Post/Author/DateTime	Post
psly4mne 01-22-06, 12:13 AM	On the Nasty Gentlemen thread (LoP's dirty trick #4), we discussed ways of achieving world record damage by combining three Dirty Tricks - Attack of the Clones, Perpetual Damage Machine, and of course the Nasty Gentlemen. The number started at 10^21, then grew in fits and bounds. Eventually, it grew beyond the realm of calculation. Consequently, calculating the damage is getting difficult. EDIT: I updated and simplified the routine. The damage is now much more. I am leaving this post as the original for reference, but the latest number is HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8378468&postcount=58). Last change: Used Reciprocal Gyre for higher seed damage, 2/18/06. First, the builds. These are not that important, so don't focus on them. They just include the few necessary elements and a bunch of fluff. Abe: DaelkyrHalfBlood Wiz5 / Incantatrix10 / ImpurePrince5 Bee: Warforged Egoist17 Cecil: Human Artificer14 / Cleric1 / Chameleon2 Equipment used: 2 staves of Body Outside Body, 1 staff of Blood of the Martyr, 1 staff of Delayed Blast Fireball at CL 20, 4096 Shadow Siblings. Only one or two charges on each staff are needed - Power Surge will take care of the rest. Preparation: Bee manifests Fusion with Cecil, then with Abe. Then the cloning begins. First, Abe/Bee/Cecil infuses the staff with Metamagic Item three times (for Repeat, Twin, and Persistent). Abe/Bee/Cecil casts Body Outside Body from one staff. The clone takes the second staff, infuses it with Power Surge, and clones himself. This process continues for a long time (and starts long before the routine begins), so clone supply is effectively limitless. Whenever, a Fusion or an infusion needs to be replaced, the clones can take care of it. Whenever a Fusion on the main character (ABC) ends, a clone replaces it with a twinned Fusion targeting the two parts of ABC (so ABC is fused all day). This also replenishes ABC's power points. At the beginning of the day, a bunch of clones change their Chameleon feats to various metamagics, divine metamagics, and extra turnings. One changes its feat to Mental Resistance and one takes Snowcasting. Metamagic Item and Cooperative Metamagic take care of all the metamagic. All spells are Twinned, Repeated, Persisted (if applicable), and Quickened (if listed as a swift action). They are also shared with the symbionts, with the exception of the Shapechange. Now, for the explanation of the routine. In the first round, all the necessary preparatory spells are cast. Clones repeatedly infuse ABC with Construct Essence to take care of ability damage for attaching symbionts. The symbiont clones attach in between Body Outside Body castings, so the results of the Body Outside Body castings multiply. Next, ABC alternates manifesting extended Affinity Field and extended Fate Links. The Fate Links target ABC (who is under the effect of Affinity Field) and a clone who maintains an Affinity Field. This gives everyone within 20 feet (in particular, ABC and a lot of symbionts) a Fate Link to everyone else within 20 feet. This does not create an infinite loop because Fate Link cannot target the same creature twice. Now, move within 20 feet of the bad guy. ABC changes into a Jovoc for the retributive aura ability. Then a clone uses a readied action to blast ABC with a heavily metamagicked Sphere of Ultimate Destruction. The Fate Links throw a lot of damage around. The only thing keeping the damage finite is the Mental Resistances damping the feedback with DR 3/-. There are 14400 rounds in the duration of a Persistent spell. 1[standard] Shapechange (into a Chronotyrn) 1[swift] Death Ward 1[dual] Mirror Action (Mental Resistance) not twinned or repeated 1[dual swift] Delay Death 2[standard] Body Outside Body 2[swift] Body Outside Body 2[dual] Body Outside Body 2[dual swift] Body Outside Body 3-10400 Same as 2 10401[standard] Extend Fate Link 10401[move] focus 10401[dual] Extend Fate Link 10401[dual move] focus 10402-12400 Same as 10401 Except: must lose one Fate Link for an Affinity Field once every 40 rounds (including one in round 10401) Total 2000/40=50 Fate Links lost Also: Must lose one Fate Link to target the bad guy 12401[free] Change into a Jovoc with the Shapechange 12401[nonaction] A clone casts Sphere of Ultimate Destuction from the staff (Empowered, Maximized, Enervated, Fiery, Snowcast, Energy Substituted, Admixed, Repeated, and Twinned) 12401[standard] Blood of the Martyr 12401[swift] Blood of the Martyr 12401[dual] Blood of the Martyr 12401[dual swift] Blood of the Martyr 12402-14400 Same as 12401 Total: Body Outside Body castings: 10399*4*4=166384 Symbionts: 4096*5^166384=1.090e116301 Fate Links among symbionts: 2000*2-51=3949 Damage Reduction: 3 Affinity Fields active at end: 0 Blood of the Martyr castings: 2000*4*4=32000 Initial Damage: Sphere: 40d6 Enervate: 60d6 Fiery: 60d6+60 Admix: 120d6+120 Empower: 120d6+60d6+180 Max: 900+60d6 Total: 960-1260 960-1260 initial damage. The damage then scales according to the following nonlinear difference equations: S(i)=0 for i <= u S(i) = i-u for u < i <= 2u S(i) = (i-u)+r*(2+a)(i-2u) + r*(n-1)*S(i-u) + n*r*(r+1+a)*S(i-2u) for i>=2u D(i)=2n*S(i)+2n*(r+2)*S(i-u)+(8i-6u) T(0)=D(m) T(i)=D(T(i-1)) for i>0 Total damage = T(b), where u = amount of damage reduction, here 3 r = number of Fate Links, here 3949 n = number of Symbionts after Body Outside Body cloning, here 1.090e116301 a = number of Affinity Fields active, here 0 m = damage dealt by initial spell (Delayed Blast Fireball in this case), here 900+60d6 b = number of Blood of the Martyrs cast, here 32000 S(i) is an exponential function. D(i) is therefore exponential. T(i) is feedback into an exponential function, which makes it REALLY BIG. I am not going to solve this now. MAYBE I will be inspired to do it later. If anyone is feeling ambitious, the equation for D(i) can be solved explicitly with diagonalization or generating functions. I think generating functions would be marginally easier. To give you an idea of what kind of numbers we are talking about, I ran a simulation for u=3, r=200, n=2^20, a=0, m=480, b=0. I could not do b>0 because it would take too long to run and be too big to write down. The damage was 4.133e1321.
Tempest Stormwind 01-22-06, 12:29 AM	You know, seeing numbers like this would make a normal player cry. To me, I think "Hmm. Would using any of the numerical tricks I've learned from thermal physics and quantum theory help here?" (Note: Thermal physics uses three vague classifications of numbers. Small numbers are anything that can be expressed reasonably without an exponential. Their definition of a "large number" is something made by exponentiating small numbers -- the main example is usually Avogadro's number, 10^23. They define very large numbers as something that can be made by exponentiating large numbers -- in other words, 10^10^23 would be a Very Large Number. And then they use mathematical tricks to actually work with numbers like that. A simple example of such a stunt would be Stirling's approximation of a factorial -- N! ~ N^N x e^-N x (2*pi*N)?1/2 -- or the simplified approximation thereof, which is ln N! ~ N*ln(N)-N.) It feels really weird to be this jaded. At the same time, this is the first non-assignment based application of my quantum course... I'll see if I can figure out a numeric method of solving those. I need SOMETHING to keep my busy in my computer science course...
Warlock33 01-22-06, 12:39 AM	I hate you guys
tsuyoshikentsu 01-22-06, 02:18 AM	I know what you mean, Tempest. I also am used to working with numbers this big; my physics teacher has us do things like calculate the gravitational force our galaxy creates on the next closest one. Still... Very cool.
Tektonik 01-22-06, 02:54 AM	Ummmmm so yeah. This is pretty much a crap load of damage and still can not kill the twice-betrayer of shar? :)
Surreal 01-22-06, 04:46 AM	Whee... and to think I used to work as a math teacher... *goes back to working on thesis and numbers on the really small scale of atomic diffusion*
Aramul 01-22-06, 01:07 PM	That's pretty neat, but if you take an infinite loop, and introduce a step to break it down, is it really a world record? I mean you've still got an infinite loop at the heart of the record. Kinda seems like taking Pun Pun, stopping at an arbitrarily enormous number, then claiming the record for everything. The only thing keeping the damage finite is the Mental Resistances damping the feedback with DR 3/-.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 01-22-06, 01:50 PM	That's pretty neat, but if you take an infinite loop, and introduce a step to break it down, is it really a world record? I mean you've still got an infinite loop at the heart of the record. Kinda seems like taking Pun Pun, stopping at an arbitrarily enormous number, then claiming the record for everything. I tend to agree. I'm not seeing where there's a limit to the damage here. Although the method is pretty complex and I don't quite understand it all. I get the impression that more clones = more symbiotes. I also get the impression that clones are in an unending supply. Is there really a finite cap to the number of clones you use? *If I sound like I don't understand the process at all, it's probably because I don't*
LordofProcrastination 01-22-06, 02:18 PM	Is there really a finite cap to the number of clones you use?Yes. It is capped by both the number of times we can cast Body Outside Body within the strictures of the assorted durations involved in the combination as well as the number of castings available in a day at all. This combination is way more than a slightly-disrupted infinite loop. It is a rather devious mechanism for both multiplying the output of a spell, producing feedback reverberations, and damping those reverberations such that the combination is absolutely finite, just outrageously large. A primary difference between the manipulate-form/Pun-Pun combination and this Nasty Damage Combo is that the Nasty Damage combo is constrained by a wide variety of resource-limitations which make maximization within those bounds a real challenge. This isn't "Nigh-Infinite," this is "Really Fawking Huge." I would like to echo psly4mne's call for a programmer or mathematician with the guts and know-how to solve the damage equation. Numerical advantage is a primary feature of character optimization, and I wouldn't want it to be thought that the CO boards can't even figure out the amount of numerical advantage for a premier combo with discrete variables.
Aramul 01-22-06, 03:03 PM	This combination is way more than a slightly-disrupted infinite loop. It is a rather devious mechanism for both multiplying the output of a spell, producing feedback reverberations, and damping those reverberations such that the combination is absolutely finite, just outrageously large. So basically, you could make the combination do more by not damping the reverberations. And in doing so you would deal infinite damage, yes? I understand the devious-ness of it (not going to try to figure out exactly what is going on with the clones and such), but, assuming I read the original post right, you use one power to cap the otherwise infinite damage. Using exactly the same build and almost the same set up, you could break your current amount of damage and send the damage to infinite. Unless my understanding of this aspect is flawed, what you have *is* a disrupted infinite loop. Pun Pun can continue to increase to infinite stats if desired, you could continue to increase to infinite damage if desired. You make the choice once (when the one spell is cast), a Pun Pun build is continually faced with that choice.
