Post/Author/DateTime	Post
raidzuo 07-09-05, 06:46 AM	Bonzai Hightower, the level 1 Half-Orc Cleric STR 23: (+2 racial, +1 Feat of Strength, +2 Enlarge Person) Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Chr: Doesn't matter Domain: Strength (Feat of Strength) Spell: Enlarge Person. Skill: Jump, +15 (4 ranks, +7 Str, +4 Run) Feat: Run Equipment: Studded Leather + Armor Spikes (30.0 lb). Shield, Heavy Steel + Shield spikes (20.0 lb). Gauntlet, Spiked + Locked (6.0 lb). Gauntlet, Spiked + Locked (6.0 lb). Mace, Heavy (8.0 lb). Mace, Heavy (8.0 lb) Backpack (2.0 lb). Trail ration x10 (100.00 lb) Weight: 4000.00 (320.00 lbs, + 180.00 lbs of gear, + x8 from Enlarge). Cast enlarge + feat of strength and fall on opponent from at least 10 feet (all in the same round). Deal 20D6 (200.00 lb = +1D6 fall damage). So 4000.00 divided by 200 = 20D6 (Soft cap is 20D6 for falling object). Good chance to negate damage you suffer by making a Jump check DC 10 (roll 5 or above). What do you think? Just imagine a first level party of 4+ characters built this way. They could kill just about anything that was their CR in one round!
Sir Todd 07-09-05, 09:08 AM	I don't think this works. You have to fall at least 10 feet to gain the bonus damage. A 10 foot running high jump has a DC 40. (Remember your not adding in reach onto your height because your whole body must be 10 feet higher than your target, not just your fingers.) If the DM is being harsh he might even require you to be 10 feet higher than your opponents height. In which case the DC soars even higher. So basically this tactic fails at low level as it's not possible to hit a DC40 (or higher) jump check at 1st level. Also it may not be usable at all in many indoor areas.
Previn 07-09-05, 11:34 AM	So basically this tactic fails at low level as it's not possible to hit a DC40 (or higher) jump check at 1st level. Also it may not be usable at all in many indoor areas. That sounds like a challange! Jump = Strength So longtooth shifter barbadian with an 18 base str. Feats: Skill Focus: Jump, Acrobatic, Run Flaws: Frail, Murky-Eyed Shift, rage, runing jump: 4 base skill at 1st +2 racial to jump checks +7 from str +3 from skill focus: Jump +2 from Acrobatic +4 for a running start with the run feat. Total of +22. So at 1st level you'd need an 18 or better, but yes! You can make a DC 40 check!
SigmaJargon 07-09-05, 11:56 AM	Or how about a raptoran wizard? Same feat/flaw setup as Previn. Str: 18 base + 2 enlarge person Jump 2 Ranks (cross class) +5 Strength bonus +10 Racial bonus +3 Skill focus: Jump +2 Acrobatic +4 Running start (Run feat) +10 Jump spell ----- +36 Success on a 4+ :) EDIT: Almost forgot enlarge person.
EvilVegan 07-09-05, 06:12 PM	Make sure you play a really fat guy. Named E. Honda.
Wrathamon 07-09-05, 06:27 PM	but would you live?
tseb 07-09-05, 06:42 PM	but would you live? Sure. YOU only fell 10 feet. You'll take 1d6 falling damage IF you fail a DC 15 jump check. These crazy maxed out jump builds won't care at all about making that check. Even if you do fail somehow, presuming you've got your full hp, at level 1 you should have at least 9 hp as a cleric, and at least 5 hp as a wizard. Only a wizard has to worry about it. And a wizard has access to an easy fix--a toad familiar.
Nazzareth 07-09-05, 10:36 PM	You could have another player trip the targeted foe to drop the DC of the jump check, before the big splash of doom. Don't forget to give the character's face paint, then have them point at the enemy and threaten them in a deep voice before attacking. Tights would be nice too.
A Man In Black 07-09-05, 11:11 PM	Isn't this a variation on the Hulking Hurler world-destroyer build, only using yourself as a projectile?
obrysii 07-09-05, 11:16 PM	Or how about a raptoran wizard? Same feat/flaw setup as Previn. Str: 18 base + 2 enlarge person Jump 2 Ranks (cross class) +5 Strength bonus +10 Racial bonus +3 Skill focus: Jump +2 Acrobatic +4 Running start (Run feat) +10 Jump spell ----- +36 Success on a 4+ :) EDIT: Almost forgot enlarge person. Change that to Thri'kreen as a base-race: Thri'kreen Barbarian Str: 18 base + 2 racial + 4 rage Jump 4 Ranks (class skill, not assuming racial skills/skillpoints) +7 strength bonus +30 racial bonus +3 skill bonus (skill focus) +2 Acrobatic +4 Running start (Run feat) +8 from increased speed +10 Jump spell (cast from a friendly wizard) ----- +68 on jump checks ECL 4, though (using the non-psionic thri'kreen).
