Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SirStealth 04-30-07, 11:15 PM	DM question reguarding how this would play out.... Player in my campaign who is level 51 has auto quicken x3 and multispell x2 (I placed a 4 spells per round limit.) He also has developed the epic spell Time Duplicate. Now, he cast time duplicate( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/timeDuplicate.htm ) to bring another version of himself into this round. As the last action of his regular self (after the future self had used up his 4 spells) he cast Time Stop ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm ) claiming that he should be in play for the next round, effectively negating the missing a round of the time duplicate. His argument was that the time stop realtered time before the missing a round came to take affect. Pictured time as a stream the was redirected. Where time duplicate had made a probable future into a certian, time stop altered that certian future before it happened. Now for game play reasons I denied this as im sure you could see the implications. My reasoning rule based was that the Time Duplicate was epic and as the text states it is the most powerful time manipulation available. Thus, time stop couldnt even affect the stream once the higher magic had taken hold. Upon second thought I should have let him cast the time stop and had it fail once he reached the point of disappearance, as he simply wasnt there for the time stop to act upon. Now as the Dm I know I reserve the right to deny his interpertations as it would have a negative impact upon the game, however I would like to know strictly based off the rules, was I correct in asserting that the time duplicate and time stop would not play out the way he wanted? If so or not why?
Senevri 05-01-07, 06:40 AM	Time Stop just makes you move really really fast. What will happen is this: Round 1. Time duplicate is cast and acts. Player casts Timestop and does whatever he does during it. Round 2. Player is snatched back to act as the duplicate
SirStealth 05-01-07, 12:56 PM	An email he sent this morning reguarding the ruling: Thought this was in interesting way to look at time travel: Taken from d20 Magizine rack: "In Temporality, the time continuum is analogous to a forward-flowing stream, with each timeline occupying a current, called a Flow. Travel along a Flow is straightforward time-travel, while travel between Flows involves crossing over to parallel worlds. All such travel is called shifting, with the travelers called shifters. In addition to the Flows, there are temporally neutral locations called Havens, which exist outside of time, and the Badlands, a chaotic realm where shifters who are lost during time travel quickly perish." Considering time, Time Duplicate sets one flow as no longer possible but certian. During the "missing round" the character would be outside of time in a haven. The use of the term "time STREAM" multiple times in the spell description itself facilitates D20 open source support of time being a stream. As such time stop once again would redirect this stream so that time speeds up greatly for the caster. As such here is what should happen: The time stop goes off then the character disappears into a haven. The tempral speed increase which you gained from the transmutation remains and time passes more quickly for you in the haven, thus you are returned seemingly as soon as you left. You disappeared and reappeared in the blink of an eye. Time stop is still active (minus 1 round of time stop being used up in the haven) Thus, you are free to act under the rules of time stop upon your return. example: -i take 2 actions -3rd action cast time duplicate -duplicate takes his 4 actions -my 4th action i cast time stop and roll a 4 (4+1=5 rounds) -i disappear into the haven and furture self goes poof per the spell. time stop is a self affecting transmutation that speeds time up greatly just for me (it only seems to the others that they are slower but in reality its just me being faster) -i spend 1 round for me in the haven, which is but a blink of the eye to those left behind since time is greatly sped up for me. -i return from the haven with 4 rounds remaining on my time stop. OR the future self should be under the effects of time stop once he enters the first round.
