Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LordofProcrastination 07-05-05, 07:51 AM	The Nanobots Cometh Please enjoy this new method of optimization. If you don't feel like reading in detail, skip straight to the "World Records Build" section for the rockem-sockem bits. The Basic Idea Obtain and power a massive horde of individual allies ("nanites"). Program these nanites with the capability to help you do anything through ally-enhancement abilities. Order them all to use the "Aid Another" option in the manner you see fit. Reap game-shattering benefits. The Roles (or "What You Need to Become Nano-Enhanced") So, we need: 1) A way to create/summon nanites (for simplicity, called "powering" nanites), and 2) A way to make these nanites cabable of passing the DC 10 skill or attack roll check necessary for each to contribute a +2 bonus to those they are helping (called "programming" the nanites). I know that the vast majority of builds on the CO board are single-character builds, but as you can see here, two roles are necessary. A single character can fulfill both roles well enough, but D&D nanotechnology becomes even more potent when the whole party becomes involved. Let's work with "powering" and "programming" methodologies first, and then move on to integrate these capabilities into characters. I. Powering your Nanites After a long search and comparison with numerous methods, I have arrived at the conclusion that the best way of obtaining numerous individual allies which operate according to your will is use of the Animate Objects spell. Animate Objects animates one object of size Small or smaller per caster level with a duration of 1 round/level, and is a 6th level Bard/Cleric spell. Though the duration is limited, animate objects grants the versatility of being able to customize the objects you animate in size, capability, and flavor (more on customization later). Permanence is an option for 3000 experience points, an unsavory amount reserved only for those of high in-game need for exceedingly low-preparation action and xp to burn. II. Programming your Nanites However spunky, animated objects lack ranks in any skill whatsoever, and their dismal ability scores render them highly unlikely of successfully aiding characters (via the DC 10 skill/attack roll). This is where the Exemplar prestige class steps in. Found in Complete Adventurer, the Exemplar has every skill on its class list, great skill points, low entry requirements, and above all, the "Lend Talent" ability. Lend Talent allows the Exemplar to take a penalty on his/her skill checks up to his/her Exemplar class level while allies gain a competence bonus commensurate to this penalty. The details are straightforward, but the essential bit of this ability is that it offers said bonus to all allies within 30 ft of the Exemplar. As a kicker, once activated, this power remains effective for as long as your character isn't snoring or dead. Suddenly, all of those nanites can make their DC 10 checks, netting a +2 bonus per nanite to the checks of whomever the nanites are gathered about (e.g. the "help-target"). With enough nanites, the net bonus from all of the Aid-Another actions not only will outweigh the penalties the Exemplar suffers, but will quickly provide a stellar advantage in whatever skill the nano-programmer desires. The Mechanics of Nanobot Assistance (or "How to Make it Work") I. Sizing: In order to Aid Another (skill-wise), it is necessary for the nanites to be in a position to help. As Tiny-sized or smaller creatures with no reach whatsoever, most nanites will have to move into the same square as the help-target. Since the number of creatures that may fit unhindered in a square with a larger creature is determined by the nanite's size, it is necessary to make one's nanites the minimum size possible, Fine. 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square with another creature of size Small or greater, so obtaining up to a +200 bonus will rarely be restricted by the help-target's size. However, in order to obtain the help of more than 100 nanites, one must somehow increase size (through any manner of transmutation spells, psionics, or abilities) such that s/he occupies multiple squares. No real trouble here, just a consideration. II. The Check The Aid-Another option is incredibly potent when taken on a large scale. Since most Nanite-Programmers have 9 or more levels in Exemplar, and thus give their subjects +9 on any skill they choose, success is literally guaranteed for 100% of involved nanites. For a single casting of Animate Objects at 20th level, this means +40 unnamed on nearly any check. However If the skill involves the Strength ability, because a Fine Animated Object's Str is 6, percentage of successfully contributing nanites drops several percentiles (dependant on exact Exemplar level). Still, with enough nanites, the chance of DC 10 failure will remain low enough that character will still gain huge bonuses. On the Attack/AC side of things, the numbers-game figures more prominently. Using size-regression from the Tiny Animate Object found in the Monsters Manual (via Monsters Manual chart 4-2), we find that Fine nanites have an attack bonus of +5, meaning that only 50% on average will pass. For the average "CL 20" animate objects scenario, though, this still means +20 to AC or attack, hardly anything to scoff at for a 6th level spell functioning over multiple rounds. As a side-note to the Attack/AC use of nanotechnology, having your nanites move into an opponent's square does produce an attack of opportunity. Actually, this isn't much of a bad thing. Out of a horde of 100-something nanites, it's doubtful that even a Combat-Reflexing two-weapon-fighter could put a meaningful dent in your helpers (especially if they're adamantine), and in even attempting the feat would waste valuable Attacks of Opportunity per round. Optimal Use of Nanites (or "What to do Now that You can get +200 on Anything") Time to whip out the Epic usages of nearly every skill in the book. :D With nanobots on their side, players gain pretty amazing skill and attack boosts. As always, there are ways to really make these high bonuses work for you. Here are a number of great ways to synergize (either for your Programmer/Powerer or for teammates) with Nanotechnology. Perform Checks are used in a number of prestige classes not only to access abilities, but to set save DCs or even damage. With a chorus of nanobots humming along, you can use the Stormsinger's "thunderstrike" to deal check-result damage (Frostburn), heal damage and block spells/songs with a Seeker of the Song (Complete Arcane), create damaging area-effects with a singular reason to actually keep taking Sublime Chord levels, or mix in some Virtuoso to disrupt spellcasting. Concentration is also a surprisingly good choice for the Programmer's lend talent aura. Spellcasters can really benefit from truly assured spellcasting, extra speed through Mobile Spellcasting or Extraordinary Concentration. If there's a Kensai in the team, boosting Concentration can mean the same thing as boosting Reflex saves. The other miscellaneous choices are truly only limited by player ingenuity. The Justicar's hogtie ability is a little strange but handy, sniping with Hide is utterly reliable for a whole team once more, Intimidate can become feasible with high level opponents (via Intimidating Rage), and a Spellcraft-enhanced Incantrix will never be able to thank his nanites enough. It's important to remember that a Nano-Programmer can activate and maintain up to 4 enabling lend-talent auras at a time (depending again on class level), so splitting up nanites to help a number of characters in a variety of tasks is an excellent option. As long as the golden 30-ft-radius is respected, nanotechnology can effectively enhance the actions of a whole team. World Records Builds The true beauty of Nanotechnology is that it doesn't involve simply exploiting some small broken loophole in the game. Moderate use of helpful hordes can be integrated into almost any challenging game without ruining the experience for non-optimized players. In fact, the very versatility and potentially multi-partisan nature of nanotechnology means that everybody in a team can get involved and gain benefits. The truth that Nanotechnology is pure 3.5, non-psionic, and doesn't involve hours of self-flagellation with an electric sword (vis a vis Shambling Mound and Zeugalak :rolleyes: ) means a lot for playability and power. I. Builds that Power Nanites (still collecting more from suggestions) - Changeling Wizard 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 2/Incantrix 3/Recaster 3/Incantrix 4-10 - Cleric 5/Sacred Exorcist 2/Contemplative 1/ II. Builds that Program Nanites - Bard7/Virtuoso 3/Exemplar 10 - Bard 5/Stormsinger 6/Exemplar 9 - Paladin 5/Kensai 6/Exemplar 9 III. Builds that Power AND Program - Wiz 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 2/ Incantrix 4/Exemplar 9 - Artificer 11/Exemplar 9 IV. World Records Build Classes: Cleric 5/ Dweomerkeeper 5/ Contemplative 1/ Exemplar 9 Race: Kenku (Monster Manual III, LA +0, Great Ally) Domains: Magic and Planning, then Good via Contemplative Base Caster Level: 19 Feats: Extend Spell (Planning Domain), Magical Training (1st), Divine Spell Power (3rd), Divine Metamagic (Extend, 6th), Consecrate Spell Trigger (9th), Skill Focus (your choice) (12th) Practiced Spellcaster (Cleric, 15th), Practiced Spellcaster (Cleric, 18th) Items: Staff of the Once-Immobile Minions [x2] (detailed below, 55,688 gp), Night Sticks [x29] (Libris Mortis, 217,500 gp total), Strand of Prayer Beads (25,800 gp), Orange Ioun Stone (30,000 gp), Item of Cha +6 (36,000), Stone of Good Luck (DMG, 20,000 GP), Tome of Leadership and Influence +4 (DMG, 110,000 GP), Breastplate of Command (25,400 gp), Circlet of Persuasion (4,500), Contingent Giant Size (13,300 gp), Bag of Holding Type IV (10,000 gp), Metamagic Rod of Quicken (x3) (225,000 gp) ---- 734,488 spent (still under the typical 20th level limit) Staff of the Once-Immobile Minions (27,844 gp) ---Animate Objects 375*CL 11 * SL 6 = 24,750 gp ---Mage Hand 375*CL 11*SL 1 *0.75 = 3094 gp Turning Check Calculations (for Divine Spell Power) +11 Cha (boosted by tome, enhancement, level bonuses, 32-point focusing) + 2 (breastplate of command) + 1 luck (luckstone) +2 (knowledge:religion) +3 competence (circlet of persuasion) +3 (Divine Spell Power) = +22 turning check, auto-maximizes the +4 bonus possible Preparation: Rounds 1-3: Activate Lend Talent ability three times, each for a different skill of choice. Round 4: Activate Bead of Karma. Rounds 5-34: Cast Animate Objects via the Staff of Once-Immobile Minions. Every time, Extend it with Divine Metamagic and activate with Consecrate Spell Trigger, giving each casting the Good descriptor. Uses own caster level, which is enhanced from 19 to 29 through Items (Orange Ioun Stone and Bead of Karma, +5), the Good Domain ability (+1), and Divine Spell Power (+4 through automatic maximum success on each turning check). The turning attempts necessary for the Consecrate Spell Trigger feat, the Divine Metamagic Feat, and the Divine Spell Power feat are supplied via Nightsticks. Rounds 35-53: Keep casting Animate Object enhanced as before, but without Extending it with Divine Metamagic. 54-62: Switch over to backup staff during this period. Standard-action animate objects continue. Commence casting an additional version per round by use of your Metamagic Rods of Quicken. Round 63: Laugh like a mad scientist as a free action, activating the Contingent Giant size, which increases personal size to Colossal. Cast Animate Objects once as a standard action and once with the last charge of the last Metamagic rod. Round 64: Order all nanites to "Aid" you on a skill check chosen from the three lend talent auras in action. Since you are colossal and occupy 25 squares, all of your minions can touch you. At this point, there are 66 separate castings of Animate Object in play, each cast at CL 29, so some 1,914 Fine-sized nanobots help out, each supplying +3 to your check/roll (via Great Ally racial ability) for a total bonus of +5,742 to almost any skill you desire. Optionally, this could also mean a +4,593 bonus to AC or Attack Yes, it's that powerful when you take nanotechnology to the extreme. I'm fairly certain that this busts just about every Skill bonus, AC, or Attack Bonus record on the Character Optimization board. That said, there are still more places to go with Nanotechnology. Sans the giant build-up, nanite helpers can provide a boost of optimized help which doesn't necessarily break the game. I'm turning to the CO board's expertise to develop new, optimized Nanite Power and/or Nanite Programming builds, particularly in the realm of boosting nanite attack values and making use of on-call uber skill checks. I'll be posting additional content regularly, but your comments and suggestions are most welcome. To get things started on the more sane and accessible side of Nanotechnology: Alternate Methods of Nano-Power: (or "How Else to Obtain Your Miniature Horde") Undead: Who wouldn't want an undead army that terrifies your enemies AND helps out around the lair? - Strengths: High thematic potential, well-documented perfect mental control of minions, undead animation tends to have nigh-infinite durations, necromancy synergizes well with Dragon's theurgic feats. - Weaknesses: Difficulty of procuring numerous Fine bodies at whim, social difficulties that arise from walking into town with a whirlwind of zombie bats, the innumerable spells, classes, and feats designed to kill undead which tend to work particularly well against low-HD minions, Animate Undead costs 25 gp per corpse. Yuck. More efficient methods include use of the "Fell Animate" feat from Libris Mortis, or the Plague of Undead, and Animate Legion spells. - Getting it Done: If you're patient, use the Pale Master's 1/day componentless animate dead to slowly build an army. If you're impatient, carry bags of (bat) holding and use Fell Animate to kill and raise yourself a swarm at will. Plus, there's always the Dweomerkeeper's supernatural spell ability to skip out on costs. Animals: The original (hamburger) helpers. - Strengths: Reliability of duration of minion support, cheap, social acceptability, fuzzy wuzzy - Weaknesses: Zero protections and low hp, skittish nature in-character, necessity of cranking up Handle Animal (unless you want to train bats for weeks at a time before they become of any use) - Getting it Done: Boosting your Handle Animal skill through any number of conventional means. Nothing terribly odd here. Planar Allies/Planar Binding/Spirit Binding: Borrowing minions from other realms = not likely to win much favor with anyone. - Strengths: Your choice of assorted pint-sized outsiders and elementals, possible synergy through creature-particular special abilities - Weaknesses: Generally unstable and unwilling servitors, possible undisclosed costs of summoning, spells in question summon only 1 or 1-4 creatures at a time - Getting it Done: The spells are on your primary casting list. Move along... Unseen Servant: Crazy as it seems, these nigh-forgotten helpers can pull off nanite behaviour. According to the PHB, an unseen servant "can't perform any task that requires a skill check with a DC higher than 10 or that requires using a skill that can't be used untrained." Thus they can make the exactly DC 10 check necessary to aid another. - Strengths: Available at low levels, invisible and unobtrusive, huge duration, formless and shapeless nature leaves it up to you to determine how many can fit into one area, crazy arcane flavor - Weaknesses: Inability to help out with AC or "to hit" rolls due to spell constraints, specific limitations on skill-help, extreme fragility (6hp, no protections) - Getting it Done: The spell Servant Horde from Complete Arcane is a 5th level conjuration that produces 2d6+1/level (max +15) of these handy fellows. For the green at heart, Wood Wose from Complete Divine is a druid's unseen servant spell Boguns: From the Complete Divine spell Beget Bogun, you can obtain a Tiny helper for only 25 xp. So cute :rolleyes: - Strengths: A high intelligence means that Marshal auras could apply, permanent duration, - Weaknesses: 25 xp cost each, 8-hour creation time each - Getting it Done: Just cast the spell. Boguns are probably not for the combat-minded, but if duration and versatility are your hot-buttons, begetting 20 boguns costs 500 less experience points than casting permanence on a 20th caster-level Animate Objects... Gate: For those taking the role of the Nano-empowerer, this spell can be top notch in temporary low-cost nanite summoning. - Strengths: HD-based multiple-creature-summoning potential, high customization, neato special effects - Weaknesses: 9th level spell means inaccessible for some and expensive to multi-cast for others, still tough to find well-protected small minions in any MM book - Getting it Done: If you're canny, the xp/monetary payment option for prolonged service could be potent with the right in-game haggling. Prying Eyes: 1d4 + Caster level Fine-sized constructs with build-in Hide and Spot capabilities? Sound great. - Strengths: Lower level spell than animate objects, natural Spot and Hide bonuses, hour-per-level duration, spell-related reporting abilities - Weaknesses: Low combat durability (1 hp and no protections), slightly questionable rules mandate for non-spying activities - Getting it Done: One dash of 9th-level-or-higher wizard, apply metamagic (twin, repeat) liberally Alternate Methods of Nano-Programming: (or "How Else to Make your Horde Useful") - Marshal: From first glance, taking levels in marshal seems like a quicker and more powerful way of enhancing your numerous companions via the assorted minor auras. However, the drawback appear rather quickly: only one skill-boosting aura can be in effect at once (i.e. no "spotting" AND "moving silently" at the same time), the auras only apply to allies with intelligence of 3 or higher (ruling out the vast majority of time-and-cost effective nanobot sources) - Stat-Boosting: A variety of class abilities and spells can be used to affect allied creatures base abilities, the bonuses from which can be used to make skill checks or attack rolls to help out the Nano-enhanced team. The trouble is finding a balance between the types of boosts one can apply to large numbers of allies, the duration of both the enhancers and the nanobots themselves, and the relative utility of simply saving said spells for yourself. I haven't done the complete research on this particular topic yet, but my impression that stat-boosters that work on a truly significant scale are few and far between, forcing nano-enhanced players to deal with mere percentages of their drones making the checks necessary to help out each time. - Warchanter: At the 10th level of this Complete Warrior prestige class, the Inspire Legion ability allows every creature within 60ft to adopt the base attack bonus of the highest BAB creature amongst them. Coupled with a +2 bonus on damage rolls, this ability automatically makes a nanoswarm battle-ready and highly damaging. Since this ability can be obtained by 15th level, versatility-minded programmers can still sneak in the essential 4 levels of Exemplar for skill aid. FAQ (Work in Progress) Q: Aren't nanobots or nanites or nanoagents specific technical entities that aren't adequately described by your middling-sized little constructs? A: Yep. Consider this a D&D approximation -- I understand the distinction, but isn't it more fun to call these particular miniscule swarms of helpers nano-something? Q: If caster level is the limiting factor for the number of objects animated and the duration of the spells, why haven't you used a tricked-out Use Magic Device check to crank out hundreds of nanites with each casting? A: Unfortunately, the proper use of UMD in relation to staves (a popular source for Animate Objects castings is still hotly contested. Let's not dip our fingers into an acid-filled wishing-fountain for loose change when the mint's already open. Q: Could the Dual Nano-Power-Programmer beat the H.I.V.E. at poker? A: Depends on who casts cheat first. :P (New Questions and Answers) Q: What about the fact that animated objects and undead (among other nanobot types) are mindless? Doesn't that mean they can't use any skills? A: The short answer is yes, they can use skills according to D&D rules. It's a matter of having non-Intelligence as opposed to zero intelligence. The detailed explanation can be found here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6625735&postcount=58). Q: How about "Trained Only" skills? Can those be used too? A: Yep, the Aid Another action allows creatures to help out with skills they normally wouldn't be able to fully comprehend on their own. The one full-skill exception is Use Magic Device, the only skill for which Nanobots do not claim the world record. For an in-depth reading and explanation of these rules, check out my clarification further down on this page. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6616234&postcount=14) Q: I read the Animate Objects spell in the SRD/PHB and it doesn't say anything about being able to Aid. What's the deal? A: The deal is that animate objects spell creates "Animated Objects," full creatures that obey the caster's every command to the best of their abilities. The spell references back to the Monster Manual for complete details, and if you're interested in reading thorough rules explanations, you can find them in this thread, here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6618808) and there (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6625735&postcount=58). Q: I want to make reeeeeaaaallly miniscule nanobots using animate objects, but the Monster Manual doesn't have a direct entry for Diminuative or Fine animated objects. Are itty bitty buddies even allowed? What can I do? A: Luckily, the D&D creators foresaw sizing issues like this and made it easy to resize or create variably large creatures. The easiest and quickest way is to use the sizing table from page 291 of the Monster Manual. Just run it in reverse for making things smaller. Once more, a full rules discussion can be found anon (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6656052&postcount=70). Q: World records are neat, but isn't this stuff just mechanical jibberty jabber? I mean, could anyone actually use nanobots? A: As much as I love making game designers cry, the real intention of this thread is to introduce a new way of using well-known but under-used game options for all-around optimization. If massive temporary hordes aren't for you, check out the Alternate Methods sections to mix and match nanotechnology tricks to fit your character concepts and needs. Special Credit goes out to Carnivore and his animal helper thread which got me started along the path to ruin :cool:
