+1 to class features classes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

+1 to class features classes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rutibex
09-18-05, 11:09 PM I was looking through Weapons of Legacy and I saw something intresting, the Champion of Legacy class give out +1 to existing class features (not just spell levels). What I want to know is if there are any more of these classes, I only need one.

Think: Class A gives +1 to class features of Class B. One of Class Bs class features is +1 to another classes features, which is then put into class A. This creates a feedback loop that allows all class features to be gained in a single level, up until a level that doesn't give +1 class features.
PhoenixInferno
09-18-05, 11:14 PM Legacy Champion is the first time I've ever heard of +1 to Class Features mechanic.
karthos
09-19-05, 10:52 AM Sounds more like a chain then a loop, using your scenario Class A would grant you the features of class B for that level, class B would grant you the features of class A for that level (which you already have) and you wind up with essentially nothing.
Zemyla
09-19-05, 05:55 PM The only class I've seen like this is the Atavist (RoE), which advances both monk damage and soulknife enhancement.
Rutibex
09-19-05, 07:34 PM Sounds more like a chain then a loop, using your scenario Class A would grant you the features of class B for that level, class B would grant you the features of class A for that level (which you already have) and you wind up with essentially nothing.

No, don't you see? It gives out +1 to class features, it so you would gain another effective level in respect to your previous classes features (just like +1 caster level).

Think of it in sequance. You have two classes, A and B. Both have the class feature "+1 class features". We'll start off with a level in both: A1/B1. What happens when you get level 3? You advance class A, which allows you to advance the features of another class, you choose B (your only choice, but under normal cercomstances you would also have another class because both would be prestege classes). Now your class features are at A2/B2. But there is another step! Class Bs features include "+1 to another classes features" as well, so you have to assign it, and your only choice is class A. Now you features are at A3/B2. This will continue until you dump the +1 into a class that doesn't give out another +1.
Caelic
09-19-05, 08:08 PM ...except that there's nothing to suggest that you apply the benefits over and over again in sequence.

Class A gives the features of one level of class B; class B gives the features of one level of class A. They give those benefits simultaneously, because there's nothing anywhere in the rules to suggest that class benefits are assigned one after the other.
Rutibex
09-19-05, 09:32 PM ...except that there's nothing to suggest that you apply the benefits over and over again in sequence.

Class A gives the features of one level of class B; class B gives the features of one level of class A. They give those benefits simultaneously, because there's nothing anywhere in the rules to suggest that class benefits are assigned one after the other.

You don't gain anything simultaneously, the entire process of leveling is sequential. Look at page 58 of the PHB, it has the sequance. It needs to be done this way because many steps involve making decisions that could effect the options you have further along.

For example: Feats must be chosen before you gain new spells. This means that if you want to pick up a feat that requires you to cast 6th level spells and your new level grants you access to 6th levels spells you don't qualify for it because you don't have 6th level spells until after the feat selection step.
Yellowsnow6967
09-19-05, 09:47 PM You don't gain anything simultaneously, the entire process of leveling is sequential. Look at page 58 of the PHB, it has the sequance. It needs to be done this way because many steps involve making decisions that could effect the options you have further along.

For example: Feats must be chosen before you gain new spells. This means that if you want to pick up a feat that requires you to cast 6th level spells and your new level grants you access to 6th levels spells you don't qualify for it because you don't have 6th level spells until after the feat selection step.

The +1 to class features is to a class that u have already had in past lvls, and because Class A gives u the ability for Class B's +1 to Class Features all that is giving u is another lvl of somehting else that u had already in previous lvls, it doesn;t mean that u keep advancing in that class.

Now I don't know if i am right here but it works almost the exact same way as a +1 of Existing Spellcaster levels where u have to have at least one base class of this spellcaster (usually u have it for a Requirement).

