Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arkhain 11-08-04, 12:57 PM	This character isn't really that viable in combat... if you'll jump down to Weapons and look at his total attack bonus, he's worse than an elven wizzie in melee. However, given his HP and AC, he's not one to fall easily in combat. This was started as a dwarf character using Races of Stone's 1st level substitution, but grew into a tank monster pretty quick. Tell me what you think! Dwarf Fighter 4 / Ranger 3 / Deepwarden 2 / Dwarven Defender 10 HD 1d12 + 3d10 + 3d8 + 2d12 + 10d12 (13d12 + 3d10 + 3d8) + 260 (300 in stance) Ability Scores Str 18 (+4) (not hard by level 20) Dex 15 (+1) (needed by level 6, give or take) Con 36 (+13) (requires 20 starting, +5 level, +5 tome, +6 enh) Int 13 (+1) (required by level 2, give or take) Wis 10 (+0) (sure) Cha 8 (-1) (haha dumpstat) Spd 20ft Init +1 Armor Class (look here!!! :D) AC 57 (+10 base, +15 plate, +13 con, +6 shield, +5 deflection, +5 natural, +4 defender, +1 insight) Stance AC 101 (+10 base, +17 plate, +15 con, +6 shield, +5 deflection, +5 natural, +4 defender, +4 stance, +3 defensive, +1 dodge, +1 insight, +20 expertise, +10 defending) BAB +20 Fort +17 Ref +7 Will +12 Skills (the rest can be filled in at your leisure) Climb 5+ ranks Heal 5+ ranks Jump 5+ ranks K : Dungeoneering 5+ ranks Tumble 5+ ranks Survival 5+ ranks Feats (the order for most can be switched) F1 Axe Focus * 1 Dwarven Armor Proficiency * F2 Combat Expertise 3 Toughness (Improved Toughness) # F4 Dodge 6 Two-Weapon Fighting 9 Shielded Axe * R1 Track R2 Rapid Shot R3 Endurance 12 Heavy Armor Optimization * 15 Greater Heavy Armor Optimization * 18 Improved Combat Expertise # * Races of Stone # Complete Warrior Abilities Stonewarden Wild Empathy +3 Irrelevant Favored Enemy +2 Mobile Defensive Stance 5/day Damage Reduction 6/- Trap Sense +3 Improved Uncanny Dodge 12 Melee Attacks Waraxe +26 (+20 base, +5 weapon, +4 str, +1 focus) 1d10 + 9 20x3 (this is a normal swing) Waraxe Stance -1 (+20 base, -20 expertise, +5 weapon, -5 defending, +1 focus, -1 buckler, +5 str, -2 two-weapon fighting, -4 defensive fighting) 1d10 + 5 20x3 (these penalties are required for the AC) Handaxe Stance -1 1d6 + 2 20x3 Ranged Attacks Uh... Equipment (well within the 700k) Defending Waraxe +5 72,330 gp Defending Handaxe +5 72,306 gp Interlocking Plate Armor +5 (Races of Stone) 27,150 gp Buckler +5 25,165 gp Tome of Con +5 137,500 gp Bracers of Health +6 36,000 gp Ring of Protection +5 50,000 gp Amulet of Natural Armor +5 50,000 gp Dusty Rose Ioun Stone 5,000 gp
Nightspirit 11-08-04, 01:38 PM	uh...this is the follower that every casters want to have please, explain me how you can take +20 from combat expertise what about touch AC? Anyway, he has got a really poor ref save...a high level sorcerer with some maximized twin fireballs(120 damage) can kill him in 3 rounds, and he can't hit the sorcerer
edwardsobel 11-08-04, 01:47 PM	It hasn't been offical or confirmed but do stonewardens get thier full con bonus to AC when in armor or is it resticted the same way as dex bonus (IE max dex bonus now become max con bonus). this has never been answered!
Bacris 11-08-04, 01:49 PM	imp combat expertise lets you take negative to hit up to your BAB. his BAB is 20, hence -20.
Xaos of the Mind 11-08-04, 01:53 PM	I don't have RoS, but I'd say full Constitution bonus, because their ability shouldn't be mobility based, as dexterity is. Max dex mod is reduced because of physical limitations on mobility by the armor. As far as being able to shrug off hits is concerned, i'd say full Con all the way.
