Using PaO for ECL15 to CR81 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Using PaO for ECL15 to CR81 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TSEDTIKS
09-07-07, 01:16 AM Ok, so I lurk here a lot. I've had this idea and it's just so bloody SIMPLE that I'm surprised my (admittedly very quick) search couldn't find any one else using it. I've got the basis of it down, but I need a little help refining the details.

The basis of the trick is this: using Polymorph Any Object's rather vague wording to become a Great Wyrm Force or Prismatic Dragon. Permanently. At level 15.

This can be done with a cleric with the trickery domain, a sorcerer, or a wizard. I am using a wizard in my choices because part of PaO's +2's involves intelligence.

Kobold Wizard, 25 point buy.
Str: 8 -4 (racial) + 3 (3) = 7
Dex: 8 + 2 (racial) + 2 (2) = 12
Con: 8 + 4 (4) = 12
Int: 8 + 10 (16) = 18
Wis: 8 = 8
Cha: 8 = 8

Obviously, more points can be used as needed. The strength is to actually carry your spellbook around, the dex is for that lovely AC bonus, and con to help keep you from becoming kobold flavoured mush. The int is the main basis and should be as high as possible at any time.

Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) is the big important one. The rest are the obvious followers (spellcraft, concentration, personal preferance).

Feats: Don't really matter. Skill Focus (Know: Arcana) is probably a good choice at some point, due to wanting that skill as high as possible.

Using the wealth by level (the following, as I see them) :
Assuming you cannot spend more than half your wealth by level on a single item, the 'best' book you can buy at level 15 is +3.
Headband of Intellect +6: 36,000gp
Combine with dumping all level ups into intelligence and you should get intelligence 30. As an additional bonus, you've only spent 118,500 of your 200,000 wealth by level.

Now, the real trick:
Upon gaining level 15 and Polymorph Any Object.
You are now a kobold (animal, class: reptile) with an intelligence of presumably 30.

A Great Wyrm of any chromatic or any metallic that is not gold is an animal, reptile with an intelligence of 30 (silver) or lower (everything else). Gold dragons could be done if you could find another 2 points of intelligence, but I don't see where to get that.

That means you have duration factor 9, which means you are now permanently a great wyrm. The specific examples in the chart denote that casting the spell can grant more hit dice [shrew to manticore], unlike Polymorph (though it does not explicitly state this).

Now, suddenly being a great wyrm with 15 levels of wizard is plenty broken as is, but there's more to it:

Epic Dragons.

Using the same kingdom (animal), class (reptile), and size (colossal) you can become an ancient force or prismatic dragon - permanently.

If you can argue the admittedly tentative 'like' clause, that is, great wyrm is to great wyrm, you can become an ancient force / prismatic dragon.

The problem with this second step is that you need a rather large knowledge (arcana) check to know about these epic dragons. This is the part I need help with. Assuming the DC is 10 + HD, you need to beat DC85. With skill focus, intelligence, and maxed know (arcana) I have a grand total of... +31. Skills aren't my strong suit, so I turn to you chop monkeys :)

Also, do you see any flaws I've stumbled upon in little trick?

I would prefer to do this entirely with core, but I'll understand if splats make it even easier.
andinel
09-07-07, 02:28 AM I think the HD is going to be a problem. In the first line of the spell it says it functions like a normal polymorph with the only listed exceptions throughout the whole spell text being the duration and the Int score change. RAW, I believe that the spell caps at 15 HD with no HP change, so your trick doesn't seem to work.

Good try though!

Edit: A lot of the DCs for lore about various monsters seem to start at 10 + CR, from what I've seen, but I could be wrong.
cog_n_taz
09-07-07, 03:36 AM Alternatively, here's the catch-all PaO trick - PaO yourself into something legal, or use shapechange, if PaO won't allow it. Then, cast PaO to transform yourself into exactly the same thing except for a minor change, like, say, eye colour. Since you changed to the exact same thing for PaO purposes, it is now permanent, enjoy!
TSEDTIKS
09-07-07, 02:37 PM I think the HD is going to be a problem. In the first line of the spell it says it functions like a normal polymorph with the only listed exceptions throughout the whole spell text being the duration and the Int score change. RAW, I believe that the spell caps at 15 HD with no HP change, so your trick doesn't seem to work.

Good try though!

Edit: A lot of the DCs for lore about various monsters seem to start at 10 + CR, from what I've seen, but I could be wrong.

The thing is, shrews have a lot less HD than manticores. /shrug.