LordofProcrastination 07-05-05, 07:52 AM	Nanobot Flavor: Skills An adamantine sphere is hardly the ideal source of aid for a variety of skills, but then again, animated objects (or animated basic geometric shapes for that matter) hardly represent the breadth of nanotechnology possibilities. End result: A need for inventive, flavorful nanites or interesting in-game interpretations/schemes for existing nanobots to make things work. Here are are variety of options drawn from the fertile minds of this thread's contributors. All-Around Skillful Nanobots (LordofProcrastination) Looking for something? Animate a collection of glass shards or lenses that amalgamates into a 360-degree variable-magnification micro/tele-scope for all your Spot or Search checks. Maybe a spellcraft check or simply smart instructions could have your unseen servants bend the light passing through them a bit for a similar affect. How about stealth? I'm a fan of camouflage-colored cloth strips that muffle your steps (Move Silently) and blend your entire team into the shadows (Hide). Boguns, prying eyes, and Bats already have hide-bonuses, so they're ready to roll from the get-go. Mobility skills like Jump, Balance, Tumble, and Climb fare well enough with the image of hundreds of invisible, supportive pressures, or zestified by a set of well-trained springs. Nanobots are probably toughest to sell when it comes to mental efforts. Then again, in a magical world, nonscientific explanations that would come off as New Age fluff in real life could hold serious weight in a superstitious world with multiple corresponding sub-systems/explanatory models of power derivation. Who knows, maybe a massive array of antennae really is the thing to focusing one's mind (Autohypnosis or Knowledge checks). Acupuncture needles or massage balls could relax the body into ignoring outside distractions, improving Concentration. For mystical types, rare-material objects or inherently magical minions could be commanded to subtlety redirect natural flows of magic to improve one's own arcane efforts (Spellcraft). Precision skills definitely work well with the right tools. Does an animated swarm of surgical instruments (Heal, Disable Device, Forgery, Open Lock) sound like modern robo-mechanical assistance or a pack of interns to anybody else? Charismatic efforts most likely are best attuned to the personal flavor of the character as well. For some, a scintillating array of semiprecious stones swirling harmoniously around one's body could be just the thing to distract (Bluff) or awe (Diplomacy) potential targets. Intimidating nanobots might hearken back to surgical tools or other spiky-looking threatening hordes, or just freak enemies out with the sense that they're being silently watched from every angle (prying eyes or unseen servants). I'd mention the potential of having your own thousand-piece band/chorus/orchestra for accompaniment, but I'm guessing that most Nano-Bards are already having a ball Performing for their friends and enemies. The Crystal Connection (Tempest Stormwind) I'd suggest crystalline objects for anything transparent (by the way, multiple lenses = powerful microscope. Given how loupes and lenses boost Appraise, imagine what this could do. For objects by weight, simply look at the various Strength scores of these devices, or what weight they can support before they drop). This has two advantages: 1) Psionic effects have an affinity for crystals. This means that you can better explain some of the mental affinities as generated psionic resonance (see the Shards (http://srd.pbemnexus.com/psionicItemsU.html) for samples of this), and (due to psionics-magic transparency) accomplish similar feats to your supernatural ones listed above. 2) There's already an easy way to carry all of these, although it takes a wee bit of revising -- Hover Field (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20021220a). A sample revision is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=3505055&postcount=95), although I would have handled it differently (for instance, it's not out of range of a 1st level power to move "one object per level" subject to a total weight limit, which is itself augmentable). This means you aren't limited to the speed of the nanites, and you can move them as YOU see fit (if you revise the power that way). Healthy Tidbit (Lokiyn) How small can you make these animated objects? if you could get them small enough then for heal checks you could insert 100's of tiny beads or tiny star shaped bits of biodegradable material that help you repair the body from the inside out. (LoP Interjection-- due to the flexibility of D&D sizing options, this neat option is technically feasible for the less-than-squeamish.) Tackling the Tricky Stuff (Zubon) "A sheetlike object can fly (clumsy maneuverability) at half its normal speed." Remember when justifying to your DM that most of the objects cannot fly. The image of hundreds of floating adamantine balls is appealing, and one can see how they would easily assist in Jump, for example ("I have thousands of metal spheres supporting me as I leap to the top of the mountain"), but they might have issues since they only roll about. They do not hover. They could stack atop one another easily enough (Climb check, here we come!), but there are limits to what a sphere can do. Maybe use Fabricate to make thousands of Fine adamantine pixies. I hope you maxed ranks in Craft(Sculpting). Is a basket sufficiently sheetlike, or can the lid flutter? I like the idea of Craft(Basketweaving) being a source of nigh-endless power. At any rate, remember that we live and die by the rules, and the rules may not give your animated objects the abilities that spring to mind. Your adamantine spheres can, however, do many things, especially given that they can roll, hop (Jump), and stack themselves. Improving your AC and aiding an attack seem to be easy to justify. Hey, there are thousands of spheres tripping you up, and you plan to dodge? You plan to hit me through this mound of metal? Hide is another potential issue. It is easy to justify your hiding, especially given that you could have total cover from a layer of animated objects. The issue is their hiding, since they are using Aid Another rather than Hide. The same could easily apply to Move Silently. Sure, you are silent and invisible, but the orcs noticed thousands of scuttling objects, so they are going to investigate. You get around many of these issues with Unseen Servants or carefully selected objects, but remember that animated objects only have so much power infused into them. If you can give them better shapes or mobility, your explanatory ability goes up very quickly. Great idea with the magical pseudo-science, by the way. Super antennae, animated crystals, magic-channeling matter... yes yes, we can work with this... Perhaps a useful table would be a list of ideas for what sorts of objects would work well for each purpose. A few thoughts: Survival (Get along in the wild): Animate every bit of (dead) wood, rock, debris, etc. in the area. These will dig up edible mushrooms, point the way to water, swarm over small game, etc. The poor deer, being attacked by hundreds of animated leaves... Your skill check of 1d20 +23 (ranks) -9 (lend talent) +3 (Skill Focus) +4 (Skill Artistry) +2 (synergy) +2 (Self Sufficient) +4 (Wisdom 18) +7,467 (Aid Another) feeds 3,748-3,758 people per day. Your army will have no problems if supply lines are cut. Escape Artist will be a hard one, because it will be hard to do some of this in a situation in which you would need to make the check, besides slipping through a Wall of Force. What exactly you should animate depends on what you are escaping. Tiny blades would work well for many things, such as rope or when making the check to escape a grapple ("Please, hold onto me while hundreds of daggers are carving your flesh away from my body"). Hmm, maybe they should just attack in that case. Anyway, use your magical pseudo-science to explain how these gems/bits of mithral are helping you slip through the Wall of Force (sadly, they cannot follow unless the Aid each other in shifts to get through - untrained is allowed). Decipher Script: Animate dictionary pages (individually), pens, inkpots, paper, whatever will help you look through things. Animate glass shards for the lens idea in picking out details. Use your animated ink and papers to draw comparisons between fifteen versions of the language over the centuries and set them side by side. In this case, you are using all this matter as an inefficient computer, helping your brain process information literally in parallel by putting the options side-by-side. Your library may be a bit cluttered when this is done, but tell them all to clean themselves up.
LordofProcrastination 07-05-05, 08:07 AM	Building Your Nanobots: Miniscule minions of doom have to come from somewhere. Since the main varieties of nanobots are originally objects, crafting them can be as easy as making an endless succession of Craft (metalworking or leatherworking or glassblowing) checks or as fast as whipping out a Fabricate spell. If you're aiming for combat-readiness and durability, it is essential to apply a healthy high-caster-level dose of the Hardness spell from Eberron to the unworked material. If your material of choice is, like mine, Adamantine, a single application of the above spell can boost hardness to 30+, easily enough to sustain the average already-halved energy damage area spell, the main area-attack threat to one's swarming horde. Similarly, you can take advantage of the variable nature of the Animated Objects Monster Manual entry — give them wheels to push their movement speed over 80ft or make them from cloth for a flight speed. If you're feeling daring (and your DM is permissive), forge them with tiny built-in polearms or chains to give them reach capabilities (possibly allowing flanking, depending on your reading of the DMG pg 29). On to the nitty-gritty. Nanobots have to be very small, and not just for flavor reasons. The amount that can fit in your square (and thus can aid you) is directly limited by their size. If your help-target is Medium, 100 Fine creatures can fit without restriction in its square. For more details on creature-fitting mechanics, go for pg 29 of the DMG once more — I'll be sticking with Fine for the sake of optimization and simplicity. The 100 creature/square limit means that unless your minions have reach, your help-target will have to be Large or Huge to benefit from upper-end numbers of each. A Fine creature has a maximum space of ½ a foot, or 6 inches, so even if that isn't quite "nano" in the traditional sense, this does allow us to test the maximum inert hit points (as determined by object depth) of your helpers. Without at doubt, adamantine has the best hardness for its cost, so we'll use that. The cheapest way to obtain adamantine is as ammunition, at a cost of 60.10 gp for five pounds (10 bullets). Assuming that adamantine has the same density as steel (since its substitution doesn't affect metal armor/object weight), 5 lbs comes out to 17.63 cubic inches of material, or 3.41 gp per cubic inch. For our 6-inch-diameter limit, a sphere of adamantine would encompass 113.04 cubic inches of material, coming out to a total of 385.24 gp per 3-inch-radius nanobot. At this maximum, the object is 6 inches deep, and thus has 240 hit points and a base hardness of 20 (pre-spell-reinforcement). I know that 100 6-inch-wide spheres in a humanoid's space would look a little odd (and pricey), but it scales quite nicely. A 1-inch-wide (0.5 inch radius) version around the size of a marble still has 40 hp and 20 hardness for a paltry 1.78 gp. In short, given the cost of adamantine, anyone with a little ingenuity, or mundane or spell craftiness will face no difficulty constructing a customized super-hard nanoswarm. As a side note, these hit points are only partially useful since in animated form, the nanobots adopt the paltry 1-2 hp of an animated object. Though the rules leave it up to the DM to adjudicate whether the removal of these hit points constitutes a total smashing of the animated object or merely sufficient damage to disrupt the energizing magics within it. Given the disparity in inert object hit points to animated object hit points, I'm in favor of the second view, thus lending reusability even to "killed" nanobots.
DisposableHero_ 07-05-05, 08:14 AM	Exemplar, while a cool choice, probably makes a terrible comparison min/max wise to taking a single level of marshall for one of the motivate auras (or 3 levels for two auras) and pushing your charisma to the point where it makes the check for them. An 18 starting stat, and +2 racial bonus gives a simple +5 to their checks, meaning an 75% success rate in activating each one at first level. Doing so also leaves you with 19 levels to make use of the massive bonuses. Great thread!
LordofProcrastination 07-05-05, 08:18 AM	DisposableHero_ brings up an excellent point: Why not the beloved Marshal? The Answer: Marshal auras do not function unless the allies have an intelligence of 3 or higher. The majority of truly powerful nanite options do not allow for your hordes to display such strength of mind. But oh, if there were a way to functionally improve construct or undead Int without extreme xp loss... the nano-programmers would be all over it like Zeugalaks on a power generator. Also, as my discussion in "Alternate Methods of Nano-Programming" hints, Marshals are limited to a single aura active at a time. While it may not be a big point if you're dedicated to a single skill set, versatility and the ability to multitask are terribly valuable.
DisposableHero_ 07-05-05, 08:27 AM	ignore, I'm not thinking straight right now
Vecna 07-05-05, 09:46 AM	Q: Could the Dual Nano-Power-Programmer beat the H.I.V.E. at poker? A: Depends on who casts cheat first. Why don't make a lot of animated nanoarmors with a H.I.V.E. wearing them?
Warlord Griffin 07-05-05, 09:48 AM	Holy :censored: you are a rule breaking son of a tarrasque :bow: I hate your build and bow to its brilliance at the same time, Peace Out
Urnsk 07-05-05, 10:44 AM	For absolute versatility, any build requires a corhort with Warchanter 10: get those little guys +20 to their BAB, and +2 to damage, so that's wonderful. With Exemplar + Warshaper, the little guys are gonna be able to help with any skill check, or any attack... so what if they only do 2 damage total... They're all whacking at +20 BAB. Other than that, there's a wonderful way to not have to make any of those items, nor spend any money on them... a Twin, repeated Prying Eyes spell. While they don't have many hit points, for casting for 1 round at CL 20, you would have between 84 and 100 of them. They are fine constructs, and will follow your instructions when you cast the spell; it doesn't say anything about only doing so for spying. They also last for 1 hour, rather than 1 round, and are a full spell slot lower. My suggestion: Wizard + PrC 11 (undecided which ones just yet)/Exemplar 11. 2 Skill Focus', Leadership, Practiced Spellcaster, and Spell Thematics, to change their appearance; this also increases the CL by one, for 16. This gives each eye its maximum Spot Modifier, so make your orders, "Use Aid Other on me every turn for whatever I'm doing, and if you spot something dangerous attack it." Alternatively, you could be an Artificer 12/Exemplar 8, and craft staves of Prying Eyes + something else, and build yourself a horde of Golems; between the Golem Manuals and your normal +2 to building things, and the fact that your prying eyes swarms will help you with... everything you need, why not have another +16 to everything by making 8 golems? They make decent body-guards, and careful planning with your want of Fireball/Lightning Bolts/Etc... can cure them up quite nicely in melee. The staff also has the downside of a lower CL (much lower), no Spell Thematics, and costing more... it has the upside of more uses per day, if you need them. Gotta run now, but I'll add more thoughts later.
nihility 07-05-05, 11:15 AM	:tiphat: :dancin: :w00t:
LordofProcrastination 07-05-05, 01:47 PM	Great thoughts, Urnsk, and thanks for the comments, you lot. Warchanter with its "best of the bunch" Base Attack Bonus ability is definitely a top choice for a Nano-optimized team. It might be a little hairy to work in the full (necessary) 10 levels into a Power or Programming build, but there's no denying the power of the combo. As for Prying Eyes, I love the image. My ony qualm would be that the created eyes aren't technically animated objects, but rather constructs with somewhat specific capabilities. I know there's nothing disallowing their use for things other than looking/reporting, but it may be on shaky rules territory for them to branch out. That said, they're cheap and numerous, so I'll whip together an analysis of the option and put it in the "Alternate Methods of Nano-Power" section. Keep the suggestions coming, please :)
Turin 07-05-05, 01:48 PM	Not to be a rain on the parade, but how would this little bit from the SRD on Aid Another affect this build?In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone.Does this apply to the "nanites" with skills they don't ordinary have (trained only skills, for example)?
primetimekiller 07-05-05, 01:50 PM	nive build nice idea very sick result... but one thing is bothering me... a single fireball(or similar mass destruciton) could spoil it all by destroying you nanaobots and leaving you withount protection with a lot of junk all around you couldn't it? how much hp can such a tiny or even fine animated object have? not enough for a good placed spell
LordofProcrastination 07-05-05, 02:47 PM	Turin: I knew this question would arise, so here's a sneak peak at the supplemental analysis that addresses these concerns. Nanotechnology and "Trained" Skills First, let me be crystal clear in my source material -- I am relying on the precise wording of the Player's Handbook (and all of its eratta) on pages 64-66, rather than on any SRD. The SRD is a great idea, but the plethora of not-quite-identical versions and lack of detail makes it unsuitable for in-depth analysis of complex combinations. The PHB (and most SRD) descriptions in the "Trained vs Untrained" section accurately describe how without ranks in a "Trained-Only" skill, completing a task in a "Trained Only" skill is fruitless. The wording and language of the restriction makes it clear that the issue is knowing what to do to successfully accomplish a typical use of the skill. Straightforward, right? When we move down to the "Aid Another" section (page 65/66), something interesting emerges. The topic rather ostentatiously ignores "Trained/Untrained" distinctions and talks about how people can help out each other by making related skill checks. When it describes the limitations on "Aid Another", it very specifically only restricts the use of the Aid Another options in the cases where a specific class feature or feat is necessary to obtain access to a specific facet of the skill, as clarified in a special restriction section in the skill-description. The examples given are Search, Survival, and Disable Device, all of which bear a unique and distinction "restriction" section in their skill description completely separate from the Trained/Untrained distinction. The only other skill with such a restriction is Use Magic Device, which again specifically restricts the use of "Aid Another" in conjunction with this skill. The PHB makes a big point of singling out the very specific places where Aiding Another is limited. The fact that this singling out and set of specific restrictions occurs completely separate to the "Trained-Only" descriptor heavily implies the rule-uniqueness of the Aid Another action compared to typical personal skill use. In short, it seems clear that the PHB establishes has two standards for skill-attempt capability: to do a skill on your own, you have to pay attention to the Trained/Untrained dichotomy. When not making the check for yourself, but rather are doing an "Aid Another" action, what matters is the specific restrictions outlined for the skill. If you're in any way skeptical ask yourself, "If Trained-Only status is supposed to govern the Aid Another action, why would they bother with specific restrictions?" Of course, if anyone isn't convinced by this reasoning, that's fine. DM adjudication will always win in the end, but at least it should be very clear that Nanotechnology still can produce massive AC/Attack benefits and help out on most skills. Primetimekiller: Indeed, area spells are the great bane of nanotechnology in combat. One of the reasons I'm asking the CO board for advice is to shore up the few weaknesses of the concept. For an immediate answer, look to hardness. Your average pre-hardened adamantine nanobot has a hardness of 30-40 that means they'll survive most low-to-mid level attacks, but still fall to high-level or optimized major area assaults. If you're concerned about such area spells, take steps to limit spellcasting (go go synergized Jarring Song or Song of Spelldeath), or simply don't heavily rely on Nanotech as your primary source of protection/attack. There are certainly more options out there, so let's get cracking on making nanotech more battle-durable (as if insta-epic skill options weren't enough :P )
LordArkan 07-05-05, 03:03 PM	But oh, if there were a way to functionally improve construct or undead Int without extreme xp loss... Awaken Undead is cheap, and affects ALL undead in a radius.
