Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pandoria 02-11-05, 07:32 AM	I was wondering what style of fighting players used most and why.and what type of weapon they used and why. I was thinkin about starting a new char 4fighter/3ranger/6rogue, and i wanted to here from the board before I made my choices. Thanks.
lostone 02-11-05, 07:39 AM	My players go both ways depending on whether they want a Dex based or Str based character. TWF is best for Dex based, with weapon finesse, there are lots of options for prestige classes but one of the best/most popular on these boards is the Dervish. Single-weapon fighters are best for strength based wearing armor, one of the best builds I've seen for that was based on Frenzied Berserker which was able to deal out massive amounts of damage each round. It's really just a personal preference, do you want to have lots of attacks that do less damage or fewer attacks that hit harder?
GrolubFranco 02-11-05, 09:37 AM	lostone almost said it all. I´ll just add the Swashbuckler for the dervish guy with TWF, or Spiked Chain if you want control, besides the obvious Frenzied Berserker Great Sword.
HoshiAdam 02-11-05, 09:54 AM	Two Weapon Fighting is more feat intensive compared to Two Handed Fighting. With some feats (Oversize Two Weapon Fighting) and prestige classes (Tempest, Dervish), Two Weapon Fighting can have a pretty decent damage output compared to THF.
rilem 02-11-05, 10:03 AM	Generally speaking, TWF only makes sense if you have some means of boosting the damage with each hit. It's the only way to overcome the mathemical advantages of the Big Two-Handed Weapon approach, especially with 3.5 power attack rules. (Also note that two-weapon fighters, especially rogues, wind up missing a lot b/c of their lower BAB and TWF penalties. So it's not just a matter of doing less damage, you're also often hitting less frequently). Some sources of extra damage include: - Sneak Attack and its brethren. Obviously. - Divine Might - Dervish - Oversized Weapon feat (C.Adv.) and Power Attack - Piling on of Weapon Enhancements: Flaming, Frost, etc. The problem with this is that it tends to be a) Cheesy — Yes, if you get TWO acidic/shocking/frost/flaming/holy +1 swords you'll be doing some decent damage, big whoop; and/or b) Ineffective — at the level when such weapons are available, many foes have as many elemental immunities as you have enhancements. You might want to stick to non-elemental damage enchancements: Holy, Psychokinetic, Collision, etc. You can also offset your TWF to-hit penalties using PrCs such as Justicar of Taiia (Deities/Demi, which also boosts Sneak Attack) and Knight of the Middle Circle (S&F). Tempest (C.Adv) can also help in this regard, but only use it if you're using Dervish — the feat requirements are pointless otherwise.
GrolubFranco 02-11-05, 10:17 AM	Or achieving better critical range´s. That way you´ll be hitting criticals more time than a two handed guy
Abulafia 02-11-05, 02:18 PM	I think it's mostly a matter of personal preference. 2WF costs more in resources (two swords vs. one) and feats (wf longsword & short sword), but it can do comparable damage. It comes down to two-handed power attack versus two enhancement bonuses or additional dice damage. I've been playing a dual-wielding (axe & hammer) dwarven monk in a campaign for about a month and a half now, and I'm having a blast. The DM allowed a Whirling Steel Strike-type feat to let me flurry with the axe, so I can fire off 5 attacks at level 8, and hit with 2 or 3 of them. When I get to level 11 (if the campaign lasts that long), I'll probably go Tempest 5/Ftr or Rog 4 to finish it out.
troublemaker 02-11-05, 03:42 PM	My opinion: LOW LEVEL CHARACTERS - TWF - lots of attacks per round - nice chance to hit -> opponents normally with low AC - base damage is enough to beat NPCs HIGH LEVEL CHARACTERS - THW - Massive damage - Normally THW Fighters have better Hit and Damage numbers -> nice vs high AC That´s is basically my point.... Fighter / Barbarian / Holy Liberator / Frenzied Berzeker combo is really great :)
Baneslayer 02-11-05, 03:51 PM	Oversized 2WF with two Rapiers for a Swashbuckler/Fighter/Tempest with WF/WS/Imp Crit: Rapier and Power Attack. I always wanted to play a character who used a brace of Rapiers in the Spanish Style. :D
Mommy was an Orc 02-11-05, 05:41 PM	Oversized TWF feat is one lousy feat. In the very best situation, all you've gotten is essentially a +2 to damage for at most every other weapon strike. Or in other words, about an extra +1 damage per swing. Usually slightly less as most people won't have the latest TWF/ITWF/GTWF at the level they gain their additional attack due to BAB.
rilem 02-11-05, 06:07 PM	Regarding Oversized TWF, I think being able to Power Attack with both weapons could boost your overall damage — though I haven't done the math. Otherwise, it's only useful in a couple situations: - You get an extra point of AC out of Shield-bashing style, because you can use a large shield. - For players who really, really want to do a dual-battleaxe Clangeddin priest.
lostone 02-13-05, 12:38 PM	Oversized TWF feat is one lousy feat. In the very best situation, all you've gotten is essentially a +2 to damage for at most every other weapon strike. Or in other words, about an extra +1 damage per swing. Usually slightly less as most people won't have the latest TWF/ITWF/GTWF at the level they gain their additional attack due to BAB.Overside TWF is useful for another reason, it let's you use the same type of weapon in both hands, so you don't need to take feats like weapon focus or exotic weapon proficiency (if necessary) twice, one for each weapon in each hand. Instead you only need the feat once and it applies to both hands.
