10th level Monk? [Archive] - Wizards Community

10th level Monk? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Oppesia
11-26-06, 07:48 PM Hey, I'm a long-time lurker, first time poster (I actually registered just to post this!)
Despite hanging around, I'm not really very good with the whole character creation thing... I read through the monk handbook (well, http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=48573) but I'm not so good at sticking it all together into a usable character, and I was wondering if someone could shove me in the right direction?

I'm playing as a Zenythri (+2str/+2dex/+2wis/-2cha, medium sized). They have an ECL of 2, but it's actually a level 11 campaign (so I get 10 levels of Monk, or whatever goes well with Monk... I tend to stray away from multiclassing because it confuses me! If there are any must-haves, Zenythri have favoured class monk so I can take other classes without penalties)

We're only 28-point buy, unfortunately. We have usual gold for a level 11 character, and so long as it's reasonable for a character of that level my DM will let me get away with it.

My character will be lawful good, we're a very good party. I've got a good idea of his skills already (he's taking a lot of roguey-skills, because we're missing a skillful character).
My main problem is that he HAS to be pretty strong and I'm not sure I know how to do it. My team-mates are a full-cleric who's out with the buffs and a halfdragon fighter-type (with who it's usual to see dish out over 70 damage a turn). I can be overshadowed, but I don't want to be completely useless by comparison!

By my character design, I'd rather that he didn't wear too much armour or the like. My sheets of him have him pretty much naked and I wanted to keep it that way! (I'm not perverted, really!)

I can use any 3.5 books, but not things published in Dragon Magazine (or things from specific campaigns, like eberron). Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thankyou! :)
LordMongoose
11-26-06, 07:54 PM A simple build uses Defensive Throw/Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit and gets attacks on everybody. It's pretty fun and also easy to build.
Toss in a level of Swordsage to pick up a Shadow Hand stance and get a free weapon focus on your UAS and Shadow Blade for some real fun.
zarzak
11-26-06, 07:55 PM You'll definiltey want Improved Natural Attack (from the monster manual) at 6th level to bump your damage.
Oppesia
11-26-06, 08:31 PM Thanks a lot, it's nice to have something to start with : )
Oppesia
11-27-06, 05:47 AM Hmm, it's strange to me that neither of you mentioned the Vow of Poverty, is it not worth taking when you're already level 11 (almost 12)? I hear it gets useless later, but I thought it was a "ZOMG MUST HAFF" for monks everywhere?
solbergb
11-27-06, 12:55 PM Here is a very basic generalized monk build that doesn't suck, has all the monk tactical options with respectable damage dealing and is fairly easy to understand/play. It or something similar is usually what I recommend to new monk players that don't have much else in mind other than "I want to play a monk." - it does everything monks do, without becoming too much of a one-trick-pony in any aspect

Attributes (28 point buy, 2 statbumps to strength)

str 20, dex 16 con 14 wis 16 int 8 cha 6
after equipment
str 24 dex 18 con 18 wis 18 int 8 cha 6

hp/saves after equipment:
hp 89 (max L1 and alternating 5 and 4 afterwards)
fort: +15 Reflex: +15 Will: +15

Buy balance and jump to 5 ranks
max tumble (13 ranks)
other skills to suit your taste...you'll have 16 ranks to play with.

L1 Stun Fist (bonus), imp grapple
L2 combat reflexes (bonus)
L3 power attack
L4
L5
L6 imp trip (bonus), improved natural attack
L9 (whatever feat you like)

Equipment: 88000gp correct?

75 k of basic stuff
16k Belt of Giant Strength+4
16k amulet health+4
4k gloves dex+2
8k ioun stone wisdom+2
13k boots of haste
16k vest of resistance+4
2k handy haversack
mw spiked chain (or other reach weapon, nonproficient is ok, or you can use the L9 feat for proficiency if you want more 2-handed power attacking smack on single attacks or AOO's. If you spend a feat, make it a magical chain.)

potions of clw, mage armor, prot evil, magic fang or magic weapon, bless weapon, enlarge person (caster level 1, not the L5 version in the DMG) and fly. How many depends on how likely resupply is once you start play. Some of these you can get from casters in the party, but you need your own potions, for when they're too busy to help you.