PhaedrusXY 05-01-07, 01:39 PM	I think either he would gain the benefits of the Time Stop before he dissappeared, exactly as Senevri suggested (my preferred choice), or he would "dissappear" for one of the "virtual" rounds of the Timestop. Timestop basically speeds you up so that you are allowed to make several rounds worth of actions within the timespan of a single round. If you use the "normal" time as the frame of reference for the Time Duplicate spell, then he shouldn't dissappear until after the Timestop ends. If you use the caster's frame of reference, he should dissappear for one "virtual round" during the Timestop, but otherwise still gain the full benefits of the spell. Saying his Timestop is "disrupted" is an unfairly harsh ruling with absolutely no basis within the rules.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 05-01-07, 08:20 PM	This is all very simple to adjudicate if you subscribe to my "Time Theory". The reference frame of those affected by a durative effect is the fram which is used to measure duration. For more explicit details see "Time Theory" in my signature. In this case, we have the following: 1. Time duplicate: -> causes next round of caster to be skipped. 2. Time stop -> caster enters an alternative reference frame where rounds pass more quickly Conclusion: the caster misses the next round INSIDE HIS TIMESTOP. If his time stop lasts for 4 rounds, he would only be able to act 3 rounds of it. After he exists his time stop he is free to act as normal.
SirStealth 05-02-07, 03:36 AM	If it were allowed that the time stop is allowed and happens before the start of round 2 (the round the player is supposed to be missing) I would have to agrue that this is the most broken spell combination in D&D ever. I'll explain: Feats- auto quicken x3 multispell x2 (4 spell per round house limit) Spells- Time Duplicate (EPIC) Time Stop Delayed Blast Fireball Now I use an alternate form of keeping track of spell slots in the campaign. I use a mana system where a 9th lvl spell cost 9 mana to cast, a 1st lvl spell cost 1 mana to cast and a 0 lvl spell cost 1/2 a mana to cast, etc. You still have to prepare your number of spells you areable to prepare each day. You mana pool is based off how many you can prepare, with the player gaining mana for each spell per day as it cost to cast it. Ultimately it allows for casting more higher lvl spells at the expense of using up your spells for the day (mana) much faster. This has worked so far simply because i dont make rest stops as readily available, so there is still risk of buring through all your mana too fast. Now with this system picture this combination using the time stop and time duplicate, keeping in mind that the caster has 1 standard action and 3 quick actions every round with auto quicken x3 and multispell x2, all spells that can be quickened up to 9th level are by auto quicken: Round 1: 1st action Current self (CS): cast time duplicate 2nd action CS: Direct damage spell 3rd action CS: Direct damage spell 1st action future self(FS): Direct Damage spell 2nd action FS: Direct damage spell 3rd action FS: Direct damage spell 4th action CS: cast time stop (rolls a 4 +1 = 5 rounds) ----CS In timestop cast (4x5=20) 20 delayed blast fireballs at 20d6 each--- 4th action FS: cast time stop (rolls a 4+1 = 5 rounds) ----FS In timestop cast (4x5=20) 20 delayed blast fireballs at 20d6 each--- ---round ends...both disappear for 1 round. Absolutely sick and game breaking if a player has the potetial mana to do it, which this guy does at 51 wiith his feat choices, improved spell capacity never looked so good... Consider a 20th lvl wizard would have 158 mana, assuming no feats for extra spell slots.(He is 51 and i still treat the epic spells per day as slots not mana)assume 9 mana per timestop cast for a minus 18 mana = 140 mana left delayed blast fireball = 7 mana to cast. Thats still 20 delayed blast fireballs the player could get off in 1 round of a time stop. Thats assuming the caster has no feats or other things that add spell slots/mana. 20 delayed blast fireballs is 400 d6 DAMAGE. 400d6! Double that since according to time duplicate you dont use up the resources yet for the future self. 800d6 in 1 round. plus whatever direct damage you did previous to the time stop. I for one think this is to strong to allow. Even under a normal spell slot system a player could take the approiate feats and abilities (able to trade higher lvl spell slots for lower) to get at least 12 lvl 7 spell slots by 51. That in itself would be 24x 20d6 dmg with time duplicate and both selves time stoping before the end of the round. But as you guys are saying, strictly from a rule standpoint, I was wrong and the timestop should be allowed in the round.