Mommy was an Orc 02-13-05, 03:00 PM	Which sounds nice, but who exactly is doing this: TWF, ITWF, EWP(Bastard Sword), WF(Bastard Sword), and Oversized TWF is the reasonable minimum feat requirement to pull this off. TWF is worse than THF unless you're generating a lot of damage which is not based on strength. That involves Sneak Attack usually. Probably a minimum of +3d6 at the point you can get all those feats working. And then there's a large range of feats that you're going to want to take to make yourself a better sneak attacker - Staggering Strike, Quickdraw(for TWF throwing as a full attack action when you surprise someone), Improved Initiative, Improved Buckler Defense, etc... +1 to hit, +2 damage for 2-3 offhand attacks is not worth it when you then take into account feats needed to qualify for PrCs. Overside TWF is useful for another reason, it let's you use the same type of weapon in both hands, so you don't need to take feats like weapon focus or exotic weapon proficiency (if necessary) twice, one for each weapon in each hand. Instead you only need the feat once and it applies to both hands.
Falkus 02-13-05, 04:45 PM	1 Weapon or 2 Weapon fighting style? Whichever one you find more cool and fitting of your character background.
Evadyn 02-13-05, 05:27 PM	Whichever one you find more cool and fitting of your character background. :lightbulb OFCOURSE!!!
happycows 02-13-05, 06:14 PM	Towershield + Bastard sword + fullpate vs two weapon fighting with bastard swords (at say -2 penalty) mithrall chainshirt. Towershield will put the one hand weapon user's ac higher then the two weapon fighter. Having higher AC is always good. Against two weapon fighters it seems to always be a good idea to bump up AC at the cost of BA for the one hand weapon fighter. Tactically and feat wise I would prefer the one hand user unless say I was going for tempest. Unless there was some kind of powerbuilding strategy that bumps the two weapon user up.
Baneslayer 02-13-05, 09:33 PM	My current Fighter character is a THW fighter but the best THW feats dovetail into Barbarians better than Fighters. Spring Attack, the most useful of the 2-hand fighter's combat feats, requires Medium Armor - which penalizes the Heavy Armor Fighter but is made to order for a Barb (who also gets the added 10' of movement on top of it to make it even more effective). To be a non-barb THW fighter you absolutly must have all the best of the munchkin gear - Mithral Armor, Animated Shields - to stay on an equal footing. TWF in a way is designed to justify the need to be a fighter due to all of the feats involved to master it. But as shown, the TWF character wants to increase the amount of dice thrown per hit, so levels of Rogue are almost a must. If you are particularly wealthy you can invest in matching Flaming/Cold/Electic weapons as well. Also levels of Tempest to get rid of the TWF penalties are almost a must.
lostone 02-14-05, 07:28 AM	Tactically and feat wise I would prefer the one hand user unless say I was going for tempest. Unless there was some kind of powerbuilding strategy that bumps the two weapon user up.There was a feat somewhere (Sword & Fist I think, don't know if it got a 3.5 update) that allowed a TWF to give up their off hand attacks to get a bonus to AC (effectively they are parrying with the off hand) if it was needed. I think it was a +2, but it may be a +2 for each off hand attack given up, I don't recall. I never used the feat, just kept it in mind, when I make a TWF character I tend to focus all on the offensive (weapon finesse and focusing on dex is about the only defensive focus when I make a TWF) and get magic items for defense.
Abulafia 02-14-05, 04:44 PM	TWF is worse than THF unless you're generating a lot of damage which is not based on strength. That is not true. Damage [D] for a two-handed weapon is: D = 1.5*S + E + 2*P + F + R Where S is Strength modifier, E is the weapon's enhancement bonus, P is the Power Attack Modifier, F is the cumulative effect of damage-increasing feats such as Weapon Specialization and Improved Critical, and R is the dice roll. Damage for two weapons fought TWF style is: D1 = S + E1 + P + F1 + R1 D2 = .5*S + E2 + P + F2 + R2 Total Damage D1 + D2 = 1.5*S + E1 + E2 + 2*P + R1 + R2 Where notations 1 & 2 denote primary and off-hand weapons, respectively, and it is assumed E > E1 >= E2, F > F1 >= F2, and R > R1 >= R. Given these conditions, damage between one THF attack and one primary & one off-hand TWF attack equalizes at: 1.5*S + E + 2*P + F + R = 1.5*S + E1 + E2 + 2*P + F1 + F2 + R1 + R2 or E + F + R = E1 + E2 + F1 + F2 + R1 + R2 If we assume further that E1 + E2 > E (two +1 weapons are cheaper than a +2 weapon) and R1 + R2 > R (avg. greatsword dice roll = 7, avg. longsword dice roll = 4.5, avg. short sword dice roll = 3.5), then we know that TWF will do more damage than THF except when F - (F1 + F2) >= (E1 + E2 - E) + (R1+ R2 - R) Which shows us a couple of things: 1) TWF can match (and even exceed) THF in damage output under reasonably normal conditions. 2) For a single THF attack versus a 2-swing TWF attack, your strength and power attack modifiers make zero difference. 3) The real limitations on TWF damage output are economic (i.e., cost to acquire and enhance two weapons) and feat-related (i.e., feat slots consumed by TWF, ITWF, GTWF, instead of Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, etc.). The foregoing only analyzes one THF versus two TWF swings. A single THF attack does more damage than a single TWF attack (mitigated somewhat by the new Dual Strike feat and the Two-weapon Spring Attack Tempest class ability). Also, once iterative attacks are added, additional TWF feats are needed to keep up. At BAB +16, the THF has a damage advantage on the last attack (1.5*S + E + 2*P + R versus S + E1 + P + R1), but the chance of this attack hitting (smallest BAB, power attack penalty) is slim, negating this advantage.
rilem 02-14-05, 04:53 PM	TIf we assume further that E1 + E2 > E (two +1 weapons are cheaper than a +2 weapon) .... then we know that TWF will do more damage than THF except when It's good to see this sort of thing, especially when it dissents from the consensus view. However, your assumptions about enhancements don't take into account that most C/O advice would have players using Greater Magic Weapon whenever possible. When GMW is factored in, the price of effectively higher Enhancement values drops significantly, since you're using a +1 Greatsword ensorcelled to be worth +3. At the same time, the relative cost of enhancing two shortswords rises, since doing so requires two spell slots. There's another element to the TWF/THF debate that's only been touched on here. The TWF style exposes the user to full attacks from their opponent, which can be dangerous for low-HP types. THF can work with spring-attack routines (this changes somewhat with Comp.Adv.) and is arguably more survivable. But there's debate over that, as well. Some argue that the spring-attack concept drags fights out unnecessarily, giving room for something disastrous to happen (somebody rolls a 1 on a saving throw, reinforcements arrive, etc.).
