12th lvl wildshaped front line tank - 3.5 [Archive] - Wizards Community

12th lvl wildshaped front line tank - 3.5 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
toomre
03-30-04, 12:21 AM Hey folks. I'd like some opinions on how to make the best 12th level druid with a focus on being a wildshaped front line tank.

We're only allowed 3.5 PHB, 3.5 DMG, 3.5 MM, and CW, so the many well known druid handbooks and threads in this forum don't help me much.

I've rolled: 17/16/16/15/14/11 (nice eh? almost a waste on a shapeshifter, I know)
I'm allowed 88K gp of equipment no single item can be over 22K.

All race, class, feat, equipment, spell, and wildshape suggestions will be appreciated, but take note of my book restrictions.
Sisyfos
03-30-04, 02:48 AM You could go this way:
Druid8/nature's_warrior4

NW:
- DR3/-
- Natural armor +4
(If you like, you could switch either one for fast healing.)

Take heavy armor proficiency as a feat.

Buy a dragonhide full plate +1 wilded (Cost around 19000).
Buy darkwood large shield +1 wilded (Cost around 16000).

Dire Bear form:
AC: 10+1(dex)+7(natural_armor)+4(NW_natural_ armor)+5(barkskin)+8(full_plate)+1(plate _enchantment)+2(shield)+1(shield_enchant ment)=39+(deflection bonus [there are various sources for it be it items or spells], magic vestment for armor and shield if you can get a cleric to cast them, dex enchantment through cat's grace or similar spells/items)

If you can get access to the legendary ape form this gets a lot easier still as you do not need wilded armor and you can still wear all your items.

Sisyfos
toomre
03-30-04, 02:11 PM Thanks Sisyfos, I've been away for a while and it's nice to see some of the same wise ol' men still around.

My own thought was to go with
Druid 6/Nature's Warrior 3/Warshaper 3

I would lose access to the Dire Bear form, but the Dire Lion with the extra benefits from those 3 Warshaper levels (immunity to criticals, damage die of one size larger creature, +4 str and con, and 10' reach) makes it a fair or even advantagous exchange imo.

How valuable is DR/3 anyway? For my nature's armamant I was thinking of going with the AC bonus one (+3 at my level) and the one that gives +3 to my damage per hit.

The biggest drawback of my idea is I'd only be a 7th level druid when it comes to spellcasting.
Qaetar
03-30-04, 02:57 PM DR 3/- is based mainly on your most common opponents.

If your DM gives you single-charge power attackers it's a bit of a waste.

If you fight ranged attackers and/or two-weapon fighting dervish's, it looks much better.

I like the Dire Lion and Immunity to Criticals.

As for 7 caster levels at CL 17, all it means is that your spells should be support spells and off-focus, not offensive spells.

(Qaetar)
Sisyfos
03-30-04, 03:24 PM It's nice to see you too toomre. I suggested that NW build because he does not lose that many casterlevels and it seemed to fit your desires pretty nicely. Druid 6/Nature's Warrior 3/Warshaper 3 is hardly a druid anymore, but can be a tough nut to crack.

I think that for epic readiness the druid16/NW4 would be the best followed with druid11/NW5/WS4, both of the builds represeting almost opposite approaches to wildshaped tanking.
toomre
03-30-04, 05:28 PM I'm not sure which we'll see more of, few powerful hits, or many weak ones.

I think I'll aim for a build that ends up with Druid11/NW5/WS4. I'll worry about epic advancement if I ever get there.

If we were allowed access to Legendery animals (unfortunately they haven't made a 3.5 MM2 yet) then I would do a bunch more druid levels. The 3.5 MM doesn't give a vast range of form options as one takes more druid levels, so it's not as big a loss.
Khazra
03-31-04, 11:27 AM To go slightly off topic, can all apes use weapons & wear armour or can all apes, because u hav to be familliar with the animal & no dm can be stupid enough to show a druid a legendary animal ( there all pretty nasty)
Qaetar
03-31-04, 04:08 PM Apes do not have armor or weapons in their monster manual entry. Therefore, since they should not be an exception to the general rule of animals not being able to use armor or weapons, they should not be able to use armor or weapons with respect to the rules.

