Post/Author/DateTime	Post
blooddemon 10-28-04, 09:57 PM	Yes, Dervishes are some of the best mass killers out there. they get their diesel dance ability, high ref and will to compliment the fighter's high fort and such. The best races for the dervish is either xeph (the better choice) or an elf. Both get high dex for finesse (dervishes get slashing blades, which allows them to count scimitars as light weapons, as a special ability) and AC. Using the race and only 1 feat from the XPH (speed of thought) this is a CW and PHB heavy build. At 15th level a fighter 5 / dervish 10 can have up to 3 normal attacks a round as a full attack action with one weapon. if they dual weapon and have the appropriate feat tree, they can have another 3 attacks with an off hand weapon. the first attacks get a -2 penalty and the off hand is slightly weakened. if a dervish wields a slashing weapon they gain +1 on their attack and damage every odd level for a grand total of +5. With the Thousand Cuts extraordinary ability they can double their total number of attacks per turn to 12. and they get the benifit of great cleave for free, say goodbye to an unneeded skill tree, and hordes of weaker enemies. All this, mind you is a full round action. OH! But wait, the dervish could easily use the dervish dance to move and make a full attack action. *option* -XPH required Now with the Xeph's ability they can increase their speed by 10, making their speed 40 feet, now this is where some previous skill checks come into play, with the speed of thought feat, if you have a psionic focus add another 10 to that for a grand total of 50 feet. That my friends is just the offensive part, the dervish also gains an ac bonus from their class. Backtracking a few steps, if this is an elf that uses dual scimitars (call it a Drizzt clone if you want) and has some dice that favor the player, had a 20 dex at the start, put their bonus points into dexterity and have a +6 dex bonus to their AC, add the additional +3 with the class and having two weapon defense add a +1 that will get you with a total ac of 22 with some simple leather armor. This is assuming the player has no magical arms and armor, this can be greatly improved upon with 200,000 starting gold (from the DMG, starting a character at 15th level) Over looking one of the best Scimitar feats or abilities in the game improved critical and keen respectively (too bad they don't stack). Speed or Brilliant energy are also great. with an increased crit range of 16-20 that is a 20% chance to crit. -attacks per round- Primary BAB Dex TWF Slash Total +15 +6 -2 +5 = +24 +10 +6 -2 +5 = +19 + 5 +6 -2 +5 = +14 Off-Hand BAB Dex TWF Slash Total +15 +6 -2 +5 = +24 +10 +6 -2 +5 = +19 + 0 +6 -2 +5 = +9 W/O Thousand cuts +24/+24/+19/+19/+14/+14/+9/+9 W/ Thousand Cuts +24/+24/+24/+24/+19/+19/+19/+19/+14/+14/+9/+9 Please correct me if I am wrong, which I know I am because I am completely stupid.
blooddemon 10-28-04, 10:14 PM	Oh by the way, does anyone have a good Gnome spellsword build that uses UA's battle sorcerer. any links or anything would be great. 3.5 please
Pashia 10-28-04, 10:32 PM	With the Unearthed Arcanna flaw thing, would feat progression would you recommend? I'd like to make a Xeph dervish as my backup character. We have the following options for stats, 18 15 14 13 12 10, or rolling. I usually go with the option of set stats (you can move them around if you wish.) What would you recommend for my stat points and feat progression sir?
Karkul 10-29-04, 12:41 AM	At 15th level a fighter 5 / dervish 10 can have up to 3 normal attacks a round as a full attack action with one weapon. if they dual weapon and have the appropriate feat tree, they can have another 3 attacks with an off hand weapon. the first attacks get a -2 penalty and the off hand is slightly weakened. if a dervish wields a slashing weapon they gain +1 on their attack and damage every odd level for a grand total of +5. With the Thousand Cuts extraordinary ability they can double their total number of attacks per turn to 12. and they get the benifit of great cleave for free, say goodbye to an unneeded skill tree, and hordes of weaker enemies. I dont think fighter is the best base for Dervish, I think monk works much better. A monk 11/Dervish 9 flurrying with a speed(each end) enchanted double-bladed sword attacks at +15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+5/+0 (primary side) and +15/+15/+12/+7 (off hand side). Keep in mind, they can do this EVERY SINGLE ROUND. With 1 more level (epic) you can get the Thousand Cuts ability and nearly double that number. I like the idea you had of using a Xeph. As a Xeph you can get the speed of thought feet for an extra 10ft to your speed. Also I dont think you mentioned the speed bonuses from Dervish itself in your post. Dervish gets bonuses to speed at lvs 2, 5, and 8 for a total of +15 ft.
shadow mage 10-29-04, 01:14 AM	I dont think fighter is the best base for Dervish, I think monk works much better. A monk 11/Dervish 9 flurrying with a speed(each end) enchanted double-bladed sword attacks at +15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+5/+0 (primary side) and +15/+15/+12/+7 (off hand side). Keep in mind, they can do this EVERY SINGLE ROUND. With 1 more level (epic) you can get the Thousand Cuts ability and nearly double that number. I like the idea you had of using a Xeph. As a Xeph you can get the speed of thought feet for an extra 10ft to your speed. Also I dont think you mentioned the speed bonuses from Dervish itself in your post. Dervish gets bonuses to speed at lvs 2, 5, and 8 for a total of +15 ft. Not nearly double, literally double. Once per day anyway. Meh, I actually like the idea of a few levels of a Monk5/Shou Disciple5/Dervish10. He's got great speed, is never weaponless, and hits hard and often.
Karkul 10-29-04, 02:16 AM	Not nearly double, literally double. Once per day anyway. The two extra attacks from the speed enchantment (one primary, one offhand) do not get doubled, thats why I said nearly. Meh, I actually like the idea of a few levels of a Monk5/Shou Disciple5/Dervish10. He's got great speed, is never weaponless, and hits hard and often. If you forgoe the 11th level of monk (monk + shou disciple works too) you loose out of improved flurry, i.e. you loose one attack at your highest BAB per/round. The only thing you gain from that extra level of dervish is a thousand cuts, so your trading 1 extra attack every round for the ability to use a thousand cuts once per day. Not a really good trade off if you ask me.
