Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mato_hibiki 11-01-06, 12:03 PM	I don't know why, but there's something about storming the beaches at Normandy... Is it just me? Am I the only one who feels nostalgic everytime I see a beach with a cliff? .... Is anyone interested in statting out the battle of Normandy? Besides me, I mean. I could go on about lists of available equipment and such, but I think I'll await a reply before I start to gush. - "We will fight them in the air, on the land... Eyore and Tigger!" Robin Williams on Winston Churchill and his speech writer, who worked for the BBC, and on Winnie the Pooh.
Alpha_Moose 11-01-06, 08:00 PM	It was the biggest war of all time. It's also one of the only wars that most everyone sees as completely justified. I mean, think of the amount of movies where Nazis are completley evil sociopaths who killed puppies. And as for stating Normandy, which beach? I'd go with Omaha.
Ranger REG 11-02-06, 03:23 AM	I don't know why, but there's something about storming the beaches at Normandy... Is it just me? Am I the only one who feels nostalgic everytime I see a beach with a cliff? .... Is anyone interested in statting out the battle of Normandy? Besides me, I mean. I could go on about lists of available equipment and such, but I think I'll await a reply before I start to gush. - "We will fight them in the air, on the land... Eyore and Tigger!" Robin Williams on Winston Churchill and his speech writer, who worked for the BBC, and on Winnie the Pooh. Meh. I'm on the other side of the world and are more interested in the Battles of Midway and Iwo Jima.
Lissa 11-06-06, 01:12 PM	WWII was fought to stop a madman ruling Germany from conquering Europe and to prevent Japan from taking over large parts of Asia and the Pacific Ocean. The battles involved planning(good and bad), lucky breaks, bad breaks and reserve forces showing up (sometimes) to turn the tide of battle. This is how the United States of America came to be regarded as a super power, well that and the atomic bomb.
mato_hibiki 11-06-06, 11:26 PM	Omaha beach sounds good to me... The layout requires that I dig through historical texts for the demensions, and number of fortifications... Yay. Question, are there any weapons from that era that have already been, well, done up for the lack of a better term? I know the M1911 is in the D20 modern handbook, but I didn't see the garand... Landing craft stats, available materials and equipment, terrain hazards, ugh... Help? - "How do I use this grenade?" "Pull the pin and throw it!" "It's a STICK grenade!"
Lissa 11-07-06, 08:49 PM	Terrain Hazards include water, sand, going uphill and sniper boxes. Hamster
Khurgan 11-08-06, 02:42 PM	Personally, I'd prefer going in by glider and taking 'Pegasus Bridge' - Imagine that - airborne commandos storming across the bloody thing firing sten guns from the hip at a sleepy, startled jerry - it's just not British but it damn well worked...! What is British is that the lads then shared Champagne with the French owner of the Pegasus Bridge cafe shortly before digging in to repulse Wehrmacht counterattacks. Brilliant!
mato_hibiki 11-08-06, 03:28 PM	Wonderful. Ok, let's see what a little research gets me... At low tide, Omaha beach was six hundred feet deep, and most of the fortifications laid by the Germans were largely ineffective, due to the lack of water hiding them. Due to the conditions at the time, and the constant battle going on, clouds of smoke and fog obscured much of the open space leading to the cliffs. Nearly all the ranking troops were wiped out early on, leaving the remaining men virtually leaderless. Not to mention that the soldiers were tired, seasick, and soaked to the bone. Also, some pilots of the landing craft didn't want to risk getting shot up, and dumped the landing ramps early, leaving the soldiers disembarking to flounder through the sea in an effort to reach the beach. Scary. So, where does that leave us? Well, given that most of the players will want to survive this battle, it's best to make them all privates and/or corporals... Hope I spelled that right... Also, I don't think we want them swimming to the beach... Luckily, some of the Coxswains driving the landing craft risked life and limb to make sure their men set foot on the beach. So, we can deliver the players right to the sand... Unless you want to make them dump their gear, or risk drowning. Also, depending on the realism factor, you may or may not want to make them fatigued. This makes the beach landing go one of two ways. Way one, movie style. Your players come out of the landing craft like a horse out of the gate for the Kentucky Derby. Six hundred feet of beach won't take very long. Infact, it will take them five rounds of running at top speed to get there. This is, of course, assuming they aren't carrying more than a light load, and don't have the run feat, YMMV. Way two, the way we were. Your players are tired, soaked, and throwing up from the churning waves. Fatigued, they can't do much more than trudge in a straight line towards the cliffs. This means they'll be making a single move action a turn, and it'll take them two MINUTES to reach semi-safety. Again, depending on how realistic you want it to be, you can have them make saves to avoid being fatigued, or worse, exhausted, YMMV. Just keep in mind, if they're exhausted, they'll take twice as long as a fatigued character to get there... Forty rounds of walking at half speed is not my idea of a good time, considering... Either way, the players will have to avoid overlapping fields of machine gun fire, with little to no available cover. Once they get to the base of the cliff, they then have to made the long, difficult climb up to the top. Sadly, in D20 terms, this tough climb is handled by taking a ten. The cliff is about a hundred feet. That comes out to... Ugh, just use the accelerated climbing rules, it's easier on all of us. Seven rounds to get to the top, or just four fast climbing it. This brings us to Pointe du Hoc. (We'll just pretend it isn't four miles west of Omaha beach. If your players don't know any better, then why not?) So, now comes the trenches, barbed wire, tall metal gates, landmines, and the concrete pillbox bunkers. I'll leave some of this to you guys, since individual group flavor is... Well, y'know. So, either you play it fast and loose, or you draw up a simple map on a spare sheet of paper. I'd suggest having the players deal with no fewer than three bunkers though. Probably, enh, five Germans manning it? Two working the mounted gun, one doing spotting, one officer, and the last man guarding the door. Trenches. These will be either a headache, or a boon, depending on how the players interact with them. German troops will be manning them, and they'll have to be cleared out. On the other hand, crouching, or going prone in a trench will give partial to total cover from enemy fire coming from OUTSIDE. It's no help to someone sharing the trench with you, naturally. Minefields... Please, please, clearly mark them with little red danger signs. Otherwise, both sides of the battle will have troops being blasted to bits by these. Gates. Tall metal gates. I wasn't kidding about these things. Six foot high metal fences aren't much trouble to a teenager in running shoes, but to a WWII private loaded down with gear, it's all but insurmountable. And nobody wants to climb while being shot at. Disable device, if the players have it, otherwise it's time to break out the sunder or strength checks. Barbed wire, is easy though. Just string it along to prevent your players from bypassing any of the above landmarks. Phew... Ok, so, I think I've typed enough for now. If anyone feels the need to correct, add, or edit any of this, then go right ahead. I'm far from being an expert on the source material, and I've been wrong before. Besides, it'll be better if we all work together, right? - Still waiting on information about the Garand.
