Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OzyBurrfoot 06-09-06, 01:36 PM	So I'm trying an experiement in an upcoming game, the basis being that the characters cannot multi-class and cannot take prestige classes. So with 14 levels of any one core class from the following lists, what builds would you make? Oh and also the only races allowed are those without racial Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer, Wizard Artificer, Swashbuckler, Spirit Shaman, Favored Soul, Warmage, Warlock, Spelltheif, Scout, Marshall Beguiler, Dragon Shaman, Duskblade, Knight Psion, Psychic Warrior, Soulknife, Wilder, Ardent, Divine Mind, Erudite, Lurk Archivist, Dread Necromancer Incarnate, Soulborn, Totemist The variants allowed are: alternate alignment Paladins, non-spellcasting Paladins & Rangers, wizards specialists, and any of the variants from PHB2.
K 06-09-06, 02:02 PM	So I'm trying an experiement in an upcoming game, the basis being that the characters cannot multi-class and cannot take prestige classes. So with 14 levels of any one core class from the following lists, what builds would you make? Oh and also the only races allowed are those without racial Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer, Wizard Artificer, Swashbuckler, Spirit Shaman, Favored Soul, Warmage, Warlock, Spelltheif, Scout, Marshall Beguiler, Dragon Shaman, Duskblade, Knight Psion, Psychic Warrior, Soulknife, Wilder, Ardent, Divine Mind, Erudite, Lurk Archivist, Dread Necromancer Incarnate, Soulborn, Totemist The variants allowed are: alternate alignment Paladins, non-spellcasting Paladins & Rangers, wizards specialists, and any of the variants from PHB2. Beguilers are so good that I actually feel embarassed playing one. You contribute to the party on and off the fiield of combat, about 60% of the great Wizard spells are already on your list and you can cast anything off that list spontaneously. Any party with a Beguiler in it essentially has the Beguiler as the star of the show and everyone else as the sidekicks in the stroy of how the Beguiler saves the world. If I was playing for simple screen time and character power, a Beguiler is a no-brainer at any level.
LogicNinja 06-09-06, 02:06 PM	...except in the Dungeon of Mindless Monsters And People With Mind Blank.
K 06-09-06, 02:18 PM	...except in the Dungeon of Mindless Monsters And People With Mind Blank. I honestly don't know what you're talking about. Sure, the Beguiler has all the awesome charms, but they also have all the awesome battlefield control spells as well - and they can cast all of it spontaneously. So if the monstrous spiders or golems show up, you just switch to images and solid fogs - you still win. In fact, you now win automatically instead of having it just be very likely. Against enemies with minds, you charm them and then you "take 1" on your diplomacy check and make the DC 20 required to make them willing to go out of their way on your behalf. Against enemies with no minds, you simplyjuggle them with the battlefield control spells that you also know for free. And against non-creature opposition, you use the detection spells that you also have for free to simply bypass it all. And since you can use any of your spells interchangeably, you never have spells that aren't making you win taking up space. The Beguiler, properly played, is so crazy good that she just isn't even fair. Even the opponents that are listed as beig dangerous to her simply aren't.
LogicNinja 06-09-06, 02:20 PM	...just how good are images and solid fogs against golems (or undead)?
K 06-09-06, 02:24 PM	...just how good are images and solid fogs against golems (or undead)? You only get a save against a figment spell if you touch it or search the area. Mindless creatures don't have an intelligence score and can't search an area, so they have to successfully touch the figment to even get a save. Therefoe, solid fog + ventriloquism keeps a golem occupied indefinitely. Mix in a DOT effect of your choice and you are "teh win". You don't even have to roll dice.
LogicNinja 06-09-06, 02:59 PM	Okay, that's pretty awesome. *steals tactic for when he finally plays a full caster* Doesn't slow the game down as much as the Thousand-Attacks-of-Tripping-Disarming-Opportunity chain-fighter, either.
ksbsnowowl 06-09-06, 03:52 PM	Mix in a DOT effect of your choice and you are "teh win". Forgive my ignorance; what is a DOT effect?
Hanniball 06-09-06, 03:54 PM	C.o.D.ZILLA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111 Sorry...clerics and druids are just so good... oh, and DOT is Damage Over Time
LogicNinja 06-09-06, 04:10 PM	Now I'm picturing a gestalt cleric//druid. Persistently buffed legendary ape wearing its equipment and wielding a spiked chain it trips everyone with.
ksbsnowowl 06-09-06, 04:11 PM	oh, and DOT is Damage Over TimeMuch appreciated.
EldonG 06-09-06, 04:16 PM	Warlocks are pretty insane, and utterly shine at 14th level...