You should be getting GMW or GMF from the divine caster or arcane caster routinely on a fist. It helps you more than it helps anyone else (you can't enhance your fists to +1 for 2000gp, and you can't even hurt incorporeals with your fists without it, given the recent FAQ ruling on that topic)

Triple weapon capsule retainers (Complete Adventurer) - with quickfrost/quickflame/quickspark on one retainer and quicksilver/ghostblight and your favorite element on another (make sure this is on a magic weapon, your GMW fist perhaps). Consider a third triple retainer for your reach weapon, for when you're trying to scare folks out of your threatened AOO zone.

Without burning consumables and without even GMW your attack mod is (with boots of haste) +15/+15/+15/+10 2d8+7 or about 64 damage a round if they all hit. With GMW, bumps it +2 to hit and +8 damage/round. With capsule retainers burned, that adds 44 damage for one full attack per fight. If you enlarge yourself, the damage is 3d8+8 without other help, or ~85 damage (and more with GMW/capsule retainers).

You'll be contributing just fine. And you'll contribute even more when you get the improved flurry at level 11.

You also have a bunch of tactical options that you will find useful on some targets. You grapple at +18/18/18/13 (+5 if enlarged), you trip at +11/11/11/11 (+5 if enlarged) and you get 10 stun fists a day with DC 19, which isn't amazing, but it's practically free so why not try it on anyone who is the least bit vulnerable? Generally these maneuvers are done as part of a "move up and attack" (or AOO in case of trip) or are done on high AC targets that you're missing a lot (so a blown grapple/trip check doesn't have the opportunity cost), the idea being to lock a vulnerable enemy into place so you can full attack them next round, or to defeat high AC by giving them prone penalties or turning it into a grapple contest instead of a to-hit vs AC contest. The reach/trip weapon is a key part of this strategy...if you move next to somebody and trip them, they can't stand up and run away without you getting another chance to lock them into place by tripping them as they run away. (you can only hit them as they stand, but as they move, that's another AOO). Vs mirror image, invisibility and similar things, going for grapple if the enemy can be grappled is nice, as it eliminates the miss chance once you get your mitts on them. If the enemy is easily tripped and easy to hit anyway you can just turn that trip bonus into damage (even at 1-1 power attack, when you get 4 attacks, three at top iterative, the trip penalty translates into 16 damage added to your full attack if all attacks hit)

Many level 10+ enemies aren't vulnerable to these options, but some are. they can be devastating vs targets that are vulnerable, and your mobility should allow you to get at them.

There's cash enough for a sacred weapon or a golembane adamantine weapon and you may wish to consider that. If you fight a lot of outsiders and undead though, try to talk the cleric into casting undead bane weapon on your fist (Libris Mortis....lL4 spell that lasts hour/level and lets you penetrate DR/Good and gives "bane undead" on your fist). If you fight a lot of constructs ask the cleric to prepare Earth's Hammer from Races of Stone (L5 swift spell that makes your fist adamantine AND a size category larger in damage potential = instant golem hash without even burning a caster std action)
Oppesia
11-28-06, 07:49 AM [[ignore this post, I was being silly, ahem.]]
Oppesia
11-28-06, 12:22 PM Can you tell me where on earth Boots of Haste are from? I hear about them everywhere but I just can't find them anywhere! Sorry for being insanely stupid.
solbergb
11-28-06, 01:31 PM Dungeon Master Guide.

13000ish gold
PhaedrusXY
11-28-06, 01:36 PM They're actually called Boots of Speed.
Phoenix00
11-28-06, 02:11 PM Couldn't a Monk's Belt be subsituted for a belt of giant strength? It is cheaper and gives +5 Monk Damage Levels

Also take the feat Superior Unarmed Strike another +4monk levels.