Alpha_Moose 11-08-06, 06:28 PM	Wait, we aren't using magic?:D Honestly, if we did, I can imagine a whole bunch more crap that can be added to the defenses. The M1 Garand is a pretty awesome rifle. It is powerful, and decently accurate. I'd stat them at 2d10 with 60ft or so range. That's a complete guess just by looking at the other guns in Modern. It might be in d20 Past, but I don't have it.
mato_hibiki 11-09-06, 12:29 PM	No, no magic... Because then half the invading force would have access to magic missile... I did a little research on the garand, and since I don't know squat about d20 past, I'm gonna take a shot at it. M1 Garand Damage 2d10 Critical 20 Type Ballistic Range 100 ROF Semi Magazine 8 Size Large Weight 10 lbs Purchase DC N/A The Garand was the weapon of choice for most American infantry during WWII, mostly thanks to it being one of the first semi-automatic rifles introduced. Chambered in the powerful .30 round designed in 1906, and possessing a capacity of eight rounds, it's impact on the war was obvious. There. Blah. The reason for the 100 foot increment, well, I did a little research, like I said. It's maximum effective range is actually 1800 feet, but you won't get that without far shot, and a scope. Luckily, there were a few, strike that, a LOT of variations of the garand. Several of them allow mounting of a scope, actually, no less than three add a scope. And, in a war campaign, I doubt there's need for a purchase DC. Ok, so, building on what I did last time, let's handle the run through the vinyard on Pointe du Hoc. Once clear of the Pointe, the 2nd Ranger Battalion will have to storm a vinyard to make it to the coastal road. The vinyard itself it pretty beat up, several of it's buildings have entire walls knocked down, and furniture is strewn about, providing decent cover for both sides of the battle. The layout actually forms a sort of double yard, one in the front as the troops enter, and one in the middle, once clear of the first building. There is a mounted gun in the main building after the second yard, set on the second floor behind a pile of sandbags. Once finished with the troops occupying the buildings, no less then eight, but probably no more than twenty, depending on the state of the party, it's time to move on to the actual vinyard itself. The vinyard has a few low walls running across it's length, and two openings for access to the coastal road, one only big enough for troops to walk through, the other big enough for a halftrack. Again, the number of opposing troops is up to you, but remember, there's about three walls between your players and the road, so both sides will have decent cover until they get to the road. It is possible for some of the Rangers to hand back in the last building just before the vinyard, and lay down some sniper fire from the two windows overlooking the vinyard itself. Once they've fought their way clear to the road, all that's left it to find the coastal guns, the true purpose of this attack. A few turns spent running up the road will reveal the stolen french guns, all set to fire on Utah beach. To disable the guns, a thermite plasma grenade must be planted on the main control wheel, a DC 15 demolitions check will guarantee it's destruction. Alternately, you can just have the players either make a DC 10 int check, or just have them slap it down, the realism level is up to you. From here, it's just a matter of setting up some barricades, and waiting for the inevitiable german counter attack... For the next two days. Hmm, good enough for now, I guess. Next up, the following two days, and the final stand on Pointe du Hoc. - At the end of two days of fighting atop Pointe du Hoc, the american fighting force was reduced from two hundred twenty five men, down to a mere ninety. But those ninety men held the Pointe.
Ryltar Thamior 11-12-06, 06:16 PM	Wow! Inspiring stuff! Keep it coming!
Kelvic 11-16-06, 10:17 PM	Well in those two days the Allies were hit with heavy resistance from german troops, snipers, half tracks, and a tank or two if i remember right. so that means that the troops are going to need bazookas and captured weaponry. the most acurat repensintation of the good old M1 would be the M14 out of the weapons locker i think it has about the same stats as you posted. If you want you could run the campagn throught he eyes of the paratroopers that were droped behind enemy lines to cut the german retreat and supply lines to the beaches i tghink that was Omaha or sword i cant remember but ya whatever. Also dont forget about the germain air support that was preasent during the beach runs ya know the ones bombing the hell out of the boats on there way in.
Prak, the Mad 11-29-06, 04:16 PM	Wait, we aren't using magic?:D Honestly, if we did, I can imagine a whole bunch more crap that can be added to the defenses. Drow nazis? ..christ... I just relaized a drow nazi would look... imposing, weird, f**king scary... ugh... just... your body would completely bypass the Fight-or-Flight stage and just go into flight... I mean, seriously, pitch black skin, in a pitch black uniform with only a spot or two of red and one circle of white, accenting the bone white hair... christ... that'd be some frightening sh*t... course, to counter that... Gnome allied forces with high tech and magic... now that'd be scary... but only to the gnome's human allies... will-it-won't-it-blow-up-and-kill-us-all.... storming Wall of Force bunkers on the beaches... casters tossing fireballs outta the aircrafts... mage dogfights... that alone would be awesome to watch...
