Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eldren 05-30-04, 05:41 PM	Looking for an optimized Druid build for a 15th level 3.5 Druid. The restrictions I'm working under in building this Druid are that no single magical item purchased with the 200,000 gp value a 15th level character has can cost more then 18% of that value, or 36,000 gp. My Dungeon Master does this to simulate the things the PC has acquired through their career "naturally", rather than just blowing your wad on two or three really powerful items that don't make sense if you're making a character that's presumably been adventuring regularly since 1st level. This value is raised somewhat for crafting items for oneself; at that point, when making the PC, any items crafted by that PC can be up to 22% of the total value of the PC at its level; in this case, that's 44,000 gp. Here's what I have come up with. If anyone has any suggested tweaks to this PC to optimize it better (my personal preferences would, in order, be to have significantly higher save DCs for the spells, have a higher set of saving throws for the PC, and then having a higher Armor Class), I'd welcome them. If you can come up with a better optimized Druid that is completely different from the build I've done, please post it as well, as I'd love to have it. Human Druid, 15th level Str 12, Dex 16 (22 with item), Con 17, Int 14, Wis 21 (26 with item), Cha 17 HP 132 AC 32 Feats: Craft Wondrous Item, Natural Spell, Augment Summoning, Combat Casting, Quicken Spell, Maximize Spell, Empower Spell Skills: Unchosen as of yet Magic Items Possessed: Leather Armor +5, Large Wooden Shield +2, Composite Longbow of Seeking +1, Ring of Evasion, Ring of Protection +4, Lens of See Invisibility, Periapt of Wisdom +6, Gloves of Dexterity +6, Scarab of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor +1 Suggestions? Any of those items which someone would recommend getting rid of in favor of something else? Welcoming as much input as people have. I know that one feat I would have taken was out of Masters of the Wild, the feat "Blindsight" (which would have removed the need for the Lenses of See Invisibility), but my Dungeon Master ruled that according to 3.5 rules, the feat would function as per Blindsense, and not Blindsight, so I skipped that. My plan is to make this guy a combination summoner/direct damage dealer, so that's going to color the spell selections the character makes each day. Recommendations?
Sisyfos 05-30-04, 06:37 PM	Have you read the Druid's handbook by Yekoj. There is a link to it in my signature by the name HB_Druids. I think it will answer most of your questions. Sisyfos
Snow Savant 05-30-04, 07:31 PM	I'd be glad to help you, Eldren. I just made a 10th level Druid build for a friend of mine the other day that is a highly optimized, multi-tasking Druid. The key to the Druid at that level is combinatorial mechanics regarding wildshaping, feat selection, and spell selection. As it is at 15th level, you should hands down be the most powerful and versatile character in your party - even if you have a tricked-out Cleric or Wizard build. Before we start, what books do you have access to? Also, what's your alignment, campaign setting (custom, FRCS, Greyhawk, Freeport?), party composite (details on what your friend's build consist of), and current DM adventuring venue (dungeon, underdark, forests, urban, etc.)? Tailoring your Druid to these parameters is extremely important and extremely smart. One thing off the bat, your stats are extremely out of synch. You'll never need to be in human form again. So STR, DEX, & CON should all be 8 or lower. Don't worry about communicating with your party, there are a bunch of solutions to mitigate wildshape communication concerns. Your WIS, INT, & CHA stats should be where all your point buy points go into. And yes, a high CHA and INT are *excellent* for a Druid. Also, I'll advising a rehaul of your feats as well. As Sisyfos said, Yekoj's Handbook is a good starting reference point. Keep in mind though, it does not have a lot of the current power-tech in it for Druids, and is missing some information from current releases that have strong Druid-friendly material (i.e. PGtF, CD, etc.). I sure hope you can use those releases, because there is som fabulous stuff in there. XO, Snow :cloud9:
fergsta2 05-30-04, 08:25 PM	Snow, as I said in the other thread, we are going to revamp the 15 levels of my druid friend, can you post the build ideas you have? Thanks much!