Abulafia 02-14-05, 05:05 PM	I think Tempest levels are pretty much de rigeur now for TWF builds. You need 5 feats to meet the prerequisites, so something like Bbn 2/Ftr 4/Tempest 5 or Bbn 2/Rgr 2/Ftr 2/Tempest 5 is a good build. Either one gets you TWF, ITWF, Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack, with rage, fast movement, and uncanny dodge, and either another fighter bonus feat or track & favored enemy. Oversize Two-Weapon Fighting is sort of a wash if you're taking Tempest levels; Two-weapon Versatility negates the greatest advantage of OTWS, but you still get an extra point of damage or so from the off-hand weapon. Dual Strike would be a good choice for the TWF'er with more attack bonus than he knows what to do with. Improved Bucker Defense is still a better bet. I posted this before I read your excellent response, rilem, so I apologize if it sounds like a non sequitur (although the reference to the Tempest class, Dual Strike and Improved Buckler Defense partially address your points). I mainly wanted to challenge the notion that TWF was for low-str, extra-damage-dice fighters. I think it works just as well for high-str, power-attacking fighters, or at least close enough that anyone who prefers the concept of a TWF'er shouldn't be discouraged from taking it up.
Mommy was an Orc 02-14-05, 05:45 PM	You're forgetting a few key things in your analysis: You need a 15/17/19 Dexterity or Ranger 2/6/11 for TWF/ITWF/GTWF. Having a high Dex and Str is usually expensive, particularly in Point Buy. And you can't get PTWF until Epic. You are spending 3+ feats compared to the THF's 0. THF's attacks are going to be improved by those 3 feats you no longer have to spend. R for THF is higher to significantly higher than R1 for TWF. A Greatsword is 2d6. A shortsword is a d6 - sure, you can get EWP - Bastard Sword, but that's yet another feat - for less damage. But most importantly, the number you're looking at is the wrong one. Sure, if you hit every time, you'll do roughly the same damage as a TWF'r. But the THF'r tends to hit more often because they either A) don't get the -2 to hit and/or B) can afford a significantly higher Strength because they don't need to afford that high Dexterity. Tempest isn't a particularly great solution because it requires yet more feats to make things work. That is not true. Damage [D] for a two-handed weapon is: D = 1.5*S + E + 2*P + F + R Where S is Strength modifier, E is the weapon's enhancement bonus, P is the Power Attack Modifier, F is the cumulative effect of damage-increasing feats such as Weapon Specialization and Improved Critical, and R is the dice roll. Damage for two weapons fought TWF style is: D1 = S + E1 + P + F1 + R1 D2 = .5*S + E2 + P + F2 + R2 Total Damage D1 + D2 = 1.5*S + E1 + E2 + 2*P + R1 + R2
Caelic 02-14-05, 05:51 PM	Actually, there ARE a few builds where OTWF works well. I've been playing with a Battlesmith/Hammer of Moradin build that works quite nicely, since it adds that +.5 Strength mod to each hammer. Base Str damage on the off hand weapon, 1.5 Str mod on the main hand weapon, Wis to both, +2 from weapon specialization, +2 from Cleric of Moradin 4...it adds up.
happycows 02-14-05, 06:01 PM	Only frenzied berserkers two hand weapons well. Two handed weapons are only better then one handed weapons in the following circumstances high to hit power attack high strength (in the 30s) feats that double or triple damage when charging etc. Otherwise it's always better to get the AC, unless your dex is below 10 and you don't feel like getting gloves of dex. But if you're a dwarf it's rather easy to get constitution to dex. two weapon fighting is heavy on the feats, but eventually you get +3 ac and 8 attacks and they can be bastard swords or something. So you'll be kicking butt.But this is strength and dex heavy (MAD), unless you get weapon finesse and do less damage.
Abulafia 02-14-05, 07:12 PM	You're forgetting a few key things in your analysis: You need a 15/17/19 Dexterity or Ranger 2/6/11 for TWF/ITWF/GTWF. Having a high Dex and Str is usually expensive, particularly in Point Buy.True, but quibbling. I'm not sure point buy is the problem, either: you have three stats (Int, Wis, Cha) you can dump. With 25-pt buy, a human could start with Str 17, Dex 15, Con 12, Int/Wis/Cha 8, and be just fine. Even better with a dwarf, or 32-point buy. Wouldn't standard array be more of a problem? You are spending 3+ feats compared to the THF's 0. THF's attacks are going to be improved by those 3 feats you no longer have to spend.Didn't forget it. That's what all that F > F1 business is about. R for THF is higher to significantly higher than R1 for TWF. A Greatsword is 2d6. A shortsword is a d6 . . . Yes, but a longsword is d8. The iconic TWF combo is longsword + shortsword. 1d8 + 1d6 is (slightly) larger than 2d6. That's what R1 + R2 > R means. But most importantly, the number you're looking at is the wrong one. Sure, if you hit every time, you'll do roughly the same damage as a TWF'r. But the THF'r tends to hit more often because they either A) don't get the -2 to hit and/or B) can afford a significantly higher Strength because they don't need to afford that high Dexterity. Tempest isn't a particularly great solution because it requires yet more feats to make things work. A THF'er, who takes 3 less swings a round, tends to hit more? Doesn't that go against the whole point of having extra-dice TWF'ers? But I digress. If you start with 15 Dex and buy gloves +4, you never have to invest in Dex again. A 16,000-GP magic item is not a big deal after about level 13. You can put all of your level-up stat increases into strength. A THF might have a Str 1 or 2 points higher, but not "significantly" higher. I think the point you're trying to make is that a THF'er does more damage per blow, and against a high-AC opponent, maximizing damage on each hit is crucial. Bear in mind, however, that against very hard-to-hit opponents, a TWF'er rolls more d20's, increasing the chance of any sort of hit at all. I have nothing against two-handed fighting; I played a falchion-wielding barbarian in a campaign for almost a year. Great fun. It is a lot simpler to put together a functional two-handed fighter, but a properly-built TWF'er really can do just fine.
