I can tell, it's not mind-affecting. It's rather depressing to not have Improved Heighten Spell, however; the restriction on Heighten Spell is just a foolish legacy.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-20-08, 08:05 PM	I suppose a ghost-clown-car is superior to the shapechange clown car, in that it grants SLAs too. Still need a way to get qualities to STACK, however. Clown car tactics work for "use-abilities" but not passive qualities, particularly when the power of quality stacking is the synergy between abilities that were never meant to mix.
The_Mad_Linguist 04-20-08, 08:11 PM	I don't think that gets around it. You name the number of cards you want to draw, draw them, and than never get to draw from the deck again. What do you mean? You figure out how many cards can be drawn beneficially, draw them, :EDIT: OR summon a fiendish monkey or something and have it draw the bad ones. Since the deck is an astrally projected copy... repeat.
Thinker89 04-20-08, 09:05 PM	What do you mean? You figure out how many cards can be drawn beneficially, draw them, then summon a fiendish monkey or something and have it draw the bad ones. Since the deck is an astrally projected copy... repeat. What I mean is that the deck reads, "Cards must be drawn within 1 hour of each other, and a character can never again draw from this deck any more cards than she has announced. If the character does not willingly draw her allotted number (or if she is somehow prevented from doing so), the cards flip out of the deck on their own." Astral projection creates copies of you and your stuff. These astral copies maintain their identity as a person/object and as such cannot be drawn from again. If you were to argue this is not the case (which I mostly believe it is seeing as the following text refers to this "copy" as "you") than you would still not be able to benefit from further drawing of the cards because, "Although astral projections are able to function on the Astral Plane, their actions affect only creatures existing on the Astral Plane." This means two things. First, that if you are not astrally projected but the deck copy is, you will not benefit. And secondly, that if the deck is not the same deck than you in your astral form are not the same you and will not ultimately benefit from its effects. Even still, if I am wrong about this, there are further problems. You would need to overcome the stacking problem of sorts. You can't really be interrupted in your drawing of the cards. The card that gives a level (Comet) reads, "The character must single-handedly defeat the next hostile monster or monsters encountered, or the benefit is lost. If successful, the character gains enough XP to attain the next experience level." So, if you manage to draw 50 of them somehow you will still only gain enough xp to go up one level once you kill a creature. That means you would have to be killing and drawing a card simultaneously to gain the benefits multiple times.
NoldorForce 04-20-08, 09:38 PM	Come to think of it, we need a checklist on things to drive to infinity: Class levels/abilities. Solvable if we can guarantee a way to grab a Deck of Many Things. Hit dice. As above, through Awaken cheese. Skill modifiers. Through infinite hit dice. Feats. Through infinite hit dice. Equipment. Through Astral Projection cheese and CoI cheese, as above. Spell slots. Through infinite feats (Improved Spell Capacity). Ability scores. Through infinite hit dice. Creature abilities. Solvable if we can find a way to grant such that won't void subsequent applications. AC. Through infinite Dexterity. Attack rolls. Through infinite Strength or Dexterity. Damage rolls. Through infinite Strength. Saving throws. Through infinite Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom. Am I missing anything? Note that if need be, we can grab an infinite cadre of chained cohorts and such by jacking up the hit dice of the most recent cohort, then having said cohort attract another. After all, the Leadership restrictions are placed only on attracting new cohorts, and specify nothing about changes to exisitng ones. @ Thinker89: AFAIK, the trick with Astral Projection and the DoMT is that the original version is never actually used; you just keep copying the "fresh" deck and "burning" the copies. Plus, the Comet card can easily be dealt with by Gating in something wimpy and ordering it to kill you. Sure it's hostile, but that doesn't mean it's a threat. It's true that properly using the Comet card effectively interrupts you, but that's why you generate an additional copy of the DoMT after each use of a copy in the first place. Though as above there's still the issue of getting a Deck in the first place.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-20-08, 10:00 PM	EDIT: Nm, I need to L2read.
Thinker89 04-20-08, 10:44 PM	@ Thinker89: AFAIK, the trick with Astral Projection and the DoMT is that the original version is never actually used; you just keep copying the "fresh" deck and "burning" the copies. Plus, the Comet card can easily be dealt with by Gating in something wimpy and ordering it to kill you. Sure it's hostile, but that doesn't mean it's a threat. It's true that properly using the Comet card effectively interrupts you, but that's why you generate an additional copy of the DoMT after each use of a copy in the first place. Though as above there's still the issue of getting a Deck in the first place. Mmmm, forgot about that but I think the argument still holds. If, in fact, the actual deck and the copy do have the same identity than effecting either one will result in you no longer being able to use the other. It's just the inverse. Anything done to the original is imprinted on the copy and anything done to the copy is updated in the original. So, even if you destroy the copy after use, you won't be able to get a usable copy from the original again.
NoldorForce 04-20-08, 11:05 PM	Where are you getting the idea that Astral Projection's copied equipment is linked in any way to the original stuff beyond the initial replication?You project your astral self onto the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation. The spell projects an astral copy of you and all you wear or carry onto the Astral Plane. Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, you can travel astrally to any of these other planes as you will. To enter one, you leave the Astral Plane, forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence you have chosen to enter.Bolding mine. From what I can tell, your old equipment is copied to make new and entirely distinct equipment when you leave the Astral Plane. Your true physical body and your astral body/second physical body are linked, but your equipment isn't - beyond the setup. After all, Condemnation is not a reliable source for the rules, and certainly not a Core text. (In fact, Extinction features a character using Time Stop in the 3.0 manner...despite being published months after 3.5 came out.)
Thinker89 04-20-08, 11:43 PM	Ahh, get it. Second bolded part helped. I have never actually used the spell and guess I just misunderstood what it was doing. What are these condemnation and extinction? Are they SRD's?
NoldorForce 04-21-08, 12:09 AM	What are these condemnation and extinction? Are they SRD's?Both are novels from the War of the Spider Queen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_spider_queen) series. Pretty much all of the characters in the six books are Evil Scheming Bastards, and thus it's highly amusing to watch all the interactions between said Evil Scheming Bastards. More precisely, the reference to Condemnation occurred when several of the characters use Astral Projection to enter the Abyss. Things go awry (like Gate to yank forth a GOD into a place he's normally banned from), and the party wizard decides to tell the party BSF (assigned to watch the bodies) to kill the cleric who'd set up the whole mess. The text describes bits of his armor being slowly ripped off before he's disemboweled - despite the fact that the BSF dissects the cleric's armor on his true body, the same thing happens to his second body in violation of how the rules are supposed to work.