Double check ur info
slade_caizer
09-19-05, 09:58 PM And what do you do when you, say, take levels of Eldritch Knight and try to apply the +1 level of arcane casting class from that to previous levels of Knight Phantom. Do you also get an infinite caster level boost? (I don't think so. :nonono: )

Please. Wait for the weed to wear off and don't mix medications. It's unhealthy. ;)
dylanarena
09-19-05, 11:23 PM And what do you do when you, say, take levels of Eldritch Knight and try to apply the +1 level of arcane casting class from that to previous levels of Knight Phantom. Do you also get an infinite caster level boost? (I don't think so. :nonono: )

Please. Wait for the weed to wear off and don't mix medications. It's unhealthy. ;)

Doesn't Eldritch Knight only give +1 to effective caster level? If so, it wouldn't give any other class features of Knight Phantom.

What our friend Rutibex is saying seems to be that the benefit of this one Champion of Legacy class (i.e., +1 to all class features instead of just effective caster level) is fundamentally different from all previous instances of "gain +1 to blahblahblah."

I'm not saying he's right, just trying to clarify because I don't think your counter-example really fits his model.

I could, however, just be misunderstanding everything in this thread. :)
Rutibex
09-20-05, 12:06 AM And what do you do when you, say, take levels of Eldritch Knight and try to apply the +1 level of arcane casting class from that to previous levels of Knight Phantom. Do you also get an infinite caster level boost? (I don't think so. :nonono: )

Please. Wait for the weed to wear off and don't mix medications. It's unhealthy. ;)

No no no, you don't understand! Eldritch Knight and Knight Phantom (I'm guessing, I've never heard of it) arn't arcane casting classes! Arcane casters are classes that grant actual spells, not pluses.

I can't see why you people don't understand this concept, I thought you guys knew the rules inside and out. This works, assuming I can find another class that has the same feature as the Champion of Legacy.
slade_caizer
09-20-05, 01:30 AM It was an analogy. Apparently it wasn't similar enough for people not to whine.

Anyway, it's not that we don't understand the concept. It's that we think the 'infinite loop' in this scenario is complete and utter B***S***. The main reason I feel so would be the ease of triggering and lack of supporting logic behind it. This also seems to be the largest part of others dislike of it, but I could be misunderstanding them.

Any player that proposed to me they could take one level of a class and gain every (or most) feature(s) of another (or both for that matter) would be sitting out that session for their massive dose of stupidity.
Mistwell
09-20-05, 01:36 AM Does it says you gain +1 abilities from ALL classes you have, rather than just one particular class?
colm_l
09-20-05, 06:37 AM I can't see why you people don't understand this concept, I thought you guys knew the rules inside and out.

We do. Oh yea of little faith...

This works, assuming I can find another class that has the same feature as the Champion of Legacy.

It doesn't - now I'll spell out why.

You have wizard 5 (for an example)
6) class(a) 1 - choose Wizard as the class to add features from. (wiz 6)
7.) class(b) 1 - choose class(a) as the class to add features from.

In choosing class (a) you get a "+1 to class features of class" feature from class(a) 2.

However, here is the place your logic stops working - If you use this to boost Wizard - your loop ends.

If you don't use it to boost wizard & instead use it to boost class(b) to get another "+1 to class features of class" feaure, your wizard class features don't increase because the feature doesn't add the class feaature progression to legacy champion -just the one off feature.

In order to gain any additional class features from wizard you'll need to find a PRC that gives "+1 to any two sets of class features".
Rutibex
09-20-05, 07:17 AM It was an analogy. Apparently it wasn't similar enough for people not to whine.

Anyway, it's not that we don't understand the concept. It's that we think the 'infinite loop' in this scenario is complete and utter B***S***. The main reason I feel so would be the ease of triggering and lack of supporting logic behind it. This also seems to be the largest part of others dislike of it, but I could be misunderstanding them.

Any player that proposed to me they could take one level of a class and gain every (or most) feature(s) of another (or both for that matter) would be sitting out that session for their massive dose of stupidity.

It's not like I'm saying you should tell you DM that you're doing this, that's just foolish. No DM would allow any of the ultra game breaking builds on this board, but that never stopped them from being made.

We do. Oh yea of little faith...