eRaz0r 02-14-05, 08:24 PM	So you and your THF are fighting the same opponent. You both have the same BAB, STR and DEX (including items) He's using a greatsword and you're using a LS/SS combo. Lets assume they're nonmagical. He hits on an 18 or better You need a 20 (-2 to both attacks) He's got a 3 in 20 chance of hitting once (18, 19, 20) You've got a 2 in 20 chance of hitting once (because you've got two rolls, and have a 1 in 20 chance of getting either), but only a 1 in 400 chance of hitting with both attacks (1/20 x 1/20) IF he hits he does 2d6 + STR Mod x 1.5 in damage (assuming no PA) IF you hit once (2 in 20 chance) you might do as little as 1d6+0.5 x StrMod (miss with the main hand, and hit with the off hand). If you hit twice (remember : 1 in 400 chance) you will do the maximum of 1d8+1d6 + StrMod x 1.5. Even if your STR was 2 points higher, you'd still have only a 1 in 100 chance of dealing damage with both attacks. If you could hit on a 13 or better, you'd have roughly the same chance to do your full damage as the THW user has on an 18 or better. (8/20 * 8/20 = 0.16, 3/20 = 0.15). Of course you have a 16 in 20 chance of doing *some* damage at that point, which is certainly a lot better than the 17 in 20 chance of doing no damage at all, that the THW fighter has.. but the point I'm making is that your chances of doing your full damage is far less than you seemed to assume. Now when you realize that the TWF tree requires more resources (double equipment, more feats, and, unless ranger, DEX) than the 2Handed fighting tree, I fail to see how you can suggest that they're equivalently powerful choices for a fighter-type. (Obviously, Rangers and Rogues get more chances to double more non-Str dependant damage, so TWF gives them bonuses that aren't considered in the above example). Please feel free to point out any mistakes I've made in my calculations above.
troublemaker 02-14-05, 08:46 PM	This discussion will never ends... because it is a matter of likes and dislikes... about both styles.... Some points about what have been said: Rolling more D20s in a round against opponents with high AC doesn´t mean you have more chance to hit... i disagree with that... completely. Most of THW fighters .. the good ones... don´t use the standart 1.5 STR multiplier to damage... but 2 times STR multiplier.... like HoM and EWM abilities.... Divine Might is always usefull.... Hammer of Earth (adds CON to Damage) ... Exotic Heavy Weapons and some other resources that inflicts much more damage than the TWF guy.... a lot more.... so STRENGHT and SIZE make a great difference in damage.... I´m playing a TWF guy.... it´s a lot fun.... but compared to my other THW guys he is a joke.... completelly.... not against low AC opponents.. but against the BIG BOSSES (high AC)... but... the TWF is extremelly nice against multiple opponents.... is more versatile.... and..... i agree... if your character have good stats, lots of gold and a good combo of feats.. the TWF can be very effective.... Well... the important thing is that the 2 of them can do the job well :) with great fun
Baneslayer 02-15-05, 01:09 AM	There is a flaw in the base calculation of damage for twf: Unless you use the OTWF feat, the offhand weapon is going to be a light weapon and cannot gain the benefit of Power Attack. Your calculations and conclusions can only be true if a character has OTWF. The other problem is that this damage calculation is only true for rounds where the TWF can get a full attack off. The more mobile the target, the more often a TWF combatant is reduced to one attack a round - a severe limitation only rectified by reaching Tempest 5 and getting the class ability Two Weapon Spring Attack (which the Tempest must wear only Light Armor to be able to use, a mild but real limitation). So, optimally, the damage is as you have calculated. But fights very rarely are conducted under optimal conditions.
EvilDuck 02-15-05, 08:20 AM	Here's how it's looking: THF is best for those who power attack mucho and have high Str. TWF is best for those who have a source of extra damage that applies to each attack. Everyone else should get a shield.
HoshiAdam 02-15-05, 10:09 AM	Every time this discussion comes to numbers, I start to think it is impossible to quantitatively measure the two styles without having actual builds. I might have some time tonight to come up with what I think is the best TWF build that does only consistent damage (no sneak attack or Stalker of Kharrash/OTWF/Favored Enemy(Evil) Power Attack). I'm not as good with single weapon builds (don't know all the PA tricks very well), so I'd like some build suggestions or full builds for THF. Only ground rules I can think of are: *No situational damage (bane, favored enemy, sneak attack, elemental weapons, etc). Combat Brute is good though. *No times/day damage, excluding combat/day greater than 2 (so Rages/Frenzies and Dervish Dance are okay if they can be used at least 3 times per day, Smites and true strike/PA are out) *Levels to compare would be good, I am thinking 5, 10, 15, and 20 would be good, or possibly 6/11/16/20, which would favor the TWF a little. Probably compromise at 6/10/15/20, since 6 opens up a feat for both and could be a good point of comparison. *Comparing two situations: Closing distance and full attacks. Closing distance you have to end so next round you would be able to make a full attack (so Spring Attack and ending a 5ft step away is okay). *Target AC's: at 6: 15 and 20 at 10: 20 and 27 at 15: 27 and 35 at 20: 35 and 45 These were based on my guesses about what a low AC could be for that level and a moderately high AC (could need to roll better than a 10). Definitely room for revision here. Stats: 32 point buy. Valid sources: 3.5 books, web enhancements. No FR Regional feats unless required by prestige classes. Psionics are allowed. Equipment: Can spend no more than 75% of gold for that level based on DMG, other 25% is for non-optimization things. No more than half of base gold on any single item. No custom items. Damage: Calculate damage by figuring out the average damage the character will do versus the target AC. Criticals probably should be included. Example: A character is doing 1d10+12 (19-20/x2 crit) and needs to roll a 12 to hit. One way to determine the damage is by a table of rolls: 1-11: 0 12-18: 1d10+12=16.5 19-20: (1d10+12)+(1d10+12)*(9/20 chance to confirm crit)=23.925 Average damage: 16.5*(7/20) + 23.925*(2/20)=8.1675 I think this might be a good optimization problem. Suggestions to improve the damage for either side would be good also.