Alpha_Moose 11-29-06, 07:08 PM	Drow nazis? (other stuff taken out) Must... be... drow nazi.... in next... game. Have... white Hitler mustache. So evil...
Prak, the Mad 11-29-06, 10:09 PM	Must... be... drow nazi.... in next... game. Have... white Hitler mustache. So evil... unfortunately drow have no facial or body hair...
Alpha_Moose 11-29-06, 10:57 PM	unfortunately drow have no facial or body hair... It's painted on.
the_snake 11-30-06, 05:18 PM	I have the D20 past:D . M1 Garand Dam.2D10 Crit.20 Ran. 80Ft Mag.8 box purchease DC:17 ______________________ "What's the matter? You just had a coupla legs blown off that's all. COME GET ME!!" ALUCARD
Alpha_Moose 11-30-06, 07:30 PM	I have the D20 past:D . M1 Garand Dam.2D10 Crit.20 Ran. 80Ft Mag.8 box purchease DC:17 Hey, we were pretty close. Now I need my drow nazi to buy one.
the_snake 11-30-06, 07:51 PM	I got nazi weapons. Karabiner 98K Dam:2d10 crit:20 Ran:80ft Mag:5box Pur DC:16 Sturmgewehr 44 Dam:2D10 Ran:80ft Crit:20 Mag:20box Pur DC:16 automatic MP40 Dam:2D6 Ran:30ft crit:20 Mag:40box Pur DC:18 automatic MG34 Dam:2D8 ran:100ft crit:20 mag: 5o linked pur DC:21 automatic ___________________________ "What's the matter? You just had a coupla legs blown off that's all. COME GET ME!!" ALUCARD
Drohem 12-02-06, 05:53 PM	I recommend using the D20 Modern rules. The D20 Past book would be very helpful. It has the statistics for some of the aircraft and weapons of that era. There were so many epic battles on land, sea and in the air during the period of 39-45 that is almost impossible for a Gemmi like me to choose one, lol! However, if I was going to coduct a game in the European Theatre from an American point of view, then I would also start with D-Day. Some other cool senarios would be: Battle of Britain, Battle of Stalingrad, North African Campaign, Pacific Islands Campaign, Blitzkreig into Poland, etc. It's like I said, there were so many dramatic conflicts during that period, it's hard to choose. As far as statistics for weapons, there are several D20 military supplements out from various publishers that have enormous lists of historical weapons and their statistics. However, in reviewing some of these books it is clear that most weapons statisitics are basicly the same. Just the name of the weapon changes. So, instead of investing large sums of money on various supplements for weapon statisitics, I would recommend using whatever available books and information you have to create our own historical weapons list and statistics.
Johannixx 12-05-06, 11:04 PM	I got nazi weapons. Karabiner 98K Dam:2d10 crit:20 Ran:80ft Mag:5box Pur DC:16 The Karabiner 98k was clip-fed, not magazine fed. You had to open the bolt, insert a five-round charger or stripper clip, push the rounds into the internal magazine, then close the bolt. You could also load it with single rounds (and had to, in the case of most of the scoped sniper variants). It thus has a magazine capacity of 5 Int, not 5 Box. I would allow stripper clips to be used to load the weapon as a move-equivalent action, though. I'd also bump the range up to 90', to keep it in line with other full-power service rifles. Sturmgewehr 44 Dam:2D10 Ran:80ft Crit:20 Mag:20box Pur DC:16 automatic Where shall I start? The StG-44 (also known as the MP-43 or MP-44) and its prototype variant, the MKb-42, fired an intermediate-power cartridge. This wasn't quite as powerful or as long-ranged as the standard 7.92x57mm sS cartridge, but was more powerful than the 9x19mm Parabellum pistol cartridge used in the MP-38/40 series submachineguns. This was the Grand Compromise, and unlike most compromises, it actually worked. Thus, the StG-44 should have a damage code of 2d8, with a 70' range increment. It had crappy sights, a relatively low-velocity cartridge, and was not made with pinpoint accuracy in mind. The Germans experimented with affixing telescopic sights to the weapon, but decided it wasn't inherently accurate enough to take on sniping duties. Also, it used a 30-round box magazine, not a 20-round box. Some 10-round box magazines were developed and used for function testing during development, but were not fielded in combat. MP40 Dam:2D6 Ran:30ft crit:20 Mag:40box Pur DC:18 automatic Where are you getting your magazine capacity info, if I might ask? The MP-40 used a 32-round box magazine, but was often downloaded to 30 rounds for more reliable feeding. MG34 Dam:2D8 ran:100ft crit:20 mag: 5o linked pur DC:21 automatic The MG-34 used the same full-power 7.92x57mm sS cartridge as the Kar98k rifle. It is definitely in the 2d10 range. Also, the weapon was capable of feeding via 50-round belt (often coiled in a belt drum attached to the side of the weapon), which could be linked together for sustained fire. It could also be used with the 75-round saddle drum magazine of the MG-15 by changing out the receiver top cover, but the drum was not very reliable, and was generally only used early in the war, for anti-aircraft applications where the belt tended towards twisting at high angles of fire. Come to think of it, why do you have purchase DCs here, anyway? The German soldier didn't purchase his weapon, he was issued it (with exceptions for officers and their pistols, in some cases). Purchase DC shouldn't be in the picture.
Alpha_Moose 12-06-06, 08:39 PM	At ^, all of those stats were from d20 Past, and we know how accurate damage is stated in Wizards products.;)
the_snake 12-06-06, 09:38 PM	Johannixx BE CUSE I F@#$ CAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!:censored: :hoppingma
mato_hibiki 12-06-06, 11:34 PM	Wow. No need to fly off of the handle there the_snake. I don't see what the problem is, Johannixx makes a good point, there is no need for purchase DCs. I for one, welcome our new ovr- whoops! Wrong speech. :embarrass I'm glad that people with actual knowledge of the topic in question bring their game to to field, as the saying goes. It makes it that much easier for me to work stuff out, when I can get help from a decent source. Boy, it's been awhile since I last posted in here, eh? Has anyone actually used any of this stuff, or am I just accumulating shiny pretties to look at? Either is good, I guess.