Ipsissimus 10-29-04, 11:20 AM	Just remember to maximize your dance you need to use a slashing weapon of some sort...keep the kama's handy. As for monks? I feel they are better suited as Dervishes than just a few fighters levels. Gives more of the feel of dancing forms with blades and those pretty red and yellow sashes.
Karkul 10-29-04, 12:28 PM	Just remember to maximize your dance you need to use a slashing weapon of some sort...keep the kama's handy. If you have access to the Eberron book there is a new feat that allows you to flurry with a two-bladed sword also, and of course if you opt the shou disciple route, the martial flurry makes your choices easier as well.
Scandal 10-29-04, 12:47 PM	My favorite dervish build is: monk 2/ swashbuckler 3/ Invisible blade 5/ Dervish 10 using Kukri's.. and cobra strike monk from UA.. -Scan
Karkul 10-29-04, 01:23 PM	I don't have UA, so I im not certain what cobra strike does (does it add a sneak attack die?). Does it allow you to flurry with a Kukri? If not, then what is the purpose of the two monk levels?
Scandal 10-29-04, 01:26 PM	cobra strike monk give dodge and mobility and level 1 and 2 as the feats gained.. the other reason for monk is wis to ac and the base saves.. -Scan
Garilario 10-29-04, 01:45 PM	PHB+CW build Fighter 2/Rogue3/Invisible Blade5/Dervish5(and go 10 later as you're 15th level character) Human, Start as a rogue for even more skill points Rog1 Weapon Finese, TWF Rog1/Ftr1 Weapon Focus(Kukri) Rog1/Ftr2 Dodge, Combat Expertise Rog2/Ftr2 Rog3/Ftr2 Rog3/Ftr2/InB1 Mobility Rog3/Ftr2/InB2 Rog3/Ftr2/InB3 Rog3/Ftr2/InB4 ITWF(BAB 8 here) Rog3/Ftr2/InB5 Rog3/Ftr2/InB5/Der1 Rog3/Ftr2/InB5/Der2 GTWF(BAB 11 here) Rog3/Ftr2/InB5/Der3 Rog3/Ftr2/InB5/Der4 Rog3/Ftr2/InB5/Der5 Whatever Feat Rog3/Ftr2/InB5/Der6 Rog3/Ftr2/InB5/Der7 Rog3/Ftr2/InB5/Der8 Whatever Feat Rog3/Ftr2/InB5/Der9 Rog3/Ftr2/InB5/Der10 At 15th level, you have 14 BAB, with 2 kukri you're doing +12/+12/+7/+7/+2/+2 [+dex bonus +3(from dervish) +1(Focus)] i.e. +16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6 full attack, which ALL of them could be sneak attack. While dancing, you can feint(free)->SA->move->feint->repeat. Each attack does 1d4(kukri) + 5d6(SA) +3(dervish) +str and whatever bonus damage. Sounds good enough?
Zathyr 10-29-04, 01:48 PM	The two extra attacks from the speed enchantment (one primary, one offhand) do not get doubled, thats why I said nearly. Wait, you can benefit from two weapons of speed? I thought you could only get an extra attack from 1 in any given round.
blooddemon 10-29-04, 02:04 PM	If you are playing Eberron go right ahead with the double steel strike feat. but if you play greyhawk or feyrun(don't really like feyrun or however you spell it) go fighter up to level 4 then get 1 level of barb for fast movement. BTW thanks for pointing out the dervish speed bonus to me. W/O furhter adieu (sp?) here is a xeph dervish: Xeph ftr4/barb1/derv10 Medium humanoid Hit Dice 14d10+28 +1d12+2 (err...) Initiative +8 Speed 55 (+10 w/ psi focus) Armor Class 19 (+6 dex +3 class) Base attack +15/+10/+5 Attack +24 (1d6 18-20/x2 Scimitar) Full attack +24/+19/+14 (1d6 scimitar) and +24/+19/+11 (1d6 scimitar); or +24/+24/+24/+24/+19/+19/+19/+19/+14/+14/+11/+11 (two 1d6 scimitars)with Thousand cuts SA dervish dance, thousand cuts; SQ xeph traits, elaborate parry, slashing blades; EX AC bonus, Movement mastery, fast movement +25 (+15 dervish, +10 barb) Saves Fort Stats: STR 10 (not really required, this is just bare bones 3rd highest priority) DEX 23 (18 + xeph nat + 3 stat increases) CON 15 (second most important stat IMO) INT 12 (more skill points to put into dance and concentrate for psi focus) WIS 10 (not required) CHA 10 (not required) Skills: tumble +26, dance + 18, concentrate +11 and extra 22 to spend if math is correct (you can buy skills retroactivley right? right...) Feats: 9?!? speed of thought, two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting, weapon finesse, Combat expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon focus (scimitar) Possesions: 2 scimitars 199,970 gp This is a variable build money, armor and weapon - wise, I doubt you will have only two normal scimitars. I was very very conservitive with the stats to allow for expansion. Please correct my math, or anything else I have done wrong... 9 feats doesn't sound right.
Zathyr 10-29-04, 02:29 PM	Fighter 4/Barb 1 will get you xp penalties. You may want to consider Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Barb 1 instead.
JosephKell 10-29-04, 02:51 PM	Hmm... Valenar Elves would make great Dervishs. They can take Double Steel Strike at level 2 or 6 in Monk as a bonus feat but it applies to Double Scimitars instead of a Double Sword. Valenar Elves are partly detailed in Eberron, but moreso online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041011a). Their racial stats are almost the same as normal elves. Instead of Longsword Proficiency they gain Scimitar Proficiency. And I think the Valenar Elf's favored class is Monk (Jaeldira). Valenar Elf Fighter 2/Monk 8/Dervish 10 (Ftr 2/Mnk 4 then take Monastary Training or whatever the multiclassing Monk feat is during Dervish).
scrollreader 10-29-04, 03:00 PM	Wizard is still, unfortunately, the favored class of the Valenar. They still make awesome dervishes though. And they /should/.