SigmaJargon 07-05-05, 03:32 PM	Awesome! Beautifully done, oh Lord of Procrastination, beautifully done. :D However, you should keep in mind the need to be always battle ready. I can guarentee that you will won't have six and a half minutes to set up before every battle. To that end, I would suggest replacing Animate Object - which animates one object per caster level - with Gate, which summons 1 HD of creatures per caster level. Why? Because there are critters with as little as 1/4 HD in the SRD (and I seem to remember a 1/8 HD creature in the Draconomicon). Summoning 80 bats rather than powering 20 nanobots is a much better investment of time when a battle is raging. More creatures, more AC, more attack, more skill. For the World Record, it doesn't matter, but for use in game, I would argue that Gate is the better option. Of course, Gate will only ever control the 20 HD (unless you use some cheese to boost it, such as UMD'ing a staff of gate) so Animate Object could be used in subsequent rounds to supplement the initial summoning, if 80 bats aren't enough for your tastes.
LordofProcrastination 07-05-05, 03:35 PM	Great catch, LordArkan! I had forgotten that Awaken Undead was updated to 3.5 in Libris Mortis. The 200 xp cost isn't bad at all if it works on every minion around you and one pays close attention to horde attrition. The catch is that the awakened undead's Intelligence will still rely on that of the original form. Thus, we now need some high-intelligence, low-HD monsters that can be easily captured/killed/animated on a large scale. Any suggestions, experienced necromancers of the world?
LordofProcrastination 07-05-05, 04:24 PM	Ah, the joys of cross-posting. Good analysis, SigmaJargon. You'll find that Gate is already listed up in "Alternate Sources of Nano-Power," but you're spot-on in your thinking about its advantages. Gate's catches are 1) selecting suitable minions and 2) communication to tell those critturs to do what you want. In terms of minion accessibility, Gate limits your summoning options to "extraplanar" creatures, meaning typical bats are an iffy-to-disallowed choice. This restriction probably isn't prohibitive-- it'll just require a monster-entry search to find adequate low-HD extraplanr minions. Likewise, if one does end up summoning animals, there's always the matter of actually directing them how to help. A speak with animals (or epic Handle Animals) should clear this up, it's simply one more little detail to keep track of.
AlienFromBeyond 07-05-05, 04:38 PM	For creatures to animate and then awaken, there's the Petal from MM3. Tiny Fey with 1 HD and 15 Int. Also, Jermlaines are Tiny Fey with 1/2 HD and 8 Int. Shadow Asp from Fiend Folio is a Tiny Magical Beast with 1 HD and 4 Int. Pseudodragon from MM is a 2 HD Tiny Dragon with 10 Int. Grig is a Tiny Fey from the MM with 1/2 HD and 10 Int. Haven't found a Fine size one though :(. Not even a Diminutive one...
Turin 07-05-05, 05:02 PM	In short, it seems clear that the PHB establishes has two standards for skill-attempt capability: to do a skill on your own, you have to pay attention to the Trained/Untrained dichotomy. When not making the check for yourself, but rather are doing an "Aid Another" action, what matters is the specific restrictions outlined for the skill. If you're in any way skeptical ask yourself, "If Trained-Only status is supposed to govern the Aid Another action, why would they bother with specific restrictions?"Good enough argument for me! :D Another (perhaps nitpicky) question: Wiz 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 2/ Incantrix 4/Exemplar 9 was one of your "Empower and Program" builds. Where's this guy getting Animate Objects from? Not UMD + staff, is he? Won't that get expensive after a while? Or is he using an alternate creation method?
catharz 07-05-05, 05:28 PM	:clap:
Elgonn 07-05-05, 06:06 PM	I love it. Except for the eventual Fireball that kills your entire swarm.
UltimateReality 07-05-05, 06:19 PM	This is disgusting, sickening, and absolutely beautiful...I'd love you but my DM would kill me.
Endarire 07-05-05, 06:57 PM	This somehow reminds me of The Matrix. -EE
Jeremymc 07-05-05, 07:26 PM	Ummm... There's one serious, enormous problem with this build. It's the "Animate Objects" spell. It allows for animated objects to do NOTHING but immediately attack whoever the caster designates. Animated objects (as per the spell) CANNOT aid in attacks or actions. All they can do is individually attack an enemy. So even if you "lend talent" to them, they cannot use it. And even though that busts the build, let's look at the exemplar ability: it states that the lend talent must be equal to half the penalty the Exemplar takes on his own skill checks. And that penalty can not exceed the Exemplar's class level. So the most you can ever grant a single "nanite" is 5 (half of 10). And if a nanite has 5 in a skill, I don't think he can use the "aid another" action. Well, he could, but he would have to roll a 5 on the "aid another" action roll, as as we just explored, an animated object cannot use that action at all. Sorry, but this build is busted. Well, unless you make each one of those fine, animated objects a fine-sized GOLEM instead. But now we're venturing into wierder territory.
Fãlenganor 07-05-05, 07:31 PM	The exemplar's ability improves at 8th or 9th level, so that part still works. BTW, kudos to you, LordofProcrastination, nice idea, and getting a way to make your minions whitstand the area spells seems like the only missing piece.
Jeremymc 07-05-05, 07:40 PM	Oh yah, that's true, I hadn't noticed that. But that's not my point. My point is that the Animated Objects cannot even use the "aid another" action. They can't combine their attacks. All they can do is attack whoever the caster designates.
LordofProcrastination 07-05-05, 07:41 PM	Jeremymc: though your concern for rules-management is admirable, Animate Objects can indeed be used effectively in the way I have written. And here's how: The animate objects spell in the PHB does indeed say that the objects you animate "immediately attack whomever or whatever you initially designate." Thus, one's animated objects would initially be set to attacking alone. However, it then goes on to say that these animated objects use the game statistics from the Monsters Manual. Looking at the Monster Manual statistics for animated objects, we find that "they follow orders without question and to the best of their abilities." This directly means that animated objects can be ordered about according to the wishes of their master and can act according to what they can do. Since the Exemplar enhancements mean that making skill/attack DCs is now within the realm of their abilities, they can follow orders to utilize those abilities. As for a timing issue, if you want to read the "immediately attack" part literally to say that each new set of animate objects is attacking by default, it is still no problem. I've built in a one-round delay after all of the castings such that the nano-programmer can order the nanites to take action other than their "initial" and immediate programming, so no nanites are lost for the purposes of the giant checks. Debunking debunked! Ultimately, whether you agree with my detailed analysis of the governing rules or not, there are many many many ways to obtain a nanite horde, so discluding animated objects really doesn't delegitimize the build concept. Regarding Lend Talent: Please go back and read the full ability. At 8th level, allies gain full 1:1 benefits from the Exemplar's penalty.
Jeremymc 07-05-05, 07:51 PM	Hmmm, well I don't agree with that interpretation at all, as it's EXTREMELY DUBIOUS. But since it's so vague, it becomes a DM's call whether or not you can order them to do anything but fight. And considering that the MM entry says things like "owe their existence to spells like animate object", I think that using the text of the spell is par for the course. And you're right about the exemplar giving a 1:1 ratio, but what about the fact that nothing you've done has given the animated object ANY intelligence score at all. They don't just have ONE intelligence, they have NON-intelligence. Technically, it makes them incapable of using any skills at all, doesn't it?
AlienFromBeyond 07-05-05, 07:56 PM	No it doesn't. At least, as far as I can tell.
Urnsk 07-05-05, 08:28 PM	JeremyMC- No, his interpretation is quite spot on. If they obey your orders, then great. And you can say, "No one" as the person they attack in the round you cast them; you probably aren't making skill checks right away anyway. You don't need an INT to make skill checks. Skeletons can climb. Zombies can jump.You might need an INT for ranks, but if it can be used untrained, it doesn't make a spot of difference whether you have ranks or not. However, I did find a problem with Wizard builds, unless it got errata'ed. Namely, Bards, Clerics, and the Trickery domain are the only things that get Animate Objects... Wizards do not. And while a Wizard could take the Arcane Domain feat, he could still only cast Animate Objects once per day (though somehow twinning and repeating it would be potent enough)
Todd 07-05-05, 09:30 PM	A wizard or sorcerer might blow Extra Spell to learn it....
Urnsk 07-05-05, 09:39 PM	No, I really don't think he could. The feat doesn't give any indication that it lets him take a spell not on his spell list; it just says he can take an additional spell of any level up to one less than his maximum. Considering there are already rules for what spells he can cast/earn, the lack of repetition ("but only from the sorcerer/wizard spell list"), is not an indication of inclusion of other classes. It would require an active statement of allowance for that to work. I suppose that a wizard could "research" the spell...
RadicalTaoist 07-05-05, 09:43 PM	Superlolz. However, I prefer TempestStormwind's approach to the small scale and ridiculous proportions philosophy: I noticed your reply on the Mental Power thread about mean spell combos, and I got thinking about that whole idea -- putting existing spells together in the name of invincibility. I figured you might get a kick out of the results. It's a revision of an idea I had about two weeks ago on the CO boards, an experiment in wizardly spell combination, item creation, and automation. In other words, artificers would go nuts over this (and except for the last item, it can all be built by a single one of them). A: Shaper-made command-word item of Minor Creation (flask-sized balsa wood box): 1800 GP. (Wizard works too, but it's far pricier, at 50,400 GP.) B: Wizard-made command-word item of Major Creation (flask of alchemist's fire): 81000 GP. C: Wizard-made command-word item of Shrink Item (on the flask): 27000 GP. D: Wizard-made command-word item of Mage Hand (move the small flask into the box): 900 GP. (Works with Far Hand as well). E: Wizard-made command-word item of Mage Hand (move the filled box into cold storage): 900 GP. (You may need Unseen Servant for this, depending on the scale of your cold storage) F: Wizard-made continuous item of Programmed Image (Speak the command words in the order 1A, 4000(BCD), 1E, over and over): 132000 GP. G: Cold Storage: Extradimensional space of choice (up to and including pocket demiplane) + Shaper-made command-word Faucet of Quintessence: at least 50400 GP. Entire assembly: 294,000 GP, plus whatever the cost is to hide it where it won't be disturbed (possibly also in your pocket demiplane). One Infinite Factory of Firey Doom, capable of producing little one-pound boxes that explode for 4000d6 fire damage in an area (and forces 4000 DC 15 reflex saves to prevent it all from happening the next round) without any attention on your part except ammo retrieval: Priceless. With minor alterations to some components' caster levels (and possibly replacing the second Mage Hand item with a Telekinesis one), you can make an increasingly deadly munitions factory. Adjust the size of the balsa wood box and the number of command word recitations accordingly to produce weapons of variable caliber, ranging from pocket lighters to tactical nukes. Note that the tactical nukes may require a hulking hurler or similar seige weapon to deliver properly. For the gatling-gun fancier, be advised that large piles of smaller versions (up to and including the high-caliber 25lb, 100,000d6 model) make excellent ammunition for Telekinesis. Add more Programmed Images to speed the process up through division of labor. As is, it takes 20 hours, 12 seconds to make one of the standard, flask-sized units (in other words, one pound of the final substance, which is 4000d6 of fire). Divide this time by the number of images you have speaking. (My original idea involved Permanencied Ghost Sound... I'm still miffed that we can't set up the devices to work on sounds that spell can make...) The ultimate irony behind this is that it's within the price range of a 20th level basketweaving commoner lawn-bowler and his 16th level wife (who, given the strange obsession with such gimmicks, is likely a magewright), and it turns them into damage-dealers of Hulking-Hurler-esque proportions*. Isn't it nice when things just... work? (http://194.29.64.17/thecog/movie.html) ^_^ I really hope that there's a CO contest that something like this could be submitted to... perhaps a contest themed on The Incredible Machine? *If the items can be keyed to work off of Ghost Sound instead, a 19th level commoner could afford this and still have 5045 GP to spare.
Tempest Stormwind 07-05-05, 10:48 PM	Heh, RadicalTaoist, I actually modified that one a bit since I sent you that PM (I believe your reply was "Explolsion! CO Boards. Now!"). http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=410316&page=2&pp=30 has it (second page, if the link doesn't work). This isn't quite the final revision, though, since it seems that Ghost Sound CAN work as the trigger! (Thus, our commoner/lawn bowler can afford it himself without dipping into his magewright wife's purse). By the way, Jeremymc: Similar wording to Animate Objects is also used on Summon Monster I, which in turn implies that all any summoned monster can do is attack. This hasn't stopped anyone from using Summon Monster to have the monster do something other than attack, such as using a noncombat spell-like ability. And if you want to get technical, sometimes a skill check or an ability check is an attack -- for instance, a monster with a high strength but poor attack rolls might realize that the best way to attack its opponents is to burst the ropes holding the chandeliers in place. If they are capable of doing this, then why aren't they capable of realizing that their best means of attack is to support their summoner? AWESOME thread, by the way. (Reminds me of a 3.0 druid I'd played, or one of the 2e necromancers I recall. Both relied on squirrels and songbirds for sickening results.)
RadicalTaoist 07-06-05, 12:14 AM	(I believe your reply was "Explolsion! CO Boards. Now!"). Was. And still is. :D
Squirrelloid 07-06-05, 12:49 AM	Hmmm, well I don't agree with that interpretation at all, as it's EXTREMELY DUBIOUS. But since it's so vague, it becomes a DM's call whether or not you can order them to do anything but fight. And considering that the MM entry says things like "owe their existence to spells like animate object", I think that using the text of the spell is par for the course. And you're right about the exemplar giving a 1:1 ratio, but what about the fact that nothing you've done has given the animated object ANY intelligence score at all. They don't just have ONE intelligence, they have NON-intelligence. Technically, it makes them incapable of using any skills at all, doesn't it? Your comment is neither helpful nor warranted. The MM entry is specifically designed to complement the spell, and as the MM has a later publication date (not by much, but it does), the monster entry technically overrules the spell description. As far as i can tell, intelligence has nothing to do with ability to use skills, assuming you can get skills somehow. LordofProcrastination: Awesome idea. I have thoughts of mecha swarming with nanobots to help the pilot. Otherwise known as how to turn DnD into cyberpunk?
AlienFromBeyond 07-06-05, 12:51 AM	Found this when looking at another thread: The Kenku from MM3. It has an ability called Great Ally. When they are giving or receiving the benefit, they gain a +3 bonus instead of a +2 bonus. Just so you can up those World Record numbers some ;). Also, I wanted to check to see if a pseudo-science thing works in 3.5 now, since the giant alchemist's fire bomb was posted. It involved making a big Obdurium cube large enough to fit a Teleportation Circle in. Then, you find a way to take out all the gas, thus creating a vacuum. That's why you use Obduruium (or however it's spelled), so it can withstand the pressure from outside. Anyways, you then stick a Teleportation Circle at the bottom of the cube, with it teleporting to the top of the cube (but still inside of it). Then, drop a brick (or animated brick if it needs to be a creature). It'll keep on accelerating due to gravity, but it won't stop as there is no air to create a terminal velocity. Let it go for a sufficient amount of time, then Dispel Magic the circle, with a contingency to teleport the hell out of there right after you finish casting. Brick hits cube at some godawful speed, and releases enormous amounts of energy. Hooray for Kinetic Energy! This was first thought up at ENWorld, and it was believed that you could get this to release so much energy (as heat) that it would be enough to cause oxygen to undergo Fusion (or Fission, can't remember which).
Rashomon 07-06-05, 01:42 AM	Terminal velocity is a function of acceleration due to gravity. Eventually, an object will stop accelerating as it falls, if only because it has reached the maximum speed it can be falling towards the earth. Air resistance does not affect TV, so you can skip the vacuum part. And by the game rules, your brick would do 20d6 falling damage.
AlienFromBeyond 07-06-05, 01:52 AM	I could have sworn terminal velocity was related to air resistance, as you get to a certain point where air resistance counteracts all acceleration due to gravity. And what do you mean "if only because it has reached the maximum speed it can be falling towards the earth."? If you fall down, then get transported up with all factors being the same (velocity etc.) and get pulled down more, won't gravity keep accelerating you? Ugh, maybe I should go check on Wikipedia or something about that. My Physics II class was crap, which sucks big time :(.