LordofProcrastination 01-22-06, 03:11 PM	I see your point. To be literal the damage is being actively prevented from going infinite, and thus can be considered a "disrupted infinite loop." I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is a legitimate intellectual optimization challenge in producing the highest-possible non-infinite damage possible in this game. That's what I mean when I say that there is more to this combination than a pre-existing infinite loop.
Aramul 01-22-06, 03:21 PM	I see your point. To be literal the damage is being actively prevented from going infinite, and thus can be considered a "disrupted infinite loop." I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is a legitimate intellectual optimization challenge in producing the highest-possible non-infinite damage possible in this game. That's what I mean when I say that there is more to this combination than a pre-existing infinite loop. It is a very cool and complex combo, and I'd certainly love to see the number it results in. Haven't taken quite enough math/comp sci courses to help though, and I don't currently have access to Mathematica.
Surreal 01-22-06, 03:58 PM	And somewhere off in the corner, the Hulking Hurler is in an emo sulk... "I was the first one to use scientific notation..."
SigmaJargon 01-22-06, 04:09 PM	(Just as a side note, your post is rather difficult to read. Find->Replace to get rid of the acronyms would make the post longer, but much more readable) I can imagine doing this on the computer (it is a relatively simply recursive function), with the minor problem that you would have to write your once floating point class to deal with the fact that double precision is not going to be enough. 2^1023 is far too low to deal with the damage that this character will be dishing out. I can imagine doing something with BigIntegers, but it will have to wait until I finish with my other CS homework. I don't to use BigInt's directly - they would be completely precise, but would take up an excessive amount of memory - so using them to create a floating point that can scale to size as needed is ideal.
psly4mne 01-22-06, 04:57 PM	I have been away from my computer for most of the day, so I will try to respond to everything now. @Tempest Stormwind: 10^10^p is not nearly sufficient to represent this. T(b) is a tower of several hundred large exponents. There are at least two ways to solve this: Diagonalization: look at how stepping i by u transforms the vector [S(i); S(i-u); i; 1]. It is a linear transformation. By diagonalizing the standard matrix, you can get an explicit expression for S(i). This can give you an explicit, exact expression for D(i). Approximate D(i) by dropping all but the largest term, then write D(b) as a tower of b/u exponents. Generating functions: Define f to be the function f(x) = sum(x^i * S(i), i = 0 to inf). Subtract out the first two terms, then apply the recursive relation to the remaining coefficients. You will get a a polynomial equation in f(x) and x. Solve for f(x). Write f(x) in partial fractions. Take a Taylor series on each term. The sums of corresponding coefficients in the Taylor series (which are necessarily exponential) are the S(i)s. As an approximation, retain only the largest one. Proceed as before to find D(b). Alright, I provided the know-how. PLEASE, someone have the guts to solve the equations. If nobody does this soon, perhaps during a boring Computer Science course, I will get on it. I get the impression that more clones = more symbiotes. I also get the impression that clones are in an unending supply. Is there really a finite cap to the number of clones you use?The clones of the clones are in more plentiful supply, but the symbionts only multiply with the clones of the original, which are very limited. The number I used is pretty close to a hard cap on the number of symbionts. The objection that this could go infinite by not casting Mirror Move has been raised. Well, it doesn't. So there. :P And somewhere off in the corner, the Hulking Hurler is in an emo sulk... "I was the first one to use scientific notation..."Scientific notation just doesn't cut it anymore. Even without the BotMs. (Just as a side note, your post is rather difficult to read. Find->Replace to get rid of the acronyms would make the post longer, but much more readable)I'm on it. I can imagine doing this on the computer (it is a relatively simply recursive function), with the minor problem that you would have to write your once floating point class to deal with the fact that double precision is not going to be enough. 2^1023 is far too low to deal with the damage that this character will be dishing out. I can imagine doing something with BigIntegers, but it will have to wait until I finish with my other CS homework. I don't to use BigInt's directly - they would be completely precise, but would take up an excessive amount of memory - so using them to create a floating point that can scale to size as needed is ideal.I wrote such a recursive program in Ruby (Ruby's Bignum can hold up to 10^10^10) to use before I discovered BotM. The trouble is that doing this now would take too much runtime. There would be more levels of recursion than you could shake a really big stick at. Even using dynamic programming, the runtime would be unacceptably long. Here is the program. It does not handle BotM for the reasons stated above. class Numeric #Converts to scientific notation def sci str = to_s pow = str.length-1 return str[0..0]<<"."<<str[1..3]<<"e"<<pow.to_s end end class NilClass def sci "" end end class NastyR attr_reader :syms, :fates, :fields, :reduce, :initial, :damMe, :damSym, :damTot, :reduceStr attr_writer :syms, :fates, :fields, :initial def dostuff @damSym=[0] #Will hold final results of damage dealt to Symbionts @damMe=[0] #Will hold final results of damage dealt to the main character @damTot=[0] #Will hold final results of twinned burst damage @initial.sort! d=@initial[-1] #The largest initial damage needed to check (1..d).each do |i| j=@reduce[i] #The damage actually taken if j>=0 and (j%3)==0 @damSym[i] = j+@fates*(@damMe[j]+(@syms-1)*@damSym[j]) #One Fate Link sends damage to the target. @fates Fate Links each send damage to the main character and @syms-1 other symbionts @damMe[i] = (2+@fields)*j+(@fates+@fields+1)*@syms*@ damSym[j] #One Fate Link, @fields Affinity Fields, and Retributive Aura each send damage to the target. @fates Fate Links, @fields Affinity Fields, and Retributive Aura each send damage to @syms symbionts @damTot[i] = 2*(@damMe[i]+@syms*@damSym[i]+i) # i damage is initially dealt twice each (because of Twin) to the main character, @syms symbionts, and the target. else @damSym[i]=@damMe[i]=@damTot[i]=0 end puts "#{i}: #{damTot[i].size}" if i%6==0 end to_s end def output @initial.each do |i| puts "#{i}: #{damTot[i].sci}" end end def auto @initial = [480, 630 #Initial damage values to check self.reduce="x-3"#The result of energy resistance @syms=4096*(5**166384) #Number of symbionts @fates=3949 #Number of Fate Links @fields=0 #Number of Affinity Fields @damSym=@damMe=@damTot=[0] to_s end def input puts "Number of symbionts?" @syms=eval(gets) puts "Number of Fate Links (self-self)?" @fates=eval(gets.strip) puts "Number of Affinity Fields?" @fields=eval(gets) puts "How much damage is actually taken if x is dealt?" self.reduce=gets puts "What initial damage values should be checked? (space-delimited)" @initial = gets.split.collect!{|x| eval(x)} @damSym=@damMe=@damTot=[0] to_s end def reduce=(str) #Converts a string representing energy resistance into an object @reduce = proc {|x| eval(str)} @reduceStr=str end def reduce return @reduceStr end def to_s "Symbionts: #{@syms.sci}, Fate Links: #@fates, Affinity Fields: #@fields, Resistance: #@reduceStr" end end
oxybe 01-22-06, 06:19 PM	good crap on a stick... as much as i like numbers, i'm just a simple network admin/comp tech... not an engineer. :weep: i really wish i could help out with these numbers but alas, my math isn't at that advanced a level (i haven't done high school-grade calculus in almost 3 years). on the otherhand, i commend you on these obscene numbers. :cheer: :clap: :cheer: :clap: :cheer: :clap: :cheer: :clap: :cheer: :clap: :cheer:
Impeesa 01-22-06, 06:34 PM	To me, I think "Hmm. Would using any of the numerical tricks I've learned from thermal physics and quantum theory help here?" And to think, I should be working on my Statistical Mechanics (read: thermal physics and quantum theory) homework at this very moment. But I'm not, I'm reading this and trying to think of ways I could solve it. Despite being a nearly-graduated Comp Sci/Physics major, I never did cram in a course in numerical analysis. Oddly enough, I'm not a big fan of abstract math. Still, I do have the ability to stick the equations in Matlab and let it run on one of the university servers until it's done... maybe if no one else comes up with a better solution. ;) --Impeesa--
Previn 01-22-06, 07:16 PM	Not to be a stick in the mud, but who cares? Seriously, you're doing damage in number so high that we don't even have names for the numbers. There is no point to calculating the damage short of ego boosting. Player 1: "I did a billion damage!" Player 2: "I did a trillion and 4 damage!" player 3: "I did 2^64-1." DM: ".... Dudes, it's a damned KOBOLD. It had 4 hp." All Players: "Butbutbutbut...."
Impeesa 01-22-06, 07:23 PM	DM: ".... Dudes, it's a damned KOBOLD. It had 4 hp." Not our kobolds. You must be new here. --Impeesa--
LordofProcrastination 01-22-06, 07:26 PM	Not to be a stick in the mud, but who cares? ... There is no point to calculating the damage short of ego boosting. *Cough* Intellectual challenge. Determination of numerical advantage. To be precise and thorough in optimization of a D&D combination. If you don't care about these things, Previn, then don't post in threads concerning them. To do otherwise borders on worse than being a log in a cesspit, it is tantamount to casting a 3.0 Polymorph Self with the target form possessing the characteristic traits of regeneration and vulnerability to fire and acid.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 01-22-06, 10:00 PM	Just out of random curiosity... how many of y'all are physics majors? I think we may be able to draw a correlation between physics/com-sci and D&D. I'm a physics/math major so I at least have one half of that combo... Anyways, just thought I'd ask that... it seems we have revealed a couple physics majors on this thread already.
SigmaJargon 01-22-06, 10:06 PM	Just out of random curiosity... how many of y'all are physics majors? I think we may be able to draw a correlation between physics/com-sci and D&D. I'm a physics/math major so I at least have one half of that combo... Anyways, just thought I'd ask that... it seems we have revealed a couple physics majors on this thread already.Dual Comp-Sci/Math major. I'm one of those annoying super-freshmen. :D A connection between math/cs/physics and character optimization wouldn't be too surprising, IMHO. You need a certain mindset to want to crunch numbers or sort through hundreds of pages of material for synergistic combinations. As for DnD in general, who knows? More of the people I am playing with now are psych/sociology/political science majors than math/cs/physics.
Impeesa 01-22-06, 10:31 PM	As above, this is my last semester before graduating with a double major in computer science and physics. I hope to start in on an MSc in the area of robotics this fall. I am by far the most hardcore min/maxer in my group. The one other guy in the group who's a computer science major (no physics) is relatively new to the game and still pretty casual, but he has taken on quite the competitive edge at M:TG in the year or two since we hooked him on that. I think there's probably some correlation there. --Impeesa--
tsuyoshikentsu 01-22-06, 10:47 PM	Okay, yeah, the poor high-school Drama major is totally lost. I followed you through some of the simpler stuff, but... yeah. I'm gone. By the way, I thinhk Kobolds are close to becoming the most optimizable race, if not the most optimized.
