Thrallherd Dweomerkeeper - question re Ardent [Archive] - Wizards Community

Thrallherd Dweomerkeeper - question re Ardent [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
p9522935
10-30-07, 08:55 AM I'm looking to use the Book of Vile Darkness with a Thrallherd-Dweomerkeeper.

The goal is to sacrifice people for craft xp, and then use the craft xp to build golems, and then mentally link the character to the golems, and then use some kind of permanency effect to make the mental links permanent.

(Dweomerkeeper is primarily useful to fairly high level wizards and clerics; if one had the supernatural spell ability, but no xp-burning spells, the Dweomerkeeper would be much less useful.)

If the thrallherd thing works out by providing followers who are also thrallherds, everyone could mentally link up into a giant Hive Mind.

My hard constraint is to minimize the number of levels needed to get both Thrallherd and Dweomerkeeper.

My soft constraint is to be able to take as much advantage of Dweomerkeeper as possible, which probably implies having the ability to cast the spell "Permanency."

Unless I'm totally misreading the rules for Ardent, the following build should get all requirements done by 8th level:
1: Sorc 1 (Precocious Apprentice - can cast 2nd level)
2: Ardent 1 (Healing - can manifest 2nd level)
3: Cerebre 1 (ECL Sorc 2)
4: Cerebre 2 (ECL Sorc 3)
5: Cerebre 3 (ECL Sorc 4)
6: Cerebre 4 (ECL Sorc 5)(sacrifices spell levels as in Complete Champion)
7: Thrallherd 1
8: Dweomerkeeper 1

By sacrificing spell levels, at 6th level, the Sorc 5 gets to cast divine spells. At some point this build would have to acquire Mindlink, probably with the Expanded Knowledge feat at level 6.

A Sorcerer would have to get up to ECL 10 to cast 5th level spells like permanency, but unlike the Wizard, the Sorcerer can sacrifice spell slots to get actual divine spells, not just divine domain powers.

Another way to prepare for Dweomerkeeper is a Cleric with the Magical Training feat. (The following assumes a Wisdom-based build. For Charisma-based, one might use a Favored Soul; for Intelligence-based, one might use an Archivist from Heroes of Horror.)

Then one needs at least one level of psionics, if I understand correctly. If one does not choose Telepath, one will eventually need to expend a feat in order to get Mindlink. As far as I know, it is not possible to develop as a Thrallherd without any prior levels in a psionic class.

At this point I get stuck and I can't figure out whether the Ardent can be used as a psionic class that also qualifies for Dweomerkeeper's divine component. Ardent *looks* like a psionic cleric, but to say that an Ardent with the Magic mantle substitutes for a Cleric with the Magic Domain seems dubious.

If Ardent *does* satisfy the "divine caster with Magic domain requirement," then the rest is easy:
Wizard 1/Ardent 1/Cerebremancer 3/Thrallherd 1/Dweomerkeeper 1

This would get all necessary classes in 7 levels, not 8, *if* it's legal according to RAW.

PEACH.

Thanks in advance.
awaken_D_M_golem
10-30-07, 04:17 PM Not quite.

Ardent needs to have a manifester level of 3 to qualify for a 2nd level power.
Cerebremancer needs two skills of 6 ranks.

Wiz 1 w/ precocious apprentice
Ard 2 w/ practised manifester and the appropriate skills
Cerebremancer X

That works.
Psiotheurgist from Dragon #349, makes for more craziness.

?? Ardent qualifying as "divine", I don't think so. That'd be a houserule. It's specifically described as psionic.

Thrallherd Sacrifice is one of the Campaign Smashers. Fun.
p9522935
10-30-07, 05:40 PM Not quite.

Ardent needs to have a manifester level of 3 to qualify for a 2nd level power.
Cerebremancer needs two skills of 6 ranks.

