Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Luminosity 01-30-04, 02:03 AM	The Udoroot (Psionic Handbook) has six tentacles, each of which is treated as a separate creature for the purposes of using psionic powers, and therefore spells. A 15 druid wildshaped into an Udoroot should therefore be able to cast 6 regular and 6 quickened spells per round. Cheesify!
Luminosity 01-30-04, 02:08 AM	Also, a Psion Metamoprhed into one (depending on the text of Metamorphosis) could potentially manifest 18 powers per round via schism and quicken.
catharz 01-30-04, 02:09 AM	Wow! Nice!
LordShade 01-30-04, 02:29 AM	Props.
Penguin Master 01-30-04, 03:03 AM	wild shape only works with the animal subtype or if you have the proper epic wild feat or if you've taken the shifter class. I can't remember but i think the udoroot is an aberation, it's been too long since i've seen it. does the udoroot have a mouth capable of clear human speech? (requirement to cast spells with verbal components)
Luminosity 01-30-04, 03:06 AM	The Udoroot is a huge plant. Natural Spell is the feat. Check your 3.5 PHB: Druid. They get plant wildshape at 12th level and huge wildshape at 15th.
Penguin Master 01-30-04, 03:19 AM	Oh, well then that's a different story then. Nevermind. I am too used to 3.0.
PhaedrusXY 01-30-04, 03:25 AM	Wow... that is just sick.
Luminosity 01-30-04, 03:26 AM	I also believe a Verdant Lord could pull it off in 3.0 without dipping into Shifter.
Drizzt69 01-30-04, 03:28 AM	No one is going ot need to cast 18 spells in one round...
Penguin Master 01-30-04, 03:40 AM	most casters would burn out in just a few rounds.
Luminosity 01-30-04, 03:47 AM	Originally posted by Drizzt69 No one is going ot need to cast 18 spells in one round... Tell that to the 3.0 Haste/Time-Stop monkies hanging around...
Penguin Master 01-30-04, 04:00 AM	This isn't 3 or even 4 spells in one round this is 18. most casters have 50 maybe 70 spells at level 15, 18 spells per round would drain you 3-5 rounds unless of course you have scrolls then it can take longer.
Luminosity 01-30-04, 04:16 AM	Shapechange would do it too... A wiz or sorc shapechanged into an Udoroot could cast 12 spells per round, without Timestop. In 3.0, it'd be 18 with Haste.
Luminosity 01-30-04, 07:23 AM	You wouldn't have to cast 6 spells per round either. I'm not 100%, but you could also probably ready 3 or 4 counterspell actions.
Balthanon 01-30-04, 07:30 AM	Shapechange might give you these abilities, but I'm not sure about wild shape. This isn't an explicit special attack ability in the description of the creature, in fact the only place it's actually mentioned is in the combat section. That seems more like a special quality, which wild shape wouldn't grant, though it's technically not that either. The closest I think the descriptions come is the clause in alter self that states a body with extra limbs doesn't grant the ability to make more attacks. Even that doesn't fit the situation explicitly, but I don't think the wording of either of the spells really deals with something like this because it's more a matter of the mind (not an entirely appropriate phrase with a nonintelligent creature) than the body.
Luminosity 01-30-04, 07:46 AM	Fur isn't a listed quality either, but as a wolf, you get fur. Since it isn't listed as any kind of ability, one can assume that it is an intrinsic quality of the form. No sane DM would allow it, of course, but I believe that it's legitimate as far as rules are concerned.
Namarus 01-30-04, 11:08 AM	I haven't seen a reason so far why it is not legit.
Borin 01-30-04, 11:18 AM	For the folks who say you'd burn out after a few rounds of casting: of course you do. That's the point. This means you can greatly improve your offensive (and defenseive) abilities per round. You can completely buff yourself or others in the first round of combat, AND loose a volley of damage spells. And you don't have to use all those actions, you could also go on casting one or two spells per round. But more damage per round is certainly a good thing. Why would you prolong a combat? If you can end it now with 3 spells, or you could end it over the next 3 rounds? Takes the same resources, except you don't give your enemy 3 rounds to kill you and your party. The only difference in this would be your party, but when you're a wizard or a dwooid, you were probably doing most of the hard work already :mage: This just makes you 6 times as powerful, allowing you to take on harder challenges. A good thing.
Nail 01-30-04, 11:26 AM	Originally posted by Borin ..... A good thing. That implies it's something that would be used. .....And, of course, it would not. Too cheesy.
