10th level Spellthief [Archive] - Wizards Community

10th level Spellthief [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
mclimbin
01-10-06, 11:11 PM This is what I have so far, some things can change if you have any suggestions. It is also possible to change some of the gear, except for the rapier (that means no spiked chain) for items of lessor or equal value.

Ah, one more thing, a bit of cheese: this character has the ability to go invisible as per the spell one time a day per level (so 10 times here). It's a houseruled spelltouched feat (from Unearthed Arcana). <evil grin>

10th lvl spellthief
str 10
dex 18
con 12
int 14
wis 10
cha 17 (19 with cloak +2)

Weapon Finesse
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack

Rapier +1 thundering (+d8) (Can't change)
Composite long bow +1
Mithral chain shirt
Boots of haste
Amulet of Nat armor +2
Ring of protection +2
Wand of Cure light wounds
Rod of extend spell (minor)
Cloak +2 charisma

Spells:
Shield
Distract Assailant
True strike
Insightful feint
----
Cat's grace
Listening lore
wraith strike

Yes, all this has been ok'd by the DM. (!) In fact, most of it was his idea!
Any suggestions?
K
01-11-06, 03:39 AM Here are the things you must do:

A. Buy a Ring of Blinking. Its a standard action to activate and it lets you sneak attack anyone the rest of the combat as many times as you want, as well as letting you walk through walls and making half of all attacks and spells directed at you miss. Its essential Rogue equipment, cover attack, defense, and movement.

B. Upgrade that chain shirt to a Breastplate. It counts as light armor because its mithral, so you can still cast spells in it, and it provides more AC. It does have a 1 point armor check, but I'll take AC over skills any day.

C. Get Alter Self. Its a disguise spell and a combat spell(+6 natural armor and Multiattack and three natural weapons on a troglodyte form) and it lasts 10 mins. a level.

Things you'll want to consider:

D Consider a Speed weapon, and drop the rest of that stuff like the boots and the bow and the Wand and all that stuff. Its expensive, but its an extra action in combat and it'll last all day, making it worth it. To be honest, if your 10th level and you're the healer, or are doing ranged attacks while not being a dedicated archer, you're doing something wrong.

E. Buy some shuriken, and the get the spell Master's Touch. The spell makes you proficient, and they come with Quickdraw. Its nice for when you don't have a weapon in hand but you need to do a full attack, and the range of the weapon is good enough for sneak attacks.

F. You need to do many sneak attacks, rather than one sneak attack with Invisibility or Bluff. You are crippling both your sneak damage, and your spellthief stealing by not doing as many attacks as possible. I'd ditch the special Invisibility feat and put the feat into Two-weapon Fighting. Why wouldn't you want to steal 3-4 spells or spell-likes and do decent damage at the same time? Put some armor spikes on your armor and you can Two-weapon Fight with a free hand for casting spells. Then take Invisibility as a spell, for those rare times you actually need it, or just get a Ring of Invisibility for 20K.

G. Ditch Shield, and the animal buffs. They only last long enough for a combat, and you are far more effective using the rounds spent casting them to do actual combat actions, or act least use a spell like Color Spray to take a bunch of guys out of combat for a round(and set them up for sneak attacks as they are stunned).

H. True Strike and Insightful Feint are dogs with fleas. True Strike is wasting a turn to get a single hit next turn. Chances are good that two rounds of attacks will get you a hit anyway, and Insightful Fient is a spell slot to improve an already great chance to Fient. Any other spell is better.

I. Consider Rings of Theurgy and Minor Rings of Spell Storing. Both are cheap and they give you a place to put spells you have stolen for use later, before you lose them.

J. If you must have disposable items, get scrolls of Flesh to Stone and Baleful Polymorph. That way you can keep powerful enemies in your pocket and steal spell-likes off them at will. (Turn them into little turtles first, then Stone them.)