Thinker89 04-21-08, 12:29 AM	lol gotchya but yea back on topic...unfortunately I don't think I have anything to contribute atm
Callix 04-21-08, 02:25 AM	On the DoMT: We have arbitrarily many Legend Lores. Make a DC Whatever Knowledge (Arcana) check for some knowledge of the Deck. Then use Legend Lore from infinite wishes to refine the knowledge, until Teleport Without Error can get you there. If there exists a deck, you can find it. Also, the Loremaster's True Lore ability can be used.
Tshern 04-21-08, 08:43 AM	Anyone think the Black pudding+Shambling mound method I presented on the first page is legal and usable?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-21-08, 12:14 PM	Anyone think the Black pudding+Shambling mound method I presented on the first page is legal and usable? Not so much legal issues, as practical problems: What does cloning myself a zillion times get me other than making things go faster? I understand, later on, that speed may be a goal, but for the time being we can't even get a character to achieve ascended status, let alone worry about expediting the procedure. Is there something I'm missing from this trick that you'd like to expand on? Too bad puddings cannot recombine... that'd make this whole excersize trivial.
larry_the_titan 04-21-08, 01:54 PM	Not so much legal issues, as practical problems: What does cloning myself a zillion times get me other than making things go faster? I understand, later on, that speed may be a goal, but for the time being we can't even get a character to achieve ascended status, let alone worry about expediting the procedure. Is there something I'm missing from this trick that you'd like to expand on? Too bad puddings cannot recombine... that'd make this whole excersize trivial. I would say an unlimited supply of self copied mooks could be useful even though having unlimited followers can't make you a god. It would possibly lead to a Effective method for a Nano bots build. Infinites selves lead to infinite skill checks trough infinite aid another actions.
Tshern 04-21-08, 03:23 PM	Not so much legal issues, as practical problems: Out of curiosity and lack of expertise, would that work as per RAW? What does cloning myself a zillion times get me other than making things go faster? I understand, later on, that speed may be a goal, but for the time being we can't even get a character to achieve ascended status, let alone worry about expediting the procedure. As a matter of fact, I did not think about all the practical applications of this, but even I knew that if that trick worked, it would be helpful in some way. Not posting that simply because I don't know how that helps the character to ascend would've been stupid. At least aid another larry_the_titan mentioned would be helpful. I suppose having dozens of Red Wizards would help with circle magic even though with an ascended character that is rather trivial. Thanks for the feedback though. Is there something I'm missing from this trick that you'd like to expand on? Nothing. At least not yet. I see if I can come up with something based on this. Too bad puddings cannot recombine... that'd make this whole excersize trivial. Indeed, but I bet that trick would've been in your opening post if it was possible...
NoldorForce 04-21-08, 03:54 PM	What does cloning myself a zillion times get me other than making things go faster? I understand, later on, that speed may be a goal, but for the time being we can't even get a character to achieve ascended status, let alone worry about expediting the procedure.How do we define ascended status? As on the first page, everything can be made infinite except class levels (which are questionable at the moment) and creature abilities. Most abilities and statistics can be made infinite simply by jacking up Hit Dice. This is a consequence of the fact that skills, feats, and ability scores all gain regular increases with increasing Hit Dice. Come to think of it, finding a way to get infinite speed would be good, but that's likely subsumed in infinite class levels (monk).
awaken_D_M_golem 04-21-08, 06:02 PM	I would say an unlimited supply of self copied mooks could be useful even though having unlimited followers can't make you a god. It would possibly lead to a Effective method for a Nano bots build. Infinites selves lead to infinite skill checks trough infinite aid another actions. Telepathic Bond spells spammed infinite, across the planes, could Aid Another on any mental stat based skill checks. So infinite Knowledge = ??? , inf. Survival = ??? d20srd: "Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack." Inf. attack bonus, inf. AC.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-21-08, 10:02 PM	By ascended character I mean the following (I should put this in the OP for clarity): The character has access to every (Ex/Su) special attack, every spell-like ability, every (Ex/Su) special quality in the books available (core 3 in this case). The character can use any class ability, feat, and spell within the Core 3. The character has NI or truly infinite statistics, which includes: skill checks, hit points, hit dice, saves, armor, initiative, and ability scores. Basically, we're talking about Pun-Pun. The question is can we make an ascended character without using Fusion, SDAs, or Manipulate Form? (Those are the three key tricks I know to make an "ascended" character. Furthermore, we're restricting ourselves to the Core 3. I fully expect this challenge to be near impossible. At the outset, I did not have an idea for how it would be accomplished, and I still don't! If, despite a meeting of TO minds, it cannot be accomplished, I will consider it to be a tribute to the Designers of the core 3 books. ---~~~--- A lot indeed can be accomplished via the Awaken cheese loop. And that is why I think the problem of creature stacking is the crown jewel innovation that will come out of this project. If creature stacking via simulacrum is possible, then the Ghola-character mechanic can be employed and we are done, which was the rationale behind my comment about pudding reformation making this a slam-dunk problem. I'm not oblivious of the Nano-bot mechanic. I just don't think that it gets us anywhere further than what Awaken cheese gets us. The red-wizard idea is interesting, but at this juncture I'm not sure what free metamagic is going to get us. It may have been great for an Arcane Nova scheme (I should note that for alternative nova builds). Improved CL IS something that is difficult to obtain and thus we should definitely consider that.