Pyrthas 07-06-05, 01:53 AM	My understanding was that you hit terminal velocity when the force due to gravity is equal to the drag. No drag, no terminal velocity. A friend of mine suggested something similar to me back during 2e involving oil of slipperiness, dimension door (the psionic power), the thing that let you keep psionic powers up indefinitely (gird or something like that), and a whole lot of people providing an endless supply of pps. Plus something to negate the gravitational effects of the thing that's falling. Let it fall long enough and it starts getting really, really massive. Dispel whatever was keeping its gravitational effects at bay and let it, traveling near the speed of light and having an absolutely absurd mass, do the rest. I've probably gotten some of the specifics wrong. It's been a whle since 2e, anyway. Anyway, this is way off topic. Sorry, Lord. :(
AlienFromBeyond 07-06-05, 01:59 AM	Just looked at Wikipedia to make sure I'm not crazy. I was right! "The terminal velocity of an object falling towards the ground is the speed at which the gravitational force pulling it downwards is equal and opposite to the atmospheric drag (also called air resistance) pushing it upwards." Though as Pyrthas said, eventually it'll get to such high speeds that it'll start to warp space-time. And the max damage a falling obeject can do is 20d6 is because there's usually air to institute a terminal velocity. Thus, 20d6 is the max damage a falling object can do at terminal velocity.
rakhir 07-06-05, 02:02 AM	Terminal velocity is a function of acceleration due to gravity. Eventually, an object will stop accelerating as it falls, if only because it has reached the maximum speed it can be falling towards the earth. Air resistance does not affect TV, so you can skip the vacuum part. And by the game rules, your brick would do 20d6 falling damage. Pardon me for the thread derail, but I am a physics teacher and can't let this one slip by. Air resistance is roughly proportional to speed, so as an object accelerates under the influence of gravity the air resistance that it is subjected to increases. Eventually the falling object will attain a large enough speed so that the force of air resistance will exactly cancel the force of gravity and the object will stop accelerating. This speed is the terminal velocity of the object. Atmosphere is DEFINATELY required. Note that terminal velocity depends on both the amount of atmosphere present and on the shape of the object. A parachute reduces your terminal velocity to a non-fatal level if you deploy it properly in the atmosphere around our earth, but it would be mostly useless if you happened to be falling toward the surface of Mars. Sorry about the derail. Edit: Damn, it looks like someone beat me to it.
LordofProcrastination 07-06-05, 04:25 AM	Interesting conversation on sci-fi intrusion into D&D, and apologies accepted all around for the "derail." My take on the matter has mostly been to work within the world-mechanics of the game, with occasional bits of inspiration or madness from "real science." But back to business... About the Straight-Arcane Power-Programmer -- Urnsk was certainly clairvoyant to pick up on the trick necessary to make this build feasible: Arcane Disciple (x2) with heapings of metamagic on the side. The limited number of non-staff castings is a true downer, but access to Incantrix spell-modification tied to Spellcraft checks is the real reason behind the madness. For newcomers and well-read veterans alike, the World Records build has been updated to include new item enhancements (Metamagic Rods of Quicken) and a new character race (Kenku). And the new numbers are... (drumroll please...) +5,742 to Skill Checks or +4,593 to AC/Attacks. We're still looking for suitable Gate-able minions, new ways of boosting Caster Level, and new uses/combos for nano-enhanced checks. Keep up the great work everyone, and special props to AlienFromBeyond for the Kenku connection!
8w_Gremlin 07-06-05, 07:07 AM	Excellent Post! I was thinking about alternative creation methods, only briefly mind you so this isn't thought out 100%. but what about the warlocks ability: THE DEAD WALK? (Complete Arcane) It states that it works as the animate dead spell, but if you don't use the material componant (an onyx worth 25gp per HD of the corpse) the corpse crumbles to dust in 1min/caster level any use?
Shandrakor 07-06-05, 10:03 AM	Jolly good job. Well done!
Xeraph 07-06-05, 10:31 AM	... and suddenly another part of the game crumbled to dust... :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Jeremymc 07-06-05, 12:21 PM	Your comment is neither helpful nor warranted. The MM entry is specifically designed to complement the spell, and as the MM has a later publication date (not by much, but it does), the monster entry technically overrules the spell description. As far as i can tell, intelligence has nothing to do with ability to use skills, assuming you can get skills somehow. Oh, I'm so SORRY that I DARED to even pose a CHALLENGE to the great and noble gods of Nanobot DND. Forgive this humble peasant's ignorance, but when the lords of the land came down from on high with commandments written in stone, I should have cowered under the altar of my optimization worship. I should have made a hecatomb, and sacrificed the fatted oxen to the great lord of procrastination without ever asking any questions. If this build can't stand the heat of inquiry, then too friggin' bad. If you good people can't stand a couple of questions, then TOO BAD. Questions will be asked, whether you like it or not. The only question you need to concern yourself with is whether or not you have a good answer, which so far, is not the case. Comments and questions are ALWAYS WARRANTED when they're genuine questions. And yes, there are a LOT of people (me included) who believe that an animated object can do NOTHING but attack. How could an animated table climb a rope? How could it listen for intruders? A summoned monster is different, because it has an animated intelligence. It can be asked to do things other than attack, but only by someone with the skill to handle animals, or by a charm/dominate spell. A summoned monster with human-like intelligence can be asked to do other things by a reasoned request from the caster, or a bribe, etc... But the basic condition of both the "animate objects" and the "summon monster" spells are ATTACKING and ONLY ATTACKING. Anything else is a DM's call entirely. And so far, there's no good reason, other than some extremely dubious semantics, to make me believe that this build is legal. And creatures with NON intelligence cannot use any skills. In actuality, I don't think a skeleton can climb, nor jump, nor open a door. Neither can a Golem use the "spot" skill. They are mindless automatons who have no skills of any sort, not even racial. If you command a Golem or a skeleton to walk off a cliff, they will do it. If you command them to hack off their own heads, they will do it. The only things that have skills are "free-willed" undead/robots, or undead with special properties. But the regular, run-of-the-mill undead and automatons have no skills at all in their skill entries. And giving a skeleton or a golem skills doesn't necessarily mean that they can use them. If you put a magic ring of swim skill on a skeleton's hand, it doesn't mean that he will know how to swim. With a non-intelligence, the skeleton can't even make use of skill ranks of any sort. If you find a way to make you animated objects have any sort of intelligence score at all, then this build would suddenly become legal. Even an intelligence of 1 would allow legality. Just build into the staff an intelligence-boosting spell, or psi-power. All you need is one point on all of your objects. That's not hard to do.
Fãlenganor 07-06-05, 12:30 PM	C'mon dude! You're just jealous :P . [/jk]
Tempest Stormwind 07-06-05, 12:33 PM	If you find a way to make you animated objects have any sort of intelligence score at all, then this build would suddenly become legal. Even an intelligence of 1 would allow legality. Just build into the staff an intelligence-boosting spell, or psi-power. All you need is one point on all of your objects. That's not hard to do. You know, I'm not sure on this. It's odd, really. A nonability Intelligence is not the same as a 0 Intelligence. For instance, if you cast Bear's Endurance on a zombie, what happens? It doesn't get an enhancement bonus to Constitution because it lacks a constitution, and if it had a constitution score (either as a base or from the spell), then it suddenly wouldn't be undead, it'd be alive. I'm tempted to think the same thing applies to Intelligence. Can a simple second-level spell grant intelligence (and thus, at least semisentience) to things that can't think in the first place? I'd be inclined to say no.
SigmaJargon 07-06-05, 12:43 PM	Chill, Jeremymc. No need to get angry. However, I must say that I disagree with your stance on intelligence and skill use. I have yet to see a rule disallowing the use of skills by mindless beings. In fact, looking through the SRD, I see some mindless creatures that have skills listed. Also, it should be noted that Giant Ants, which are mindless, have a racial bonus to survival and climb checks. If it can't use skills, then why give it racial skill bonuses?
CubeKnight 07-06-05, 12:44 PM	I'd just like to note that perhaps an animated table can't climb a rope, but why couldn't it help you climb it? I mean, you only need the table to get under your feet so you have to climb a bit less ;) Also, AFAIK, havin no intelligence means you don't get skill ranks/feats/etc, but I don't remember reading anywhere that no intelligence means you cannot *use* the skills. I'll check the SRD and post what I find.
Vecna 07-06-05, 12:48 PM	And yes, there are a LOT of people (me included) who believe that an animated object can do NOTHING but attack. How could an animated table climb a rope? How could it listen for intruders? Well, probably a LOT of people (you included) have never seen "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" in Walt Disney's Fantasia...
zivpeled 07-06-05, 01:26 PM	techniclly an animated objet poses the basic senses and then some as par the construct trait the same way a gollem (a really big nenite ;) ) can be orderd to seat and listen to the alarm and when it sound rush to smash target X so if a construct can hear and see and dosent need to have an actual form of an aye or ear then yes a construct and that way an animated object can perform some skills and regard to jumpping climbing and many other skills the deffinition of an animated objet is that they try to the best of ther abbility to perform the task in that regard a table might bend his leg to try to catch the rope... in the more spacific case of the nenites if you give them the form of a realy small war forged then they have all the phisical atributes to perform tasks (hends feet...)
carnivore 07-06-05, 01:30 PM	wow...i was away for a while.......but glad i could inspire something useful.. nice job LordofProcrastination :tiphat: :tiphat: :tiphat: something else you may want to look up......the spell" Minor Servitor" from savage species....it will allow you to make Permanent Animated objects and is a Wizard spell...... it should work very nicely with this concept. :D
zivpeled 07-06-05, 01:43 PM	something else you may want to look up......the spell" Minor Servitor" from savage species....it will allow you to make Permanent Animated objects and is a Wizard spell...... it should work very nicely with this concept. there is one big problam with this spell it has a casting time of ONE FULL DAY! that is a bit problematic if you try to make an army it will take years of castings to finnish the army.
AlienFromBeyond 07-06-05, 01:52 PM	Time to get that Flowing Time trait plane ready...
LordofProcrastination 07-06-05, 03:18 PM	A lively debate, more suggestions, and a tip of the hat from carnivore. What more could a thread want? For the current crop of suggestions, I'm going to refrain from adding Minor Servitor to the list of Nano-Empowerment options due to the sticky issue of Savage Species' acceptability in 3.5. The Dead Walk definitely looks like a solid option for those of an arcane bend, available after only 6 levels of warlock, limited only by body availability, and flexible in its duration. Nice catch, 8w_Gremlin. On a more fundamental level, resolution of the capabilities of animated objects is quite important. I'd like to thank jerermymc for continuing open criticism of the World Records build, since true legitimacy is best earned through trial and debate. What we need now, though, are reasons to believe one way or the other on the subject, not assertions. As I see it, there are two primary issues: 1) What the animate objects spell and Animated Objects monster entry allow animated objects to do. 2) In general, whether non-Intelligent creatures can use skills at all. 1) The animate objects spell and the Animated Object monster entry As I discussed earlier, here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6618808&postcount=28), it appears that the animate objects spell and the Monster Manual entry are inextricably intertwined. It is necessary to use the rules-descriptions from both to say what can happen. ---A. The animate objects spell specifically tells casters to use the Monster Manual entry to find out the game statistics (i.e. what they can do) of animated objects. ---B. The MM entry says that they "follow orders without question and to the best of their abilities." Thus, animated objects are pliable to their master's instructions and can take actions within the realm of their capabilities. The general argument for "non-Int" creatures aside, the Exemplar Lend Talent aura means that successfully passing DC 10 or higher skill checks is clearly within their range of abilities. ---C. The PHB spell animate objects does say that the objects "immediately attack whomever or whatever you initially designate," but makes no ruling about what must happen after this initial phase. ---D. The PHB spell furthermore makes no limitations on the capabilities of animated objects more than the Monsters Manual entry. Thus, if it is allowed by the Monster Manual entry, it is allowed by animated objects empowered by the spell. These four arguments are not "extremely dubious" semantics-- they are direct appeals to the rules governing animated objects. If there is to be any legitimate contention of the capabilities of animated objects in relation to the spell, the contender must address the logic and rules backing behind these four theses. 2) "Non-Intelligent" creatures and skill checks I would like to point out a major distinction between "free will" and "intelligence." D&D makes a big point of separating out assorted issues of mental control, action-compliance, and personal capabilities according to specific rules governance. Just because something will do whatever one tells them to doesn't mean they don't have capabilities. Here are my arguments why non-intelligent creatures still may make skill checks. ---A. According to the MM, creatures with "--" intelligence do not gain any skill ranks. Skill ranks are separate entities from from skill-bonuses. ---B. Heck, everybody go check out page 312 of the Monsters Manual, the "nonabilities" section. In there, you'll find how it specifically describes the implications of being "mindless." Among these implications, you'll find that it allows mindless creatures to have skill bonuses, and thus may make skill checks. ---C. While the flavor of having tens or hundreds of animated objects/skeletons/unseen servants help out on skill checks may be a little odd, there are no rules restricting non-Intelligent creatures from using aid another or any other skill/attack permutation for that matter. Whew, I hope that this healthy dose of the rules helps clear up the storm clouds of uncertainty. In the forecast: new, potent, and playable builds.
DreamWeaver 07-06-05, 05:50 PM	U know, I just thought of something, and maybe you already discussed it (haven't seen it yet), but your not using them on skills that require training, right? Because just having a bonus on a skill check does not constitute having the 1 rank required to be able to use that skill at all. Of course, there are tons of untrained skills that could be boosted, I suppose. Which to me cancels the idea that a skeleton can't climb or jump. They can be used untrained so it doesn't matter whether it has any ranks or bonuses. As long as it is directed to climb, it will attempt to climb. If it is directed to jump, it will attempt to jump. It might be horrible at it, but with a boost from an Exemplar(sp?), it might make it. We had a skeleton crawl up a rough wall with hand holds to a ledge 15 ft up in our World's Largest Dungeon (WLD) game. Then I hooked my claws into it as it walked off the ledge and let my feather fall ring handle the downward spiral. Anyway, just a thought.
LordofProcrastination 07-06-05, 06:06 PM	Dreamweaver: the concern about "Trained" vs "Untrained" skill checks in the specific instance of the Aid Another action was indeed discussed earlier in the thread, Right Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6616234&postcount=14). It's pretty lengthy, so the temptation to skim is great, but I believe that the arguments laid out within are well-grounded in the rules and quite convincing. For the sake of reducing clutter, I'm not going to repost those arguments here. Of course, if you have a problem with the rules-arguments in that post, by all means, go right ahead and post them.
LordofProcrastination 07-07-05, 04:18 AM	Alright, alright an update at last: World-Record Skill Specialist For those of you interested in the skill bonus side of nanotechnology, here's a tweak to the role-model max-it-out build: Items: Subtract out the three Metamagic Rods of Quicken spell and the Luckstone. Add 19 versions of Contingent Repeat Servant Horde at CL 15 each. The pricing works out, the luckstone's bonus wasn't essential to the Divine Spell Power routine, and this brings our total contingent spells to the maximum of 20. Preparation: On the round before the Big Check, your maniacal laughter also activates the contingent repeat servant hordes, creating (2d6+15)*2*19 unseen servants over the next two rounds. With an average of 44 new servants from each contingent spell, that's 836 additional helpers that can Aid you on your skill check. Count 'em, 2,489 nanites in action. When the Big Check comes around, your bonus is now +7,467 Anyone up for converting the entire Abyss to Lawful Good? Deciphering the Necronomicon in 6 seconds? How about a mile-and-a-half jump? Or maybe just listen to sound of the heart arrhythmia in every DM on the planet who reads this build?
RadicalTaoist 07-07-05, 09:58 AM	I'm more scared of what you could do with a UMD check...but that's a different debate. How about lying to Ilsensine's face and it believing you? Or Spotting a bacterium dying from several miles away?
Taeldrin Laesrash 07-08-05, 10:41 AM	I just noticed something while looking at the H.I.V.E. Hive Mind, the ability of a 10th-level Vermin Lord, give one point of attack bonus or skill bonus per point of Vermin Lord's Intellegence to all who have been 'hived'. So if you Hive Mind a Fine swarm, you have about a +15,000 bonus to anything.
LordKiwi 07-08-05, 11:01 AM	I just noticed something while looking at the H.I.V.E. Hive Mind, the ability of a 10th-level Vermin Lord, give one point of attack bonus or skill bonus per point of Vermin Lord's Intellegence to all who have been 'hived'. So if you Hive Mind a Fine swarm, you have about a +15,000 bonus to anything. I believe it's one Skill Rank per Int mod per HD, so you have a cap of level+3. Lord Kiwi,
AlienFromBeyond 07-08-05, 10:55 PM	I think he more means ahving all the individual members of the swarm using Aid Another on you. But I may be wrong.
SigmaJargon 07-09-05, 12:55 AM	That could work... if the individual memeber of a swarm had actions. I'm afraid they don't, however, so that probably won't fly. (Just to note, a H.I.V.E. with a single fine-sized swarm gains 98 additional skill points per HD, or a total of 1960 ranks at level 20. It might not give you high modifiers in your skill checks, but you surely will have the most professions, be the most knowledgable, and play so many instruments so even bards will bow down to your breadth of musical knowledge.)
LordofProcrastination 07-09-05, 04:45 AM	If you're big on versatility and breadth of capability, go for "Ancestral Knowledge" from Races of Stone, which allows untrained knowledge checks, opening the door for you to make any knowledge check you want, and your nanobots (be they objects, animals, undead, or unseen servants) to fill in the rest. Similar feats include "Breadth of Knowledge" (Unearthed Arcana) and "Killoren Ancient" (Races of the Wild), for your non-Dwarven characters. Food for thought. And power.
