Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fiftyvolts 05-28-04, 01:00 PM	So I am wondering what people think about the following situation. How does one min/max the following character: 9th level human fighter. This is a bit of a callenge and at the same time a good exercise in figuring out which feats give you the most "bang for your buck." You have 10 feats to work with and assume that the attributes are going to be bought using the RPGA nonstandard point buy system (i.e. 28 points to spend, look on page 169 in the DMG). THis means that if you are thinking about butting a high score in str you might not have the prerequisite int or dex to pick up some feats. As for items you can buy any minor or medium items that total less than 36,000gp. To get the ball rolling here's something I have thought up (it's far from perfect): Hit Dice: 9d10+9 (53 hp) Initiative: +1 Speed: 30ft Armor Class: 20 (+2 Dex, +2 Chain Shirt, Ring of Protection +2) Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+19 Attack: Greatsword +20 melee (2d6+13/19-20) Full Attack: Greatsword +20/+15 (2d6+13/19-20) Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft Special Attacks: none Special Qualities: none Saves: Fort +9, Ref +7, Will +4 Abilities: Str 22, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 8 Skills: Climb +8, Intimidate +8, Jump +10, Swim +8, Tumble +4 Feats: Dodge, Greater Weapon Focus Greatsword, Improved Grapple, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus Greatsword, Weapon Specialization Greatsword Alignment: Neutral Possessions: +2 Greatsword, +2 Chainshirt, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Ring of Protection +2, Ring of Counterspells, Cloak of Resistance +2, Longbow, 40 arrows 4 Elixir's of Silver Sheen Tactics and Explanation: Str was increased at level 4 and 8 The idea behind this fighter is to use his superior strength and mobility to the fullest, while minimizing his two main weaknesses: low saves and low hp. His tactics against melee opponents is to spring attack and sunder their weapons. He should use his improved overrun as a way to, shall we say, "trip" opponents who have weapons he can't seem to sunder (this is unlikely as his minimum damage can break just about any nonmagical weapon). Against supporting characters (i.e. sneaky opponents like rouges) he should just charge and overrun them and then swing as they either crawl away or attempt to stand. Spellcasters should be grappled mercilessly. Grab them and attempt to pin every turn. He'll hold them down while the rest of the party can put the hurt on him. Creatures larger than medium pose a problem for him. His best bet against large creatures is to spring attack and hope his mobility covers for him. Huge creatures pretty much circumvent most of his special abilities so he'll probably just have to wade into melee and flee after a few hits for healing (or just fleeing depending on the case). Flying creatures are also and issue. If the creature doesn't have a ranged attack he should ready an action to try and grapple them as they fly in to attack. If they do start shooting with the longbow (cringe). Again I make no claims that this is a perfect character. Perhaps one day he'll pick up a pair of Winged Boots and have a better shot at putting on the hurt. Probably the one enhancement this guy is sneaking most is to be permanently enlarged. This will increase his damage quite a bit (3d6+14/19-20) and give him another +4 on his grapple and sunder attempts. This is the main reason I gave him dex 15, so that should he be enlarged he'll still have the 13 dex to keep Dodge and Improved Grapple. His ring of counterspells probably holds either Hold Person or Hold Monster. Both those spells will really destroy this character. Please post you comments as well as alternative 9th level human fighter builds :D
Funny Slaughter 05-28-04, 01:35 PM	Dodge,Mobility,Spring Attack a good feat-chain. you dont get too much out of it as you are missing bonus-damage like sneak-attack etc, but still solid Weapon Focus Greatsword Weapon Specialization Greatsword Greater Weapon Focus Greatsword in my opinion these feats are useless. you have so many great feats in CW, go and take a look Improved Grapple even when permanently enlarged you wont have too many monsters you can grapple at this level. stay with it if you think you can get a mage or two Improved Overrun hmm, ok, if you intend to use it Improved Sunder is normally a NPC-feat. the weapons of your enemy are often the most valuable loot, bad idea to destroy them. go with disarm instead. Improved Unarmed Strike useless. you wont do significant damage with it, better to have a dagger ready or wear a spiked gauntlet Power Attack mandatory advise: take a look at the build-FAQ and the linked fighter-thread. CW does also have quite some good feat-chains for a mobility-fighter think about adding charge-chains maybe. gs Funny
fiftyvolts 05-28-04, 01:50 PM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter Dodge,Mobility,Spring Attack a good feat-chain. you dont get too much out of it as you are missing bonus-damage like sneak-attack etc, but still solid The idea was to use them to minimize the damage he took. He doesn't have particularly high HP, but you make a good point he's not getting too much out of it. Weapon Focus Greatsword Weapon Specialization Greatsword Greater Weapon Focus Greatsword I can see where you're coming from on this, but I didn't see any feats that really caught my eye from CW. With the above I get some extra damage (not a lot) and more +to hit which is important for power attacking. Since I'm using a great sword -1 base attack translates into 2 damage. I can power attack for quite a bit and still have a decent to hit with these feats. I am starting to agree with you about the weapon specialization though... maybe that'll get changed. Improved Grapple In the past I have found that grappling spell casters is by far the best way to deal with them. In addition he'd have +24 to grapple if he was enlarged. That's pretty darn good if you ask me. I'm pretty adamant about this one. Improved Overrun hmm, ok, if you intend to use it [QUOTE] Yeah I'll admit that it's kinda weak, but it can get one out of a sticky situation, and it can be used as a poor man's (er, dumb man's?) improved trip. [QUOTE] Improved Sunder ...go with disarm instead. Well I would need a bit more than 8 int for that :D Also I find sunder more useful than disarm during combat. A disarmed weapon can be picked up, but once you cut something in two it's done. Good point about the treasure though; I'm not sure if this guy would be smart enough to figure that out ;) Improved Unarmed Strike useless. you wont do significant damage with it, better to have a dagger ready or wear a spiked gauntlet This was only taken as a prerequisite for Improved Grapple, on it's own it is pretty darn useless. Edit: Fixed my vB code
snb1131 05-28-04, 01:55 PM	If you can use the UA generic classes, you could conceivably have +5d6 sneak attack dice by 8th level. This would stack nicely with the Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack chain...you'd use one 'feat' at first level to gain +2d6 and another 'feat' one you reach 8th level to gain another +3d6. Sneak with a mercurial greatsword would be nice, indeed.
