Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kadeity 01-20-07, 03:39 AM	This is my 10th level Archer build. The build focuses on spreading out damage over large areas with a rain of arrows... and is primarily a ranger build. Books Used in the Build: CompleteAdventurer,CompleteScoundrel, PHB, XPHB Youll need a 17 dex, and a minimum 15 dex to even consider this build, and then youll ahve to put your 2 ability points into it to get to 17, since Greater Manyshot Requires it. -------------------------------------- Scout 1, Ranger 9 1st level:Scout1 1st Level Feat: Point Blank Shot. Skirmish (1d6)& Trapfinding Notes: Scouts have lots of skill points. If your Playing a human you get an extra feat... and MORE skill points. 2nd level:Ranger1 Favored Enemy, Track, Wild Empathy 3rd level:Ranger2 3rd Level Feat: Swift Hunter (found in CompleteScoundrel.) Skirmish (1d6 +1AC) Combat Style:Rapid Shot. Notes: Swift Hunter lets ranger and scout levels stack for skirmish and favored enemies. It is the key to the build, since it allows a rangers good BAB to be in the same place as Skirmish, and since your using ranger, you require fewer feats to get where your going. 4th level:Ranger3 Endurance Notes:This level is pretty boring. 5th level:Ranger4 Skirmish (2d6 +1AC) Animal Companion 6th level:Ranger5 6th Level Feat: Improved Skirmish (found in CompleteScoundrel) 2nd Favored Enemy Notes: improved skirmish lets you add (2d6 skirmish and +2AC) to your skirmish damage in any round where you move more than 20ft. 7th level:Ranger6 10ft Skirmish (2d6 +2AC) 20ft Skirmish (4d6 +4AC) Combat Style:Manyshot 8th level:Ranger7 Swift Tracker Notes: Another relatively dull level. 9th level:Ranger8 9th Level Feat: Greater Manyshot (from XPHB) 10ft Skirmish (3d6 +2AC) 20ft Skirmish (5d6 +4AC) Evasion 10th level:Ranger9 3rd Favored Enemy (At lvl 11 you get another BAB... ....and can fire an additional arrow with manyshot) -------------------------------------- So heres the Idea. At 10th level, if you move 30ft, and then take a standard action to fire a Skirmishing GreaterManyshot you can... hit two targets for 1d8 Comp. Longbow + 5d6 Skirmish or hit one target for 2d8 Comp.Longbow +10d6 skirmish Magic Items Add in a Mighty Composite Longbow for extra damage and your set. You could also use the Quiver of Energy (p.114 of CompletePsionic) to add 1d6 of the quivers energy type to every arrow you fire. Variants and Extra Rules Distracting Attack one of the best options is to trade your animal companion for Distracting Attack(p.55 phb2) which makes any enemy hit by any of your attacks, count as if flanked for that round. Since your a High Dex Build, youll likely be near the front of the initiative, and all targets you hit will count as flanked for the rest of the turn. If you wanted an interesting oprion to the Improved Skirmish approach, and have the CHA for it, you could Take Leadership and get a Rogue Cohort...and let them clean up every round after your rain of arrows. SpellsChampions of Ruin is worth looking at, if only because of the 11 amazing Ranger spells in it. Almost all of them have "arrow" in the name, but ill leave looking at them up to you. Targetteer On page 39 of Dragon Magazine issue#310 there is a variant fighter called the Targetteer. I wont post its special rules, as it is very different from the fighter, but this class may sacrifice one bonus feat for any of three special abilities... all of which are nice for a one level dip. Ill list the abilities, but some have prerequisites, which i will not list. Youll ahve to get the issue yourself. Arrow Swarm= you can make two extra attacks as part of a full attack, but all attacks during that round take a -5, and they all must be made with a bow. Sniper= as a full round action you may make a single attack, sacrificing all extra attacks you could ahve made to increase the critical threat range of your single attack by one for each attack sacrificed. Vital Aim= You can add your Dex mod to your ranged damage...Which is the icing on the cake for me. Anyway, this is my build. I love it. You should love it too.