If you took it 'like polymorph' then that would be impossible, because 'caster level or target's HD, whichever is lower.' Meaning that the shrew couldn't be changed into anything with HD > 1.

I'll admit, this is the tentative part (and the part where the DM would lay the fiat down).
deathwishjoe
09-07-07, 04:05 PM The thing is, shrews have a lot less HD than manticores. /shrug.

If you took it 'like polymorph' then that would be impossible, because 'caster level or target's HD, whichever is lower.' Meaning that the shrew couldn't be changed into anything with HD > 1.

I'll admit, this is the tentative part (and the part where the DM would lay the fiat down).

in the faq it states that the limitation of only being able to change into something of equal HD as you have is removed as we can see from the shrew to manticore example. however the FAQ states that the portion of the polymorph description that puts a cap on the highest HD forms you can change into (only changing into a max of 15 HD creatures) is still in effect. So forms with higher then 15 HD are not things you can change into with PaO according to the FAQ.

Now there are a multitude of things you can change into within those limitations and they are very powerful for the very reasons you suggest. I had a interesting build that had PaO cast on it and all 5 levels of warshaper so it could change its shape contously through out the perminant duration of the PaO spell. you can use PaO to qualify for racial requirements for PrC like the beholder mage and illithid savant. and you can make low level characters rediculusly powerful with this spell by spending your money on it. my favorite forms include astral deva honred devil and beholder (with assume supernatural ability: eye rays)
TSEDTIKS
09-07-07, 05:57 PM in the faq it states that the limitation of only being able to change into something of equal HD as you have is removed as we can see from the shrew to manticore example. however the FAQ states that the portion of the polymorph description that puts a cap on the highest HD forms you can change into (only changing into a max of 15 HD creatures) is still in effect. So forms with higher then 15 HD are not things you can change into with PaO according to the FAQ.

Now there are a multitude of things you can change into within those limitations and they are very powerful for the very reasons you suggest. I had a interesting build that had PaO cast on it and all 5 levels of warshaper so it could change its shape contously through out the perminant duration of the PaO spell. you can use PaO to qualify for racial requirements for PrC like the beholder mage and illithid savant. and you can make low level characters rediculusly powerful with this spell by spending your money on it. my favorite forms include astral deva honred devil and beholder (with assume supernatural ability: eye rays)

Ahh, that stops it fair and square, thanks.

On the other hand, you can still be a non-red/gold/silver juvenile dragon permanently, which is still pretty broken.
PhaedrusXY
09-07-07, 07:02 PM Ahh, that stops it fair and square, thanks.

On the other hand, you can still be a non-red/gold/silver juvenile dragon permanently, which is still pretty broken.Not as broken as a beholder mage PC. :P
deathwishjoe
09-07-07, 10:57 PM On the other hand, you can still be a non-red/gold/silver juvenile dragon permanently, which is still pretty broken.

yes however the best all around form I've seen for this purpose is horned devil or astral deva if your worried about how your character looks.
Green_eyes
09-13-07, 07:07 AM Hm... A scroll of PaO is 3000gp. You can cast Polymorph at lvl 7. Polymorph then PaO with scroll. Doable? The DC for the scroll is what? DC 16. You must roll 9+ to cast... What are your ideas? Is it of any real use for a mid-lvl campaign? And what forms would you recommend? HD 7 or lower with decent EX's.
PhaedrusXY
09-13-07, 12:30 PM Annis Hag is a good 7th level form from the MM1. However, read what Deathwishjoe said about the FAQ. You're not limited with forms with equal or lower hit dice to your own. You're only limited to forms with 15 hit dice or less, regardless of your own level.
Green_eyes
09-13-07, 03:44 PM Ok... Thanks. Am I right, that an Aasimar using PaO to turn into Astral Deva gets the permanency effect?
PhaedrusXY
09-13-07, 04:38 PM I would think so, but definitely run it by your DM. This is cheese extraordinaire. :D
awaken_D_M_golem
09-13-07, 07:29 PM :confused:

... deathwishjoe ... You're not limited with forms with equal or lower hit dice to your own. You're only limited to forms with 15 hit dice or less, regardless of your own level.

Be a 1st level Wizard.
Find a high level Wizard.
Like your master.
Succeed a Charm Person.
Succeed a Hypnotism.
"Hey, PAO me into an X."
Fanatic: "Why, sure! Anything else?"