Johannixx 12-07-06, 01:43 AM	Heck, he at least spelled my name right. That's better than most of my detractors. And what else can I say? If you're going to post on a public forum about things that people can prove or disprove via research, you'd best be right or expect someone to chime in with a correction. Also, regarding purchase DCs, you could use them to represent how common the weapon was in general issue, i.e. how likely any given soldier would be to have one in his possession, how hard it is to requisition one for a given mission, or how hard it is to scavenge one of a dead enemy soldier. Or, you could just be rude. Oh well.
Gelthanas 12-07-06, 12:51 PM	It was the biggest war of all time. It's also one of the only wars that most everyone sees as completely justified. I mean, think of the amount of movies where Nazis are completley evil sociopaths who killed puppies. And as for stating Normandy, which beach? I'd go with Omaha. It was not the largest battle of all time. The largest battle of all time and through History was the entire Civil War. More Soldiers were lost in the Civil War then World War 2 and Vietnam together. However, It was the largest organized and largest amphibious battle in History. :D
Nadaka 12-07-06, 02:39 PM	It was not the largest battle of all time. The largest battle of all time and through History was the entire Civil War. More Soldiers were lost in the Civil War then World War 2 and Vietnam together. However, It was the largest organized and largest amphibious battle in History. :D More american soldiers... Not more soldiers in general. WW1 and WW2 far outstrip the death tolls. As a matter of fact, aproximately the same number of soldiers died in combat in the battles of Somme and Verdun (seperately, combined the casualties would aproximately double the death toll of the american civil war) as died in combat in the entire american civil war. Lets see, battles bigger than the American Civil war? Somme Verdun Kursk Stalingrad almost makes the list... There are quite a few actually.
chegeta 01-01-07, 09:34 AM	well as a person who owns or has shot most of these guns i can point out some of the flaws and some helpful hints AND there is a lot of d20 WW II books like hell on earth & world war II heros are good examples, how ever some of their info is flawd and lacking in some reserch with the weapons and makes it one sided and silly. the M1 grand ya 2d10 how ever loading it from the to causes problems, if your not careful the bolt will snap off your finger to even the most trained of solders in heat of battle so maybe u should make some %fail with it. the k98 model k is over 400 yards with no scop, with scop over 800 yards, but you can slider the sight for 1,000 yards but not effective shooting. the 7.92x57 or 8mm mauser is a very large caliber, not maney pass it. the 30-06 7.62x57 is smaller and lighter so it has more range but the 8mm can penatrate thicker things because it was made to go threw you and the person behind you when 30-06 6 expands and has less of a chanse of hitting the person behind him. how ever attach a WW I k98a 20 round trench mag (the world first bolt action assult rifle) i mean thats what i did.. how ever the k98k is rather heavey and so is the 7.92x57 so 20 rounds is really really heavy after a while. pluse there was a flaw in them and that is why they are very rare, i had to make a few adjestments to mine, cause the bottom plate keept on falling off. the STG 44 the world first assult rifle shoots a 7.92x33 kruz round thats used a metal case instead of brass (due to german ran out of brass) held 30 rounds, a 40 round mag was very very rare, how ever it was very accruate lil kick and the 8mm size bullet could do a bit of damage. the MP40.. i have no idea were u got 40 rounds.. it held 32 but hand loding it 28, it is easyer pulling out your teeth with your bare hands then loading 32 by hand.. how ever! there was a mp40 mk. v. II that held 2 mags for 64 compacaty to compeat with the russian ppsh because the mp40 was more advanced but the ppsh held 71 bullets. the mg34 had a 50 round drum and or 100 round drum or linked fed shoots 650-800 rounds per min :) one of my faves to shoot. how ever like the luger it hates dirt so it jams when dirty like the luger. but by normady they have been replaced by the more robust and faster shooting hitlers buzzsaw MG 42 that has a very interasting auto eject for the barrel for when it warps due to high fire rate and the 34's were outfitted for anti-air guns due to super good range and always hitting were u aim. and whats up with people underminging the luger? every rpg book i read with the luger they make it suck. it is impossibule to shoot low grain bullets out of it because of how it works u must use high volocty rounds so it is not weak.. and its shape makes it super accruate i have never missed with my luger. and pluse it can also shoot 30 cal luger as well 9mm replaced it because 9mm has more kenitic weight. how ever never drop em or they jam, you can also make em full auto which is why some of them came with a rifel stock attachment u can put on. and dont forget the tompsen, the greese, the 1903a3 and a4. and one thing that silly why do u think the civil war had more deathes then any other war put togeather.. the final victory for germany in WW I allies lost over a cupple hundread thousand men in the first half week and that was considerd a small amount compared to other battles. then WW II stalengrad was the bloodest battle in WW II and the battle of krusks was the largest tank battle in history. and when the russians were marching towards berlin from late 44-early 45 they lost over 400,000 men alone and that was considerd very very small compared to other battles in the war. lol someone need to look in a world history book and not a US history book when it comes to world wars
Johannixx 01-01-07, 10:42 PM	Please show me a 50- or 100-round drum magazine that fit the MG-34. I would love to see one; I'll even add it to my book. To the best of my knowledge, the MG-34 fed by belt (with or without the 50-round belt holder), or 75-round saddle drum. And yes, I really love the MG-42's barrel-swap system. It's fast, and easy, provided you're wearing asbestos gloves. Just slap the release, and bam, presto-changeo!