Namarus 01-30-04, 11:33 AM	Originally posted by Nail That implies it's something that would be used. .....And, of course, it would not. Too cheesy. Too cheesy????? I think you might need to go and read a different board. This is the Min/Max Boards. Hence how to optimise your character to the fullest within the rules.
pawsplay 01-30-04, 02:08 PM	A 15 druid wildshaped into an Udoroot should therefore be able to cast 6 regular and 6 quickened spells per round. Assuming your DM doesn't rule it's a special quality, I think you're still stuck with just 7. Quicken Spell says it can be used once per round. Not once per caster, or tentacle, or whatever. Reasons why this won't work: - It's a special quality, whether noted as such or not. - Wildshape is based on polymorph. Polymorph specifies what abilites you gain. "Things mentioned in the combat section" is not one of them. You also don't Organization, or Skills, for instance. The two things you gain above alter self are ability score changes and extraordinary special attacks. "Casting one spell per tentacle" is not a "gross physical quality." - Is this a talking plant? If not, you've just signed up for Silent Spell on every one of your spells or some exotic druid Feat. - Even assuming none of the above were true, and the DM were inclined to allow this, you would first have to become "familiar" with the uduroot.
Snow Savant 01-30-04, 02:58 PM	Keep in mind, Wizards can also crank out double-digit spells/effects per round at high levels. Use combinations of the following actions: Standard Spell Quicken Spell Roll around a freakin' Flaming Sphere or Dessicating Bubble on your move action. (or that 5th/6th level Huge Boulder spell in the Underdark book) A durationed [i]Prismatic Eye ray/beam (6th level spell - MoF) 3 Spells from the Spell Matrix/Sequencer family of spells in the MoF Time Stop hootenany Contingency hootenany Chain Contingency (T&B spell) hootenany Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability spell from T&B allows you to double the total amount of actions stackable of the above combinations Have your Cleric Runecaster (FRCS) friend create some contingency-triggered Runes for you to trigger upon the casting of certain conditions or spells There's more ... I just don't have my books with me at the present. XO, Snow :cloud9:
ksbsnowowl 01-30-04, 03:02 PM	Originally posted by Snow Savant There's more ... I just don't have my books with me at the present. Perhaps Eyebite? I think gaze attacks are free actions, right?
Luminosity 01-30-04, 03:02 PM	Originally posted by pawsplay Assuming your DM doesn't rule it's a special quality, I think you're still stuck with just 7. Quicken Spell says it can be used once per round. Not once per caster, or tentacle, or whatever. Might as well inform the players that Quicken spell only works 1% of the time. After all, someone else could be using it somewhere. Reasons why this won't work: - It's a special quality, whether noted as such or not. Is that what you intended when you wrote the Psihandbook? - Wildshape is based on polymorph. Polymorph specifies what abilites you gain. "Things mentioned in the combat section" is not one of them. You also don't Organization, or Skills, for instance. The two things you gain above alter self are ability score changes and extraordinary special attacks. "Casting one spell per tentacle" is not a "gross physical quality." According to the entry's lack of a classification, there is nothing that it can be besides a gross physical quality. In this case, it happens to be a pretty beneficial one. - Is this a talking plant? If not, you've just signed up for Silent Spell on every one of your spells or some exotic druid Feat. Natural Spell should cover it. - Even assuming none of the above were true, and the DM were inclined to allow this, you would first have to become "familiar" with the uduroot. Wow. Amazing observation there. Next you're gonna tell me that I'll have to remove my Adamanine Full Plate.
Penguin Master 01-30-04, 03:11 PM	Natural spell allows the druid to complete the somatic and verbal components to their spells while in wild shape. Does not grant the silent spell feat to them. You still must be able to speak clearly to cast the spell. Or automatic silent spell.
pawsplay 01-30-04, 03:13 PM	According to the entry's lack of a classification, there is nothing that it can be besides a gross physical quality. By what logic? It's not gross, since nothing about tentacles implies multiple spells per round, and it's not entirely physical, as it pertains to using psi or casting spells. So if what you meant was "There is nothing it can be besides an exotic psychic quality," you're absolutely right.
Penguin Master 01-30-04, 03:36 PM	Let's assume that each tentacle acts of its own accord that would mean it would have either six brains or other organs of the like or a hexalaterel psyche allowing it to take the six actions simultaneously. Wild Shape grants the extraordinary abilities and the appearance, not the physiology or the physiological abilities like blindsense or scent. And whatever the udoroot has that allows it to take its six actions it would definiately fall into the same category as the aforementioned abilities.