Nazzareth 07-09-05, 11:39 PM	There is also the mighty leaping feat in SS that gives a +10 comp bonus to jump checks. It has heavy prerequsites, jump 9, str 21, dodge, mobility so is out of reach for low level characters. You might be also be able to do a to hit roll in order to do damage with your armour spikes, there are several feats out there that allow you extra damage when you jump and attack foes with a weapon. Now use your armourspikes as the weapon of choice for these feats and you should be able to combine the damage form your armourspikes and falling weight. The battle jump feat gives x2 damage for this attack, while the raptor school feat would give you +4 damage. You might even be able to use the shield charge and/or shield slam feats with a jumping charge attack. The Prone fighting feat and a pounce like feat or ability would be handy to, five levels in the singh rager, snowtiger berserker, lion tribe warrior feat.
raidzuo 07-10-05, 11:49 AM	I don't think this works. You have to fall at least 10 feet to gain the bonus damage. A 10 foot running high jump has a DC 40. (Remember your not adding in reach onto your height because your whole body must be 10 feet higher than your target, not just your fingers.) If the DM is being harsh he might even require you to be 10 feet higher than your opponents height. In which case the DC soars even higher. So basically this tactic fails at low level as it's not possible to hit a DC40 (or higher) jump check at 1st level. Also it may not be usable at all in many indoor areas. Well I didn't say you'd need to jump on them, just fall from them from pretty high (though jumping would be way better)! I only got jump ranks so you wouldn't take any damage when you fell.
Elderich 07-11-05, 10:54 PM	get yourself a pole, and pole vault.
ck2001wendt 07-12-05, 02:04 AM	Better make sure you have some good AC too, or a really good initiative, because anything you jump on will get an AoO. Creatures threaten three dimensionally.
Cormulan 07-12-05, 03:42 AM	Better make sure you have some good AC too, or a really good initiative, because anything you jump on will get an AoO. Creatures threaten three dimensionally. I think that a reasonable DM would apply rule zero and at least allow a reflex save for the target to avoid being hit by a falling creature as well.
Pinky's brain 07-12-05, 05:55 AM	I wonder why 3.5 still has these outrageous falling object rules when D20 modern has sane ones. With the existing rules polymorph becomes the single most damaging spell of all, and that just aint right.
Sir Todd 07-12-05, 08:07 AM	I guess I stand corrected... Clearly a properly optimized character can make DC40+ Jump checks.
obrysii 07-12-05, 11:42 AM	I wonder why 3.5 still has these outrageous falling object rules when D20 modern has sane ones. With the existing rules polymorph becomes the single most damaging spell of all, and that just aint right. Yeah. Using the Draconomicon weights, a Great Gold Wyrm's ultimate attack strategy would be: fly up really high and then fall out of the sky onto its' foe. It deals 1,000,000Ibs/250 = 4000d6 damage (an average of 14,000 damage) to anything it hits, whilst it takes only 20d6 damage...which is hardly felt when it has over 800hp.
Rigeld 07-12-05, 12:15 PM	Bonzai Hightower, the level 1 Half-Orc Cleric Weight: 4000.00 (320.00 lbs, + 180.00 lbs of gear, + x8 from Enlarge). 320+180*8=3200... divided by 20=16d6.. and since youre only targeting my square, (similar to Flaming Sphere) reflex would negate. /shrug very limited in times per day also. Not too bad of an idea tho.
Wrathamon 07-12-05, 05:40 PM	what would the DC be to avoid?