BigSpaghetti 01-22-06, 10:59 PM	I tried to follow it, I really did. But I got lost. My brain turned to mush, and all I could think was "Thog like big numbers." Either way, I'd say this is a world record. From waht I understand of the loop (not the math), it is a finite loop more than a disrupted infinite loop.
NoldorForce 01-22-06, 11:13 PM	Eww...this reminds me of the Ackermann function (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ackermann_Function).
Quenditar 01-22-06, 11:14 PM	I'm not a math or comp sci major at all, but I could probably get access to Mathematica if someone else could write the program.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 01-22-06, 11:18 PM	I'll admit the reason I don't understand most of the calculations here is because I just can't read them in a computer print-out style format. I'm no com-sci guy, I like my math on pencil and paper... preferably without a calculator. Perhaps you could load the equations into mathematica and then upload the picture of the "tradtional" output format? Anyways, I'll just take your word for it that this is a non-infinite number. This may have important ramifications, but I'm not seeing it right at the moment. I seem to remember wanting a large amount of damage, but not wanting infinite damage. I can't remember what I wanted that for though.... Is there an application for this much damage... aside from saying that I've dealt the most damage possible without using an infinite loop? If I can remember what I was thinking about, I'll post it...
LordofProcrastination 01-22-06, 11:39 PM	I guess it's easy to tell, Quenditar, that I'm an engineer, not an english professor. At this point, this Dirty Damage combo doesn't really have a particular in-game purpose beyond incredible damage results. Still, as an optimization exercise (as well as a clear record), it would be nice to have a concrete number calculated.
SigmaJargon 01-22-06, 11:59 PM	I guess it's easy to tell, Quenditar, that I'm an engineer, not an english professor. At this point, this Dirty Damage combo doesn't really have a particular in-game purpose beyond incredible damage results. Still, as an optimization exercise (as well as a clear record), it would be nice to have a concrete number calculated.The problem is that, like the forementioned Ackermann function, it might not be computationally feasible to provide a concrete result. Besides the computing time required it might take an excessive amount of memory unless some sort of multiple level exponent number is implemented.
Chaos116882 01-23-06, 04:17 PM	If someone can write what the program would be in Mathematica ill gladly run it...i have NO clue how to write the script that would run this in mathematica
psly4mne 01-26-06, 01:54 PM	I'll admit the reason I don't understand most of the calculations here is because I just can't read them in a computer print-out style format. I'm no com-sci guy, I like my math on pencil and paper... preferably without a calculator. I know a challenge when I see one. After 4+ hours of work, I solved this on pencil with a paper (my brain is fried). I had to use a calculator for the numbers (I'm not that crazy). This is what I came up with. Total damage before the first BotM > 10^38772 Total damage on last casting of BotM > a^a^...(31999 as)...a^a, where a>10^10^232610. Note that a^a^a means a^(a^a), not (a^a)^a. The reason I only have lower bounds, not exact numbers, is that I had to make some approximations to keep the numbers reasonable. If anyone wants details, PM me.
RadicalTaoist 01-26-06, 02:21 PM	...when the hardest part of reaching your damage record is keeping it from going infinite, one would think there's less and less point to damage records. I'm personally curious to see how this is calculated though.
LordofProcrastination 01-29-06, 02:48 PM	Total damage on last casting of BotM > a^a^...(31999 as)...a^a, where a>10^10^232610. Note that a^a^a means a^(a^a), not (a^a)^a. Most excellent work, psly4mne! So, the current World Record for non-infinite damage in one round is this astronomical number where: "a" = 10^10^232,610, then taken to the power of itself 31,999 times in succession. This is so large that a single post cannot contain it. (10^10^232,610)^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ 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a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a^ a Hot Damn! Hooray for Dirty Trick synergy and psly4mne's hard work crunching the numbers.
psly4mne 01-29-06, 03:44 PM	...when the hardest part of reaching your damage record is keeping it from going infinite, one would think there's less and less point to damage records.Still, the record exists, so it would be a shame not to break it...I'm personally curious to see how this is calculated though.Read the article in Wikipedia called Generating function (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generating_function). I used an ordinary generating function on S(n), after revising the difference equations slightly to account for the fact that Retributive Aura deals non-psionic damage. S(n) was a sum of four other functions. I kept only the largest one (which dwarfed the others) and plugged in to finish the job. Of course, I did everything symbolically until the end.
RadicalTaoist 01-30-06, 01:31 AM	Hmm. We've got a damage record that's such a huge number, it forces scientific notation to double back on itself and still requires two posts' worth of space. I know that the charge of "you CO board members are a bunch of D&D-hating munchkins" is trollish nonsense, but I think I can see where the hasty may come to that incorrect conclusion. *high fives for LoP and psyl4me* Now, to get in on the fun, I'm going to see what I can do for more practical damage engines. By that I mean to see if I can use these stunts to put the Tarrasque to sleep for a couple of eons at lower and lower levels. 13 might be a good start.
X-Codes 01-30-06, 01:55 AM	You know what? ...thats BIG... Seriously... Wow... Now even the Hulking Hurler has been beaten by spellcasters.
tak3thatback 01-30-06, 02:09 AM	Start destroying planes.
Dark_beebles 01-30-06, 04:08 AM	Hmm..i dont mean to sound like a tick and all and suck the fun out of your little char..but you cant fusion more then once...
Eagle Prince 01-30-06, 09:28 AM	Hmm..i dont mean to sound like a tick and all and suck the fun out of your little char..but you cant fusion more then once... heh, or body outside of body... hmm, I wonder how high of Strength you could get if you allowed bull's strength to ignore stacking rules also. Lol, or let improvised weapons go into imaginary size catagories above colossal.
LordofProcrastination 01-30-06, 09:47 AM	Hmm..i dont mean to sound like a tick and all and suck the fun out of your little char..but you cant fusion more then once... This is a myth. The text of fusion prevents the fusing of a character with fission active on it, but there is nothing against multiple fusions.
Eagle Prince 01-30-06, 09:55 AM	You mean besides this rule that says you can't stack the same effect over and over. You know, like casting polymorph a billion times for a +10 billion bonus to disguise, or energy immunity 5 times to be immune to all energy types.
LordofProcrastination 01-30-06, 10:12 AM	Same Effect with Differing Results The same power or spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. The last effect in a series trumps the others. This is the situation of casting fusion with in succession. To compare this to multi-casting polymorph and claiming spurious bonuses is a drastic oversimplification.
Eagle Prince 01-30-06, 10:30 AM	I can cast polymorph in succession, it doesn't make it stack. In fact, I seem to remember you saying to take 'stackable' feats/abilities for synergy, yet the power says if you both have the same ability, you only gain it once. So even that little 'stacking' trick doesn't work with only fusing 2 people.
LordofProcrastination 01-30-06, 10:52 AM	Interesting distinction which occurred to me: Post-fusion, the creature is a new, distinct being from the previous two constituent parties, and thus may perhaps be considered a first-target for the fusion power. Odd.
Eagle Prince 01-30-06, 11:07 AM	That wouldn't change the fact he is still under the effects of fusion already, because if he wasn't, the effect would end and you'd split. But it is more like two people in one body, it even talks about how you can change which of you is in control of your new body.
RadicalTaoist 01-30-06, 11:47 AM	It's like getting multiple Fate Links or Share Pains with different targets. Nothing against it. Sure, the whole thing will probably unravel when the first Fusion falls apart, but that's rounds and rounds away.
Eagle Prince 01-30-06, 12:13 PM	If you cast share pain on target 1 and then again on target 2, you would only split damage with target 2. If you dismissed (or got dispelled) the second casting of share pain, then it would revert to the first casting with target 1. If you fused with someone and then tried to cast it again, then the spell couldn't work and you would have power failure, meaning you just waste your time and PP. Same as if you tried to cast charm person on an elf polymorphed into a giant, you'd cast the spell but it would have no effect. So just a waste of spell.
RadicalTaoist 01-30-06, 05:06 PM	If you cast share pain on target 1 and then again on target 2, you would only split damage with target 2. If you dismissed (or got dispelled) the second casting of share pain, then it would revert to the first casting with target 1. :confused: It's not providing a bonus (like Bull's Strength). It's not providing a redundant ability (like Fly). It's not providing a redundant effect (like Haste). The first Share Pain is not dispelled. If you fused with someone and then tried to cast it again, then the spell couldn't work and you would have power failure, meaning you just waste your time and PP. Same as if you tried to cast charm person on an elf polymorphed into a giant, you'd cast the spell but it would have no effect. So just a waste of spell. The effects of Share Pain, Fate Link, and Fusion are not to provide a bonus (which would not stack, being from the same source), nor to provide a set ability (which would be redundant from multiple castings), nor a set effect like Haste's single extra attack (which states it would not stack, and none of the above mentioned powers state anything to that effect). I'm just not seeing this.
Eagle Prince 01-30-06, 06:02 PM	It doesn't matter if it doesn't result in a 'redundant' ability. Neither does casting resist energy (fire) and then resist energy (acid), but you do not end up with both of them. You'd only get the acid resistance since that is the last one you cast. If it got dispelled, then it would revert back to the now active fire, but you wouldn't get them both at the same time. I think I read a post today where LoP pointed out this same stacking rule for casting energy immunity a bunch of times to gain immunity to all energy types. I wouldn't call immunity to cold and immunity to sonic redundant, but as you see it doesn't stack even still. Basically if you see a combo that uses multiple castings of the same spell over and over, then it is probably not following stacking rules. IE, I've seen people try to boost up their strength to an insane number doing something cheesy like casting girallon's blessing -> fuse arms -> girallon's blessing -> fuse arms, etc... Then they sometimes even try arguing it with something lame like oh, but it works cause, um, the one spell gets rid of your extra arms. Well it doesn't really work like that, and it was a cornball idea to begin with. I don't find this to be a unique problem just with this build either, I have seen people around here make builds that cast polymorph over and over and had all the racial bonuses stack... and then argue that it works even after shown where it points it out specifically as an illegal combo right in the PHB. So keep that in mind, some people get kind of stubborn about their builds and will try to convince you of a (nonexistant) rule loophole. There are definatily real rule problems, I'd just rather see the real ones and not a lot of perceived loopholes due to misused rules.
RadicalTaoist 01-30-06, 09:44 PM	Hmm. Good call. I incorrectly remember Protection from Energy and Resist Energy having specific lines stating that previous castings replaced each other (like the similar Energy powers do). Assuming that precedent would solidify your argument. I double checked Fusion's text to be sure. Good news and bad news for your argument: Good News: Your precedent does stand. Bad News: The text of Fusion never states that you, the manifester, gain these benefits. The fused being is, in all cases, referred to as a separate creature from the two original targets, which means it is a separate creature that manifests Fusion on the other Fusions and so on. You and the other target simply cease to exist while the power functions. Think of it as a combo Summon/Time Hop. Now when the first Fusion ends, that means one of the targets for the composite Fusion ends, and the whole thing unravels. But while the first Fusion lasts, it's solid. Now what this does to Fate Link I'm not sure. If you use a Chain Spell or multitarget spell precedence, casting a second spell with multiple targets may not stack, but it does not nullify the previous spell effect. Fate Link's effect is damage, and damage stacks.