PhaedrusXY 01-30-04, 04:42 PM	You can still use it with Shapechange in 3.5, no matter what kind of ability it is. So it is still very abuseable.
Caelic 01-30-04, 05:07 PM	Any DM who allows this (and let's be honest, the DM would have to go out of their way to allow it) deserves what they get. For me, this looks like a job for "No, because that would be stupid." The fact that a rule doesn't explicitly disallow X doesn't mean that X is allowed; humans do not regenerate five hundred hit points per round, even though there's not a single place in the books where it explicitly says they don't. Is there anyone out there who will honestly raise their hand and say "I think this ability was meant to be available through Wild Shape?" Or are we saying, "Ooooh! The writers left something vaguely-worded, so let's deliberately interpret it to our advantage!" The writers aren't infallible, and neither are the editors. I remain unimpressed by builds that exploit oversights or ambiguities.
KAVU2002 01-30-04, 10:30 PM	This board is all about finding loopholes in the rules. It is a mental game for us. And one can make a fairly plausible case for this interpretation of the rules. So I don't see a problem with this discussion, Caelic. Incidentally, I think that the weakest part of your case is your interpretation of natural spell. The example for natural spell is a hawk's swaking taking the place of human speech. This critter can't verbalize at all.
PhaedrusXY 01-30-04, 10:39 PM	Originally posted by KAVU2002 This board is all about finding loopholes in the rules. It is a mental game for us. And one can make a fairly plausible case for this interpretation of the rules. So I don't see a problem with this discussion, Caelic. Incidentally, I think that the weakest part of your case is your interpretation of natural spell. The example for natural spell is a hawk's swaking taking the place of human speech. This critter can't verbalize at all. Exactly. If I was DMing a game, I would never allow this. I also wouldn't try pulling it off as a player, unless it was for a one-shot game and I just wanted to make the DM cry. But sometimes I'm evil like that. :behold: The usefulness of making things like this is to point out glaring loopholes in the rules that need to be addressed in the next Errata. This qualifies in my book. And I haven't looked at the description of it, but I don't think it is necessarily true that intelligent plants can't verbalize in general. Look at the treant and volodni.
Penguin Master 01-30-04, 10:57 PM	Everyone agrees then, that no DM would allow this that is in their right mind then, correct? If so, then logic dictates that this is beyond the question. Besides imagine how long it would take just to use 18 (in 3.0) or 12 (in 3.5) spells in one round. It would severely bog down combat and you may be assailed by your fellow players, and i'm not talking about their characters.
Luminosity 01-30-04, 11:14 PM	If a voice is required, how does anyone cast spells in any plant form besides treant? What about a lizard or snake form? They have no voices. They can make noises, such a hiss, but an ambulatory plant can also make noises, such as rustling. In fact, none of the animals are stated as having a voice in the MM, so is silent spell required for any spell in Wildshape?
Caelic 01-30-04, 11:27 PM	Given that Natural Spell simply mandates that you can complete your verbal and somatic components while in Wild Shape, I honestly don't think there's much of a rules case for denying it while in plant shape. The feat doesn't mandate that the shape needs to have a "voice," and adding such a stipulation opens up a rather large can of worms. Can someone in Dire Shark form, for example, use Natural Spell? What about someone Wild Shaped into a giraffe? Likewise, can someone shapeshifted into a snake complete the somatic components? Claiming that the Wild Shape must inherently have the ability to make noise in order to gain the benefits of Natural Spell means that large numbers of Wild Shapes become considerably less useful. If that was the intent of the rules, I think it's likely that some guidelines would've been provided. The rules as written are clear: you can complete vocal and somatic components while in Wild Shape. As no conditions are imposed on which Wild Shapes can be used, this extends to "quiet" forms, too. On the other hand, I still think the logic of "Polymorph doesn't say it DOESN'T give this ability" is weak. Polymorph spells out the categories of abilities that are gained; this can be construed as falling into those categories only by the most liberal interpretation.
Luminosity 01-31-04, 01:58 AM	The rules as written are clear: you can complete vocal and somatic components while in Wild Shape. /ponder Ya know...we may have just gotten around Silence as well... And as far as polymorph interpretation goes, I'm arguing that this is a gross physical characteristic because it is neither an SQ nor an SA and it is neither supernatural, spell-like, or extraordinary. What category is left?