GaffeR 01-20-07, 03:42 AM	Unfortunately, I believe Swift Hunter requires Skirmish 1d6/+1 AC, which means 3 levels of Scout and 1 of Ranger. Tweak your build thusly (assuming Wood Elf, or other, less Optimized, non human): Scout 1 - Point Blank Shot Ranger 1 Track* Ranger 2 Rapid Shot* Scout 2 - Precise Shot Scout 3 Ranger 3 - Swift Hunter, Endurance* Ranger 4 Ranger 5 Ranger 6 - Manyshot*, Greater Manyshot* Edit: This is not my build. It was taken from whoever it was that was doing a Flyby SoK build. Kudos, whoever you were (Phoenix00 maybe?).
kadeity 01-20-07, 03:57 AM	CRAP. ok, let me try again. -------------------------------------- Scout 4, Ranger 6 Human: Weapon Focus: composite longbow. 1st level:Scout1 1st Level Feat: Point Blank Shot. Skirmish (1d6) Trapfinding 2nd level:Scout2 Battle Fortitude, +1 uncanny dodge 3rd level:Scout3 3rd Level Feat: Skirmish (1d6 +1AC) Fast Movement+1, Trackless Step 4th level:Ranger1 1st Favored enemy, Track, Wild Empathy 5th level:Scout 4 Skirmish (2d6 +1AC) Bonus Feat: Swift Hunter (found in CompleteScoundrel.) 6th level:Ranger2 6th Level Feat: Improved Skirmish (found in CompleteScoundrel) Combat Style: Rapid Shot 7th level:Ranger3 10ft Skirmish (2d6 +2AC) 20ft Skirmish (4d6 +4AC) Endurance 8th level:Ranger4 Distracting Shot (instead of Animal Companion) 9th level:Ranger5 9th Level Feat: 10ft Skirmish (3d6 +2AC) 20ft Skirmish (5d6 +4AC) 2nd Favored Enemy 10th level:Ranger6 Improved Combat Style: Manyshot ----------------------------------- Im going to do one of two things. If my dm lets me take manyshot as my 9th level feat, and get Greater Manyshot in place of my ImprovedCombat Style, ill do that. If not... im going to take Manyshot, and do my 10th level in targeteer to get vital aim (dex to damage). I may ask if i can take a flaw so i can get greater manyshot as well.
LiamDeclan 01-20-07, 04:00 AM	yeah Phoenix00 had that build. Also there have been several posters already that have put up the same build. The ranger option of getting rid of the animal companion was new and so was getting a cohort. Those weren't bad ideas. There is a Dragon magazine that if you have Weapon Focus in a bow and point blank shot you can get this feat called Dead-Eye Shot that lets you add in dexterity to damage. Can't remember the issue but its a old one. Still 3.0 I think.
kadeity 01-20-07, 04:29 AM	There is a Dragon magazine that if you have Weapon Focus in a bow and point blank shot you can get this feat called Dead-Eye Shot that lets you add in dexterity to damage. Can't remember the issue but its a old one. Still 3.0 I think. yeah i know that, but Issue 310 has a specialist fighter who can get Dex to ranged damage at first level. Its called Targeteer. As it is right now, without a 9th level feat, i can fire two arrows at one target, make him count as flanked... and deal (2d8 composite longbow +10d6 skirmish) as long as i move 20 ft. theres a scout variant in the phb2 that lets you trade fast movement and evasion for a Climb Speed equal to half your land speed... and i may use that as well... so that i can at least melee weapon skirmish when my dm tries to put me in narrow corridors.
kadeity 01-20-07, 04:47 AM	and i was wrong about the favored enemies on the build. after 5th level, you gain them retroactively, like you were ranger 10.
VonRichthofen 01-20-07, 04:59 AM	Targeteer does NOT give you Dex to damage, it replaces Str with Dex - and that's whimpy precision damage. So it's quite right for a high-dex build, but not as good as some would make it.
LiamDeclan 01-20-07, 05:01 AM	yeah i know that, but Issue 310 has a specialist fighter who can get Dex to ranged damage at first level. Its called Targeteer. As it is right now, without a 9th level feat, i can fire two arrows at one target, make him count as flanked... and deal (2d8 composite longbow +10d6 skirmish) as long as i move 20 ft. theres a scout variant in the phb2 that lets you trade fast movement and evasion for a Climb Speed equal to half your land speed... and i may use that as well... so that i can at least melee weapon skirmish when my dm tries to put me in narrow corridors. Well what I am saying is that you can forget Targeteer, you already meet the Dead-Eye Shot requirements with the feats you have listed in your build. Why take a level in fighter/targeteer to get the class ability when you could take the feat and still stay with Ranger/Scout as your only 2 classes?
kadeity 01-20-07, 05:04 AM	Well what I am saying is that you can forget Targeteer, you already meet the Dead-Eye Shot requirements with the feats you have listed in your build. Why take a level in fighter/targeteer to get the class ability when you could take the feat and still stay with Ranger/Scout as your only 2 classes? because DeadEye requires a +14 BAB. i just looked it up earlier.