Part-Human2 07-09-05, 10:15 PM	Where are the stats for Animated Fine objects? They don't appear in the books. Animated Objects of size Tiny appear to be the smallest size allowable. If you've extended the rules to allow Fine Animated Objects, a DM would likely not agree with you if you said your rules would allow this build.
aelryinth 07-10-05, 12:56 AM	I have to agree, I don't believe creatures without intelligence can use skills that require intellect. Nor is Aid Another one of the actions allowed animated objects. Is there a Mass Fox's Cunning spell? Also, I believe to help an attack roll or an AC you must perform your Aid Another against the source of the attack roll or against the creature you are attempting to get the AC against (they are opening the creature up to your attacks, or interfering with its attacks against you). Lastly, I believe the Nightsticks have to be held to be used, and I don't think you are allowed to carry more then one or two in your hands (rod/staff slot, no scoping the rules). Using up four turning attempts persists whether or not you pick up new nightsticks. The 'extra' turn attempts have already been used...thus carrying all them nightsticks gives you no benefit beyond the two in your hands, a maximum of 8 turn attempts extra per day. I could be wrong, but it's a very reasonable restriction on the additive powers of the Nightsticks. ==Aelryinth
LordofProcrastination 07-10-05, 03:25 AM	Alright, looks like time for another round of clarification. 1) Non-intelligent creatures and action capabilities: This issue was debated at length and resolved on the previous page of this thread. One of the key deciding factors in this issue was taking a look back at the actual rules from page 312 of the Monsters Manual that dictate non-intelligent-creature behavior. On that note, you'll find that the mechanics of Aid Another involve a flat DC 10/AC 10 check, not a variable result. Yes, for the attack/AC option, the creatures must be in the same square as the target, but considering their size, it will very rarely be an issue. In short, kindly check the literature on this topic, and then make a rules-argument if you still have one. I'm not hostile to debate, I just don't want to answer the same questions every other page. 2) The Nightsticks: This is for the maximal build, and probably only a minor issue for everyday nano-builds. Technically, this character can have a Nightstick in one hand, a staff in the other, and whenever the need comes to replace either, drop it as a free action and pick up a new one as a move action. Even this nicety isn't necessary. Rod activation is deliberately left item-specific by the DMG, and in Libris Mortis, the nightstick description simply says "anyone who possesses the rod..." rather than "anyone who holds the rod." The usual, reasonable definition of possession is having the item on one's person or among one's possessions, so holding isn't strictly necessary. Even if a DM rules that hand-gripping is necessary, the combo still works. Naturally, house rule limitations are determinable by personal perogative, but that's outside the jurisdiction of the Character Optimization Boards. 3) Animated Object Sizing: The real question at hand here. The animate objects spell specifically says this: "You may animate one Small or smaller object (such as a chair) or an equivalent number of larger objects per caster level. [...] The Monster Manual has game statistics for animated objects." The first sentence is a very clear mandate for players to designate objects of any size for their targets of animation. Simple enough. Jump to the Monster Manual for more details. Now, when we get to the Monsters Manual, there are a number of game statistics information sources available to us. The first is the direct entry for Animated Objects, the second is the several Appendices that rule on monster nuances, and the third is the the Glossary which contains vital definitions. Between the three of these, all in the Monster Manual, the "game statistics" for animated objects can be described. The direct entry provides us the starting ground-- basic characteristics, flavor, and ability-customization options. The glossary is where we find further elaboration on what it means to be "mindless" or "constructs," also essential features. The appendices contain the rules for encompassing creatures not yet fully described by the direct entries. We've already used, discussed, and accepted rulings from two of these sections, and it's finally time to bring in the third: appendices. This is all to set the background for my immediate answer to the fact that Diminuative and Fine version of animated objects are not found in the direct entry: ----Take the animated object entry for Tiny animated objects, and use the Monster Manual game statistics to figure out what a Diminuative or Fine animated object is. This information is contained in the appendices. The table for sizing creatures can be found on page 291 of the Monster Manual. It's really quite simple. The fact of the matter is that the animate objects spell says that: A) We can animate objects of any size and B) To use game statistics from the Monster Manual. My argument is that dealing with various sizes of creatures is a game statistic dealt with in the Monster Manual, so there's no reason not to use those statistical rulings. As a side note, I will point out that there is no ruling in the Monster Manual saying that the listed size entries are comprehensive or completely exclusive. To wit, we have no direct entry for a pixie zombie, but there's no doubting that anyone could create one for a CO exercise using Monster Manual rules and everyone would find it legitimate. Mechanics and uber-close readings aside, it seems very much in the spirit of the spell and the direct MM entry to allow Fine and Diminuative animated objects. I'll end with a direct quote from the Monster Manual direct entry: "Animated objects come in all sizes, shapes and colors."
LordKiwi 07-11-05, 07:14 AM	Alright, looks like time for another round of clarification. Most long threads end up going round in circles in the end because there is too much material for a newcomer to read. I would suggest giving a short summary, and post links, in the FAQ in the first post to known rules arguments to help avoid this. Lord Kiwi,
LordofProcrastination 07-16-05, 05:39 PM	Huzzah! LordKiwi's suggestions have been followed and now any newcomer should have all the essential questions answered on his or her first read-through of the thread. It's all in the updated FAQ (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6613296&postcount=1). Any questions I've missed before I can move on to further nano-fun?
amalcon 07-16-05, 08:24 PM	Just one *little* problem with this trick. The SRD description of Aid Another states that: In many cases, a character’s help won’t be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once. In other words, Aid Another includes the common and useful mechanic of "The DM gets to veto this without it being considered a houserule." Very few of the skills in the game can reasonably be aided by animated adamantine spheres. Even fewer could reasonably be helped by 20 or more of them. That aside, however, I must say: Very cool. edit: Incidentally, if you assume that everything about this is rules-acceptable, and that the UMD/staff thing is cool, you'll shatter your record easily using a staff to do your animating (and helping yourself use the staff).
LordofProcrastination 07-16-05, 09:17 PM	In other words, Aid Another includes the common and useful mechanic of "The DM gets to veto this without it being considered a houserule." Very few of the skills in the game can reasonably be aided by animated adamantine spheres. Amalcon has hit the topic of nanobot flavor-accessibility right on the button. An adamantine sphere is hardly the ideal source of aid for a variety of skills, but then again, animated objects (or animated basic geometric shapes for that matter) hardly represent the breadth of nanotechnology possibilities. End result: A need for inventive, flavorful nanites or interesting in-game interpretations/schemes for existing nanobots to make things work. Here's my shot at some portable basics: Flavorful Nanobots for Fun Skills Looking for something? Animate a collection of glass shards or lenses that amalgamates into a 360-degree variable-magnification micro/tele-scope for all your Spot or Search checks. Maybe a spellcraft check or simply smart instructions could have your unseen servants bend the light passing through them a bit for a similar affect. How about stealth? I'm a fan of camouflage-colored cloth strips that muffle your steps (Move Silently) and blend your entire team into the shadows (Hide). Boguns, prying eyes, and Bats already have hide-bonuses, so they're ready to roll from the get-go. Mobility skills like Jump, Balance, Tumble, and Climb fare well enough with the image of hundreds of invisible, supportive pressures, or zestified by a set of well-trained springs. Nanobots are probably toughest to sell when it comes to mental efforts. Then again, in a magical world, nonscientific explanations that would come off as New Age fluff in real life could hold serious weight in a superstitious world with multiple corresponding sub-systems/explanatory models of power derivation. Who knows, maybe a massive array of antennae really is the thing to focusing one's mind (Autohypnosis or Knowledge checks). Acupuncture needles or massage balls could relax the body into ignoring outside distractions, improving Concentration. For mystical types, rare-material objects or inherently magical minions could be commanded to subtlety redirect natural flows of magic to improve one's own arcane efforts (Spellcraft). Precision skills definitely work well with the right tools. Does an animated swarm of surgical instruments (Heal, Disable Device, Forgery, Open Lock) sound like modern robo-mechanical assistance or a pack of interns to anybody else? Charismatic efforts most likely are best attuned to the personal flavor of the character as well. For some, a scintillating array of semiprecious stones swirling harmoniously around one's body could be just the thing to distract (Bluff) or awe (Diplomacy) potential targets. Intimidating nanobots might hearken back to surgical tools or other spiky-looking threatening hordes, or just freak enemies out with the sense that they're being silently watched from every angle (prying eyes or unseen servants). I'd mention the potential of having your own thousand-piece band/chorus/orchestra for accompaniment, but I'm guessing that most Nano-Bards are already having a ball Performing for their friends and enemies. Well, that's my shot at flavorful nanobots. Any fun suggestions from the crowd?
Tempest Stormwind 07-16-05, 09:54 PM	I'd suggest crystalline objects for anything transparent (by the way, multiple lenses = powerful microscope. Given how loupes and lenses boost Appraise, imagine what this could do. For objects by weight, simply look at the various Strength scores of these devices, or what weight they can support before they drop). This has two advantages: 1) Psionic effects have an affinity for crystals. This means that you can better explain some of the mental affinities as generated psionic resonance (see the Shards (http://srd.pbemnexus.com/psionicItemsU.html) for samples of this), and (due to psionics-magic transparency) accomplish similar feats to your supernatural ones listed above. 2) There's already an easy way to carry all of these, although it takes a wee bit of revising -- Hover Field (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20021220a). A sample revision is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=3505055&postcount=95), although I would have handled it differently (for instance, it's not out of range of a 1st level power to move "one object per level" subject to a total weight limit, which is itself augmentable). This means you aren't limited to the speed of the nanites, and you can move them as YOU see fit (if you revise the power that way). This is an amazing thread, by the way.
Lokiyn 07-17-05, 02:10 AM	When the Big Check comes around, your bonus is now +7,467 i'm surprised that no one has brought up the rules for gaining dark craft exp and gp from the BoVD. In a couple of goes with this you can easily get roughly 22k per try and use the Dark exp to craft that ring of infinate wishes you always wanted. lets see 5000xp per wish and you need that x100 to make a use at will item..... thats 500,000exp needed (plus a bit for the item) so that come to about 23 days to gather the exp needed..... Wow this is quite entertaining. Or conversly you build a quantity of magic item thats use ativated that produces servent hordes. its not like your hurting on exp or gp (it is a bit evil, but when you get handed 37gp work of dark gp or 560,400 gp worth of dark exp then i guess you can reason it away....)
LordofProcrastination 07-17-05, 02:35 AM	Probably the reason that the Book of Vile Darkness hasn't been brought up is the general drive to keep this thread 3.5-relevant. On the topic of 3.xx material, if the Epic Level Handbook is in use for your game, those Epic Spells with outrageous Spellcraft DCs are instantly available to the lowliest of epic characters. Experience and gold costs are still rough, but hey... EDIT: BoVD Sacrifice combo removed after rules clarification invalidating the trick.
Zubon 07-17-05, 02:59 PM	Concerning flavorful nanobots: "A sheetlike object can fly (clumsy maneuverability) at half its normal speed." Remember when justifying to your DM that most of the objects cannot fly. The image of hundreds of floating adamantine balls is appealing, and one can see how they would easily assist in Jump, for example ("I have thousands of metal spheres supporting me as I leap to the top of the mountain"), but they might have issues since they only roll about. They do not hover. They could stack atop one another easily enough (Climb check, here we come!), but there are limits to what a sphere can do. Maybe use Fabricate to make thousands of Fine adamantine pixies. I hope you maxed ranks in Craft(Sculpting). Is a basket sufficiently sheetlike, or can the lid flutter? I like the idea of Craft(Basketweaving) being a source of nigh-endless power. At any rate, remember that we live and die by the rules, and the rules may not give your animated objects the abilities that spring to mind. Your adamantine spheres can, however, do many things, especially given that they can roll, hop (Jump), and stack themselves. Improving your AC and aiding an attack seem to be easy to justify. Hey, there are thousands of spheres tripping you up, and you plan to dodge? You plan to hit me through this mound of metal? Hide is another potential issue. It is easy to justify your hiding, especially given that you could have total cover from a layer of animated objects. The issue is their hiding, since they are using Aid Another rather than Hide. The same could easily apply to Move Silently. Sure, you are silent and invisible, but the orcs noticed thousands of scuttling objects, so they are going to investigate. You get around many of these issues with Unseen Servants or carefully selected objects, but remember that animated objects only have so much power infused into them. If you can give them better shapes or mobility, your explanatory ability goes up very quickly. Great idea with the magical pseudo-science, by the way. Super antennae, animated crystals, magic-channeling matter... yes yes, we can work with this... Perhaps a useful table would be a list of ideas for what sorts of objects would work well for each purpose. A few thoughts: Survival (Get along in the wild): Animate every bit of (dead) wood, rock, debris, etc. in the area. These will dig up edible mushrooms, point the way to water, swarm over small game, etc. The poor deer, being attacked by hundreds of animated leaves... Your skill check of 1d20 +23 (ranks) -9 (lend talent) +3 (Skill Focus) +4 (Skill Artistry) +2 (synergy) +2 (Self Sufficient) +4 (Wisdom 18) +7,467 (Aid Another) feeds 3,748-3,758 people per day. Your army will have no problems if supply lines are cut. Escape Artist will be a hard one, because it will be hard to do some of this in a situation in which you would need to make the check, besides slipping through a Wall of Force. What exactly you should animate depends on what you are escaping. Tiny blades would work well for many things, such as rope or when making the check to escape a grapple ("Please, hold onto me while hundreds of daggers are carving your flesh away from my body"). Hmm, maybe they should just attack in that case. Anyway, use your magical pseudo-science to explain how these gems/bits of mithral are helping you slip through the Wall of Force (sadly, they cannot follow unless the Aid each other in shifts to get through - untrained is allowed). Decipher Script: Animate dictionary pages (individually), pens, inkpots, paper, whatever will help you look through things. Animate glass shards for the lens idea in picking out details. Use your animated ink and papers to draw comparisons between fifteen versions of the language over the centuries and set them side by side. In this case, you are using all this matter as an inefficient computer, helping your brain process information literally in parallel by putting the options side-by-side. Your library may be a bit cluttered when this is done, but tell them all to clean themselves up. and so on. :)
Lokiyn 07-17-05, 03:32 PM	How small can you make these animated objects. if you could get them small enough then for heal checks you could insert 100's of tiny beads or tiny star shaped bits of biodegradable material that help you repair the body from the inside out. Hide could be explained with multicolored beads that cover you and your equipment and make a perfect camouflage effect.
AlienFromBeyond 07-17-05, 03:44 PM	i'm surprised that no one has brought up the rules for gaining dark craft exp and gp from the BoVD. I thought Aid Another couldn't be used on a Knowledge (Religion) check when used to sacrifice someone.
LordofProcrastination 07-17-05, 03:53 PM	After a closer reading of the Sacrifice rules from the Book of Vile Darkness, I believe that AlienFromBeyond is absolutely correct, "no one else can help with the check." Consider another form of potential 3.xx abuse tossed out the door. On a happier note, great work with the extra flavor options for nanobots, everyone! I intend to link/cite these fun ideas into the primary thread-opener posts for easy access, so keep the innovation coming!
Lokiyn 07-17-05, 05:43 PM	After a closer reading of the Sacrifice rules from the Book of Vile Darkness, I believe that AlienFromBeyond is absolutely correct, "no one else can help with the check." Consider another form of potential 3.xx abuse tossed out the door. my mistake, its been a while since i'v done more than glance at it. Anyway if anyone has seen Spirited Away [english title] you might recall the little animated dust mites that worked down in the furnace room. And of course who can forget Beauty and the beast by disney or the cinderella animation with the mice helping with the craft dress check (or would it be disguise? ;) )
ronyon 07-18-05, 01:26 AM	To bad there isnt any ranged Aid anymore-3.0 artifact.Actually it was silly so.. I love Undead, and Clerics, so all my contributions will follow these lines. First, consider the lowly Shadow. They spawn. You can control the "linchpin", and through it, the rest. And just how many Incorporeal shadows can fit in the same space as you and each other? -I dislike using sentient undead, epecially spawning types, so what about those Fine skeletons? My usual source for special bodies is the lesser plannar binding spell. Are there any swarms of fine outsiders or elementals. A hellwasp swarm might work. Hmm. Well, call the right swarm, if it exists, and murder it. I prefer to call the low level, the "irredeemably" evil , or some thing of animal inteligence or lower. This lowers the amount of anger that such "fishing" might draw. The evil outsider (imp, quasit) has the added benifit of being humen shaped, so most skills translate, and the often have a flight speed. Making a Small skelton into a Fine skeleton seems well withen the range of permenat for the use of PaO. All lot of work for such pay off. - Any spell that grants total control over a living subject could work for this aplication. A few not yet mentioned include True Domination, Necrototic Domination and Necrotic Tumor. The last of thses is 7th level, but it is practically free and permanant for use aginst crunchies. -A note on equiping disposable minions. Tower Sheilds work even if the user is nonproficient, Hide Sheilds have only a -2 to skills(rumor) and work the same way as a Tower Sheild( rumor). an both offer Cover. If yor minion isnt attacking Cover is a good option. Bolos, lassos, Whips, Splash Weapons and spiked chains all offer cool reach options, and allow attacks that are great if they work, but suck if failed at. Tripping is a good example; do you really care if 20 of your minions die trying to set up the BEBG for your parties take downs ? -My vote for Animated Object would be Admantium Foil "paper " Dolls. Tough, flexible,flavorable, flyable. - What about other Minions as Aids? -Vermin, vermin control armor enhancmemt,The Spider Domain -Snakes and reptiles, The ScaleyKind Domain,Shocker Lizards - Elementals , The Fire ,Water,Air,and Earth Domains, Mephlings,Dragons! -Plants, Plant domain,Those mushoom men things... - Is the Crawling Claw 3.5? -Hre is my solution for cayrrying extra Undead. Use a Shadow version of Lemunds Secret Chest. No expensive components, and you can store extra uncontroled undead in it, to be recalled instantly. Need sleep...Hpoe I comtriblvfv...zZzz
LordofProcrastination 07-23-05, 03:09 PM	Progress in the Nano-world this week! Handshakes all around for contributors to the Skill-Flavor development project. The many ideas garnered have been moved to the front of the thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=6613305#post6613305) for ease of access. Also, superdank has made a side-thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=469334) for the discussion of the "Nanobomb" -- using "damage to others upon death" abilities with nanobots to produce massive damage results. The current trick superdank pioneered is an undead mini-legion created by a character with "Destructive Retribution" (a feat from Libris Mortis), which when triggered deals 1d6 negative energy damage per creature to everything in 10 ft. Given typical sizing limts and 2-dimensional combat, that's 2400d6 for a full Fine nanoswarm around a Medium target. Impressive! Coming soon: Full-Combat Development!