It doesn't - now I'll spell out why.

You have wizard 5 (for an example)
6) class(a) 1 - choose Wizard as the class to add features from. (wiz 6)
7.) class(b) 1 - choose class(a) as the class to add features from.

In choosing class (a) you get a "+1 to class features of class" feature from class(a) 2.

However, here is the place your logic stops working - If you use this to boost Wizard - your loop ends.

If you don't use it to boost wizard & instead use it to boost class(b) to get another "+1 to class features of class" feaure, your wizard class features don't increase because the feature doesn't add the class feaature progression to legacy champion -just the one off feature.

In order to gain any additional class features from wizard you'll need to find a PRC that gives "+1 to any two sets of class features".

I already said this, the loop ends when you get to a level that doesn't have "+1 class features", so a level of Wizard or one of the levels of Legacy Champion that doesn't have it.

My point was not to advance the class features of Wizard, that's impossable. What I want to do is gain all the class features of Legacy Champion and class B.
slade_caizer
09-20-05, 07:21 AM It's not like a saying you should tell you DM that you're doing this, that's just foolish. No DM would allow any of the ultra game breaking builds on this board, but that never stopped them from being made.

I already said this, the loop ends when you get to a level that doesn't have "+1 class features", so a level of Wizard or one of the levels of Legacy Champion that doesn't have it.

My point was not to advance the class features of Wizard, that's impossable. What I want to do is gain all the class features of Legacy Champion and class B.Have you thought of a way to do that yet? :cool:

(Nicely explained, Colm.)
X-Codes
09-20-05, 07:24 AM It doesn't - now I'll spell out why.

You have wizard 5 (for an example)
6) class(a) 1 - choose Wizard as the class to add features from. (wiz 6)
7.) class(b) 1 - choose class(a) as the class to add features from.

In choosing class (a) you get a "+1 to class features of class" feature from class(a) 2.

However, here is the place your logic stops working - If you use this to boost Wizard - your loop ends.

If you don't use it to boost wizard & instead use it to boost class(b) to get another "+1 to class features of class" feaure, your wizard class features don't increase because the feature doesn't add the class feaature progression to legacy champion -just the one off feature.

In order to gain any additional class features from wizard you'll need to find a PRC that gives "+1 to any two sets of class features".

Exactly... you DO wind up with +19 levels of class features, but you have to use each of them to support each other. Secondly, you can't take any class epic until actually obtaining 21st level, so if you tried to feed the loop back again then you wouldn't gain anything. It would essentially be "Special: You may not gain another +1 class features ability ever again."

Don't try to beat the game. You will just get beat down by your DM.
colm_l
09-20-05, 08:21 AM My point was not to advance the class features of Wizard, that's impossable. What I want to do is gain all the class features of Legacy Champion and class B.

Yeah - but there's very little benefit to that. If another class is published with Legacy Champion's ability (pretty unlikely to be honest with you - Legacy champion was designed as a once off - "one-size-fits-all" class to allow pumping the power of Legacy Items for any class)

Legacy Champion gives you better HD & BAB than Wizard - so why not stick with it normally & be able to continue with it at epic?

The only reason I've seen Legacy Champion used is because of that +1 per level prog. medium BAB & HD - the other abilities are quite minor.
Alratan
09-20-05, 05:06 PM Can you combine the +1 class features thing with the like of Arcane Hierophant or Mystic Theurge?
catharz
09-20-05, 05:29 PM Can you combine the +1 class features thing with the like of Arcane Hierophant or Mystic Theurge?

Yes, but remember that it will slow your spellcasting even more. And if you're hoping that Clr 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/CoL 4 will be an improvement, you're out of luck: MT's class ability progression beyond level 10 is awful.