Cornelius 07-12-05, 06:22 PM	320+180*8=3200... divided by 20=16d6 (320+180)*8 = 500*8 = 4000, not 3200, so the 20d6 part is right. Not sure exactly how effective this would be....probably a reflex save would be in order. But it sure is funny to picture it :D
FallFromGrace 07-12-05, 06:35 PM	Yeah. Using the Draconomicon weights, a Great Gold Wyrm's ultimate attack strategy would be: fly up really high and then fall out of the sky onto its' foe. It deals 1,000,000Ibs/250 = 4000d6 damage (an average of 14,000 damage) to anything it hits, whilst it takes only 20d6 damage...which is hardly felt when it has over 800hp. Falling object damage is capped at 20d6. I think that a reasonable DM would apply rule zero and at least allow a reflex save for the target to avoid being hit by a falling creature as well. I don't see why. Reflex saves are almost always awarded so that the creature/character in question can "wriggle" in place in order to protect him/her/itself, not as a means to leap into safety. Better make sure you have some good AC too, or a really good initiative, because anything you jump on will get an AoO. Creatures threaten three dimensionally. Applying AoOs to freefalls sounds tough. Would you award AoOs from players versus arrows speeding towards them, for example? SBS :) PS: On the other hand I'm having a great deal of fun by summoning earth elementals into the ceilings of stone caverns and having them drop on the enemies, so I may be biased. :D
Pinky's brain 07-12-05, 06:42 PM	Falling object damage is capped at 20d6.No ... that is only for damage added by falling height, the damage added by weight is uncapped.
FallFromGrace 07-12-05, 07:30 PM	No ... that is only for damage added by falling height, the damage added by weight is uncapped. So you're interpreting the parenthetical statement "to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage" to refer to damage due to height only? According to that paragraph, the damage due to height is "additional" to the damage due to weight, so the maximum must refer to the sum; otherwise it would have said "to a maximum of 20d6 additional point of damage". I admit that the syntax is iffy, though. SBS :)
Pinky's brain 07-12-05, 08:02 PM	IMO it should say "to a total of 20d6 damage" to mean that. Additional damage is still damage, so there is no reason to repeat additional ... I would say it would refer to the adjective noun pair, rather than to only the noun with total being implicit.
glutton 07-12-05, 08:07 PM	Complete warrior has the rules for weight as additional damage i believe, as it is the book hulking hurler comes from
Rigeld 07-12-05, 09:48 PM	I don't see why. Reflex saves are almost always awarded so that the creature/character in question can "wriggle" in place in order to protect him/her/itself, not as a means to leap into safety. See also, Flaming Sphere. You dont move from your square, but a reflex save negates. And about the 320+180... I was forgetting to carry the 1 :eek:
Eidolon Faer 07-12-05, 11:15 PM	Bah. I can defeat that Gold Dragon with my level 6 character. Fighter 1 / Wizard 5. Just buy a +1 Ghost Touch spear, cast Gaseous Form, and brace for charge.
Carnifexx 07-13-05, 05:43 AM	Hmm... I know this is D&D and all but according to physics the falling object (or creature in this case) should get as much damage as the poor thing hit by it. So a large creature should recieve more damage from falling then a small one.
FallFromGrace 07-13-05, 07:30 AM	IMO it should say "to a total of 20d6 damage" to mean that. Additional damage is still damage, so there is no reason to repeat additional ... I would say it would refer to the adjective noun pair, rather than to only the noun with total being implicit. I don't think so. Look at the language used in the Shield of Faith spell, for example. There is a first clause (+2 bonus) and a second clause (additional +1 bonus per six levels), and the parenthetical statement in the end (maximum +5 bonus) sets the cap for the total, not for the second clause. See also, Flaming Sphere. You dont move from your square, but a reflex save negates. I can't see what Flaming Sphere has to do with falling objects. The sphere in question is directed by concentration, rolling and bouncing around; specifically, it moves at a speed of 30 feet per round. An object in free fall has a speed of 500 feet per round (according to the main FAQ). If you want to scale the save DC proportionately to the Flaming Sphere DC, be my guest. :p Hmm... I know this is D&D and all but according to physics the falling object (or creature in this case) should get as much damage as the poor thing hit by it. So a large creature should recieve more damage from falling then a small one. According to that logic there would have to be no need for different rules for Falling vs Falling Objects. But there are. The logic (?!) behind the D&D rules for falling is that an object cannot be crushed under its own weight. SBS :)
Rigeld 07-13-05, 07:46 AM	I can't see what Flaming Sphere has to do with falling objects. The sphere in question is directed by concentration, rolling and bouncing around; specifically, it moves at a speed of 30 feet per round. An object in free fall has a speed of 500 feet per round (according to the main FAQ). If you want to scale the save DC proportionately to the Flaming Sphere DC, be my guest. :p You said Reflex saves are almost always awarded so that the creature/character in question can "wriggle" in place in order to protect him/her/itself, not as a means to leap into safety. I gave an example where a reflex save meant the char took no damage, but stayed in place. Anything moving that fast is going to make the classic incoming noise you hear in movies, so its not like they'll have no warning.