pandoria 02-15-05, 01:23 PM	Wow thanks for all the info guys, You made it hard to pick 1 weapon or 2. I've decided I'm goin with 1 weapon fighting and im gunna use a greatsword or a fullblade and hold it 2 handed (der..),and gunna work my way upto whirlwind,improved crit,and great cleave.I'm not takin any levels in ranger anymore.(that was for TWF) I'm goin with a human 4fighter/6rogue/frenzied berzerker,or cleric, or expert tatition.(dont know yet) Thanks again it was most helpful.
Mommy was an Orc 02-15-05, 01:29 PM	A good choice if you're going to do that is to get EWP: Bastard Sword, WF: Bastard Sword, then get one level of Exotic Weapon Master: Uncanny Blow. Very useful once your strength goes past 19. I've decided I'm goin with 1 weapon fighting and im gunna use a greatsword or a fullblade and hold it 2 handed (der..) Thanks again it was most helpful.
pandoria 02-15-05, 02:55 PM	Why bastered sword and not greatsword?
Mommy was an Orc 02-15-05, 03:03 PM	You can't get Exotic Weapon Master with the Uncanny Blow using Greatsword. Uncanny Blow means instead of multiplying strength bonus by 1.5, you multiply it by 2 instead when using a one-handed exotic weapon two-handed. So if your total strength bonus is greater than 3, you do slightly more to a lot more damage with a one-handed exotic weapon. So if you have a 24 Strength, you'll do 2d6+10(average of 17) with a Greatsword. You'll do 1d10+14(average of 19.5) with a Bastard Sword. A Chameleon build who turns himself into a Sun Giant with Polymorph can do 1d10+44 pretty easily vs. a mere 2d6+33... Why bastered sword and not greatsword?
Abulafia 02-15-05, 05:10 PM	So you and your THF are fighting the same opponent. You both have the same BAB, STR and DEX (including items) He's using a greatsword and you're using a LS/SS combo. Lets assume they're nonmagical.Assuming they're nonmagical makes the model less realistic, and loses one of the big additive advantages of TWF. I assume they're magical in the analyses below. He hits on an 18 or better You need a 20 (-2 to both attacks)I'm assuming 4-5 levels of Tempest, so we both need an 18 or better. He's got a 3 in 20 chance of hitting once (18, 19, 20) You've got a 2 in 20 chance of hitting once (because you've got two rolls, and have a 1 in 20 chance of getting either), but only a 1 in 400 chance of hitting with both attacks (1/20 x 1/20)As I said before, Tempest. So this is 3 in 20 versus 6 in 20 once and 9/400 twice. IF he hits he does 2d6 + STR Mod x 1.5 in damageIf he hits, he does 2d6 + 1.5*Str Mod + Enhancement bonus. Enhancement bonus is an important part of the story, so please don't leave it out. IF you hit once (2 in 20 chance) you might do as little as 1d6+0.5 x StrMod (miss with the main hand, and hit with the off hand). If you hit twice (remember : 1 in 400 chance) you will do the maximum of 1d8+1d6 + StrMod x 1.5.A little misleading here. First, remove the penalty, so chances to hit and damage are: Primary: 3 in 20 (1d8 + Str Mod + Enhancement) Off-hand: 3 in 20 (1d6 + .5*Str Mod + Enhancement) Using average damage, and setting critical hits aside for a moment, the expected damage for each attacker (given both have +6 Str mod, +2 enhancement to greatsword, +2 enhancement to longsword, +2 enhancement to short sword) is probability of hitting * damage on hit: THF'er: 5/20 (+2 enhancement)*(7+9+2) = 4.5 TWF'er: 5/20*(4.5+6+2) + 5/20*(3.5+3+2) = 3.125 + 2.125 = 5.25 (!) Doing it again with +16 Str mod (equivalent to Str 42), +2 Greatsword, +2 Longsword, +2 Short sword: THF'er: 5/20*(7+24+2) = 8.25 TWF'er: 5/20*(4.5+16+2) + 5/20*(3.5+8+2) = 5.625 + 3.375 = 9 (!) This is misleading, too, of course: 2 +2 swords cost more than 1 +2 sword. Comparing a +3 Greatsword to a +2 Longsword and +2 Shortsword (18,000 versus 16,000 gp): THF'er: 6/20*(7+24+3) = 10.2 TWF'er: 5/20*(4.5+16+2) + 5/20*(3.5+8+2) = 9 So there is a difference, but note: 1. The difference is small (about a point per attack). Hardly worth arguing this much about. ;) 2. The difference is resource- rather than game-based. If you have the cash to spend, there is no difference (or even a TWF advantage). Of course you have a 16 in 20 chance of doing *some* damage at that point, which is certainly a lot better than the 17 in 20 chance of doing no damage at all, that the THW fighter has.. but the point I'm making is that your chances of doing your full damage is far less than you seemed to assume.I tried to illustrate the mathematics with a simple model. There are some other issues with TWF versus THF involving variance and standard deviation, but I hope my short answer here suggests that my results are more rigorous than you give them credit for. Now when you realize that the TWF tree requires more resources (double equipment, more feats, and, unless ranger, DEX) than the 2Handed fighting tree, I fail to see how you can suggest that they're equivalently powerful choices for a fighter-type.Feats are a big issue, as is gp cost and build flexibility. There are a lot of ways to build a good THF'er, whereas there's only a couple of ways to make a good TWF'er. That said, I think I've made it abundantly clear how I can suggest that they're equivalently powerful choices. Rolling more D20s in a round against opponents with high AC doesn´t mean you have more chance to hit... i disagree with that... completely.You disagree with the fundamental probabilistic concept that more chances increase the odds of more successes? That I have a better chance of rolling a 20 in 7 chances than you do in 4? Don't argue with me, argue with Blaise Pascal. Seriously, though: why is there so much hostility towards the idea that a two-weapon fighter can do a comparable amount of damage? My fundamental point is that if there is a difference, it is negligible. WotC designers have worked hard to make it so. Well... the important thing is that the 2 of them can do the job well :) with great funAmen, brother.