The only abuse I can think of is getting Epic abilities pre-epic with a 5/10/CoL 5 setup or somesuch. But remember, as you don't qualify for epic feats pre-epic, you can't take any. Still might be interesting for a class which gets cool stuff at the epic levels, like Dragon Disciple or Incantatrix.
RadicalTaoist
09-20-05, 06:48 PM What exactly is the CoL's prerequisite's? Does it have any gaps in it's +1 class features ability?
We may have stumbled across the very first full manifesting prestige class.
catharz
09-20-05, 06:52 PM What exactly is the CoL's prerequisite's? Does it have any gaps in it's +1 class features ability?
We may have stumbled across the very first full manifesting prestige class.

Of course it has gaps! You can't get something for nothing ;)

IIRC they are at 1, 5, and 8. But I could be totally wrong.
Rutibex
09-20-05, 08:30 PM Of course it has gaps! You can't get something for nothing ;)

IIRC they are at 1, 5, and 8. But I could be totally wrong.

Nope, it's just 1 and 8.
lokkesmadr
09-20-05, 08:35 PM Rutibex, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Champion of Legacy uses the same sort of language as the classes that grant +1 level of existing spellcasting, doesn't it? Specifically, the requirement that the virtual levels of class abilities granted by the PrC be applied to a class that the character already had before taking the PrC...
CravesLove
09-20-05, 09:44 PM Rutibex, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Champion of Legacy uses the same sort of language as the classes that grant +1 level of existing spellcasting, doesn't it? Specifically, the requirement that the virtual levels of class abilities granted by the PrC be applied to a class that the character already had before taking the PrC...

It needs to be applied to a class that the character had before taking that particular level.

Fitz
RadicalTaoist
09-21-05, 12:16 PM Of course it has gaps! You can't get something for nothing ;)
If only they'd known that when writing Complete Divine...
catharz
09-21-05, 09:28 PM If only they'd known that when writing Complete Divine...

Oh Snap!
Lord Psynister
09-22-05, 02:26 AM I just skimmed the replies after seeing that it was getting dragged out a bit, so if someone else already mentioned this one, my appologies.

Heir of Siberys (Eberron Campaign Setting) is another class that gives +1 to existing class.
colm_l
09-22-05, 03:06 AM Heir of Siberys (Eberron Campaign Setting) is another class that gives +1 to existing class.