I don't see why the Legendary Ape should be an exception to this and I don't understand how any DM could allow his players to use Weapons and Armor in Wilded form with neither a Wilding Clasp nor the Wild enhancement.

(Qaetar)
Prism
03-31-04, 04:50 PM Originally posted by Qaetar
Apes do not have armor or weapons in their monster manual entry. Therefore, since they should not be an exception to the general rule of animals not being able to use armor or weapons, they should not be able to use armor or weapons with respect to the rules.

I don't see why the Legendary Ape should be an exception to this and I don't understand how any DM could allow his players to use Weapons and Armor in Wilded form with neither a Wilding Clasp nor the Wild enhancement.

(Qaetar)

As far as I am aware there are no rules that disallow animals using armour. Horses can wear barding as can any other animals trained for war. This would include apes, although only medium sized apes would allow you to keep medium sized armour when wild shaping.

As for weapons, it doesn't say that animals can't use them but obviously most animals don't have opposable thumbs. The ape form solves this as does the opposable weapon enchantment

Simply put, animals don't automatically get proficiency with armour and weapons but it doesn't stop them using them
toomre
03-31-04, 05:35 PM Well, I agree with Q here, but that's somewhat off topic, I don't have access to MM2, hence no Legendary Ape, and the Dire Ape isn't a powerful enough form, not nearly as good as the Dire Lion and Dire Bear, despite of its opposable thumbs.

Regarding 'wild' armour; I've see it written in some threads here that a wild armour or shield's max movement rate, max dex bonus, dex check penalty, and arcane spell failure chance wouldn't apply to the wildshaped form. The technical reason given is that none of the properties (positive or negative) of the armour except for its armour and enhancement bonus continue into wildshaped form.

If one accepts that, which our DM does, would one also ignore the armour restriction on certain abilities and feats? Examples are the monk's ac bonus and the spring attack feat. One could argue that if a wizard can cast a spell in it, surely a fighter can spring attack in it. My own opinion is that arcane spell failure chance is a specific property of the armour, and hence is not carried into wildshape form, but the actual existence of the armour and the fact that it's heavy or medium, albeit in wildshaped form, and inspite its inability to hamper movement in any way, aren't its properties, ie they're not columns in the Armour and Shield table in PHB, and hence can't be ignored. Does that sound reasonable?
Sisyfos
03-31-04, 05:59 PM I've taken part in some of those threads and it seems that this question really has not been officially answered. If you are looking for a reasonable solution then the matter is different. I would suggest:
- ASF carries over
- Armor skill check penalties carry over
- Armor movement penalties carry over
- Armor bonus carries over
- Armor enchantment bonus carries over
- Wilded armor does not combine with monk unarmored AC bonus.

This way wilded armor just gives you its bonuses in your wildshaped forms (it is almost as if you wore it, but it just cannot be seen) and frankly I think that was what the enchantment was meant for. (And also as a plus side your campaigns do not get out of hand with some crazy ass 60+ ACs.)

Sisyfos
Qaetar
03-31-04, 08:16 PM Honestly, the horses wearing barding is a good point and one that should be addressed.

Being that apes are not humanoid (or of a humanoid-like form) armor specifically made for tham should cost 2x as per the Armor for Unusual Creatures rules in the Equipment section of the PH.

Therefore, since it should take extra effort to make armor for an ape, normal armor should not fit them.

It seems it would be appropriate if the character bought armor fitted for his ape form and changed into it after wildshaping then it would make sense for him to wear the armor.

(Qaetar)
Prism
03-31-04, 08:29 PM Originally posted by Qaetar
Being that apes are not humanoid (or of a humanoid-like form) armor specifically made for tham should cost 2x as per the Armor for Unusual Creatures rules in the Equipment section of the PH.
(Qaetar)

Good point, I never thought about that. I think somewhere there is and enchancement that lets you call your armour to you but I can't remember where. I could be making it up!
Qaetar
03-31-04, 08:36 PM "Called", DotF, +1 equivalent, standard action to activate, IIRC 30' range, comes on you during the turn you activate it and requires you to be a Power Ranger.