Caelic 02-15-05, 05:40 PM	'Course, Favored Enemy Power Attack in conjunction with Harper Paragon or Stalker of Kharash also does wonders for a THF character.
HoshiAdam 02-15-05, 06:24 PM	'Course, Favored Enemy Power Attack in conjunction with Harper Paragon or Stalker of Kharash also does wonders for a THF character.With Oversize TWF, it is even better with a TWF. :D
ZombieTonyBlair 02-15-05, 07:16 PM	If you're using a two headed weapon, like a staff or double axe, can you powerattack with the off hand attacks?
Otto the Bugbear 02-15-05, 07:24 PM	When you power attack, it applies to all attacks you make until the start of your next round. Thus it applies to your off hand attacks with a double weapon. Double weapons state that their off hand side is a light weapon, thus you gain no benefit (+ damage), but all the penalties (- to hit) for the off hand. That's mainly why Oversize TWF is such a popular feat around these parts. Cheers Otto :)
xanadu 02-15-05, 07:33 PM	True, but quibbling. I'm not sure point buy is the problem, either: you have three stats (Int, Wis, Cha) you can dump. With 25-pt buy, a human could start with Str 17, Dex 15, Con 12, Int/Wis/Cha 8, and be just fine. I'd kick you out of my party with a set-up like that. You have zero skills and a negative will save. If you aren't running away from a 1st level fear spell you'll have difficulty saving against, you will be held, charmed, dominated, or sleeping. the number of weapons you'll be using is zero in too many situations.
Teltharis 02-15-05, 07:56 PM	what about swashbuckler3/fighter4/champion of correllon2/tempest5/dervish5 Oversized two weapon fighting + twin thinblades + weapon finesse + int and dex to damage = doesn't require high str, but it always helps. Mix in a dash of keeness and collision and you've got one big damage dealing machine. Also, no penalties with either hand.
SwollenOstrich 02-15-05, 08:26 PM	First of all, I assume when you say thinblade you are speaking of an elven thinblade from complete warrior, which is a piercing weapin. Thus you would be unable to use it in the dervish dance. What books is collision and oversized two weapon fighting from?
HoshiAdam 02-15-05, 08:33 PM	Collision is in the Expanded Psionics HB (and possibly the SRD, haven't checked) OTWF is from Complete Adventurer
Teltharis 02-15-05, 08:43 PM	ohh, oops, didnt see the piercing part, hmm... 5 levels of rogue would lower the BAB by 2 but give 3d6 sneak + evasion + better reflex saves, and skills out the wazoo. Also, gives the possibility of Use Magic Device, for greater magic weapon wands, and what not. I think its a worthy trade off.
Lilt 02-15-05, 09:09 PM	Just thought I'd throw something into the debait: Spikes is a very effective 3rd level cleric/druid spell that adds up-to +10 damage to any wooden weapon. Give the TWFer the use of 2 3rd level spell slots and 2 weapons of his choice (Bronzewod from the Eberron Campaign Setting can be used to apply spikes to normally metal weapons) and he has a significant non-situational boost. The TWF can get the same boost, but due to how the damage bonuses work-out it's a bigger bonus to the TWFer. The difference between applying it to 1 weapon and applying it to 2 works-out at about 9k (the cost of a 3rd level pearl of power) if you particularily want to include that in any equipment calcs. The chameleon can make for excellent non-situationsl boosts to a TWFer thanks to the combat/divine focus at level 7 for both 18 hour spikes-castings (including a pearl of power at 4k) and +4 to attack and damage on all weapons. DR that you can't bypass is something that the TWFer fares less well against, however.
Mommy was an Orc 02-15-05, 11:34 PM	Because all you've really shown is that if someone spends about 11 feats(and likely a lot of levels on Fighter) on various TWF routines, they're roughly the equivalent of someone who spends 4 feats on THF who then fails to optimize... Seriously, though: why is there so much hostility towards the idea that a two-weapon fighter can do a comparable amount of damage? My fundamental point is that if there is a difference, it is negligible. WotC designers have worked hard to make it so.
pandoria 02-16-05, 03:14 AM	Hmmm,I like that alot. What about a Fullblade as a weapon instead of a bastered sword? Where can I find the cheamelean PreC?