Wow.
Better than an Elemental Envoy. ;)
Green_eyes
09-14-07, 03:37 AM Did Pun-Pun get stronger?

Nah... But I definitely need to sneak this trick under the radar of my DM.
Callix
09-14-07, 08:40 PM Pun-Pun was already automatically in the form of his choice, with all abilities ever published, and all stats infinite. Pun-Pun does not become stronger. We simply realise that he is stronger. With his infinite knowledge checks, he already knows how to be infinitely powerful, and is. This gives a mere mortal a chance at overwhelming power. It gives nothing to Pun-Pun.
CrimsonDeath
09-15-07, 02:47 AM With his infinite knowledge checks, he already knows how to be infinitely powerful, and is.
Technically, he has arbitrarily high knowledge checks and is arbitrarily powerful. (Unless he happens to be engaging in Omnificer shenanigans at the moment. Not that he ever shouldn't be, since he has Masochism and Delay Death at will as spell-like abilities, plus Die Hard as a bonus feat.)
Callix
09-15-07, 03:36 AM Technically, he has arbitrarily high knowledge checks and is arbitrarily powerful. (Unless he happens to be engaging in Omnificer shenanigans at the moment. Not that he ever shouldn't be, since he has Masochism and Delay Death at will as spell-like abilities, plus Die Hard as a bonus feat.)

But that's the whole point of the Pun-Pun challenge: Find a way to kill Pun-Pun. All the challengers run into a stumbling block: Once the creator shows it is possible, Pun-Pun does it an arbitrary number of times as an immediate action. And he's immune to surprise. Ever since the Omniscificer was created, Pun-Pun has had truly infinite checks to all abilities. I'm sure someone found a way to make a stat truly infinite, allowing their character to engage Pun-Pun... until he realised that Pun-Pun now had all his stats infinite. Behold the wonder that is Pun-Pun!
progresslevel9
09-29-07, 09:57 AM @ Callix: that, apparently, is exactly the sort of thing that the timeless trait of the Far Realm is good for. Y'know, besides going snakeshit bonkers.

@ OP; like surreal said, you should look into Beholder Mage abuse.
10 free action spells a round, cast spontaneously from a spellbook? Balls.

PrC is in Lords of Madness...details on how a PaO'd something-or-other can qualify are in LoP's Dirty Tricktm, Behold! (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=540563)