Scandal 10-29-04, 03:04 PM	Another Dervish build I like is: Swashbuckler 3/ Fighter 2/ Occultslayer 5/ Dervish 10 -Scan
blooddemon 10-29-04, 03:15 PM	Well, I'm trying to make my build as generic and conservitave as possible to allow people to use whatever customization they want. BTW, me and my friend were testing my elf build and she cut through 23 3rd level orc barbarians in one dance/thousand cuts. The Idea of the monk that can use the double blade is pretty good. that may be my next build of the dervish. Any other full builds (MM stat blocks please, like the xeph above) up to level 15 would be cool if any others have a diesel build. Try to allow some room for customization on the players part. To the person that brought up xp penalties, we don't use those, since they don't truly hinder people when fighting lots of high level monsters (or ad hoc xp for fighting huge hordes of weaker monsters). Especially with our DM that has no qualms about throwing ~12 kolbolds at a 2nd level party.
Karkul 10-29-04, 06:21 PM	Wait, you can benefit from two weapons of speed? I thought you could only get an extra attack from 1 in any given round. I know this was possible in 3.0, it could have changed since then. It doesn't seriously change the build either way (just take off one of the off hand attacks if it doesnt stack).
Garilario 10-29-04, 10:49 PM	Xeph ftr4/barb1/derv10 Dervish Requires 5 ranks in perform(dance), which are not class skills for fighter nor barbarian. So how could you qualify it at ftr4/bbn1 at the first place?
Tealgorthian 10-29-04, 11:33 PM	Dervish Requires 5 ranks in perform(dance), which are not class skills for fighter nor barbarian. So how could you qualify it at ftr4/bbn1 at the first place? Dont have my book right here with me, but I think it is 3 ranks in Perform (Dance). And you can use Cross-Class skills
Karkul 10-30-04, 02:15 AM	its only 3 ranks
blooddemon 10-31-04, 07:28 AM	Is the two bladed sword finessable? Don't have my books on me so I can't check. and it is 3 ranks in dance and tumble. I love the dervish and I know it really well.
BenjCano 10-31-04, 09:50 AM	When you use a double weapon, all of your off-hand attacks are considered made with a light weapon for purposes of assessing two-weapon fighting penalties. An interesting corollary to this would suggest that your off hand weapon attacks are applicable for the weapon finesse feat. See the descriptions of Quarterstaff, double axe, hook hammer, two-bladed sword, and urgrosh on pages 115. Your primary hand attacks, however, receive no such stipulation, so my guess is that weapon finesse would not apply. A few off prestige class abilities allow you to treat both sides of certain double weapons as light weapons. . .see the Monkey Shen on page 72 of Dragon 319. An interesting Monk/Dervish build would use the cobra strike monk varient, and a one or two level dip into Initiate of the Draconig Mysteries. This would make your unarmed attacks deal slashing damage, and thus use the dervish package with your wicked claws o' doom.
Jarlaxle_The_Rogue 10-31-04, 11:26 AM	Well if you have UA you can use the option to replace fighter bonus feats with Sneak Attack Damage, and then you start getting some truly brutal damage dealing abilities. If you have a cool DM he might allow you to sub about another class skill for Perform (Dance) or maybe take a feat that adds that to you class list.
mook 11-01-04, 02:25 AM	For those of you with Races of Stone, take a look at a Peregrine Runner / Dervish combo. No full progression (real job takes up too much of my time), but here's an overview (only 19 levels b/c PR requires Goliath, which is +1 LA): Ranger 3 / Barbarian 1 / Fighter 2 / Peregrine Runner 6 / Dervish 7 Alignment: any nonlawful (I'd go with neutral, personally) Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Run, Weapon Focus (scimitar), Improved TWF, Greater TWF, Monkey Grip, Improved Critical (scimitar). PROS: Dervish dance 4/day + Skirmish +1/+2d6 (+1 AC / +2d6 damage to ALL ATTACKS in a round when you move 10'+) Great Stamina (immune to fatigue, exhausted -> fatigued) Free Spring Attack (for those times when you can't/won't dance) Speed 60' (30 base, +10 bbn, +10 PR, +10 (enhancement) Dervish) Can wield huge scimitar (2d6, Powerful build + Monkey grip) in primary hand and large scimitar (1d8, Powerful build) in off-hand (yes, they're both light weapons thanks to slashing blades). Increase size 1 level (enlarge person, anyone?) and this becomes 3d6 primary / 2d6 off-hand. BAB 17, 7 attacks/round: +15/+10/+5/+0 at 2d6/15-20(x2) primary and +15/+10/+5 at 1d8/15-20(x2) secondary. While dancing (if you move at least 10'), this becomes +19/+14/+9/+4 at 2d6+4/15-20(x2)+2d6 and +19/+14/+9 at 1d8+4/15-20(x2)+2d6. And that's without strength bonuses, weapon enhancement bonues/special abilities, etc. Decent saves: +15/+13/+8 (may have added wrong - please check). Decent hp: 3d8 + 1d12 + 2d10 + 6d8 + 7d10. A good number of skill points: 3x6 + 1x4 + 2x2 + 6x6 + 7x4, as well as a decent selection of class skills. Other crunchy bits: Track, 1 favored enemy, rage 1/day, Climb 20', Slow Fall 20', Movement Mastery, Dance of Death, etc. CONS: High feat requirements (Dodge, Mobility, Expertise, WF, Endurance, Run): only one bonus feat applies to requirements, only 4 discretionary feats (and they're pretty much decided if you want to make the most of Skirmish). High skill requirements (Perform dance 3, Tumble 3, Climb 9, Jump 9, Diplomacy 4, Handle Animal 4). Need to max perform (so dance lasts longer) and tumble (to avoid AoP while dancing). Suffers from mad MAD: need Int 13 (expertise) and Dex 15 (-2 b/c Goliath = 13 [Dodge], +6 from magic item = 19 [Greater TWF]). Also need good Str and Con (front-line fighter type with only okay hp, less than full BAB, and probably low AC). Plus, Will save low enough that you probably don't want to go Wis 8 - leaving Cha as the only dump stat. +13 Ref save, restricted to light armor w/no shield, and doesn't have evasion! Does not get the iconic Dervish ability: A Thousand Cuts! Variant 1: Drop a level of Fighter and the Monkey Grip feat and replace the Huge and large scimitars with a large double