chegeta 01-08-07, 11:49 PM	well the most common is 50-200 chain linked belt and or 50 round drum. uncommens like the dubble stack p38 mag that held 16 or more rounds, the 20 round 98 mag, and MP 40 MK. II that held 64 rounds are all eather very rare and hard to find info on or just did not make the sucessfull listings because they eather failed or were so uncommon it just did not make a important enough marking in history. i found out about the mp 40 mk. II in a book called guns of the rich and it was the only time i saw it listed ever. during the war germans were out numberd and out armed so they needed to equip men with as much as they could be eather uping the compacity or makeing something compleatly new. they made thousands of things that most people do not know about. i am how ever wrong on the amount that the mg 34 duble mag held it holds 75 not 100. but as a GM it is up to you to consider such oddities or not because you do not want to make a game too complicated right away or you will confuse people. start off with basics and then if it gets big enough then add in other oddities such as the STG 45, the MG 45, k98 rocket rounds (yes they did test out rocket bullets) k98 caseless rounds, and other stuff the germans wasted lots of time on that was eather unsucessful, or did work but costed way to much to make and was deemed unsucessful, allies stealing it, and or the war ended before they could bring it out to fight. even the US had some wepons like the M1 Johnson, and a few other. you must always keep in mind that in times of war strange and stupied things pop out in the time of need. most people do not know that the 1903 springfield could have a 10 round attachment, i just bought one for mine, and that the 1903A3 used in US service from 42-43 had a panel that could turn off the mag so it wont pick up the next bullet because officers belived that soldiers would waste ammo.. it is a fun trick to play on my friends when i remove the tab. another fact about the 1917 enfield that was even used in WW II held 6 to 7 rounds but it was only recorded to hold 5 because strip clips only hold 5 rounds. well if you need any info or want some advice just e-mail me at chegeta@yahoo.com i own a few but i have shot most WW II guns. i must say my fave is the K 98, the M1, and the k98 12ga (dont belive me i will send u pictuer of it and or look up geha)
Johannixx 01-10-07, 09:52 PM	I've never seen nor heard of a double-stack P-38 project. That would be truly interesting, especially if some of them happened to get down to Italy. It would explain the origins of the Beretta 92 even more clearly. I have seen photos in a few books of the MP-40/II, and while it's a neat concept, I think the PPSh-41 was a better weapon overall. The Krauts made a lot of neat attempts at improving weaponry, but they suffered from the classic "Best is the enemy of Good" syndrome. They needed a basic, cheap, easy to produce automatic weapon and a lot more ammo production capacity. Oh, and troops, raw materials, logistics, strategy, etc etc ad nauseum.
chegeta 01-17-07, 03:06 AM	if you look at the techno point of the ppsh and the mp40 the mp40 was more advance and is able to do more if you wanted it to because it was the first to use a simple concept that all SMG's use today, and the mp40 is easyer to aim and control..the easyer way to prove it more modern guns copied its designed then the ppsh... like the model 98 the 1903 springfield is a 30-06 version of it and even today we still copy the model 98 in 90% of US made bolt actions because it is overall better. and stratagy goes proven fact if adolf would listen to his officers they would have won because they were for the most part better. russian tactic of charge charge and more charge made more of them die then germans.. even when they were pushing back the germans. the russians just outnumberd them and was getting supplies from the US. when you have 6,000 men and 2,000,000 men are charging at you, good chances they will swarm you like locuse, you may kill 60% of them but they will in the end swarm you.. thats not stratagy that is just simple math of numbers and knowing your homeland better. the dubble stack mag for the P38 is very rare and very unpractical unless you have autoed your P38 which is still pointless because you can pull the trigger just as fast because after the first shot the weight of a grain of sand would set off the trigger...just for pointers if you love your wrist do not auto it unless your expecting it cause if it surprizes you it will hurt...a lot cause it kicks left and not right like all right handed guns do...but the dubble stack mag is out there just something u have to look for really really hard... now here is a oddity for US wepons a WW II rpg should have. the US army did not trust soldiers with ammo so there is ways to screw u on ammo, the 1903 has a shut off key so the bolt wont pick up the next bullet, so it is a single shot until a lot of germans come, then your co will put the key in for you (i do not think it was praticed), the army thompson will not take drum mags because it is a closed box port so 20 and 30 round stick mags only. the M1 you would only get 7 clips+1 in the rifle, the greese came with a 9mm spare barrel so when u ran out of ammo you could use the german ammo because your CO wont give u any more because they feel you will waste it. so you can make the US army screw over players with ammo because thats what they did.. not trust you lol. oh and if u put the G41 in a rpg give it a very high crit fail because it used the crappy "bang" action which wore out and faild 50% of the time which is why they left the bolt handel on it.
Ral of Tyr 02-11-07, 02:45 AM	Alternate history campaigns are the best. What if the NAZI's won in Russia? What if Japan was able to invade the US? How would WW2 be if the Confederates won the civil war and were able to break away from the Union? Etc. Etc.
chegeta 02-12-07, 08:08 PM	well if you actualy know history the south was their own country for 5 years before the civil war happend so your "what if the south succeeded from the union?" is lil off cause they sorta did and i can tell u what happend they lost a war. now with the russia area if they beat russia we would have never been able to stop them because they would have had another 11 cores in normady and some more cores in africa, and operathion sea lion would have taken place with german jet bombers and rockets. any ways this thread is for helpful info on makeing a rpg not what if's and talking about the civil war is not helping WW II talk. i think 1 of the biggest problems with WW II RPG's is tank info and stats. few of the books i have read for WW II RPG's the make the basic shermen the super tank and give it more power and armor then a king tiger..... any one who knows any thing about tanks knows that is just silly shermens had problems takeing out a panzer 4's let alone a king tiger... i think some one should make proper stats for tanks cause i mean come on it is sickaning to see what people put down for tanks in RPG books, now i am not saying that shermen cant take out a king tiger, it is much faster and able to ambush easyer then a king tiger but it should have a hard time doing so because it shot a low caliber 75mm and lightly armord when the king tiger had a 88mm (a rare proto type had a 150mm) cannon that was able to penatrate a super heavy tank from 1000 yards away and it was greatly armord. who ever make a sherman more super then a king tiger should be shot..some one please make inteligent stats for tanks and other mechinized objects and publish it.