Unfortunately this is only for spellcasting & is only 3 levels long.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rutibex 09-18-05, 11:09 PM	I was looking through Weapons of Legacy and I saw something intresting, the Champion of Legacy class give out +1 to existing class features (not just spell levels). What I want to know is if there are any more of these classes, I only need one. Think: Class A gives +1 to class features of Class B. One of Class Bs class features is +1 to another classes features, which is then put into class A. This creates a feedback loop that allows all class features to be gained in a single level, up until a level that doesn't give +1 class features.
PhoenixInferno 09-18-05, 11:14 PM	Legacy Champion is the first time I've ever heard of +1 to Class Features mechanic.
karthos 09-19-05, 10:52 AM	Sounds more like a chain then a loop, using your scenario Class A would grant you the features of class B for that level, class B would grant you the features of class A for that level (which you already have) and you wind up with essentially nothing.
Zemyla 09-19-05, 05:55 PM	The only class I've seen like this is the Atavist (RoE), which advances both monk damage and soulknife enhancement.
Rutibex 09-19-05, 07:34 PM	Sounds more like a chain then a loop, using your scenario Class A would grant you the features of class B for that level, class B would grant you the features of class A for that level (which you already have) and you wind up with essentially nothing. No, don't you see? It gives out +1 to class features, it so you would gain another effective level in respect to your previous classes features (just like +1 caster level). Think of it in sequance. You have two classes, A and B. Both have the class feature "+1 class features". We'll start off with a level in both: A1/B1. What happens when you get level 3? You advance class A, which allows you to advance the features of another class, you choose B (your only choice, but under normal cercomstances you would also have another class because both would be prestege classes). Now your class features are at A2/B2. But there is another step! Class Bs features include "+1 to another classes features" as well, so you have to assign it, and your only choice is class A. Now you features are at A3/B2. This will continue until you dump the +1 into a class that doesn't give out another +1.
Caelic 09-19-05, 08:08 PM	...except that there's nothing to suggest that you apply the benefits over and over again in sequence. Class A gives the features of one level of class B; class B gives the features of one level of class A. They give those benefits simultaneously, because there's nothing anywhere in the rules to suggest that class benefits are assigned one after the other.
Rutibex 09-19-05, 09:32 PM	...except that there's nothing to suggest that you apply the benefits over and over again in sequence. Class A gives the features of one level of class B; class B gives the features of one level of class A. They give those benefits simultaneously, because there's nothing anywhere in the rules to suggest that class benefits are assigned one after the other. You don't gain anything simultaneously, the entire process of leveling is sequential. Look at page 58 of the PHB, it has the sequance. It needs to be done this way because many steps involve making decisions that could effect the options you have further along. For example: Feats must be chosen before you gain new spells. This means that if you want to pick up a feat that requires you to cast 6th level spells and your new level grants you access to 6th levels spells you don't qualify for it because you don't have 6th level spells until after the feat selection step.
Yellowsnow6967 09-19-05, 09:47 PM	You don't gain anything simultaneously, the entire process of leveling is sequential. Look at page 58 of the PHB, it has the sequance. It needs to be done this way because many steps involve making decisions that could effect the options you have further along. For example: Feats must be chosen before you gain new spells. This means that if you want to pick up a feat that requires you to cast 6th level spells and your new level grants you access to 6th levels spells you don't qualify for it because you don't have 6th level spells until after the feat selection step. The +1 to class features is to a class that u have already had in past lvls, and because Class A gives u the ability for Class B's +1 to Class Features all that is giving u is another lvl of somehting else that u had already in previous lvls, it doesn;t mean that u keep advancing in that class. Now I don't know if i am right here but it works almost the exact same way as a +1 of Existing Spellcaster levels where u have to have at least one base class of this spellcaster (usually u have it for a Requirement). Double check ur info
slade_caizer 09-19-05, 09:58 PM	And what do you do when you, say, take levels of Eldritch Knight and try to apply the +1 level of arcane casting class from that to previous levels of Knight Phantom. Do you also get an infinite caster level boost? (I don't think so. :nonono: ) Please. Wait for the weed to wear off and don't mix medications. It's unhealthy. ;)