Wiz 1 w/ precocious apprentice
Ard 2 w/ practised manifester and the appropriate skills
Cerebremancer X

That works.
Psiotheurgist from Dragon #349, makes for more craziness.

I was considering Psychic Theurge, but I hadn't thought of using Dragon Magazine. I'll have to check that out.

Edit:

If you don't mind Dragon #349, the feat Psiotheurgist would help here.
Pick only one school and equivalent discipline, and it counts ML + CL together.
i.e. Telepathy and Enchantment ; Evocation and Psychokinesis ; etc.
Far superior to Practised Manifester in a good build, and makes meta-psionic feats unnecessary.

If Ardent needs just one more hit die to bump its ML up, this opens up many possibilities.

Thanks very much for the heads-up on the skills and the ML of 3.
p9522935
10-30-07, 10:53 PM If Divine Mind can provide the divine spellcaster requirement for Dweomerkeeper, that could allow a Divine Mind/Wizard/Thrallherd/Dweomerkeeper.

Many folks say Ardent is always better than Divine Mind, but if Ardent can't provide the Divine spellcaster requirement, then perhaps this is the one case where Divine Mind is worthwhile.
Callix
10-31-07, 12:56 AM Divine Mind has no spellcasting. Thus, it is not a divine spellcaster. You can't use psionics to qualify for divine caster PrCs. You're going to have to dip Cleric 1 if you want Dweomerkeeper.
p9522935
10-31-07, 10:33 AM Divine Mind has no spellcasting. Thus, it is not a divine spellcaster. You can't use psionics to qualify for divine caster PrCs. You're going to have to dip Cleric 1 if you want Dweomerkeeper.

I agree that you're right. I made my initial post in ignorance.

It just seems very counterintuitive to me that magic and psionics are equivalent for some purposes but not equivalent for prestige class qualifications.

BTW, Complete Champion has some ways to make divine spellcasters out of most base classes, including Sorcerer but not Wizard, so you can use Sorcerer/Ardent or Sorcerer/Telepath to get Dweomerkeeper.

Alternatively, if you go the Cleric route, you'll probably want Psychic Theurge rather than Cerebremancer.
Callix
10-31-07, 03:48 PM I agree that you're right. I made my initial post in ignorance.

It just seems very counterintuitive to me that magic and psionics are equivalent for some purposes but not equivalent for prestige class qualifications.

BTW, Complete Champion has some ways to make divine spellcasters out of most base classes, including Sorcerer but not Wizard, so you can use Sorcerer/Ardent or Sorcerer/Telepath to get Dweomerkeeper.

Alternatively, if you go the Cleric route, you'll probably want Psychic Theurge rather than Cerebremancer.

Re Psi-Magic Transparency: It's a common misconception that, under transparency, psionics and magic are equivalent. Instead, whenever they affect each other (SR/PR, Dispel Magic/Dispel Psionics, AMF/NPF etc) the spell treats all powers as spells, and the power treats all spells as powers. There's no other sense in which they are "equivalent".

Also, if you're a divine caster, you have to use Psychic Theurge instead of Cerebremancer; a Divine Sorcerer, again despite the name, does not cast divine spells.

"Divine spellcasting" doesn't just mean spellcasting with the word "divine" somewhere near it. Divine spellcasting has a very specific meaning in D&D. Divine spells all require a divine focus. They all ignore the spell failure chance from armor, which only affects arcane casters. And, in general, they have less effective damaging effects in return for better healing effects.

In Core, Clerics, Druids, Rangers and Paladins are divine casters. Unearthed Arcana has a Divine Bard variant that casts divine spells. Complete Divine has three new divine caster base classes. Several prestige classes have divine casting from their own lists. The type of spells cast by a class is listed in the first sentence of their Spells entry.
CrimsonDeath
10-31-07, 03:55 PM Divine spells all require a divine focus.