RoninZero141 02-27-07, 06:38 PM	Just to let everyone know, RPGObjects is releasing a WWII RPG based on their Blood & Guts d20 game. First two books are already out as PDF's. You can buy them at RPGNow.com &/or DriveThru.Com.
Johannixx 03-04-07, 09:47 PM	Oh great, Charles Rice did the weapons of WWII book. I bet the PPSh-41 deals 2d8 damage and punches through tank armor... :rolleyes:
RoninZero141 03-04-07, 10:52 PM	Not knowing, off the top of my head, what that weapon is... Why should these be (not be) the stats of this weapon?
chegeta 03-05-07, 04:55 AM	because it is not possibule for it to happen, allow me to explain it in simple terms for thoes who read this and has no idea why, the PPSH-41 was the USSR answer to the MP40, due to the fact it held 71 bullets made it win the war cause of more fire power. now listen closely it shoots a 7.62x25...if you have an IQ of 2 then ya say it goes threw tanks, take a 9mm and shoot at a 2 or 3 inch thick peice of solid metal, that is the same effect a 7.62x25 will have on a tank. u will just ruin the paint job. it is super great for takeing out groups of people and is super fun to shoot, how ever the drum mag jams a bit, if u drop it there is a good chance it will fire, and is a pain in the arse to reload... 2d8 for damage i can see, depending on the type of game, but 2d6 or 3d4 because u r shooting pistol bullets seems more real.
TFVanguard 03-05-07, 10:30 AM	If you're actually trying to model WWII somewhat realistically, I wouldn't rely on d20 Past at all, largley due to damage issues, but also because the 'feel' is completely different. There's a number of products on RPGNow.com that do it better, honestly. d20 Past is much more based on the 'adventure-pulp' version of WWII, more like the 'funny pages' (when 'funny' meant WEIRD) or 'Soldiers of Adventure' magazines of the period than the way combats really played out.
RoninZero141 03-05-07, 06:21 PM	Stats from Small Arms of World WAr II, by Charles Rice. PPSh-41 SMG (7.62x 25 mm) 2d6 20 Ballistic 30ft. S, A 35 box, 71 drum Large 8lb. 16 Res (+2). I'm still not sure I understand why you would think he'd give this weapon tank-killing ability?
TFVanguard 03-06-07, 03:26 PM	Stock d20 armors, if I remember right, are painfully light. A machine gun, with a good ROF, can (and often will) wipe out a tank in one round, due to d20's very light DR ratings and low hit points for vehicles.
RoninZero141 03-07-07, 02:12 AM	So, you're saying the problem is the d20 rules?
TFVanguard 03-07-07, 09:04 AM	Not so much the mechanical aspect of the rules, but the very low stats given to weapons and equipment of the modern era. (A more extreme example of this can be found with d20 Future and the mecha rules).
Johannixx 03-08-07, 08:34 PM	Stats from Small Arms of World WAr II, by Charles Rice. PPSh-41 SMG (7.62x 25 mm) 2d6 20 Ballistic 30ft. S, A 35 box, 71 drum Large 8lb. 16 Res (+2). I'm still not sure I understand why you would think he'd give this weapon tank-killing ability? Because Charles Rice gave the 5.7mm FN cartridge 2d8 damage in the Ultramodern Firearms book (which was basically reprinted as d20 Weapons Locker), which is far more than it deserves. He also made the 12 gauge 1-3/4" slug deal less damage than this piddly little cartridge that has only slightly better ballistics than a .22WMR. He seems to have a fetish for low-mass, high-velocity pistol bullets, and the 7.62x25mm Tokarev cartridge was the 1930s/1940s pistol cartridge that best represents that type.
RoninZero141 03-09-07, 09:36 PM	First two questions... 1) Does the 5.7mm FN cartridge (in Ultramodern Firearms/d20 Weapons Locker) have a "tank-killing" ability? 2) What do you feel the Stats for this round should be (considering it was designed as an anti-body armour round)?
Johannixx 03-12-07, 12:13 AM	First two questions... 1) Does the 5.7mm FN cartridge (in Ultramodern Firearms/d20 Weapons Locker) have a "tank-killing" ability? 2) What do you feel the Stats for this round should be (considering it was designed as an anti-body armour round)? 1) No, but it does do more damage than a 12-gauge shotgun slug, which is silly enough. My point is that the author has a fetish for light/fast pistol bullets, and overstats them. Thus, I expected a similar treatment in this product. 2) I think treating it as an armor-piercing 9x19mm NATO round works fine. 2d6-1 damage, +1 to hit armored targets. If I were statting it out, I'd throw away that stupid -1/+1 mechanic and do it thusly: The projectile deals 2d6-1 damage, and ignores AC bonuses from light armor and concealable vests. You could even go so far as to ignore AC bonuses from all light and medium armors, if you wanted to. However, I would also allow ALL rifle cartridges to do the same thing. There's a reason people wear ballistic plates over Kevlar: rifles go through Kevlar like a hot knife through butter. So, rather than making the P90 a superior front-line assault weapon compared to the M4 Carbine (as Ryan did in UMF), it would instead be put in its rightful place as a personal defense weapon for rear-echelon troops, which was its original design purpose.