dylanarena 09-19-05, 11:23 PM	And what do you do when you, say, take levels of Eldritch Knight and try to apply the +1 level of arcane casting class from that to previous levels of Knight Phantom. Do you also get an infinite caster level boost? (I don't think so. :nonono: ) Please. Wait for the weed to wear off and don't mix medications. It's unhealthy. ;) Doesn't Eldritch Knight only give +1 to effective caster level? If so, it wouldn't give any other class features of Knight Phantom. What our friend Rutibex is saying seems to be that the benefit of this one Champion of Legacy class (i.e., +1 to all class features instead of just effective caster level) is fundamentally different from all previous instances of "gain +1 to blahblahblah." I'm not saying he's right, just trying to clarify because I don't think your counter-example really fits his model. I could, however, just be misunderstanding everything in this thread. :)
Rutibex 09-20-05, 12:06 AM	And what do you do when you, say, take levels of Eldritch Knight and try to apply the +1 level of arcane casting class from that to previous levels of Knight Phantom. Do you also get an infinite caster level boost? (I don't think so. :nonono: ) Please. Wait for the weed to wear off and don't mix medications. It's unhealthy. ;) No no no, you don't understand! Eldritch Knight and Knight Phantom (I'm guessing, I've never heard of it) arn't arcane casting classes! Arcane casters are classes that grant actual spells, not pluses. I can't see why you people don't understand this concept, I thought you guys knew the rules inside and out. This works, assuming I can find another class that has the same feature as the Champion of Legacy.
slade_caizer 09-20-05, 01:30 AM	It was an analogy. Apparently it wasn't similar enough for people not to whine. Anyway, it's not that we don't understand the concept. It's that we think the 'infinite loop' in this scenario is complete and utter B*S*. The main reason I feel so would be the ease of triggering and lack of supporting logic behind it. This also seems to be the largest part of others dislike of it, but I could be misunderstanding them. Any player that proposed to me they could take one level of a class and gain every (or most) feature(s) of another (or both for that matter) would be sitting out that session for their massive dose of stupidity.
Mistwell 09-20-05, 01:36 AM	Does it says you gain +1 abilities from ALL classes you have, rather than just one particular class?
colm_l 09-20-05, 06:37 AM	I can't see why you people don't understand this concept, I thought you guys knew the rules inside and out. We do. Oh yea of little faith... This works, assuming I can find another class that has the same feature as the Champion of Legacy. It doesn't - now I'll spell out why. You have wizard 5 (for an example) 6) class(a) 1 - choose Wizard as the class to add features from. (wiz 6) 7.) class(b) 1 - choose class(a) as the class to add features from. In choosing class (a) you get a "+1 to class features of class" feature from class(a) 2. However, here is the place your logic stops working - If you use this to boost Wizard - your loop ends. If you don't use it to boost wizard & instead use it to boost class(b) to get another "+1 to class features of class" feaure, your wizard class features don't increase because the feature doesn't add the class feaature progression to legacy champion -just the one off feature. In order to gain any additional class features from wizard you'll need to find a PRC that gives "+1 to any two sets of class features".
Rutibex 09-20-05, 07:17 AM	It was an analogy. Apparently it wasn't similar enough for people not to whine. Anyway, it's not that we don't understand the concept. It's that we think the 'infinite loop' in this scenario is complete and utter B*S*. The main reason I feel so would be the ease of triggering and lack of supporting logic behind it. This also seems to be the largest part of others dislike of it, but I could be misunderstanding them. Any player that proposed to me they could take one level of a class and gain every (or most) feature(s) of another (or both for that matter) would be sitting out that session for their massive dose of stupidity. It's not like I'm saying you should tell you DM that you're doing this, that's just foolish. No DM would allow any of the ultra game breaking builds on this board, but that never stopped them from being made. We do. Oh yea of little faith... It doesn't - now I'll spell out why. You have wizard 5 (for an example) 6) class(a) 1 - choose Wizard as the class to add features from. (wiz 6) 7.) class(b) 1 - choose class(a) as the class to add features from. In choosing class (a) you get a "+1 to class features of class" feature from class(a) 2. However, here is the place your logic stops working - If you use this to boost Wizard - your loop ends. If you don't use it to boost wizard & instead use it to boost class(b) to get another "+1 to class features of class" feaure, your wizard class features don't increase because the feature doesn't add the class feaature progression to legacy champion -just the one off feature. In order to gain any additional class features from wizard you'll need to find a PRC that gives "+1 to any two sets of class features". I already said this, the loop ends when you get to a level that doesn't have "+1 class features", so a level of Wizard or one of the levels of Legacy Champion that doesn't have it. My point was not to advance the class features of Wizard, that's impossable. What I want to do is gain all the class features of Legacy Champion and class B.