(Qaetar)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
toomre 03-30-04, 12:21 AM	Hey folks. I'd like some opinions on how to make the best 12th level druid with a focus on being a wildshaped front line tank. We're only allowed 3.5 PHB, 3.5 DMG, 3.5 MM, and CW, so the many well known druid handbooks and threads in this forum don't help me much. I've rolled: 17/16/16/15/14/11 (nice eh? almost a waste on a shapeshifter, I know) I'm allowed 88K gp of equipment no single item can be over 22K. All race, class, feat, equipment, spell, and wildshape suggestions will be appreciated, but take note of my book restrictions.
Sisyfos 03-30-04, 02:48 AM	You could go this way: Druid8/nature's_warrior4 NW: - DR3/- - Natural armor +4 (If you like, you could switch either one for fast healing.) Take heavy armor proficiency as a feat. Buy a dragonhide full plate +1 wilded (Cost around 19000). Buy darkwood large shield +1 wilded (Cost around 16000). Dire Bear form: AC: 10+1(dex)+7(natural_armor)+4(NW_natural_ armor)+5(barkskin)+8(full_plate)+1(plate _enchantment)+2(shield)+1(shield_enchant ment)=39+(deflection bonus [there are various sources for it be it items or spells], magic vestment for armor and shield if you can get a cleric to cast them, dex enchantment through cat's grace or similar spells/items) If you can get access to the legendary ape form this gets a lot easier still as you do not need wilded armor and you can still wear all your items. Sisyfos
toomre 03-30-04, 02:11 PM	Thanks Sisyfos, I've been away for a while and it's nice to see some of the same wise ol' men still around. My own thought was to go with Druid 6/Nature's Warrior 3/Warshaper 3 I would lose access to the Dire Bear form, but the Dire Lion with the extra benefits from those 3 Warshaper levels (immunity to criticals, damage die of one size larger creature, +4 str and con, and 10' reach) makes it a fair or even advantagous exchange imo. How valuable is DR/3 anyway? For my nature's armamant I was thinking of going with the AC bonus one (+3 at my level) and the one that gives +3 to my damage per hit. The biggest drawback of my idea is I'd only be a 7th level druid when it comes to spellcasting.
Qaetar 03-30-04, 02:57 PM	DR 3/- is based mainly on your most common opponents. If your DM gives you single-charge power attackers it's a bit of a waste. If you fight ranged attackers and/or two-weapon fighting dervish's, it looks much better. I like the Dire Lion and Immunity to Criticals. As for 7 caster levels at CL 17, all it means is that your spells should be support spells and off-focus, not offensive spells. (Qaetar)
Sisyfos 03-30-04, 03:24 PM	It's nice to see you too toomre. I suggested that NW build because he does not lose that many casterlevels and it seemed to fit your desires pretty nicely. Druid 6/Nature's Warrior 3/Warshaper 3 is hardly a druid anymore, but can be a tough nut to crack. I think that for epic readiness the druid16/NW4 would be the best followed with druid11/NW5/WS4, both of the builds represeting almost opposite approaches to wildshaped tanking.
toomre 03-30-04, 05:28 PM	I'm not sure which we'll see more of, few powerful hits, or many weak ones. I think I'll aim for a build that ends up with Druid11/NW5/WS4. I'll worry about epic advancement if I ever get there. If we were allowed access to Legendery animals (unfortunately they haven't made a 3.5 MM2 yet) then I would do a bunch more druid levels. The 3.5 MM doesn't give a vast range of form options as one takes more druid levels, so it's not as big a loss.
Khazra 03-31-04, 11:27 AM	To go slightly off topic, can all apes use weapons & wear armour or can all apes, because u hav to be familliar with the animal & no dm can be stupid enough to show a druid a legendary animal ( there all pretty nasty)
Qaetar 03-31-04, 04:08 PM	Apes do not have armor or weapons in their monster manual entry. Therefore, since they should not be an exception to the general rule of animals not being able to use armor or weapons, they should not be able to use armor or weapons with respect to the rules. I don't see why the Legendary Ape should be an exception to this and I don't understand how any DM could allow his players to use Weapons and Armor in Wilded form with neither a Wilding Clasp nor the Wild enhancement. (Qaetar)