Eagle Prince 01-30-06, 10:01 PM	If you recheck LoP's post, he already mentioned that maybe the fused creature could be considered seperate. But this being is only in existance while the fusion lasts, when it ends you seperate from each other. So the fused being automatically has to be already under the effects of this power, otherwise he would split back into the targets and no longer exist. And that assuming he counts as a seperate person in the first place, and not two people in one body, which is really what the power does. Chain Power only works on a power with a single target, so it is not usable with the Fate Link. If you cast fate link on target1 and target2, then cast it again on target2 and target3, the first one between target 1 and 2 would be suppressed. So then if target3 got hit, it would be shared with target2 but not target1. If target1 was hit, it would not share with anyone, because basically only the second casting is working currently.
NoldorForce 02-01-06, 02:20 PM	What is the precise wording of Delay Death that allows you to survive? I was idly looking through Complete Arcane and found that Sphere of Ultimate Destruction disintegrates you if you are "reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell..." Now of course, if all the affected clones and symbionts weren't reduced to 0 by this spell (instead by the damage loop), you'd be fine. But is there a way around this? Note: No, I don't have Spell Compendium.
Eagle Prince 02-01-06, 10:18 PM	Hmm, nice catch. I hadn't looked over all the spells used as well as you. The spell says 'the normal limit of -9 hit points before a character dies is extended without limit' then it also goes on to specifically point out anything that destroys your body beyond a raise dead being able to restore life (ie disintegrate), skill kills the creature, as does death from ability damage, level drain, death effect. Also does not prevent a creature from entering a dying state (ie unconscious). Sphere of Ultimate Descruction does indeed say you are destroyed at 0 hp and it also says it counts as a disintegrate. So delay death does not protect you from the sphere. Thx for the help.
LordofProcrastination 02-01-06, 10:54 PM	Indeed, the Sphere of Ultimate Destruction will have to be replaced as a "spark" spell. That, or we budget for some armor-like-item with "Proof Against Transmutation." More importantly, here's a distinction that Eagle Prince is missing with the whole "separate being" part of Fusion. The fused being isn't the recipient of Fusion, it is the result of a Fusion effect. Therefore, a new manifestation of Fusion would take place on a creature who had never been the recipient of a Fusion power, and thus would be a valid target for said power and benefit from it like any other creature.
Eagle Prince 02-01-06, 11:41 PM	No, what I think is you are just looking for some way to make this horrible build work. If what you say was true then the fusion would never end because you've decided to make him completely independant of the spell effect. By your ruling we could also cast, lets say divine agility, and then we could cast it again on the fused being because he is new and not under the spell effect! Its just plain stupid and reminds me why I stoped bothering coming around here.
psly4mne 02-02-06, 01:09 PM	note:Final routine lower in the post NoldorForce, thanks for pointing out the Delay Death problem. I will replace that. I'm pretty sure I saw a spell that deals 1d12 per level once, but I can't find it. Anyone know what I'm thinking of? Not that the initial damage makes a huge difference anymore. Until then, I'll go back to DBF. I was thinking of Reciprocal Gyre, which is even better than 1d12 per level. It is effectively flat 25d12, since the Fate Links are enough to max it out. No, what I think is you are just looking for some way to make this horrible build work. If what you say was true then the fusion would never end because you've decided to make him completely independant of the spell effect. By your ruling we could also cast, lets say divine agility, and then we could cast it again on the fused being because he is new and not under the spell effect! Its just plain stupid and reminds me why I stoped bothering coming around here. If you want to be critical and carefully examine the build - check the rules and all that - that is fine. If you just want to be inflammatory and call me names, go somewhere else. Please reread what you have written. I think you agree that it is unneccesarily rude. You will be much more credible if you put some logic into your posts. In all your ranting, I did not see a single quote from a rule. So I will have to do your work for you. What do the rules say about stacking? The only way to find out seems to be to ACTUALLY LOOK AT THE RULES! (using the rules ftw) Give me a minute... Okay, several quotes here. Spell effects that do not stack may overlap, coexist independently, or render one another irrelevant, depending on their exact effects.Okay, so not everything is a question of stacking. Spell effects may actually coexist independently! Imagine that! Still, this doesn't give us a rule for determining what stacks. Incidentally, I am going to use the word "stack" liberally here. Usually I mean coexist independently. COMBINING MAGICAL EFFECTS This seems to be a good place to start Spells or magical effects usually work as described, no matter how many other spells or magical effects happen to be operating in the same area or on the same recipient. Except in special cases, a spell does not affect the way another spell operates. Whenever a spell has a specific effect on other spells, the spell description explains that effect. In other words, assume stuff stacks unless a rule states otherwise. Call this Rule 1. The default behavior is stacking. Several other general rules apply when spells or magical effects operate in the same place: Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above). This obviously doesn't apply. No bonuses used here. Different Bonus Names: The bonuses or penalties from two different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types. A bonus that isn’t named stacks with any bonus. Ditto. Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies. Here's one rule to remember. Call it Rule 2. Same spell, same target, different strengths --> use the "strongest" Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts. Here's another. Call it Rule 3. Same spell, same target, different effects --> use the latest One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. Both spells are still active, but one has rendered the other useless in some fashion. This rule is irrelevant here. Multiple Mental Control Effects: Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as a spell that removes the subjects ability to act. Mental controls that don’t remove the recipient’s ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys. Ditto. Spells with Opposite Effects: Spells with opposite effects apply normally, with all bonuses, penalties, or changes accruing in the order that they apply. Some spells negate or counter each other. This is a special effect that is noted in a spell’s description. Spells with opposite effects stack. Irrelevant here. Instantaneous Effects: Two or more spells with instantaneous durations work cumulatively when they affect the same target.Rule 4. Instantaneous effects stack I noticed that same effect, same strength is not addressed here. So let's make an interpretation. :entirerestofCOboardrunsawayinfear: I'll grant you that we can assume Rule 6. Same spell, same target, same effect --> apply only one Rules 2, 3, and 6 are the sticky ones, the ones that make spells not stack. Note that all of them apply only if we are dealing with the same targets and the same spell. Now, armed with... actually having read the rules, we can look at the combo with a newly critical eye. The first effect Eagle Prince would call into question is the three-character fusion. Personally, I think the multiple fusion idea works, but the rules about fusion are too ambiguous. Consequently, I will not bother to address this. I will instead stop using any fusions at all. Second is the Body Outside Body repetition. This one is left as an exercise for the reader. (HINT: Multiple astral constructs from the same manifester stack. Why?) Now we come to the Fate Links. Let us simplify the situation. Say we have characters A, B, and C. All have Mental Resistance. An interested third party manifests Fate Link (B-C), then (A-B), and (A-B) again. This seems to be the most general situation. Now, character B is dealt 9 damage. What happens? Answer: Let's check the rules. (Is checking the rules ever not the answer? Eagle Prince seems to think so.) Is the first Fate Link still active? Well, it has different targets from the two Fate Links manifested after it, so it is. (Unless you want to twist the rules to say that it is active on one target, but not on the other, in which case what the heck does that mean?). Is the second Fate Link active? Well, it has the same targets as the third, so let's look at the rules. Rule 2 doesn't apply (not different strengths). Rule 3 doesn't apply (not different effects). Rule 6 (which I made up) does apply. So the second Fate Link is not active. Net effect: B takes 9 damage, A takes 6 damage, C takes 6 damage. (Take note: this is contrary to the interpretation I used before.) Finally, we have the question of whether the Bloods of the Martyr stack. Rule 4. QED. Now, let's look at the new routine, taking into account the change - we can now only have one Fate Link between any two participants. Also, I didn't take into account before that damage the target takes gets sent back through Fate Link (Fate Link is two-way). This matters a lot because the target doesn't have Mental Resistance Current Routine Starts Here The big Gyre deals: Gyre: 25d12 Admix: 50d12 Enervate: 75d12 Empower: 75d12+37d12 Fiery: 75d12+37d12+112 Max: 900+37d12+112 = 1012+37d12 Total: 1049 - 1456 Setup: Similar enough that you can figure it out Round 1: Same Rounds 2-9800: 4 BOB castings Round 9801 before actions: The psion (not fused) has previously manifested Affinity Field and shared it with his psicrystal. He now manifests extended overchanneled Fate Link between himself and his psicrystal. Affinity Field does its thing, and everyone is happy. Shift into Jovoc, Blast for 1049 - 1456 damage initial. Round 9801-14400: 4 BotM castings Total: u=3 r=1 n=7600 * 5^(9799*16)=1.563*10^109591 a=0 m=1012+37d12 b=4600*16=73600 The system of equations is: S(i)=B(i)+(n-1)S(i-u)+M(i-u) B(i)=nS(i-u)+M(i-u)+i M(i)=S(i)+nS(i-u)+2B(i) (initial conditions omitted) Solving these by diagonalization yields (very roughly) S(i)=(2n)^(i/u) D(i)=nS(i)+M(i)+B(i) D(i) is very roughly (2n)^(i/u) T(0)=D(m) T(i)=D(T(i-1)) (i>0) So we have: Total damage > (2.5*10^36530)^^73600, using Knuth's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuth_arrow) up-arrow notation Notice that this is more than before. By a lot. This is because stacking Fate Links was a bad idea in the first place - more Bloods of the Martyr are more important once the framework is in place.
oxybe 02-02-06, 01:30 PM	wow. i mean it. wow. that is one huge number. The CO boards have done it again: they found another practical use for physics other then making things explode or making things go up in the air. :D now for the age-old question... can you blow up toril/earth?
LordofProcrastination 02-02-06, 01:30 PM	Bravo, psly4mne, your re-working of the trick is more impressive than ever, to say the very least. Unfortunately, I lack the time to discuss in further depth the merit of multiple castings of fusion or fate link, but happily, such discussion is no longer necessary to validate the combo. At this point, it would take four whole posts to encompass the astronomical number the Dirty Damage Combo is producing, even using simplified notation. :clap: I'll be looking into a better spell to use for our "spark." And yes, this amount of damage far surpasses the HP of an earth-shaped planet. The trick is targetting...
oxybe 02-02-06, 01:37 PM	i remember seeing a spell in BoVD that can deal obscene amounts of damage (something alone the name of "crushing fist of spite")
LordofProcrastination 02-02-06, 01:50 PM	i remember seeing a spell in BoVD that can deal obscene amounts of damage (something alone the name of "crushing fist of spite") Yes, but the Book of Vile Darkness is non-updated 3.0, a no-no in the world of 3.5 legitimacy. The simple was out is to use Polar Ray, which has a 25d6 cap. The more complex method would be to stick with our Sphere of Ultimate Destruction at 40d6, and simply have our artificer apply the Armor Enhancement, Greater infusion from the Eberron campaign setting to the main characters clothes, selecting the Proof Against Transmutation armor special ability from the Complete Arcane. Proof Against Transmutation specifically renders the character immune to the body-destroying effects of disintegration and its kin, the Sphere of Ultimate Destruction.