Mommy was an Orc 02-16-05, 08:33 PM	A fullblade is just a large bastard sword in 3.5. Chameleon is in Races of Destiny - but if you click on the link on my .sig, there's a link to where it is on the wizards website. And a lot of builds... Hmmm,I like that alot. What about a Fullblade as a weapon instead of a bastered sword? Where can I find the cheamelean PreC?
frisbeet 02-17-05, 01:37 AM	I really tried. Really, I did. But it is impossible to come up with the quintessential THF or TWF. I’ve a little more experience with THF, so the comparison I offer here is biased. Indeed, THF wins in this comparison. Ultimately one needs to look at this stuff case-by-case. The power attack calculator spreadsheet on my site (signature) is one tool to help with this. It’s a little short on the “readme” file—you’ll want to be a bit cozy with Excel. But it’s free and can be readily messed with. Anyways, here’s a comparison in the spirit of eRaz0r’s challenge. THF Dude: Barbarian2/Fighter16/ExoticWeaponMaster2 Str 32 (16 ability + 5 level + 5 tome + 6 belt) Dex 16 Bastard Sword specific feats/stunts: Weapon Focus; Greater Weapon Focus; Weapon Specialization; Greater Weapon Specialization; Improved Critical; Uncanny Blow Other relevant feats: Extra Rage (rage 3x day); Power Attack He full attack rages for this comparison. Wields +10 bastard sword (200,000 gp): +5 speed flaming shock bastard sword. TWF Dude2: Fighter5/Dervish10/Tempest5 Str 29 (16 + 2 level + 5 tome + 6 belt) Dex 19 (16 + 3 level) Scimitar specific feats: Weapon Focus; Weapon Specialization; Improved Critical Other relevant feats/abilities: Dervish Dance grants +5 attack & damage bonus; Tempest Ambidexterity & Dervish Slashing Blades equate to a TWF penalty of 0 when wielding two scimitars; Power Attack. Dervish dances for this comparison. Wields two +8 scimitars (256,000 gp together): Scimitar1: +3 speed flaming shock scimitar Scimitar2: +5 flaming shocking-burst scimitar By spreadsheet I’ve calculated the maximum average full attack damage/round against ACs 10-50. This maximum is found by brutally calculating each average for all possible power attack values. I’d be happy to show my work, but having done this enough times over the last 2 years I can say with absolute certainty that the following numbers are exact (having rounded to 0.1). AC best PA TWF AC best PA THF difference 10 20 451.1 10 20 476.6 25.4 11 20 444.9 11 20 471.4 26.5 12 20 438.7 12 20 466.2 27.5 13 20 429.5 13 20 455.8 26.4 14 19 420.4 14 20 445.5 25.1 15 19 411.3 15 19 435.2 23.8 16 18 402.4 16 19 425.0 22.6 17 18 393.6 17 18 415.0 21.4 18 17 384.9 18 18 405.1 20.2 19 16 376.2 19 17 395.2 19.1 20 15 367.5 20 17 385.6 18.2 21 14 358.7 21 16 376.0 17.3 22 13 350.0 22 15 366.4 16.4 23 12 341.3 23 14 356.8 15.5 24 11 332.6 24 13 347.2 14.6 25 10 323.9 25 12 337.6 13.7 26 9 315.2 26 11 328.0 12.8 27 8 306.5 27 10 318.4 11.9 28 7 297.8 28 9 308.8 11.0 29 6 289.1 29 8 299.2 10.1 30 6 280.4 30 7 289.6 9.2 31 5 271.9 31 6 280.0 8.1 32 5 263.5 32 5 270.4 6.9 33 4 255.3 33 4 260.8 5.5 34 3 247.1 34 3 251.2 4.1 35 2 238.9 35 3 241.8 2.9 36 1 230.7 36 2 232.5 1.8 37 0 222.5 37 2 223.5 1.0 38 0 213.7 38 1 214.6 0.9 39 0 204.6 39 1 205.9 1.3 40 0 195.6 40 0 197.4 1.8 41 0 183.0 41 0 189.0 6.0 42 0 170.6 42 0 180.7 10.1 43 0 156.6 43 0 166.5 9.9 44 0 144.0 44 0 152.5 8.5 45 0 131.5 45 0 138.7 7.2 46 0 118.8 46 0 127.6 8.8 47 0 106.3 47 0 116.5 10.2 48 0 94.1 48 0 105.0 11.0 49 0 83.3 49 0 93.8 10.5 50 0 72.8 50 0 82.8 10.0 The point of this post is to invite but-what-about quesions, thereby proving that neither style wins hands-down every time. Also, free yourself from conjecture: use my spreadsheet or others like it to do exact comparisons. All the nuances of D&D make it very hard to find analytical (equations) answers to questions like this one.
Lilt 02-17-05, 07:12 AM	@frisbeet: Can I ask exactly why you have the weapon enhancements set-up like that? Specifically the TWF ones. Was that really what caculated to the most damage? Did you consider the colission special ability? I'd also suggest adding some more extra rage as rage 3/day is not nessecarily adequate for the reccomened 3-5 encounters per day. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the dervish can power attack at-all with scimitars. It's because the dervish treats them as light weapons y'see? Can I suggest a switch over to Oversized TWF and long-swords or bastard swords?
Mommy was an Orc 02-17-05, 08:24 AM	There's some problems with that - at that strength, it is better to aim for the extra range of critical that scimitar provides. But the big one is that this is the exact problem I'm referring to - his Dervish build has managed to use up every last one of his feats. He actually doesn't have that feat to use. Where the other build has I think 8-9 feats left... Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the dervish can power attack at-all with scimitars. It's because the dervish treats them as light weapons y'see? Can I suggest a switch over to Oversized TWF and long-swords or bastard swords?
HoshiAdam 02-17-05, 10:11 AM	But the big one is that this is the exact problem I'm referring to - his Dervish build has managed to use up every last one of his feats. He actually doesn't have that feat to use. Where the other build has I think 8-9 feats left...That does seem to be the problem. Optimizing for THF damage is easy and doesn't require many feats. But, because of OTWF, I think it can be said now that you can come close to the same level of damage as a THF without resorting to sneak attack. It takes a high feat investment, but it is doable now. And Lilt is correct, you can't PA with scimitars after taking a level of Dervish.