Eldren 05-30-04, 08:44 PM	SnowSavant: Thanks for your excellent questions. In order: In general, my Dungeon Master is really open when it comes to books, including materials from third-party d20 publishers. Forgotten Realms material is open to me, which means The Player's Guide to Faerun is available, as are most of the other books that have been published. The only real caveat on that is that in general my Dungeon Master prefers to be able to look at the description of a feat or ability before giving the final okay on it, but generally speaking, he's pretty lenient on that sort of thing. As for the books I personally have access to (i.e., the books I can reference on the spot), I have the Core Rulebooks, the Complete Warrior, the Draconomicon, the Book of Vile Darkness, the Book of Exalted Deeds, the existing classbooks (haven't purchased The Complete Divine yet, but have already ascertained from my DM that the version of Miasma I'll have access to is the 6th level spell, and not the 4th level version from Masters of the Wild), the Expanded Psionics Handbook, the Manual of the Planes, the Epic Level Handbook, Magic of Faerun, Ghostwalk, Oriental Adventures, and the book from Mongoose Publishing, "Ultimate Feats" (which is hit and miss, since many of the "new" feats in that book are nothing more than class abilities from the Core classes that they made into feats so someone can have a fully-customized PC without actually technically ignoring the class-system, but functionally making a classless character). In general, I can access other books as really needed. The campaign world is a homebrew. My Druid is aligned Chaotic Neutral. As far as the stats go, we don't use point-buy, we use dice, with the accepted common method being 5d6 drop the lowest, and arrange to taste. So the stats that I have are the ones I have to work with. :) We're going to have to work within those parameters. As for speech, I can see your point; 3.0 assumed that a Druid could still speak while wildshaped, if the text in Masters of the Wild is any indication, but it seems that was changed in 3.5. No problem; I don't plan on wildshaping for melee very often; more often for reconnaisance, most likely, since I want the majority of this Druid's combative input to be from direct-damage magic and summoned creatures. We're going to need the summoner, too, since our existing summoner, a Psion (Shaper), has left (the player is a college student and is heading back up to his native Canada for the summer; he'll be back in October). As for the party composition, it stands currently at a twinked-out Psychic Warrior (who's managed to get his regular Armor Class up to somewhere around 69), a 19th level Cleric of Olidammara, along with his 17th level Cleric cohort (also of Olidammara, natch), a Wizard, and now my Druid. Those are the core of our group, because those are the players that are reliably at each session. Rotating players will include a Paladin/Kensai and a Bladesinger. I was playing a Paladin/Knight of the Chalice, but she died in the last session this past Saturday night, and I decided that instead of bringing her back, I was more intrigued with the notion of playing a high-level Druid. In addition, she was one of two Lawful-aligned members of a party that calls itself the Paragons of Chaos, and she just didn't ideologically fit in very well with the party, so the choice of a Druid would probably fit in better; one reason I wound up going with Chaotic Neutral was that I wanted someone Chaotic aligned, but realized that a Druid had to have some aspect of Neutrality in their alignment, so that just about decided on the alignment of Chaotic Neutral right there. So there are the answers to your questions. Fire away with your assistance. :) And in advance, thanks!