Right now you are 10th level, but as soon as you get 11th level there is no reason why you should remain a pure monk (11 base+4 superior unarmed strike+5 monk belt=20 the cap for monk unarmed damage, 11 also gives you flurry with no penalties). If you absolutely can't think of a good prestige or multi class, Psionic Fist or Zerth Cenobite is better than nothing. (If you go this route don't take superior unarmed strike unless you can retrain.)
Oppesia
11-29-06, 01:38 PM Couldn't a Monk's Belt be subsituted for a belt of giant strength? It is cheaper and gives +5 Monk Damage Levels

Please explain this? How does the Monk's Belt add 5 Monk Damage Levels? I'm not reading the description that way at all o_O
solbergb
11-29-06, 04:16 PM Couldn't a Monk's Belt be subsituted for a belt of giant strength? It is cheaper and gives +5 Monk Damage Levels

No.

+4 strength adds to grapple check, trip check, adds +2 to hit and +2 to damage.

All the monks belt does is add about +1.5 to damage (goes from 5.5 avg damage to 7 damage) and +1 to armor class.

There is really no comparison. The belt is better offensively on every count.
Oppesia
12-01-06, 07:50 AM Here's what I've got so far;

Monk 10,

Feats:
Improved Trip(monk), Combat Reflexes(monk), Improved Unarmed Strike(monk), Stunning Fist(monk), Dodge, Defensive Throw, Superior Unarmed Strike, [[1 free]]

Items:
Belt of Giant Strength (+4), Amulet of Health (+4), Gloves of Dex (+2), Ioun stone of Wis (+2), Boots of Speed, Handy Haversack

Base;
STR- 14 (+2 racial / +2 level gains)
DEX- 14 (+2 racial)
CON- 14
INT- 10
WIS- 14 (+2 racial)
CHA- 10 (-2 racial)

With items;
STR- 22
DEX- 18
CON- 18
INT- 10
WIS- 18
CHA- 8

I know I don't need the charisma, but my character design doesn't fit with charisma-6 (while charisma-8 is more passable! Bad, rather than horrific!)

How is it? Any ideas on what my unused feat should be?
solbergb
12-01-06, 11:45 AM Your final feat should be Improved Natural Attack (making your fist do 2d8 instead of 1d10)

You will find that feat in the Monster Manual, and you will find the ruling that allows it to be used by monks (and the logic behind it) in the official version 3.5 FAQ.