IThoughtISawA... 07-26-05, 06:13 PM	Be warned- this build horribly abuses Thought Bottle (which we all agree is horribly broken)- and takes over three months to reach its final end result. ... but some things (like +182,400 to a skill... no that is NOT a typo) are worth waiting for Classes: Cleric 1/Artificer 5/ Outcast Champion 4/ Exemplar 9 (yes, only 19th level, see below) XP: 189,999 (1 XP shy of 20th level, we need that XP for Artificer Infusions) Race: Half-Elf Domain Magic and Planning Base Caster Level: Cleric 2, Artificer 10 Feats: Extend Spell (Planning Domain), Nymph’s Kiss (1st), Skill Focus (Use Magic Device) (3rd), Twin Spell (6th), Repeat Spell (9th), Endurance (12th), Practiced Spellcaster (Artificer) (15th), Quick Draw (19th) Items: Staff of Nano-Dominance (see below- 80,345 GP), Orange Ion Stone (40,000 gp), Headband of Intellect +6 (36,000), Thought Bottle (20,000 gp), Tome of Clear Thought +4 (110, 000), Metamagic Rod (lesser extend) (3,000 gp), Metamagic Rod (lesser quicken x4) (140,000 gp), Pearl of Power (3rd level x 9) (81,000 gp), Bag of Holding Type IV (10,000 gp), Scroll of Giant Size (caster level 19) 3,325 gp ---523,670 GP spent (leaves plenty to buy weird little things to animate Statistics of Note: Intelligence 18 (base) +4 (levels, remember, level 19) +4 (tome) + 6 (Headband) = Intelligence 32 (3 bonus 3rd level spells) Staff of Nano-Dominance (80,345 gp) ---Minor Servitor (SSp608) 375 * CL 9 * SL 5 + (50 * [XP Cost 250 *5]) = 79,375 ---Detect Magic 375 * CL 9 * SL.5 *.75 (second function) * .5 (2 charges) = 970 gp Limited to animating one Cubic foot objects or smaller Unfortunate Technicalities: This build does have one flaw- spell/infusion transparency. Simply put, infusions are not spells but follow all the rules for spells, including metamagic feats. This build uses several things (Practiced Spellcaster, Metamagic Rods, Orange Ion Stone) to increase its “Infuser” (for lack of a better term) level. Whether this will fly in your campaign is a question to raise with your DM. By any sort of reading into the infusion ability (ECS p31), this should work- “They function just like spells and follow all the rules for spells… like a spellcaster an artificer may apply metmagic feats to his infusions… etc.” By the RAW it doesn’t work, but in any sort of remotely reasonable game/ contest it should. Preparation (note: this is a 90 day buildup, however once built, this nano-army stays) Day 1: Round 1: Store XP in Thought Bottle. Round 2: Take Deep Breath and prepare for a long marathon. Get a good night’s sleep. Day 2 (early): Round 1: Cast Power Surge on Staff of Nano-Dominance (adding two charges) Round 2: Use Extending Rod to cast an Extended Metamgaic Item (Twin Spell) on SoND, Use Quicken and Extending Rod to cast an Extended, Quickened Metamagic Item (Repeat Spell) on SoND Round 3: Activate SoND Round 4: Activate SoND Round 5: Use Quickening Rod to cast a Quickened Power Surge on SoND, retain Power Surge using a Pearl of Power, Activate SoND Round 6- 23: As Rounds 4 and 5. Round 24: Marvel at 160 permanently animated (and intelligent) objects, then go to bed and sleep for 8 hours. Day 2 (Afternoon): Meditate for 15 minutes Round 1- 24: As Day 2 (early) Day 2 (Evening): Meditate for 15 minutes Round 1- 24: As Day 2 (early) Day 3-96 As Day 2, pausing after 739, 719, 699, 679, 659, 639, 619, 599 and 579 uses to restore XP from our Thought Bottle and restore our new (reduced) XP. Day 97+ (The Big Day) Ultimately our nano-army will cost 4,500 XP (ouch) after being reduced and restored. We will have activated our SoND 3,495 times without using a single charge. We will have 47,448 permanently animated fine (or larger, up to tiny if we want) objects. Round 1-3: Activate Lend Talent to 3 skills of choice (apply to UMD if you use the UMD-caster level interpretation and buy a staff with gate… prepare to laugh). Round 4: Cast Giant Size off scroll using your crazy (even without the Lend Talent) Use Magic Device roll. Grow to Colossal and gain a face of 30 and a height of 70. For each 5’ of height (14) we have 28 adjoining squares for a total of 392 squares. Our top “face” is 64 squares, for a total of 456 adjoining squares. With 100 fine animated objects in each square, that’s 45,600 objects that will be able to assist us (the other 2k can just sit there and watch). Round 4: Order Objects to Assist us and gain +4 (Outcast Champion’s “Teamwork” ability, RoD p 127) for each, for a GRAND TOTAL of: +182,400 to our skill check. Yes, +182,400. I think this might qualify as the "skills" Hulking Hurler. PS- each item has an intelligence of 3d6, qualifying the entire build for Marshall aura's as well. I'm not sure how tob est go about that addition, but its definitely sometihng to think about. *edited to add the PS
lostone 07-27-05, 07:13 AM	I don't have my books here or I'd look for it, but where is Power Surge from? I'm assuming something like Complete Arcane. Nice build (I'm amazed I followed it so well without my books, it is very well explained compaired to some record-breaking builds).
IThoughtISawA... 07-27-05, 07:57 AM	Power Surge is an ECS Artificer Infusion (3rd level) that adds one charge/ 5 levels to a wand or staff. It costs (5 x highest level spell in the item) XP per casting (hence the need for the thought bottle abuse). The funny part is that TECHNICALLY, the build doesn't need the Metamagic Item/Powersurge/metamagic rods/pearls of power abuse to reach its final modifier- just to make reaching that modifier take a somewhat reasonable amount of time.
Tha Sage 07-27-05, 10:05 PM	Something to consider: Using the Chain Spell feat in combination with Animate Water/Fire, which are 1st and 2nd level spells, respectively. Excellent work, by the way. :D
Dragon3 08-08-05, 07:37 PM	What about rules for mobs or swarms? Will that modify the bonuses to hit and ac? I'm still trying to find where but I think a DM will quite likely make the nanobots into a swarm and use the rules according. :) I looked further in Libris Morris for swarm subtype. It seem to apply up to Tiny critters. Whoop there go your records. Each swarm would seem to be a singular creature for the purpose of aid other. Now what? :)
AlienFromBeyond 08-08-05, 10:00 PM	Why would they become a Swarm? You're not summoning/creating a swarm, so there's no reason for it to be one. THey are creations under your control, and your DM shouldn't just say that they're suddenly a swarm and thus act as one creature.
Dragon3 08-08-05, 10:42 PM	Well a player on these board mentioned he used 50 bats to up his ac by 100. Isn't this a swarm of bats? I mean most dm would rule that the 50 bats constitute a swarm since this does exist and use the rule for it according. Heh I'm not arguing about the nifty idea of nanobots but thought I'll mention the bats or rats or flies swarm etc.
SigmaJargon 08-08-05, 11:04 PM	Well a player on these board mentioned he used 50 bats to up his ac by 100. Isn't this a swarm of bats? I mean most dm would rule that the 50 bats constitute a swarm since this does exist and use the rule for it according. Heh I'm not arguing about the nifty idea of nanobots but thought I'll mention the bats or rats or flies swarm etc.Fifty, or a hundred or a thousand or any number of seperate bats is completely different from a swarm of bats. Swarms of bats are useful tools for the DM to control and use hundreds or thousands of creatures together without the hassle of having to roll each and every creature's attack, saves, and so forth. However, this does not prevent the DM or a player from using a like number of bats seperately, if they do so choose. You cannot assume simply because there are X number of bats that they become a swarm.
lostone 08-09-05, 07:28 AM	Swarm is a seperate creature type just like Dragon, Undead, Construct, Aberration. The Swarm type indicates that there is some kind of hive mind or telepathic communication that allows the group of creatures to coordinate and function as a single creature. AFAIK there is no effective way for a player to give 100 bats (of the Animal type) the Swarm type. If they don't have the swarm type they are more disorganized and will act individually even if they have the same goal such as attacking a single creature.
lostone 09-05-05, 11:45 AM	Has anyone actually used this in a game?
primetimekiller 09-05-05, 11:56 AM	noone actually uses such builds in a game! noone really plays the hivemind or the word and the wish or the hulking hurler they are not as much fun to play as they are to read... by the way what dm would allow you stuff like this ;)
SigmaJargon 09-05-05, 12:19 PM	noone actually uses such builds in a game! noone really plays the hivemind or the word and the wish or the hulking hurler they are not as much fun to play as they are to read... by the way what dm would allow you stuff like this ;)LordKiwi actually played the H.I.V.E. in an epic game. Such things are possible, but you have to make sure to pull your punchs somewhat. That is, don't go for a +182k Nanobot build, shoot for a more likable yet still suitably epic +100 or +200, and it becomes playable and even somwhat balanced when it comes to epic levels.
lostone 09-05-05, 01:06 PM	noone actually uses such builds in a game! noone really plays the hivemind or the word and the wish or the hulking hurlerI was curious. My DM would lay me out with a single punch if I asked to play something like this. :P
g23armani 09-05-05, 01:19 PM	One problem with the original build...you can't apply practiced spellcaster twice to the same spellcasting class: "Special: you may select this feat multiple times. Each time you choose it, you must apply it to a different spellcasting class" G23armani
Chaos116882 09-05-05, 01:21 PM	what is the word and the wish build\? ive never heard of that one
Tempest Stormwind 09-05-05, 08:17 PM	what is the word and the wish build\? ive never heard of that one http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4850618 Not quite as bad as the H.I.V.E. or Pun-Pun, but more controversial.
lostone 09-06-05, 08:07 AM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4850618 Not quite as bad as the H.I.V.E. or Pun-Pun, but more controversial.I personally feel that being able to cast Wish at will is worse than the H.I.V.E., but that is just me. Then again it has been months since I even glanced at the H.I.V.E. so I may be remembering it wrong. What's Pun-Pun?
Pyrthas 09-06-05, 08:15 AM	What's Pun-Pun?The most powerful character. EVER. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801)
RadicalTaoist 09-21-05, 12:20 PM	Special Nanopower Announcement The Outcast Champion prestige class in Races of Destiny grants an aura which increases the bonus to Aid Another by 2.
Lokiyn 09-21-05, 05:02 PM	Another addition to the nanopower thread. In sandstorm we have reference to the smallest constructs written in dnd at the moment. Each of these constructs is the same size as a grain of sand. Now as to how many size categories a grain of sand is below the current min and if you could apply animate object to it i have no idea. But it does remind me of venom from the old spiderman books. (the organic cells of the venom suit that aids the guy with beatdowns ;) )
Uthred 09-21-05, 07:28 PM	1) The animate objects spell and the Animated Object monster entry As I discussed earlier, here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6618808&postcount=28), it appears that the animate objects spell and the Monster Manual entry are inextricably intertwined. It is necessary to use the rules-descriptions from both to say what can happen. ---A. The animate objects spell specifically tells casters to use the Monster Manual entry to find out the game statistics (i.e. what they can do) of animated objects. ---B. The MM entry says that they "follow orders without question and to the best of their abilities." Thus, animated objects are pliable to their master's instructions and can take actions within the realm of their capabilities. The general argument for "non-Int" creatures aside, the Exemplar Lend Talent aura means that successfully passing DC 10 or higher skill checks is clearly within their range of abilities. In my opinion this is where your arguement falls down. You correctly state the the animate objects spell instructs you to use the MM for statistics specifically it says "The Monster Manual has game statistics for animated objects", however you seem to be mis-interpereting this sentence by using the "Descriptive Text" portion of the animated object entry in the Monster Manual rather than the "Game Statistics" portion. As the spell directly references the statistics only and the "Reading the Entries" portion of the MM clearly differentiates between statistics and descriptive text then it does become a somewhat dubious interpretation of the spell. Further evidence against your postion can be found in the animate object spell description which mentions that "you can chanage the designated target or targets as a move action, as if directing an active spell", if you could infact have the animated objects do more than attack wouldnt this be a logical place to put that information ?
deathwishjoe 10-12-05, 10:59 PM	And just how many Incorporeal shadows can fit in the same space as you and each other? this was a really good question that didnt seem to have been answered. anyone got an answer. is the answer effectivly infinite?
Lyinginbedmon 10-28-05, 07:05 PM	One thing I'd like to know: Can this be done with just Core 3.5 material? :confused:
Tempest Stormwind 10-28-05, 07:12 PM	One thing I'd like to know: Can this be done with just Core 3.5 material? :confused: A simplified version, yes. To this magnitude, no. Aside: In 3.0 I played a druid with a bird fixation (lots of hawks and owls and similar birds) for precisely this reason, although the results weren't on this level.
Lyinginbedmon 10-29-05, 04:27 PM	A simplified version, yes. To this magnitude, no. You'll excuse me I hope if I sound clueless here but, how? :confused:
Tempest Stormwind 10-29-05, 10:00 PM	You'll excuse me I hope if I sound clueless here but, how? :confused: The easiest way in a core-only environment involves a druid with Summon Nature's Ally (1d4+1 lower-level versions, preferrably flyers), an animal companion, a potential cohort and a wand or staff (saves spell slots). This can't grant you anywhere near the same amounts, and it's not long-term, but it can grant the same style of effects (lots of things using Aid Another for a huge return on your own investment). I'm hardly a nanobot master, but this is a highly simplified version of their techniques. Remember, the core of Nanobots is Aid Another applied ludicriously (i.e. beyond what a party can usually provide).
Lyinginbedmon 10-30-05, 05:43 AM	Thank you :devil:
AlienFromBeyond 11-14-05, 05:55 PM	The Outcast Champion prestige class in Races of Destiny grants an aura which increases the bonus to Aid Another by 2. Technically, it increases the bonus from +2 to +4. Enough to not allow it with Kenku if you're being a nitpicky rules lawyer. So for the build that takes this to the extreme, either get levels in Outcast Champion to go 1 higher from Aid Another, or get Leadership and have your cohort have it. If you can get the Outcast Champion ability and the Kenku's ability to work, then definitely go Leadership, and watch the numbers sky-rocket.
RadicalTaoist 11-14-05, 10:14 PM	Technically, it increases the bonus from +2 to +4. Enough to not allow it with Kenku if you're being a nitpicky rules lawyer. So for the build that takes this to the extreme, either get levels in Outcast Champion to go 1 higher from Aid Another, or get Leadership and have your cohort have it. If you can get the Outcast Champion ability and the Kenku's ability to work, then definitely go Leadership, and watch the numbers sky-rocket. Not so. The exact wording of the ability is "the bonus provided on attack rolls, AC, or skill checks improves by two (from +2 to +4)." As far as I can tell, the section in parentheses does not supersede that outside.
AlienFromBeyond 11-15-05, 03:17 AM	Not so. The exact wording of the ability is "the bonus provided on attack rolls, AC, or skill checks improves by two (from +2 to +4)." As far as I can tell, the section in parentheses does not supersede that outside. *rereads* Right, nevermind. You're right, I'm not lol. Here's to +5 from Aid Another!
IThoughtISawA... 11-15-05, 01:01 PM	Unfortunately,t he racial requirements for outcast champion make working it into a kenku extremely difficult, ne tortured. I tried before posting the nono-record back in post 85 (which used OutChamp), but short of the racial attunement rituals it just didn't really work. Wait... what type of ability is the kenku's? If its granted by shapechange, then bam! new bonus off my old 182,400 is (math bad, wait, diveide by four, multiply by five, eat a slice of pie), BAM +228,000 to the skill check. Wow. ~IThoughtISawA...
cvazi 11-15-05, 02:22 PM	Someone (I believe Radical Taoist) desired to find out how much damage Nano+Affinity Field+Suicide Nova can do. Wiser heads than I know how to make the nano-bots, but I can provide the damage equations: (Number of involved creatures)x(75% Spell Damage)x(Sumation[x=1 to n]:n^2) Where n=Number of Affinity Fields. The suicide nova works by using Affinity Field to pass "Shared Pain, Forced" to all the nano-bots who target the enemy. You then drop and AoE damage spell on yourself and all your nano-bots and watch your opponent crumble to dust. Standard Affinity Field will grant you 2 affinity fields (You and your Crystal), making the sumation equation (1^2+2^2) 5 times the damage. Add fission into the mix, and you get 6 fields (you, your fission, both you and your fission have 2 psi-crystals) making the sumation (1^2+2^2+. . .+6^2) 91 times the damage. So a quick conservative damage count (using Post 61 as a guide) is: 2,489x15(d6+1)x91 is approximately 3.4 billion d6 or 15.3 billion damage Add cohorts/followers and your nano's using UPD to activate powerstones of Affinity Field, and your damage will exponentially increase. Divide +7,467 to UPD by 30 will give you how many powerstones of affinity field you can activate (nanites helping each other out to activate the powerstones) = 249 powerstones. Crazy Damage Calculation: 2,489x15(d6+1)x5,177,125 = 7.1x10^10 (d6+1) = 3.2x10^11 Damage
Lyinginbedmon 11-15-05, 03:29 PM	I've been working on a build to be make best use of prying eyes to use this trick. Be warned, this build involves a little rule-bending on a Loremaster ability Sorcerer 1 Empower Spell Sorcerer 2 Sorcerer 3 Maximise Spell Sorcerer 4 Sorcerer 5 Sorcerer 6 Extend Spell Sorcerer 7 Sorcerer 8 Sorcerer 9 Skill Focus (spellcraft) Sorcerer 10 Sorcerer 11 Sorcerer 12 Spell Focus (evocation) Sorcerer 13 Sorcerer 14 Archmage 1 Spell Power, Skill Focus (knowledge (spellcraft)) Archmage 2 Spell-Like Ability (prying eyes) Archmage 3 Spell Power [**Item: Ring of Epic Wizardry V (250,000 GP)] Loremaster 1 Applicable Knowledge (Improved Spell Capacity*) [Non-epic Feat] [**Item: 50 charge Ring of Prying Eyes (48,750 GP)] Archmage 4 Spell-Like Ability (maximised, empowered, prying eyes) Archmage 5 Spell Power Total: Caster Level 23 at Level 20 *Bending the rules a little, it says ANY feat, not just non-epic etc. and the Player's Handbook V3.5 was published after the Epic Level Handbook, even if it was 3.0, reality logic makes it plausible to believe it is possible to use Applicable Knowledge in this manner. It is necessary to acquire the 10th level spell slot for the Spell-Like Ability, but the removal of this allows an extra Spell Power, and removes 58 eyes from the end calculation, an average of (775+102) 877 **I've checked in the Dungeon Master's Guide against Character Wealth by Level (Page 135) and you can buy both of these items by a minimum of 17th level and still have 41,250 GP left over So, this means that using just 1 spell-like prying eyes, you can create 28 eyes, and you also have 50 more prying eyes creating between 14 and 17 more eyes from the Ring of Prying Eyes, and you also have another 4 prying eyes thanks to the left over slots and the Ring of Epic Wizardry V doubling the spell slots for that spell level. That's a grand total of: 700-850 eyes [13 hours, cast in 50 minutes] (Ring of Prying Eyes (50 charges) 144-162 eyes [23 hours, cast in 6 minutes] (3 ordinary spells, *2 from RoEW5) 48-54 eyes [23 hours, cast in 2 minutes] (2 uses of Spell-Like Ability (prying eyes)) 58 eyes [23 hours, cast in 2 minutes] (2 uses of Spell-Like Ability (maximised, empowered, prying eyes)) Total: 950-1124 eyes Average: (775+153+51+58) 1037 *My math may be wrong, so please be nice when correcting me :P* Which makes for a total of +2074 and only Core materials (+1 epic feat) used! :D
RadicalTaoist 11-15-05, 04:39 PM	Someone (I believe Radical Taoist) desired to find out how much damage Nano+Affinity Field+Suicide Nova can do. Wiser heads than I know how to make the nano-bots, but I can provide the damage equations: (Number of involved creatures)x(75% Spell Damage)x(Sumation[x=1 to n]:n^2) Where n=Number of Affinity Fields. The suicide nova works by using Affinity Field to pass "Shared Pain, Forced" to all the nano-bots who target the enemy. You then drop and AoE damage spell on yourself and all your nano-bots and watch your opponent crumble to dust. Standard Affinity Field will grant you 2 affinity fields (You and your Crystal), making the sumation equation (1^2+2^2) 5 times the damage. Add fission into the mix, and you get 6 fields (you, your fission, both you and your fission have 2 psi-crystals) making the sumation (1^2+2^2+. . .+6^2) 91 times the damage. So a quick conservative damage count (using Post 61 as a guide) is: 2,489x15(d6+1)x91 is approximately 3.4 billion d6 or 15.3 billion damage Add cohorts/followers and your nano's using UPD to activate powerstones of Affinity Field, and your damage will exponentially increase. Divide +7,467 to UPD by 30 will give you how many powerstones of affinity field you can activate (nanites helping each other out to activate the powerstones) = 249 powerstones. Crazy Damage Calculation: 2,489x15(d6+1)x5,177,125 = 7.1x10^10 (d6+1) = 3.2x10^11 DamageThank you - I was indeed asking that! I think we can up that. Throw Fate Link on top of everyone, and it should double the damage. Then, just for overkill, Widen the Affinity Fields. Watch Out, Hulking Hurler! This should go in the Nanoaffinity Laboratory thread. I'll post it there.