Eldren 05-31-04, 01:57 PM	:bump:
Snow Savant 05-31-04, 07:59 PM	Str 12, Dex 16 (22 with item), Con 17, Int 14, Wis 21 (26 with item), Cha 17 Okay, let's re-allocate these since they are "written in stone". STR = 12 DEX = 14 CON = 16 INT = 17 WIS = 18 (+3 Level Up) = 21 CHA = 17 Your 3 highest scores are your mental stats. You get 7 skill ranks per level here. And your Handle Animal, Diplomacy, & Wild Empathy scores will all be impressive. Definitely crank up your Diplomacy ranks if the 2 Clerics chose not to. Even so, 2 diplomats in a party is never a bad thing. When in human form, at least your CON will make you a bit more robust. I don't plan on wildshaping for melee very often; more often for reconnaisance, most likely, since I want the majority of this Druid's combative input to be from direct-damage magic and summoned creatures. Still, you should *always* be wildshaped and casting via Natural Spell. If only for the reason that you can cast considerably boost your STR/DEX/CON into a more efficient and durable bi-pedal caster form. Look at the Legendary Ape and Vine Horror. Even more impressive than that is if you take the Exalted Wildshaping feat, you can be either of those forms *with* the Celestial template tacked onto it for free. Meaning you get 60' Darkvision, DR 10/Magic, Acid/Cold/Electricity Resistance 10, SR 20, Natural Weapons are Magic-aligned, & Smite Evil 1/day for 15 points. Not to mention the ability to shift into a Unicorn (for more healing), Blink Dog (blink!), & Shadow Asp (ultimate stealth!). Your 4 paths to communicating with your party mates is: You and another party member "buy" Drow Sign Language. Have the mage and/or cleric cast Rary's Telepathic Bond (links 4 people) each day for 15 hours ...or Lesser Telepathic Bond to link 2 people. Buy a Torc of Animal Speech from the MotW. I want the majority of this Druid's combative input to be from direct-damage magic and summoned creatures. Cool! You need the following feat chain - Spell Focus: Conjuration, Aug. Summoning, & Rashemi Elemental Summoning. SF: Conj is not as useless as you think. Use it with Arc of Lightning, Wall of Stone (imprison version), Fire Seeds, Drown, Rushing Waters, Quill Blast, Obedient Avalanche, etc. If you get the Rapid Spell feat (CD) for your summons, you can spontaneously convert your normal spells into standard-action summons (and thereby Quicken Spell legal). Why? Because at 16th level, you can wildshape into an Immoth and make all your spells into Ice Runes each morning - meaning all your spells are effectively free action Quickens. Which gives you no reason to not structure your entire build around being a Shillelagh/Spikes-armed "Club Druid" since spellcasting now does not cost any actions. Total Feats? How about this: HU = Spell Focus: Conjuration 01 = Augment Summoning 03 = Extend Spell (Creeping Cold!, Buffs) 06 = Natural Spell 09 = Rashemi Elemental Summoning 12 = Energy Substitution: Sonic 15 = Exalted Wildshape The order is not important since you are starting at 15th level. The only reason I chose Energy Sub is that you stated you wanted to be a blaster spellcaster type. Hence, Sonic for circumventing the tons of resistances/immunities that 15th level monsters all seem to have. Remember, at this level, you can cast SNA-8 to get 2-5 Air Elementals with the Orglash template who can each cast "3" Cone of Colds for 15d6 damage. Nice. As well as getting 2-5 Oreads who can each cast an Earthquake spell. If you wish, think of adding the Outsider feat so your "A Thousand Faces" can give you crazy forms like the Ravid, Lesser Xorn, etc. When wildshaping, remember that en route to a non-animal form you first go to an Animal form. That's when you cast Nature's Favor on yourself for a +7 Luck Bonus to your combat rolls. You don't need Spell Penetration and GSP, because you are starting at 15th level and you can load up on a bunch of cheapo-cheap Karma Beads that each give you an unnamed +4 caster levels to your spells - and all are stackable. You don't need the Blindsight feat from MotW either. Your Embrace the Wild spell from MotW will give you 120' blindsight for 10 minutes/level (2.5 hours @ 15th level, 5 hours with Extend Spell lesser metamagic rod) "simulating" a Desmodu Hunting Bat (FF or MM2). Skills? Spot & Listen should be amped up. You are casting Forestfold each day right? +20 to your Hide and Move Silently skills. Making you as good as or better than most Rogues at the scouting role (augment that with cheapo Cloak/Boots of Elvenkind). Amp up Survival and use your Wildshape or Embrace the Wild spell to use Scent and/or Track to make you the best tracker in the game. Knowledge:Nature, Handle Animal, Diplomacy - allocate ranks where you feel appropriate. All are great, although Handle Animal can be stopped at with 5-8 ranks. Spellwise, get Creeping Cold and Extend it! Fire of Purity from CD is awesome when in melee form. Especially if it converted to Sonic damage. :smirk: Gotta run ... perhaps more later. Hope this helps. I'm without books at the moment, so I hope I got dotted all my I's and crossed all my T's. XO, Snow :cloud9:
Eldren 05-31-04, 11:00 PM	It's.... mind boggling. :) You mentioned a lot of stuff I'm blatantly unfamiliar with; if you wouldn't mind, would you give me source material for each of the creatures, feats, spells and items you mentioned? "Exalted Wildshape" isn't an option, because the character isn't Good aligned, and thus can't take an Exalted feat. This removes some of your suggestions, such as the unicorn. I was hoping it had the animal subtype, but it's a magical beast, not an animal. :( However, upon looking at "Exalted Wildshape", it seems as though a switch to Neutral Good might not cause TOO many problems... Rashemi Elemental Summoning... this sounds like something specific to a campaign setting. Where's it from? Rashemen... Forgotten Realms? What book is it from? I might have trouble justifying it to my Dungeon Master; then again, possibly not. He can be really open about some things, and really peculiar about other things. Recommendations for alternates? That's all I can think of at the moment; I don't have Complete Divine, or the Player's Guide to Faerun, or Unapproachable East (is that where you got Rashemi Elemental Summoning from?), so I'm going to have to attempt to acquire those so I have something to show my Dungeon Master when I put the appropriate feats on the character sheet; plus, I'd like to get access to a couple of the spells from The Complete Divine that you mentioned. Thanks for your continuing help!