scimitar. Take a level of Exotic Weapon Master - choose Flurry of Strikes as your exotic weapon stunt (extra attack at highest BAB, but -2 to all attacks in the round). Note: leads to multiclass XP penalty! Variant 2: As above, but drop level of Barbarian instead of Fighter - lose 10' of speed, but come out 1 feat ahead with no XP penalty. Variant 3 (requires UA): Buy off your +1LA ASAP, drop the barbarian level, and add 2 levels of Cobra Strike monk variant. This gives you Dodge and Mobility as bonus feats, which means you end up two feats ahead! You also end up with better saves (+16/+16/+11) and evasion! Woo-hoo! If you can burn a feat to use your new flurry of blows ability with scimitars, go to town. On the minus side, your speed is only 50', and you replace 1d12 of hp with 1d8 (plus the additional 1d8 from the second monk level). Variant 4 (also requires UA): As above, but take the Passive Way monk variant instead of Cobra Strike. This gives you Expertise and Improved Trip as bonus feats, so you're only 1 feat ahead. But because they're both monk bonus feats, you don't have to qualify for the prerequisites - which means you no longer need an Int of 13! And you can still take feats that require Expertise as long as they don't explicitly require a 13 Int (so you can take Karmic Strike, but not Whirlwind Attack). Note that I haven't worked out all the skill dependencies, so I don't know what Int score you'll need in order to qualify for the PrC by level 6 or 7. Plus, you may need a decent Int for skill points if you want to keep perform and tumble high - esp if you also want good scores in hide & move silently (they're class skills for 11 out of 20 levels with this variant, so you may as well use them). Oh, and don't forget survival - may as well get some use out of that free track feat. Note: don't bother trying to work in an extra monk level for the 10' speed bonus (it and the Dervish's speed bonus are both enhancement, and thus do not stack). Well, there you have it. I'm sure there are better PR/Dervish builds, but I'll leave them them up to you for now. Need sleep....
darczero 11-01-04, 03:31 AM	Anthropomorphic squid, Scimitar in each hand, Weapon Finesse, Speed enchantment on each scimitar; other class is virtually irrelevant (other than securing your 16 BAB by 20th level). Thousand Cuts is almost a literal statement, if you're fighting a horde of really little things. I'm not even going to try to calculate that again; let's just say that it blows every two-weapon fighter out of the water. As a final note, Dervish Dance doesn't say you need to move in a straight line. Eight five-foot steps per round is one complete circle around a five-foot facing, right? Using Dervish Dance (and even Thousand Cuts), you could make mincemeat of anything bigger than you too. Not just many small things (that's where Cleave and Great Cleave come in).
lostone 11-01-04, 07:31 AM	Anthropomorphic squid, Scimitar in each hand, Weapon Finesse, Speed enchantment on each scimitar; other class is virtually irrelevant (other than securing your 16 BAB by 20th level). Thousand Cuts is almost a literal statement, if you're fighting a horde of really little things. What book is the Anthropomorphic Squid in? And does Speed on multiple weapons stack? I thought there was errata against that, or am I mistaken (I hope I am).
lostone 11-01-04, 11:43 AM	Ok...found Anthropomorphic Squid (Savage Species p214). But I have a question as to how many tentacle attacks you expect it to get. The normal squid doesn't say, it lists Arms +4 melee (0), whereas the giant squid lists 10 tentacles +15 melee (1d6+8). So are you using the giant squid in this build even though it's just listed as anthropomorphic squid, or are you assuming the normal squid has the same number of tentacle attacks as the giant squid?
crazysamaritan 11-01-04, 01:54 PM	If you guys do a search on Blaine_Furntog, you'll find my shifter with a potential 100' speed. 10' from barbarian, 10' from Celerity, 20' from shift, 30' from expeidious retreat (domain spell) base speed of 30' so 100' Normally 50', the only enchancement is 30' from expedious retreat.
Moon-Lancer 11-01-04, 02:28 PM	This may not be a awsome build but this is something i came up with. 4 levels of rouge (you get evasion and improved evasion) 3 levels of swashbuckler (if you have high int) 1 level fighter (for the stuped feat) then dervish for the rest. you could also just take 2 levels in rouge and pick them up later for improved evashion. with good int and good dex and ok str you can do some nice damage, and have a DEXed out charicter. this is a build if you cant stand being human. If you are human then you dont need a level in fighter and your options looser.
Tenken 11-01-04, 02:38 PM	If you guys do a search on Blaine_Furntog, you'll find my shifter with a potential 100' speed. 10' from barbarian, 10' from Celerity, 20' from shift, 30' from expeidious retreat (domain spell) base speed of 30' so 100' Normally 50', the only enchancement is 30' from expedious retreat. If you like speed THAT much, add in a Boots of Striding and Springing for +10ft, Dash feat for +5ft, Blade Dancer10 for +60ft (Or just Blade Dancer1 for +30ft.)
crazysamaritan 11-01-04, 05:05 PM	If you like speed THAT much, add in a Boots of Striding and Springing for +10ft, Dash feat for +5ft, Blade Dancer10 for +60ft (Or just Blade Dancer1 for +30ft.) How many of those are enchancement? Expedious retreat is the only enchancement bonus. which means I can go awhile at 70'. (not too long, it depends on how you work the feats and what level you're at)
Tenken 11-01-04, 05:10 PM	Not sure. Boots of Striding and Springing is in the DMG, you can check that for yourself. I THINK everything else is an unnamed bonus, so they stack.
crazysamaritan 11-01-04, 05:15 PM	Not sure. Boots of Striding and Springing is in the DMG, you can check that for yourself. I THINK everything else is an unnamed bonus, so they stack. IIRC, it's based on Expedious Retreat (and is in 3o) so it wouldn't stack. I know dash (although getting it for the 5' would only be for if I wanted to break the sound barrier), but I can't recall where Blade Dancer is from.