VonRichthofen 01-20-07, 05:05 AM	Well what I am saying is that you can forget Targeteer, you already meet the Dead-Eye Shot requirements with the feats you have listed in your build. Why take a level in fighter/targeteer to get the class ability when you could take the feat and still stay with Ranger/Scout as your only 2 classes? Both of these are of questionable conformity to 3.5 rules. Taking a level in a class that grants this ability might seem a little more honest than pulling out some obscure Dragon feat - alltough it's an obscure Dragon class he'll be taking...;)
kadeity 01-20-07, 05:26 PM	LOL, doesnt matter. my dmd just said i didnt have the xp for lvl 10...so im still 9.
LiamDeclan 01-20-07, 07:00 PM	because DeadEye requires a +14 BAB. i just looked it up earlier. I just looked up the feat as well and it states: Dex +13, BAB +1, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus any ranged weapon. Dragon magazine #304, page 84
kadeity 01-21-07, 12:55 AM	neat. i was looking at the one in Dragon Compendium. It must be typoed....
kadeity 01-21-07, 03:50 AM	- equipment: as I said, best ranged weapon enhancement: splitting from Champions of ruin turns every flying arrow into two. If it weren't for the fact that a 3rd level cleric with Wind wall can make you feel stupid, it would be great. No, not just great, it'd be incredible. Every arrow - that's essentially speed + extra attacks, without wasting more ammo. I wouldn't be surprised if the DM at least disallows precision damage on the extra arrows. Oh my. I completely overlooked that O_o that makes some very important changes to one of my builds. I was running a Scout4/Ranger6... I had Manyshot,Greater Manyshot,Swift Hunter and Improved Skirmish. Basically... i was firing 2 arrows at 1d8 each, at seperate targets, and tacking 5d6 skirmish damage on the end of them. WITH THIS.... I think I can deal 2d8 + 10d6, to two targets... or 4d8 +20d6 at one.. O_o thats amazing. its quite literally better than speed because skirmish damage occurs with each Attack roll, so i had to fire at seperate targets to get the extra damage off of my 2 two arrowed attacks. Now, i can fire a single shot, with two arrows, and roll four attack rolls, meaning i get 4x the skirmish damage. Someone tell me im wrong. please. This is too good to be legal.
VonRichthofen 01-21-07, 04:25 AM	Someone tell me im wrong. please. This is too good to be legal. Unless you're playing Forgotten Realms, it is indeed illegal.
LiamDeclan 01-21-07, 11:18 AM	Unless you're playing Forgotten Realms, it is indeed illegal. I don't seem to understand your logic here, please explain.
kadeity 01-23-07, 02:46 AM	i was looking for a contradiction in rules text... and since there isnt one, then this is legal. Your idea of something being against the rules just because its from a different setting is insane. Its like saying no ones allowed to play an artificer in anything but eberron, ever. THAT sort of thing is ambiguous, and up to your dm. And in case you didnt know, Dragon magazine says on the COVER that its 100% official dnd content. Wizards borrows MOST of their new material from Dragon magazine. The vast majority of the Spell compendium IS from dragon... so i dont see something as "questionable" or "shady" just ebcause its from dragon. Its no different than another DND sourcebook. anyway....back on topic... i think that this build just got A LOT better. At 9th level, i can shoot 2 arrows, at the same target, with one shot. These arrows split into two identical arrows midair. Thats four arrows total, all of whihc need an individual attack rool, and the attack roll means they all get skirmish damage. 1d8 +5d6 x4 or if they all hit, 4d8 + 20d6 damage. and this is level nine.