SolitudeSeraph 05-31-04, 11:39 PM	Rashemi Elemental Summoning is from Unapproachable East, whenever you summon an air or earth elemental you may summon 2 types of monsters (orglash and thomil which are listed in the same book)
crossfire177 06-01-04, 02:37 AM	Where is the Immoth from??
Dracophile 06-01-04, 04:32 AM	Lots of great suggestions so far. Though I'm not sure the Nature's Favor/Mask of a Thousand Faces trick works. The Mask ability can only be used if a Druid is in his/her normal form.
Maestro Findail 06-01-04, 06:33 AM	Immoth is from MM 2, but the Ice Runes is a spell like ability. You do not get this with wild shape. That said, Vine Horror is a nice shape to be in. Advance it to huge size for 34 str and 27 con while remaining in a humoidish form that could wear and use items. Your Dex will be horrible, but hey life cant be perfect. Other good plant shapes are Ironmaw and Octopus Tree. Ironmaws and Octopus Trees still have their tree shape so not as much item use going on, but they are both very nasty in a fight. Ironmaws and Vine horrors can actually speak without any item help at all. Octopus trees cannot speak, but with 8 attacks per round they dont need to say much to all the dead people. All of those plants are in the Fiend Folio. If you want something out of the Monster Manual Treeant is very nice. they have humanoid features so they could wear certain items. If plants are not your thing ( I like the immunities, and find them fun.) then check out an advanced dire bear form at lvl 17. The Dire Bear increases to huge size at that point making its Str 39, its Con 23, and Dex is lowered to 11. I have not done much research on the elemental wild shape forms. Those are all wild shape options, but you said you wanted to cast spells! Look at taking a dip in Contemplative next level. Giving you access to another domain and making you immune to disease to compliment being already immune to poison. Then go with Divine Disciple for another domain. I would suggest worshipping the god of the roads in your campaign setting and picking up the Travel and Celerity Domains. Really good spell lists and nice domain abilities. - Maestro Findail
catharz 06-01-04, 06:57 AM	Originally posted by Maestro Findail Immoth is from MM 2, but the Ice Runes is a spell like ability. You do not get this with wild shape. Thats really funny, because it says right here In addition to the normal effects of wild shape, the druid gains all the elemental’s extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities that you do ;)
jensun 06-01-04, 07:23 AM	The Immoth is not an elemental. Its still very arguable as to whether or not elemental wildshape allows you to change into an Elemental only or any creature with the Elemental Type. I would check with your GM before relying on this.
catharz 06-01-04, 07:33 AM	Originally posted by jensun The Immoth is not an elemental. Its still very arguable as to whether or not elemental wildshape allows you to change into an Elemental only or any creature with the Elemental Type. I would check with your GM before relying on this. Well, if you're allowing a druid to Wildshape it, they probably aren't using Plant or Animal wildshape ;) Of course, this feat:IMPROVED ELEMENTAL WILD SHAPE [WILD][EPIC] Prerequisites: Wis 25, ability to wild shape into an elemental. Benefit: The character’s ability to wild shape into an elemental is expanded to include all elemental creatures (not just air, earth, fire, and water elementals) of any size that the character can take when using wild shape to become an animal. The character gains all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the elemental whose form he or she takes. Normal: Without this feat, a character may only wild shape into a Small, Medium-size, or Large air, earth, fire, or water elemental. certainly indicates something about non-epic Wildshape.