NoldorForce 04-21-08, 10:38 PM	By ascended character I mean the following (I should put this in the OP for clarity): The character has access to every (Ex/Su) special attack, every spell-like ability, every (Ex/Su) special quality in the books available (core 3 in this case). The character can use any class ability, feat, and spell within the Core 3. The character has NI or truly infinite statistics, which includes: skill checks, hit points, hit dice, saves, armor, initiative, and ability scores. Basically, we're talking about Pun-Pun. The question is can we make an ascended character without using Fusion, SDAs, or Manipulate Form? (Those are the three key tricks I know to make an "ascended" character. Furthermore, we're restricting ourselves to the Core 3. I fully expect this challenge to be near impossible. At the outset, I did not have an idea for how it would be accomplished, and I still don't! If, despite a meeting of TO minds, it cannot be accomplished, I will consider it to be a tribute to the Designers of the core 3 books. ---~~~--- A lot indeed can be accomplished via the Awaken cheese loop. And that is why I think the problem of creature stacking is the crown jewel innovation that will come out of this project. If creature stacking via simulacrum is possible, then the Ghola-character mechanic can be employed and we are done, which was the rationale behind my comment about pudding reformation making this a slam-dunk problem. I'm not oblivious of the Nano-bot mechanic. I just don't think that it gets us anywhere further than what Awaken cheese gets us. The red-wizard idea is interesting, but at this juncture I'm not sure what free metamagic is going to get us. It may have been great for an Arcane Nova scheme (I should note that for alternative nova builds). Improved CL IS something that is difficult to obtain and thus we should definitely consider that.So we're going with the most potent definition of "ascended" that we can. Good to know. In any case, I'd looked back over Malevolence and Magic Jar to find that we can't stack spells or SLAs either. The text explicitly notes that "the creature’s spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body". We still need some guaranteed method of grabbing a Deck of Many Things; the above methods (involving multiple Legend Lore effects) are good IF A DECK EXISTS IN THE FIRST PLACE. Which we haven't been able to demonstrate, sadly. Wish or Miracle might work, but that's a ways into the realms of DM Fiat. Come to think of it, how far should we go with the DMG Item Creation Guidelines? Especially considering that we don't have the epic limitations and price multipliers? (Armor, shields, and weapons are subject to the normal maxima of +10, but I can't find anything for other equipment in the DMG.)
The_Mad_Linguist 04-22-08, 03:16 AM	We still need some guaranteed method of grabbing a Deck of Many Things; the above methods (involving multiple Legend Lore effects) are good IF A DECK EXISTS IN THE FIRST PLACE. Which we haven't been able to demonstrate, sadly. Wish or Miracle might work, but that's a ways into the realms of DM Fiat. There's some small probability that any given deity or sufficiently powerful wizard will eventually create an artifact. Furthermore, there is a probability that the deck of many things is the artifact that will be created. Given the existence of an infinite universe, it's statistically impossible that nobody will have created a deck. That, and as a minor artifact, the Deck of Many things is "not neccessarily unique". Oh, and I guess you might be able to have a god make one for you, depending on what fluff's included (can't remember off the top of my head)
esrz22 04-22-08, 10:17 PM	Wizard. Wish for a Magic Orb of Ascending*. Use it. Ok, that's probably a really liberal interpretation of creating a magic item, but hey. *Create ANY Magic Item with Wish as a safe use.
awaken_D_M_golem 04-23-08, 06:12 PM	Miracle gives 3 examples of higher than normal uses. Wish has 2 examples of "stacking" wishes, one right after another. Wish uses "may", one of those Pazuzu-esque words, to say that DM fiat might happen with a higher level usage. But it might not ... sneaky Empower Wish/Miracle Maximize Wish/Miracle Emp+Max Wish/Miracle Nano-bots / inf HD gets us to the Omnificer's premises section, i.e. What is a Knowledge DC of Infinity gonna get us ??? We know that Vecna killed Kas, and Kas killed Vecna, and maybe the Sword of Kas is what did that. So we know how to kill at least One diety, at one time, under those one specific circumstances. Expand-able ?!
esrz22 04-24-08, 08:15 AM	Right, Wish fiats away higher level usages. This is why I suggested a safe use. Creating a magic item is one of the "safe" uses. Yes, this is pretty silly, and no, I don't expect it's really viable. But, there's no limit to the magic item you can create, so. By my reading, the fiat clause only applies to non-listed uses of Wish. 'course, DM could blast it, anyway, but this is Theoretical Optimization. Most of this stuff would get DMed down, methinks.
larry_the_titan 04-24-08, 08:24 AM	Right, Wish fiats away higher level usages. This is why I suggested a safe use. Creating a magic item is one of the "safe" uses. Yes, this is pretty silly, and no, I don't expect it's really viable. But, there's no limit to the magic item you can create, so. I would say placing a limit of 2X the price it can make in normal materials would be warranted. I mean its already draining Exp on a standard use. Besides granting of Wish as a Spell like ability or Supernatural Trait is simply broken.
esrz22 04-24-08, 10:27 AM	I would say placing a limit of 2X the price it can make in normal materials would be warranted. I mean its already draining Exp on a standard use. Besides granting of Wish as a Spell like ability or Supernatural Trait is simply broken. Oh, yes, it's definitley warranted. But, it doesn't exist. As written, you can pay a meager 10,000 exp* to create a magic item of unlimited power. It's cheesey and surely doomed to immediate fiat**, but as written it should work. *5000 for the wish, plus another 5000 for creating the magic item. There is also a clause about also paying twice the exp cost for crafting the item, but as you're designing the item from scratch, you can set it to have no exp cost. **Again, this fiat would have to be outside the reach of the spell. Creating a magic item is a safe use.
Senevri 04-24-08, 04:38 PM	here's the relevant quote: When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP. Basically, you cannot do ANYTHING with it you couldn't do with the appropriate Crafting feats. Remember, custom magic items are a VARIANT - IE, requiring a DM fiat.
awaken_D_M_golem 04-25-08, 03:02 PM	Inf Wishes = Inf Candles = Inf Titans = Inf 20th level Cleric casting = Inf Miracles Inf Wishes = Inf improvement on Magic Items, but how powerful do they get ?? Inf Knowledge (ancient) and Inf Knowledge (arcane) should get the ability to make a Deck Of Many Things. Inf Bluff = "The bluff is way out there, almost too incredible to consider." Inf Diplomacy = All Dieties are "Helpful - Will take risks to help you - Protect, back up, heal, aid" excluding epic means at some level we are guessing. So, are we at ~Omnificer with Waffle Zone + Assumptions ?!
doink1212 04-26-08, 12:04 AM	If we have infinite class levels is it legal to gain nearly every spell in the PHB as a SLA using the Archmage and Heirphant PrC? Or only a few of them?
Tshern 04-26-08, 08:38 AM	Technically you can only take five levels of each, right? Edit: Just noticed you had added the Shambling mound trick to the second post where you list the dirtiest core tricks and this caught my attention: Infinite Clones -> 40 base CL via Red Wizard PrC: Shapechange into a black pudding. Figure out how to also stack the Shambling mound ability on as well. Pump up your HP to a lot. Start splitting yourself. Mix with Red Wizard's circle magic to pump your CL to 40. This is easily solved. Cast Shapechange and pump your HP. Then cast Shapechange again (or if it works, just change your form) and turn into a Black pudding. So far there have been no subsequent constitution changes after you cast your second Shapechange and thus, as per the errata, your hitpoints remain NI. Proceed to split yourself.
awaken_D_M_golem 04-29-08, 08:02 PM	..
larry_the_titan 04-30-08, 06:37 AM	. . And ... we're done ... 6 weeks early. . . Actually Wizards beat us to it a long time ago we are just documenting it.