Pinky's brain 07-13-05, 09:15 AM	I don't think so. Look at the language used in the Shield of Faith spell, for example. There is a first clause (+2 bonus) and a second clause (additional +1 bonus per six levels), and the parenthetical statement in the end (maximum +5 bonus) sets the cap for the total, not for the second clause.The difference being that everything is in one sentence and it doesnt use "to a" (which would make it a continuation of the sentence, rather than just a comment).
OrangeArmlessMonkey 07-13-05, 02:45 PM	What's the attack roll invovled? The original Half-Orc cleric would have a +7 to hit from strength. ACs range from 16-18 giving him a fair chance to hit. But, wouldn't there be a penalty of some sort involved given the inaccuracy of throwing yourself at someone?
Belldandy 07-13-05, 04:42 PM	and this might have been 3.0? but when I was playing a huge iron bear, (weighing something like 32 mega tons) we looked into the rules of falling objects and the like. Seemed I could do something like 16,000D6 damage... but it said specifically this is applied to both objects. And my DR didn't help with that. As it was if I ever jumped more than 10ft I would implode. horribly... just wondering if anyone else has seen this rule?! (I only have access to the SRD which does seem to be missing some things?!) ...and the reflex save would be reduced as (most) of the people are enlarged and so covering a few more spaces!
haferka 07-13-05, 05:22 PM	Dragon Crush attacks: This special attack allows a flying or jumping dragon of at least Huge size to land on opponents as a standard action, using its whole body to crush them. Crush attacks are effective only against opponents three or more size categories smaller than the dragon (though it can attempt normal overrun or grapple attacks against larger opponents). A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under the dragon’s body. Creatures in the affected area must succeed on a Reflex save (DC equal to that of the dragon’s breath weapon) or be pinned, automatically taking bludgeoning damage during the next round unless the dragon moves off them. If the dragon chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack. Pinned opponents take damage from the crush each round if they don’t escape. A crush attack deals the indicated damage plus 1½ times the dragon’s Strength bonus (round down). Huge: 2d8 Guargantuan: 4d6 Collosal: 4d8 This damage seem rather tiny compared to the damage they would deal if they just belly floped. Draconomicon lists a Huge Black Dragon as 20,000 lb. thats 200d6 from a 10' drop
OrangeArmlessMonkey 07-13-05, 05:25 PM	A mechanic for this type of attack already exists in D&D. Quote below from the SRD entry for Dragons. Crush (Ex) This special attack allows a flying or jumping dragon of at least Huge size to land on opponents as a standard action, using its whole body to crush them. Crush attacks are effective only against opponents three or more size categories smaller than the dragon (though it can attempt normal overrun or grapple attacks against larger opponents). A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under the dragon’s body. Creatures in the affected area must succeed on a Reflex save (DC equal to that of the dragon’s breath weapon) or be pinned, automatically taking bludgeoning damage during the next round unless the dragon moves off them. If the dragon chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack. Pinned opponents take damage from the crush each round if they don’t escape. A crush attack deals the indicated damage plus 1½ times the dragon’s Strength bonus (round down). I believe that a PC attempting this would be subject to the same rules.
Solitare 07-13-05, 05:32 PM	That sounds like a challange! Jump = Strength So longtooth shifter barbadian with an 18 base str. Feats: Skill Focus: Jump, Acrobatic, Run Flaws: Frail, Murky-Eyed Shift, rage, runing jump: 4 base skill at 1st +2 racial to jump checks +7 from str +3 from skill focus: Jump +2 from Acrobatic +4 for a running start with the run feat. Total of +22. So at 1st level you'd need an 18 or better, but yes! You can make a DC 40 check! God I love this board.
haferka 07-13-05, 05:34 PM	I believe the Dragon "Crush" attack is swooping down and basicly sitting on you.. not falling, not even charging. Its there method of easily subdueing opponents.
haferka 07-13-05, 05:45 PM	Here is a mechanic that works... Belly flop maneuver: ranged touch attack AC5 to target square(s) where you want to land, failure is treated as a grenade like missile. this could potentially push you beyond your movement limit for the round.. which means everyone gets the remainder of this round to get the hell out of the way. You do suffere AO for this movement, and you are prone at the end of the movement. This maneuver is also considered a charge attack with all the relevent modifiers. You make an attack roll against each and Every person in these squares. Success = deal damage based on your weight. Armor spikes would also increase this damage. weapons could potentially be used, as secondary weapons, since the belly flop is your primary attack. ...basis for the ruling above: 1) fling ally/enemy (races of stone) .. its AC 5 touch attack to target a location to land, they person thrown does not get AO for this movement. I am inclined to allow AO in the belly flop, since it is your movement, not someone else moving you. 2) falling brick traps are melle attack rolls which deal damage based on the objects weight. (DMG)
obrysii 07-13-05, 06:44 PM	I believe the Dragon "Crush" attack is swooping down and basicly sitting on you.. not falling, not even charging. Its there method of easily subdueing opponents. Basically, it's a slower and more controlled "fall" since it deals no damage to the dragon. The falling-dragon technique does damage the dragon, so if it's of a breed that doesn't acquire the ability to heal (or doesn't, for some reason, pick healing spells), then it'll be hurting, too.
Wrathamon 07-13-05, 07:47 PM	I would love to have a long spear ready when your fat dude tries to fall on me.
haferka 07-13-05, 08:47 PM	That "Fat dude" will be wearing Heavy Plate, carrying a tower shield and taking cover when he come down on you. :)
SwollenOstrich 07-13-05, 09:41 PM	edit:repost
Mist of Shadows 07-14-05, 01:27 AM	Well being a ghost, or a ghost from ghost walk you could use a ghost touched heavy shield to smash into people for a nice amount of damage no messy jump ranks or real worries about damage, you just ghost through it. And while the damage from massively heavy objects doesn't help you could lead weight the shield and then drop it. Still an impressive amount of damage and more useable. It's useable every other round or so. (takes a bit to get up that far.) Okay sadly it's not first level cause for ghost walk you need at least 1 level of a real class before being a ghost. But hey it's a start. Combine it with silence and invisibility at later levels and a returning shield :) and you have at least a 20d6 attack that they don't see or hear coming. Before they get hit with 20 d6 of damage. The returning part comes in if the dm lets you use that to call it back to you later after you drop it. (You are going through it. Okay it's late but it's an interesting idea I might have to use.
raidzuo 07-14-05, 10:51 AM	Someone said the object falling would take the same damage -- but a moving object has more mass, and therefore wouldn't take more damage. And just to put this character's damage dealing ability into perspective, just imagine dropping a pickup truck onto something from 10 feet, because that's how much this guy weighs.
Carnifexx 07-14-05, 05:19 PM	Someone said the object falling would take the same damage -- but a moving object has more mass, and therefore wouldn't take more damage. And just to put this character's damage dealing ability into perspective, just imagine dropping a pickup truck onto something from 10 feet, because that's how much this guy weighs. Try dropping a small toy car from 10 feet and see how much damage it takes... next drop a normal car from the same height... the normal car will take much more damage (at least if you consider the "HP" and "hardness" of the large car. Sure it has more mass but in D&D thats included in the HP of the object (or creature)). The same thing happens when a creature falls... this is not included in the much simplified D&D rules but if any PC's in my game starts to shapechange into gargantuan iron colossuses they will feel their own weight... believe me :)
haferka 07-14-05, 05:36 PM	If you droped a "toy" car with the same relative materials/thickness... as the full size car.. it would be totalled.. now imagine a toy car blown up to life size proportions.. drop it 10'.... no damage.. at least to the car.
Carnifexx 07-14-05, 05:44 PM	Heavy creatures falling on other creatures will NOT will cause more damage than light ones. The rules for "falling objects" are only for... you guessed it... objects. There are no rules for the damage creatures cause when falling on other creatures.
Carnifexx 07-14-05, 05:47 PM	If you droped a "toy" car with the same relative materials/thickness... as the full size car.. it would be totalled.. now imagine a toy car blown up to life size proportions.. drop it 10'.... no damage.. at least to the car. Wrong. A toy car blown up to life sized proportions would be the same as a real car. And it would take some damage.. because it has greater WEIGHT. Did you miss your physics class? :)
Lokiyn 07-14-05, 06:08 PM	Wrong. A car blown up to life sized proportions would be the same as a real car. And it would take some damage.. because it has greater WEIGHT. Did you miss your physics class? :) but realize that the toy car blown up would basically be a large block of metal with wheels glued on to the side. Structual composition playes a huge role in damage taken by collision or falling. Did you miss your engineering class? ;) :P But here is my question isn't your jump height limited by your physical height?
Carnifexx 07-14-05, 06:16 PM	but realize that the toy car blown up would basically be a large block of metal with wheels glued on to the side. Structual composition playes a huge role in damage taken by collision or falling. Of course, but I assumed that the toy car and the life size car had the exact same material - for the example. And a small sized "real" car would take much less damage than a large one. BUT even a sturdy toy car blown up would be damaged by a 10 feet fall. Another good example of this would be a stone. Dropping a fist sized stone 10 feet against a hard surface would not damage it much. But a stone with a weight of 10000 pounds would most probably break apart. Why? Because the same amount of energy an object "inflicts" to the ground the same amount of energy is "inflicted" to the object. (Not sure about how to explain it - English is not my first language)
Carnifexx 07-14-05, 06:39 PM	But here is my question isn't your jump height limited by your physical height? No that's the 3.0 rules for jumping. But larger creatures can reach higher when they, for example, jump up to grab a ledge.
obrysii 07-14-05, 09:10 PM	Heavy creatures falling on other creatures will NOT will cause more damage than light ones. The rules for "falling objects" are only for... you guessed it... objects. There are no rules for the damage creatures cause when falling on other creatures. So a dragon weighing 1,000,000 pounds is different than a rock weighing 1,000,000 pounds? Why's that? Also note: a corpse is an object, and therefore a free-falling dragon (or the "fat dude" as mentioned above) could be concievably considered an "object" for purposes of falling damage...except that objects have hardness, whereas the living (or Unliving) body (usually) does not.
Mist of Shadows 07-14-05, 09:37 PM	I think the best idea is to just rule that the character doing the falling takes falling damage the same as the object he is hitting. For example if he makes his jump check to roll with it, an evil dm could always say that doing so reduces the damage to the target as well. My main issue with this build is that you would still have to hit the target. It's one of those by the rules it might work but more then likely getting all of those things to work for you and having everything work out is hard. Enlarge person isn't that great anymore btw. It isn't going to give you that much weight for just increasing you a size cat. At the very least most likely you are going to have some encumbrance issues to deal with.
haferka 07-15-05, 12:16 AM	http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsDtoE.html#enlarge-person multiplies Weight by 8 * normal, .. it likewise increases the items worn/carried.. equipment instantly returns to normal size after leaving the persons possession. To the guy who says the creature is not an "object", ok. lets just add up the weight from his equipment.. armor, shield, weapon(s) the full backpack & bags full of rocks... his equipement weight (objects) would still deal huge amounts of damage. Individually, they deal much less, if any.. but when they are bound to a creature, they would inflict damage as a single object. To the guy who has never watched a crash test... Cars are made to break(they build "crumple zones & such" just for this purpose) toys are not(they are built for durability). Here is a funny varient... Druid.. Summon Natures Ally X (summon a bunch of flying creatures... I dont care.. Then cast Animal Shapes.. They are now Elephants. It raining Elephants on the combat field. :) Animate Object on a Huge boulder high above the combat... (very situational).. Before entering a Dragons Cave, cast Elemental Swarm. Use the smallest as trap stringers and let the others remain hidden within the cealing of the cave. Then when the dragon attacks.. they drop out of the cealing like comandos... (have you looked at how much these bastards weigh?) Greater = 54,000 lb -> 270d6 ....
obrysii 07-15-05, 12:31 AM	My favorite strategy is to buy a Soar Whale and equip it with a gigantic rock...all you have to do is have the ropes set up in the right way that a single cut will drop it (kinda dangerous in noncombat situations, but great in a siege) and drop it. If the Soar Whale has the Natural Heavyweight feat, the rock can weigh up to 268,800 pounds, dealing 1,075d6 damage (average of 3,762 damage) . Or if it lacks the Natural Heavyweight feat, the rock can weigh 134,400 pounds, dealing 537d6 damage (average of 1,879 damage).
Carnifexx 07-15-05, 06:37 AM	So a dragon weighing 1,000,000 pounds is different than a rock weighing 1,000,000 pounds? Why's that? I'd rather get hit by 100 pounds of human than a 100 pounds rock. Huge difference. Also note: a corpse is an object, and therefore a free-falling dragon (or the "fat dude" as mentioned above) could be concievably considered an "object" for purposes of falling damage...except that objects have hardness, whereas the living (or Unliving) body (usually) does not. No we cannot assume that a living creature should be considered corpses... this is your own rule and not from the D&D rules. Also a soft object (such as a corpse) should do much less damage than a hard one. I suspect the "falling object" rule is meant for hard objects such as rocks and portcullises (sp?). (Why should a corpse be an object? - can't find it in the rules)
Grath 07-15-05, 07:07 AM	So, full plate armor isn't hard? I don't quite follow your logic there.
blooddemon 07-15-05, 10:45 AM	What's the attack roll invovled? The original Half-Orc cleric would have a +7 to hit from strength. ACs range from 16-18 giving him a fair chance to hit. But, wouldn't there be a penalty of some sort involved given the inaccuracy of throwing yourself at someone? would you get the -4 non-proficiency penalty? The RAW makes me laugh.