RabidWeasel 06-01-04, 09:44 AM	A good argument Catharz, but I would like to point out that Plant Wild Shape is still in the epic feats section of the SRD which calls into question how well it was converted to 3.5 :)
ksbsnowowl 06-01-04, 12:00 PM	A few ideas I didn't notice anyone mention yet. Instead of +5 leather armor, look at getting a Monk's Belt. The leather armor gives you an armor bonus of 7 and costs roughly 25k. The Monk's Belt on the other hand, will give you your Wisdom Bonus +1 (in this case 9) as an unnamed bonus to AC that functions even while flat footed, and unlike armor it applies toward touch attacks. It also costs only 13K, IIRC. Although Snow's feat suggestions are good, consider taking a look at the Dragon Wildshape feat from the Draconomicon. You could take it as you 12th or 15th level feat, and it allows you to assume the form of any Medium- or Small-sized dragon, and gain its Ex and Su abilities. The nice dragon forms that my Druid tends to use include the Silver Dragon, Amethyst Dragon (MMII), and the Shadow Dragon (Draconomicon). The Silver Dragon gains resistance to cold and acid; throw up an Energy Immunity (6th level, Dracon) to negate the fire vulnerability and you're immune to three elemental types. IIRC, his breathweapon isn't bad either; 6d6 cone of cold, once every 1d4 rounds. Silver Dragons also get an Alternate Form ability as a Su ability (thus you can use it) to assume the form of any Medium-sized or smaller animal or humanoid 3 times per day. This basically allows you extra, free uses of Wildshape each day, and you retain the energy immunities in the process. One sneaky thing to do is to become a Silver Dragon, then alter form into a Dark One (FF); Dark Stalkers get +3d6 Sneak Attack as an Ex attack, thus you gain it for free. Amethyst Dragons are pretty cool; they gain fire resistance 30, and have a 6d8 line of force as a breath weapon. Shadow Dragon form is exceptionally handy. The largest form you can take gains a +19 natural armor bonus, and in shadow dragon form you are immune to Energy Drain, and in anything but full daylight you gain total concealment; a free, 50% miss chance is nice when hunting through castles and dungeons. You also have a breath weapon that inflicts negative levels on the targets. The shadow dragon has an 80 ft land speed, and pretty much all the winged dragon forms you can assume have a 150 ft fly speed. Also, IIRC, Frightful Presence and Spell Resistance are either Ex or Su abilities, so in young adult form you gain a Frightful Presence (DC 22) and SR 20. Dragon Wildshape may not fit with your character, but I've found it to be very useful.
Dirty Dan the Laundry Man 06-01-04, 12:24 PM	One sneaky thing to do is to become a Silver Dragon, then alter form into a Dark One (FF); Dark Stalkers get +3d6 Sneak Attack as an Ex attack, thus you gain it for free. per the A Thousand Faces ability, you can only alter self from your "normal form". So I dont think you can do this. also, Alter Self does not allow you to gain (Ex) special attacks or special qualities (blindsense, LLV, scent, etc.). And Dark Stalker's sneak attack is clearly marked as (Ex). :( your other suggestions are pretty cool.
catharz 06-01-04, 12:28 PM	Originally posted by RabidWeasel A good argument Catharz, but I would like to point out that Plant Wild Shape is still in the epic feats section of the SRD which calls into question how well it was converted to 3.5 :) Plant Wildshape is still beneficial to characters who have dipped in Shifter or Druid/Contemplatives. But I see your point.