Arkhain 11-08-04, 03:41 PM	His Touch AC is 70 or 80, I believe. His FF AC is like 40-something, and Touch FF (also known as "You're shafted AC") is like 20-something. It's obvious he sucks in combat. He has a freaking minus as his primary attack. However, his saves are base (unmodified for ability scores) and his equipment is minimal. I'm sure he can be further optimized for actual combat ability. This build is kind of dumb if Con gets restricted by max Dex. If it turns out that that's the case, I'll scrap it.
edwardsobel 11-08-04, 03:45 PM	I don't have RoS, but I'd say full Constitution bonus, because their ability shouldn't be mobility based, as dexterity is. Max dex mod is reduced because of physical limitations on mobility by the armor. As far as being able to shrug off hits is concerned, i'd say full Con all the way. I would agree and in fact house rule it that way BUT the key is that it is not really specified as official one way or another it does make for a rather powerful ability for only a 2 level dip!
Khazra Reborn 11-08-04, 03:53 PM	Dwarf paragon instead of 3 fighter levels would squeeze out another 1 ac if your really trying to get it as high as possible. Having an Ac this high is stupid, people get annoyed & get a Frenzied beserker to full PA until they get a natural 20 ( i know, it happened to me in an arena).
Arkhain 11-08-04, 04:24 PM	Concerning Dwarf paragon, do you have any suggestions for the feat I'll lose? I don't know if it'll be quite worth it. Also, I don't expect people to arena with this character. Though, through attrition, he might be able to take out the FB.
Dain 11-08-04, 05:32 PM	I would agree and in fact house rule it that way BUT the key is that it is not really specified as official one way or another it does make for a rather powerful ability for only a 2 level dip! Come on, guys. While the wording is unclear I think it's pretty darn obvious that the ability is supposed to be limited by the max dexterity mod of the armor. They were trying to create a cool dwarven ranger type, not the ultimate 2 level dip for any dwarven tank. But we're still waiting for errata to clarify the matter, of course.
GeneralHenry 11-08-04, 05:44 PM	the way to take him out isn't with fireballs, it's with stat drain. Lower his Dex and he loses his dwarven defender abilities, lower his Int and he loses expertise or just use ego whip (XHP) to take out his cha
Arkhain 11-08-04, 06:32 PM	Stat drain? Stat drain is primarily Fort-based, in the case of undead and poisons and spells which replicate undead or poisonish effects, and Will, in the case of Psionics. Neither of those are particularly low saves, especially Fort. He has the Will of a straight 20th-level Strong Will character, in addition to the save bonus that Defensive Stance nets him.
allenchan 11-08-04, 07:33 PM	I'm a little confused... Why interlocking armor? +8 (+10 when not moving more then 5) at the cost of a feat? I would say go with Mechanus Armor (PH) which gives +10 AC and isn't exotic. As I understand it this would also free up the feat for the dwarven paragon :)
Jeremymc 11-08-04, 08:35 PM	Well, it specifies that the Deepwarden doesn't recieve the CON bonus to AC when he would be denied a Dexterity bonus. So... when you're flanked. When you don't know your opponent is there.... and... when you're wearing too much armour. I'm with the "Dwarven Ranger" idea here - if not, then this ability FAR outstrips the Dexterity bonus to AC. And game designers don't make things this that unbalanced.
Thannin 11-08-04, 08:47 PM	Well, it specifies that the Deepwarden doesn't recieve the CON bonus to AC when he would be denied a Dexterity bonus. So... when you're flanked. When you don't know your opponent is there.... and... when you're wearing too much armour. I'm with the "Dwarven Ranger" idea here - if not, then this ability FAR outstrips the Dexterity bonus to AC. And game designers don't make things this that unbalanced. Game designers make unbalanced choices all the time. Quill blast, rejuvenating cacoon, animal growth, divine power, polymorph, and shapechange all come to mind off the top of my head.
Caelic 11-08-04, 08:50 PM	Nonetheless, the wording's actually pretty clear--he loses the bonus when he'd be denied his Dex bonus. Heavy armor denies part of the Dex bonus; ergo, it also denies part of the Con bonus. As the class is written, I think you really have to work at selectively ignoring parts of the wording to conclude that it permits unlimited Con bonus with heavy armor.