That's not strictly true. The Cure Wounds and Inflict Wounds lines don't, for example. I remember once I ran a Cleric for a session or two when she didn't have access to her holy symbol. It cut my options about in half, but I was still able to fill my spell slots with a fairly decent selection.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
p9522935 10-30-07, 08:55 AM	I'm looking to use the Book of Vile Darkness with a Thrallherd-Dweomerkeeper. The goal is to sacrifice people for craft xp, and then use the craft xp to build golems, and then mentally link the character to the golems, and then use some kind of permanency effect to make the mental links permanent. (Dweomerkeeper is primarily useful to fairly high level wizards and clerics; if one had the supernatural spell ability, but no xp-burning spells, the Dweomerkeeper would be much less useful.) If the thrallherd thing works out by providing followers who are also thrallherds, everyone could mentally link up into a giant Hive Mind. My hard constraint is to minimize the number of levels needed to get both Thrallherd and Dweomerkeeper. My soft constraint is to be able to take as much advantage of Dweomerkeeper as possible, which probably implies having the ability to cast the spell "Permanency." Unless I'm totally misreading the rules for Ardent, the following build should get all requirements done by 8th level: 1: Sorc 1 (Precocious Apprentice - can cast 2nd level) 2: Ardent 1 (Healing - can manifest 2nd level) 3: Cerebre 1 (ECL Sorc 2) 4: Cerebre 2 (ECL Sorc 3) 5: Cerebre 3 (ECL Sorc 4) 6: Cerebre 4 (ECL Sorc 5)(sacrifices spell levels as in Complete Champion) 7: Thrallherd 1 8: Dweomerkeeper 1 By sacrificing spell levels, at 6th level, the Sorc 5 gets to cast divine spells. At some point this build would have to acquire Mindlink, probably with the Expanded Knowledge feat at level 6. A Sorcerer would have to get up to ECL 10 to cast 5th level spells like permanency, but unlike the Wizard, the Sorcerer can sacrifice spell slots to get actual divine spells, not just divine domain powers. Another way to prepare for Dweomerkeeper is a Cleric with the Magical Training feat. (The following assumes a Wisdom-based build. For Charisma-based, one might use a Favored Soul; for Intelligence-based, one might use an Archivist from Heroes of Horror.) Then one needs at least one level of psionics, if I understand correctly. If one does not choose Telepath, one will eventually need to expend a feat in order to get Mindlink. As far as I know, it is not possible to develop as a Thrallherd without any prior levels in a psionic class. At this point I get stuck and I can't figure out whether the Ardent can be used as a psionic class that also qualifies for Dweomerkeeper's divine component. Ardent looks like a psionic cleric, but to say that an Ardent with the Magic mantle substitutes for a Cleric with the Magic Domain seems dubious. If Ardent does satisfy the "divine caster with Magic domain requirement," then the rest is easy: Wizard 1/Ardent 1/Cerebremancer 3/Thrallherd 1/Dweomerkeeper 1 This would get all necessary classes in 7 levels, not 8, if it's legal according to RAW. PEACH. Thanks in advance.
awaken_D_M_golem 10-30-07, 04:17 PM	Not quite. Ardent needs to have a manifester level of 3 to qualify for a 2nd level power. Cerebremancer needs two skills of 6 ranks. Wiz 1 w/ precocious apprentice Ard 2 w/ practised manifester and the appropriate skills Cerebremancer X That works. Psiotheurgist from Dragon #349, makes for more craziness. ?? Ardent qualifying as "divine", I don't think so. That'd be a houserule. It's specifically described as psionic. Thrallherd Sacrifice is one of the Campaign Smashers. Fun.