Maestro Findail 06-01-04, 01:12 PM	Well then I stand corrected. I dont have my books with me at work, and havn't played a druid of any signifigant level. I was unaware of different abilities being transfered from the different types of wild shape. Are you sure that druids can assume any creature with the elemental type? I thought it was only the pure elementals from the MM. The ones under the elemental entry. *Edit* You need a rock solid case in order to do something like the above. Any DM that cares anything for game balance will thow that out given any possible opportunity. All your spells as free actions without modifying their spell slot level is crazy powerful. *Edit* - Maestro Findail
fergsta2 06-01-04, 01:58 PM	Originally posted by Dirty Dan the Laundry Man per the A Thousand Faces ability, you can only alter self from your "normal form". So I dont think you can do this. Yeah, I don't think you can do this, which sorta makes sense, and balances out the class somewhat.
fergsta2 06-01-04, 02:05 PM	Originally posted by Dirty Dan the Laundry Man per the A Thousand Faces ability, you can only alter self from your "normal form". So I dont think you can do this. Yeah, I don't think you can do this, which sorta makes sense, and balances out the class somewhat.
jensun 06-01-04, 09:01 PM	Originally posted by Snow Savant When wildshaping, remember that en route to a non-animal form you first go to an Animal form. That's when you cast Nature's Favor on yourself for a +7 Luck Bonus to your combat rolls. Snow, can you please point me to a FAQ or page reference that supports this working. As far as I can tell yes you can cast the spell while in animal form. Once you change the spells duration continues but as you arent an animal anymore you no longer gain the benefit of it. I accept that this may not be the correct interpretation and am prepared to be proved wrong but I would like to see the basis for your advice. Cheers
Eldren 06-01-04, 10:30 PM	The wording on the elemental wildshape uses the term "elemental", and not "creature with the elemental type", so I'd figure that it ought to be taken at face value, and that a high-level Druid can only wildshape into an actual elemental. This, however, is still a mighty-nice ability. I hadn't thought about the feat "Dragon Wildshape". I really need to start looking at all my books to see what feats are really good for a Druid. The more I'm looking at it, the more I'm realizing that if I wear a suit of Ironwood Wild Fullplate +2, I'd be sitting pretty at an Armor Class of 39 as a shadow dragon, and that isn't even counting other magical items to enhance my Armor Class... With the use of the feat "Natural Spell", there's really no reason for my Druid to ever assume his natural form, other than to give it a rest after he's used up the number of hours per level that he has. But since each use, at this point, is going to last for 15 hours, there's never going to be a reason to be in my normal form. I won't be able to use the wildshapes up in a day before they replenish themselves for the following day. You guys rock; please, keep the ideas coming!
ksbsnowowl 06-02-04, 12:06 PM	Originally posted by Dirty Dan the Laundry Man per the A Thousand Faces ability, you can only alter self from your "normal form". So I dont think you can do this. also, Alter Self does not allow you to gain (Ex) special attacks or special qualities (blindsense, LLV, scent, etc.). And Dark Stalker's sneak attack is clearly marked as (Ex). :( your other suggestions are pretty cool. To Dirty Dan and Fergsta2, I thought I had explained this well enough, but perhaps I did not. I am not talking about the Druid's Thousand Faces ability; I am talking about the Silver Dragon's 'Alternate Form' Supernatural Ability. If you look up the Silver Dragon in the 3.5 MM, you will find the following entry: Alternate Form (Su): A silver dragon can assume any animal or humanoid form or Medium size or smaller as a standard action three times per day. This ability functions as a polymorph spell cast on itself at its caster level, except that the dragon does not regain hit points for changing form and can only assume the form of an animal or humanoid. The dragon can remain in its animal or humanoid form until it chooses to assume a new one or return to its natural form. So, we see that it functions as polymorph, not alter self. Now, look up the Alternate Form ability in the front of the MM, and you find this:Alternate Form (Su): A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. This ability works much like the polymorph spell, except that the creature is limited to the forms specified, and does not regain any hit points for changing its form. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature: —The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. —The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its original form. —The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form. —The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form. —The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or supernatural attacks of its new form. —The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. —The creature retains its hit points and save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores. —The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components. —The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.Emphases mine. So, as you can see, when using a dragon's Alternate Form ability to assume the form of a Dark One, you do gain the Ex attacks, and thus Sneak Attack. Although not as nasty as an Ancane Trickster, using Flame Blade or Produce Flame to gain touch attack sneak attacks can be really nice (especially inside the cloud produced from your Eversmoking Bottle; you should have the Blindsight feat, allowing you to function perfectly fine within the smoke.) Edit: Also wanted to add that you still retain the dragon forms special qualities (such as water breathing or cloud walking). Substitute in an Obscuring Mist instead of the eversmoking bottle, and you can use cloud walking in the fog it creates. So, in addition to gaining sneak attack, you can actually stand above them in the mist, making it even harder for them to figure out where you are and target you.
Snow Savant 06-02-04, 12:40 PM	The wording on the elemental wildshape uses the term "elemental", and not "creature with the elemental type", so I'd figure that it ought to be taken at face value, and that a high-level Druid can only wildshape into an actual elemental. This, however, is still a mighty-nice ability. By the rules as written, the Druidic elemental wildshape would specifically state that primary type "Elemental" if thats what it was intended to emulate. The loose use of the elemental verbiage allows wildshaping into the a primary type or subtype elemental. And there is nothing in the rules that explicitly state that that is not true. So yes, you can assume the form of a Lesser Xorn, Thoqque, or Immoth once you gain access to elemental wildshaping. I have not read Skip Williams polymorphing diatribe on the primary WotC page, but if he stated something to the effect that this contradicts the PHB RAW, I'm all ears.. Snow, can you please point me to a FAQ or page reference that supports this working. As far as I can tell yes you can cast the spell while in animal form. Once you change the spells duration continues but as you arent an animal anymore you no longer gain the benefit of it. I accept that this may not be the correct interpretation and am prepared to be proved wrong but I would like to see the basis for your advice. If you are say, a Black Bear, and have Nature's Favor cast on you, the spell accepts you as a legal target and will run out its duration on you, regardless if you change primary type or subtype. There are no rules that I have seen in the PHB or DMG that states you would see a cessation of a spell's duration from such an event. The spell's triggering was legal at the inception, and that's the only thing the spell cares about. ** Also, I concur with KSBSSnowOwl, the Dragon Wildshaping feat is extremely effective. XO, Snow :cloud9:
ksbsnowowl 06-02-04, 01:20 PM	Originally posted by jensun can you please point me to a FAQ or page reference that supports this working. As far as I can tell yes you can cast the spell while in animal form. Once you change the spells duration continues but as you arent an animal anymore you no longer gain the benefit of it. Wanted to add one other thing Snow didn't mention in her response to this. When you wildshape into an elemental, if you were previously in animal form, you would still be a legal target. From the Druid's Wild shape entry:At 16th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into [an] ... elemental... She also gains the elemental's feats for as long as she maintains the wild shape, but she retains her own creature type.If you wildshape into an animal, your creature type is animal. If you then shift directly to an elemental form, your type is still animal, and you are a legal target for Animal Growth, etc.
Snow Savant 06-02-04, 01:46 PM	Correct regarding SnowOwl's addendum. Each wildshape "use" runs its full duration, even if overlayed by a subsequent wildshape into a different shape. So yes, you can accumulate subtypes going say, from Human, to Dire Ape, to Vine Horror. The cost *is* a hefty 2 wildshape usages though. But its entirely legal to cast Animal Growth on yourself via this sequential path once you get into Vine Horror form. Add on Spikes spell to your inherent VH attacks (vines are more wood than plants), and things start to get crazy. Especially considering the fact that you are a Large-size Plant, with tons of immunities, speaking capability (a problem with animal shapes), and spike-augmented natural weaponry. Stylin'!