RadicalTaoist 02-02-06, 01:52 PM	And yes, this amount of damage far surpasses the HP of an earth-shaped planet. The trick is targetting... All I can say is, thank God this can only target creatures. Of course, you could just slap the Perpetual Damage Machine's survival spells and a Masochism on a target, and then give him a big enough boost to attack and damage rolls to smite the planet proper in one hit. That big number divided by 10 is still a big number.
oxybe 02-02-06, 01:52 PM	i keep on forgetting that BoVD is 3.0, my bad.
Endarire 02-16-06, 02:40 AM	This thread has been the funniest part of my day, and thie quote has been the thread's highlight: "...when the hardest part of reaching your damage record is keeping it from going infinite, one would think there's less and less point to damage records." -EE
The Grig Fiddler 02-16-06, 04:56 AM	OK WOW You guys are my new heroes. Numbers hurt my brain and make it want to die. I have nothing to contribute except for praise.
Lilt 02-16-06, 08:07 AM	The simple was out is to use Polar Ray, which has a 25d6 cap. Not that I can't be bothered working it out myself, and there's probably enough damage done anyway, but don't objects only take quarter damage from cold before hardness? Not theat the damage done isn't enough already, but using cold damage might jeapordise the potential to destroy earth/toril.
psly4mne 02-18-06, 01:45 PM	Reciprocal Gyre [Spell Compendium, Sor/Wiz 5] deals up to 25d12 damage and is not CL-dependent. I will edit it in.
Beirnadri Magranth 02-19-06, 09:59 AM	Not our kobolds. You must be new here. --Impeesa-- HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH whoo! im going to read this damage a third time and try to comprehend it.... :( i just suck at math.... (i never even took calculus, I got to precalc and then took stat [i was too drunk in high school to get even that!])
Beirnadri Magranth 02-19-06, 10:12 AM	What is the precise wording of Delay Death that allows you to survive? I was idly looking through Complete Arcane and found that Sphere of Ultimate Destruction disintegrates you if you are "reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell..." Now of course, if all the affected clones and symbionts weren't reduced to 0 by this spell (instead by the damage loop), you'd be fine. But is there a way around this? Note: No, I don't have Spell Compendium. Which if you had... you could find the spell Indomitability.
psly4mne 02-19-06, 02:20 PM	Which if you had... you could find the spell Indomitability. Indomitability, sadly, stops the damage entirely. This combo needed a way to actually take large amounts of damage and survive so that Fate Link and Blood of the Martyr can do their respective things. Sphere of Ultimate Destruction would probably deal a little more damage than Reciprocal Gyre, but say lah vee.
LordofProcrastination 02-19-06, 02:30 PM	Sphere of Ultimate Destruction would probably deal a little more damage than Reciprocal Gyre, but say lah vee. You know, psly4mne, that we can still use Sphere of Ultimate Destruction. All it requires is that we invest in an armor with the "Protection from Transformation" ability, as found in Complete Arcane.
psly4mne 02-19-06, 02:42 PM	Trouble is, can you get 1.563*10^109591 ghost touch suits of armor and cast Protection from Transmutation 1.563*10^109591 times? Anyway, I just did the math and I was wrong - 25d12 hurts more.
LordofProcrastination 02-19-06, 02:49 PM	Anyway, I just did the math and I was wrong - 25d12 hurts more. Glad you found that. Here I was contemplating the prospect of finding a way of obtaining a massive multi-casting of the Greater Armor Enhancement infusion...
fnord 02-19-06, 03:47 PM	So we have: Total damage > a^a^...(73600 as total)...^a^a where a is about 2.5*10^36530 It's much easier to write in Conway Chained Arrow notation: a^^73600 Anyway, I assert that an aborted infinite loop still counts as an infinite loop. Pun-Pun can stop whenever he likes, so he doesn't have to go infinite if he doesn't want to. But he's still (rightly) disqualified.
psly4mne 02-19-06, 05:35 PM	It's much easier to write in Conway Chained Arrow notation: a^^73600 Anyway, I assert that an aborted infinite loop still counts as an infinite loop. Pun-Pun can stop whenever he likes, so he doesn't have to go infinite if he doesn't want to. But he's still (rightly) disqualified. First, thanks for reminding me of the notation. Will change. The infinite loop question was discussed earlier. If you don't like it, you don't like it. The difference between this and Pun-Pun is that Pun-Pun can always add a little more while staying finite, so he doesn't have a largest possible finite value. The Dirty Damage is the largest possible finite value for the combo - it could only be increased by going infinite.
Alorand 02-20-06, 12:34 AM	Not that I can't be bothered working it out myself, and there's probably enough damage done anyway, but don't objects only take quarter damage from cold before hardness? Not theat the damage done isn't enough already, but using cold damage might jeapordise the potential to destroy earth/toril. To put these numbers into perspective it is useful to remember that there are less then 10^100 particles in the known universe. This number surpasses that by such a large amount it is nearly incomprehensible. I wish I could draw any parallels to some real world example but this number dwarfs EVERYTHING. If you take every single large number that represents some real world thing, that has ever been written down, and you multiply it by every other large number and then take that to the power of itself it will still be so infinitesimally small when compared to THIS number as to be completely insignificant. If there was any way to convert points of damage into energy (say Joules) it would be enough to fill the known universe with the same conditions as existed 10^-64th of a second after the Big Bang. No particles could exist. This is probably enough damage to bring down the boundaries separating the planes - it would destroy the Multiverse. Good job LoP & Psly4mne! :clap:
synth 02-21-06, 12:38 AM	So there I was on the Dirty Trick #4 thread, trying to figure this out(when I should be writing a history paper), and I'm informed that you guys already have it taken care of? Just peachy. :P Well, maybe I'll do this as a mental exercise over winter break next week just to stay sharp. Anyways, nothing but praise, guys. I was wondering when us casters would snatch the title back from that darn hurler. ;) Oh, and once more, congrats on the number which is too big to even really mean anything. "You won the universe!" Or maybe broke it. This must be how a new universe is born... ready to be populated by Pun-Pun gods. Sheesh. P.S. Physics major here at the University of Michigan, honors program. Must be some kinda correlation.
HotSake 03-17-06, 10:49 PM	I don't know if this is still an issue, but you can get DR 1/- against the damage channeled through a Shield Other spell by using a pair of Rings of Shared Suffering. You just need to have the Least Mark of Sentinel from Eberron. Hope this helps.
psly4mne 03-18-06, 02:53 PM	Shield Other doesn't really help here, HotSake. Half damage (from the spell) is far too big a reduction. That is, if I am reading it correctly. Do you see a way to only reduce damage by 1 that I am missing? That Ring description confused me at first... Also, a piece of news... The Book of Exalted Deeds recently received errata. Guess what spell got a damage cap! Answer: None of them! Blood of the Martyr is still uncapped. The errata only removed references to Polymorph.
HotSake 03-19-06, 12:33 PM	Sorry, brainfart. I saw the DR 1/- and remembered something about trying to minimize feedback damping. Completely forgot about the whole "half damage" thing.
Diplominator 06-14-06, 01:35 AM	I beg your forgiveness for A) threadcromancy and B) what is I am sure an ignorant question, but I cannot for the life of me figure out why the initial damage must come from a spell. Surely in the interest of highest total damage it would be better to, say, have the hulking hurler crush someone with a rock (okay, a spiked moon). A heavily metamagicked spell is powerful, to be sure, but wouldn't you rather do quadrillions to begin with, not thousands? Plus, it has the added effect of working in another bit of CO madness, fitting the "now let's put it all together" theme of the original idea.
psly4mne 06-14-06, 10:35 AM	I used a spell for the seed because three high-level characters is the most you can get with Leadership and Undead Leadership, and I needed an Artificer, a Wizard and a Psion. Of course, I forgot about Dragon Cohort and Thrallherd. I also discarded the possibility of having one of the cohorts take Leadership. A Hulking Hurler would have to be a cohort, due to the high LA. That would mean it could only be 17th level. So yes, using a HH for the seed damage would help. I would do something like (off the top of my head): Bob: Human Egoist 20 (Leadership, Dragon Cohort, Undead Leadership) Bob's Cohort: <17-ECL HH build> Bob's Undead Cohort: Necropolitan Human Sorceror 5/Dracolexi 1/Incantatrix 6/Impure Prince 5 Bob's Dragon Cohort: Pseudodragon Artificer 13/Cleric 1/Chameleon 2
Squirrelloid 06-14-06, 03:19 PM	This made my day. My only question is: Bigger or smaller than G63?
psly4mne 06-14-06, 04:49 PM	This made my day.Yay! I'm glad to hear it. :D My only question is: Bigger or smaller than G63?Smaller. By a lot. But still big. To reach G63 damage, one would have to find a much faster feedback loop. For the new setup, I need a 17-ECL Hulking Hurler build and an estimate on its maximum damage. However, this will appear to barely affect the final damage of the feedback loop, due to the extreme crudeness of the approximation I used. Once I have the HH, maybe I will make a more precise approximation of the damage. Does anyone know what the best 17-ECL HH would be? Sweeping Strike and Area Attack are not needed.
angryman 06-24-06, 07:35 AM	You see a Kobold. As you cast spell of mathematical insanity, he casts Spell Turning. The kobold laughs.
Kresalak 06-24-06, 07:58 PM	What would this do to the final damage if used as the starter? According to the DMG, TNT does 2d6 per pound. The power Metamorphosis allows you to take the form of an inanimate object. It says you can take the shape of almost any simple object you can think of. If you can think of anti-osmium, you can turn into a cube of it. A colossal cube. According to the table for Big and Little Creatures in Combat, colossal creatures are 64 feet or bigger. Let's say 64 by 64. 4096 cubic feet of anti-osmium. Turning that into meters, which turns into energy released, which becomes equivalent in TNT, wich goes to damage, which becomes the average damage. Which is 9,340,900,000,000,000,000 damage.
psly4mne 06-27-06, 04:22 PM	What would this do to the final damage if used as the starter? I'd have to redo the calculation. The last calculation was an approximation based on the assumption that the initial damage was relatively small. One of these days, I will do it more precisely with the larger initial damage.
Diplominator 10-12-06, 11:29 PM	I'd have to redo the calculation. The last calculation was an approximation based on the assumption that the initial damage was relatively small. One of these days, I will do it more precisely with the larger initial damage. Any news? I am eager to see how nuts this gets, but I'm only in AP calculus.