Think0028 05-02-07, 10:34 AM	2 things: 1) Most people do not have the necessary 12 6th level spell slots that you recommend. 2) If the guy is level 51 and only pulling off 800d6 damage, he is focusing on something wrong. That's an average of 2800 damage. That can be blocked by spell resistance. If your enemies can't survive 800d6 fire damage that can be blocked by spell resistance, something is VERY wrong. At level 51, things are ridiculously powerful. I'm surprised if he isn't a deity by then. This is practically nothing.
SirStealth 05-02-07, 12:13 PM	Guys character in short: Blue dragon who typicaly walks around polymorphed as a high elf as he usualy dosent have room or it isnt approiate to be in dragon form as large as he is. lvl 1-39 advanced in age to a Great Wurm. 40-51 advanced rules for aging a dragon. Most of his aging took place in an alternate world where time went much faster. way we worked it I allowed him to take the given 17 levels of sorcerer as wizard/WoW mage. Under the formula we used at 51 he winds up being a 25th level wizard/Mage who can research and take some cleric spells that are cast as arcane spells. Feats: Imp Initiative Blue Dragon Lineage Spell penetration Quicken Spell Spell Breaker:World of Warcraft rpg Feedback: WoW rpg Combat reflexes Greater Spell penetration Auto Quicken x3 Multispell x2 Dire Charge Epic Spellcasting Improved spell capacity x3 Spell Stowaway-Heal Bonus Draconic Feat- Innate of Io (His rank within his society allows this bonus feat) Epic Spells: Time Duplicate Summon Perm Brachyurus Call of the Trumpet (summons 2 lvl 14 trumpet archon's) Typicaly right before comabat he cast Assay Resistance upon himself that last 25 rounds for a +10 on caster level checks for overcoming spell resistance. So his checks are usualy 25+2+2+10 +d20. Vs What we face he usualy breaks through any spell resistance. (most villians are in the 30-40 spell resistance range.) This guy can dish out some nice damage but nothing near 800d6 without manipulating time. He has a little over 1200 hps. If i Allowed that kind of damage to be delt in a round them the mobs could start doing the same and he couldnt survive.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 05-02-07, 07:15 PM	Take a look at the pseudonatural template. It grants so much spell resistance it's crazy. Also look at some of teh epic golems... And hell... just some elemental immunities would cover a lot of those cheap direct damage spells.
SirStealth 05-04-07, 07:29 PM	I allowed it and last session he proved me right in that it was sick. Something i forgot to account for, He has the WoW mage spell Brilliance Aura (spellcraft check dc30 + twice the spells level which he easily makes last 1 rd per caster level.) This allows every spell he or an ally cast within 20 ft of him to be cast without expending a spell slot (mana in this case) with a successful spellcraft check. He did Time Duplicate, 2 disjunctions to clear buffs off enemies from current self, 3 from future self them timestop with both. One roll was a 3+1 the other a 4+1. With this he droped 36 maximized delayed blast fireballs. Per 16th lvl mage ability, 1 spell slot of each lvl per day to cast mage type spells automaximized without adding to the spell lvl. This spell slot was never used up with the brilliance aura up and running. He rotated the energy type based of the mage ability to shift the elements at will. 5616 dmg to every target withing the area. A decent amount was resisted but it still pretty much ended the encounter before it really began. Now im almost forced to throw enemies at the party with insane spell resistance every session, or immunities to all elements.
Think0028 05-05-07, 11:24 PM	Something i forgot to account for, He has the WoW mage spell Brilliance Aura (spellcraft check dc30 + twice the spells level which he easily makes last 1 rd per caster level.) This allows every spell he or an ally cast within 20 ft of him to be cast without expending a spell slot (mana in this case) with a successful spellcraft check. AGAIN. 30+Spell level is ridiculously easy to make, and then he has free spells. The problem is not Time Duplicate + Time Stop, the problem is all this free mana he's getting. And also: CR 51. Everything should have very easy access to elemental resistance/immunity or tons of spell resistance. If they don't, they'd be dead at 21.