AlienFromBeyond 11-15-05, 06:13 PM	Unfortunately,t he racial requirements for outcast champion make working it into a kenku extremely difficult, ne tortured. Just have a cohort or something as one.
Lyinginbedmon 11-15-05, 06:23 PM	this was a really good question that didnt seem to have been answered. anyone got an answer. is the answer effectivly infinite? I suppose the question here is really, do shadows overlap each other? In theory yes, in practice probably not, because of the space rules, but being incorporeal I suppose the number could quite easily be infinite, but you'd be seriously breaking said space rules for it... I approve! :D
Khelvaster 11-15-05, 10:49 PM	Wouldn't an Ur-Priest let you cast higher level cleric spells than cleric levels if you multiclass into ur-priest in the middle of your exemplar levels?
LordofProcrastination 11-16-05, 12:47 PM	Lots happening in the wonderful world of nanotechnology these days. Cvazi, Radical Taoist, and the other Nano-Affinity-Bomb enthusiasts have produced some pretty impressive damage numbers of late. Hard as it is for the godfather of nanotech to come down hard on his creations, I feel obligated by my adherence to the rules to point out that there is a fatal flaw in the last step of the trick currently being advocated. To be precise, the proposed activation of a wide number of powerstones by the nanobots themselves using Use Psionic Device is somewhat troublesome because, as with Use Magic Device, the "aid another" action cannot help out with UPD. Worse, UPD/UMD's "Trained Only" distinction means that the nanobots can't even attempt independent activation attempts. Bummer. So, essentially what is needed now to multiply the damage further is a way of obtaining a greater number of affinity fields active. Not being a psionics expert, I'll leave this issue out in the open for group resolution. Perhaps it will come down to another timing issue where the character scraps for every round of iteration duration, as seen in the very first example build. In general, I'm working on updating the core nanobot builds, particularly our archetypical one-shot-wonder record holding types. My current plans involve integrating the Outcast Champion, Kenku mojo, and a few other sly tricks to push things over the top. Wish me luck!
Lyinginbedmon 11-16-05, 05:05 PM	What? No comments on my hard work for the Core model? :weep:
Iaimeki 11-19-05, 02:01 AM	III. Builds that Power AND Program - Bard 7/Sublime Chord 4/Exemplar 9 I haven't read through the whole thread, merely browsed the introduction, but I don't believe this build is legal: sublime chord and exemplar both have requirements of skill ranks at 13, so can't be taken until after level 10.
LordofProcrastination 11-20-05, 04:00 PM	Lyinginbedmon: Sorry for the late props. A core-only nanotechnology build is a welcome sight indeed. Iaimeki: Your objection is quite correct. I shall delete the improperly constructed build immediately.
Lyinginbedmon 11-22-05, 02:30 AM	Thanks LoP, but I have a slight hitch with my Prying Eyes build: The description of Prying Eyes states nothing about using them to attack, and my DM is saying the same, so can you think of anything that might help? This is my stopping point :weep:
deathwishjoe 11-22-05, 03:43 AM	with all the template stacking crazyness going around it made me start thinking about my previous template stacking experiances with effigies. then it occure to me that by adding paragon to say bats or something then making an effigy they can all make th DC 10 for any skill that can be used untrained and allways get the attack aginst AC 10 as well.
Squirrelloid 12-01-05, 11:12 AM	just in case - this shouldnt be lost :bump:
lostone 12-01-05, 11:21 AM	just in case - this shouldnt be lost :bump:It wasn't going to be, last post before yours was 11/22, well within the 30 day pruning limit.
wolfie-kun 01-01-06, 02:39 AM	to tell the truth, I think the person who came up with this idea is crazy. But it must not go away!!!!
Lokiyn 02-04-06, 01:01 AM	circumstance bonus: A bonus granted because of specific conditional factors favorable to the success of the task at hand. Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses, including other circumstance bonuses, unless they arise from essentially the same benefit. For instance, a magnifying glass gives a +2 circumstance bonus on Appraise checks involving any item that is small or highly detailed, such as a gem. If you had a second tool that also granted a circumstance bonus from improved visual acuity (such as a jeweler’s loupe), the circumstance bonuses wouldn’t stack. Aid Another You can help another character achieve success on his or her skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort. If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you are helping gets a +2 bonus to his or her check, as per the rule for favorable conditions. (You can’t take 10 on a skill check to aid another.) In many cases, a character’s help won’t be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once. The DM limits cooperation as he or she sees fit for the given conditions. For instance, if Krusk has been badly wounded and is dying, Jozan can try a Heal check to keep him from losing more hit points. One other character can help Jozan. If the other character makes a Heal check against DC 10, then Jozan gets a +2 circumstance bonus on the Heal check he makes to help Krusk. The DM rules that two characters couldn’t help Jozan at the same time because a third person would just get in the way. In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results (such as with Disable Device, Search, and Survival), you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone. For instance, a character who doesn’t have the trapfinding class feature can’t use Search to help a rogue find a magic trap, since the helper couldn’t attempt to find the magic trap on his own. You know i had thought that someone would have noticed this a long time ago so i waited.
Tempest Stormwind 02-04-06, 01:25 AM	You know i had thought that someone would have noticed this a long time ago so i waited.Well, I'll be. It looks like you're right. Although the section above it contains merely the term "+2 bonus" (i.e. untyped), it goes on to say "as per the rule for favorable conditions" -- a rule which itself specifies a circumstance bonus. Mind you, I still think it works. Note that the example goes on to demonstrate that more than one character can help -- and thus the +2 comes from different sources, from different people.
RadicalTaoist 02-04-06, 01:25 AM	Ouch. I guess the titles go back to the old fashioned skill records. Bad writing to call it a circumstance bonus later when it was originally left untyped. Still, Nanoaffinity works.:D
Lokiyn 02-04-06, 01:36 AM	Mind you, I still think it works. Note that the example goes on to demonstrate that more than one character can help -- and thus the +2 comes from different sources, from different people. True, however the example text covers that too For instance, a magnifying glass gives a +2 circumstance bonus on Appraise checks involving any item that is small or highly detailed, such as a gem. If you had a second tool that also granted a circumstance bonus from improved visual acuity (such as a jeweler’s loupe), the circumstance bonuses wouldn’t stack. Which means even though its a different person they cant do the same thing and still grant the bonus. After all how many actions (that are not the same) can you preform on the same check?
Tempest Stormwind 02-04-06, 01:38 AM	True, however the example text covers that too Which means even though its a different person they cant do the same thing and still grant the bonus. After all how many actions (that are not the same) can you preform on the same check? In many cases, a character’s help won’t be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once. The DM limits cooperation as he or she sees fit for the given conditions. Therein lies the problem. This was already a limitation on the nanobot builds to begin with; now it defines their very existence.
IThoughtISawA... 02-10-06, 03:45 PM	This amazing thread has been allowed to fall too far from the public eyes. Further, advances in Nano-Tech has come quite a long way since the original records were created. Ultimately, they lead to a similar result, but with a much quicker buildup. Plus, it can be done without Thought Bottle, which is definitely a plus. Classes: Whatever 5/Outcast Champion 4/Exemplar 9 Feats Needed: Wand Surge Twin Spell Extend Spell Persistent Spell Needed materials: Schema of Metamagic Item x3 Staff with Minor Servitor, Shapechange, Unfettered Heroism, Flight, and Giant Size That’s it. How it works: 1. Activate Schema of Metamagic Item (1) targeting Schema of Metamagic Item (2) to apply the Persistent Spell feat. 2. Activate the Schema of Metamagic Item (2) targeting Staff to apply a Twin Spell feat (this lasts 24 hours) 3. Activate the Schema of Metamaic Item (3) targeting Staff to apply the Persistent Spell feat (so that any effects originating from the staff have a 24 hour duration) 4. Activate the Staff’s Unfettered Heroism property (24 hour duration and Twinned). 5. Using Wand Surge and the Action Point granted by Unfettered Heroism, Shapechange to a Choker 6. Regular: Using Wand Surge and the Action Point granted by Unfettered Heroism to activate a Twinned Minor Servitor. Choker: Using Wand Surge and the second Unfettered Heroism Action point, activate another Twinned Minor Servitor. 7-13,000. Repeat step 6. At 1 Round = 6 seconds, 60 seconds = 1 minute (6 rounds = 1 minute), 60 minutes = 1 hour (360 rounds = 1 hour), 24 hours = 1 day (8,640 rounds = 1 day). So, even giving time to rest and redo steps 1-5, we are looking at less than two full days of work at the cost of a charge off our staff (the first Unfettered Heroism). So how do we use this (and what do we get out of it)- 1. Still using Action Points as charges, activate the fly and giant size properties of the Staff to grow to C and float 5’ above the ground. 2. We have a face of 30 and a height of 70. For each 5’ of height (14) we have 28 adjoining squares for a total of 392 squares. Both our top and bottom “face” are 64 squares, for a total of 520 adjoining squares. With 100 fine animated objects in each square, that’s 52,000 objects that will be able to assist us. 3. Use the Shapechange to become a Kenku and lend talent your chosen skill. 4. Order the Nanobots to assist, gaining a +3 (Kenku base instead of the usual +2) +2 (Outcast Champion teamwork bonus) for +5 circumstance per Nanobot. 5. At +5 x 52,000, that’s +260,000 to whatever it is you’re trying to do. Now, this is subject to the stipulation that the bots are 1) actually able to help and 2) can all help. Further, it’s not as grand as “infinite” but its pure 3.5 (IMHO, BoVD is usually questionable), and it can be done without any sort of RaI/RaW conflict (silly drowning rules). Also worth noting that with no Exemplar levels, no Outcast Champion, and no Kenku, and no giant size (ie- just the Nanobots, which you would only need 900 of), you could still net approximately a +900 (aid another dc 10, so half make it at +2 per) to any skill check for a few hours in a couple thousand gold invested. That it all. ~ITISA.
Lokiyn 02-12-06, 03:22 PM	tell you what, List 52,000 individual non duplicate ways to help a flying 60 ft tall half raven make a single skill check and i'd agree... Actually just listing 52 different ways to aid a jump check is a challange in and of itself.
IThoughtISawA... 02-13-06, 11:29 AM	...and that is the problem with the base idea of Nanobots. It has an inherent "reasonableness" clause that potenitally significantly limits its use. I suggest going back to page 1 or 2 and reading the "Flavorfull nanobots" post for suggestions. Regardless, the base premise of nanobots is extremely sound. Using a staff, create 50-100 fine animated odjects. Have those objects share your normal size space and, when in combat, have them aid another your AC or to hit- assuming half of them suceed on the AC 10 to hit, that's still a +50-100 bonus that you didn't have. This can be explained easilly through the 'bots clouding vision, providing resistence, etc (AC), or pushing the weapon faster/harder or correcting aim at the last second (to hit). Heck, even a single 'bot (think familiar or smaller animal companion) is a +2 to many checks a percentage of the time, and one that is rarely used. Like the other major builds, Nanobots is a mathematical and theory excerise. Unlike most, it has an inherent DM-Dependancy clause. ~ITISA.
LordofProcrastination 02-13-06, 11:42 AM	List 52,000 individual non duplicate ways to help a flying 60 ft tall half raven make a single skill check and i'd agree... Okay. Provide lift in the form of individually differentiated supporting vectors across a set of unique surface points. Jump check aided by 52,000+ individual unique efforts towards helping out. Like all optimization exercises, Nanobots function on the essential premise of DM permissiveness. This universe is one of infinite variety and D&D is the manifestation of proto-mechanized imagination. The mechanics work. If you want a flavor-justification, optimizers are not beholden to produce it. That said, the communities has provided just such in the "Flavor (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6613305&postcount=2)" section as a bonus.
Lokiyn 02-13-06, 12:28 PM	Okay. Provide lift in the form of individually differentiated supporting vectors across a set of unique surface points. Jump check aided by 52,000+ individual unique efforts towards helping out.Congratulations you just netted yourself a +2 circumstance bonus circumstance bonus: A bonus granted because of specific conditional factors favorable to the success of the task at hand. Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses, including other circumstance bonuses, unless they arise from essentially the same benefit. For instance, a magnifying glass gives a +2 circumstance bonus on Appraise checks involving any item that is small or highly detailed, such as a gem. If you had a second tool that also granted a circumstance bonus from improved visual acuity (such as a jeweler’s loupe), the circumstance bonuses wouldn’t stack. The problem isn't flavor, the problem i have is mechanical. Mechanically you have to define each individual bonus in such a manner that each source is providing a distince benifit that is not similar to an already existing benifit. Your example provides one bonus and one bonus only, a bonus from increased lift. if you had said you got you bonuses from 1.) increased lift (your '"support"' vectors) 2.) Continuous force (as in small fans or props attached to clothing) 3.) breaking air resistance (an object movin ahead of you to generate draft) Then it would increase to +6 You could not however add 4.) smoothing out clothing and limbs to become more aerodynamic since it is the same benifit as the third benifit Notice the example they gave A magnifying glass and a loupe are two different things, however they both provide the same class of circumstance bonus, increased visual acuity. Unlike all other optimization exercises, Nanobots fails to adress the the problem of same class benefits, which is a flaw regardless of DM permissiveness. Alll i did was wait nearly 7 months to see if anyone would read the rest of sentance, and go see what the "as per the rule for favorable conditions" meant rather than latch on to the first half of the sentance without even noticing that the bonus is clearly not unnammed and is infact a circumstance bonus which has the similar effect limitation.
xerofire 02-13-06, 02:48 PM	Thanks LoP, but I have a slight hitch with my Prying Eyes build: The description of Prying Eyes states nothing about using them to attack, and my DM is saying the same, so can you think of anything that might help? This is my stopping point :weep: Could you somehow use the Mob rules from DMG II?
LordofProcrastination 02-13-06, 02:51 PM	We are having an argument over the interpretation of the phrase "unless they arise from essentially the same benefit." First, to the rules: Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack. Very simple, eh. A clear mandate that Aid Another checks have a specific rule-allowance to stack similar bonuses. "Case closed" would be an oversimplification, but there it stands. Even if the rules didn't provide conclusive resolution, I have included a rebuttal to Lokiyn's argument for anyone who is interested. Lokiyn's interpretation allows for zero use of multiple aid-sources whose help can be semantically grouped as arbitrarily as one prefers. To use the jump example, a semantic extremist could continue using Lokiyn's logic to say "well, no matter what you do, it's capped at a single +2 bonus, since all the benefit is really just the same thing, helping someone jump somehow." This is unsupported in the rules because precedent is established for multiple characters aiding without requiring semantic justification for arbitrary uniqueness of the aid effort within the realm of optimization. If the litmus test is definition of distinctly "not arising from essentially the same benefit," we wander directly into the realm of unlimited linguistic qubbling. "Essentially the same benefit" could be defined by the ideological groupings of any variety of modes of rationalization: newtonian physics, literary tropes, western legal terminology, quantum physics, and so forth. Lokiyn uses a particular school of terminology and groupings in his jump example to produce "classes" of bonuses, but we are left without a legitimization of this set of classifications over any other school. "Increased visual acuity" is likewise a sufficiently ambiguous example as to provide endless interpretation. Is this a rebuke of all cumulative accuracy/potency or a veto to alternating use of enhancements whose output is functionally similar? No amount of linguistic argument on either side would ultimately satisfy the other. The result is a stalemate which forces us to fall back on the optimization premise of a permissive Optimization DM, a DM who would accept an optimizer's theoretical support for an optimization exercise without intervening. I'm glad that the SRD has provided a clear solution to such a fall-back. Also I noticed a little problem with IThoughtISawA...'s combo, perhaps someone can clarify this. Doesn't the Metamagic Item infusion only target charged items? Schema have uses per day, but not charges. Plus, Persistent spell has specific stipulations on what spells/infusions it can work on. Does Metamagic Item and all of Staff spells meet those stipulations? Finally, a Twinned Unfettered Heroism would be unhelpful since, thanks to the multiple-castings-of-same-spell rules, only one casting would be functional, providing only one action point a round.
hogarth 02-13-06, 02:59 PM	We are having an argument over the interpretation of the phrase "unless they arise from essentially the same benefit." First, to the rules: Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack. Very simple, eh. A clear mandate that Aid Another checks have a specific rule-allowance to stack similar bonuses. "Case closed" would be an oversimplification, but there it stands. Note that the quote is specifically referring to the "Aid Another" action in combat.