Tenken 11-01-04, 05:32 PM	IIRC, it's based on Expedious Retreat (and is in 3o) so it wouldn't stack. I know dash (although getting it for the 5' would only be for if I wanted to break the sound barrier), but I can't recall where Blade Dancer is from. Blade Dancer is from Oriental Adventures. It's a prc.
blooddemon 11-01-04, 06:08 PM	An okay build for a dervish human would be to go pally, kidof a good idea that just popped into my head. my friend wanted to make a Barb Dervish, but the dance doesn't stack with rage or frenzy, which kinda stinks, but thats ok. If someone has the time, make a bastard sword dervish which has a great chance to deal great damage.
Battousai 11-01-04, 06:17 PM	I once made a scythe wielding Fighter/Disciple of Dispater/Dervish...it was nasty. Don't have my books handy ,but a PsyWar prefix could result in something fun.
blooddemon 11-01-04, 08:30 PM	where is this disciple of dispater located? my friend was messing around and talked about a dwarven (we digressed into either a kolbold or something weak) monk dervish in eberron. of corse with one of the style feats that allows swords. I would die laughing if i saw this little dude dancing around with two scimitars cutting everything up. I was enlightened that a 3.0 prc the tempest or something, has to do with twf, is it any good? Using Unearhed arcana, the rule about buying off the level adjustments and all, what great builds could ensue, im thinking tiefling. now if you say Drow, I would cry... then smack you. I am brainstorming (man wish that was a smiley, I would change my screen name to that) that an elocater with scorn earth and all would be cool to see, might not be practical though, what other psionic classes would be good (soulknife and psycic warrior come to mind.)
lostone 11-02-04, 12:15 PM	I haven't played either, but Dervish seems much more devestating than Tempest, especially if you spend other feats to pick up the two weapon fighting for Dervish. Tempest only did TWF, didn't really do anything else that I remember being impressive, the Dervish seems impressive all around, especially when you take all 10 levels of it.
blooddemon 11-02-04, 08:01 PM	now if somehow you could combine dervish and tempest you could be a whirling frenzy of doom and destruction. No, you would become one of those monsters from the monster manual that is just a whirlwind of weapons. once I finish my whole human dervish build it would be over. well, does skill focus add skill points in a skill or is it just a misc. bonus?
Zathyr 11-03-04, 02:33 AM	Skill focus just gives a bonus. And Paladin Dervishes aren't bad at all. Divine Might works fine in the dance, and they have a few spells that could be pretty useful. With saves like that, you definately want to be sure you pick up evasion somehow - with the ring if necessary.
Sang-Drax 11-03-04, 04:07 PM	I don't understand how can you even remember Tempest. It's one of the worst classes around! Dervish completely kicks its ass! Disciple Of Dispater is in the Book Of Vilre Darkness, btw I wouldn't choose paladin over fighter for a dervish build... bonus feats are really useful for Dervish builds.
blooddemon 11-03-04, 07:26 PM	okay, i guess I will not even consider the tempest. I would most likely get a ftr build because I could, with some work, get the good pally feats. now a good idea for a dervish could be a rouge, with the right conditions, you could get some beastly sneak attack while in the dance, or is a sneak attack a full action?
Zathyr 11-03-04, 10:40 PM	Nope, any and every attack can be a sneak attack. In fact, wasn't the dervish/invisible blade build in this thread? Argh, too many dervish threads, I get them all mixed up..
lostone 11-04-04, 09:54 AM	Invisible Blade & Dervish build? I haven't run across that yet, but the possibilities sound very intriguing, can post a link here?
Effling 11-04-04, 10:10 AM	If you're doing Gestalt and have access to the Rokugan ninja, this might be fun: One side: Pixie 4/Swashbuckler 5/Rogue 6/Invisible Blade 5 Other side: Ninja 10/Dervish 10 You should be able to qualify for Inivisible Blade so that by 10th level, you can start taking Dervish as your other class.
mellowship 11-05-04, 11:43 PM	*option* -XPH required Now with the Xeph's ability they can increase their speed by 10, making their speed 40 feet, now this is where some previous skill checks come into play, with the speed of thought feat, if you have a psionic focus add another 10 to that for a grand total of 50 feet. If you're going to be using stuff from the XPH and are starting at 15th level, make your dervish a thri-kreen. The extra arms and the speed boost synergize really well with dervish. This is a variation of a build which I played in some Living Planar modules: 32 points to build with. Str 21 (13 points, +2 racial, +2 level-up) Dex 18 (6 points, +4 racial) Con 14 (6 points) Int 13 (6 points, -2 racial, +1 level-up) Wis 10 (0 points, +2 racial) Cha 5 (1 point, -4 racial) 1-2 +2 Level Adjustment. 3-4 Racial HD. Take Dodge. Put 5 ranks into Listen, Spot, and Jump. 5 Barbarian 1. Take Weapon Focus: Scimitar. Rage is deadweight, but you could use the speed boost. 6 Fighter 1. Put your level-up point into Int. Take Mobility. 7 Rogue 1. Start putting ranks into Tumble and Perform: Dance. 8 Rogue 2. Evasion is nice. Take Combat Expertise. 9 Dervish 1. 10 Dervish 2. Point your level-up point into Str. 11 Dervish 3. Take Multiweapon Fighting. 12 Dervish 4. 13 Dervish 5. 14 Dervish 6. Put your level-up point into Str. Take Quick Draw. 15 Dervish 7. And that's your build at 15th level. You can Dervish Dance 4 times a day, with +4 to hit and damage. With haste, you can get 7 attacks with your scimitars and have a base move of 80 feet. Optimum items to get (besides the usual stat and save boosters) are four Wounding scimitars and some Boots of Speed. To finish out the build, take Dervish to 10 and another level each of Fighter and Barbarian, so you end up as a Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Rogue 2/Dervish 10. At 15th and 18th level, take Improved Multiweapon Fighting and Greater Multiweapon Fighting. At 20th, you'll be able to Dervish Dance 5 times a day with +5 to hit and damage, and have 14 attacks per round with Haste. With your Thousand Cuts on, you get 28 attacks. Since you'll be doing 1 point of Con damage per attack with your Wounding scimitars, just about any enemy with a Con score is going to be dogmeat in short order. Constructs and undead are your main weakness.