Tempest Stormwind 11-08-04, 09:13 PM	Nonetheless, the wording's actually pretty clear--he loses the bonus when he'd be denied his Dex bonus. Heavy armor denies part of the Dex bonus; ergo, it also denies part of the Con bonus. As the class is written, I think you really have to work at selectively ignoring parts of the wording to conclude that it permits unlimited Con bonus with heavy armor. Actually, I think the way the core rules are written means that the armor RESTRICTS your dex bonus. You are not DENIED it. You cannot be "denied" part of your dex bonus in this case. If you are, anyone wearing armor with a lower max-dex than their own dex mod is instantly vulnerable to sneak attacks, even if the enemy rogue walks up in broad daylight and says "I say, good sir, I am going to smack you right in the family jewels with my encrusted cane, what" before doing just that. If you're denied part of something, then you also get into circular arguments: "You're denied half of your dex bonus. Eat the SA dice." "But I still have the other half, and it still applies. I'm not denied my dex bonus." "But you are. Here's +9d6 coming at you." "Denied your dex bonus" is an all-or-nothing thing. It's not like the variable penalties for darkness. That said, I agree the spirit of the rule was probably replacing your dex-to-AC with con-to-AC, better fitting the dwarf archetype ("Movement? BAH! Pansy elf tricks. Slap on more metal!"). As written, it's ambiguous at best, but seems to allow it regardless of armor max dex (sort of like how armor stacks with natural armor, and your constitution can be seen as a subset of that. You sure aren't trying to get out of the way with a 9 dex, but with a 24 con, you can take it.) Either way, though, drop Exotic Armor, go with the Mechanus gear, and swap in Dwarf Paragon. Perfectly fits the flavor, too.
Qaetar 11-08-04, 09:21 PM	Well, since you're not worried about attack bonus... Take any armor you want and be non-proficient in it. Then you're just dealing with the ACP to attack, which you don't care about anyway. (Qaetar)
Darkmantle666 11-08-04, 09:42 PM	Anyway, he has got a really poor ref save...a high level sorcerer with some maximized twin fireballs(120 damage) can kill him in 3 rounds, and he can't hit the sorcerer[/QUOTE] Not only does that use a 10th level spell slot though rod of metamagic Maximize(which is pretty expensive for an NPC) would do it, but I thought the ruling in 3.5 was that metamagic didn't stack so no maximised empowered fireballs doing 90 damage it was 60 + 5d6 I seem to remember that being written somewhere but I couldn't find it in the Player's Handbook.
GeneralHenry 11-08-04, 10:07 PM	yes stat damage. at 15th level a psion can hit him with a maximized ego whip for 16 cha damage save for half. knocking him to 0 zero cha, making him quite helpless. It can also be pulled off by a 13th level psion using over channel, or by an 11th level wilder using a wild surge. or if you want spells, touch of idiocy, or bestow curse combined with a true strike. or feeblemind. Or best of all Waves of Exhaustion, -6 str and dex no save
allenchan 11-08-04, 10:10 PM	... And game designers don't make things this that unbalanced. Wait, -which- boards are you on? And you're saying -what- ? :rofl: But seriously it doesnt strike me as that overpowered, just -very- good. Deffinately not limited to max dex
Thannin 11-08-04, 10:13 PM	Actually, I think the way the core rules are written means that the armor RESTRICTS your dex bonus. You are not DENIED it. You cannot be "denied" part of your dex bonus in this case. If you are, anyone wearing armor with a lower max-dex than their own dex mod is instantly vulnerable to sneak attacks, even if the enemy rogue walks up in broad daylight and says "I say, good sir, I am going to smack you right in the family jewels with my encrusted cane, what" before doing just that. If you're denied part of something, then you also get into circular arguments: "You're denied half of your dex bonus. Eat the SA dice." "But I still have the other half, and it still applies. I'm not denied my dex bonus." "But you are. Here's +9d6 coming at you." "Denied your dex bonus" is an all-or-nothing thing. It's not like the variable penalties for darkness. That said, I agree the spirit of the rule was probably replacing your dex-to-AC with con-to-AC, better fitting the dwarf archetype ("Movement? BAH! Pansy elf tricks. Slap on more metal!"). As written, it's ambiguous at best, but seems to allow it regardless of armor max dex (sort of like how armor stacks with natural armor, and your constitution can be seen as a subset of that. You sure aren't trying to get out of the way with a 9 dex, but with a 24 con, you can take it.) Either way, though, drop Exotic Armor, go with the Mechanus gear, and swap in Dwarf Paragon. Perfectly fits the flavor, too. The problem is the spirit of the rule doesnt agree with the flavor of the game. If dwarves wear as much metal as possible, the con to ac bonus instead of dex to ac bonus would still mean the dwarf would get zero bonus. Considering the fact that its meant to work with fullplate or worse max dex bonus armors, Id say that it wouldnt be hindered because of the fact that it's meant to give heavily armored dwarves more ac. I think for a two level dip it's overpowered, but I don't believe it's meant to be restricted by armor.