chegeta 03-12-07, 09:39 AM	why is this up for topic? as i can say Mr. rice is mentaly retarded and has never seen a gun in his life, he probably played a video game were the best wepon was a pistol cartridge wepon. if u want to have a unrealistac WW II game then make the ppsh-41 armor pericing, but i can tell you for a fact armor percing bullets back then were not that effective nore common, i have solid steel 7.62x54r bullets for my mosien-naggant and it can go threw about 3 or 4 inches max if you hit it right and that was pretty much it all they had for armor percing, russians made anti-tank gernades that weighed a ton that people threw. same with germany, they had a high impact 4,00ftps bullet that could go threw a shermen if u hit it right, they did try armor percing 9mm but it was a faild attempt same with the rocket bullets for the k98k, so they made 25 lbs minds and better tanks to take out tanks, oh ya and the 35mm hand cannon...but i pictuer people breaking bones when shooting that thing, but u gotta do what u gotta do. the ppsh-41 is a great and wonderful gun but armor percing is stupied and silly unless your shooting at a tank made from WW II that only had less then a inch of armor... if any one dissagrees with me i will let u barrow my ppsh-41 and have someone drive stright at u with a tank at full speed, trust me it will not work, 7.62x25 kicks like a 22
RoninZero141 03-12-07, 09:53 PM	1) No, but it does do more damage than a 12-gauge shotgun slug, which is silly enough. My point is that the author has a fetish for light/fast pistol bullets, and overstats them. Thus, I expected a similar treatment in this product. 2) I think treating it as an armor-piercing 9x19mm NATO round works fine. 2d6-1 damage, +1 to hit armored targets. If I were statting it out, I'd throw away that stupid -1/+1 mechanic and do it thusly: The projectile deals 2d6-1 damage, and ignores AC bonuses from light armor and concealable vests. You could even go so far as to ignore AC bonuses from all light and medium armors, if you wanted to. However, I would also allow ALL rifle cartridges to do the same thing. There's a reason people wear ballistic plates over Kevlar: rifles go through Kevlar like a hot knife through butter. So, rather than making the P90 a superior front-line assault weapon compared to the M4 Carbine (as Ryan did in UMF), it would instead be put in its rightful place as a personal defense weapon for rear-echelon troops, which was its original design purpose. I have only one question... Do you think you are actually quallified to judge the ability of bullets to deliver kinetic force to a target? I'm not saying you're wrong, but if you're not an expert... what gives you any greater right than Mr. Rice to say what stats are right or wrong?
Johannixx 03-12-07, 11:38 PM	I have only one question... Do you think you are actually quallified to judge the ability of bullets to deliver kinetic force to a target? Yes, I do believe myself to be qualified to judge the ability of bullets to deliver kinetic force to a target. I have been a hunter and a shooter my entire life, and I have seen firsthand what bullets do to flesh and bone. Believe me, there is a world of difference between a 40-grain .22 and a 1-oz. 12-gauge slug when it comes to destroying living tissue. Shot for shot, there is pretty much no more destructive shoulder-fired antipersonnel weapon in the world than the 12-bore combat shotgun. If memory serves, one of the d20 Modern designers was a tanker in the first Gulf war. As such, he is imminently more qualified than me when it comes to statting out armored vehicles. But I will wager I have more time behind the triggers of small arms than any of the Modern designers, and seen the results of high-velocity lead hitting living tissue. Thus, I generally don't critique vehicular cannon or anti-tank weaponry, but I freely and vocally critique poor small arms statistics.
RoninZero141 03-13-07, 07:40 PM	Have you considered contacting the d20 designers about this particular round and your belief that it's stats are wrong? Do you feel that any other rounds are inaccurate?
Johannixx 03-13-07, 09:54 PM	Have you considered contacting the d20 designers about this particular round and your belief that it's stats are wrong? Do you feel that any other rounds are inaccurate? When Weapons Locker first hit the shelves, I made a fairly mild critique about it in a thread. One of the designers popped into the thread and asked for a list of errors. I gave him a subset of the list I posted earlier in this thread (I had not yet compiled the whole list at that point), and I never heard from him again. Couple that with some Bullet Points articles attempting to justify their decisions on statting out various weapon systems, and you almost have to come to the conclusion that my words were falling on deaf ears. So, I have ceased beating a dead horse on that front, and helped by giving concrete alternatives via the forums to any who wish to use them. Out of curiosity, why all the interest?
TFVanguard 03-14-07, 12:03 AM	Does seem like WOTC is super-defensive over their choices (some of which really poor) for d20 Modern. Sadly, I think it's well rooted now within the WOTC tower, and won't be changed or altered or anything, no matter what the audience points out.
chegeta 03-14-07, 01:17 AM	mr ronin have u ever shot any of these guns? a 12 ga. slug will kick your arse when u shoot it, if your really lucky it will feel like u cracked a rib if u hold it wrong. a good rule of thumb for older guns is the harder it kicks the more damage it does to the target. pistol size ammo can do lots of damage but has more of a limit then rifel ammo. now adays they make armor percing submachine gun rounds but this is a WW II talk bord and back then they did not. on the russian front the germans had panthers, panzer IV's, tigers, and king tigers; now a 75mm shermen cannon had a hard time punching threw a panzer IV and it is the smallest of the 4 i just listed.
RoninZero141 03-15-07, 08:31 PM	Out of curiosity, why all the interest? About what you think is wrong you mean? Just curious really.
Fgarber 03-21-07, 03:35 PM	It's painted on. "Hitler" could be a svirfnelbin, maybe? After all, Adolf wasn't exactly his "Aryan" ideal body type! :) Just the idea of Goebbels as a Beholder, too, is kind of funny. Beholders speaking in German accents is hilarious in my head. -Fred WARNING: THIS IS AN ATTEMPT AT D&D HUMOR AT NAZI EXPENSE: Any attempt to seriously deal with racial analoguing between Real Life Germany and WOTC's fantasy races is too pretentious for me.
chegeta 03-26-07, 03:50 AM	hehehe funny? hummm i think that joke could have been worked on by a lot. it does not even seem to be a joke it is soo bad. i would pictuer orcs being more like nazi then beholders. but any ways the joke was very bad.