Prism 03-31-04, 04:50 PM	Originally posted by Qaetar Apes do not have armor or weapons in their monster manual entry. Therefore, since they should not be an exception to the general rule of animals not being able to use armor or weapons, they should not be able to use armor or weapons with respect to the rules. I don't see why the Legendary Ape should be an exception to this and I don't understand how any DM could allow his players to use Weapons and Armor in Wilded form with neither a Wilding Clasp nor the Wild enhancement. (Qaetar) As far as I am aware there are no rules that disallow animals using armour. Horses can wear barding as can any other animals trained for war. This would include apes, although only medium sized apes would allow you to keep medium sized armour when wild shaping. As for weapons, it doesn't say that animals can't use them but obviously most animals don't have opposable thumbs. The ape form solves this as does the opposable weapon enchantment Simply put, animals don't automatically get proficiency with armour and weapons but it doesn't stop them using them
toomre 03-31-04, 05:35 PM	Well, I agree with Q here, but that's somewhat off topic, I don't have access to MM2, hence no Legendary Ape, and the Dire Ape isn't a powerful enough form, not nearly as good as the Dire Lion and Dire Bear, despite of its opposable thumbs. Regarding 'wild' armour; I've see it written in some threads here that a wild armour or shield's max movement rate, max dex bonus, dex check penalty, and arcane spell failure chance wouldn't apply to the wildshaped form. The technical reason given is that none of the properties (positive or negative) of the armour except for its armour and enhancement bonus continue into wildshaped form. If one accepts that, which our DM does, would one also ignore the armour restriction on certain abilities and feats? Examples are the monk's ac bonus and the spring attack feat. One could argue that if a wizard can cast a spell in it, surely a fighter can spring attack in it. My own opinion is that arcane spell failure chance is a specific property of the armour, and hence is not carried into wildshape form, but the actual existence of the armour and the fact that it's heavy or medium, albeit in wildshaped form, and inspite its inability to hamper movement in any way, aren't its properties, ie they're not columns in the Armour and Shield table in PHB, and hence can't be ignored. Does that sound reasonable?
Sisyfos 03-31-04, 05:59 PM	I've taken part in some of those threads and it seems that this question really has not been officially answered. If you are looking for a reasonable solution then the matter is different. I would suggest: - ASF carries over - Armor skill check penalties carry over - Armor movement penalties carry over - Armor bonus carries over - Armor enchantment bonus carries over - Wilded armor does not combine with monk unarmored AC bonus. This way wilded armor just gives you its bonuses in your wildshaped forms (it is almost as if you wore it, but it just cannot be seen) and frankly I think that was what the enchantment was meant for. (And also as a plus side your campaigns do not get out of hand with some crazy ass 60+ ACs.) Sisyfos
Qaetar 03-31-04, 08:16 PM	Honestly, the horses wearing barding is a good point and one that should be addressed. Being that apes are not humanoid (or of a humanoid-like form) armor specifically made for tham should cost 2x as per the Armor for Unusual Creatures rules in the Equipment section of the PH. Therefore, since it should take extra effort to make armor for an ape, normal armor should not fit them. It seems it would be appropriate if the character bought armor fitted for his ape form and changed into it after wildshaping then it would make sense for him to wear the armor. (Qaetar)
Prism 03-31-04, 08:29 PM	Originally posted by Qaetar Being that apes are not humanoid (or of a humanoid-like form) armor specifically made for tham should cost 2x as per the Armor for Unusual Creatures rules in the Equipment section of the PH. (Qaetar) Good point, I never thought about that. I think somewhere there is and enchancement that lets you call your armour to you but I can't remember where. I could be making it up!
Qaetar 03-31-04, 08:36 PM	"Called", DotF, +1 equivalent, standard action to activate, IIRC 30' range, comes on you during the turn you activate it and requires you to be a Power Ranger. (Qaetar)