kadeity 01-23-07, 02:58 AM	My biggest problem with this build so far is that i DONT see any prestige classes that i like that help it at all. I could easily keep ranger the rest of the way to 20... but the ENTIRE reason im doing it is to get fill BAB progression & skirmish damage. Highland Stalker (p.55 Comp.Adv.) offers Skirmish and full attack progression, but has lower skill points per level compared to ranger, and costs me one skirish AC... all the while giving very conditional abilities.
kadeity 01-23-07, 09:06 AM	So this is my arrow machine build. Im actually currently running this as a PC... though the build im using is slightly different. Anyway, i thought id post it here, and share my ideas. Ive seen a few build SIMILAR to mine, but none quite like it. Alot of people are using the Complete scoundrel feats... But i dont think anyone is using them like I am. --------------------------------- Scout 4, Ranger 16 --------------------------------- Human: Weapon Focus: Composite Longbow. 1st level:Scout1 1st Level Feat: Point Blank Shot. Skirmish (1d6) Trapfinding 2nd level:Scout2 Battle Fortitude, +1 uncanny dodge 3rd level:Scout3 3rd Level Feat: (see other options section) Skirmish (1d6 +1AC) Fast Movement+1, Trackless Step 4th level:Ranger1 Track, Wild Empathy 1st Favored Enemy: Undead 5th level:Scout 4 Skirmish (2d6 +1AC) Bonus Feat: Swift Hunter (CompleteScoundrel) 2nd Favored Enemy:Constructs 6th level:Ranger2 6th Level Feat: Improved Skirmish (CompleteScoundrel) Combat Style: Rapid Shot 7th level:Ranger3 10ft Skirmish (2d6 +2AC) 20ft Skirmish (4d6 +4AC) Endurance 8th level:Ranger4 Distracting Shot (instead of Animal Companion) 9th level:Ranger5 9th Level Feat: Woodland Archer(Races of the Wild) 10ft Skirmish (3d6 +2AC) 20ft Skirmish (5d6 +4AC) 10th level:Ranger6 Improved Combat Style: Manyshot 3rd Favored Enemy: Oozes 11th level:Ranger7 10ft Skirmish (4d6 +3AC) 20ft Skirmish (6d6 +5AC) Woodland Stride 12th level:Ranger8 12th Level Feat: Greater Manyshot Swift Tracker 13th level:Ranger9 10ft Skirmish (4d6 +3AC) 20ft Skirmish (6d6 +5AC) Evasion 14th level:Ranger10 15th level:Ranger11 10ft Skirmish (4d6 +4AC) 20ft Skirmish (6d6 +6AC) 15th Level Feat: Penetrating Shot(phb2) 4th Favored Enemy: Plants Combat Style Mastery: Improved Precise Shot 16th level:Ranger12 17th level:Ranger13 10ft Skirmish (5d6 +4AC) 20ft Skirmish (7d6 +6AC) Camoflage 18th level:Ranger14 18th Level Feat: (see other options section) 19th level:Ranger15 10ft Skirmish (5d6 +5AC) 20ft Skirmish (7d6 +7AC) 20th level:Ranger16 5th Favored Enemy: Dungeon Masters.:D ---------------------------------- GEAR Youll obviously want a Good bow. This build hinges heavily on you eventually using either a bow of"Speed"(+3cost) or a bow of "Splitting"(+3cost, Champions of Ruin). What Splitting does is it makes each arrow fired from the bow split, midair, into two identical arrows, both of which require an individual attack roll...meaning you get skirmish damage on every new arrow. Combined with greater manyshot, this is quite a bit of damage. If your Dm wont let you have Splitting because its from a Forgotten realms supplement, then youll just have to use a bow of Speed. Its essentially the same effect as the Splitting bow, except youll be using twice as many arrows as if you had a splitting bow... and cant spit out as many arrows on a full-attack. Archers always worry about what happens when the bad people are close to you. Well two things to help with that are an Animated Sheild... and an Elvencraft Bow. Elvencraft is a weapon quality from Races of the Wild, and costs +300 gp. Basically itll make your Longbow Work like a quarterstaff in melee. A Low level item for this build is the Quiver of Elhonna... it lets you hold sixty arrows and some javelins and spare bows. Id probably pick up an aquatic bow as well... and you ALWAYS need masterwork arrows. An item youll want to pick up, as soon as possible, is the Quiver of Plenty. its an item from the Dragon Compendium that makes infinite arrows(wooden, cold iron & silver)... and its about 18,000 gp. Another item i find quite handy are the Slippers of SpiderClimbing. These let you spiderclimb for 100 rounds a day... and thats pretty good, especially if you get plunging shot. DAMAGE OUTPUT @7th level= one 1d8 arrow and only 4d6 skirmish damage(if you move 20ft), because you dont have Manyshot yet...and probably cant afford the +3 cost of a "splitting" bow. but