Harkle 10-13-06, 12:20 AM	This made my day. My only question is: Bigger or smaller than G63? My question is what is g63? I Google it and got some stuff about a ship in the British navy. If you want to do really crazy stuff give all your cohorts leadership and get extra power from thier . Also there is a feat in Heroes of Battle, Improved Cohort, that lets you have a cohort that is only one level lower than you are. You might also consider having a Kobold as a cphort and take advantage of thier ability to gain epic feats before reaching epic levels that I've heard about, or simply make the base character a kobold. Multi-spell comes to mind when I think of this, 1 extra quickened spell a round might be useful. Spell Stowaway, and Improved Spell Capasity seem like they might also prove useful. Also since you are a wizrd you have a familiar you might also consider throwing into this equation as well. On the lines of the familiar somewhere I saw a person say Lament of the Master, from Heroes of Horror, is better than fate link, I don't know if it is better but it is specialized for familiars. Just some ideas to get some extra power from this build, also starting this with a Hurling Hulker would be very good for the final damage.
NoldorForce 10-13-06, 12:32 AM	G63 (actually G64 according to the article) is Graham's number (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham%27s_number). Something so big that (unlike the result we already have) it is too large to be easily expressed in various notations meant for very large numbers. Edit: Anything we should try calling this number beyond something to the effect of "the current record for damage that is finite"?
Harkle 10-13-06, 12:55 AM	Edit: Anything we should try calling this number beyond something to the effect of "the current record for damage that is finite"? How about "Current Non-Infinite Damage Record" it sounds a lot better than what you have and its clear and to the point.
The_Mad_Linguist 10-13-06, 07:03 AM	How about "Current Non-Infinite Damage Record" it sounds a lot better than what you have and its clear and to the point. "Current Finite Damage Record" would be even better!
Kresalak 10-13-06, 10:14 AM	I have a graphing calculator program that calculates the caster level for X castings of Consumptive Field/Greater Consumptive Field, but it only goes to an end value of 557. The program is: :40->X :For(I,[START]*,[END],1) :int(X*1.5)->X :X->L1(I) :End : [START] should always be 1. Now, the relevance is that the higher caster level I can get, the more damage you can get from PaO into anti-iridium, which can probably be fed into this for even more damage. The maximum number of castings of CF/GCF possible would also be useful. As for the TI-84's inability to handle numbers above the 557th iteration, if someone could write this in a different programming language (if possible C/C++, since I'm trying to learn that) that could be run on a computer, I could calculate the average damage from that (though I doubt my little spreadsheet could handle numbers as big as this looks to get). For reference, with [END] being 557, the caster level is 4.8178095078729*10^99 (call it N), the cubic feet of mass you turn to anti-iridium with PaO is that 100N, the cubic meters 30.48(N), the total kg of anti-iridium being 683,361.6(N), which we will call X. The energy release is 89,875,517,873,681,700(X), the equivalent TNT is 2.148076431*10^10(X), the d6 of damage is 9.471395779*10^10(X), and the average damage is 3.314988523*10^11(X), which is equal to 2.265335861*10^17(N). That's a big number. 1.09139566496512422000669*10^117 big. I'm bored, so I'll write that out. 1,091,395,664,965,124,220,006,690,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 And that's only the starting damage. *557 is gotten by buying lots and lots of staves. So instead of starting with an average of 1252.5, you start with 1.09139566496512422000669*10^117.
NoldorForce 10-13-06, 10:54 AM	Keep in mind that you'll need a mechanic for killing that many critters. Even with only CL ~100, however, the seed damage is notably higher. Microsoft Excel can do this very nicely, albeit with less precision. Still, it gives the same values for the first five significant figures.
Kresalak 10-13-06, 11:01 AM	Oh, right. Killing things. Googles of creatures are going to need to die for this to work. Would the Beastlands help?
Tempest Stormwind 10-13-06, 11:07 AM	Why not just pour your coffee down an anthill or something? I remember that coming up earlier...
Harkle 10-13-06, 11:13 AM	You guys do realize that that current damage calculations make the numbers you are coming up with on your calculators look really tiny, like comparing the solar system to a proton? Normal variables used by used even by C++ can't handle this. In my head I'm working out how to handle all the calculations 1 digit at a time and saving each digit out in scientific notaion, and probably would need to repeat this process for exponets as well since the exponets are likely to also be so large that the variables used by C++ can't handle them. Since I don't have C++ to work with I can't really test out any of my thought experiments. Also I'll probably also need to develop a method of clearing old unnesicary data from the memory after each step just to avoid crashing the progam and possibly the computer.
NoldorForce 10-13-06, 11:27 AM	Remember how the previous "final result" was expressed in Conway chained arrow notation? That was a consequence of the fact that regular methods of calculation and scientific notation are inadequate for the task. Proof will get you farther...sort of like with the Ackermann function I'd mentioned on the first page. Solar system vs. proton? No...the difference between the resultant value and the previous value is more along the lines of "probability that the sky is blue" vs. "probability that you'll spontaneously cease to exist". The difference is even more extreme than that, but you get the idea.
Harkle 10-13-06, 12:05 PM	Remember how the previous "final result" was expressed in Conway chained arrow notation? That was a consequence of the fact that regular methods of calculation and scientific notation are inadequate for the task. Proof will get you farther...sort of like with the Ackermann function I'd mentioned on the first page. Solar system vs. proton? No...the difference between the resultant value and the previous value is more along the lines of "probability that the sky is blue" vs. "probability that you'll spontaneously cease to exist". The difference is even more extreme than that, but you get the idea. I was going to go Bigger than solar system, but I'm very bad at such judgement calls so i desided to be on the conservative side. So now the comparasion I'll us is a scale of The Universe vs. A Proton, this is still probably to small, but it puts things into perspective for people.
Kresalak 10-13-06, 12:17 PM	Why not just pour your coffee down an anthill or something? I remember that coming up earlier... Note that I'm getting a caster level of somewhere around 10^117, and since each death contributes only 1 CL, I need well over a google deaths. Ants won't cut it. However, since it doesn't matter if earlier castings run out, and eventually you're getting to the point where you'll never run out in your lifetime, you could just go to any infinite plane with a lot of ants and keep doing this until you get the desired number.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 10-13-06, 01:22 PM	IIRC, the CL yield on G CF + CF is almost linear... that's not a very attractive way to increase CL. Worse yet, it's not approved by CustServ (for what that's worth here). CustServ rules that the spell only modifies the unaltered caster level -- so it's hard capped at 3/2*Original CL.
Kresalak 10-13-06, 02:52 PM	If it's hard capped at 1.5*OCL, then all this is shot to hell. However, if it isn't, each one would work of the last, increasing the CL by 50%; i.e. multiplying it by 1.5, hence int(X*1.5). This increase get's really big in a moderate amount of time; after only 557 total castings (the highest my calculator can handle) you get ~4.8*10^99. Granted, 557 is a lot of castings, but it's easily attainable by spending most of your money on staves. Now, since I tend to trust CustServ's rulings unless they're nonsensical, I'll assume for now that it's capped. So what other methods are there of getting a really high CL? With Red Wizard+Orange Ioun Stone+Death Knell+Ring of Arcane Mastery is 43, *1.5 for CF (cast through whatever) gives you a nice 64. That's still a bit over 10^19 damage. Pitty the Word doesn't work.
The_Mad_Linguist 10-13-06, 05:29 PM	Why not use anti-neutronium instead? It has a density of 10^15 g/cm³ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_star), which is a lot higher than what we're currently using. If we could get a hulking hurler to throw it somehow, that would be even better.
Kresalak 10-13-06, 06:31 PM	Ironically, I wrote a bunch (more than 2, at least) of papers on neutron stars in school. Should have thought of that. The density is 8*10^13 to 2*10^15, but PaO can choose from any. So with the base of 2*10^15, we get... 1.29332*10^33 damage. Pathetic compared to what would happen if CF and GCF worked like I thought, but such is life. So should we finalize this and try to calculate the final product?
Harkle 10-13-06, 06:43 PM	The problem with the exotic materials exploding is there are no actually rules for them, the closest thing is a D20 Modern definition of TNT. I think for the purposes of making this work you would need to stick with clearly defined D&D rules. The Hurling Hulker works because exotic materials are only used to describe what he could possibly be throwing. The damage is still calculated based on the mass of what he is throwing not the actual material.
Kresalak 10-14-06, 12:31 AM	TNT does 2d6 damage per pound, so if you figure out the equivalent energy release in kg of TNT, then convert that to pounds, you have your damage. I have a spreadsheet that does that, by the way.
NoldorForce 10-14-06, 12:58 PM	For the record, the DMG has dynamite, but the damage/mass ratio is somewhat fuzzy.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 10-14-06, 04:43 PM	If it's hard capped at 1.5*OCL, then all this is shot to hell. However, if it isn't, each one would work of the last, increasing the CL by 50%; i.e. multiplying it by 1.5, hence int(X*1.5). This increase get's really big in a moderate amount of time; after only 557 total castings (the highest my calculator can handle) you get ~4.8*10^99. Granted, 557 is a lot of castings, but it's easily attainable by spending most of your money on staves. Now, since I tend to trust CustServ's rulings unless they're nonsensical, I'll assume for now that it's capped. So what other methods are there of getting a really high CL? With Red Wizard+Orange Ioun Stone+Death Knell+Ring of Arcane Mastery is 43, *1.5 for CF (cast through whatever) gives you a nice 64. That's still a bit over 10^19 damage. Pitty the Word doesn't work. That's not quite how it works. I wish I could find the thread where I ponder through this same question... unfortunately that thread was locked. *ahem* Make sure you think real hard about stacking rules. unnamed bonuses from the same source do not stack, so you get some telescoping effects. The last time I computed it, it turned out to be somewhat linear (rather than CL*1.5^x) There's only one good CL bumping thing that I can think of at the moment and that's the epic PrC cosmic descryer.