BillTheManiac 04-30-08, 02:06 PM	Wow. Good job guys. What is the starting-off-point? 1 CoI or do we need more? Is character wealth the only restriction, then?
Callix 04-30-08, 04:44 PM	Wow. Good job guys. What is the starting-off-point? 1 CoI or do we need more? Is character wealth the only restriction, then? We have all class abilities, but not all abilities. If we can find some way to monster-stack, then we can have all abilities at once. Admittedly, it's not that important when you always have a Shapechange up, but it is an area with room for improvement. We've matched, and probably exceeded, the Omniscificer, but we can't catch either the Ghola mechanic or Pun-Pun.
deathwishjoe 04-30-08, 04:52 PM	How did we get all class abilities? I thought we had a combo for unlimited HD (but not class levels) and unlimited clones now. plus if you have unlimited 9th level spells you can have any SU or EX ability on your turn just not at the same time. Shape change lets you change form as a free action once per turn and with multiple casting you be able able to change as a free action more then once. this is all very far from having all class abilities and monster abilities. I think the only way of solving this problem is to find a legal way of adding the ghost template. I can't seem to find any way to add the abilities from one monster/character to another.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-30-08, 06:32 PM	Shape change lets you change form as a free action once per turn and with multiple casting you be able able to change as a free action more then once. How is that now?
BillTheManiac 04-30-08, 07:12 PM	We have all class abilities, but not all abilities. If we can find some way to monster-stack, then we can have all abilities at once. Admittedly, it's not that important when you always have a Shapechange up, but it is an area with room for improvement. We've matched, and probably exceeded, the Omniscificer, but we can't catch either the Ghola mechanic or Pun-Pun. You'll never match the real Pun-Pun, I guess. The one that can make up all abilities. All monster abilities. That is pretty tough. At least we have inf. XP, so all templates with LA, right?
NoldorForce 05-01-08, 02:08 AM	Hmm...here's a quirky idea I'd developed for stacking Ex/Su abilities. Hopefully it works... Grab a cohort with Wild Shape, Natural Spell, and Shapechange. MAKE SURE SAID ABILITY ALLOWS FOR ELEMENTAL WILD SHAPE. Also make sure that said cohort's druid class level is equal to its Hit Dice; this can be managed with a simple Druid 20. Grab another cohort with a familiar, say a Wizard 20. Clone any number of Elemental creatures with your desired abilities. It doesn't matter at this point that you can only fit a finite amount of abilities in each creature. Shapechange on the familiar + Polymorph to make it an Elemental + Simulacrum works best.* Clone that druid twice. Here, Awaken cheese to give it 20 extra HD (40 HD total) works fine. Keep in mind that any such clones have the original 20 HD. BEGIN LOOP Have one of the current druid cohort clones Wild Shape into one of the elemental familiar clones to gain its Ex, Su, and Sp abilities. Then have it Shapechange into the other clone to gain ITS Ex and Su abilities (ie, to regain its original Ex and Su abilities). Clone it twice in the same way as the original. END LOOP *This doesn't work for creatures immune to polymorph effects. In core, such are liches, phasms, chaos beasts, plants, and oozes. It also doesn't work for incorporeal, gaseous, or templated creatures. The key here is to find two abilities that grant the same thing from an assumed form. One ability grabs a new set of stuff, while the other ability retains your old stuff. And I'm sure that we can find a way to combine Elemental Wild Shape with Magic Jar for SLA stacking. All we need to do is to find a way to allow an arbitrary creature with SLAs to use Magic Jar and to be Polymorphed into an elemental. A Ring of Three Wishes would work. So: Have anything immune to polymorphing use Magic Jar into a creature that's not immune. Clone said creature with Awaken + Simulacrum. Polymorph all such creatures into elementals. Clone them with Awaken + Simulacrum. (Make sure you Polymorph after the last Awaken!) Have the above stacked-druid Magic Jar into one such clone. BEGIN LOOP Clone the resulting being with Awaken + Polymorph + Simulacrum. Have the druid Elemental Wild Shape into the clone to gain its SLAs (among other things). Have the druid Magic Jar into another cloned SLA-critter. END LOOP Clone the final Magic Jar result with Awaken + Polymorph + Simulacrum. Have the druid Elemental Wild Shape into said clone. Clone the druid with Awaken + Simulacrum.
NoldorForce 05-01-08, 02:27 AM	How to deal with the stragglers? Templated creatures are right out in general; none of the shapechanging effects allow you to become one in the first place. Chaos beasts can be "fixed" by Polymorphing one into some other form, then IMMEDIATELY cloning it. Its only other ability is supernatural, anyway. (Chaos beasts aren't actually immune, but one of their abilities removes polymorph effects the round after they take effect.) Phasms can be "fixed" by using Alternate Form to nullify their polymorphing immunity. (The familiar can do so to retain everything else.) Plants and oozes I don't know how to "fix". Same with incorporeals. What are "gaseous creatures" defined as, anyway? Do note that the above method grants you ALL Ex/Su abilities of the creature, not just the ones you want or don't want. Though if the initial HD is too big, you can just Simulacrum things down until the resultant creature is within the Shapechange limits.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 05-01-08, 03:19 AM	Very interesting NoldorForce. Very good... *rubs hands* Lemme see if I follow the logic, now: A druid gains all the Su/Ex/and Sp abilities of any large/medium/small elemental form it choses. If one were to wildshape into an elemental that had more Ex/Su/Sp abilities than usual it would allow a druid to stack the Su/and Sp abilities of the two forms (except for gaze & breath attacks). You can also stack Ex qualities this way. You could not stack Ex special attacks, movement modes, or ability scores, of course. The idea, then, is to stack abilities onto elementals, of which form the Druids then assume. Copy the druid (to make the stacking permanent) and stack further. There are a myriad of legal issues with this method, but the line of thinking in innovative. I'll ponder it more.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 05-01-08, 03:24 AM	LOL Just had a stupidly funny brain wave: it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature Shapechanging into unique creatures is now possible by merely cloning the creature in question. We know how to clone people... the fun begins.