you at least always get your skirmish against undead and constructs. @12th level=three 1d8 arrows,6d6 skirmish(if you move 20ft) on EACH. each requires an attack roll... and all attack rolls get a -6 (your bab is 11)... BUT, all three of those arrows split, meaning its actually SIX attack rolls. Thats a potential damage of 6d8 +36d6 skirmish. ALSO, you took Woodland Archer at 9th level... meaning every time one of your arrows miss, all the rest get a +4 to hit as long as its headed toward the same enemy. (I really dont think this is cumalative for each miss, but it might be.) And youve also added oozes to your list of favorite victims. @17th level=four 1d8 arrows,7d6 skirmish damage(if you move 20ft). You can fire four arrows while skirmishing...all of which will split midair... thats 8 attack rolls with a -8 each, but your bab is 16 by now. Youve got a potential damage of 8d8 + 56d6 skirmish damage... and all this damage can be handed out to anyone, including Undead,Constructs,Oozes,& Plants. Remember that BEFORE they split, you can divide your arrows up however you choose to whatever targets, thanks to Greater manyshot... And remmber that EVERY target you hit counts as Flanked for the rest of the round, because of Disruptive Attack... the phb2 variant you traded in your animal companion for. This means if theres a rogue in the party, you two will be great friends. If you decide you dont want to skirmish, or for some reason cant.. realize that if you take a FULL ATTACK at level 17, then you can shoot four times... meaning, if you have a splitting bow& use manyshot, that your putting 16 arrows out there, and can direct them as you choose at targets... BUT that those 16 arrows split and become 32 arrows, dealing 2d8 to every target. Sure you dont get skirmish on a full attack, but your a one man Arrow Volley. Biggest problem? Keeping stocked on arrows. FEATS Your gonna get these feats no matter what... since they are part of the class. Rapid Shot(PHB) ,Endurance(PHB) ,Manyshot(PHB) ,Improved Precise Shot(PHB) these are required for the build to work. Point Blank Shot(PHB) Swift Hunter (CompleteScoundrel)(lets your scout and ranger levels stack for Skirmish, favored enemies, and makes sure your favored enemies take skirmish damage, even if they would normally be immune.) Improved Skirmish (CompleteScoundrel)(adds +2d6 skirmish and +2 AC if you move 20ft) Greater Manyshot(XPHB)(lets you fire multiple arrows at multiple targets. each arrow gets its own attack roll) Far Shot (PHB): I took this to qualify for a Dragon magazine feat. Weapon Focus: Composite Longbow(PHB) is just a good idea... but not required, nor is being human. Distracting Shot(PHB2 variant) (instead of Animal Companion, you gain this ability. All your enemies hit by your attacks count as flanked for the rest of the round.) Not required either...but is a very good idea. Another variant in the PHB2 gives scouts a climb speed. Woodland Archer(Races of the Wild) gives you three tactical maneuvers, all of whihc are helpful, but the one that gives you +4 to ranged attacks on a target after youve missed them... thats the best part. Penetrating Shot(phb2) lets you attack everyone in a 60ft line with your arrows, though im sure the only ones who take skirmish damage are the ones withing 30ft. ABILITY SCORES STR is fairly important because it adds to damage when using the composite bow buildt for it. If your dm allows it however, you can neglect Str and instead take the dragon magazine feat Dead Eye to get dex to damage. If not, youll need Str. DEX is pretty much required to be your highest stat. I mean this IS a ranged weapon build. You DO want to hit things right? CON isnt the MOST important thing, but we always need hp. You have d8hd all the way, but you only get light armor. Likely, eventually, your gonna get hit. INT is pretty ok, but you get fair skill points the whole time...so if you want, you can still be passable with a lower int. WIS is a must have, if you ever want to cast anything, ever. Its also important if your hoping to Spot, or listen, or be scouty in any way.If you dont, then who cares. Waste this puppy. CHA only matters in this build if your hoping to have a furry friend. If your not, then dont worry. I mean theres nothing you can bluff that you cant shoot. SPELLS The best Archery Ranger spells are found in Champions of Ruin, the smae book that Splitting is found in. I wont post the full rules, but heres the Jist. All these spells can be cast as a swift action, and must be cast on a masterwork arrow. 