Arkhain 11-08-04, 11:34 PM	Why interlocking armor? Because I have RoS, and wanted to use their armor, and when I considered Planar, I just remembered all of the reduntant weapons (Ripper? Stabaxe? Lancet? More like Piercing Greatsword, Handaxe, Kukri, thx) and didn't remember the armors. Okay, so Mechanus plate. Isn't that armor a little broken, though, if it's the same as Mountain Plate only better? Whatever, though, dropping proficiency means that he needs a nat 20 to hit instead of... a... nat 20. Concerning stat damage, it wouldn't be hard for him to drop a few (like 16 or 36) kilogold and raise his Dex, Int, Wis and Cha to make them less vulnerable to ability damage, and he's not meant to solo wizards - few fighter-based characters are, and even fewer fighter-based-characters-also-based-around-moving-5-feet-or-less-per-round. Now, I also realized that I am an idiot. Hit Dice : 13d12 + 3d8 + 3d10. Waraxe +26 (+20 base, Does anyone else notice where I failed 2nd grade math? I think the best build would be, so far... Ranger 1 This gives 32 skill points, which really helps towards the Deepwarden skill prereqs Dwarf Paragon 3 Gives 1 AC in 3 levels, but increases saves as well and has most Deepwarden skills as class. Fighter 4 Three feats, for extra fun. Deepwarden 2 Con to AC, right? If not, this build is over. Dwarven Defender 10 +4 dodge, +4 dodge, +4 con, yes? Yes. If anyone else has any better ideas, please let me know.
xerofire 11-09-04, 12:54 AM	I think this guy needs a custom made item of Tenser's floating disc or a wizard friend. Suddenly he's mobile!
GeneralHenry 11-09-04, 03:38 AM	ok ok, sweet build so magic aside how too take him out two ways I can think of Feinting to remove all the dodge bonuses and then grappling with a decent grappler. disarm him or sunder his weapons and sheild, he's got a frigging negative attack bonus.
darczero 11-09-04, 03:58 AM	Buckler +5 Why not instead go with +5 Animated Tower Shield? Costs more, but command it to set for defense, gain massive cover bonus, still gain Defending weapon bonuses for both hands, not wielding it so don't suffer penalties to attack rolls. Also, I noticed "-4 Stance" in your Attack category. Is that from fighting defensively? If so, Expertise replaces that penalty. I have a no armor build similar to this one, a Duelist type, with AC of 100+ (can't remember the exact number); it has also been pointed out that someone else (specifically Otto the Bugbear) has a 157 AC build out there. I'm working on taking that one apart right now. I'm pretty sure that between this tank and my Duelist, it would definitely be a war of attrition. Although I could possibly stuff some Sunder abilities in mine, losing maybe 2 or 3 points of AC.
catharz 11-09-04, 04:01 AM	The problem is the spirit of the rule doesnt agree with the flavor of the game. If dwarves wear as much metal as possible, the con to ac bonus instead of dex to ac bonus would still mean the dwarf would get zero bonus. Considering the fact that its meant to work with fullplate or worse max dex bonus armors, Id say that it wouldnt be hindered because of the fact that it's meant to give heavily armored dwarves more ac. I think for a two level dip it's overpowered, but I don't believe it's meant to be restricted by armor. I think Dain is right, the "spirit" of deepwarden is to give a lightly armored dwarf compensation for giving up a major racial ability, not to give them the highest ACs in the game. And this is the C.O. board, since when did flavor ever get in the way of the rules?