psly4mne 10-14-06, 05:34 PM	That's not quite how it works. I wish I could find the thread where I ponder through this same question... unfortunately that thread was locked. *ahem* Make sure you think real hard about stacking rules. unnamed bonuses from the same source do not stack, so you get some telescoping effects. The last time I computed it, it turned out to be somewhat linear (rather than CL*1.5^x)It ends up being: CL(after n CFs) = (2-2^(-n))*CL(original), possibly off by 1 due to rounding. Unless you go with CustServ's latest ad hoc modification of the rules
Tleilaxu_Ghola 10-14-06, 06:02 PM	It ends up being: CL(after n CFs) = (2-2^(-n))*CL(original), possibly off by 1 due to rounding. Unless you go with CustServ's latest ad hoc modification of the rules Wait... that's not how I recall it. In the case that n->infinity your equation would give just a doubling of the original CL. Are you just considering the use of CF only (not CF and GCF?) EDIT: I found the thread. Start at CL 20 CF 1: (3/2)*20 = 30, Bonus = +10 above 20 CF 2: (3/2)*30 = 45, Bonus = +15 above 30, does not stack with original +10, so total is 35 CF 3: (3/2)*35 = 52, Bonus = +17 above 35, does not stack with original +15, so net is 37 CF 4: (3/2)*37 = 55, Bonus = +18 above 37, does not stack with original +17, so net is 38 CF 5: (3/2)*38 = 57, Bonus = +19 above 38, does not stack with original +18, so net is 39 CF 6: (3/2)*39 = 58, Bonus = +19 above 58, does not stack with original +19, so net is still 39 Here's where the loop stops. It is a decaying series and the decay is excaserbated by the rounding down rule. I haven't devised a series for this pattern, but it's likely that even with the rounding rule removed it would converge. Anyways, but there is a fix I think: CF 1: (3/2)*20 = 30, Bonus = +10 above 20, so total is 30 (20 + 10) GCF 1: (3/2)*30 = 45, Bonus = +15 above 30, stacks with original +10 from CF1, so total is 45 (20 + 10 + 15) CF 2: (3/2)*45 = 67, Bonus = +22 above 45, does not stack with original +10 from CF 1, so net is 57 (20 + 15 + 10_ GCF 2: (3/2)*57 = 85, Bonus = +28 above 57, does not stack with original +15 from GCF 1, so net is 70 (20 + 22 + 28) CF 3: (3/2)*70 = 105, Bonus = +35 above 70, does not stack with original +22 from CF 2, so net is 83 (20 +35 + 28) GCF 3: (3/2)*83 = 124, Bonus = +41 above 83, does not stack with original +28 from GCF 2, so net is 96 (41 + 35 + 20) You'll notice that the bonus on the greater consumptive field (GCF) goes up as: 15, 28, 41 (the gaps between which are 13 and 13) The bonus of Consumptive field (CF) goes up as: 10, 22, 35 (the gaps between which are 12 and 13) I could go further, but I think it should be apparent that each time you cast the same version of the spell once more (provided you alternate between the two versions) it goes up by a non-decaying amount. This proves that the loop is infinite. Now then, it also shows that getting to 1440 CL will take a considerably more amount of effort than I originally surmised. Thank goodness for LoP's endless spell trick, eh? So yeah. It would appear that psly4mne's equation describes case 1 that I presented. My "fix" is uncapped -- and just by looking at the pattern appears to be linear with perhaps a little quadratic curvature (to a second order approximation).
royard 02-09-07, 11:10 PM	...I am not trying to bump this, and it is mathmatical genius to get this, but: Body Outside Body ...Blah blah blah...dublicates...They carry the same arms...magical gear), and they cannot cast spells or use any spell completion or spell trigger items. ...Just how did we get around this? In my understanding, it defeats "The clone takes the second staff, infuses it with Power Surge, and clones himself. " Also, just saying, the fact that fission cannot be used in combo with fusion means "no tricks like this" to me, but this is just a personal opinion. BTW, I am a Electrical Engineering major. I sense a correlation...which makes me sad.
psly4mne 02-10-07, 12:09 PM	...I am not trying to bump this, and it is mathmatical genius to get this, but: Body Outside Body ...Blah blah blah...dublicates...They carry the same arms...magical gear), and they cannot cast spells or use any spell completion or spell trigger items. ...Just how did we get around this? In my understanding, it defeats "The clone takes the second staff, infuses it with Power Surge, and clones himself. "For some reason, this was never brought up. Or, if it was, I don't remember it. Anyway, I am pretty sure there is a way around it, but I am still working out the details. Also, just saying, the fact that fission cannot be used in combo with fusion means "no tricks like this" to me, but this is just a personal opinion.As you probably recognize, this is specific to Fission.
ZeroAvatar 02-13-07, 11:56 AM	I was just thinking about using the damage/masochism/etc. combo to have the Hulking Hurler ... throw the universe, but the mass of the universe is significantly lower than the actual number we're generating here. What he can do is supply enough energy to the universe by punching the air in front of him. Just a thought.
Psionx 02-21-07, 07:36 PM	Just out of random curiosity... how many of y'all are physics majors? I think we may be able to draw a correlation between physics/com-sci and D&D. I'm a physics/math major so I at least have one half of that combo... Anyways, just thought I'd ask that... it seems we have revealed a couple physics majors on this thread already. Yep, I want to be a physics major, but I have to try a lot harder academically. Other than that, if there was some way to remove the power point cap completely... Inf pp and w/e. However, you didn't say the damage had to be done to any specific target so: Manifest Fission Manifest Affinity Field Duplicate Manifests Affinity Field Prick your thumb *Boom* BTW folks, thats not limitless, thats infinite. Hell, if you are close enuf to an enemy... he takes it too.
psly4mne 02-21-07, 08:25 PM	For some reason, this was never brought up. Or, if it was, I don't remember it. Anyway, I am pretty sure there is a way around it, but I am still working out the details. OK, there are both Fission clones and BOB clones. The Fission clones power the staves. The BOB clones do the psionic stuff; the Fission clones do the non-psionic stuff. I won't go into the details. To be honest, I can't remember the details - the last revision of this was 368 days ago - but I'm pretty sure it all works out.
Deedlit 03-12-07, 07:48 AM	I just ran into this thread, but I don't see how the combo works. Blood of the Martyr allows you to transfer some number of your hit points from yourself to another creature. That can't exceed however many hit points you have. My other objection to the combo is the interpretation of how damage-sharing works. The way I see it, if a group of creatures are connected via fate links or affinity fields, whenever one creature would take X damage, they all take X damage instead. There's no "bouncing" of damage back and forth like that required for this combo. I suppose it's just a matter of interpretation, but the problem with psyl4mne's interpretation is that a single affinity field and 1 point of damage leads to everyone taking infinite damage, which seems unreasonable to say the least!
Aegeu 03-13-07, 03:33 PM	No, it works because the linking abilities don't all happen at the same time, they happen one after another. For example, the Fate Link Triangle goes like this: Player 1 takes 1 damage, dealing 1 point to Player 2 Player 2 has taken 1 point of damage, dealing 1 point to Player 3. Player 3 has taken 1 point of damage, dealing 1 point to Player 1. P1 has taken another point of damage, which is passed on to P2. Note that the point of damage he has recieved this time is distinct from the point of damage used to start the loop, so the loop continues propagating. P.S. Just becasue some interpretation is "unreasonable" doesn't mean it doesn't work. After all, this is the TO boards.
Deedlit 03-14-07, 12:51 AM	But why is the damage distinct? At what point does the damage become distinct? Player 1 takes 1 damage, dealing 1 point to Player 2 Is the damage that Player 2 takes different from the one that Player 1 takes? If so, there's no need for a triangle; any Fate Link or Affinity Field immediately leads to infinite damage for everyone involved! Player 2 has taken 1 point of damage, dealing 1 point to Player 3. Obviously, if the first two damages were the same, then these are as well. (And if they weren't, then we don't need the other two fate links.) Player 3 has taken 1 point of damage, dealing 1 point to Player 1. Again, these must be the same. So we never get a distinct source of damage. So either the fate link triangle doesn't work, or we don't need a triangle, just two people and one fate link. P.S. Just becasue some interpretation is "unreasonable" doesn't mean it doesn't work. After all, this is the TO boards. Yeah, but most of the tricks here involve individual abilities that can be used by themselves without anything crazy happening. Here we have a crazy setup that leads to a large, finite amount of damage - using a spell that creates infinite damage, with no setup whatsoever! It kinda spoils the trick. Anyway, any answer for Blood of the Martyr? That's the bigger problem, since I don't see any interpretation that would make that work.
psly4mne 03-14-07, 01:01 AM	But why is the damage distinct? At what point does the damage become distinct?What does that even mean? Damage is a quantity, not an object. Player 1 takes 1 damage, dealing 1 point to Player 2 Is the damage that Player 2 takes different from the one that Player 1 takes? If so, there's no need for a triangle; any Fate Link or Affinity Field immediately leads to infinite damage for everyone involved! Player 2 has taken 1 point of damage, dealing 1 point to Player 3. Obviously, if the first two damages were the same, then these are as well. (And if they weren't, then we don't need the other two fate links.) Player 3 has taken 1 point of damage, dealing 1 point to Player 1. Again, these must be the same. So we never get a distinct source of damage. So either the fate link triangle doesn't work, or we don't need a triangle, just two people and one fate link. Yeah, but most of the tricks here involve individual abilities that can be used by themselves without anything crazy happening. Here we have a crazy setup that leads to a large, finite amount of damage - using a spell that creates infinite damage, with no setup whatsoever! It kinda spoils the trick.Actually, it would require three Fate Links in a triangle between three participants, since a Fate Link does not trigger itself. Anyway, any answer for Blood of the Martyr? That's the bigger problem, since I don't see any interpretation that would make that work.I'm looking into that.
Deedlit 03-14-07, 02:10 AM	What does that even mean? Damage is a quantity, not an object. I guess Aegeu would be the one to answer that, since he brought up the term; but what I think he meant is the following: If Player A and Player B are connected by a Fate Link, and A takes 1 damage, then so does B. The 1 damage that B takes does not cause A to take one damage, since the damage to B is the same damage that A already took. If B now took a damage from a different source, then A would take damage, because now the damage B is taking is different from the damage that A took. What Aegeu tried to argue is that, by going through three Fate Links, the damage is now different, and so the second scenario applies. I'm saying that doesn't make sense; if Fate Links do not create new damage, then it doesn't matter how many Fate Links there are, all the damages being taken represent the same damage that A took, and so A won't take it again. Actually, it would require three Fate Links in a triangle between three participants, since a Fate Link does not trigger itself. Under my interpretation, it would not; under your interpretation, I don't see why it wouldn't. The only reason I can see for it not triggering itself is "Fate Link obviously wasn't meant to work like that", but I think we're rejecting such arguments. If we aren't, then the obvious solution would be to use my interpretation, rather than add an ad hoc rule that eliminates some abuse but leaves others intact. Note that if the ad hoc rule is just "a Fate Link does not trigger itself", then you only need two Fate Links between two people. So we need the rule to be "damage cannot bounce back unless it bounces to someone else first". But that seems just as ad hoc, and certainly isn't written anywhere!
HotSake 03-14-07, 08:50 AM	Each point of damage comes from a different source; that's what makes them distinct. Player A's initial point might be from a dagger. Player B's damage comes from Player A's Fate Link. C's comes from B's, and A's comes from C's, which kicks off another round. They don't all "represent" the same dagger thrust ("represent" has no meaning in the rules anyway). The Fate Links are doing the damage, not the dagger. The only person who was damaged by the dagger was Player A, and only for one point.
Aegeu 03-14-07, 04:29 PM	What does [distinct] even mean? Damage is a quantity, not an object. My bad. I was trying to point out that the damage comes from a different source each time, as HotSake said.