Endar45 06-09-06, 05:00 PM	My choice of single class would depend on the role I chose based on what I felt like playing and/or what the party needed. For example, if the party needs a primary healer, then I'd most certainly go full cleric. Good melee (excellent with buffs), good nuking (excellent with spell compendium), excellent healing (perfect healing with a few feats such as augment healing), and excellent party support (near-perfect with spell compendium). The spontaneous curing feature lets you prepare spells for semi-likely encounters, then spend the first cures using those up if it looks like things are taking a different path. Very cool. If there won't be another spellcaster and I still wanted healing, an Archivist would expand utility while still allowing for powerful healing based on tactics and feat choice. If the party needs a primary tank, the PHB II Fighter (excellent tanking) and/or Knight (near-perfect tanking, IMO) would fill that role nicely. Better feats than previously help the fighter achieve his role more easily. Class features help the knight keep monster attentions focused on the walking tin can instead of the caster in pajamas. If the party needed damage output with no PrCs, I would probably shy away from my normal choices. Sorcerers, my favorite arcane caster, suffer from a lack of class features and feats, something that a good PrC helps compensate for while maintaining the spellcasting mechanics. My second choice, the warmage, is slightly better at damage output, but suffers from even more tunnel vision without adding a PrC to help expand his capabilities to cover more life-threatening situations. Instead, I would likely lean towards the warlock. Decent class features, nearly limitless blasting, and a selection of some of the most useful "spells" make this class fantastic. Add some skill focus and a few spell like metatamagics and you get flexiblity and utility in one class while retaining most of the punch. It's hard to find a good PrC for a warlock anyway... :p As an aside, I would also consider a Psion, especially if there was another spellcaster to fill in some of the gaps in their manafestations-known list. For a skill monkey, I'd pick from among three classes based on who else was with us and what combat style I felt like at the time. Campaign flavor also plays a large part in my selection of a skill monkey. Essentially, I favor rogues, but I would easily switch to ranger if those skills were needed and another rogue was present. If it looked like the group needed one, a scout would also be a good choice. If all of the primary roles were well taken care of, I'd lean towards the Duskblade as a single-class implimentation of my favorite class-type: hybrid fighter/arcanist. That said, a Druid would also be a powerful jack-of-all-trades choice with the ability to backup heal, buff, melee, and belt out spell damage. Most of the others I wouldn't avoid, but would be far less interested in playing. In particular, I have a great loathing of artificers. I have yet to see one who reins in his class's ability to avoid overshadowing other players. That said, they are one of the ultimate generalists, have similar potential for game ruination as most CoD's (though CoD's often seem to be far less likely to super-optimize and stomp through a campaign's wreckage), and would round out any group well. Just my 2cp. Note that I prefer a class who has some spellcasting ability (or UMD), so I tend to shy away from pure melee/ranged classes (and thus my opinion is worth far less regarding those roles).
FiestFan 06-09-06, 09:07 PM	Because I do not know what the rest of the party is, what your DM's preferred stat generation system is, or your play style, this is a tough question. That said, I'd end up picking a Class that excels at more than one role, if need be. First choice would probably be Ranger, who can fulfil the Tank role, can scout, be a Skill-Monkey, and a secondary caster-type with decent healing and AoE spells. Second choice would likely be the Ranger's kid brother, the Scout, who gives up spellcasting for some Rogue-surrogacy. Third choice, the Lurk, combining Psionic abilities and Roguishness. Were the party in need of a Big Gun, I'd take Druid, then Cleric, then Wizard, then Psion, then Wilder.
Bard-of-all-trades 06-10-06, 11:29 AM	What about variants from Unearthed Arcana? You listed Paladins of other alignments, but what about the rest?
Endar45 06-10-06, 09:56 PM	I actually hadn't noticed the addition of those variants. With those variants included, the Warmage becomes somewhat more attractive as a single class. Without using PrC's to increase spells known (such as with Mage of the Arcane Order), the Eclectic Learning variant allows for more acceptable spell utility. Essentially he can learn more than just an evocation spell from the sorc/wiz spell list, albeit at a small level penalty. You lose the ability to learn an evocation spell at no penalty, but the warmage already has energy spells to sate most players' apetite. I believe this increased flexibility would help him compete with the innate flexibility of the warlock's choice of invocations.
Voldar_Mecorthio 06-10-06, 10:23 PM	I would recomend either monk, wizard, or psion depending on your party. Monk if you have a shortage of warriors, monk gets TONS of cool abilities and works well as a warrior. Wizard if you are lacking in arcane power, as they are the ultimate heavy artilitry. I dont like sorcerer unless there are at least 2 in a group, as they're spell selection is too small to make adicuate use of the wide array of sorcerer spells. 2 or more lets one focus on half of the schools and the other on the other half. But if you're the only arcanist, Wizard. (if you do be a sorcerer, take the metamagic variant from PHB2) Psion as an alternitive to wizard. I recomend Telepathy if you want a utility mage because of the Charm/Dominate and other mind spells, but if you're going for a blaster, Metacreativity or the Evocation one is deffinitly the disipline you should go for.