K. Consider Arcane Strike, both as a means of improving your attacks and something to do with stolen spells. Also consider Goad. Its just like Spring Attack in that if you move each round it confines an enemy to one attack a round, but it doesn't cost two feats to get it. It does take a move action and it has a chance to fail, but its based off your Cha so you are good to go.
mclimbin
01-11-06, 12:09 PM Thanks for the info! Questions:

Can I steal spells from a caster turned stoned turtle? Or would I have to change him back to his original form to get the spells off him?

I can't change the special invisibility feat, but I'll most likely take TWF for my next feat in 2 lvls.

Thanks for the advice on the spells, and all the other advice too. Some good stuff here, stuff I hadn't thought about (obviously). ;)

m
Khazra Reborn
01-11-06, 12:33 PM May i just ask what your role in the party is? If its caster killer, a spellthief with a few monk levels & ascetic mage is pretty sweet. You get a bonus to all your saves, some extra speed, your always armed and cha to AC when un-armoured.
K
01-11-06, 12:42 PM Thanks for the info! Questions:
Can I steal spells from a caster turned stoned turtle? Or would I have to change him back to his original form to get the spells off him?

You can get spells of someone in stone turtle form because unconcious creatures automatically count as willing and petrified creatures count as unconcious; unfortunatrely, spells won't come back on the next day like spell-like abilities. Spells require you to be concious each morning to get your slots back, which an unconcious creature(petrified) can't do.
mclimbin
01-11-06, 03:26 PM Aha, so I could keep the turtle in my pocket, not stoned, and as long as he is a spontaneous caster I'd get free spells every day? A wizard would have to study spells, but a sorc or bard would get their spells automatically. Right? I'd just have to look out for him trying to snap me. <ouch!>

The role will be mage-taker-outer, but I don't think I want to take the XP hit that would follow if I took some levels of monk (the character is an elf). I don't know anything about ascetic mage, where is that found? Would I need levels in monk to take it? Are there any other suggestions for prc's? From what I understand, it's best to take pure spellthief levels to at least lvl 18 so that 9th lvl spells can be nicked. I'd be interested if anyone else has any opinions.

Another question: is it possible to steal spells from divine casters? I'd think that it would not be possible for me to cast the divine spells, or even power my own slots with divine spells, but perhaps I could strip the caster of his spells?
K
01-11-06, 04:24 PM Aha, so I could keep the turtle in my pocket, not stoned, and as long as he is a spontaneous caster I'd get free spells every day? A wizard would have to study spells, but a sorc or bard would get their spells automatically. Right? I'd just have to look out for him trying to snap me. <ouch!>

Sorta: Read the section below. Note the bolded section.

SORCERERS AND BARDS
Sorcerers and bards cast arcane spells, but they do not have spellbooks and do not prepare their spells. A sorcerer’s or bard’s class level limits the number of spells he can cast (see these class descriptions). His high Charisma score might allow him to cast a few extra spells. A member of either class must have a Charisma score of at least 10 + a spell’s level to cast the spell.
Daily Readying of Spells: Each day, sorcerers and bards must focus their minds on the task of casting their spells. A sorcerer or bard needs 8 hours of rest (just like a wizard), after which he spends 15 minutes concentrating. (A bard must sing, recite, or play an instrument of some kind while concentrating.) During this period, the sorcerer or bard readies his mind to cast his daily allotment of spells. Without such a period to refresh himself, the character does not regain the spell slots he used up the day before.

That being said, I don't think an enemy spellcaster will spend that concentration time just to give you spells (though you could Charm them, I suppose)

The role will be mage-taker-outer, but I don't think I want to take the XP hit that would follow if I took some levels of monk (the character is an elf). I don't know anything about ascetic mage, where is that found? Would I need levels in monk to take it? Are there any other suggestions for prc's? From what I understand, it's best to take pure spellthief levels to at least lvl 18 so that 9th lvl spells can be nicked. I'd be interested if anyone else has any opinions.

Ascetic Mage is in Complete Adventurer, but its not a good choice for you. It lets you burn spells fofr bonuses to unarmed attack, and it switches your Monk bonus to AC to you Cha. The problem is that you'll most likely get more AC from Mage Armor than you'll get from this bonus(as Monk bonus to AC only works if you are unarmored).