Arkhain 11-09-04, 04:18 AM	He's actually not immobile in interlocking plate if he's not in Defensive Stance. He has the standard mobility of a plated human or elf, so he's not that slow. Once he Stances, then he can only do 5 feet, but that's the whole point of the Dwarven Defender. Ways to take him out are many. However, denying him his Dex bonus still leaves him with a ridiculous amount of armor-based AC left. Disarming him will only lower his AC by 5 each, sundering the shield by 6. I wasn't sure about the tower shield's usage. If I get cover, I can't attack, right? However, you're right that it would give me another +2 and free up a feat. I don't have a -4 Stance in attacks, at least to my knowledge. If this build was optimized for combat, I'd probably drop the Heavy Armor Op feats, as they only add +1 AC each. There, I could get two more (potentially far more useful) feats. Concerning Stonewarden, again, this build assumes that it's not limited by max dex bonus. If it is, which I'm fairly certain they will errata it to (because it's like the most cheepass ability ever), then this build is moot, but until then, can't I bask in the glory of triple-digit armor class scores?
Nightspirit 11-09-04, 06:15 AM	Anyway, he has got a really poor ref save...a high level sorcerer with some maximized twin fireballs(120 damage) can kill him in 3 rounds, and he can't hit the sorcerer Not only does that use a 10th level spell slot though rod of metamagic Maximize(which is pretty expensive for an NPC) would do it, but I thought the ruling in 3.5 was that metamagic didn't stack so no maximised empowered fireballs doing 90 damage it was 60 + 5d6 I seem to remember that being written somewhere but I couldn't find it in the Player's Handbook. use a rod of maximize lesser, with craft rods the cost is not pretty expensive and yes, for empowered maximized fireballs you are right...not for maximized twin fieballs twin spell is not dependant from variable numeric effects, like empower spell the feats says "a spell altered from this feat takes effect twice" so IMHO the maximized fireball take effects twice for 120 damage, no saves, no ranged touch required
Quoriil 11-09-04, 06:18 PM	I've found that the best response to a dwarf tank is an invisible wilder. I mention this because it highlights the only drawback of the concept, the rotten reflex save. Even with a +11 while in stance at level 20, the wilder can pick the energy (likely electricity if your dwarf is clad in metal, so stock up on electric resistance) and can deliver (with its wild surge, giving it a manifester level equivalent of 26) a quickened, empowered ball that'll deal a piddling 27d6 points of damage, followed by twinned, maximized energy balls dealing a modest 192 points of damage... ...every round. (sure its expensive but the wilder can support it for the 2-5 rounds needed) Soooo, that's an average of 286 points of electrical damage per round, with a (assuming a charisma score of 20 and +2 for electric) DC of 20. Giving the dwarf max hit points at 510 while in stance, he's still dead in 4 rounds even if he saves every time. I'm of course assuming that the wilder isn't going to conk out due to mental enervation, though the feat, Unconditional Power, can fix that problem... But hey, I'm just playing devil's advocate. Oh, did I mention that the wilder is naked? And Psionics is balanced now... :D
GeneralHenry 11-09-04, 08:54 PM	meh damage is not the way for a wilder to take him out, surge a maximized ego whip for 24 cha damage save for half. few characters can take that for more than a couple rounds
Darkmantle666 11-10-04, 07:13 AM	[QUOTE=darczero]Why not instead go with +5 Animated Tower Shield? Costs more, but command it to set for defense, gain massive cover bonus, still gain Defending weapon bonuses for both hands, not wielding it so don't suffer penalties to attack rolls. A Character with an animated shield still takes any penalties associated with shield use, such as armour check penalty, arcance spell failure chance and nonproficiency. that quote from SRD so still suffer attack but you do gain that extra armour so good
Darkmantle666 11-10-04, 07:15 AM	twin spell is not dependant from variable numeric effects, like empower spell the feats says "a spell altered from this feat takes effect twice" so IMHO the maximized fireball take effects twice for 120 damage, no saves, no ranged touch required[/QUOTE] I am so taking twin if I can get away with that one :D
Quoriil 11-10-04, 05:24 PM	Here I was forgetting all about ego whip! My tank generating player tends to like taking three levels of Hexblade for the "mettle". Which is a horrible horrible thing to do with that damnable RoS psionic feat that makes armor apply to touch AC. I'm finding massive reflex based elemental damage to be the most viable option. No fear = No fun. :rolleyes: