Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CygnusDarius 05-12-06, 09:04 PM	So a friend wants to join our party. He talked over to the DM and wanted to play an "unusual paladin". He asked for a Monk/Paladin and a few levels in Fist of Raziel. The guy's a newbie, so we'll be coaching him. I'm helping him out to make the character, and he wants it to depend on no items (he says the horse is more than enough) and though I'm trying to convince him otherwise, Vow of Poverty seems like an option for the moment. This stats are the next: Str 14 Dex 18 Con 16 Wis 18 Int 11 Cha 15 The build (at least in level/feats is like this) Monk 2/Paladin 5/Fist of Raziel 8 Feats: 1.- Sacred Vow 1.- Vow of Poverty 3.- Power Attack 6.- Ascetic Knight 9.- Two Wpn Fighting 12.- Improved Two Wpn Fighting 15.- Divine Might Monk Feats: 1.- Improved Grapple 2.- Deflect Arrows Exalted Feats from Vow of Poverty 2.- Servant of the Heavens 4.- Touch of Golden Ice 6.- Hands of a Healer 8.- Nimbus of Light 10.- Holy Radiance 12.- Stigmata 14.- Celestial Mount (???) I'm still trying to avoid him to get the Vow of Poverty, since it's very limiting. So, if he decides to ditch the feats (he hasn't done the character), which ones should he have? Right now we're playing with most books, except anything regarding FR and Eberron, and Unearthed Arcana.
PhoenixInferno 05-12-06, 09:22 PM	Prestige Paladin and Cleric levels - if you can help it, don't waste those spellcasting levels from Fist of Raziel.
CygnusDarius 05-12-06, 09:30 PM	*Sigh* Unearthed arcana is out of the question.
PhoenixInferno 05-12-06, 09:36 PM	*Sigh* Unearthed arcana is out of the question. Right now we're playing with most books, except anything regarding FR and Eberron.If you can't use Unearthed Arcana then you should say so.
CygnusDarius 05-12-06, 09:38 PM	Done. Heheh, sorry about that :( .
EldonG 05-12-06, 10:34 PM	Honestly, nowadays, *if you have access to the Spell Compendium*, taking Paladin casting levels isn't so bad for a melee character...they get some fantastic new spells. Btw, I can think of no class combination that would rock harder with VOP. We're talking crazy MAD here, after all. Monks need everything but Int and Cha, and Paladins need Cha most. ANYBODY could use a few more skill points, so throwing out Int always hurts...all that said, the combination has flavor out the ying-yang, and, built carefully, has some killer bennies... Saves will be uTtErLy nUtZ. AC should be pretty sweet, and buffable. BAB should be good, but - will he fight unarmed? Using nothing but Pally, Monk, and FoR levels, I'd expect something like: Pal5/Mnk2/For8...not much of a monk, honestly...not a strong caster, either...to be effective unarmed, I'd do at least 4 levels of Monk, if that's your route...but that utterly destroys higher level casting by 15th level...In this case, I'd look long and hard at a level of Cleric, and use FoR levels there.
CygnusDarius 05-12-06, 11:54 PM	Honestly, nowadays, *if you have access to the Spell Compendium*, taking Paladin casting levels isn't so bad for a melee character...they get some fantastic new spells. Btw, I can think of no class combination that would rock harder with VOP. We're talking crazy MAD here, after all. Monks need everything but Int and Cha, and Paladins need Cha most. ANYBODY could use a few more skill points, so throwing out Int always hurts...all that said, the combination has flavor out the ying-yang, and, built carefully, has some killer bennies... Saves will be uTtErLy nUtZ. AC should be pretty sweet, and buffable. BAB should be good, but - will he fight unarmed? Using nothing but Pally, Monk, and FoR levels, I'd expect something like: Pal5/Mnk2/For8...not much of a monk, honestly...not a strong caster, either...to be effective unarmed, I'd do at least 4 levels of Monk, if that's your route...but that utterly destroys higher level casting by 15th level...In this case, I'd look long and hard at a level of Cleric, and use FoR levels there. Yes, the Spell Compendium is there, and the DM is threatening (if he aproves) to use the PHB2, ans yes, he wants to fight unarmed, mostly because the monk is cool that way :) .
HobbitGuy1420 05-13-06, 12:52 AM	if the DM will allow feats from Dragon Magazine, there's a feat called Serenity in one issue (forget which at the moment) that allows a Paladin to use Wisdom to determine most of the Cha-based Paladin effects. Might help cut down on the MAD disorder somewhat.
EldonG 05-13-06, 03:59 AM	if the DM will allow feats from Dragon Magazine, there's a feat called Serenity in one issue (forget which at the moment) that allows a Paladin to use Wisdom to determine most of the Cha-based Paladin effects. Might help cut down on the MAD disorder somewhat. Nice! I gotta find that one...it'll rock for a similar build I've played with!
LogicNinja 05-13-06, 04:05 AM	Unfortunately, if you use Serenity, you'll be deprived of effective Divine Might and other divine feats, since those go off of CHA.
AZNsupermarket 05-13-06, 01:37 PM	is it okay to use Dragon Magazine or Dragon Compendium Volme 1? I would say that the feat Serenity would be right up this character's alley. The only Prereque is Divine Grace. It allows him to use his Wis instead of his Cha for divine grace, lay on hands, smite evil, and turn undead. (Dragon Magazine #306) Even if ur DM doesn't usually allow Dragon Magazine suff, I would push for this feat because ur friends a newbie. He is taking a huge hit for a character concept. This won't make him as strong as an all out monk or paladin, but at least he can make strong enough to actually help in combat. Because it's not fun when your character is really pathetic. Make Cha a dump stat. Make Wis his only mental stat. Some other fun ideas with wis being his only mental stat: make him a halfling and let him take Yondalla's Sense (wis to initiative, but you will run into multiclassing problems with being a halfling) make him a Dragonborn of Bahamut (Races of Dragon) Buomon (Planar Handbook) with the following stats: +2 wis +2 con -2 dex -2 cha and favored class monk and fighter and allowed to multiclass freely into paladin (RAW they lose their vow of silence, but thats debatable) Give him intuitive attack from BoED (wis bonus instead of str bonus to simple attacks, includes unarmed strikes) Give him Gift of Grace BoED, So he can share his wis bonus to all his saves with the rest of the party. When you're already going to take two exalted feats being a human with VoP isn't a bad idea, especially if you don't think the party will be making it very far past level 18 Besides what I said, if you want some more ideas, you might want to take a look at possibly Fist of Zuoken (Expanded Psionic Handbook) and at this thread on min/maxing a monk and pay particular attention to what they say about VoP Here's the thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=48573) I hope this helped :) EDIT: fixed a whole bunch of typos
CygnusDarius 05-14-06, 03:41 AM	The DM actually liked the Serenity feat (and yes, he accepts Dragon Compendium vol.1. Probably because it's the only one he has) and is willing to accept it. I finally convinced him to had another level of paladin instead of 8 levels in FoR (so it would be monk2/paladin6/FoR7), mostly for more hours to use his mount and more powerful unarmed strike. Funny thing though, he can fly (Celestial Aspect), though at a heavy price. I think I should've posted which books the DM uses, so here they are: The Basics (PHB, MM, DMG) The Complete Series (Except Psionics) Races of the Wild, Destiny & Stone BoED Sandstorm Spell Compendium Frostburn PHB2 (it's still "under review")