slade_caizer 09-20-05, 07:21 AM	It's not like a saying you should tell you DM that you're doing this, that's just foolish. No DM would allow any of the ultra game breaking builds on this board, but that never stopped them from being made. I already said this, the loop ends when you get to a level that doesn't have "+1 class features", so a level of Wizard or one of the levels of Legacy Champion that doesn't have it. My point was not to advance the class features of Wizard, that's impossable. What I want to do is gain all the class features of Legacy Champion and class B.Have you thought of a way to do that yet? :cool: (Nicely explained, Colm.)
X-Codes 09-20-05, 07:24 AM	It doesn't - now I'll spell out why. You have wizard 5 (for an example) 6) class(a) 1 - choose Wizard as the class to add features from. (wiz 6) 7.) class(b) 1 - choose class(a) as the class to add features from. In choosing class (a) you get a "+1 to class features of class" feature from class(a) 2. However, here is the place your logic stops working - If you use this to boost Wizard - your loop ends. If you don't use it to boost wizard & instead use it to boost class(b) to get another "+1 to class features of class" feaure, your wizard class features don't increase because the feature doesn't add the class feaature progression to legacy champion -just the one off feature. In order to gain any additional class features from wizard you'll need to find a PRC that gives "+1 to any two sets of class features". Exactly... you DO wind up with +19 levels of class features, but you have to use each of them to support each other. Secondly, you can't take any class epic until actually obtaining 21st level, so if you tried to feed the loop back again then you wouldn't gain anything. It would essentially be "Special: You may not gain another +1 class features ability ever again." Don't try to beat the game. You will just get beat down by your DM.
colm_l 09-20-05, 08:21 AM	My point was not to advance the class features of Wizard, that's impossable. What I want to do is gain all the class features of Legacy Champion and class B. Yeah - but there's very little benefit to that. If another class is published with Legacy Champion's ability (pretty unlikely to be honest with you - Legacy champion was designed as a once off - "one-size-fits-all" class to allow pumping the power of Legacy Items for any class) Legacy Champion gives you better HD & BAB than Wizard - so why not stick with it normally & be able to continue with it at epic? The only reason I've seen Legacy Champion used is because of that +1 per level prog. medium BAB & HD - the other abilities are quite minor.
Alratan 09-20-05, 05:06 PM	Can you combine the +1 class features thing with the like of Arcane Hierophant or Mystic Theurge?
catharz 09-20-05, 05:29 PM	Can you combine the +1 class features thing with the like of Arcane Hierophant or Mystic Theurge? Yes, but remember that it will slow your spellcasting even more. And if you're hoping that Clr 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/CoL 4 will be an improvement, you're out of luck: MT's class ability progression beyond level 10 is awful. The only abuse I can think of is getting Epic abilities pre-epic with a 5/10/CoL 5 setup or somesuch. But remember, as you don't qualify for epic feats pre-epic, you can't take any. Still might be interesting for a class which gets cool stuff at the epic levels, like Dragon Disciple or Incantatrix.
RadicalTaoist 09-20-05, 06:48 PM	What exactly is the CoL's prerequisite's? Does it have any gaps in it's +1 class features ability? We may have stumbled across the very first full manifesting prestige class.
catharz 09-20-05, 06:52 PM	What exactly is the CoL's prerequisite's? Does it have any gaps in it's +1 class features ability? We may have stumbled across the very first full manifesting prestige class. Of course it has gaps! You can't get something for nothing ;) IIRC they are at 1, 5, and 8. But I could be totally wrong.
Rutibex 09-20-05, 08:30 PM	Of course it has gaps! You can't get something for nothing ;) IIRC they are at 1, 5, and 8. But I could be totally wrong. Nope, it's just 1 and 8.
lokkesmadr 09-20-05, 08:35 PM	Rutibex, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Champion of Legacy uses the same sort of language as the classes that grant +1 level of existing spellcasting, doesn't it? Specifically, the requirement that the virtual levels of class abilities granted by the PrC be applied to a class that the character already had before taking the PrC...
CravesLove 09-20-05, 09:44 PM	Rutibex, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Champion of Legacy uses the same sort of language as the classes that grant +1 level of existing spellcasting, doesn't it? Specifically, the requirement that the virtual levels of class abilities granted by the PrC be applied to a class that the character already had before taking the PrC... It needs to be applied to a class that the character had before taking that particular level. Fitz
RadicalTaoist 09-21-05, 12:16 PM	Of course it has gaps! You can't get something for nothing ;) If only they'd known that when writing Complete Divine...
catharz 09-21-05, 09:28 PM	If only they'd known that when writing Complete Divine... Oh Snap!
Lord Psynister 09-22-05, 02:26 AM	I just skimmed the replies after seeing that it was getting dragged out a bit, so if someone else already mentioned this one, my appologies. Heir of Siberys (Eberron Campaign Setting) is another class that gives +1 to existing class.
colm_l 09-22-05, 03:06 AM	Heir of Siberys (Eberron Campaign Setting) is another class that gives +1 to existing class. Unfortunately this is only for spellcasting & is only 3 levels long.