NoldorForce 05-01-08, 08:52 AM	You could not stack Ex special attacks, movement modes, or ability scores, of course.Why not? Edit: Oh...because Shapechange voids all Su abilities, not just stuff that's not a class ability. See below for a fix. Speaking of which...I think I've found a way to "fix" incorporeals, plants, and oozes based on a ruling from the FAQ.As a general guideline, whenever the rules don’t stipulate an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or special abilities), you should apply them in the order that’s most beneficial to the creature. In the case of damage, this typically means applying any damage-reducing effects first, before applying any effects that would increase damage.So if we do things properly, we can set Polymorph to function "after" Shapechange. So...set up Shapechange on the familiar into any form that's not immune to polymorph effects. Polymorph it into an elemental. Then swap Shapechange to turn it into the incompatible form (plants, oozes, incorporeals)...while Polymorph swaps its type and subtype back to compatible stuff. Anyway, fixing Shapechange + Elemental Wild Shape...do Shapechange and then Elemental Wild Shape. This gets around the tossing of extraordinary attacks that aren't class abilities because Shapechange and the stuff it grants are ultimately part of a class ability (spellcasting). And you can Shapechange into yourself, so you don't even need two clones per iteration.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 05-01-08, 11:02 AM	Why not? That was a statement of fact, given your prescribed method. Both shape change and wild shape over-write the Ex special attacks, ability scores, movement modes, etc of the previous form, preventing stacking.
NoldorForce 05-01-08, 11:25 AM	That was a statement of fact, given your prescribed method. Both shape change and wild shape over-write the Ex special attacks, ability scores, movement modes, etc of the previous form, preventing stacking.But as above, both only void stuff that's not from class levels. Because the appropriate clone has druid levels and thus druid spellcasting, all the stuff from Shapechange (ie, stuff that IS from class levels) is retained after Elemental Wild Shape.
awaken_D_M_golem 05-01-08, 06:06 PM	Shapechanging into unique creatures is now possible by merely cloning the creature in question. We know how to clone people... the fun begins. The "helpful" Dieties are now cloned. Stick that into NoldorForce's loop, perhaps a truckload of simulacrums. Doesn't PHB state that the dieties grant the spells to Clerics? Or am I just remembering that with Pally and Ranger spells from d&dg? This would be one of those is it (ex) or (su) type thingies. Negative levels should make all top end abilities get-able via NF's loop. Miracle at will Wish at will Cleric Domain 8s + 9s at will almost at Alter Reality
Tleilaxu_Ghola 05-01-08, 08:06 PM	But as above, both only void stuff that's not from class levels. Because the appropriate clone has druid levels and thus druid spellcasting, all the stuff from Shapechange (ie, stuff that IS from class levels) is retained after Elemental Wild Shape. :uh-huh: :nonono: This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here. ... In addition to the normal effects of wild shape, the druid gains all the elemental’s extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities. The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well. The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature). The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form. The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form. The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form. The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution. The creature retains its hit points and save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores. Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses. The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components. You ARE getting all the abilities of the elemental form, but at the cost of losing whatever non-class abilities you had from the previous form. While Wild Shape is a class ability, the abilities granted by it are not intrinsic to the druid class, and thus are not class abilities. To say so would imply that the abilities granted by polymorph are class abilities, since the wizard class allows the casting of polymorph. Is that was the line of logic you were using?
NoldorForce 05-01-08, 11:27 PM	Now that you put it that way...and keeping in mind the recent FAQ ruling on Pierce Magical Protection vs. Cat's Grace...yeah, I think you're right.
deathwishjoe 05-02-08, 01:53 AM	How is that now? while the current topic seems to be making this trick a moot point heres how it works. step 1: cast shape change to change into say a Hydra step 2: cast shape change again to change to a war troll or something. You now have two active shapechange spells on you. You only get the abilities of one form at a time. However the shape change spell allows you to change your shape once a turn as a free action. With more then one shapechange active we gain the ability to change more often as a free action. Thus if you wanted to change back to the hydra for better offensive abilities use the once a turn ability to change form as a free action of the first shapechange and then when you want to go to the more defensive form of the wartroll you use the once a turn ability to change form as a free action of the second shapechange. thus during your turn I can be a war troll, during my turn change into a hydra and use a breath weapon and then change back to a wartroll before your turn starts. All the while enjoying both regeneration and fast healing from both forms.
deathwishjoe 05-02-08, 02:26 AM	well I think we can get all SU abilities onto a creature. shapechange into a medusa for petrifying gaze. we then polymorph into a bunny so our type changes to animal. according to alter self: You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack). thus we are now a bunny with petrifying gaze. we then clone ourselfs. as a druid we now know of an animal with petrifying gaze. we then shape change into a Phase Spider to get Ethereal Jaunt (su). then wildshape back into bunny with petrifying gaze and clone ourselves again. repeat loop. So we have NI stats, ac, feats, skills, spells per day, and all SU abilities not derived from templates. would it possibly be permissable to use the unlimited animal HD to gain XP somehow to gain more class levels? or would that be out of the scope of this challenge due to requiring epic levels rules or something?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 05-03-08, 02:57 AM	More problems... Per inheritance from Alter Self, Shapechange causes you to lose any non-class ability derived (Ex) QUALITY and special attack. That doesn't affect your trick, deathwishjoe, but it bears mentioning. Anyway, to modify your trick, deathwishjoe, I'd roll with polymorphing into an elemental, then cloning, then wildshaping into the elemental, which would guarantee the acquisition of the desired Su trait. To recapitulate more clearly: Shapechange -> get Su trait Polymorph -> elemental, retaining Su traits Clone a copy. Repeat above 3 steps, until we have all the monsters we can copy copied and each stored in an elemental clone. Druid companion Elemental shape into each different elemental, picking up the Su abilities as you go. Clone self as necessary to store accumulated abilities, before continuing. Clone druid companion Assume the form of the now non-unique druid via shapechange
awaken_D_M_golem 05-03-08, 02:14 PM	Boy, this almost makes me wanna go out and buy the v3.5 core, just so I can meditate on the exact wordings. Heh. So, does this latest loop work with clones of helpful dieties ?? What about K's point for the Polymorph update that lets in spellcasting, or is that not core enough ??