Have fun, and annihilate responsibly.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TSEDTIKS 09-07-07, 01:16 AM	Ok, so I lurk here a lot. I've had this idea and it's just so bloody SIMPLE that I'm surprised my (admittedly very quick) search couldn't find any one else using it. I've got the basis of it down, but I need a little help refining the details. The basis of the trick is this: using Polymorph Any Object's rather vague wording to become a Great Wyrm Force or Prismatic Dragon. Permanently. At level 15. This can be done with a cleric with the trickery domain, a sorcerer, or a wizard. I am using a wizard in my choices because part of PaO's +2's involves intelligence. Kobold Wizard, 25 point buy. Str: 8 -4 (racial) + 3 (3) = 7 Dex: 8 + 2 (racial) + 2 (2) = 12 Con: 8 + 4 (4) = 12 Int: 8 + 10 (16) = 18 Wis: 8 = 8 Cha: 8 = 8 Obviously, more points can be used as needed. The strength is to actually carry your spellbook around, the dex is for that lovely AC bonus, and con to help keep you from becoming kobold flavoured mush. The int is the main basis and should be as high as possible at any time. Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) is the big important one. The rest are the obvious followers (spellcraft, concentration, personal preferance). Feats: Don't really matter. Skill Focus (Know: Arcana) is probably a good choice at some point, due to wanting that skill as high as possible. Using the wealth by level (the following, as I see them) : Assuming you cannot spend more than half your wealth by level on a single item, the 'best' book you can buy at level 15 is +3. Headband of Intellect +6: 36,000gp Combine with dumping all level ups into intelligence and you should get intelligence 30. As an additional bonus, you've only spent 118,500 of your 200,000 wealth by level. Now, the real trick: Upon gaining level 15 and Polymorph Any Object. You are now a kobold (animal, class: reptile) with an intelligence of presumably 30. A Great Wyrm of any chromatic or any metallic that is not gold is an animal, reptile with an intelligence of 30 (silver) or lower (everything else). Gold dragons could be done if you could find another 2 points of intelligence, but I don't see where to get that. That means you have duration factor 9, which means you are now permanently a great wyrm. The specific examples in the chart denote that casting the spell can grant more hit dice [shrew to manticore], unlike Polymorph (though it does not explicitly state this). Now, suddenly being a great wyrm with 15 levels of wizard is plenty broken as is, but there's more to it: Epic Dragons. Using the same kingdom (animal), class (reptile), and size (colossal) you can become an ancient force or prismatic dragon - permanently. If you can argue the admittedly tentative 'like' clause, that is, great wyrm is to great wyrm, you can become an ancient force / prismatic dragon. The problem with this second step is that you need a rather large knowledge (arcana) check to know about these epic dragons. This is the part I need help with. Assuming the DC is 10 + HD, you need to beat DC85. With skill focus, intelligence, and maxed know (arcana) I have a grand total of... +31. Skills aren't my strong suit, so I turn to you chop monkeys :) Also, do you see any flaws I've stumbled upon in little trick? I would prefer to do this entirely with core, but I'll understand if splats make it even easier.
andinel 09-07-07, 02:28 AM	I think the HD is going to be a problem. In the first line of the spell it says it functions like a normal polymorph with the only listed exceptions throughout the whole spell text being the duration and the Int score change. RAW, I believe that the spell caps at 15 HD with no HP change, so your trick doesn't seem to work. Good try though! Edit: A lot of the DCs for lore about various monsters seem to start at 10 + CR, from what I've seen, but I could be wrong.
cog_n_taz 09-07-07, 03:36 AM	Alternatively, here's the catch-all PaO trick - PaO yourself into something legal, or use shapechange, if PaO won't allow it. Then, cast PaO to transform yourself into exactly the same thing except for a minor change, like, say, eye colour. Since you changed to the exact same thing for PaO purposes, it is now permanent, enjoy!
TSEDTIKS 09-07-07, 02:37 PM	I think the HD is going to be a problem. In the first line of the spell it says it functions like a normal polymorph with the only listed exceptions throughout the whole spell text being the duration and the Int score change. RAW, I believe that the spell caps at 15 HD with no HP change, so your trick doesn't seem to work. Good try though! Edit: A lot of the DCs for lore about various monsters seem to start at 10 + CR, from what I've seen, but I could be wrong. The thing is, shrews have a lot less HD than manticores. /shrug. If you took it 'like polymorph' then that would be impossible, because 'caster level or target's HD, whichever is lower.' Meaning that the shrew couldn't be changed into anything with HD > 1. I'll admit, this is the tentative part (and the part where the DM would lay the fiat down).
deathwishjoe 09-07-07, 04:05 PM	The thing is, shrews have a lot less HD than manticores. /shrug. If you took it 'like polymorph' then that would be impossible, because 'caster level or target's HD, whichever is lower.' Meaning that the shrew couldn't be changed into anything with HD > 1. I'll admit, this is the tentative part (and the part where the DM would lay the fiat down). in the faq it states that the limitation of only being able to change into something of equal HD as you have is removed as we can see from the shrew to manticore example. however the FAQ states that the portion of the polymorph description that puts a cap on the highest HD forms you can change into (only changing into a max of 15 HD creatures) is still in effect. So forms with higher then 15 HD are not things you can change into with PaO according to the FAQ. Now there are a multitude of things you can change into within those limitations and they are very powerful for the very reasons you suggest. I had a interesting build that had PaO cast on it and all 5 levels of warshaper so it could change its shape contously through out the perminant duration of the PaO spell. you can use PaO to qualify for racial requirements for PrC like the beholder mage and illithid savant. and you can make low level characters rediculusly powerful with this spell by spending your money on it. my favorite forms include astral deva honred devil and beholder (with assume supernatural ability: eye rays)