ScS 03-27-07, 10:30 AM	I'd say that if any of the nazis were a beholder, it would be Goering. They'd have to get him into a plane with a shoehorn.
arget8 04-01-07, 05:39 PM	does anyone have more stuff?
RoninZero141 04-01-07, 08:12 PM	Well, I've always wondered what it would be like if Hitler's planed invasion of England went ahead. With the UK in his control, there'd be no way for the US to invade Europe. Plus he'd probably take out Russia with minimal fuss and there'd be no one to stop him getting the A-bomb!
chegeta 04-02-07, 04:26 AM	apperantly WW II history was not your top grade, before the war started german scientest discoverd how to make the nuclear bomb, they did all the reaserch and every thing. the reasion why they never tried to build one was because they decided it was going to be important for futer generathions not current cause they figuerd the war was going to be a fast win or a fast lose. sealion would have proved their fast win theory. threw out the whole war they could have built one at any time, and after they found out that raid on the heavy water did not stop the production at all in that documentry called hitlers secreat wepon, they just never thought it was important until 1944 when they built a testing sight but they did it half arsed and never finished it. so really no one did stop them from building a atomic bomb, they stoped them selvs so even if sealion happend and was a sucess the a bomb thing still would have been up in the air; i dont think they would have built it.
ScS 04-02-07, 11:27 AM	Perhaps the Nazis weren't interested in the Bomb, but the Japenese were. Recent evidence shows that the Japanese built and detonated their own atomic bomb before their surrender. Its really a near thing that they did not develop their own bombs sooner. Given their "creative" means of waging war, they might very well have been able to land a bomb on US soil - or perhaps more importantly, on a carrier group.
RoninZero141 04-02-07, 08:23 PM	I'm sorry chegeta, but I got a little distracted by your "remark" about the extent of my historical eduaction! Are you saying that the Nazi's weren't capable of ever building the bomb, or that they just weren't interested?
Johannixx 04-03-07, 10:15 AM	As far as I've been able to discern, the Germans toyed with the idea, but thought it would take too much time to bring to fruition, and abandoned it (especially after the Norwegians and Brits destroyed the heavy water plant in occupied Norway).
TFVanguard 04-03-07, 03:09 PM	Actually, they invested a lot of time and money into the A-Bomb, but the Germans had gone down a long road of research with heavy water that proved ultimately fruitless - at least in the time available to them.
RoninZero141 04-03-07, 08:30 PM	Okay, but... Clearly Hitler wanted the "bomb". And if he had won the war, he would've completed the project.
chegeta 04-10-07, 03:11 AM	hummm it seems there was a misunderstanding with my message, i never said they never wanted it, they just thought the war was going to be over in 2 or 3 years they figuerd they would not have the time to use one in that war so they figuerd it would be saved for futer generathions, then by 1944 they relized the war was lasting a lot longer then they thought and tried to build a underground testing site in augest 1944 in checzk, how ever it was over ran by russians but it remaind hidden for a long time cause every one was looking for an above ground site like the manhaton project. now the heavy water bit, if u really did reserch of bothside stories according to intligents the carpet bombing in norway hit the water plant but how ever compleatly missed the heavy water production part so the germans increesed the production by 300% in 2 months, that is why they underground resistance had orders from the british to blow up the cargo ship cause the brits missed. how ever 4 years or so ago the dug up parts of the cargo ship sites and found out that was only a mear 5 or 10%, no one knows what happend to the rest cause the germans burned a lot of paper work. pluse a good % of the barrels on the ship was in the middle of seperating so they floated, if u read the underground reports they sent the the brits they said about 30% floted and germans picked them up. to make a A bomb u need havy water and uranium to make plutonium, germans figuerd that out in 1938, why do u think we kindnaped germans to help build ours. they never pushed the A-bomb cause they figuerd it would be a waste of recorses to build a bomb when the war was saposed to be super short, it would never get used, so the pushed other reserch hitler thought was important like jets, and long range rockets. if they knew how the war was going to turn out they would have put every thing into it instead when they had the money to make one. watch hitlers secreat wepon it is a documentry that talks all about it on why they never made attemted to build one after doing all of the reserch.
RoninZero141 04-10-07, 08:47 PM	Here's my problem chegeta, what's your actual point? It's almost like you're saying that because the Nazi's never got the bomb in "real" history, they would never get it in an "alternate" history.
chegeta 04-16-07, 03:54 AM	well see the bigger thing is this, after they won the war would they think it was still important? they did not think it was important enough to build in real history cause they thought they would win to fast to ever use it. if hitler lived for a good long time after the war ya they would hae built it, but if he died probably not cause they think why build a weapon for war if there is no more war. they wanted to rule the world pretty much, who would they bomb? their allies in italy or japan? hitler only wanted it to bomb russia, but it was looking like they were going to rule russia so it would be part of the german empire. britan would have been turned into the largest prision in historty so they might bomb them after the conquerd them but it would cause more problems with paratasins. if they won the war all that would be left to bomb would be countries they added to their empire so they would be bombing their own country. the german scientest would not want to build a wepon they would never use. but maybe they would think it was important to waste money on a unusabule power wepon. i belive in maybeish, i think they would have done more reserch to find better use of a-bomb tech into more modern things. something smaller for ground force use, or armor use.
ScS 04-17-07, 01:02 PM	Oh, I don't know, I think that even in the event of a German victory, Hitler would have continued research in an atomic bomb. Remember, victory in World War II does not mean that everyone in the world just gives up forever. For one, both the USA and Japan would still exist. These two aggressive powers would always be a check to Germany's power abroad. Considering the size of the US and the remoteness of Japan, an A bomb would be best to ensure that neither power got ambitious.
Eatable_Dice 04-20-07, 05:11 PM	Those interested in an alternate world after WWII should read a Phillip K. Dick´s novel called "The Man in the High Castle". It is precisely about it and excellent, as most of his work.