blooddemon 11-06-04, 04:35 PM	I sorta didnt want soemthing with LA, but I heard that there is a buyoff for la in unearthed arcan or something. if you could do that you could be a githzeri and own with a +6 dex. four scimitars of wounding ouchies :) if you took 5 levels of fighter and got multiweapon fighting, imp mwf and wpfinesse as a couple of your feats you would really hurt people *wince* 26 attacks w/ con damage each attack*
lostone 11-07-04, 10:21 AM	I sorta didnt want soemthing with LA, but I heard that there is a buyoff for la in unearthed arcan or something. if you could do that you could be a githzeri and own with a +6 dex. four scimitars of wounding ouchies :) if you took 5 levels of fighter and got multiweapon fighting, imp mwf and wpfinesse as a couple of your feats you would really hurt people *wince* 26 attacks w/ con damage each attack*A few things confuse me about your post. Githzerai have 2 arms, not 4. How're you getting con damage with each attack and 26 attacks at 5 fighter levels? But yes, the level adjustment buyoff is a pretty good deal, the rules are straightforward, and even though it costs experience to buy off the level adjustment, in the long run your character will be more powerful because of it.
blooddemon 11-07-04, 06:55 PM	well I was talking about a thri-kreen, sorry for the mix up, that was my bad. the poster above said that they got 26 attacks a round, I havent looked yet, but the last couple could never hit with the cumulative penalty for the attacks.
Garilario 11-07-04, 09:55 PM	Invisible Blade & Dervish build? I haven't run across that yet, but the possibilities sound very intriguing, can post a link here? Check out page one of this thread. Edit: add my latest build here: Fighter 4/Barbarian2/Dervish10/(Then I don't know what to add) 4 Human, Start as a Bbn Bbn1 Dodge, Mobility Bbn1/Ftr1 Combat Expertise Bbn1/Ftr2 Improved Trip, Weap Focus(Scythe) Bbn1/Ftr3 Bbn1/Ftr4 Weap Spec(Scythe) Bbn2/Ftr4 Elusive Target Dervish 1~10 Feats: Make your Character Unique Whatever 4 My choices for feats @lv9,12,15,18 are: Quick Draw, Power Critical, Improved Critical and Improved Initiative @Lv16: Ftr4/Bbn2/Der10 BAB:16 Base Save: 10/8/8 (Nice?) Movement: 30' base +10' Bbn +15' Der + 10' Boots =65' AC: 10base +4dex +4chainshirt +3 class=21 Fighting Defensively(with tumble!) + Combat Expertise 5 = +8 Mobility +4 So in a dance, walking around with 33 AC(High enough or not? If not then take Improved Combat Expertise to make it 38) generating AoOs. Trip them after they miss as a free attack, and get another free attack from improved trip. Finally chop the prone opponent into pieces with other attacks. If still having some attacks or movement left, repeat on other oppoenet.
lostone 01-20-05, 09:47 AM	:bump: I'm looking at a dervish build for a gestalt game. Right now I'm thinking of two-headed anthropomorphic squid if I can get it by my DM :devil:. I won't be able to, and am mostly asking to watch the reaction on his face. But if not, this is what I'm thinking about: Fighter 10/Dervish 10///Monk 2/Initiate of Draconic Mysteries 2/Scout 16 Using extra feats from Fighter and leveling up towards TWF feats. Cobra Strike variant for Monk. Custom magic items are not typically a problem in our games if we can afford them, so I'll pick up an Amulet of Natural Attacks with Wrathful healing and other goodies. If I can take the anthro squid (which if the DM is foolish enough to allow I'll disillusion him quickly) I'd drop some fighter levels and buy off all the LA I could. Tweaks and suggestions?
Sir Gummibaerchen 01-20-05, 11:36 AM	If you are going TWF, Tempest5 is close to mandatory, esp. since you get spring attack from Dervish. I Put a build together for a standart-twf, you should be able to flesh out the oter 20 levels: Sources: Mini-HB, CAdv, CW, DMG, PHB Human Swashbuckler3\Fighter2\Dervish10\Tempest 5 BAB +20/15/10/5, Saves 13/9/9, 20d10 + 20*conmod HP Stats (28 pb) Str 10 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 10 1 Swa1 - Weapon finesse (v), dodge, mobility 2 Swa1\Ftr1 - Two-weapon fighting 3 Swa2\Ftr1 - Combat expertise 4 Swa3\Ftr1 5 Swa3\Ftr2 - Weapon focus (scimitar) 6 Swa3\Ftr2\Der1 - Improved two-weapon fighting 7 Swa3\Ftr2\Der2 8 Swa3\Ftr2\Der3 - Spring attack (v), 9 Swa3\Ftr2\Der3\Tem1 - Combat Reflexes 10 Swa3\Ftr2\Der3\Tem2 11 Swa3\Ftr2\Der3\Tem3 12 Swa3\Ftr2\Der3\Tem4 - Greater two-weapon fighting 13 Swa3\Ftr2\Der4\Tem4 14 Swa3\Ftr2\Der5\Tem4 15 Swa3\Ftr2\Der6\Tem4 - Karmic strike 16 Swa3\Ftr2\Der7\Tem4 17 Swa3\Ftr2\Der8\Tem4 18 Swa3\Ftr2\Der9\Tem4 - Double Hit 19 Swa3\Ftr2\Der10\Tem4 20 Swa3\Ftr2\Der10\Tem5 If you don't like karmic strike and double hit, pick elusive target and improved initiative instead. You don't need combat reflexes then, although it is really nice to have in a dex-heavy build. Put your stat increases into dex, get a +5 tome and a nice +6 enhancement item for 12 AoOs/round, all hitting twice with double hit.