p9522935 10-30-07, 05:40 PM	Not quite. Ardent needs to have a manifester level of 3 to qualify for a 2nd level power. Cerebremancer needs two skills of 6 ranks. Wiz 1 w/ precocious apprentice Ard 2 w/ practised manifester and the appropriate skills Cerebremancer X That works. Psiotheurgist from Dragon #349, makes for more craziness. I was considering Psychic Theurge, but I hadn't thought of using Dragon Magazine. I'll have to check that out. Edit: If you don't mind Dragon #349, the feat Psiotheurgist would help here. Pick only one school and equivalent discipline, and it counts ML + CL together. i.e. Telepathy and Enchantment ; Evocation and Psychokinesis ; etc. Far superior to Practised Manifester in a good build, and makes meta-psionic feats unnecessary. If Ardent needs just one more hit die to bump its ML up, this opens up many possibilities. Thanks very much for the heads-up on the skills and the ML of 3.
p9522935 10-30-07, 10:53 PM	If Divine Mind can provide the divine spellcaster requirement for Dweomerkeeper, that could allow a Divine Mind/Wizard/Thrallherd/Dweomerkeeper. Many folks say Ardent is always better than Divine Mind, but if Ardent can't provide the Divine spellcaster requirement, then perhaps this is the one case where Divine Mind is worthwhile.
Callix 10-31-07, 12:56 AM	Divine Mind has no spellcasting. Thus, it is not a divine spellcaster. You can't use psionics to qualify for divine caster PrCs. You're going to have to dip Cleric 1 if you want Dweomerkeeper.
p9522935 10-31-07, 10:33 AM	Divine Mind has no spellcasting. Thus, it is not a divine spellcaster. You can't use psionics to qualify for divine caster PrCs. You're going to have to dip Cleric 1 if you want Dweomerkeeper. I agree that you're right. I made my initial post in ignorance. It just seems very counterintuitive to me that magic and psionics are equivalent for some purposes but not equivalent for prestige class qualifications. BTW, Complete Champion has some ways to make divine spellcasters out of most base classes, including Sorcerer but not Wizard, so you can use Sorcerer/Ardent or Sorcerer/Telepath to get Dweomerkeeper. Alternatively, if you go the Cleric route, you'll probably want Psychic Theurge rather than Cerebremancer.
Callix 10-31-07, 03:48 PM	I agree that you're right. I made my initial post in ignorance. It just seems very counterintuitive to me that magic and psionics are equivalent for some purposes but not equivalent for prestige class qualifications. BTW, Complete Champion has some ways to make divine spellcasters out of most base classes, including Sorcerer but not Wizard, so you can use Sorcerer/Ardent or Sorcerer/Telepath to get Dweomerkeeper. Alternatively, if you go the Cleric route, you'll probably want Psychic Theurge rather than Cerebremancer. Re Psi-Magic Transparency: It's a common misconception that, under transparency, psionics and magic are equivalent. Instead, whenever they affect each other (SR/PR, Dispel Magic/Dispel Psionics, AMF/NPF etc) the spell treats all powers as spells, and the power treats all spells as powers. There's no other sense in which they are "equivalent". Also, if you're a divine caster, you have to use Psychic Theurge instead of Cerebremancer; a Divine Sorcerer, again despite the name, does not cast divine spells. "Divine spellcasting" doesn't just mean spellcasting with the word "divine" somewhere near it. Divine spellcasting has a very specific meaning in D&D. Divine spells all require a divine focus. They all ignore the spell failure chance from armor, which only affects arcane casters. And, in general, they have less effective damaging effects in return for better healing effects. In Core, Clerics, Druids, Rangers and Paladins are divine casters. Unearthed Arcana has a Divine Bard variant that casts divine spells. Complete Divine has three new divine caster base classes. Several prestige classes have divine casting from their own lists. The type of spells cast by a class is listed in the first sentence of their Spells entry.
CrimsonDeath 10-31-07, 03:55 PM	Divine spells all require a divine focus. That's not strictly true. The Cure Wounds and Inflict Wounds lines don't, for example. I remember once I ran a Cleric for a session or two when she didn't have access to her holy symbol. It cut my options about in half, but I was still able to fill my spell slots with a fairly decent selection.