NoldorForce 05-03-08, 09:58 PM	You've got to demonstrate that deities are physical, concrete beings within Core. Only Deities and Demigods sets up rules for making such, and it's not Core. Though that is a good point on the Polymorph subschool technically allowing spellcasting (and other abilities with no "type") to be gained with Polymorph and its ilk. I'd like to petition the Rules Compendium (which mentions the subschool) to be Core; after all, it gets to supersede the original three books when there's a conflict. And come to think of it, the DoMT tricks might fly afoul of this clause in the defining post:Schemes to acquire more XP for the purpose of gaining character levels beyond 20 are not tolerated. XP hyjinks whereby you acquire and transform additional XP beyond 190,000 into additional power without acquiring additional levels is permissible. Schemes to acquire additional Hit Dice, be they generic or racial, do not count against your level, so long as they are not purchased with experience points.And the DoMT trick to acquire additional class levels does precisely this, albeit in an odd manner.
awaken_D_M_golem 05-04-08, 02:30 PM	~maybe~ "You've got to demonstrate that deities are physical." Some of the dieties have favored weapons that can't be weilded by incorporeal creatures. Since they can be weilded, the diety has to be corporeal, otherwise the diety couldn't weild it's favorite weapon. But maybe the logic isn't rock solid (... been there). The dieties are helpful due to Dip checks. "Make yourself be clone-able, via that spell you've got." {helpful} "Sure, why not."
BetaSquirrell 05-10-08, 04:21 PM	I haven't posted in a while, and this isn't ascension on its own, but I thought I'd throw this out there. The swarm subtype has the potential to be greatly abused. If you Polymorph (or better) into a swarm, you gain the subtype. But Alter Self specifically doesn't change subtype. So if you Poly into a swarm, then A.S. into something else, you retain the swarm subtype and become 500 ... 1000 ... 10000 of your base type. For the record, I have a long chain of emails with CustServe. At first, they say this is impossible because you can't Polymorph change into a swarm. But there's a clause in the subtype rules that says a swarm is treated as one creature. At this point, CustServe started talking about DM fiat and lack of documented rules. Anyway, I hope that helps.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 05-10-08, 11:43 PM	The problem is this: If you consider a swarm a single creature for the purposes of polymorph, then you need a RAW means of reducing a swarm into a number of individuals. Because if you say that a swarm is both a single creature and then turn around and say that you can act as a zillion independent creatures, you're contradicting yourself. Unfortunately swarm dispersal rules aren't as explicit as one might like.
BetaSquirrell 05-11-08, 10:43 AM	Yeah, I agree. What I was really suggesting was not to turn yourself into this thing, but some sort of minon. It would be one creature for all intents and purposes, but when it was destroyed (however that would be), it would split into a zillion of its kind. I thought that might have some sort of bizarre synergy with the pudding thing, but I don't know.
WombleHunter 05-11-08, 07:27 PM	keeping in mind the recent FAQ ruling on Pierce Magical Protection vs. Cat's Grace... Hmm, can't seem to fidn this in the current FAQ - can you give me a pointer?
NoldorForce 05-11-08, 11:57 PM	Hmm, can't seem to fidn this in the current FAQ - can you give me a pointer?Sorry, it wasn't the FAQ but Sage Advice instead. Available here (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080501a).
awaken_D_M_golem 05-15-08, 06:22 PM	. . And ... we're done ... 6 3 weeks early. . . (... I'll edit post #51 ... ) So what's the final stats on this puppy? All core dieties "helpful" and cloned-looped-in = ~overdiety Alter Reality - but only within a Time Stop loop for above Wish level stuff. Infinite Skill Checks ala Omnificer/Nanobots type action. Inf Cha and Con, Arbitrarily High for Str, Dex, Int, and Wis. what else ?
WombleHunter 05-19-08, 12:28 PM	Sorry, it wasn't the FAQ but Sage Advice instead. Available here (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080501a). Thanks!
Starless 05-25-08, 08:17 AM	All core dieties "helpful" and cloned-looped-in = ~overdiety This assumes, of course, that the PC will be in some situation where they can use Diplomacy on deities--in the core, really the main ways you interact with them is through spells like Commune. I don't believe the have divine realms or anything defined in the Core. That came in Manual of the Planes, didn't it?
PhaedrusXY 05-28-08, 03:54 PM	This assumes, of course, that the PC will be in some situation where they can use Diplomacy on deities--in the core, really the main ways you interact with them is through spells like Commune. I don't believe the have divine realms or anything defined in the Core. That came in Manual of the Planes, didn't it?Gate mentions how it interacts with deities. It says they don't have to come through it, and that even if they do, they aren't under your control. However, neither of those says that the gate fails to open in front of them. So you should be able to cast a Gate, try to call the deity, and then just talk through the open portal that forms in order to try and use Diplomacy on them. In a core only game, the deity doesn't even have the option of not allowing the portal to open. That is in the rules on deities (D&DG?), not in the core rules.
ddm4377 05-28-08, 08:58 PM	I don't know if this would work, but my :twocents:: if you can use the candle of evocation trick to obtain NI more candles, you could call NI ghosts to bind with you via malevolence. As I said, I don't know if this would work. If I'm wrong, sue me.
Starless 05-29-08, 08:01 AM	Gate mentions how it interacts with deities. It says they don't have to come through it, and that even if they do, they aren't under your control. However, neither of those says that the gate fails to open in front of them. So you should be able to cast a Gate, try to call the deity, and then just talk through the open portal that forms in order to try and use Diplomacy on them. In a core only game, the deity doesn't even have the option of not allowing the portal to open. That is in the rules on deities (D&DG?), not in the core rules. That's a little tricky, really: "This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures." The wording is vague, but really, it's not even sure you'd have enough time to get the standard action (-10) diplomacy check off on the deity.
FriendlyFrog 05-29-08, 04:45 PM	I'm actually not seeing the point in diplomancing the gods. I don't think the core books say anything else about the deities than that they do happen to exist. So there's no real mechanical benefit from having them as your allies, as they're essentially just unstatted NPCs. No divine abilities, not even guaranteed high level spellcasting. Oh, if you are a diplomancer go on ahead and make them fanatic while you're at it, you're going to do it to everyone you meet anyway, but there's no point in bending rules just to reach them in particular.
Endarire 06-02-08, 09:19 PM	Regarding deities: Metamagic rods of Extend are core. Use one with a CL40ish Red Wizard minion to sustain the gate long enough. Deck of Many Things: IF you can get one, put it in a Heward's Handy Haversack. The H3 says, "When the wearer reaches in for a specific item, that item is always on top." A card is an item, though this may be subject to interpretation. Have at it, gentlemen.