RadicalTaoist 01-20-05, 02:07 PM	lol, diesel dance. Is it bad for the environment (I'm reading a typo in the first post) I'm playing the early stages of a bard/swashbuckler/warchanter/dervish build. He'll use the Snowflake Wardance feat to devastating effect. You can find him in the Natty Builds o' Power threadlink in my sig.
Azaar 01-20-05, 04:40 PM	Sang-Drax wrote: I don't understand how can you even remember Tempest. It's one of the worst classes around! Dervish completely kicks its ass! You don't have Complete Adventurer yet, do you? Tempest is now a 5-level PrC that gives you bonuses to AC when wielding two weapons (or a double weapon), lessened TWF penalties, the boon of versatility with the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feats (and their Greater counterparts, as well as Improved Critical), and a two-weapon spring attack. It is far better now than before. I'm gonna start looking at Fighter 5/Tempest 5/Dervish 10 as a build to optimize... and so far, I'll say that it looks very, very nasty.
Mikal 01-20-05, 04:43 PM	An invis blade/dervish build basically uses kukri's. it's similiar to the tempest build above, but rather then tempest, you take advantage of the invis blade's sneak attack and free feinting. Ftr 2/Sws 3/Invis Blade 5/Dervish 10 Stats are Dex, Int, Con, Str, Wis, Cha, basically.
mook 01-21-05, 12:38 AM	For even more fun, combine Karmic Strike and Double Hit with High Sword Low Axe. Bard 1 / Barbarian (UA - Wolf Totem) 2 / Fighter 2 / Psychic Warrior 2 / Warchanter 3 / Dervish 10 If you want evasion (and don't mind the BAB hit), replace the Fighter levels with the Feat Rogue from Unearthed Arcana. Replace X Dervish levels with Tempest if you so desire. I'm just (ab)using the PsiWar levels for the feats - you can replace them with four more levels of Fighter (or 2 Fighter + 2 Ranger) if necessary (though you won't be able to take all 10 levels of Dervish). Race: Human Stats (28 pt): Str 14 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 8 Add your first level-up to Dex. Put the rest wherever you want (I'd go with Con myself). BAB: +18/+13/+8/+3 Base Saves: 15/10/10 Feats: Dodge, Mobility, TWF, WF (long sword), WF (battleaxe), High Sword Low Axe, Combat Reflexes, Imp TWF, Double Hit, Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Karmic Strike (plus Improved Trip from Barb and Spring Attack from Dervish). Use the Warchanter's Inspire Recklessness to launch full-BAB full attacks (with Power Attack maxed) while using Karmic Strike (six attacks, each at +18 damage, but you're at -22 AC). Whenever someone hits you in melee, you get an AoO (Karmic Strike) plus an off-hand attack (Double Hit). If both attacks hit, you get to make a free trip attempt (High Sword Low Axe). If your trip attempt succeeds, you get a free attack (Improved Trip). In summary: anyone who hits you with a melee attack risks being knocked prone PLUS three attacks at full BAB with +18 to damage per attack. And if this person stands up, he provokes an AoO (two attacks thanks to Double Hit). If you get a Dex-enhancing +5 tome and a +6 item, you'll have 10 AoOs per round. Let the good times roll.
catharz 01-21-05, 01:01 AM	In summary: anyone who hits you with a melee attack risks being knocked prone PLUS three attacks at full BAB with +18 to damage per attack. And if this person stands up, he provokes an AoO (two attacks thanks to Double Hit). If you get a Dex-enhancing +5 tome and a +6 item, you'll have 10 AoOs per round. Let the good times roll. Nice. I woulden't use it with a dervish (I don't really like the PrC), but nice.
lostone 01-21-05, 10:26 AM	Use the Warchanter's Inspire Recklessness to launch full-BAB full attacks (with Power Attack maxed) while using Karmic Strike (six attacks, each at +18 damage, but you're at -22 AC). Whenever someone hits you in melee, you get an AoO (Karmic Strike) plus an off-hand attack (Double Hit). If both attacks hit, you get to make a free trip attempt (High Sword Low Axe). If your trip attempt succeeds, you get a free attack (Improved Trip). In summary: anyone who hits you with a melee attack risks being knocked prone PLUS three attacks at full BAB with +18 to damage per attack. And if this person stands up, he provokes an AoO (two attacks thanks to Double Hit). If you get a Dex-enhancing +5 tome and a +6 item, you'll have 10 AoOs per round.I've gotta be missing something (IDHTBWM and don't remember Warchanter's Inspire Recklessness ability), so I'll ask. I thought you were limited to one attack of opportunity against a specific enemy each round. Sure you can take more with combat reflexes, but only one at each target. What above is changing that? And does Double Hit apply during attack of opportunities, or only during full attack rounds (on your turn)?
mook 01-21-05, 10:05 PM	Nice. I woulden't use it with a dervish (I don't really like the PrC), but nice. Dervish is a good choice for this build, but not necessarily the best one. Personally, I'd go Warmind 10. And since you no longer need Mobility, that leaves you with a free feat (or the option of being nonhuman). If you're using the LA buyoff rules, a goliath would be awesome (though the Dex penalty would hurt). Powerful build + augmented expansion + sweeping strike + (potentially) 3 attacks and a trip every time someone hits you = fun for the whole family.