As to the second part of the question: there are a host of PrCs that are good, but some are great. A level og Rogue gives Trapfinding and a Sneak die, making it ideal. I also like a one level dip into Sandshaper(Sandstorm) for the massive injection of bonus spells known. Sublime Chord or Nar Demonbinder are also good for getting higher level slots.

Generally, Spellthief is one of the few classes that is actually good for all 20 levels.

Another question: is it possible to steal spells from divine casters? I'd think that it would not be possible for me to cast the divine spells, or even power my own slots with divine spells, but perhaps I could strip the caster of his spells?

Yes, you can steal divine spells and the cast them, and Absorb Spell works with divine spells.
incubus
01-11-06, 05:42 PM Also consider Goad.

AFAIK Goad only forces a monster to attack you:
1) With melee attacks
2) If you are within the creatures reach

So goad doesn't actually ever let you remove full attacks from a creature. In fact, since someone had the bright idea to make it a standard action, you can't even combine it with expertise or fighting defensively.
K
01-12-06, 03:40 AM AFAIK Goad only forces a monster to attack you:
1) With melee attacks
2) If you are within the creatures reach

So goad doesn't actually ever let you remove full attacks from a creature. In fact, since someone had the bright idea to make it a standard action, you can't even combine it with expertise or fighting defensively.

Goad is a move action, and it activates on another monster's turn, which you can ready an action on (to move).

So it goes like this:

Turn 1, intiative count 10: You
Standard action: Ready a Standard action to move on monster's turn, before it attacks.
Move action: Goad.

Turn 1, intiative count 7: Monster
Monster's turn comes up, Goad Save comes up, and you Move before its attack.
Monster must now move to attack you if it wants to make melee attacks this turn.

Turn 2: intiative count 7
Monster and you act on the same round.

If you are using a Ring of Blinking an have a Good AC, chances are good that the monster can't even hit you with a full attack. This tactic won't remove a full atack every round, but it will remove one every other round, and thats good times.

It also puts a monster in the position of either moving into a postion of you choosing and attacking you, or losing all its melee attack each round, which can be taken advantage of by a clever party.