rilem 05-28-04, 02:05 PM	Is multiclassing an option? If so you might be able to get around that low-Int problem for expertise-related feats, or save yourself some feats elsewhere. Example: a Barbarian(Bear Totem from Unearthed Arcana) gets you Improved Grapple for free at level 2, instead of uncanny dodge. (Yes, you'd wind up losing a feat with Bbn3/Frtr6 anyway, but you get more hitpoints and Saves -- you also get Toughness and Great Fortitude with Bear Totem) I agree with Funny about the WF feats. All they do is tie you to the greatsword, making it harder to pick up better weapons along the way. Combat Brute (complete warrior) is way better than this, and you qualify with Improved Sunder.
fiftyvolts 05-28-04, 03:08 PM	Well multiclassing is always an option, but I was more interested in a discussion about the base fighter class. No frills, just feats. I have a firm belief that you can really take the base classes far on their own, and I just wanted to see what people on the optimization board could do with a straight up human fighter. I'm going to stick with my guns on the Weapon focus feats, but I could definitely see giving up the specialization. Heh, my first instinct would be to grab Iron Will rather than a different combat feat.
rilem 05-28-04, 03:41 PM	Iron Will is a solid choice, and will definitely help you more than W.Specialization
amalcon 05-28-04, 04:55 PM	In terms of feats, I personally like: Exotic Weapon: Dire Flail Two-Weapon Fighting jortunbrud (RoF) Combat Expertise improved trip improved disarm Improved Two-Weapon Fighting Lightning Reflexes Prone Attack(CW) Improved Buckler Defense (CW) In terms of equipment, you probably want a buckler +2 and chain shirt +2, for a pre-dex AC of 19, which is pretty good. As far as stats go, you want at least 17 dex (for TWF) and decent strength and con scores. Given that we're using point buy, I suggest a 14 dex and increasing it twice at levels, for 16 dex, and buying Gloves +2 for 18 and an AC of 23. You'll lose improved TWF when not wearing the gloves, but this is legal. Strategy: You should be using your off-hand attacks for things such as disarming and tripping. Take the off-hand attacks first; that way, if you're tripped during these, you can still stand up for free while making your remaining attacks. The strength/2 to damage with the off-hand means that you won't give up much damage to do this.
zifnab2525 05-28-04, 05:35 PM	At level 9, not a bad idea to pick up the Improved Critical. Doesn't stack with Keen, but still damn good since feats can't be disenchanted and still work in anti-magic fields. I really do have to question the high Str and low HP build, but that's just my personal fear. Drop the Unarmed Strike for Iron Will. A badass fighter is only so good until he gets Dominated. Then he's scary for all the wrong reasons. I honestly like the Weapon Specialization tree for the fighter. The bonus to-hit and damage might not look like much at first, but keep in mind that it's the equivalent of a monster boost to Strength. When it comes to damage, you're not going to find much better. The only downside is you really are tied to your weapon. When your DM drops the +5 Vorpal Longsword or the Intelligent Shield of Invulnerability, you'll be kicking yourself. However, in the long run you can just craft what you want or buy it on the open market. Get that Mercurial Greatsword and be happy. They don't come much better than that. Get your speed up. Get some Boots of Striding and Springing or Boots of Haste. If you're too poor, just grab a bunch of Expeditious Retreat potions. Make the Spring Attack earn it's keep. It's also good for reaching the mage often tucked away behind his wall of fighters or monsters or... walls. Getting some sort of flying is also good if you really plan on being a mage killer.