Your build looks pretty solid, it should do what you wanted (be a monk with cool tricks but still a strong offensive contributor compared to other party members if you just flurry at thinhgs)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Oppesia 11-26-06, 07:48 PM	Hey, I'm a long-time lurker, first time poster (I actually registered just to post this!) Despite hanging around, I'm not really very good with the whole character creation thing... I read through the monk handbook (well, http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=48573) but I'm not so good at sticking it all together into a usable character, and I was wondering if someone could shove me in the right direction? I'm playing as a Zenythri (+2str/+2dex/+2wis/-2cha, medium sized). They have an ECL of 2, but it's actually a level 11 campaign (so I get 10 levels of Monk, or whatever goes well with Monk... I tend to stray away from multiclassing because it confuses me! If there are any must-haves, Zenythri have favoured class monk so I can take other classes without penalties) We're only 28-point buy, unfortunately. We have usual gold for a level 11 character, and so long as it's reasonable for a character of that level my DM will let me get away with it. My character will be lawful good, we're a very good party. I've got a good idea of his skills already (he's taking a lot of roguey-skills, because we're missing a skillful character). My main problem is that he HAS to be pretty strong and I'm not sure I know how to do it. My team-mates are a full-cleric who's out with the buffs and a halfdragon fighter-type (with who it's usual to see dish out over 70 damage a turn). I can be overshadowed, but I don't want to be completely useless by comparison! By my character design, I'd rather that he didn't wear too much armour or the like. My sheets of him have him pretty much naked and I wanted to keep it that way! (I'm not perverted, really!) I can use any 3.5 books, but not things published in Dragon Magazine (or things from specific campaigns, like eberron). Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thankyou! :)
LordMongoose 11-26-06, 07:54 PM	A simple build uses Defensive Throw/Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit and gets attacks on everybody. It's pretty fun and also easy to build. Toss in a level of Swordsage to pick up a Shadow Hand stance and get a free weapon focus on your UAS and Shadow Blade for some real fun.
zarzak 11-26-06, 07:55 PM	You'll definiltey want Improved Natural Attack (from the monster manual) at 6th level to bump your damage.
Oppesia 11-26-06, 08:31 PM	Thanks a lot, it's nice to have something to start with : )
Oppesia 11-27-06, 05:47 AM	Hmm, it's strange to me that neither of you mentioned the Vow of Poverty, is it not worth taking when you're already level 11 (almost 12)? I hear it gets useless later, but I thought it was a "ZOMG MUST HAFF" for monks everywhere?
solbergb 11-27-06, 12:55 PM	Here is a very basic generalized monk build that doesn't suck, has all the monk tactical options with respectable damage dealing and is fairly easy to understand/play. It or something similar is usually what I recommend to new monk players that don't have much else in mind other than "I want to play a monk." - it does everything monks do, without becoming too much of a one-trick-pony in any aspect Attributes (28 point buy, 2 statbumps to strength) str 20, dex 16 con 14 wis 16 int 8 cha 6 after equipment str 24 dex 18 con 18 wis 18 int 8 cha 6 hp/saves after equipment: hp 89 (max L1 and alternating 5 and 4 afterwards) fort: +15 Reflex: +15 Will: +15 Buy balance and jump to 5 ranks max tumble (13 ranks) other skills to suit your taste...you'll have 16 ranks to play with. L1 Stun Fist (bonus), imp grapple L2 combat reflexes (bonus) L3 power attack L4 L5 L6 imp trip (bonus), improved natural attack L9 (whatever feat you like) Equipment: 88000gp correct? 75 k of basic stuff 16k Belt of Giant Strength+4 16k amulet health+4 4k gloves dex+2 8k ioun stone wisdom+2 13k boots of haste 16k vest of resistance+4 2k handy haversack mw spiked chain (or other reach weapon, nonproficient is ok, or you can use the L9 feat for proficiency if you want more 2-handed power attacking smack on single attacks or AOO's. If you spend a feat, make it a magical chain.) potions of clw, mage armor, prot evil, magic fang or magic weapon, bless weapon, enlarge person (caster level 1, not the L5 version in the DMG) and fly. How many depends on how likely resupply is once you start play. Some of these you can get from casters in the party, but you need your own potions, for when they're too busy to help you. You should be getting GMW or GMF from the divine caster or arcane caster routinely on a fist. It helps you more than it helps anyone else (you can't enhance your fists to +1 for 2000gp, and you can't even hurt incorporeals with your fists without it, given the recent FAQ ruling on that topic) Triple weapon capsule retainers (Complete Adventurer) - with quickfrost/quickflame/quickspark on one retainer and quicksilver/ghostblight and your favorite element on another (make sure this is on a magic weapon, your GMW fist perhaps). Consider a third triple retainer for your reach weapon, for when you're trying to scare folks out of your threatened AOO zone. Without burning consumables and without even GMW your attack mod is (with boots of haste) +15/+15/+15/+10 2d8+7 or about 64 damage a round if they all hit. With GMW, bumps it +2 to hit and +8 damage/round. With