Basically, its an "I'm out of spells" tactic that works on large single monsters.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mclimbin 01-10-06, 11:11 PM	This is what I have so far, some things can change if you have any suggestions. It is also possible to change some of the gear, except for the rapier (that means no spiked chain) for items of lessor or equal value. Ah, one more thing, a bit of cheese: this character has the ability to go invisible as per the spell one time a day per level (so 10 times here). It's a houseruled spelltouched feat (from Unearthed Arcana). <evil grin> 10th lvl spellthief str 10 dex 18 con 12 int 14 wis 10 cha 17 (19 with cloak +2) Weapon Finesse Dodge Mobility Spring Attack Rapier +1 thundering (+d8) (Can't change) Composite long bow +1 Mithral chain shirt Boots of haste Amulet of Nat armor +2 Ring of protection +2 Wand of Cure light wounds Rod of extend spell (minor) Cloak +2 charisma Spells: Shield Distract Assailant True strike Insightful feint ---- Cat's grace Listening lore wraith strike Yes, all this has been ok'd by the DM. (!) In fact, most of it was his idea! Any suggestions?
K 01-11-06, 03:39 AM	Here are the things you must do: A. Buy a Ring of Blinking. Its a standard action to activate and it lets you sneak attack anyone the rest of the combat as many times as you want, as well as letting you walk through walls and making half of all attacks and spells directed at you miss. Its essential Rogue equipment, cover attack, defense, and movement. B. Upgrade that chain shirt to a Breastplate. It counts as light armor because its mithral, so you can still cast spells in it, and it provides more AC. It does have a 1 point armor check, but I'll take AC over skills any day. C. Get Alter Self. Its a disguise spell and a combat spell(+6 natural armor and Multiattack and three natural weapons on a troglodyte form) and it lasts 10 mins. a level. Things you'll want to consider: D Consider a Speed weapon, and drop the rest of that stuff like the boots and the bow and the Wand and all that stuff. Its expensive, but its an extra action in combat and it'll last all day, making it worth it. To be honest, if your 10th level and you're the healer, or are doing ranged attacks while not being a dedicated archer, you're doing something wrong. E. Buy some shuriken, and the get the spell Master's Touch. The spell makes you proficient, and they come with Quickdraw. Its nice for when you don't have a weapon in hand but you need to do a full attack, and the range of the weapon is good enough for sneak attacks. F. You need to do many sneak attacks, rather than one sneak attack with Invisibility or Bluff. You are crippling both your sneak damage, and your spellthief stealing by not doing as many attacks as possible. I'd ditch the special Invisibility feat and put the feat into Two-weapon Fighting. Why wouldn't you want to steal 3-4 spells or spell-likes and do decent damage at the same time? Put some armor spikes on your armor and you can Two-weapon Fight with a free hand for casting spells. Then take Invisibility as a spell, for those rare times you actually need it, or just get a Ring of Invisibility for 20K. G. Ditch Shield, and the animal buffs. They only last long enough for a combat, and you are far more effective using the rounds spent casting them to do actual combat actions, or act least use a spell like Color Spray to take a bunch of guys out of combat for a round(and set them up for sneak attacks as they are stunned). H. True Strike and Insightful Feint are dogs with fleas. True Strike is wasting a turn to get a single hit next turn. Chances are good that two rounds of attacks will get you a hit anyway, and Insightful Fient is a spell slot to improve an already great chance to Fient. Any other spell is better. I. Consider Rings of Theurgy and Minor Rings of Spell Storing. Both are cheap and they give you a place to put spells you have stolen for use later, before you lose them. J. If you must have disposable items, get scrolls of Flesh to Stone and Baleful Polymorph. That way you can keep powerful enemies in your pocket and steal spell-likes off them at will. (Turn them into little turtles first, then Stone them.) K. Consider Arcane Strike, both as a means of improving your attacks and something to do with stolen spells. Also consider Goad. Its just like Spring Attack in that if you move each round it confines an enemy to one attack a round, but it doesn't cost two feats to get it. It does take a move action and it has a chance to fail, but its based off your Cha so you are good to go.
mclimbin 01-11-06, 12:09 PM	Thanks for the info! Questions: Can I steal spells from a caster turned stoned turtle? Or would I have to change him back to his original form to get the spells off him? I can't change the special invisibility feat, but I'll most likely take TWF for my next feat in 2 lvls. Thanks for the advice on the spells, and all the other advice too. Some good stuff here, stuff I hadn't thought about (obviously). ;) m
Khazra Reborn 01-11-06, 12:33 PM	May i just ask what your role in the party is? If its caster killer, a spellthief with a few monk levels & ascetic mage is pretty sweet. You get a bonus to all your saves, some extra speed, your always armed and cha to AC when un-armoured.
K 01-11-06, 12:42 PM	Thanks for the info! Questions: Can I steal spells from a caster turned stoned turtle? Or would I have to change him back to his original form to get the spells off him? You can get spells of someone in stone turtle form because unconcious creatures automatically count as willing and petrified creatures count as unconcious; unfortunatrely, spells won't come back on the next day like spell-like abilities. Spells require you to be concious each morning to get your slots back, which an unconcious creature(petrified) can't do.