Heliomance 06-04-08, 08:37 AM	So what's the final build? Someone make a summary post?
EjoThims 06-04-08, 11:06 AM	Deck of Many Things: IF you can get one, put it in a Heward's Handy Haversack. The H3 says, "When the wearer reaches in for a specific item, that item is always on top." A card is an item, though this may be subject to interpretation. Have at it, gentlemen. :eek: Would still only allow one draw per deck, and even then the specific rules on drawing cards might over rule the general rules for using the haversack.
Starless 06-04-08, 11:46 AM	Regarding deities: Metamagic rods of Extend are core. Use one with a CL40ish Red Wizard minion to sustain the gate long enough. Gate's duration is either Instantaneous or Concentration (Concentration being the duration for the travel version, not the calling version). That won't work.
awaken_D_M_golem 07-11-08, 04:11 PM	... diplomancing the gods ... ... fanatic ... "fanatic" isn't available due to TG's restrictions, i.e. no Epic Handbook. Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request. Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 5,000 XP because of the powerful divine energies involved. Examples of especially powerful miracles of this sort could include the following. * Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting. * Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error. * Protecting a city from an earthquake, volcanic eruption, flood, or other major natural disaster. In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity’s (or alignment’s) nature is refused. Now all those deities that are helpful, are gonna do ~dmfiat of whatever power level. This is about on par with the Vizier and The Fates DoMT cards. And clone the helpful deity, then stick their ?? stuff into NoldorForce's loop.
ShakaUVM 07-12-08, 04:33 PM	I miss 3ed, where you could cast a maximized empowered simulacrum to get a creature more powerful than the original.
awaken_D_M_golem 09-23-08, 06:53 PM	bump
Tshern 11-07-08, 01:16 PM	Bump to avoid the WSoD.
BloodDragon 11-07-08, 06:06 PM	Regarding deities: Metamagic rods of Extend are core. Use one with a CL40ish Red Wizard minion to sustain the gate long enough. Deck of Many Things: IF you can get one, put it in a Heward's Handy Haversack. The H3 says, "When the wearer reaches in for a specific item, that item is always on top." A card is an item, though this may be subject to interpretation. Have at it, gentlemen. Would still only allow one draw per deck, and even then the specific rules on drawing cards might over rule the general rules for using the haversack.Astral Projection hi-jinx once again? But the DoMT trick again breaks the orginal rules lay down. Though I guess this thread is over what with 4th ed quite here. Hillarious read though. :)
Tshern 11-08-08, 02:22 AM	The objective wasn't achieved though, so continuing the challenge ought to be just fine.
TheWizardOfTheCoast 11-11-08, 10:10 AM	I'm am shocked that noone has mentioned this yet. Magic item stacking. I know it might not directly help the PCs ascend to god hood, but still, even the op's first post mentions that lowering the xp value then gaining it back is fine. So spend, spend, spend, then, when you end up playing the only 5th/6th/whatever level character in a 20th level game, you are 1) doing as much good as the other PCs using magic items like '(evard's) black tentacles' at will from a cloak you made yourself, and 2) you get more XP than them because XP scales up for taking on creature with higher CR than your level. :rofl:
AncientDragon 11-11-08, 01:05 PM	Excuse me, may I get a little sum of everything we accomplished here? Maybe I can help :) Thanks
Tshern 11-11-08, 03:44 PM	Infinite HD, infinite Wishes, whatever we can get with Ghost Clow Car trick, infinite Wealth and a bunch of clones at least.
AncientDragon 11-11-08, 03:59 PM	So that trick for acquiring abilities via polymorphing falmiliar et al didn't work?
PhaedrusXY 11-11-08, 06:12 PM	Ok, after having read through this entire thread: What shot down the following? Use Shapechange to get a SU ability, then Polymorph into an elemental with that SU ability, and then clone the elemental. Now you have an elemental with the desired SU ability, and you can Elemental Wildshape into it to gain that ability yourself. Then clone yourself. Now you have an elemental version of yourself with this Su ability innately (I'll now call this "You"). You then make another elemental clone with whatever new Su ability you want (as above), and Elemental Wildshape into that. Since Alternate Form/Elemental Wild Shape says you gain the Su abilities of the new form as well as keeping your own, you get both. So this should offer a way of getting all Su abilities of things that can be affected by Polymorph, and someone came up with a way to get the ones that can't also, I think. So does this work? It should also work for Extraordinary and SLAs, I think. So that should basically be a way to get (almost?) all Su, Ex, and SLAs. With the barghest's feed ability, you should be able to get infinite HD, which gives you infinite alot of other stuff.
ChristopherGroves 11-11-08, 06:27 PM	If polymorphing now makes a new "species" that you can shapechange into as a generic one of that species, then yes. I'm not sold on it though.
PhaedrusXY 11-11-08, 06:35 PM	If polymorphing now makes a new "species" that you can shapechange into as a generic one of that species, then yes. I'm not sold on it though.Polymorphing doesn't, but making an independant copy of the polymorphed form arguably does. You could also make two, stick a girdle of gender-bending on one, and then mate them to form a whole new species, if you're still not convinced. :P I'm not completely clear on how they're "cloning" things, though. Via Similacrum I guess, and the clause about how a familiar's HD are based off your own?
ChristopherGroves 11-11-08, 06:51 PM	Right, you could breed the ligers and then turn into a liger because ligers are awesome and all that ... and now they exist because you've bred them. It isn't fast. It's awfully creepy too.
awaken_D_M_golem 11-11-08, 06:59 PM	More problems... Per inheritance from Alter Self, Shapechange causes you to lose any non-class ability derived (Ex) QUALITY and special attack. That doesn't affect your trick, deathwishjoe, but it bears mentioning. Anyway, to modify your trick, deathwishjoe, I'd roll with polymorphing into an elemental, then cloning, then wildshaping into the elemental, which would guarantee the acquisition of the desired Su trait. To recapitulate more clearly: Shapechange -> get Su trait Polymorph -> elemental, retaining Su traits Clone a copy. Repeat above 3 steps, until we have all the monsters we can copy copied and each stored in an elemental clone. Druid companion Elemental shape into each different elemental, picking up the Su abilities as you go. Clone self as necessary to store accumulated abilities, before continuing. Clone druid companion Assume the form of the now non-unique druid via shapechange I think this was the final form of the loop, so all (sp) and all (su), but (ex) and special attacks are still shaky.