LordofProcrastination 02-13-06, 03:04 PM	The quote was found in the Aid Another description in the combat chapter, though the statement is functional for both. "Aid Another" is a single action-identity with multiple applications and the quote refers to the aid another action generally, even though the rules are distributed.
RadicalTaoist 02-13-06, 03:05 PM	I still worry not as Nanoaffinity remains untouched. Hell, nanoaffinity might be what saves the original intent. Share the Reach power and the Claws of the Beast power, and you could argue quite well that since a couple thousand of the little buggers can attack your opponent, they can aid your attack or defense.
PraetorianElite 04-11-06, 05:22 AM	A Super Star Destroyer (Executor) costs 1,143,350,000 credits to construct. Now a light mace in SW costs 50 credits and a longsword costs 150. This means credits equal silver pieces (1:10 ratio for credit to gold, 10:1 ration for silver to gold). Lets set the DC at 45. IThoughtISawA’s end check number was +260,000 so if we Take 20 on our craft check we get 260,020x45=1170900 which divided by 1,143,350,000 equals 97.64711, effectively making total construction time roughly 1.9 years. With LordofProcrastination’s +5,742 and a take 20 we get 5,762x45=440.29541 meaning it would take about 8.5 years to construct it. So you can either wait until your level 118 and have the gold to buy this thing, or you can use your nanobots. And while their at it have them build you a funky breathing mask... Conquer the Planes at your discretion.
psly4mne 04-11-06, 03:25 PM	PraetorianElite, don't forget that you can voluntarily raise the craft DC by a multiple of 10 to speed up crafting (link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#craft)). That should bring the creation time down by a factor of 200 or so.
FriendlyBiscuit 04-18-06, 04:36 AM	Wouldn't it be better to do this as a Rogue, using UMD to cast the necessary spells from scrolls? Sure, the scrolls cost money... but you're a Rogue! Which means that you have tons more skills that you can Lend to other people. Why isn't Rogue-and-UMD-based stuff on the list of builds? I'd imagine I'm forgetting something, but it still seems like rogue/exemplar with nanites could be really tasty. Or maybe even Bard, because it has nearly as many skillpoints, and lots of buff spells and buff songs it can use to further boost the nanites & groupmates.
Krashenbern 06-23-06, 02:06 AM	First off/// LoP and all else - amazing insight! I'm in awe. I offer my humble contributions below. Lokiyn- I'm still not sure which way i lean on your point-counterpoint. both sides brought up good elements. i think it boils down to DM discretion... as always. biscuit- once you get to exemplar, you no longer need rogue. maybe use rogue to get there, but exemplar has more class skills than rogue does, and the same number of skill points per level. i like the bard boosting idea, bard to something to Ex on the other hand, rogue give the nanites the ability to help search for traps and disable those traps too... hooray for termite nanites! TerNites? Suggestions- OOh OOh! And for the shape of your nanites, why not fine adamantine fabricated flat (on the dorsal and central sides) spiders with 8 legs. they're sheetlike enough to fly, if necessary, they have bunches of legs for locomotion (not as good a speed as wheels/spheres, but the next step down) The can easily stack on one another with flat backs, (also good for carrying big stuff, like your impromptu wall of stone cubic prison *derail that's another post) and all kinds of good things like these! Who's with me?
Morpha 08-26-06, 02:00 AM	Sorry to resurect a dead thread and all. But I was wondering If Using an effigy master to create an Effigy Hellwasp swarm is a good way of doing thing. It works out pretty cheap. ANd you dont have to worry about dispell magic. according to swarm rules. When a swarm is reduced to zero hitpoints it desperses ...does that mean it isnt destroyed? Does that mean if your 5,000 nanobots in you Effigy hellwasp swarm die in battle a repair crit damage brings themstraight back into the game? If you use permanent Shrink person on them that fixes the size problem. mm.. I THINK i may have found another build for nanobots. :D My congrats to LoP for this awsoe idea.
loneknife 09-07-06, 08:43 PM	found this weapon the other day and i thought of you LOP. if you don't mind being small that is. Warrenguard from Arms and Equipment: <snip> small chars weilding warrenguard underground gain +1 morale bonus to melee attack damage for each ally within 5 feet. </snip> um, you can get a lot of nanobots adjacent to you huh? oh, wait small problem you have to be underground? animate some earth to float above you or use tenser's floating disk and and float some soil above you = underground (under the surface of the ground dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=underground&x=0&y=0)). alternately don't come out of a cave. anyhow thought it was too good to pass up.
Prime361 01-01-07, 11:06 PM	Ok, so its a great idea, but as far as I can see they are still infact 100s and 1000s of individual creatures not a swarm as so many have refered to them. 1. What would happen if you tried to say, create an actual swarm of constructs. I.E. a monster with the construct type and swarm subtype, and if they are fine/diminutive there has to be 10s of 1000s of them and that would make an excessively high CR monster with too many HD to animate and control as per the spell, I ask because I like the idea but want to make sure I go about it the right way. Note: I can think of a monster in MM4 I think that can be made as individual costructs and masses of them can be made into a swarm(pause to find and post appropriate name) clockwork mender. Its a CR 1/2 monster and 1,000 of them is a CR 3, which means I do 22 points to the swarm and I still have to deal with a thousand CR 1/2 monsters? I dont mean to cry, but just to understand a bit how it works. 2.I want to use this idea for the Lvl 10 ability of the Fleshcrafter out of the Dragon Magazine #312 on page 32, which allows for 2 HD/ fleshcrafter lvl of animated objects as per spell. So at lvl 10 I could have a 20 HD swarm with 1000 fine/diminutive animated body parts? Note:it would be nice to have hundreds of eyes and fingers to help me see and feel things. The best I can tell the swarm traits says, "Reducing the swarm to 0 hitpoints or lower causes it to break up,..." it also says, "A swarm rendered unconscious by means of nonlethal damage becomes disorganized and dispersed..." So...if my thousands of 1 hp creatures in the swarm dispers after taking the 100hp of the swarm(+30 hp if swarms of constructs would get the extra hp for large size(yet another question I had)),I would start controlling single creatuers instead of controlling them as a swarm? Let me know because this a strange thing and provokes many a number of other questions. Edit: Also, would disbanning the swarm to make them into smaller elite swarms intended for other actions be plausable? I kinda like the idea of having a horde of nanites, but making them a swarm when not doing anything else would make ordering them around easier, or evenreducing them to like 5ft square swarms with 1/4 the number of nanites, and now that i have read all of it, I like the rogue idea for traps. As an aside, I think they would be termanites, but terNites works too.
Prime361 01-02-07, 01:15 AM	Most long threads end up going round in circles in the end because there is too much material for a newcomer to read. I would suggest giving a short summary, and post links, in the FAQ in the first post to known rules arguments to help avoid this. Lord Kiwi, hehe, I was glad this is only a 6 page thread, I have gotten to the 3rd page so far, lol and still reading/waiting for my question to be answered.
MGray 02-27-07, 05:52 PM	Interesting idea, but I'm not sure you have noticed one flaw with it. The Lend Talent ability that the Exemplar gets is only usable with the 4 skills that an Exemplar has tagged with Skill Artistry. In addition the Animated objects are taking -1 on all Strength based skills, and -5 on all Charisma and Wisdom based skills. It is arguable whether they could even help out with Intelligence or Constitution based skills, I'm not an expert on those areas so I leave that up for other to hash out. Even so, a -5 on Charisma and Wisdom skill checks makes it almost impossible for the Aid Another check to succeed on any Charisma or Wisdom skill not tagged by the Exemplar's Skill Artistry and a +4 for those that are, not exactly 100% odds. The nanites do get a small bonus to Dexterity skills and a small minus to Strength skills making them more likely to succeed if those skills have been tagged with Skill Artistry. So you can have somewhat decent bonuses in 4 specific skills, with sharply diminishing returns on the use of any other skill. At least that's how it looks to me, whaddya think? Mike
Pariah_ex_mortis 02-28-07, 03:48 PM	This is kinda a completly different form I suppose, but I have a Char that is a RedWiz Lich. I have been using the Grim Revenge spell from BoVD or LM(cant remember wich) on well small children. The spell says that the tagets hand rips from the body and attack as a wight but of small size. The DM said that its a childs hand so its tiny. I have about 77 of them under my controll ATM and they have the stats of a wight. So in a small way I guess this works. Cheers
Lyinginbedmon 02-28-07, 07:28 PM	This is a kinda completely different form I suppose, but I have a Char that is a RedWiz Lich. I have been using the Grim Revenge spell from BoVD or LM (Can't remember which) Yes that spell is from Book of Vile Darkness and since the day I first picked up my copy it reminds me of Evil Dead :D
mutevampire 03-15-07, 10:35 PM	I was thinking about it, and one Mordenkainen's Disjunction is enough to make all your little construct friends poof. A shame when you consider the time invested in them (especially a shame when you've used Permanency on them or created a swarm of Boguns) There is, however, a suprisingly simple solution. Your animated helpers can help you do well enough in melee against anyone who can cast Mordenkainen's Disjunction, you can simplify matters a lot (without using up spell slots from very high levels) by using Contingency to cast a Widened Silence spell if anyone within 41 feet of you begins casting MD. Until they gain access to level 13 spells, they can't make their MD's silent. This and the fact the only component for MD is verbal work together to make silence effective. Since you can't target someone else with the contingent silence spell, you need to make it's base-line 20' AoE centered on yourself equal or better the MD's 40' AoE centered on its caster. That's why you use Widen Spell. Doubling the 20' AoE on silence makes you immune to Mord's Disjunction (unless there's a mechanic from an obscure rulebook i don't know about) The funny thing is I don't even intend to use this, i just thought of the horrible construct massacre and had to think of a way to save the poor buggers 8^P
Zenogias 04-11-07, 01:36 AM	Not sure if this was mentioned before, but is it possible a Warlock could take the Dark Speech feat + Summon Swarm invocation and use them in a similar fashion to Nanomachines?
awaken_D_M_golem 04-15-07, 03:17 PM	Oh yeah. Here's a post for you ---> link
kitsuneymg 05-02-07, 01:55 AM	Sorry again for bumping dieing thread. in response to: "Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack." I direct you to the 2nd word of that quote "CHARACTERS". If the players are gonna be rules-lawyers, I can do it just as well. I hardly count 'animated objects' as characters.
Lyinginbedmon 05-02-07, 02:27 AM	You wouldn't count them as player characters no, but they are non-player characters. Just because Archmage Stonewater got polymorphed into a rabbit, it doesn't mean he can't still use spells and aid his fellows
The_Mad_Linguist 05-02-07, 10:04 AM	Sorry again for bumping dieing thread. in response to: "Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack." I direct you to the 2nd word of that quote "CHARACTERS". If the players are gonna be rules-lawyers, I can do it just as well. I hardly count 'animated objects' as characters. The phrase 'animated objects' contains 16 characters.
nijineko 05-03-07, 04:58 PM	what about the awaken construct spell? would take quite some time what with the number of minions being talked about. hmmm, and might also negate the auto-obey bit too. if it would work, one wonders about mass awakening spells. might not be as nice, but what about mindthrall? should work for programming, ^^ and would even work on ahhh... otherwise intelligent minions.
Lyinginbedmon 05-03-07, 05:26 PM	We should remember that the rules were largely written with the player characters in mind
nijineko 05-03-07, 05:49 PM	just saw this over in the betrayer thread, thought it might apply here. Something I've thinking about recently, in regards to fighting in a antimagic field. One of the questions in the DnD FAQ reads: Further, it is stated in the SRD under intelligent items that:It has occured to me that intelligent weapons possess both a wisdom and a charisma score, rendering them immune to the effects of MDJ. Further, as they are a creature and not a magical item, just as golems and other constructs continue to function in an antimagic field, would not an intelligent weapon, amor, or other item continue to function under such circumstances? This seems ridulously good to me; for the tiny cost of +2,000 gold (a base +1,000 gp for the lowest intelligent item and then an additional +1,000 for its lesser ability of bless 3/day) or a feat invested in Item Familiar, you can keep a given item - and all of its powers! - active even in an antimagic field. Thoughts, comments, applications to build fighting the Betrayer or other antimagic specialists? :D i suppose that one could make a lot of tiny, fine, or diminuitive intelligent weapons out of adamantine, give them all the animate object ability, or far hand or some other method of self-mobility, and that would give you durability, loyalty and attack potential. (minimum one point of damage, right? plus bonuses mentioned other places in this thread. ^^) nano-bots, ho!
Prime361 09-13-07, 12:34 PM	Someone pointed out that Animate object doesn't specifically allow the use of animated objects for anything other than attacking, has this been covered? I love the idea and would hate for it to be shot down because one little unmentioned rule.
ZexionAlmasy 01-23-08, 10:42 AM	I have a small question... can they in turn form their number be able to guard each other when attacked raising their AC and your AC at the same time?
The_Mad_Linguist 01-23-08, 06:14 PM	Someone pointed out that Animate object doesn't specifically allow the use of animated objects for anything other than attacking, has this been covered? I love the idea and would hate for it to be shot down because one little unmentioned rule. I think it's been covered. From the animated object description: "they follow orders without question and to the best of their abilities"
ZexionAlmasy 01-24-08, 11:40 AM	I have a small question, I noticed there was a fine swarm of Fey on MM III. What would happen if I made them into a Effigy and then built them with the artificial intelligence shown in Dragon Mag? Would they count as a swarm, but from being effigy automatically link with me for the hive mind effects but are so small that they could count as individuals each using aid another?
Brainpiercing 02-06-08, 06:10 PM	Got to necro this for some necromancy: For a very easy realistically applicable campaign use of the Nanobots, which should even be allowed by most DMs: Awakened Skeletal Hellwasp Swarms: They are intelligent. They have a hive-mind (ex), skills, and can even animate dead bodies into zombie like things. They gain feats by awakening, but remain under your control. Now, you can Greater Planar Bind the swarms, kill them, and animate basically endless amounts into skeletons under your control. (For free, if you're spellstitched.) They will have insane Dex after animation as skellies, +bonuses from necromancy feats, which should help with the Aid Another on many checks. Since they are under your command you should be able to stop them from attacking each other, if you start stacking (even mindless) swarms into the same squares. You'll have to find a way to deal with being nauseated - such as being undead. And finally, you can awaken all of them in one go for a measly 250XP. Now they will get back all their racial Ex-abilities, including the hive-mind, inhabit, etc. AND multiple swarms can even work together, as per the description of the Inhabit ability. What you have now is the ability to stack an unnamed number of intelligent hive-minded swarms into the same squares, which have feats, skills, and are, by their description, capable of doing fairly complicated maneuvers - together. Stacking just a few into your square will grant very respectable, but by no means campaign breaking bonuses. You DM will most likely allow this, since he already allowed you to become a necromancer. You won't be breaking any records, but with minimal investment (a few castings of animate dead and 250XP) you can get a big gain.
NiteCyper 02-09-08, 07:45 PM	[DELETE]
Pezz 02-20-08, 06:53 AM	Question, Do you need Artificer 11 in the "create and power" build? or would Human(or Changeling) Rogue 1/Artificer 10/Exemplar 9 work to make a skill monkey who would be more effective than a straight 20 Rogue? EDIT: Nevermind, after checking in on the Aid Another skill description of the PHB you wouldn't be able to use the nanites to help finding a magical trap. disabling, maybe. non-magical traps, definitely, but by that level non-magical traps would not be a problem.
Magres 03-03-08, 04:30 PM	Eh... Hi. I was reading the Complete Adventurer book and found something that, while it doesn't BREAK nanobots, I think it severely limits them. Lend Talent requires that you have Skill Artistry in the skill that you're lending, and you can only get Skill Artistry 4 times, so you can't get crazy bonuses to ANY skill, only the 4 you take Skill Artistry in, and you're stuck with those four. (Page 45-46 in Complete Adventurer) At least, that's how I read things. I really hope I'm wrong, nanobots are BADASS. Anyone got ideas for a work around?
Callix 03-04-08, 11:46 PM	Eh... Hi. I was reading the Complete Adventurer book and found something that, while it doesn't BREAK nanobots, I think it severely limits them. Lend Talent requires that you have Skill Artistry in the skill that you're lending, and you can only get Skill Artistry 4 times, so you can't get crazy bonuses to ANY skill, only the 4 you take Skill Artistry in, and you're stuck with those four. (Page 45-46 in Complete Adventurer) At least, that's how I read things. I really hope I'm wrong, nanobots are BADASS. Anyone got ideas for a work around? No need for a workaround: any one build can only trick out 4 skills, but they can be any 4 skills of your choice. Nanobots, like Pun-Pun, is more an idea than a build; the record for (Insert Skill Here) belongs to a Nanobot-enhanced build.
Prime361 03-08-08, 02:31 PM	So I love this idea, and I would like to see if there has been any new material that has put out that could help it. The last update to the OP was in 2005, so what books have been put out since then that I can look over to update the idea? If there is somewhere I can look at a list of when books were published that would allow me to check myself. Thanks ahead of time guys. The Prime Suspect
carnivore 08-11-08, 04:14 PM	saving classics :P