mclimbin 01-11-06, 03:26 PM	Aha, so I could keep the turtle in my pocket, not stoned, and as long as he is a spontaneous caster I'd get free spells every day? A wizard would have to study spells, but a sorc or bard would get their spells automatically. Right? I'd just have to look out for him trying to snap me. <ouch!> The role will be mage-taker-outer, but I don't think I want to take the XP hit that would follow if I took some levels of monk (the character is an elf). I don't know anything about ascetic mage, where is that found? Would I need levels in monk to take it? Are there any other suggestions for prc's? From what I understand, it's best to take pure spellthief levels to at least lvl 18 so that 9th lvl spells can be nicked. I'd be interested if anyone else has any opinions. Another question: is it possible to steal spells from divine casters? I'd think that it would not be possible for me to cast the divine spells, or even power my own slots with divine spells, but perhaps I could strip the caster of his spells?
K 01-11-06, 04:24 PM	Aha, so I could keep the turtle in my pocket, not stoned, and as long as he is a spontaneous caster I'd get free spells every day? A wizard would have to study spells, but a sorc or bard would get their spells automatically. Right? I'd just have to look out for him trying to snap me. <ouch!> Sorta: Read the section below. Note the bolded section. SORCERERS AND BARDS Sorcerers and bards cast arcane spells, but they do not have spellbooks and do not prepare their spells. A sorcerer’s or bard’s class level limits the number of spells he can cast (see these class descriptions). His high Charisma score might allow him to cast a few extra spells. A member of either class must have a Charisma score of at least 10 + a spell’s level to cast the spell. Daily Readying of Spells: Each day, sorcerers and bards must focus their minds on the task of casting their spells. A sorcerer or bard needs 8 hours of rest (just like a wizard), after which he spends 15 minutes concentrating. (A bard must sing, recite, or play an instrument of some kind while concentrating.) During this period, the sorcerer or bard readies his mind to cast his daily allotment of spells. Without such a period to refresh himself, the character does not regain the spell slots he used up the day before. That being said, I don't think an enemy spellcaster will spend that concentration time just to give you spells (though you could Charm them, I suppose) The role will be mage-taker-outer, but I don't think I want to take the XP hit that would follow if I took some levels of monk (the character is an elf). I don't know anything about ascetic mage, where is that found? Would I need levels in monk to take it? Are there any other suggestions for prc's? From what I understand, it's best to take pure spellthief levels to at least lvl 18 so that 9th lvl spells can be nicked. I'd be interested if anyone else has any opinions. Ascetic Mage is in Complete Adventurer, but its not a good choice for you. It lets you burn spells fofr bonuses to unarmed attack, and it switches your Monk bonus to AC to you Cha. The problem is that you'll most likely get more AC from Mage Armor than you'll get from this bonus(as Monk bonus to AC only works if you are unarmored). As to the second part of the question: there are a host of PrCs that are good, but some are great. A level og Rogue gives Trapfinding and a Sneak die, making it ideal. I also like a one level dip into Sandshaper(Sandstorm) for the massive injection of bonus spells known. Sublime Chord or Nar Demonbinder are also good for getting higher level slots. Generally, Spellthief is one of the few classes that is actually good for all 20 levels. Another question: is it possible to steal spells from divine casters? I'd think that it would not be possible for me to cast the divine spells, or even power my own slots with divine spells, but perhaps I could strip the caster of his spells? Yes, you can steal divine spells and the cast them, and Absorb Spell works with divine spells.
incubus 01-11-06, 05:42 PM	Also consider Goad. AFAIK Goad only forces a monster to attack you: 1) With melee attacks 2) If you are within the creatures reach So goad doesn't actually ever let you remove full attacks from a creature. In fact, since someone had the bright idea to make it a standard action, you can't even combine it with expertise or fighting defensively.
K 01-12-06, 03:40 AM	AFAIK Goad only forces a monster to attack you: 1) With melee attacks 2) If you are within the creatures reach So goad doesn't actually ever let you remove full attacks from a creature. In fact, since someone had the bright idea to make it a standard action, you can't even combine it with expertise or fighting defensively. Goad is a move action, and it activates on another monster's turn, which you can ready an action on (to move). So it goes like this: Turn 1, intiative count 10: You Standard action: Ready a Standard action to move on monster's turn, before it attacks. Move action: Goad. Turn 1, intiative count 7: Monster Monster's turn comes up, Goad Save comes up, and you Move before its attack. Monster must now move to attack you if it wants to make melee attacks this turn. Turn 2: intiative count 7 Monster and you act on the same round. If you are using a Ring of Blinking an have a Good AC, chances are good that the monster can't even hit you with a full attack. This tactic won't remove a full atack every round, but it will remove one every other round, and thats good times. It also puts a monster in the position of either moving into a postion of you choosing and attacking you, or losing all its melee attack each round, which can be taken advantage of by a clever party. Basically, its an "I'm out of spells" tactic that works on large single monsters.