BloodDragon 11-12-08, 11:28 AM	Would be nice if we can define whether we are Cloing or Simulacruming. If the former then I foresee a problem with obtaining a 1 inch cube of “Flesh” from an elemental. If the Latter then how are “We” gaining supreme power? Because by the end of the loop you’ll end up with: One wanna-be-god, One familiar, and Two(?) Simulacrum of your familiar with every monster ability in the game. Shapechanging into your non-unqine Simulacrum is all well and good. Unless the Duration wears out or a failed save on AMF. Also how are we obtaining almost 400ish* uses of Polymorph/ Polymorph Object/ Wildshape and Shapechange, along with the service of a Familiar? Assuming simply Wizard 1 / Druid 19 with a High Int score and a stock pile of Polymorph Scrolls (obtained through broken economy rules)? (*400 being roughly how many monsters there are in Core… a little bit more I think.)
PhaedrusXY 11-12-08, 11:55 AM	Would be nice if we can define whether we are Cloing or Simulacruming. If the former then I foresee a problem with obtaining a 1 inch cube of “Flesh” from an elemental. If the Latter then how are “We” gaining supreme power? Because by the end of the loop you’ll end up with: One wanna-be-god, One familiar, and Two(?) Simulacrum of your familiar with every monster ability in the game. Shapechanging into your non-unqine Simulacrum is all well and good. Unless the Duration wears out or a failed save on AMF.Does it really matter who gets Real Ultimate Power, as long as someone does? Also how are we obtaining almost 400ish* uses of Polymorph/ Polymorph Object/ Wildshape and Shapechange, along with the service of a Familiar? Assuming simply Wizard 1 / Druid 19 with a High Int score and a stock pile of Polymorph Scrolls (obtained through broken economy rules)? (*400 being roughly how many monsters there are in Core… a little bit more I think.)Druid20 with Leadership and a Wiz17 cohort?
BloodDragon 11-12-08, 12:17 PM	Well the difference between Clone and Simulacrum are alot actaully: Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form. Because of how you clone creatures with the clone spell the inheritied text for Shapechange and Polymorph from Alter self make it impossible to use. So Simulacrum is the only way to go... that's assuming you can argue elemental have "Flesh" in the first place.Does it really matter who gets Real Ultimate Power, as long as someone does?Well so long as your in complete command of it, no I guess it doesn't. While it's off conquering you can go and charge admission.
Tshern 11-12-08, 01:24 PM	Druid20 with Leadership and a Wiz17 cohort? And infinite diplomacy.
AncientDragon 11-12-08, 01:37 PM	Can't we use Eschew Materials or Dweomerkeeper to cast Simulacrum without the Flash of the elemental?
PhaedrusXY 11-12-08, 01:41 PM	Can't we use Eschew Materials or Dweomerkeeper to cast Simulacrum without the Flash of the elemental?Dweomerkeeper is not core. Eschew Materials should work.
BloodDragon 11-12-08, 01:50 PM	Sorry. The way I word some things is funny. You do not need any Flesh for a Simulacrum spell (just snow or ice). So simulacrum works just fine by itself. -Deleted- Edit: Yeah I caught my error after I posted, just not fast enough. Also wildshaping isn't affected by the same clause, so depending on how your reading it / stack it, the wildhshape text may overwrite the Alter Self text anyway, there by avoiding the whole situation... but it's good to be aware of it anyway, Edit 2: Shapechange is also personal so you'll be hard pressed to do this trick to your Cohort's Familiar. It will still work on your animal companion, but won't the end uber-Simulacrum will have around 1 hp? Maybe I missed the work around on that.
PhaedrusXY 11-12-08, 01:51 PM	Sorry. The way I word some things is funny. You do not need any Flesh for a Simulacrum spell (just snow or ice). So simulacrum works just fine by itself.You do, actually. You need a bit of toenail, hair, or something. Material Component The spell is cast over the rough snow or ice form, and some piece of the creature to be duplicated (hair, nail, or the like) must be placed inside the snow or ice. Additionally, the spell requires powdered ruby worth 100 gp per HD of the simulacrum to be created.
AncientDragon 11-12-08, 04:34 PM	Ok, so since that flash has not a regardable value, we can cast Simulacrum "Eschewing" it. Now, we have: Limitless HD All the Abilities in the game (All the spells? I think so, for the same cheese) All the gold we need Infinite Con and Dex Am I right?
Tshern 11-12-08, 06:08 PM	Infinite HD amounts to infinite ability scores since you get a stat bump every four levels. Remember saves, skill points, AB, AC and hp too.
Ereth 11-19-08, 05:57 PM	So is this it? have we now gotten all the ex/su abilities in the game? It seem to me that all thats left is to formalize it all in a build
Pauper 11-23-08, 09:41 PM	So does this work? It should also work for Extraordinary and SLAs, I think. So that should basically be a way to get (almost?) all Su, Ex, and SLAs. This will work, as long as you can find at least one creature in the SRD/Monster Manual for each Su, Ex and Sl ability where that ability is not defined as a 'special quality' in the monster write-up: (from Ghola's quote of the Wild Shape rules) The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form. -- Pauper
deneb 11-24-08, 04:05 PM	My only thought when reading this post... So *THIS* is where owlbears came from!!!
awaken_D_M_golem 11-26-08, 04:55 PM	Infinite Diplomacy as defined by Epic, is not on TG's list. Can only go by the PHB. Same problem with Dweomerkeeper, it's not Core. Never-the-less, having a rediculously high Dip check on every Deity makes them Helpful. And NoldorForce's loop gets all (su)s. It also gets a clone of all Deities, looped in. We don't really know what exactly a Deity can do in Core only. But this project can do whatever ALL the deities can do all together. That's at least overdeity status, without having any core reference to what an overdeity can do. Core-core as a restriction, is rather crimpy on my 3.5e thinking style, to say the least.
PhaedrusXY 11-26-08, 05:42 PM	It would be funny to Ascend during the buff round of one of the Fighter vs. Wizard threads. :D
awaken_D_M_golem 12-01-08, 06:27 PM	Huh ?? Oh, yeah ... When can a Fighter "Destroy the Core" ?! :D
vglcat 12-04-08, 04:40 PM	midnight augmentation might be nice
ChristopherGroves 12-04-08, 04:48 PM	This thread is all about the core ... PHB, MM, DMG ... nothing else
vglcat 12-04-08, 05:12 PM	sorry:( i just wanted to be in-cluded sniff sniff