The_Mad_Linguist 06-20-07, 09:31 PM	What result do we get if we plug in chuck (from the CO speed record thread) as the base damage?
psly4mne 06-22-07, 01:49 AM	The number I posted for the damage was a very rough approximation (read: an extremely loose lower bound), and did not take the amount of the seed damage into account. With large seed damage, you would probably want a better approximation.
Psionx 06-28-07, 02:40 PM	Note that I'm getting a caster level of somewhere around 10^117, and since each death contributes only 1 CL, I need well over a google deaths. Ants won't cut it. However, since it doesn't matter if earlier castings run out, and eventually you're getting to the point where you'll never run out in your lifetime, you could just go to any infinite plane with a lot of ants and keep doing this until you get the desired number. Wait, living things? Can't cells count as living things? How many cells make up an ant? Or you could make alot of plants and burn them.
NoldorForce 06-28-07, 10:25 PM	Do we mind using an infinite Vivacious creature trick? Or are all infinite loops out of bounds here?
Yadot 08-25-07, 03:09 AM	Do we mind using an infinite Vivacious creature trick? Or are all infinite loops out of bounds here? If we're going for the largest finite loop, then all infinite loops probably are out of bounds.
Austin_SJ 11-20-07, 12:37 AM	Can I just ask, do you play D and D or just use it for crazy math(s) stuff? I did math(s) up until A-level and I barely understand how much damage is being caused, I take it it is incomprehensibly large. Also is there any chance you have found something likes this that works with money i.e I put one $ in a bank account and it becomes a very large finite number. ;)
Lilt 11-20-07, 03:20 AM	Can I just ask, do you play D and D or just use it for crazy math(s) stuff? I did math(s) up until A-level and I barely understand how much damage is being caused, I take it it is incomprehensibly large. Also is there any chance you have found something likes this that works with money i.e I put one $ in a bank account and it becomes a very large finite number. ;)Nah. Life's DM is a mean jerk, he never lets us have any fun. As soon as you find an infinite loop, he cracks down and stops it from working before the press conference (Orbo, anyone?). Progress is really slow, I can't remember the last time I went up a level, and combat is pretty deadly. Here's a tip, don't even ask for the people at the local church to resurrect your dead friend too. Seems you have to be the son of god or something to get Rez'd, which stinks of 'NPC-only'. I mean, couldn't he just make another 'Jesus'? I mean, I've met lots of NPCs with the same name before, lots of Daves and Sallys... Why did he have to use, like, the only Resurrection spell on an NPC? I bet he never even lost a level. Oh, and don't get me started on the playable races. Were cat-people too much to ask for? *sigh* I eventually quit and switched to my mate Jonathan's game a few years ago. He doesn't allow many infinite loops either, but at-least he allows the Abjurant Champion.
awaken_D_M_golem 11-20-07, 04:11 PM	I take it, it is incomprehensibly large. (1) ........ Big Number (~1.8) ... Biggest non-infinite # known to non D&D players (~1.9) ... This # (2) ........ Infinite (aleph zero) psly4mne - get's no more credit from the world at large for coming up with this # , { ... insert SAT comparative ... } as I get from the CO-board, for using one of psly4mne's ideas, and some other stuff, to beat pun-pun. Yea, though Lilt be perplexed, thine gawd of the far realms of insanity (earth) and thine gawd of the D&D of the Third and a Half Covenant, verily, when the Goths - the real ones - doth broke the reign of the Roman legion, an oecumenical council was conviened, to address the base heresy of Monothelitism. Therein (or is it wherefore - meh) the CoDzillas of Monothelitism claimed, to their debased nature, that the Pneuma could only possess 60 mortals at a time, in concordance with The Book of Epic, the legalism of the D&D of the Third but not a Half Covenant. If this error is not obvious to the hearer, the hearer is also in the error. Allelujah - where's the Tylenol ?!
Soluphobe 11-20-07, 07:12 PM	(1) ........ Big Number (~1.8) ... Biggest non-infinite # known to non D&D players (~1.9) ... This # (2) ........ Infinite (aleph zero) psly4mne - get's no more credit from the world at large for coming up with this # , { ... insert SAT comparative ... } as I get from the CO-board, for using one of psly4mne's ideas, and some other stuff, to beat pun-pun. Yea, though Lilt be perplexed, thine gawd of the far realms of insanity (earth) and thine gawd of the D&D of the Third and a Half Covenant, verily, when the Goths - the real ones - doth broke the reign of the Roman legion, an oecumenical council was conviened, to address the base heresy of Monothelitism. Therein (or is it wherefore - meh) the CoDzillas of Monothelitism claimed, to their debased nature, that the Pneuma could only possess 60 mortals at a time, in concordance with The Book of Epic, the legalism of the D&D of the Third but not a Half Covenant. If this error is not obvious to the hearer, the hearer is also in the error. Allelujah - where's the Tylenol ?! Dude, Tylenol is 3E. Now we just use Diamond Mind maneuvers.
AncientDragon 02-07-08, 11:17 AM	So, I'm here to discover if this is really a World Record. 1)Is this a broken loop? It seems to be... 2)This trick involves the use of 3 character right? So it takes much more than 190XP.
BetaSquirrell 02-07-08, 06:48 PM	As far as I see it, you don't actually need three characters. You get the extra people by cloning yourself an insane number of times. So you don't need more people. And yes, it is a broken infinite loop. Every iteration of this loop produces an insane amount of damage, which is then fed back through the loop except that one of the clones has a feat (Mental Dampener or something from XPH) that slightly reduces the damage. It goes through the loop again, produces (insane-3) damage, then goes again and again and again... If one of the clones hadn't retrained out for the feat, it would be infinite, but as it is there is a finite (but stupidly large) end to the record. As I see it, more damage could actually be done by increasing the beginning damage (say, a Mental Pinnacle'd power doing a couple hundred d6 anyway), but that's besides the point.
AncientDragon 02-08-08, 12:04 PM	Ok so isn't infinite and that's OK. But the clonation is of the three characters fused. Does this trick NEED that three characters or not?
awaken_D_M_golem 02-08-08, 03:53 PM	Yes. It is capped by both the number of times we can cast Body Outside Body within the strictures of the assorted durations involved in the combination as well as the number of castings available in a day at all. This combination is way more than a slightly-disrupted infinite loop. It is a rather devious mechanism for both multiplying the output of a spell, producing feedback reverberations, and damping those reverberations such that the combination is absolutely finite, just outrageously large. A primary difference between the manipulate-form/Pun-Pun combination and this Nasty Damage Combo is that the Nasty Damage combo is constrained by a wide variety of resource-limitations which make maximization within those bounds a real challenge. This isn't "Nigh-Infinite," this is "Really Fawking Huge." I would like to echo psly4mne's call for a programmer or mathematician with the guts and know-how to solve the damage equation. Numerical advantage is a primary feature of character optimization, and I wouldn't want it to be thought that the CO boards can't even figure out the amount of numerical advantage for a premier combo with discrete variables. Yep. It's not an infinite loop, so much as it's a semi-infinite-looping, to get a non-infinite number. The top Char. is 20th level, and the other two are Cohorts.
BetaSquirrell 02-09-08, 10:33 AM	Did we ever get that Programmer? I might have a run at it if I can find the most recent form of the variables.
Tshern 02-09-08, 12:41 PM	I mean, couldn't he just make another 'Jesus'? Heard there's a ton of guys of that name in Puerto Rico.
AncientDragon 02-24-08, 03:19 AM	Sorry, a doubt: Cecil is the cohort of who? Of Bee? But Bee has ECL 17, how can Cecil have the same?
SquashMonster 03-03-08, 11:50 PM	Ok so isn't infinite and that's OK. But the clonation is of the three characters fused. Does this trick NEED that three characters or not?It was crammed into the space of three characters because that's the number of characters you can get using Leadership and Undead Leadership together. I have a question of my own about this combo, though. If I understand correctly, we have a combo that takes an amount of damage and turns it into a much larger amount of damage. We also seem to be looking for a suitably large initial amount of damage. So, theoretically, we could take two of this, and use one as the damage source for the other. If only the build had some way of cloning himself to produce greater damage. Oh, wait. If we segmented the clone population into two discrete groups, such that damage did not float around between each of these groups, and one of the second group was the target of the initial group's damage, would the gain from performing the entire combo twice outweigh the loss from halving the number of clones? If so, what is the optimal number of segments to group it into? EDIT: If we cast Persistant Masochism on a damage-immune character and make that character the target of this spell, and we set up the combo in a way that leaves enough people standing to start it up again, can't we run this whole thing a second step, using 1/10 the damage from Masochism?
Callix 03-04-08, 11:52 PM	It was crammed into the space of three characters because that's the number of characters you can get using Leadership and Undead Leadership together. I have a question of my own about this combo, though. If I understand correctly, we have a combo that takes an amount of damage and turns it into a much larger amount of damage. We also seem to be looking for a suitably large initial amount of damage. So, theoretically, we could take two of this, and use one as the damage source for the other. If only the build had some way of cloning himself to produce greater damage. Oh, wait. If we segmented the clone population into two discrete groups, such that damage did not float around between each of these groups, and one of the second group was the target of the initial group's damage, would the gain from performing the entire combo twice outweigh the loss from halving the number of clones? If so, what is the optimal number of segments to group it into? EDIT: If we cast Persistant Masochism on a damage-immune character and make that character the target of this spell, and we set up the combo in a way that leaves enough people standing to start it up again, can't we run this whole thing a second step, using 1/10 the damage from Masochism? 1. Since this trick relies on an Affinity Field loop (albeit not an infinite one), the trick can only take place over a 30ft area. However, there can't be much more feedback before this whole thing blows up to infinity, and the damage is dealt in small increments, not in one lump sum. 2. Damage immunity will stop Masochism from working. Delay Death, on the other hand, works fine. Even so, most physical attacks won't deal more input damage, and we don't really have room to add an ubercharger cohort. Still, it's nice to see new ideas for this.
Solaria 03-08-08, 11:09 PM	Dual Comp-Sci/Math major. I'm one of those annoying super-freshmen. :D A connection between math/cs/physics and character optimization wouldn't be too surprising, IMHO. You need a certain mindset to want to crunch numbers or sort through hundreds of pages of material for synergistic combinations. As for DnD in general, who knows? More of the people I am playing with now are psych/sociology/political science majors than math/cs/physics. Good to know that some people at least realize that D&D is about the interaction, not blowing up the world.
SquashMonster 03-09-08, 03:00 AM	Good to know that some people at least realize that D&D is about the interaction, not blowing up the world.Honestly, I think D&D is the only way to get both of them in bulk. Or at least the only healthy way.
awaken_D_M_golem 08-12-08, 07:58 PM	bump --- and don't forget to look for the largest number ever invented, that isn't infinite ---
Endarire 09-09-08, 01:04 AM	Bring up this thread! (BUTT!)