mook 01-21-05, 10:38 PM	I've gotta be missing something (IDHTBWM and don't remember Warchanter's Inspire Recklessness ability), so I'll ask. I thought you were limited to one attack of opportunity against a specific enemy each round. Sure you can take more with combat reflexes, but only one at each target. What above is changing that? And does Double Hit apply during attack of opportunities, or only during full attack rounds (on your turn)? As I understand it (and I'll admit that I could be wrong), you can make as many AoOs against a specific opponent in one round as you want - assuming that you have sufficient AoOs available and that said opponent continues to provoke them. You're simply limited to one AoO per provocation. Here's an example: if you're entitled to 4 AoOs in a single round and a goblin leaves a square you threaten, you can't attack him 4 times - only once (because he's only done one thing to provoke an AoO). But let's say you choose to use your AoO to trip him. If you succeed, the goblin is prone (and you have 3 AoOs left regardless of whether or not your trip succeeds). If you have the Improved Trip feat, that means you're entitled to a free attack. Let's say you choose to make it a disarm attempt and you succeed. Now the goblin is prone and disarmed. Assume this is a psionic goblin who knows Hustle and he immediately uses two move actions - one to pick up his weapon, the other to stand up. Each of these actions provokes an AoO. And since they're different actions, you're entitled to both. Assuming you make them (you can always choose not to make an AoO), that means you've made 3 AoOs this round, and are now entitled to (at most) 1 more. Let's change the situation a bit: assume a large creature (say an ogre) moves out of two squares you threaten. You are only entitled to one AoO because only a single action (moving) provoked it. This isn't coming out as clearly as I'd hoped - anyone care to chime in? As for Double Hit, it applies to AoOs. Any AoO, any round, during your turn or not. Anytime you make an AoO, you get to use your off-hand to make a second attack. The build works in stages - first, someone hits you with a melee attack. Second, you get to make an AoO thanks to Karmic Strike. Third, Double Hit lets you make an attack with your off-hand at the same time. Fourth, High Sword Low Axe grants you a free trip attempt, but ONLY if both of your attacks hit. Finally, if your trip succeeds, Improved Trip gives you a free attack against your prone target. Clear as mud?
crazysamaritan 01-22-05, 03:19 AM	first, someone hits you with a melee attack. Second, you get to make an AoO thanks to Karmic Strike. Third, Double Hit lets you make an attack with your off-hand at the same time. Fourth, High Sword Low Axe grants you a free trip attempt, but ONLY if both of your attacks hit. Finally, if your trip succeeds, Improved Trip gives you a free attack against your prone target. :twitch: that's... that's.... :twitch: GREAT! :devil:
lostone 01-22-05, 08:10 AM	Clear as mud?When I got home after work I looked up the feats, and understood how that worked, I just wasn't clear on the multiple attacks of opportunity against one opponent which you cleared up (and apparently you are right or someone would have posted a rebuttal by now I'd guess). I forgot to lookup the AoO rules about that last night. I can do that now in the SRD, and it turns out you are absolutely correct. Have a :cookie:. Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.
Abulafia 01-22-05, 11:57 AM	There's a feat from Dragon 279 called Unorthodox Flurry that lets you use one light weapon of choice as a flurry weapon. If you use the Slashing Blades feature of Dervish to let you treat a scimitar as a light weapon, you can do something like: Human Monk (Cobra Strike) 11/Dervish 5/ Tempest 4 Feats: 1: Militia (if not available, try Monk 11/Ftr 1/Dervish 4/Tempest 4) 1: Combat Expertise 1: Dodge 2: Mobility 3: Weapon Focus (scimitar) 6: Spring Attack 6: Weapon Finesse 9: Two-weapon Fighting 12: Unorthodox Flurry (scimitar) 15: Improved Two-weapon Fighting 18: Greater Two-weapon Fighting Your BAB at Lvl 20 is +17/+17/+17/+12/+7/+2; wielding two scimitars your full attack is +17/+17/+17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+7/+2. Plus your speed is 60 (90 with Monk's Belt & Monk's Tattoo), which dovetails nicely with dervish dance. Might as well add Haste or one speed enhancement (multiple speed weapons do not grant multiple bonus attacks) for an even 10 attacks. I tried to keep this reasonable (no six-armed creatures or anything), but it does require some leeway from your DM. If this is too far out, pick up Whirling Steel Strike & Oversized Two-weapon Fighting, and use 2 longswords. You don't need Unorthodox Flurry (or Militia or the Fighter level if you're an elf), and you still get all the attacks with no off-hand penalties, but you can't use Weapon Finesse (MAD is always a killer in monk builds). This gets ludicrous if you play into epic, once you reach the 10th level of Dervish for Thousand Cuts and pick up Perfect Two-weapon Fighting, but you can count on your DM killing you off out of annoyance long before that.
Naflem 01-22-05, 01:33 PM	For those of you with Races of Stone...... Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Run, Weapon Focus (scimitar), Improved TWF, Greater TWF, Monkey Grip, Improved Critical (scimitar). Nice template, but powerful build and monkey grip do not stack.
lostone 01-24-05, 08:59 AM	Ok, the Tumble DC to avoid AoO is 15, for moving half speed. But if the Dervish moves half speed with a lot of builds they won't be getting all their attacks in a full attack as part of the Dervish Dance. Is there a modifier somewhere to make the DC higher but move at full speed? That way with a speed of 30 a Dervish could make up to 7 attacks in their dance and still have the mandatory 5 foot move between each.
lostone 01-24-05, 09:01 AM	Sorry for the double. What cheap/easy ways (1 feat or cheap magic item or whatever) are there to become immune to fatigue before level 9 of the Dervish? I know warforged are immune, but they aren't the best choice for a Dervish build.
Abulafia 01-24-05, 09:05 AM	What cheap/easy ways (1 feat or cheap magic item or whatever) are there to become immune to fatigue before level 9 of the Dervish? Tireless feat from FR (regional) Desert Mastery ability from Horizon Walker
LiXinjian 02-19-05, 08:08 AM	Sense Weakness, from the Book of Dragons, allows a Dervish (or anyone with Weapon Focus and Combat Expertise) to ignore up to 5 points of damage resistance. I'd say this qualifies as a must-have feat for the dervish.
Helmed Horror 02-19-05, 10:08 AM	dont forget the ever fun going as a changling! Changeling Fighter 4 /Warshaper 4 / Dervish 10 / EWM 2 hmm dont have the books in front of me but this seems to be a pretty nice build, the one thing is that your speed doesn't get that much of a boost for the lack of fast movement or celerity domain,