jensun 06-02-04, 02:12 PM	Originally posted by Snow Savant By the rules as written, the Druidic elemental wildshape would specifically state that primary type "Elemental" if thats what it was intended to emulate. The loose use of the elemental verbiage allows wildshaping into the a primary type or subtype elemental. And there is nothing in the rules that explicitly state that that is not true. It is however just as easy to argue the alternative view. Elemental Wildshape allows you to turn into a small, medium or large elemental (small e) (air, earth, fire or water). An Immoth is none of those. It is an Immoth, a creature with the Elemental Type (capital E). As such it is not a valid choice for Elemental Wildshape. Of course the other argument is as equally valid using the RAW. This simply falls into one of those grey areas overlooked by the devlopers which is decided on a case by case basis. I know I wouldnt allow a 16th level Druid to have all of their spells quickened for free, would you? Originally posted by Snow SavantThere are no rules that I have seen in the PHB or DMG that states you would see a cessation of a spell's duration from such an event. The spell's triggering was legal at the inception, and that's the only thing the spell cares about. ctually this issue isnt dealt with at all in the magic chapter. The closest I have come to a reference is the PHB page 172, Combining Magical Effects section where it talks about one effect making another irrelevant. As such it remains up in the air and is likely to be decided on a case by case basis. Originally posted by ksbsnowowl Wanted to add one other thing Snow didn't mention in her response to this. When you wildshape into an elemental, if you were previously in animal form, you would still be a legal target. quote: It is fairly clear that the reference to retaining your type in the desciption is referring to your original type Originally posted by Snow Savant Add on Spikes spell to your inherent VH attacks (vines are more wood than plants), Spikes only affects wooden weapons. In the same way that you cant GMW the Monks fists you cant Spikes the Vines arms. Even if you could its more than arguable that a Vine is *not* made of wood. At the end of the day lots of these tactics are on the grey and fuzzy edge of the RAW. The rules can be interpreted either way and inevitably will be by different GM's. These suggestions really should come with a healthy *check with your GM before using* tag.
Snow Savant 06-02-04, 02:33 PM	Elemental Wildshape allows you to turn into a small, medium or large elemental (small e) (air, earth, fire or water). An Immoth is none of those. It is an Immoth, a creature with the Elemental Type (capital E). As such it is not a valid choice for Elemental Wildshape. Which goes back to, where in the PHB/DMG does it states there is differentiation between small-e and capital-E typing/subtyping? It doesn't. And the game designers were fully aware that elemental creatures like Thoqqua and Lesser Xorn existed side-by-side with the so-called "true" elementals, yet they chose not to differentiate or isolate the "true" elementals within the wildshaping rules criteria. The designers had the option of limiting the elemental wildshape pool, but they chose not to. A grey area? Perhaps. Perhaps not, in this specific case. I know I wouldnt allow a 16th level Druid to have all of their spells quickened for free, would you? It's the DM's option to house rule whenever he or she would like. The closest I have come to a reference is the PHB page 172, Combining Magical Effects section where it talks about one effect making another irrelevant. As such it remains up in the air and is likely to be decided on a case by case basis. Unfortunately, wildshaping throws a curveball into the CME ajudication by adding a potentially complex set of typing/subtyping mechanics into the mix. Nowhere in the rules is this covered. The DM's and Rules Gurus I have access to locally agreed with my original assessment. Spikes only affects wooden weapons. In the same way that you cant GMW the Monks fists you cant Spikes the Vines arms. Even if you could its more than arguable that a Vine is *not* made of wood. Some vines are indeed more wooden than fibrous. My folks have trees with 3" thick vines wrapped around them and hanging from the branches that are stiff as wood and require some muscular sawing to sever them. The definition of "wood" is also nebulous unfortunately... XO, Snow :cloud9:
Eldren 06-02-04, 11:41 PM	Just wanted to thank everyone in this thread, particularly SnowSavant, for their input. Based on information I've received here and in a similar thread on another message board, I've chosen to go with an AC-intensive build by staying in Shadow Dragon form the majority of the time (through using "Dragon Wildshape"), and depending on summoned elementals (which will, of course, be enhanced) and direct-damage magic to handle my combat input (plus the occasional breath weapon, since my party usually has Death Ward up most of the time...). Of course, once I get elemental wildshape, I might consider that trick of wildshaping into an animal and then directly into an elemental, so that I maintain the animal type, but that might be a bit too much twinkery even for my liberal and understanding Dungeon Master. :evil: Nonetheless, thanks so much to everyone who's given awesome input into this thread.