1st Woodwhisp arrow(passes through wood) 2nd Brilliant Energy Arrow(you get the idea Spellslayer Arrow(extra damage to those with ongoing spells) 3rd Arrowsplit(splits arrow into several, midflight) Darkflame Arrow(re occuring damage for a few rounds) 4th Bloodfreeze arrow(paralysis and extra cold damage) doublestrike arrow(hits 2 targets) shadow arrow(does str damage) OTHER OPTIONS these are things i didnt include in the build because i know most people dont consider Dragon Magazine to be 'canon'. Issue 346, page 86 has Variants and feats for the Scout. Acrobatic Skirmisher gives bonus skirmish damage if you tumble as part of your movement... which is cool because tumbling avoids attacks of oppertunity anyway. theres also an Improved Version of this feat. Ranged Skirmisher requires, among other things, far shot... but lets you skirmish at a range of 60ft. This is a REALLY good feat if your Dm is ok with Dragon sources. Im using it right now on this character :) In this same issue theres also a variant that lets the Scout have a mount similar to the paladins mount, with the idea that you could skirmish and full attack at the same time...but sadly the CompleteAdventurer Erratta says that you CANT skirmish while mounted...so the mount variant isnt nearly as good. Issue 304 ,page 84 has a feat called Dead Eye whcih lets you get your Dex mod to ranged damage. If your dm will allow dragon magazine feats, by all means, take this... my version that i play did. FINAL NOTE this is a pretty stout build. It can rain arrows, has alot of skill points, and a near full BAB progression. You get to move alot, disarm traps, be a skill monkey, and deal lots of damage... and the best part, is if you pickyour favored enemies right, you get to deal alot of damage to things that usually DONT have to deal with lots of suprise damage from crits and the like. Your faster than the rest of the party, in both movement and initiative. Your stealthy, and deadly... and your my favorite character in a very very long time :D
Rokku 01-27-07, 07:29 PM	Working on a build very similar to this today, I've found I prefer going Scout 3/Ranger6/Scout4/Ranger7-16. This delays Swift Hunter 'til 6, but gets Greater Manyshot at 9, then takes Scout 4 at character level 10 to grab Improved Skirmish. Also, I take Able Learner as my bonus human feat, which lets me keep raising Tumble, Disable Device, and Speak Language if I feel like it, while levelling Ranger. I think DD and Tumble are worth the feat by themselves -- Speak Language is just a bonus. I enjoy having a character who can speak and read every tongue we run across.
Phoenix00 01-27-07, 07:40 PM	Quiver of Anariel:Quivers of Anariel appear to be typical arrow containers capable of holding a score of arrows. However, the quivers automatically replenish themselves with standard or magical arrows, such that they are always full. Some quivers also create arrows made of special materials, such as adamantine, cold iron, or alchemical silver. Once an arrow it taken from the quiver, it must be used within 1 round or it vanishes. Moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, magic weapon, minor creation; Price 28,000 gp (standard arrows), 29,000 gp (masterwork arrows), 32,000 gp (+1 arrows), 44,000 gp (+2 arrows), 64,000 gp (+3 arrows), 92,000 gp (+4 arrows), 128,000 gp (+5 arrows); Add an additional +6,000 gp for adamantine arrows, +4,005 gp for cold iron arrows, or +200 gp for alchemical silver arrows; Weight 1 lb. Avaliable here, its another FR source. http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_lonedrowstats
Eilifein 01-30-07, 05:25 PM	Since im new in Forums i wanna ask you guyz sth... Isnt it good for a skirmish archer to play hide and seek with the given enemies using both full speed to skirmish 20 or 30 feet and even hide and move silently from/away from them with the Swift and Silent feat from Player's Guide to Faerun. I think also that woodland archer feat (cant find it in my books but i think i have seen it somewhere) apart from the maneuver which gives u +4 on miss, there is another one that implies that if u hit a target while hidden and u move some feet away u can roll Hide in order to hide in a different place, or sth like that. Wanna hear some replies cause i may have done mistakes over here :P