obrysii 07-15-05, 11:05 AM	No we cannot assume that a living creature should be considered corpses... this is your own rule and not from the D&D rules. Also a soft object (such as a corpse) should do much less damage than a hard one. I suspect the "falling object" rule is meant for hard objects such as rocks and portcullises (sp?). Again, I must point out: a dragon's skeletal structure is harder than stone. A dragon can also make all of its weight focus on one part of it's body (it's arm, for example) when falling thereby getting that kind of damage. And, RAW, anything can deal falling damage assuming it has a weight. (Why should a corpse be an object? - can't find it in the rules) Check the PHB under the ability scores section. Something that lacks Int, Wis, and Cha is considered an object. A corpse lacks Int, Wis, and Cha (due to the fact that they are, you know, DEAD), and thus are objects.
LefferDP 07-15-05, 09:59 PM	There's a feat called Crush in the Savage Species. It works the same as the Dragon's ability, in terms of size for damage and is for EVERYONE, well that meets the prereq. (I guess this is technically not under the SRD, but I'll post what I think is relevant) Like a dragon, you can hurl your body onto opponents to deal tremendous damage. Prereq: Huge size. Benefit: As a standard action, you can jump or fall onto opponents, using your whole body to crush them. This attack is useful only against creatures at least three size categories smaller than yourself. ... Each creature in the area must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 10 + your Str mod + your size modifier for grapple attacks). Therefore a colossal creature can at best deal 4d8 damage from the described attack, and you don't have to fly, just jump on them. You need this feat to do it and have to be size Huge. Enlarge dosen't help you unless you're a large sized humanoid to begin with, and then you only deal 2d8, with the feat, although maybe the feat just negates the AoO? I could see that.
Mist of Shadows 07-16-05, 12:09 AM	Would like to remind people not that it matters to some of you :) but even a large person jumping isn't hitting a target with all of their body. And the larger the jumper is the less you are hitting them with. So that is probably one reason they wanted to limit things to 4d8 or less for sanity's sake. And the point about having to be large already for enlarge to make you huge is a good one. And enlarges don't stack.
Carnifexx 07-18-05, 05:13 PM	Therefore a colossal creature can at best deal 4d8 damage from the described attack, and you don't have to fly, just jump on them. You need this feat to do it and have to be size Huge. No surprise really :) That would end this discussion... And, RAW, anything can deal falling damage assuming it has a weight. No - only objects deal damage as per the rules for damage for falling damage. If the rules says otherwise please quote the RAW. Check the PHB under the ability scores section. Something that lacks Int, Wis, and Cha is considered an object. A corpse lacks Int, Wis, and Cha (due to the fact that they are, you know, DEAD), and thus are objects. Thx.. I just had no time to check it up?
g23armani 10-07-05, 06:42 PM	There's a feat called Crush in the Savage Species. It works the same as the Dragon's ability, in terms of size for damage and is for EVERYONE, well that meets the prereq. Agreed with this interpretation, it appears WotC have already come up with a game mechanic to explain "falling on someone." If you are going to be logical about falling damage, you need to settle a few things as well. First of all, force is mass x acceleration. In this case the amount of force applied to the struck object is dependent on how quickly the falling object stops. If you use the jump skill to negate damage, all that you are doing is slowing down your deceleration, or "rolling with" a fall. This in turn would lessen the amount of damage taken by the hit object. Pressure (force per unit area) is also something to take into consideration. If a huge, pliable object (like a person) hits the ground, the damage is not pinpointed to one point, it is divided among all points that come into contact with anything stationary. In most cases the ground would be absorbing a significant amount of the impact. One other thing that is funny: a 4,000 pound, enlarged half orc with a strength of 22 can only lift 2080 pounds off the ground...it sure would be hard for him to jump very far. If a 180 pound man could only squat 90 pounds I can assure you his vertical leap would not be very high. G23armani
Kendrick 10-07-05, 07:15 PM	Again, I must point out: a dragon's skeletal structure is harder than stone. A dragon can also make all of its weight focus on one part of it's body (it's arm, for example) when falling thereby getting that kind of damage. And, RAW, anything can deal falling damage assuming it has a weight. Check the PHB under the ability scores section. Something that lacks Int, Wis, and Cha is considered an object. A corpse lacks Int, Wis, and Cha (due to the fact that they are, you know, DEAD), and thus are objects. A corpse would indeed be an object. However, that's irrelevant to the question. In the same way that a corpse would be defined as an object in D&D terms, a living creature by definition is not an object. Hence the rules for falling object damage are irrelevant. There are no rules for falling half-orc damage. That places this entire exercise outside of the RAW, and makes it a poor min/max attempt. The point of min/maxing is to do as much as you can within the RAW (or a particular set of houserules if it's a specific request for a specific campaign), not to see what you can do if you make small but significant changes to the rules. How 'bout this: I'm going to insert two characters into one spell, and I can come up with an even greater result: I'll just change the 1d4 in Magic Missile to 100d4. Wow, look at that - suddenly my level 1 wizard can do 400 damage maximum at level one with a single spell. Except it's pointless because I changed the rules text to make it happen. And this claim is just as pointless. There are no rules in the RAW for damage from falling characters. This doesn't mean you can make up whatever rules you feel like as long as you can find a similar rule to justify it, it means that you can't use a falling character as a weapon.