capsule retainers burned, that adds 44 damage for one full attack per fight. If you enlarge yourself, the damage is 3d8+8 without other help, or ~85 damage (and more with GMW/capsule retainers). You'll be contributing just fine. And you'll contribute even more when you get the improved flurry at level 11. You also have a bunch of tactical options that you will find useful on some targets. You grapple at +18/18/18/13 (+5 if enlarged), you trip at +11/11/11/11 (+5 if enlarged) and you get 10 stun fists a day with DC 19, which isn't amazing, but it's practically free so why not try it on anyone who is the least bit vulnerable? Generally these maneuvers are done as part of a "move up and attack" (or AOO in case of trip) or are done on high AC targets that you're missing a lot (so a blown grapple/trip check doesn't have the opportunity cost), the idea being to lock a vulnerable enemy into place so you can full attack them next round, or to defeat high AC by giving them prone penalties or turning it into a grapple contest instead of a to-hit vs AC contest. The reach/trip weapon is a key part of this strategy...if you move next to somebody and trip them, they can't stand up and run away without you getting another chance to lock them into place by tripping them as they run away. (you can only hit them as they stand, but as they move, that's another AOO). Vs mirror image, invisibility and similar things, going for grapple if the enemy can be grappled is nice, as it eliminates the miss chance once you get your mitts on them. If the enemy is easily tripped and easy to hit anyway you can just turn that trip bonus into damage (even at 1-1 power attack, when you get 4 attacks, three at top iterative, the trip penalty translates into 16 damage added to your full attack if all attacks hit) Many level 10+ enemies aren't vulnerable to these options, but some are. they can be devastating vs targets that are vulnerable, and your mobility should allow you to get at them. There's cash enough for a sacred weapon or a golembane adamantine weapon and you may wish to consider that. If you fight a lot of outsiders and undead though, try to talk the cleric into casting undead bane weapon on your fist (Libris Mortis....lL4 spell that lasts hour/level and lets you penetrate DR/Good and gives "bane undead" on your fist). If you fight a lot of constructs ask the cleric to prepare Earth's Hammer from Races of Stone (L5 swift spell that makes your fist adamantine AND a size category larger in damage potential = instant golem hash without even burning a caster std action)
Oppesia 11-28-06, 07:49 AM	[[ignore this post, I was being silly, ahem.]]
Oppesia 11-28-06, 12:22 PM	Can you tell me where on earth Boots of Haste are from? I hear about them everywhere but I just can't find them anywhere! Sorry for being insanely stupid.
solbergb 11-28-06, 01:31 PM	Dungeon Master Guide. 13000ish gold
PhaedrusXY 11-28-06, 01:36 PM	They're actually called Boots of Speed.
Phoenix00 11-28-06, 02:11 PM	Couldn't a Monk's Belt be subsituted for a belt of giant strength? It is cheaper and gives +5 Monk Damage Levels Also take the feat Superior Unarmed Strike another +4monk levels. Right now you are 10th level, but as soon as you get 11th level there is no reason why you should remain a pure monk (11 base+4 superior unarmed strike+5 monk belt=20 the cap for monk unarmed damage, 11 also gives you flurry with no penalties). If you absolutely can't think of a good prestige or multi class, Psionic Fist or Zerth Cenobite is better than nothing. (If you go this route don't take superior unarmed strike unless you can retrain.)
Oppesia 11-29-06, 01:38 PM	Couldn't a Monk's Belt be subsituted for a belt of giant strength? It is cheaper and gives +5 Monk Damage Levels Please explain this? How does the Monk's Belt add 5 Monk Damage Levels? I'm not reading the description that way at all o_O
solbergb 11-29-06, 04:16 PM	Couldn't a Monk's Belt be subsituted for a belt of giant strength? It is cheaper and gives +5 Monk Damage Levels No. +4 strength adds to grapple check, trip check, adds +2 to hit and +2 to damage. All the monks belt does is add about +1.5 to damage (goes from 5.5 avg damage to 7 damage) and +1 to armor class. There is really no comparison. The belt is better offensively on every count.
Oppesia 12-01-06, 07:50 AM	Here's what I've got so far; Monk 10, Feats: Improved Trip(monk), Combat Reflexes(monk), Improved Unarmed Strike(monk), Stunning Fist(monk), Dodge, Defensive Throw, Superior Unarmed Strike, [[1 free]] Items: Belt of Giant Strength (+4), Amulet of Health (+4), Gloves of Dex (+2), Ioun stone of Wis (+2), Boots of Speed, Handy Haversack Base; STR- 14 (+2 racial / +2 level gains) DEX- 14 (+2 racial) CON- 14 INT- 10 WIS- 14 (+2 racial) CHA- 10 (-2 racial) With items; STR- 22 DEX- 18 CON- 18 INT- 10 WIS- 18 CHA- 8 I know I don't need the charisma, but my character design doesn't fit with charisma-6 (while charisma-8 is more passable! Bad, rather than horrific!) How is it? Any ideas on what my unused feat should be?
solbergb 12-01-06, 11:45 AM	Your final feat should be Improved Natural Attack (making your fist do 2d8 instead of 1d10) You will find that feat in the Monster Manual, and you will find the ruling that allows it to be used by monks (and the logic behind it) in the official version 3.5 FAQ. Your build looks pretty solid, it should do what you wanted (be a monk with cool tricks but still a strong offensive contributor compared to other party members if you just flurry at thinhgs)