TSEDTIKS 09-07-07, 05:57 PM	in the faq it states that the limitation of only being able to change into something of equal HD as you have is removed as we can see from the shrew to manticore example. however the FAQ states that the portion of the polymorph description that puts a cap on the highest HD forms you can change into (only changing into a max of 15 HD creatures) is still in effect. So forms with higher then 15 HD are not things you can change into with PaO according to the FAQ. Now there are a multitude of things you can change into within those limitations and they are very powerful for the very reasons you suggest. I had a interesting build that had PaO cast on it and all 5 levels of warshaper so it could change its shape contously through out the perminant duration of the PaO spell. you can use PaO to qualify for racial requirements for PrC like the beholder mage and illithid savant. and you can make low level characters rediculusly powerful with this spell by spending your money on it. my favorite forms include astral deva honred devil and beholder (with assume supernatural ability: eye rays) Ahh, that stops it fair and square, thanks. On the other hand, you can still be a non-red/gold/silver juvenile dragon permanently, which is still pretty broken.
PhaedrusXY 09-07-07, 07:02 PM	Ahh, that stops it fair and square, thanks. On the other hand, you can still be a non-red/gold/silver juvenile dragon permanently, which is still pretty broken.Not as broken as a beholder mage PC. :P
deathwishjoe 09-07-07, 10:57 PM	On the other hand, you can still be a non-red/gold/silver juvenile dragon permanently, which is still pretty broken. yes however the best all around form I've seen for this purpose is horned devil or astral deva if your worried about how your character looks.
Green_eyes 09-13-07, 07:07 AM	Hm... A scroll of PaO is 3000gp. You can cast Polymorph at lvl 7. Polymorph then PaO with scroll. Doable? The DC for the scroll is what? DC 16. You must roll 9+ to cast... What are your ideas? Is it of any real use for a mid-lvl campaign? And what forms would you recommend? HD 7 or lower with decent EX's.
PhaedrusXY 09-13-07, 12:30 PM	Annis Hag is a good 7th level form from the MM1. However, read what Deathwishjoe said about the FAQ. You're not limited with forms with equal or lower hit dice to your own. You're only limited to forms with 15 hit dice or less, regardless of your own level.
Green_eyes 09-13-07, 03:44 PM	Ok... Thanks. Am I right, that an Aasimar using PaO to turn into Astral Deva gets the permanency effect?
PhaedrusXY 09-13-07, 04:38 PM	I would think so, but definitely run it by your DM. This is cheese extraordinaire. :D
awaken_D_M_golem 09-13-07, 07:29 PM	:confused: ... deathwishjoe ... You're not limited with forms with equal or lower hit dice to your own. You're only limited to forms with 15 hit dice or less, regardless of your own level. Be a 1st level Wizard. Find a high level Wizard. Like your master. Succeed a Charm Person. Succeed a Hypnotism. "Hey, PAO me into an X." Fanatic: "Why, sure! Anything else?" Wow. Better than an Elemental Envoy. ;)
Green_eyes 09-14-07, 03:37 AM	Did Pun-Pun get stronger? Nah... But I definitely need to sneak this trick under the radar of my DM.
Callix 09-14-07, 08:40 PM	Pun-Pun was already automatically in the form of his choice, with all abilities ever published, and all stats infinite. Pun-Pun does not become stronger. We simply realise that he is stronger. With his infinite knowledge checks, he already knows how to be infinitely powerful, and is. This gives a mere mortal a chance at overwhelming power. It gives nothing to Pun-Pun.
CrimsonDeath 09-15-07, 02:47 AM	With his infinite knowledge checks, he already knows how to be infinitely powerful, and is. Technically, he has arbitrarily high knowledge checks and is arbitrarily powerful. (Unless he happens to be engaging in Omnificer shenanigans at the moment. Not that he ever shouldn't be, since he has Masochism and Delay Death at will as spell-like abilities, plus Die Hard as a bonus feat.)
Callix 09-15-07, 03:36 AM	Technically, he has arbitrarily high knowledge checks and is arbitrarily powerful. (Unless he happens to be engaging in Omnificer shenanigans at the moment. Not that he ever shouldn't be, since he has Masochism and Delay Death at will as spell-like abilities, plus Die Hard as a bonus feat.) But that's the whole point of the Pun-Pun challenge: Find a way to kill Pun-Pun. All the challengers run into a stumbling block: Once the creator shows it is possible, Pun-Pun does it an arbitrary number of times as an immediate action. And he's immune to surprise. Ever since the Omniscificer was created, Pun-Pun has had truly infinite checks to all abilities. I'm sure someone found a way to make a stat truly infinite, allowing their character to engage Pun-Pun... until he realised that Pun-Pun now had all his stats infinite. Behold the wonder that is Pun-Pun!
progresslevel9 09-29-07, 09:57 AM	@ Callix: that, apparently, is exactly the sort of thing that the timeless trait of the Far Realm is good for. Y'know, besides going snakeshit bonkers. @ OP; like surreal said, you should look into Beholder Mage abuse. 10 free action spells a round, cast spontaneously from a spellbook? Balls. PrC is in Lords of Madness...details on how a PaO'd something-or-other can qualify are in LoP's Dirty Tricktm, Behold! (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=540563) Have fun, and annihilate responsibly.