Balthanon 01-31-04, 07:55 AM	A characteristic like having multiple arms, which requires experience and training to use. Also, like Caelic said, the designers and editors aren't always perfect, so it's quite possible they just left out the designation of what type of quality it is. The Psionics Handbook was one of the first of the new supplements that was produced for 3.0, which means that the standards for statistics blocks and the like weren't really quite standardized yet. Bruce Cordell has admitted in the past that he made quite a few mistakes (or things he would like to change anyway) while writing it and I believe it was actually one of his first 3.0 works. To tell the truth, I would wait a month or two and pick up the Expanded Psionics Handbook. If the Udoroot is reprinted in there, I think you'll probably see this issue addressed. (Oh, and Silence should still negate a spell cast with Natural Spell by an otherwise silent creature. The feat only says that it alters the vocal and somatic components, not that it eliminates them, so no matter what shape you're in, you're still creating sound to cast the spell. If you try and say that the feat does something different for creatures that don't make sounds that isn't specified, then it's just as easy not to apply it with a broad brush and say it just doesn't work period for those creatures.)
Luminosity 01-31-04, 08:51 AM	A characteristic like having multiple arms, which requires experience and training to use. Also, like Caelic said, the designers and editors aren't always perfect, so it's quite possible they just left out the designation of what type of quality it is. Of course it's a mistake. I never thought for a moment that WOTC wanted anyone to be able to cast 6 spells a round. This is an argument over whether it's legal, and as written, I believe it is. And a spell isn't a attack(except where invis is concerned), so comparing them to multiple arms on a rules basis is incorrect. Good eye on the silence issue. I'd have checked myself if I hadn't loaned out my PHB.
Caelic 01-31-04, 09:34 AM	Au contraire. Spells are, in fact, quite frequently attacks. As you yourself pointed out, a spell is considered an attack for purposes of Invisibility. Likewise, many spells are manifestly attacks--ranged touch or melee touch attacks, most often. Thus, we have concrete rules examples that clearly establish that a spell is, in many circumstances, an attack...most notably, that a spell is treated as an attack for purposes of determining the effects of another spell. Are there any concrete examples that clearly establish that a spell is NOT an attack? It's a different type of attack than a normal melee or ranged attack, surely, but I don't believe there's any clear rules justification for saying "A spell is definitely not an attack."
Balthanon 01-31-04, 09:36 AM	Actually, spells are considered attacks in a broad sense, I believe. Look at any creature with natural spellcasting ability; the Spells special ability is, more often than not (I'm not sure about always, so I won't say that), listed under special attacks. That would seem to indicate they're considered attacks, and even ignoring that, it's not the fact that they're attacks that I'm referring to, but that it would require experience/training beyond the norm. Attacking is just the most obvious action that having more than one pair of arms allows. Since even creatures that grow up with them need to take special feats to utilize them in other ways (Multitasking), it isn't necessary to mention in the spell description that you can't utilize extra arms from alter self to quaff a potion with one hand while attacking with another, for instance. If you can't use multiple arms to perform more than one action at a time, there's no reason to think that having multiple stalks or whatever the udoroot is considered to have would grant you the ability to do more than one thing at a time just by having them. For the udoroot, these are the mental equivalent to having multiple arms, as they have _no_ other means of attacking aside from their spell-like abilities/attack modes. (We might also be reading more into the ability than it can do as well. The udoroot is a mindless creature, so spellcasting or even traditional psionics aren't truly a possibility for it unless it's awakened. The combat description explicitly says that it can attack 'psionically' 6 times each round--that doesn't necessarily equate to being able to cast a spell 6 times a round. It doesn't state that it can take any other type of action, just attack psionically.) At any rate, this has pretty much been a DM call from the beginning I think, since it's a fairly gray area in terms of the spell and monster descriptions involved. Like I said before, I would suggest concluding the discussion after the Expanded Psionics Handbook is out. Until then I think the two sides of this argument will just have to agree to disagree, as the arguments presented thus far haven't seemed to sway either side.
Luminosity 01-31-04, 01:34 PM	As you yourself pointed out, a spell is considered an attack for purposes of Invisibility. Likewise, many spells are manifestly attacks--ranged touch or melee touch attacks, most often. And according to the same spell, several spells are not attacks, such as buffs, summons, etc. You knew that when you posted that, and chose to omit it. I wonder why. but that it would require experience/training beyond the norm. In which page of which book is that fact detailed? It could just as easily be translated as having separate,split conciousnesses that come into being as you cast the spell/use the ability. It may be the most instinctive thing on the planet. After all, a plant's the one doing it.