frisbeet 02-17-05, 10:23 AM	Gosh, "all purposes" sure is a $@#()%&* handicap for Slashing Blades. That sucks. Mommy was an Orc is right: this Dervish/Tempest build has used almost all of its 11 feats: Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Weapon Specialization, Dodge, Mobility, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighter, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Expertise, Power Attack. That's 10 necessary for my calculation (incorrect as Lilt points out for Slashing Blades) & class prerequisites (Spring Attack for Tempest from Dervish lvl 3). I had envisioned Cleave as the 11th feat--no other non-TWF feat consistently gets you more attacks. The numbers are posted below if I instead went with Oversized TWF and longswords combo. Anyway, it was my 1st TWF stab. I know there are more creative ones--Invisible Blades with Uncanny Feint comes to mind--but I'm best letting others posit such builds. For the THF dude, raging 3 times a day for most days ought to be enough. Plus I've got a bunch more feats to blow with THF. Combat Expertise + Improved Trip + Trip Stunt is one nice trick to have in your bag. Elusive Target then would grant more trip attempts--especially if THF also took three or so Dervish levels (who says you have to TWF to be a Dervish?) due to provoking AoO by dancing, which by virtue of Elusive Target enables a free trip attack. Indeed THF has more options available than TWF. That’s the real drawback. But I don’t think the argument hinges on mano a mano damage output comparison between the two, because the difference changes depending on condition. Here’s how the Dudes look not raging (THF Dude) and using Oversized TWF + Two-Weapon Versatility (TWF Dude). Each wields same weapons as before, except TWF Dude uses longswords, not scimitars. AC best PA TWF AC best PA THF difference 10 20 428.0 10 20 444.6 16.6 11 20 422.1 11 20 434.7 12.6 12 20 416.2 12 20 424.8 8.7 13 19 407.6 13 20 415.0 7.4 14 19 399.0 14 20 405.1 6.1 15 18 390.6 15 19 395.2 4.6 16 18 382.2 16 19 385.6 3.4 17 17 374.0 17 18 376.0 2.0 18 17 365.8 18 17 366.4 0.6 19 16 357.7 19 16 356.8 -0.9 20 15 349.7 20 15 347.2 -2.5 21 14 341.7 21 14 337.6 -4.0 22 13 333.6 22 13 328.0 -5.6 23 12 325.6 23 12 318.4 -7.2 24 11 317.5 24 11 308.8 -8.7 25 10 309.5 25 10 299.2 -10.3 26 9 301.5 26 9 289.6 -11.9 27 8 293.4 27 8 280.0 -13.4 28 7 285.4 28 7 270.4 -15.0 29 6 277.3 29 6 260.8 -16.5 30 5 269.3 30 5 251.2 -18.1 31 4 261.3 31 5 241.8 -19.5 32 4 253.4 32 4 232.5 -20.8 33 3 245.6 33 4 223.5 -22.1 34 3 237.9 34 3 214.6 -23.3 35 2 230.4 35 3 205.9 -24.5 36 1 222.8 36 2 197.4 -25.4 37 0 215.3 37 2 189.0 -26.2 38 0 206.7 38 1 180.9 -25.8 39 0 198.2 39 1 172.9 -25.3 40 0 189.6 40 0 165.1 -24.5 41 0 177.4 41 0 152.1 -25.2 42 0 165.2 42 0 139.3 -25.9 43 0 151.6 43 0 126.7 -24.9 44 0 139.6 44 0 116.6 -23.1 45 0 127.7 45 0 106.4 -21.3 46 0 115.6 46 0 96.0 -19.6 47 0 103.6 47 0 85.7 -17.9 48 0 91.5 48 0 75.7 -15.8 49 0 81.2 49 0 68.0 -13.2 50 0 71.1 50 0 60.4 -10.7 Please scroll right to see difference column. So, why these weapon enchantments? Calculating vs. AC precludes the Brilliant Energy, because then you'd just look at ACs 10-20. Ghost Touch, Defending, Wounding, etc. are nice accessories which don't effect the normal damage/round calculation--though you're probably better off with some of them. What's left: enchantment bonus, extra damage, and speed. So each Dude gets a speed weapon. Money-wise, I figure TWF should invest more than THF in his weapons, since he's already invested his feats in it. But I didn't want to double the amount to 400,000 gp. Therefore, two +8s for TWF, & one +10 for THF. That's clearly a judgement call, and another reason why one comparison shouldn't decide the issue. Turns out you're better off with a +1 flaming weapon than +2 weapon, even with power attack. So I tried to max extra D for all 3 weapons. Flaming, shock, and frost are the only extras available in DMG. Can't put frost with flame, as many DMs have a tough time with this. Dot dot dot. That's how I ended up with the weapons for this comparison. What's the "colission" special ability?
warningfireexit 02-17-05, 10:35 AM	Sword and shield has always been better then two handed weapons. At levels 1-12. After that the two weapon fighter spends enough feats to raise his/her ac and has enough dexterity to have caught up.
frisbeet 02-17-05, 10:39 AM	Regarding shields: For saving your ass, you betcha. Carry one if you're a THF Bastard Sword guy, you can always switch. And for that matter, if you TWF with longswords and meet a DR baddy, just wield one with two hands.
Lilt 02-17-05, 11:17 AM	For early levels a shield is a lifesaver, but once you can afford a +1 animated shield then damage output attainable with either two weapons or a two-handed weapon is probably going to save your ass more than the minor boost to AC would. If you want to consider other factors, such-as what else you can use your hands for, then consider that spellcasters are generally better-off with THF as then they can take one hand off the weapon to make somatic components with. The TWFer would have to drop one of his weapons, or possibly also invest in quickdraw (after countless feats attempting to optimise TWFing).
Pinky's brain 02-17-05, 12:07 PM	Has there ever been an explicit official ruling that an animated shield can give you a shield bonus while TWF/THF?
carnivore 02-17-05, 12:20 PM	from the SRD: Animated: Upon command, an animated shield floats within 2 feet of the wielder, protecting her as if she were using it herself but freeing up both her hands. Only one shield can protect a character at a time. A character with an animated shield still takes any penalties associated with shield use, such as armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, and nonproficiency. Strong transmutation; CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, animate objects; Price +2 bonus. :D
Pinky's brain 02-17-05, 01:01 PM	I knew you were going to say that, which is why I edited the question the moment after I posted it ... asking for an explicit ruling :)