tsuyoshikentsu 10-07-05, 11:20 PM	On the Reflex save subject: Explain Fireball.
Belldandy 10-08-05, 07:16 AM	On the Reflex save subject: Explain Fireball. Slow bloomer. or boomer.
K 10-08-05, 02:42 PM	Crush is not a good rule for this, as it implies that the person using Crush is not being damagef by the attack. Heroes of Battle does have extended rules for dropping objects on creatures. Basically, its an AC 5 target to hit the square(with range increments) and the subject gets a Reflex 15 save.
g23armani 10-08-05, 03:31 PM	Crush is not a good rule for this, as it implies that the person using Crush is not being damagef by the attack. Remember that the original build suggested a 10' jump, which required only a small jump skill check to negate the falling damage.
K 10-08-05, 08:52 PM	Remember that the original build suggested a 10' jump, which required only a small jump skill check to negate the falling damage. Falling damage? I'm talking about the "hitting someone with your body hard enough to hurt them" damage.
SoulGamit 10-08-05, 09:45 PM	You guys do realize that there is FAR more that would go into determining "damage" an object recieved then just it's weight and mass. It would also have to include the construction of the object, how the weight was dispersed, amoung many, many other things. On a side note, no, a rock that weighs 1,000 dropped from 10' up wouldn't necissarily break apart, since to reach that weight the object would either have to increase in size (and thus strength) or increase in density (and thus strength). The car example is also a very poor one, as a falling car succumbs to many flaws in the car's structural design, and an object is only as strong as it's weakest point. The rules in D&D don't make sense and are simple because WotC didn't want their buyers to have to take a physics or engineering course to play the game. On a side note, while there is no mechanic for a falling "creature" per say, that full plate he's wearing is and object. His shield is an object. That grain of sand that is stuck between the plates of his armor is an object (I think you guys know where I'm going with this). Personally, I'd make this a touch attack, by the way. (This post was in no way intended to insult the poor car designers in any way. A car is not designed to fall from the air, and if it was I'm sure you guys would make a banged up job of it)
thegreatbuddha 10-08-05, 10:01 PM	I disagree that a car dropped from 10ft will "be destroyed." I hit a guard rail in a Grand Am (head on collision at ~100mph) and flipped into the air, by witness accounts travelling 30-40 feet into the air as well as roughly 200ft horizontally before landing directly on the roof of my car. not only did I walk out of the wreck without a scratch, but my engine was still running. I'd hardly call that totally destroyed. Also, 120 max damage is easier to achieve at 1st level. Half-orc barbarian1 str26 with enlarge person & rage feats: Monkey Grip, scythe damage is 2d8+12. max damage on a critical hit is 28*4=112 with a flaw to get Power Attack, that increases to 120
oxybe 10-09-05, 10:48 AM	bah. yeah, thats possible, but not as fun as the "banzai drop of doom" the heroes of battle "drop stuff on people rules" only applies to objects dropped when flying, since that entry has attack modifiers for flight maneuvrability.
raidzuo 10-31-05, 12:14 AM	I disagree that a car dropped from 10ft will "be destroyed." I hit a guard rail in a Grand Am (head on collision at ~100mph) and flipped into the air, by witness accounts travelling 30-40 feet into the air as well as roughly 200ft horizontally before landing directly on the roof of my car. not only did I walk out of the wreck without a scratch, but my engine was still running. I'd hardly call that totally destroyed. Also, 120 max damage is easier to achieve at 1st level. Half-orc barbarian1 str26 with enlarge person & rage feats: Monkey Grip, scythe damage is 2d8+12. max damage on a critical hit is 28*4=112 with a flaw to get Power Attack, that increases to 120 Monkey grip feat isn't in the player's handbook! That's the whole point (use player's handbook rules only).